0:00

On this week's episode of Wild

0:02

Card, comedian Taylor Tomlinson explains how

0:04

you can use fear as a

0:06

motivating force. I was afraid that I

0:08

would get years down the road and go, man, I really wish

0:10

I had pursued that or I wish

0:13

I had developed this town

0:15

that might have taken me somewhere. I'm Rachel

0:18

Martin. Join us for NPR's Wild

0:20

Card Podcast, the game where cards

0:22

control the conversation. Hi,

0:25

this is Alyssa from Denver. I'm

0:27

currently on the way to the park for what

0:29

will hopefully be a long day of volleyball for

0:31

my rec league's end of season tournament. This

0:34

podcast was recorded at 12 36

0:37

p.m. Eastern time on Tuesday, June 25th,

0:39

2024. Things

0:41

may have changed by the time you hear this,

0:43

but I know that regardless of the outcome, I

0:45

will have had a fun day soaking up the

0:48

summer sunshine and enjoying time in the

0:50

park with my friends. It's

0:52

showtime, baby. I

0:57

bet it's not 97 degrees there. That's what I was going

0:59

to say. You know, volleyball sounds fun when you're not in

1:01

the midst of a heat wave. Oh, my gosh, for

1:04

real. Hey, there, it's the

1:06

NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Ashley Lopez. I

1:08

cover voting. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover

1:10

the White House. And I'm Kerry Johnson.

1:12

I cover the Justice Department. A

1:14

long running saga over the release

1:16

of U.S. government secrets is coming

1:18

to a close. Julian Assange, the

1:21

founder of WikiLeaks, has finalized a

1:23

plea deal with the United States

1:25

almost 15 years after the publication

1:27

of unredacted documents about the wars

1:29

in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kerry, before

1:31

we get to this latest news,

1:34

can you just remind me who

1:36

Assange is and what were in

1:38

these documents? Julian Assange

1:40

is a native Australian in his early

1:42

life. He was pretty prominent in that

1:44

country as a hacker. And then he

1:46

became the founder of a site called

1:48

WikiLeaks, where he fashioned himself

1:51

as a publisher of

1:53

secrets and exposes on government corruption

1:55

in the United States and around

1:57

the world. He really came to

1:59

international prominence. in 2010 with

2:01

the publication of thousands of

2:03

war reports about the wars

2:05

in Iraq and Afghanistan revealing

2:08

sensitive information about U.S.

2:11

military intelligence operations. And

2:13

maybe one of the most important

2:15

things he revealed was a video

2:18

of U.S. service people in

2:20

a helicopter shooting

2:22

civilians in Iraq, including a

2:25

Reuters photojournalist. That

2:27

was something that was of interest

2:29

to the international community and

2:31

really what Assange fashioned as

2:34

a plain old-fashioned expose of

2:36

government abuses. Yeah. Okay. So

2:39

let's get to the latest news. What was in this plea

2:41

deal that was reached? So Julian

2:44

Assange initially had been charged with 18 charges

2:48

in an indictment by a federal grand

2:51

jury in Virginia. But what

2:53

he appears to be pleading guilty

2:55

to is just one charge, a

2:57

single charge of conspiracy to obtain

2:59

and disclose information related to the

3:01

national defense. And this

3:03

relates to what the government calls

3:06

an alleged conspiracy between Assange and

3:08

the former Army private Chelsea Manning.

3:10

Manning was an intelligence analyst who wound

3:13

up getting a lot of information in

3:15

the course of her job, some of

3:17

which she smuggled out in CDs

3:19

that were labeled things like Lady Gaga.

3:22

And she was able to disclose

3:24

to Assange and WikiLeaks not just

3:26

these reports about the wars in

3:29

Iraq and Afghanistan, but also hundreds

3:31

of thousands of very sensitive State

3:33

Department cables that really outraged the

3:35

State Department and some of its

3:37

diplomatic partners around the world because

3:39

it showed some

3:42

diplomats unvarnished opinions of

3:44

its international partners. So,

3:46

Asma, what can you tell me about the

3:49

White House's involvement in all this? Well,

3:51

back in April, President Biden told

3:54

reporters that the US was, quote,

3:56

considering Australia's request to drop the

3:58

prosecution of Julian Assange. Australia

4:00

is, of course, a very close ally to

4:02

the United States and I would say an

4:04

increasingly important ally under the Biden

4:07

administration. But when I checked in with

4:09

the White House today, I was told

4:11

that this decision, this plea deal was

4:13

made by the Department of Justice and

4:15

there was, quote, no White House involvement

4:17

in the plea deal decision. That's

4:20

according to a spokesperson with the National Security Council.

4:22

Yeah. And Carrie, I guess

4:24

like a big question I have hearing all

4:26

this is like, this has been many years since

4:28

this first happened. Like why now? Like why was

4:30

this plea deal now reached? So these leaks

4:32

started coming out in 2010. What

4:35

happened is that Julian Assange kind of

4:37

had an odyssey through the international community.

4:41

Officials in Sweden initially wanted to talk

4:43

to him about a rape accusation there

4:45

and he went on the

4:47

lamb. He hid out in the

4:50

Ecuadorian embassy in London for years

4:52

and years and years until he

4:54

basically wore out his welcome there.

4:57

And when he wore out his welcome

4:59

there, British authorities came in and arrested

5:01

him as part of this extradition process

5:03

for the American charges. And

5:06

so Assange served so much time in

5:08

this British prison waiting to be extradited

5:10

that it's basically the same amount of

5:12

time he would have been sentenced to

5:14

had he been convicted in an American

5:16

court. Under the terms of this plea

5:18

deal, he's going to serve 62 months,

5:20

which he's already done in the UK. However,

5:23

he issues the plea. He's expected to

5:25

be sent home to Australia to reunite

5:27

with his wife and two kids who

5:29

were conceived while he was in that

5:31

embassy. And so he has never known

5:33

his children and his children have never

5:35

known him when he was not incarcerated.

5:38

That's how long this story goes

5:40

back. Wow. Okay. Well,

5:43

let's take a quick break and we'll talk more in a moment. This

5:46

message comes from NPR sponsor, Britbox,

5:48

streaming a new season of the

5:50

original crime thriller Blue Lights, a

5:53

harrowing, nuanced portrayal of policing in

5:55

the turbulent streets of modern Belfast.

5:57

Blue Lights, streaming at britbox.com/ NPR.

6:00

This message comes from NPR sponsor, Sotva,

6:02

who reminds you it's decision time in

6:04

America. Time to decide if you want

6:07

to continue sleeping on a worn out

6:09

mattress or if you want a better

6:11

night's sleep. Sotva crafts

6:13

mattresses to lull you to

6:15

sleep and to keep you

6:17

sleeping soundly. And they cost

6:19

a fraction of the price

6:21

of retail. Visit saaatva.com/npr to

6:23

save $200 on orders of

6:25

$1,000 or more. I'm

6:30

Rachel Martin. After hosting Morning Edition for

6:32

years, I know that the news can

6:34

wear you down. So we

6:36

made a new podcast called Wild Card.

6:38

Where a special deck of cards and

6:40

a whole bunch of fascinating guests help

6:42

us sort out what makes life meaningful.

6:44

It's part game show, part existential deep

6:46

dive, and it is seriously fun. Join

6:49

me on Wild Card, wherever you get your

6:51

podcasts, only from NPR. Untangled

6:54

is back. And this season, the

6:56

All Sides team is tackling immigration.

6:58

From the immigration court in Cleveland

7:01

to asylum seekers in Columbus, we're

7:03

unraveling all the ways Ohio is

7:05

touched by immigration. Subscribe

7:07

to Untangled from WOSU Public Media,

7:10

part of the NPR network. And

7:15

we're back. And Carrie, we should say like

7:17

the only person initially prosecuted over these documents

7:19

was the service member who turned them over.

7:22

As we talked about, Chelsea Manning and

7:25

Assange wasn't charged until the Trump administration.

7:27

Why did like the charges against Assange

7:29

take much more time? It's

7:32

a lot more complicated. Historically, the U.S.

7:34

government has a lot easier time of

7:36

things going after the government worker who

7:39

promised not to reveal national security secrets

7:41

than the person who publishes those secrets.

7:43

And in fact, in the

7:45

Obama Justice Department, they couldn't figure out how

7:48

to draw a line between what Julian Assange

7:50

did and what major news media. What major

7:52

news organizations do every day when it comes

7:54

to national security reporting. So they decided not

7:56

to charge Assange at all. Things took a

7:58

turn in the Trump administration. New

8:00

Attorney General Jeff Sessions basically

8:03

came in declaring a war on

8:05

leaks and leakers, and Assange ultimately

8:07

was charged in Virginia. But

8:11

a lot of people, including the

8:13

Committee to Protect Journalists, the Reporters'

8:15

Committee for Freedom of the Press,

8:17

and the ACLU, have said that

8:19

charging Assange really was a very

8:21

dangerous precedent for other news organizations.

8:23

Maybe the Biden administration wouldn't do

8:25

that, but a potential future justice

8:27

department might. But what about

8:29

the exposed press freedom groups that you mentioned reacting to this latest

8:32

news? Well, the ACLU put

8:34

out a statement today saying Assange never

8:36

should have been charged to begin with,

8:38

they said, exposing government secrets and revealing

8:40

them in the public interest is actually

8:42

the core function of journalism. They're

8:44

glad that this case

8:47

did not go to trial and did not

8:49

result in a trial in the United States,

8:51

but they're a little worried about the vital

8:53

role of reporters and making it more

8:55

difficult than it needs to be. And

8:57

I think it's also worth reminding folks that

8:59

WikiLeaks' reputation evolved from those initial

9:01

leaks about Iraq and Afghanistan and

9:03

the wars there. But ahead of

9:05

the 2016 campaign, WikiLeaks

9:09

also got a lot of attention because it

9:11

published lots of private emails from the Democratic

9:13

National Committee. Can you tell us more about

9:15

that, since that was also a couple years

9:18

ago? This was in the summer of 2016, before

9:21

Hillary Clinton officially accepted the Democratic

9:23

Party's nomination. WikiLeaks

9:25

released thousands and

9:27

thousands of emails. These

9:29

were private communications between folks like the

9:31

communications director of the Democratic Party and

9:34

the national finance director. And I remember

9:36

just reporters were like digging and digging

9:38

through this information. And one of the

9:40

things that was really interesting is, you

9:42

know, this was, I'm sure some listeners

9:44

probably remember, this was the

9:46

Democratic primary cycle between Hillary Clinton and

9:48

Bernie Sanders. And some of these emails showed

9:52

efforts that people thought suggested that

9:54

Clinton and the Democratic Party was

9:56

trying to undermine Vermont Senator Bernie

9:58

Sanders' campaign. kind of fit into

10:01

this broader distrust. But those were the only

10:03

emails. You inched closer to

10:05

the general election in 2016. There

10:08

was another batch of emails released with John

10:10

Podesta, who was a very close Clinton advisor.

10:12

And over time, multiple US

10:15

intelligence agencies concluded that Russia

10:17

was behind the hack of

10:19

these democratic emails that WikiLeaks

10:21

published. I got to say,

10:23

I find the politics of

10:25

this really confusing. Because even though Assange

10:27

was initially charged by the

10:30

Trump administration, hasn't Trump also said

10:32

that he's up for pardoning him

10:34

as well? Can you, Osma, can

10:36

you walk me through where the

10:38

politics of all this stands

10:41

now, specifically when we're talking about Trump

10:43

and the Republican Party? Actually, it sounds like

10:45

what you're referring to were some

10:47

comments that Trump made earlier this year

10:50

when he was asked if he would

10:52

pardon Julian Assange. I believe this took

10:54

place during a podcast interview ahead of

10:56

his speech at the Libertarian Convention. He

11:00

suggested that decision was

11:02

under, quote, serious consideration. So

11:04

I do think the politics of this all

11:07

is rather mushed up. You've heard some Republicans

11:09

over the years really talk about the need

11:11

to crack down on leaks, national security dangers

11:13

that they feel that some of this creates

11:16

by having these leaks. But then at the

11:18

same time, you're hearing that he

11:20

would have potentially pardoned Julian Assange as

11:22

well. That may be as

11:25

much a statement about Donald Trump's Republican

11:27

Party as anything, because if

11:29

you talk to longtime intelligence officials

11:32

and FBI agents

11:34

and national security

11:36

prosecutors, those kinds of people

11:39

were never big fans of Julian Assange. And

11:41

frankly, they were offended by

11:43

these leaks. And they remain offended by

11:45

these leaks. So it's just another way

11:48

that Donald Trump is kind of scrambling

11:50

our traditional understanding of politics these days.

11:53

All right, well, let's leave it there for today.

11:55

I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting. I'm Asma Khaled.

11:57

I cover the White House. And I'm Carrie Johnson.

12:00

and national justice correspondent. And thank you

12:02

for listening to the NPR Politics Podcast.

12:12

New from the Embedded Podcast. What

12:15

happens when three Republican women challenge their

12:17

own party? Maybe we need to speak

12:19

out a little bit bolder. Maybe

12:21

we need to do something to get people's attention. They

12:24

have a front row seat to democracy. Now

12:27

you do too. Listen

12:29

to Supermajority from NPR's Embedded

12:32

and WPLN. Here

12:37

at Shortwave Space Camp, we escape our

12:39

everyday lives to explore the mysteries and

12:41

quirks of the universe. We

12:43

find weird, fun, interesting stories that

12:45

explain how the cosmos is partying all

12:48

around us. From

12:50

stars to dwarf planets to black holes

12:52

and beyond, we've got you. Listen

12:55

now to the Shortwave Podcast from NPR. There's

13:01

a lot to stay on top of on any given day.

13:03

You might have to break things down into smaller pieces in

13:05

order to keep up. That's why

13:07

we're introducing the new Consider This

13:09

newsletter from NPR. Every

13:11

weekday we sift through all the

13:13

day's news and bring you one

13:15

big story in an easily skimmable

13:17

format. So you become a mini

13:20

expert on a major topic each

13:22

day. Sign up for free at

13:24

npr.org/Consider This newsletter.