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Memphis is a good town. Good place to go to college. We

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there, it's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Susan

1:00

Davis. I cover politics. I'm Ryan Lucas.

1:02

I cover the Justice Department. And I'm Domenico

1:04

Montanaro, senior political editor and correspondent. And

1:06

President Biden's son Hunter is on trial in

1:09

Wilmington, Delaware. He's charged with lying about his

1:11

drug use when he filled out federal forms

1:13

to buy a firearm back in 2018. Ryan,

1:16

you're in Delaware. You're outside the courthouse right now. You've

1:18

been covering the trial all week. So I'll just put

1:20

it to you this way. What have been the key

1:23

moments that you think are worth highlighting? There

1:25

are key legal moments and then there are kind of

1:27

these very difficult emotional moments. And one of those just

1:29

happened right before we came out for the lunch break

1:31

today. Naomi Biden, Hunter

1:33

Biden's daughter, was called to the

1:35

stand to testify for

1:38

the defense. She was on the

1:40

stand for about an hour, maybe a

1:42

little less. And, you know, she

1:44

said at one point she was nervous. You had

1:46

family members, Biden family members in the front row.

1:48

First Lady Jill Biden's in the front row. Joe

1:51

Biden's sister's in the front row as well. Hunter Biden's

1:53

wife. You could see them trying to kind of

1:55

wipe away tears. So a

1:57

difficult family moment as she's up there testifying

1:59

about this. her relationship with her father and

2:01

how difficult that was at times. In

2:04

terms of the legal side of this, it's

2:06

been interesting watching the government try to build

2:08

this case. They've used text

2:11

messages in which Hunter talks about his drug

2:13

use, extensive drug use, his addiction to crack

2:15

cocaine. They played long

2:17

episodes from his memoir that he himself

2:19

narrates talking about this downward spiral into

2:21

drug use that he had over several

2:23

years. And

2:25

then we heard from three

2:29

women who had romantic relationships with him,

2:31

including his ex-wife, Katherine Buell, former

2:33

girlfriend Zoe Kestin, and then his

2:36

brother's widow, Hallie

2:40

Biden, about how they

2:42

witnessed his drug use. And

2:44

we got kind of an inside look at the toll that

2:46

this had on the family and how difficult it was for

2:49

them. There was testimony about

2:51

seeing him smoke crack cocaine, about seeing him buy

2:53

crack cocaine. Brennan

2:55

talked about watching him cook crack cocaine on

2:57

his own. And so we've

3:00

seen the toll that this has taken on his family. There

3:02

are some key facts here that Hunter Biden does

3:04

not dispute. He does not dispute his history of

3:07

addiction and that things happen when he was faced

3:09

with addiction that he now regrets. One

3:11

hundred percent. And his attorney, Abby Lowell,

3:14

has said exactly that in court several

3:16

times, saying there's no argument that Hunter

3:19

struggled with addiction. What

3:21

he has tried to do, what Abby Lowell has tried

3:23

to do is take all the

3:25

testimony that the government has given documenting

3:28

the drug use and

3:30

say, let's focus on the specific time period

3:32

when Hunter bought and owned the gun. Because

3:35

that's what those charges revolve around is, was

3:37

he a drug user when he bought the gun? And

3:41

then did he lie on the forms about

3:43

it? And so what he's

3:45

done is he's taken all this government testimony and

3:47

he's asked the three women that I mentioned whether

3:50

they ever saw him use drugs over the

3:52

specific period that he owned the gun. And

3:55

each one said, no, they did not. So

3:57

that's kind of what he's trying to base

3:59

this defense on. But there's one problem with

4:01

that, and that's something that the

4:03

prosecution keeps on coming back to, is there

4:05

are two text messages that Hunter Biden sent

4:09

a day after and then two days after he bought the gun

4:11

in October of 2018. In one,

4:13

he tells Hallie Biden that he's waiting to

4:15

meet a drug dealer named Mookie. And

4:18

in the other one, he texts her

4:20

that I was sleeping on a car

4:22

smoking crack at 4th and Rodney. And

4:25

those are two that the

4:27

defense is trying to find a way to bat

4:29

a side. They've tried to say that, you know,

4:31

nobody knows whether he was actually doing that. Hallie

4:34

Biden said sometimes Hunter would lie about what he was doing. It's

4:37

just a totally messy thing. Obviously has

4:39

political implications because this is the first

4:41

family we're talking about. A

4:44

week or so after, we were seeing

4:46

a former first family dragged into court

4:48

because the principal, former

4:51

President Donald Trump, was convicted

4:55

on a business falsification felony charge in

4:57

New York. So, you

4:59

know, it's a weird time in politics because it's

5:01

not a thing that you normally see for families

5:04

of those who are running for president. I

5:06

do think the politics of this are interesting, strictly

5:09

through the political lens for Joe Biden, because so

5:11

much of the story of his son's addiction and

5:13

his fatherhood and all of that has been very

5:15

public. And this has been

5:17

litigated in some ways in the 2020 election as well. The

5:21

president has often seemed like a sympathetic figure

5:24

to Americans because the things about drug use

5:26

and addiction and families is, quite frankly, not

5:28

uncommon in this country. Probably

5:31

Joe Biden's best moment in the 2020

5:33

campaign was the debate where Donald Trump

5:35

tried to corner him and say your

5:37

son is a cocaine addict. And

5:40

he was like, there's lots of other Americans

5:42

who've dealt with these kinds of issues with

5:44

their family, with their kids. And

5:47

I'm proud of my son for having gone through that and

5:49

from coming out the other side of it. You

5:51

know, I think the real key here is

5:54

whether or not Republicans can do what they've

5:56

been trying to do and have been unsuccessful

5:58

in doing and somehow tying. Hunter's

6:00

troubles to Joe Biden, which they've not

6:02

been able to do at all, but

6:05

continue to sort of use Hunter Biden as

6:07

a way to try to undermine Joe. Sure.

6:10

I mean, Domenico, there's also the politics

6:12

here of, and you referenced the Trump

6:14

verdict last week, you know, Donald Trump

6:16

and his allies have blamed Joe Biden

6:18

for that guilty verdict, suggesting that it's

6:20

somehow the result of, you

6:22

know, Democratic politics, and he's been a puppet

6:24

master in the justice system. But

6:26

yet his own son is on trial in the

6:28

very same justice system, which would seem to undermine

6:31

the notion that somehow Joe Biden has any control

6:33

over what the court system is doing in

6:35

this country. Yeah, and this is a federal case,

6:37

which the president would have more control over than

6:39

a state case like Donald Trump was convicted on

6:42

in New York. Ryan, what's the timeline here? Do

6:44

you have a sense of how much more testimony the

6:46

jury needs to hear when there might be a verdict?

6:49

Well, Hunter's attorney said he planned to

6:51

call two or three witnesses. We've already

6:53

heard from two. We'll see what happens

6:55

in the afternoon. Lowell said

6:57

that he expects by Monday at the latest

6:59

will be done with defense testimony.

7:01

The government would then have a chance to put

7:03

on a short rebuttal. And

7:06

then this case will be sent to the jury. All

7:09

right, we're going to leave it there for today. Ryan, I know you

7:11

have to get back in the courthouse. So thanks so much. Thank

7:13

you. All right, let's take a quick break. And when we get

7:15

back, we'll talk about the latest from the campaign trail. This

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8:38

we're back and Claudia Grisales joins us now. Hello,

8:40

friend. Hey there. And

8:42

the 2024 presidential primary season, such as it

8:44

was, is almost over. Guam and the US

8:47

Virgin Islands are holding their contest this weekend.

8:49

But Domenico, let's take a step back here.

8:51

I mean, this primary season, it almost felt

8:53

like it happened, but it didn't

8:55

because it felt pretty much ordained from the

8:58

start. Yeah. Look, I think

9:00

that this was almost preordained, despite the fact

9:02

that many voters didn't actually think it was

9:04

going to happen. Having a

9:06

Biden-Trump rematch, I think some people are

9:08

still sort of like not

9:11

paying attention to politics. You know,

9:13

they've stepped away from it a little bit

9:15

because they don't like their choices and they

9:17

haven't quite come around to the reality of

9:19

what this is. I mean, maybe it'll happen

9:21

after the conventions. Maybe it'll happen at the

9:24

conventions. Maybe it'll happen just as people are

9:26

going into the ballot boxes. But, you know,

9:28

everything's trending closer to a lower

9:30

turnout election than 2020 because of

9:33

all of that. Also just

9:35

because of the fact that there is

9:37

not universal mail-in voting everywhere. So

9:40

you know, I think the primary season, we

9:42

all kind of knew, was front loaded, that

9:44

by March or so, mid-March, we would know

9:46

who the nominee on the Republican side would

9:48

be. And that's exactly

9:50

what happened. Donald Trump, with these

9:53

indictments, has been able to really

9:55

consolidate the Republican base, announced his

9:57

election effort a week after the 2020 election.

12:00

And they really believe this. And Vegas was

12:02

one of those places that was so

12:04

hard hit during the pandemic. This was

12:06

their tourism industry that was shut down.

12:08

And they're still building, rebuilding and

12:10

trying to get past that. And this kind

12:12

of aligns with what polling is telling us

12:15

in Nevada, Domenico, that Trump has

12:17

been leading a lot of polls there. And Nevada is

12:19

historically always a state that's decided

12:21

by really tight margins. And down the ballot

12:23

in Nevada next week on June 11th, they're

12:25

going to have their congressional primaries. The Republican

12:28

Sam Brown is expected to win the nomination

12:30

there to take on Democratic incumbent Jackie

12:32

Rosen. Our most recent

12:34

NPR PBS NewsHour Marist Polling, when

12:37

it's asked that congressional ballot question, the broad, which

12:39

party would you like to control Congress? It does

12:41

illuminate that all of this stuff is really tight

12:43

right now. It is very tight. I

12:45

mean, 4545 was in our in our

12:47

poll, whether or not you preferred a

12:49

Democratic control Congress or Republican control Congress.

12:52

That may seem like a tie.

12:55

And it is by all me

12:57

by all standards. But except for

12:59

whether or not it actually means

13:01

you will control Congress because Republicans

13:03

control so many more seats

13:06

and the way that they're drawn, that

13:08

Democrats need actually a much larger margin

13:11

in their favor to be able to control

13:13

Congress. So in some ways, the

13:15

4545 does put Democrats even more on

13:18

their back foot than the tie would

13:20

appear to show. Are there

13:22

any races coming up that you're watching

13:24

that might tell us something about either the

13:26

primaries or the parties or which way things

13:28

are going? Yeah, one pattern you raised this

13:31

early in the election season when we talk

13:33

about revenge politics that seems to be playing

13:36

a big role in elections this year.

13:38

We just saw Tony Gonzalez in one

13:40

of Texas's largest districts, one of the

13:43

largest in the country, eke out a

13:45

win pretty much by about 400 votes

13:47

against a challenger that was being supported by one

13:50

of his colleagues in his own party, Matt

13:52

Gaetz of Florida, who is facing

13:54

his own opponent as well. And so

13:56

it's interesting in terms of that

13:58

theme. One other. person

14:00

in that group, there's many, but to

14:02

point out, is Nancy Mace of South

14:05

Carolina, who was one of the eight

14:07

who voted to oust House Speaker Kevin

14:09

McCarthy. Now on his own revenge tour.

14:11

Exactly! And he has his fingerprints on

14:14

a lot of these races. And so

14:16

it's gonna be interesting to see if

14:18

she can pull this out. She's really

14:21

on the defense, for example, in terms

14:23

of trying to fend off this challenge.

14:25

She's done very well in the past

14:27

in terms of facing these tough races.

14:30

She's been on the opposite side of

14:32

former President Donald Trump and she has

14:34

prevailed. And now she has his endorsement!

14:36

What a world! And so it's gonna

14:39

be interesting to see the next steps

14:41

for her. She's able to win this

14:44

race as well. I'm also watching later

14:46

this month in New York the primary

14:48

there. I've done reporting on this in

14:50

the Democratic primaries, the sort of split

14:52

between the Progressive Wing and the more

14:54

centrist wing of the party over Israel-Gaza

14:56

politics. And Jamal Bowman, one

14:58

of the male members of the squad who has taken

15:00

a lot of votes against Israel in Congress, he is

15:02

a very real primary challenge. From

15:04

George Latimer, sort of an old-school New York

15:07

party boss, the polling's really tight there. And

15:09

so far in this election season, no congressional

15:11

incumbent is lost in a primary. Jamal

15:13

Bowman is one that's coming up that I think a

15:16

lot of Democrats are watching to see which way that

15:18

race could go and what those sort of Israel politics

15:20

are telling us about the Democratic Party. Yeah,

15:22

New York in particular is a place where

15:24

this kind of thing can resonate. So,

15:27

you know, I'm not sure, you know,

15:29

how that race is gonna really play out,

15:31

but we've seen there be some

15:33

push from the other side of

15:35

this because there's been so much

15:37

conversation around the protests on college

15:39

campuses and the pro-Palestinian

15:41

protests that some of the concern

15:44

from the Biden administration and the

15:46

Biden campaign on

15:48

pushing too far to show that

15:51

they're aligning with the progressive wing is

15:54

that when you look at polling, you

15:56

look at surveys, they see that there's

15:58

support for continuing. to aid Israel

16:01

when you look at voters in the middle and

16:03

older voters. And that really puts Biden's

16:06

campaign in a difficult position. And some

16:08

of these candidates are going to be

16:10

pushed now to see whether or not

16:12

there's any salience on the side

16:14

that's a little more pro-Israel. All right, let's take

16:16

another break. And when we get back, time for Can't Let It

16:18

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17:26

that sitting and swiping. Your

17:28

body is adapting to your technology.

17:31

Learn how and what you can do

17:33

about it. I really felt like the

17:35

cloud in my brain kind of dissipated.

17:38

Once I started realizing what a difference

17:40

these little bricks were making, there's no

17:42

turning back from me. Take

17:45

NPR's Body Electric Challenge. And

17:48

we're back. And

17:52

it's time for Can't Let It Go, the part

17:55

of the podcast where we talk about the things

17:57

we just can't stop thinking about, politics or otherwise.

18:00

I'm gonna start off because there is

18:02

something that has taken hold of the

18:04

Washington desk of NPR and we need

18:06

to talk about it. And

18:08

it's a little app called Stompers. Stompers.

18:11

Stompers. It's basically

18:13

an app that allows you to connect with your

18:15

friends and then compete for the steps that you

18:17

take throughout the course of the day. Oh no,

18:19

I'm so glad I don't know about this. I'm

18:22

gonna erase this from my mind afterwards. It's

18:25

been an illuminating couple of days because I think

18:27

we're really learning a lot about each other in

18:29

terms of who's active, who's maybe a little

18:31

bit of a cheater, who you're willing to

18:33

take on. Part of the app allows

18:36

you to throw banana peels at people or hit them

18:38

with a baseball bat to knock them back. Some

18:42

of our more creative colleagues are finding ways

18:44

to work around the system. What are they doing? I'm

18:46

not gonna call out names, Eric McDaniel, but they will

18:49

do tricky things like put their phone on airplane mode

18:51

so you don't exactly know how many steps they're taking

18:53

and then they turn it back on to like vant

18:55

to the front of the pack. Wow. But

18:58

I would say it's bringing

19:00

like a new level of added stress to my

19:02

work life, but I will say my step count,

19:04

my daily step count is going up. Eric is

19:06

very smart and very savvy. He creates like

19:08

algorithms and all kinds of things. Yeah, probably

19:11

AI that's doing his steps. He's

19:13

just watching his phone around. I love that.

19:16

I love that. Domenico, what about you? What can't you

19:18

let go of? The Olympics and air conditioning. Paris

19:20

is trying to be so green about these Olympics

19:23

that they have all these sustainability things that

19:25

they're trying to do, which is laudable. But one

19:27

of the things that sort of raise a red

19:29

flag for me is no

19:32

air conditioning in the dorms where

19:35

the athletes are staying. They have

19:38

this like cooling system in the buildings

19:40

where they're running like cold water in

19:43

pipes underneath the rooms and they swear

19:46

there's no way that the rooms will get warmer than

19:48

79 degrees. Let me

19:50

tell you something. That's hot. That's hot to sleep. There's a reason they

19:52

picked 79, because it's not 80. Right?

19:56

It is not comfortable. Exactly.

19:58

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