0:02

Play whippin joint once again by Professor

0:05

Hannah fry, a mathematician

0:07

at University College London and

0:09

is also an author and broadcaster and

0:12

the Familia guest. Hero number

0:14

for Hanna's always great fun,

0:16

quick with a joke yet We're

0:19

talkin about matters life and death. That's

0:21

because about a year-and-a-half ago and

0:24

it was diagnosed with cervical cancer.

0:27

It was extremely serious.

0:29

They were fees. It was spreading within

0:31

a month. hadn't had radical

0:33

and life-changing surgery including

0:36

a hysterectomy it was a move

0:38

which has hopefully saved her life that

0:41

is a why for a mother of two young girls

0:44

and experience the season emotions

0:46

you'd expect from any one facing

0:48

cancer she's also a person

0:50

supposedly well versed in the

0:52

details of risk probability

0:55

special analytical read

0:57

that change the way she thought about cancer

1:00

well had assumed much

1:02

of her experience and that deeply

1:04

personal footage is going to form part of

1:07

a program about to be broadcast on

1:09

the baby say the shows cold making

1:11

sense of cancer today

1:13

we're going to hear more about it but first

1:16

i asked her about her diagnosis

1:18

and how she spent many months setting

1:20

aside a routine less inviting

1:23

her to be screened he

1:28

, in symptoms

1:30

that i just dismiss them because i just had a bay

1:32

they stay here your total

1:34

over the place and yeah was it

1:36

was busy so have had since his but they weren't like these

1:39

really strong you know when the lights

1:41

and doubled over and i can a or and a thing as

1:43

is that whatever miles enough that i just that i just

1:45

dismisses the i'm really trying close to missing

1:48

it and then you had this letter telling you to come

1:50

in and did i have a screening but you will i

1:52

am too busy and

1:53

alyssa here which i think happens quite no actually

1:56

i mean i think it's as a nice

1:58

may maybe it's just me though i don't think that when

2:00

women get a text message saying that kismet

2:03

as that life right drop everything everybody

2:06

emergency say since side

2:08

to get down to the nurses it

2:10

serves like our okay opposite on this is a

2:12

lists and i will allow like so that

2:14

a half it and it was really one of those

2:16

it was it was one of those i i popped on as and

2:18

little pile on my desk as if to to

2:21

do things and , with

2:23

the pandemic and sisters lots

2:25

of stuff going on it just it did it didn't reach

2:27

the top of the pile for six months of that on tv

2:30

and movies and that some i'm being told to have cancers

2:32

like this this , is

2:34

that what it was like is it or or that like

2:36

a series of steps so it might be this

2:38

might be this and a gradually becomes more more serious

2:41

a reservist serious is catastrophic

2:43

moment where you're sat down in a room and someone says

2:46

of got something terrible to terry is sources

2:48

as it is a little sad face actually sets

2:51

a little this and he

2:53

noticed something up say they detect his maternal

2:55

muscles and then they to they biopsy

2:57

and the biopsy right okay that's abnormal cells

3:00

but as i can

3:00

hint that they might be something more serious

3:03

and then they don't get

3:05

into more and then it's

3:08

, it got more and more and more more serious

3:10

bar when they actually sit you down

3:13

and say this is your diagnosis

3:16

the have a special room that they take you to

3:18

the had no idea about this before so

3:21

you go in and there are

3:23

ah these these

3:26

of nhs white claim on

3:28

says and managed to have them facing

3:30

each other and like a little size

3:32

coffee table in the middle with a boxes

3:35

to see that looks like priests prefer

3:37

priests and then the reason why

3:39

i knew that it was like oh okay

3:41

i'm in the cancer m s's nics

3:44

hit the wall there was like

3:46

as freetown ninety nine at picture

3:48

as a as an altered from ikea

3:53

altered , that is very strange out of body

3:55

experience is obviously i need seriousness

3:58

of the submissive i was like imagine

4:00

the moment that someone had that

4:02

decision to be like you know was gonna make

4:04

this guy's arm that a a three ninety nine

4:07

hooks it reminds us that excited sake

4:09

what pictures you think they should have had on the whoa i

4:11

mean distance to all kids would

4:13

be enough exercise

4:16

although let's go to sweden we know it wouldn't be war

4:18

says there was no windows in the red zone forty

4:20

be dying and maybe don't mind dying

4:23

or get on the same yes

4:25

doesn't matter so nunes will not

4:27

win all the

4:29

the bad news is raining upon you and

4:31

these huge decisions that the mouse what

4:33

point or did that kind of mathematical

4:37

analytical hannah brain in

4:40

order that just ogre at the window and you suddenly became

4:42

just like you know and an emotional

4:45

person what about my children what about my husband

4:47

am i gonna die or did state that

4:50

that massey sort of he ended

4:52

the training take over from the the

4:54

chain takeover of , so i

4:56

think think think i think

4:59

that is this is sent me to for me anyway

5:01

but it but i think that they're almost two versions

5:03

almost yourself think that of have

5:19

i i i

5:25

i a

5:47

in one at a tailspin

5:50

i had no idea of western i had no idea what

5:52

to i didn't i didn't didn't work

5:54

at that time and that's the thing that sort of

5:56

it need i needed for comfort you know and

5:58

and sort of my my true self who

6:00

cobra on with very very scared and

6:03

was very very ah

6:06

radha in the headlights basically i just had no

6:08

idea what to do or western

6:11

completely terrified and ,

6:13

would repeatedly try a new statistics

6:16

and try and use reading medical papers

6:19

as a sort of comfort as it were

6:22

were the more and more and more you read i just

6:24

wanted to read something that says

6:26

this is what's gonna happen to you and you can't

6:28

find it's not out there said is

6:30

only so far that that said the mathematics

6:33

and statistics will ever be able to take you in that

6:35

moments and and i've spoken to

6:37

a few other people including

6:39

a day to speak to how to him so and my

6:42

mind me mincing this he said it publicly the force

6:44

that he's been in a similar situation where

6:46

he has been diagnosed with cancer

6:49

and you know all of the that that the

6:51

training as you call it call

6:53

, takes you so far really big the

6:55

at the end of the day you are just ivory

6:57

the frightened person who doesn't know

7:00

What to do next when

7:01

you're sitting down with the doctors in the So

7:03

it talkin through what's happening to you

7:05

and what your options are. Do you tell

7:08

them? Hey, look, I'm

7:09

i a mess. I'm Titian, give it to me straight,

7:12

give it to Paul, give it to me. Different to how

7:14

you would give it to some of or other other that

7:16

you do you like. Do you you plead for

7:18

them to talk to you in a different

7:21

The normal? Yes, dropping

7:25

something. The other day, something thing that

7:27

interested a little secret

7:29

handshake. in but the problem with

7:31

this was that it was during ties it and

7:34

, i wasn't able to meet my team face

7:36

to face until i see when infiltration

7:39

and i think that this is

7:41

also in a january twenty

7:43

twenty one so the point

7:46

at which the nhs was at it's most stretch

7:48

to the point at which does the crisis

7:51

was was it in its fullest and so

7:53

the schools and so

7:55

i just various to eat felt like felt

7:57

like want to waste that

8:00

the time i don't want to a

8:02

know take more than i

8:04

was allotted you know take take more than my

8:06

allotted slot and so i didn't push

8:08

yeah i didn't ask ask the questions i didn't it

8:11

might have you ever the phone then it would be in person anyway

8:13

by didn't do they signals as like a cake

8:15

two months to me

8:19

i haven't seen your tv program at but i have

8:21

read a very very excellent interview

8:23

with you in the telegraph recently which are linked

8:26

to as well it did come through

8:28

or i got the impression from the article

8:30

that you do have some

8:32

regret about how things played out yeah

8:34

i think if , is

8:36

quite the right words because

8:39

i think regret implies that if

8:41

i did it all over again i would have chosen

8:44

a radically different paths and i don't think

8:46

that that's necessarily true that to give you

8:48

just a bit more detail sites and

8:50

the big thing about my taste was that it

8:52

looked as though the concert go into my

8:54

lymph nodes suspect unknown to speak questions

8:57

can tell for sure whether it had or not and

9:01

the surgeon kid

9:03

four

9:04

the much risk reduction is possible they

9:06

decided to take out all of eliminate during

9:08

my pelvis and

9:11

the result of that is the i now have this lifelong

9:14

chronic condition called lymphedema were

9:16

asked where pressure comments every day and

9:19

i can't stand up for long periods of time and

9:21

it's something that can get progressively worse than some people

9:23

end up being really seriously am

9:26

having them ability seriously impacted

9:29

by this condition so

9:32

the thing i wish had happened differently is

9:35

that i wish that that calculation of list

9:38

of the balance between

9:40

my long term chances of survival

9:42

the , that the cancer was already him the

9:44

lymph nodes already given the evidence that that

9:47

was there and

9:49

the consequences of living

9:51

with lymphedema i wish i had

9:54

been more involved in that conversation

9:56

as as that calculation rights because

9:58

as it was we suit is told

10:01

what surgery to have i could have said no way

10:04

i could have been sort of quite for for every i'm not

10:06

suggesting for seconds that the

10:08

m that that that my says it did anything

10:10

wrong but as it was sort of presented

10:12

with here's the says real having and

10:14

then i was left feeling as though i had

10:17

paid a very very heavy price for

10:19

risk reduction in in the end

10:22

it turned out he would have my lymph nodes with claire

10:24

and i and i didn't need to list them and that

10:26

as it turned out as it turned out

10:28

i because they two counts

10:31

the they didn't say much i didn't need hockey

10:33

my rights that was sort of like the extra

10:36

the extra wind yes was removed

10:38

or the thoughts of your body assess assess

10:42

the , other upson was

10:45

ah be that cervical cancer so

10:47

so they could have just remove the cervix and

10:50

they said that if

10:52

they did that's and it

10:54

my admin i could have had another child but

10:56

the risk of miscarriage was really high of

10:59

a comp cases in pregnancy was really was

11:01

and all say that i would be i

11:03

really risking it with the cancer

11:06

is with them density and

11:08

i think that now having looked

11:10

into it loads since i think

11:12

that there are actually a number of

11:14

different options between those two extremes

11:17

of let's not take out very much at all and

11:19

really risk it's and let's

11:21

just minimize risk as much as possible and just

11:23

take out everything everything everything and

11:25

then some and then some and then some

11:28

and i think that it's just some think that

11:30

you want to the a cancer

11:32

patient to , able to look

11:34

back and feel as though you had agency

11:37

but true agency real

11:39

agency rather than between two

11:43

food choices you know it wasn't a

11:45

binary choice and it and it felt like

11:47

it was and i think the i may well have

11:49

the that not enough for the same radical surgery

11:51

anyway but i think that if you're really

11:54

really giving informed consent than it means

11:56

being really really informed and

11:58

some me that meant really understand

12:00

they both the benefits

12:02

of the treatment in terms of just

12:05

how much of a difference it would make to my risks

12:07

but also really the costs of it so

12:10

people who don't know you do you have

12:12

children to go with i find that are you

12:14

in your husband were open to the idea of

12:16

having another one that one that was something that was

12:18

obviously something you had to weigh up because that that

12:20

would cease to be an option as i understand yeah

12:22

option agree i really wanted really sad as anyone

12:24

said that that yeah

12:26

said think this is one of the things the have to come

12:28

to terms with come talk about those sort of

12:31

risking you know weighing

12:33

up all these things but i guess when when

12:35

the stakes are this

12:38

man's and things like children

12:41

and family in i totes who was the two

12:43

of the most important thing with the universe

12:45

as him and nine it must be really hard

12:47

to just how to apportion waiting to these

12:50

things like it's not just it's not like betting

12:52

on a horse sore looking ,

12:54

traffic fly like sort of suddenly the

12:56

stakes are so different out out

12:58

imagine normal kind of risk reward

13:01

assessment suspects it must be really hard

13:03

to apportion waiting to these things here

13:05

it's to then i think that the only person who can possibly

13:08

do is is the patient themselves i don't

13:10

think the eating you can create an equation

13:12

as a population level analysis

13:15

is this that applies to everybody i think i

13:17

think the only person who can really way

13:19

up their own values is the patient

13:22

themselves and i think they really

13:24

that the

13:25

this is sort of either i was left with after this

13:27

experience with that we have all of these was cut

13:30

license but they're based on things like

13:32

the number of people who survived ten years or

13:35

i'm you know that the number of people

13:37

for whom the cancer doesn't return and

13:40

, they don't include thing

13:42

site i don't know just that the heavy

13:44

heavy cost of treatment treatment a

13:47

i mean in terms of you're paying

13:49

with your organs are suffering ascent

13:51

suffering mean crossing that them mean crossing sort of

13:54

visceral sense it also

13:56

i think that there are times where the none

13:58

they do this to the numbers there

14:01

that you can look at but it's it's how you

14:03

interpret them that is different

14:05

for different people think that was the impression

14:07

that impression ended up with either

14:09

the course of this experience with this

14:11

this this formally that we have at the moment

14:14

for you shouldn't shouldn't have treatment

14:16

and how to reduce risk and what risks were

14:18

taking what prices are worth playing

14:20

i just don't think that they are designed

14:23

to take the individual patients

14:25

values into account enough and

14:27

i really noticed this when this i

14:30

went on to to make this film and

14:33

and spent a lot of time and can't connect

14:35

and took a chance patience and there was one

14:37

day was i think i will never

14:39

ever forget so i was in

14:42

this transits in it and there was

14:44

a woman who had just been diagnosed

14:46

with breast cancer and she had a lumpectomy

14:48

had a chance that taken out and

14:51

they were discussing whether or not she not she and

14:53

have chemotherapy and sir

14:56

issues in her late sixties had chances

14:59

of living another ten years if she

15:01

did nothing right she literally stops human there at

15:03

that that was it a chance of living another ten years

15:05

were eighty four percent boss

15:08

if they took everything

15:10

that that medicine haven't throughout her oh

15:12

my new treatments chemo everything

15:15

they could increase it eighty eight percent

15:18

so humor therapy and

15:21

i mean chemotherapy is not fun right

15:24

but it could increase our chances by

15:26

just this four percent

15:28

and that number might mean something completely different

15:30

to you than it would to me means something

15:33

completely different to somebody who who

15:35

has a young family versus somebody who is

15:38

you know in at the and later years

15:40

and actually just wants to enjoy the time

15:42

that they have less try to kind of means different things

15:45

and so i think that that population it's

15:48

, not enough to just put it in terms of numbers

15:50

yours has to take into people into account people funny

15:52

is is the reason why that day

15:55

will stick in my mind for other is

15:58

because or is there in or room when the doctors planning

16:00

this to the patience and then i went

16:02

outside and i had a chat with her and i said

16:05

that's that's a tough one right like that's

16:07

really hard you know what to those who have

16:09

that sets as such that small number

16:12

that that's tough rights and

16:14

have response she said oh we'll have

16:16

to have chemotherapy because otherwise i'll die right

16:22

no no

16:24

that's not what was said some situation

16:27

in , amino the says imposes she said she's you know

16:29

she's in crisis right sir i went back into the

16:31

doctor doctor i said see

16:34

didn't understand what you're telling her

16:37

and the doctor was like yeah like mean you

16:39

know

16:40

you're much more come to about this than i am

16:43

it is because i know i'm the one who has

16:45

to sit here when and see those four percent

16:47

as to see those people who could have stopped their cancer

16:49

coming back and then they have to come see me again

16:52

and i have trying to eat them but i know it's incurable about

16:54

stage and , like a mere

16:56

okay so like i appreciate that you've got this

16:58

population view as the statistics on

17:00

talking about the individual view but

17:03

i just a really tight so

17:05

hunt for by the fact that she doesn't understand

17:08

what she's letting herself him for and

17:10

the doctor replies if they understood

17:13

they wouldn't go through with it

17:15

and i just found that the most incredible

17:19

statement because i'm

17:21

definitely not saying people shouldn't have treatment

17:24

here by the way by i had treatment at

17:26

all the treatments and know it's safe my life

17:28

i'm deathly not saying them but saying i

17:30

really do feel uncomfortable about

17:33

the idea that with sources

17:35

making decisions on behalf of people

17:38

and not really taking the time

17:41

to understand what it is this important

17:44

to them and what they want to preserve

17:46

about their lives going forward whether

17:48

it's time or quantity of time

17:53

did you come away from this process and and

17:55

the film making process with

17:58

a suggestion the an idea like if

18:00

you were put in charge of the national health service

18:03

tomorrow is or answers or something

18:05

you would do something you would change on

18:07

day one to deal with problem

18:10

yeah by the yes mrs she

18:12

says that i think

18:14

In that room with your kids. When

18:16

you get diagnosed, you get a nurse

18:19

who sits with you and you

18:21

can ask her anything you like and

18:23

you can see there's no pressure on time. You

18:25

have as much time as you want. And

18:27

that's a really helpful thing

18:29

because it's just gives YouTube the breathing room

18:31

to things through properly. And

18:33

I think when it comes to making treatment decisions, actually,

18:36

it's almost the opposite. You have 15

18:38

minutes with your surgeon. At the beginning. When

18:41

I this is what we The risks of a

18:43

is Sister, Sister sister's name is still

18:45

working in. The same away saying, do you to sign him if

18:47

he got? And I think what I would

18:49

have would like to see is that you have

18:51

that consultation with the the the consultant,

18:54

and then you go off to another room.

18:56

But in that room, somebody

18:58

sits down. And just says, what

19:00

is most important to you? What

19:03

you have on you is, what do you want

19:05

to preserve a buffalo house? And

19:07

how do we work out? What you

19:09

should do going forward based

19:12

on on on your life? and

19:14

what matters to you too are as

19:16

someone who's currently going through the national health

19:18

service to have a baby with my

19:20

was everything you're saying about

19:23

your cancer

19:25

applies to the as well the number of times

19:27

i've sat in a room and i've had a bunch of stats

19:30

and numbers thrown at me and then

19:32

been told to make an instant decision

19:34

or have a decision made her is it is exactly

19:36

the same situation and yeah i really noticed

19:39

that as well when i was having

19:41

might say these i think that's

19:43

any women and my parents

19:46

had gotten quite good understanding

19:48

the in that situation you have to stand up for yourself

19:50

right you have to sort of gas it on and find yourself

19:53

right i mean i'm so you've been told

19:55

this a thousand times like when your it during

19:57

labor is something isn't right

19:59

you need

20:00

that gives up as you need to sit as good as his

20:02

you have your own advocates your own health

20:04

and actually in kansas has

20:06

specially the beginning with diagnosis doesn't

20:09

you , neither as well right you need

20:11

like in a that that's that i'm

20:14

under no confidence to be able to say say

20:16

to stop i need to think that this but

20:19

you're so frightened and

20:21

so grateful for

20:23

people who go to save your

20:25

life that this your life of that

20:27

that that none of that says is is at home address

20:30

a thinker or it may be around birth and having

20:32

children there is this new infrastructure

20:34

this popped up all the baby boom since

20:36

you get involved and the so much to talk

20:39

and chatter in those groups about how

20:41

to play system this is gonna happen

20:43

but this is how you count for it you gotta stand up for so

20:45

from you've gotta do this and maybe that has sprung

20:47

up around cats at the same way as around

20:50

having babies think you intensive care

20:52

for quite some time in i think that people who have

20:55

long term treatment center and chemotherapy

20:57

more than once i think actually they become quite good

20:59

at at speaking up for themselves and

21:01

and demanding second opinions and it's am

21:04

and precincts essential business and scans and things

21:06

think it's sister you know you're thrown into this

21:08

world and and time is really of

21:10

the essence i mean there are support groups out there

21:12

think get me wrong that macmillan for example

21:15

oh my goodness macmillan are incredible

21:17

they're absolutely amazing

21:18

i don't think anyone's necessarily doing anything wrong

21:21

here but you know you are ultimately

21:23

talking

21:23

about to , us on

21:26

is quite least my heart rate which is an interpretation

21:28

of numbers and am

21:30

i don't think this don't think the support their

21:32

said that as there is set us

21:35

back

21:35

it also have like again attaching

21:38

members defense is easy to attach numbers on

21:40

how many years you might leave after this

21:42

what the percentage shots as of this and

21:44

terms of where the people our allies or

21:46

dying or have the cancer cells of don't

21:49

have the cat south ahead you attach

21:51

a number to how easily you walk

21:53

how you know those other things

21:55

that you're having to attach values to how

21:57

important it is few to her

22:00

a third child or the

22:02

, you can't there's no there's no number too

22:04

attached to that really because it's it's fuzzy

22:06

know of course at which is why you'd be individually

22:09

anyone who can never make that clinton a sense

22:11

i think they have one thing i would say

22:14

is is actually those numbers

22:16

about you know your chances to five alone

22:18

than the number of years you live or whatever whatever

22:21

or not this that the number that you

22:24

pick as your metric ends

22:26

up making a big difference as to how

22:28

things let's say for example

22:30

with that story that i told you about stories on

22:33

had breast cancer and and and between a sports

22:35

and eighty eight cents and i

22:38

was in a pump with a the speaker has her nose

22:40

science her by exactly this and

22:42

he says sets at the moment the metric

22:44

they use his at your chances

22:46

living another ten years passing

22:49

it that way it looks like you're better off having

22:51

teammates but he thinks that

22:53

the evidence has been collected the moment as if

22:55

instead you say your chances

22:58

of being alive at sixteen years actually

23:01

chemotherapy damages

23:03

your long term survival the you have been worse

23:05

off by having the team it there so

23:08

you know that

23:08

the the chemotherapy at that stage

23:11

in life is such a severe process

23:13

to go through the never really recovered from

23:15

it and so i think it's just

23:17

you know it's partly that you can't make

23:19

this make this hard to make this balance between

23:22

concrete numbers and

23:23

motion which is what we took him by his but

23:26

i think it's also adding in the fight the athletes

23:28

these aren't concrete numbers

23:30

anyway these odd numbers are totally

23:32

dependent on the prices metric that your choosing

23:43

the thing you did during your process which

23:45

is perhaps not common

23:47

is you did documentary films lots

23:49

of the steps which ,

23:51

the reason you've been able to create this film

23:53

about it that were that we're gonna say soon hopefully

23:56

why we filming it the really

24:01

early on when i first got the diagnosis no

24:04

way which the and no idea which means gonna

24:06

go right like a and they

24:08

were death

24:09

point where it looked very very very serious

24:12

and so i think

24:14

i started writing a diary just

24:16

because i wanted a record

24:19

us as how i was feeling and feeling

24:22

and was going on but i also found

24:24

it quite therapeutic sister he

24:26

can eight

24:27

my emotions aside that can they see my

24:29

constructed says of giving my constructs

24:32

incest something today and

24:34

then i started filming to because it's your documenting

24:36

it your know mumbling methods of meant

24:38

to the other and it

24:40

wasn't until a bit later

24:43

if you be face and i'm talking to my friends

24:45

who owns tv company and he

24:49

persuaded me

24:50

the you take something a bit more seriously

24:53

and when i went into hostile and and

24:55

and and and so on the

24:57

kid he said that's the difference

25:00

about the city's to other cities it's

25:02

all the difference about this film that i ended

25:04

up making compared to it at another

25:06

some about cancer is that this wasn't

25:08

just somebody who who had cancer this

25:11

is somebody who spend their entire lives thinking

25:13

about numbers and about risks about probabilities

25:16

and about how to wait there's up and how to combine

25:18

them with that with being human

25:21

the even not person

25:25

that that that isn't necessarily

25:28

ah mom i haven't necessarily seen it covered

25:30

not much else let's say

25:32

that's really where the film came from but

25:34

but i think that the once i was out the other side's

25:37

i realized all the things i've been talking to you about

25:39

a just a story that much bigger than my own

25:42

and so i think i think and when you watch the film

25:44

there is some of my story in an interview

25:46

at that that the way i see any way is

25:48

this that my story is the thing that gives

25:51

me

25:51

permission to talk about these much

25:54

wider issues about how we

25:56

view cancer and how our

25:58

view that in our series it

26:00

changes the way that we deal with it and

26:03

how bad we are combining

26:08

numbers and emotions when it comes to something

26:10

like this the river part of the that thought

26:14

you might not be watching the film at the end we might

26:16

be what's in your film and you wouldn't be as

26:18

has like right right to the i mean that was so if one of

26:20

the reasons why started filming it because i have psych

26:22

well

26:24

if it doesn't work out for me then

26:26

, kind of want my daughter's to has

26:29

amina and not so it wouldn't

26:31

be sensitive to sit down and what's on your and st

26:33

best sex or he says sussex

26:36

to sort of know to ,

26:38

like they were passes it's

26:41

or had something some sort of document since

26:43

way to let them what's that like for you watching

26:45

it now watching that footage that you recorded

26:52

there's one bit that still quite tough to watch

26:55

you'll you'll know when you said i

27:01

could say that i think it's a camera watch

27:03

it will watch out for that and this book

27:05

that nothing else the cancer free yes

27:07

is making mistakes minty an

27:09

isolating thought process of being

27:12

an intellect slices

27:14

i'm really think through everything

27:16

is this is completely for me that's life so

27:19

, i don't i mostly don't

27:22

i i mostly time find the fuss is difficult to

27:24

watch because i think the attorney

27:26

it's been a really been a for assess

27:28

making it to me i think we should they

27:30

should offer that on the nhs right for everybody

27:32

that to the of say work see the

27:35

emotions of their treatment is the difference

27:37

is scarce film crews defensive

27:39

sort of been around for yeah what do you hope

27:41

is going to be accomplished as a result of this

27:43

filming put out i think all i would

27:46

like the

27:48

the people when they are going

27:51

to cancer to see a little bit

27:53

more empowered

27:54

who are more questions and

27:57

to put themselves first nothing

27:59

just making the first thing is offered to them and

28:01

i think i would also like

28:04

it to be a little bit of a reminder maybe

28:07

this you know i think if you're a doctor

28:09

who works in this in in in on quality

28:12

i mean that they're amazing by the way right like they're

28:14

really sympathetic and that and

28:16

that and some of them at the nazi store

28:19

me but i but i also think that i

28:21

see is it is

28:22

is your nine to five right like you're sat

28:24

that and every day you see patient

28:26

patient impatient impatient inpatient outpatient patient

28:29

and , think he's quite hard to remember the asymmetry

28:32

of thought of that encounter encounter

28:34

for you it's just your your ninety five

28:37

but for them at i

28:46

a a a

28:54

in a little bit more infinite

29:11

because you've put it out there so much you

29:13

know you've made the decision to to talk

29:15

about it and try and get these messages out there obviously

29:18

everyone now knows oh these

29:20

intimate details of your pants in

29:22

your favor of us what's unless you

29:24

know when you go to meetings and meetings people

29:26

and that sort of stuff is that what's what's

29:28

that like as like created i a a or

29:30

and openness is that hard for you is easy is

29:33

the clearest example i can to see possible

29:36

off of wine think these conversations

29:38

importance says he is day

29:40

they did a study on prostate cancer or

29:42

they had a sounds and men his hands

29:45

and been diagnosed with early states

29:47

prostate cancer other thing is is the

29:49

if you've got hansen your body right i'm so

29:51

you instinct would be the same as mine was get

29:53

rid of it cut it now i don't wear my body chemistry

29:55

so in this trial at

29:58

a group of people went off to his

30:00

that three a group of people ah

30:02

instead didn't nothing

30:04

it was just let's watch on weight as keep an eye

30:06

on it see how it progresses and

30:08

after ten years there

30:11

was no different survival

30:13

between us to

30:14

what however during the surgery at

30:16

that stage made you know it it's it

30:19

didn't save anybody's life and

30:21

yet for all the hundreds and hundreds

30:23

of man he had that surgery they

30:25

were since she left with non

30:26

functioning penises rights that erectile

30:29

dysfunction that urinary incontinence

30:31

and they also had i'm a bonus is

30:33

really high probability of all of those things

30:36

this is stuff that the unity surgeries

30:38

it's not like hayes is story

30:41

about your pants a scam you know

30:43

it's like none un anno my life is profoundly

30:46

changed as

30:47

though of this and of what happened

30:49

and , think that it's so important

30:52

to have these conversations outwardly

30:54

an overlay yeah i think the detail

30:56

his paws the it i think the detail as part

30:59

of it i can imagine they will be people who weren't

31:01

thank you for pointing that out though it sounds

31:03

like a little like anti vax

31:05

at other it sounds like what to be and treatment

31:07

yet to be like and i don't have treatment

31:10

in a huge it's distance of damaging

31:12

even doesn't say the last anywhere on ryan

31:14

are no that's not what you're saying but no it's

31:16

definitely definitely not one saying assessing

31:18

the one saying i'm not saying this team is a a

31:20

bad things i think i'm saying

31:22

the attorney with instead of

31:24

cancer which you know it's it's terrible

31:27

sat right next some people say skin and the

31:29

big see because you connie's and say is i'm

31:31

voldemort right like canace to say the

31:33

worse with the terrified of this disease

31:36

the all about our instincts

31:39

sometimes or to do something to

31:41

sleep runs counter to

31:43

our best interests i think that's what

31:45

i'm saying is this that that the urge

31:47

is to just be read as this as quick

31:49

as you possibly can can yet

31:51

i think what i'm trying to say is is

31:53

sometimes used to slightly fight the urge

31:56

is one urge thing tied to i'm sorry it's

31:59

is to sustain

32:00

they did you study in in denmark and

32:02

nineteen seventies and

32:04

those agree with that dollars is he wanted to

32:06

try and work out how many people were

32:08

wandering around with cancer that they

32:10

didn't know about so ,

32:12

they did is they had seventy seven women

32:14

cities women had died very recently

32:16

from from things i heart

32:19

attack for car crashes are

32:21

all kinds of different causes they were all a big range

32:23

of ages as well and with the permission of these

32:25

to disseminate these pathologist

32:28

they performed double mastectomy on these women

32:30

and they set to all of their breast tissue

32:32

to try and find any abnormalities

32:35

the none of these and and had been diagnosed with cancer and

32:37

whether alive rights and i

32:39

don't know what it's like woody thing how many of them

32:41

are tons of maybe one like maybe two

32:43

and seventy seven actually

32:46

about a quarter of these women

32:48

had abnormalities that would

32:50

have chances are the cancer so precancerous

32:53

diagnosis had it been discovered what their allies

32:56

set , they've repeatedly studies rights

32:58

a thyroid cancer prostate cancer and for breast

33:00

cancer then then the best

33:02

estimates them it's the numbers are a bit lower court

33:05

below se but the best estimate said the between

33:07

about two and seven percent of us

33:09

at any time a wandering around with cancer in a

33:11

party that we have no idea about and

33:14

that doesn't mean

33:16

that we've got this really scary

33:19

thing at this epidemic does it

33:21

always super going to die right doesn't mean that all

33:24

actually means the opposite that in fact

33:26

quite often cancer will

33:28

sit in your body and no

33:30

trouble you for your entire

33:32

life right earth sometimes the kansas

33:35

so slow growing that you

33:37

will

33:38

dead from something else way

33:40

way way for it will

33:42

end up causing you trouble and

33:44

you are going in and cutting out every

33:46

single one of these slow growing tenses

33:48

student in the neck

33:50

intensify recap that in a know in

33:52

the prostate i'm in a or

33:54

and oh are you know or or in the past

33:57

the country you're you're not say

34:00

anybody nice and

34:04

this is better to fight the urge

34:10

the survey where they

34:13

, cancer patients if

34:15

they would have a chemotherapy

34:17

that was unlikely to prolong

34:19

their life life what the threshold

34:22

would be that they would consider i'm having

34:24

it's and the people who had cancer

34:27

or for members it's public the

34:29

numbers where i'm at

34:31

that the most common answer was oh i would have

34:33

i would have chemo even if it gave me a note point one

34:36

percent chance of prolonging my prolonging and

34:38

then they are oncologists than

34:41

they asked the people who actually

34:43

are the ones getting out these treatments and

34:45

says them the most common answer

34:47

was i wouldn't have it unless there was

34:49

over fifty percent chance that working and

34:52

working do i do think that pretty extraordinary do

34:54

think that there's this sought said gap

34:58

what kind is gap have we created

35:01

by the people who are offering the shipments wouldn't want

35:03

it for themselves what's your current status

35:05

now what what what lot like were things

35:07

that for you now after you've had your surgeon

35:09

everything a euro clear and things are good

35:11

and what's what's what is the future holds yeah i'm

35:14

all clear things kids and

35:16

that is a one sentence

35:18

and it will come back although that was a single

35:20

number that they gave me and i suspect that

35:23

it decays i've time i haven't hung up because

35:25

since since ,

35:27

things rooted i am it's not

35:29

something that bothers me is that it's not something

35:32

i wake up and middle of the night thinking about and

35:34

actually i have been i'm really

35:36

really count myself among the lucky ones

35:39

not only intensify the success that

35:41

my treatment went well and i

35:43

don't have to live with this live with

35:46

but also because i think the

35:48

i've had that the opportunity said have

35:50

the gift of it as someone said think it's

35:52

just give me this amazing the

35:55

defective on on what's important and

35:58

how how nice is

36:01

ah something to enjoy

36:07

this film making sense of cancer will

36:09

be broadcast on bbc to

36:11

here in the uk on june the second

36:14

check your local gods it will

36:16

of course also be available on the bbc

36:18

i apply for streaming i'll

36:21

include useful links information links

36:23

the podcast description about the tv

36:25

show about cancer and

36:28

more about what has upto

36:32

number file is supported by the mathematical sciences

36:34

research institute i'm

36:36

brady heron thank you very much for listening today

36:39

and we'll be back with another episode very soon