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0:53

This is Michael Cohen and you're listening to

0:55

the Mayor Culpa Podcast. The

0:57

week that was offered plenty of drama,

1:00

both real and fake.

1:01

But let's start with the manufactured bullshit

1:04

coming out of the GOP's Biden witch

1:06

hunt. And let's start with last

1:09

Thursday, the House Oversight Committee

1:12

held its first hearing of their official

1:14

impeachment inquiry investigation

1:16

as of yet, on proven allegations

1:19

of abuse of power, obstruction,

1:21

and corruption by President Biden.

1:25

The GOP invited three witnesses

1:27

to testify before the committee. Justice

1:30

Department official Eileen O'Connor, law

1:33

professor Jonathan Turley, and

1:35

forensic accountant Bruce Dubinsky.

1:38

So if Republicans were looking for

1:40

a bombshell first hearing, well,

1:43

they just didn't get it. Because all

1:45

three witnesses agreed that they

1:47

would not be presenting any

1:50

firsthand witness account of crimes

1:52

committed by the President of the United

1:54

States.

1:55

In his written testimony to the committee,

1:58

Turley, a George Washington professor, Washington

2:00

University Law School professor, pulled

2:03

by Republicans as a key witness for

2:05

the hearing, called into question

2:08

the evidence Republicans have claimed

2:10

to gather against Biden, who

2:12

they allege benefited from his

2:14

son, Hunter Biden's overseas

2:16

business dealings during his vice

2:18

presidency. And I quote,

2:21

I have previously stated that, while

2:24

I believe that an impeachment inquiry

2:26

is warranted, I do not believe

2:28

that the evidence currently meets the standard

2:31

of a high crime and misdemeanor needed

2:34

for an article of impeachment, Turley

2:36

wrote, who has testified at impeachment

2:39

hearings for former presidents Bill

2:41

Clinton and Donald Trump, and,

2:44

as he noted in the document, substantiated

2:47

the two articles of impeachment during

2:50

the latter's inquiry that the House

2:52

later adopted. Representative

2:55

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez called

2:58

the spectacle an embarrassment

3:01

and pointed to the fact that House

3:03

Speaker Kevin McCarthy had

3:05

circumvented a floor vote authorizing

3:08

the inquiry, a vote that

3:10

has typically been taken in past

3:12

impeachment proceedings before moving

3:14

forward with public hearings. And

3:17

then ranking member Jamie Rastin

3:19

shared his disgust. They don't

3:22

have the votes because dozens of Republicans

3:24

recognize what a futile

3:26

and absurd process this is, he

3:28

said. And in his closing

3:31

statement, Rastin claimed that

3:33

everyone was making fun of what he

3:35

called this Seinfeld impeachment,

3:39

an impeachment hearing about nothing. Apparently,

3:42

two days before the government is about

3:44

to shut down, he also said. Now

3:47

other Democratic committee members further

3:49

question the absence of evidence

3:52

from the witnesses with one asking

3:54

why Rudy Giuliani, the former

3:56

New York mayor turned personal attorney

3:59

for Trump,

3:59

wasn't called to testify given

4:02

his previous side quest in Ukraine

4:04

to find information on the elder Biden.

4:08

When I walked into this hearing room, my

4:10

first question was, where's Rudy Giuliani?

4:13

Representative Steven Lynch of Massachusetts

4:15

said, this is supposed to be

4:18

an inquiry on the facts against the

4:20

president for potentially an

4:22

impeachment. Articles of impeachment,

4:24

Lynch continued. The

4:27

one person, the one person

4:29

who was an agent of President Donald

4:31

Trump was sent to Ukraine to dig

4:33

up dirt, find some dirt on Joe

4:36

Biden. Just like Trump

4:38

said to the election officials in Georgia,

4:41

find me 11,780 votes. He

4:44

said to Giuliani, find me

4:47

some dirt on Joe Biden and

4:49

we don't have him here. We're not

4:51

allowed to ask him questions. Lynch

4:53

added before reading off a transcript of

4:55

a call between Trump and Ukrainian

4:58

president Volodymyr Zelensky,

5:00

a sense of futility

5:02

and anger also consumed

5:04

the GOP during the impeachment hearing

5:06

as well. And according

5:09

to CNN, they were upset,

5:11

get this, by the fact that their own

5:14

fucking witness testimony counter

5:16

the bullshit narrative they themselves

5:19

had spun and were saying that there's

5:21

no evidence of a Biden crime. Picking

5:24

witnesses that refute House Republican

5:27

arguments for impeachment. I mean, it's

5:29

fucking mind blowing. This

5:31

is an unmitigated disaster.

5:34

A senior Republican aide told CNN

5:36

Capitol Hill reporter Melanie Zenona,

5:39

as the kids say, the

5:41

whole thing was cringe. A sad,

5:44

sad fucking spectacle meant

5:46

to draw attention away from Donald

5:49

Trump, who this week was found

5:51

to be liable for fraud by a

5:53

New York judge for inflating the value

5:55

of his businesses and given the corporate

5:58

death penalty. More on that. later

6:00

and it's staring down the barrel of

6:02

bankruptcy as well as the

6:04

eventual liquidation of his assets.

6:07

I mean that's not even calling to attention

6:10

the four criminal trials

6:12

that Trump is facing. But

6:14

here we go these GOP

6:16

nutters, they have, what do they want to do? They just

6:18

want to give some back to Biden. And

6:20

it would be funny if it weren't facing

6:23

a government shutdown and truly other

6:25

real-world problems. Meanwhile

6:28

an appeals court rejected Trump's effort

6:31

to delay the start of his fraud

6:33

trial. Early in the week

6:36

Trump was found liable over accusations

6:39

that he inflated the value of his properties

6:41

by billions and billions of dollars.

6:45

Trump, his top executives and

6:47

idiot sons were declared completely

6:50

liable of persistent and repeated

6:53

fraud and the real estate empire

6:55

was unceremoniously stripped of

6:57

its business licenses in New York

7:00

after a judge's powerful ruling

7:02

on Tuesday ahead of the massive

7:04

trial that seeks to hit him

7:07

with no less than 250 million

7:09

dollars in penalties for bank

7:11

fraud. And in a

7:14

stunning development the judge has

7:16

already ordered the complete dissolution

7:19

of the fable Trump organization.

7:21

I mean that's Trump's pride and joy. The

7:23

empire that made him famous and

7:26

ultimately elevated him into the White

7:28

House. The Trump organization

7:31

and its sister companies will be sent

7:33

into receivership to be under the control

7:36

of a court-appointed officer. Trump

7:39

is facing complete corporate dissolution

7:42

or what experts call the corporate

7:44

death penalty. The

7:47

ominous sounding term means that

7:49

he's completely and totally fucked.

7:52

The ruling by New York State Court Justice

7:55

Arthur Ngoron spent some 35 pages

7:59

describing Trump's frauds and

8:01

shutting down his lawyers' ridiculous

8:03

arguments. But the meat

8:06

of it happens in two short sub

8:08

paragraphs when Ingraham yanks

8:10

Trump's corporate charter. And

8:13

the first paragraph orders the immediate

8:15

cancellation of any certificates,

8:18

meaning corporate licenses that

8:21

are held by Trump, Dipshit Sons

8:23

Don Jr., and Eric, who

8:25

both claim to be executive vice presidents

8:28

and corporate leaders

8:30

at the Trump Organization, as

8:32

well as all of the underlying LLCs.

8:36

The second paragraph orders that,

8:38

within 10 days of the date of this order,

8:41

the parties are directed to recommend

8:43

the names of no more than three

8:45

potential independent receivers

8:48

to manage the dissolution of

8:50

the canceled LLCs. And

8:52

my friends, just like that,

8:55

the Trump Organization doesn't exist as

8:57

a business entity any longer. The

9:00

ruling is so massive and

9:02

such a blow to Trump's ego that

9:04

it's even hard for me to fathom.

9:07

Trump seems to have been most offended

9:10

that the ruling calls into question his

9:12

purported net worth.

9:14

The fraud the Trump Organization

9:16

committed is, in part, that

9:18

had vastly overstated the value

9:21

of several properties in order to

9:23

receive favorable contracts and bank

9:26

loans. But Trump insists

9:29

the ruling didn't put a price on his most

9:31

valuable asset, and that is

9:33

his brand. Said,

9:35

of course, in all caps, I mean,

9:38

I am worth much, much more

9:40

than the number shown on my financial

9:43

statements. And two, I

9:45

didn't

9:45

even include my most valuable asset.

9:48

My brand.

9:50

And three, the banks were

9:52

paid back in full sometimes early.

9:55

There were no defaults. The banks made

9:57

money. We're represented by the best

9:59

law firm. and were very, very

10:01

happy there were no victims. And

10:04

also, on the front page of the financial

10:07

statements, there is a strong

10:09

disclaimer clause telling

10:12

all

10:12

not to rely on these financial

10:14

statements.

10:15

The disclaimer clause tells

10:17

anyone reviewing the data, including

10:20

financial institutions, to

10:22

do their own research and analysis.

10:25

It is a non-reliance clause

10:27

and cannot be more clear. Additionally,

10:31

to my being worth far more than

10:33

is shown in the fully disclaimed

10:36

financial statements, again,

10:38

not putting down the value for my

10:40

biggest asset brand, all

10:42

right, the company has hundreds

10:45

of millions of dollars in cash and

10:47

very little debt. I

10:49

mean, my friends, the seismic

10:51

impact of this ruling on Trump will

10:54

take a moment to sink in, but

10:56

the damage will be irreparable. I

10:59

mean, that's certainly for sure. His

11:01

brainwashed, brain-head-dead supporters

11:04

will continue to cheer for him and

11:07

blame the whole thing on a left-wing conspiracy.

11:10

But the vast majority of this nation

11:13

will bury Trump with this news. You

11:16

see, Trump became famous based

11:18

on the sense that he was a deal guy,

11:21

an expert negotiator, and a master

11:23

businessman. And with this

11:26

ruling, all of this is stripped

11:28

away. Now he's just another

11:30

shithead deadbeat.

11:40

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12:06

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12:38

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12:39

And now for the main event.

12:43

Stormin Norm Eisen is back with

12:45

us today to unpack the

12:47

Ing Center,

13:05

a nonpartisan organization advancing

13:08

free, fair, and secure elections.

13:12

His articles for the Brookings Institute

13:14

and elsewhere have made the case for

13:16

why Trump and his brand of criminal

13:19

conspiracists represent a clear

13:21

and present danger to democracy. The

13:24

former Obama ethics are an

13:26

ambassador to the Czech Republic. He

13:29

joins us today to get at the very

13:31

heart, the very essence of what's

13:33

going on.

13:34

So let's go now to that conversation.

13:37

Okay so Norm, I want to start

13:40

today by talking about Judge Ingoron's

13:42

ruling that will basically strip

13:45

Trump of his business licenses

13:48

and likely push him towards liquidation

13:51

if not bankruptcy. Now you

13:54

called it a corporate death penalty.

13:57

What effect do you see this ruling having

13:59

on him? politically, if any, because

14:03

let's be honest, his image of

14:05

himself and how he presents

14:07

himself, especially to his base,

14:10

is all of course predicated on

14:12

being a winner, a rich man, someone

14:15

in control of everything. Now

14:18

with all of this stripped away, he'll

14:20

basically be none of those things. Do

14:23

you think that this buys him sympathy

14:25

from his base, or do you think it potentially

14:28

weakens him substantially? Both.

14:33

In the short term,

14:36

it does, I

14:38

believe, constitute another

14:43

brick in the Trump wall

14:46

of support from roughly 30%

14:50

of Americans.

14:53

He has a very

14:55

high floor with those Americans.

14:58

It's very hard to do anything to

15:00

shape their support of him, Michael, as you

15:02

know. There's no more acute

15:05

Trump observer than your stuff. But

15:09

he has a very low ceiling by

15:11

the same token because he can't get beyond

15:14

that roughly

15:17

30% of Americans

15:20

for firm support.

15:23

So with that group, this is

15:25

going to be, oh, one more attack. The

15:28

witch hunt continues. DA

15:31

Tish James and the judge are in

15:33

cahoots against me. This is not

15:36

America, et cetera, et cetera. The

15:38

problem is

15:39

that he's

15:42

going to come out of this trial

15:44

that starts next week with

15:47

additional holdings, like the summary

15:49

judgment holding that we got this

15:51

week, that he committed fraud. As

15:54

you know, I've been writing about this. I wrote

15:56

a big Brookings report in 2021. Another

16:01

one before the

16:05

AG brought her case,

16:09

you know, the fraud is so obvious.

16:11

You testified to Congress about it. I mean, this

16:13

is really, you blew the lid off of this,

16:16

Michael. So the

16:18

fraud is so obvious

16:21

with the disparate values. As

16:23

the judge said in his opinion, it was very

16:25

eloquent. If your apartment is 10,000 square

16:27

feet, 11,000 square feet, okay, maybe you could

16:30

make an argument,

16:32

I'm going to count the closets and the balconies,

16:35

I'll go up to 12,000. You

16:37

can't go up to 30,000. It's

16:39

objective truth. And

16:41

those kinds of valuations on

16:44

his properties, on 40 Wall Street,

16:47

on the 7th Springs estate, over

16:50

and over again, increasing

16:53

by 400% and

16:56

more the value of some of these properties.

17:00

You know, that is

17:02

going to be a milestone to him when

17:05

he gets out of his base, when he gets

17:07

out of the primaries, it's going to be one

17:09

more. Those same bricks weigh

17:12

him down. They

17:15

constitute his dealing with the general

17:17

public. So it's

17:19

going to have a mixed effect, short-term

17:22

sugar high, long-term

17:25

diabetic political crash.

17:29

Well, that's one way certainly to put it. So

17:32

what doesn't make sense then? And

17:34

you're 100% correct that he has

17:37

a locked-in

17:39

base of 30% of the electorate, at least

17:41

the Republican

17:45

electorate, that no matter

17:47

what he does, they're not moving away from

17:49

him. It doesn't make a difference. He could, as

17:52

he said, shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue

17:54

and still be

17:57

completely supported

17:59

by

17:59

So the question that I

18:02

have for you, especially

18:04

now in light of the

18:06

fraud allegation, the civil

18:08

fraud lawsuit that

18:10

has just been ruled on by Judge and

18:12

Goron, which takes away

18:15

the liability

18:17

portion of the trial, the bench trial,

18:19

the

18:20

question becomes then,

18:22

how is it possible? How?

18:26

That 46% of the country, according to a

18:30

recent poll, are

18:33

favored to vote for Biden

18:35

if the election was today and 46% of

18:39

the country for Donald Trump. There

18:41

is a statistic dead

18:43

even between the two of them.

18:46

How is it possible? Even

18:48

worse? Even worse,

18:50

Michael. There was a Washington

18:53

Post poll this week. It's an outlier.

18:56

The Post itself discounted the ball

18:59

that Trump can point up

19:01

on Biden.

19:05

It's a combination, in my view,

19:08

it's a combination of multiple

19:11

factors. We

19:13

live in a moment,

19:18

whether you like it or not, when

19:20

there's extreme

19:25

disappointment in government. Biden,

19:30

who has done a superb job,

19:33

does not get

19:35

the credit he deserves from

19:38

many in a cranky public. So

19:41

some of it is about Biden.

19:44

Some of it is this very loyal

19:46

core. Trump has very strong

19:49

intensity. Some of

19:51

it is the fact that the choice has not

19:53

really crystallized for people. We've

19:55

had three elections that have been referenda

19:58

on Trump. And in all of them,

20:00

there's been a lot of hand wringing

20:02

and worry what will happen

20:05

in the end of the day. And in all three

20:07

of them, the American people have really overwhelmingly

20:10

rejected him. 2018 was a

20:12

referendum and he suffered

20:15

massive losses, including in Congress.

20:21

2020, of course, he was on the ballot, huge

20:24

national vote margin, closer on

20:26

a state by state basis.

20:29

And then 2022, he put these crazy

20:32

candidates, Doug Mastriano,

20:35

Pennsylvania Governor, Kerry

20:37

Lake, Arizona Governor, Secretary

20:40

of State, election denier candidates,

20:43

and they were totally repudiated.

20:45

It was another election on Trump, another

20:48

referendum on Trump. So I think,

20:51

as Biden says, your choice

20:53

is not between me and

20:55

the almighty, your choice is between me and

20:57

the other guy. And when it becomes

20:59

clear that the choice is

21:01

between Biden and Trump, people are going to pick

21:04

Biden. And in fact, there's some brand

21:06

new polling out, Michigan, Pennsylvania,

21:09

Wisconsin, the Save My

21:11

Country action fund just has

21:13

polling out. And in all

21:16

of those places, Biden

21:18

is beating Trump

21:22

outside of the margin

21:24

of error. So the closest

21:26

is Pennsylvania, where he beats him 48 to 45, 48 to 44 in Michigan, 48

21:28

to 44 in Wisconsin. So okay, so let's even say that

21:34

that's

21:36

right. The fact that there's still 48

21:40

to 44

21:41

with a margin of error, probably plus

21:44

or minus five.

21:46

This is a this is a real horse race

21:48

that's going on. Now, I say that

21:51

because you're

21:53

talking about a former

21:56

president who's been

21:58

impeached twice. Legitimately

22:02

impeach twice. I don't have to tell you. You worked

22:04

on one of those impeachment. Yes,

22:07

I did. Impeach

22:09

twice, indicted four

22:11

times, 91 counts

22:14

pending against him, charged

22:17

with civil sexual assault,

22:20

being charged for, well, let's

22:23

see, Trump University, his businesses

22:26

shut down for fraud, his

22:28

corporation, his company that

22:31

basically catapulted him

22:33

into the White House, shut down,

22:35

or I should say just charged with fraud.

22:38

You

22:39

have, let's see, what else is out there

22:42

on dear old Diaper Donald? You

22:45

know, you have his charitable

22:49

entity shut

22:51

down for fraud, his university

22:54

shut down for fraud,

22:56

and yet there's

22:58

still a horse race against

23:01

a guy who,

23:02

whether you like all of

23:04

his policies or not, whether you

23:06

have an issue with the migrants

23:08

that are now, you know, in the

23:11

United States, whether or not you think

23:13

gasoline is still too high, or

23:16

that the interest rates are

23:18

currently being felt by Americans

23:20

is too high. I get all that.

23:23

But how do you compare

23:27

what I would say a ripe banana

23:30

with one that's

23:32

fucking black and moldy,

23:35

and when you peel it away from

23:37

its skin, it slops

23:39

in your hand like just like

23:42

leeching? How can the

23:44

two of them be comparable? Which

23:47

one do you, which one will make you

23:49

sick, and which one do you want to eat? You

23:52

know, people,

23:57

people do not, unfortunately,

24:02

realize that

24:10

that is the situation. They think

24:12

that the opposing

24:14

candidate is also not the freshest

24:17

produce on the stand.

24:20

That is an issue. They don't appreciate.

24:23

Biden is like a fine puddle

24:26

of wine. He has

24:29

utilized his age and his

24:31

experience to

24:35

really have one of the most

24:39

effective administrations

24:44

in modern presidential history. He's done

24:46

such a good job these three

24:51

years that he's been

24:53

in office.

24:55

Why is he not getting the credit for it,

24:57

Norm? He's not

24:59

the best

25:00

in selling himself. American

25:04

people are still feeling the pain of the

25:10

pandemic, the inflation that followed,

25:13

the dislocations,

25:17

the income inequality in our

25:19

country. And

25:23

then you have this 30% that

25:26

is constantly pumping lives

25:29

into the

25:31

body politic. And

25:34

so, you know, it's a

25:37

treacherous political situation.

25:39

It's a very evenly balanced

25:42

country. Despite

25:44

Biden walking away

25:46

with a popular vote

25:50

mandate

25:52

in 2020, the election came down to a little

25:55

more than 40,000 people in three

25:57

states in the electoral college.

25:59

So that is, you know,

26:04

that's a structure in our country. If,

26:07

think of it, Michael, if 21,000

26:11

people had switched their votes in three states,

26:16

it's like a large basketball

26:18

arena. Basically

26:21

the, you know, a little more than

26:24

Madison Square Garden or the Barclays

26:26

Center in New York or the Staples Center

26:28

in California where my team, the Lakers,

26:30

play. If 21,000

26:33

people in those three states had flipped

26:35

their votes, Trump would have gotten it in the second term.

26:38

Okay.

26:40

And yet,

26:42

you have one of those two individuals,

26:45

and I'm referring to Donald Trump, who

26:49

openly states

26:51

that on day number one, I don't give a shit

26:54

if your problem,

26:56

if you, you know, you're unhappy, again, about

26:59

the economy, about migrants, about

27:01

so on and so forth.

27:03

Under the Trump administration, the Dobbs

27:05

decision was determined. We lost

27:08

Roe versus Wade. Plain and

27:10

simple. Under the Trump administration,

27:13

you had the greatest income

27:16

inequality in

27:19

United States history. You

27:21

have the same guy who's

27:24

telling you, this is not Michael

27:26

Cohen spewing it. This is not

27:29

Norm Eisen spewing it.

27:31

This is Donald Trump saying

27:33

it loud and crystal fucking clear.

27:38

If I am reelected president of the

27:40

United States of America on day number

27:43

one, I am going to rewrite

27:45

the Constitution. And

27:47

he's referring the Constitution of the United

27:50

States of America, not his Constitution

27:52

for hamburgers, steak, and,

27:54

you know, McDonald's and KFC. He's

27:58

going to rewrite the Constitution. of the United

28:00

States of America, as if this mental

28:03

midget would actually

28:05

be able to do something like that. What's

28:09

he gonna do? In crayons? He's gonna write

28:11

it on the back of stolen top secret

28:13

documentation? Really?

28:17

And what is it that he intends to do? No,

28:21

look, you're a lawyer. I mean, you

28:23

are part of that brain trust behind

28:25

the Brookings Institute. What do

28:27

you do when the guy tells you

28:30

in advance that he's going to rewrite

28:32

the Constitution for the sole purpose

28:35

of stripping the

28:37

tripartite system

28:39

of its powers?

28:41

He's going to remove the power of the

28:43

judiciary. He's gonna

28:45

remove the power of

28:47

the legislative branch so

28:50

that there is no longer three

28:52

co-equal branches of

28:54

government, and he's going

28:56

to assign

28:57

all power to the executive

29:00

branch. Now,

29:01

most people, when they hear that,

29:04

they look at Trump as the buffoon that he

29:06

is, and they say, it's

29:08

just stupid Donald talk.

29:11

It can happen.

29:12

You know how many people I have heard over

29:15

the years talk about that Roe can

29:17

never be overturned? And

29:19

look at what happened. Trump put it past

29:22

him for a second to try and

29:24

figure it out, even if he does

29:26

it, and he strips them, and then

29:28

he uses the military in order

29:31

to ensure that it stays stripped.

29:33

And any judge that's gonna vote against

29:36

him, he's gonna lock them up too. You know

29:38

why? Because he would have the ability

29:40

to do that. So

29:42

what are we doing? We are now transforming,

29:45

literally, on day number one, the

29:48

United States of America from a democracy

29:50

to an autocracy. And if that doesn't

29:53

scare the living shit out of you, listen,

29:55

Norm, let me be clear. I'm

29:58

on this witness list for... the

30:00

upcoming trial, the New York attorney general's

30:02

case, also on the witness list for

30:04

the Manhattan district attorney's list.

30:07

I happen to also be on the Donald

30:09

Trump enemies list. Yes. And

30:11

with all due respect, you

30:14

know who else is on it?

30:17

You? Yes. He's

30:19

no, he's no fan of yours. He just tweeted

30:23

about me. Norm Isaac is leading,

30:26

leading the cam Yes. Yes.

30:30

You enjoyed so I'm sure he's a

30:33

you enjoyed the hate. He's

30:36

probably a hate listener to this

30:38

podcast. Jason Miller probably

30:40

clips the Jason

30:44

Miller probably clips the highlights of the

30:46

podcast for him every week. Like,

30:48

all right. Well, Jason, if you listen and fuck

30:51

you.

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32:15

So anyway, my point being, what

32:17

do you think happens on day number two?

32:20

They show up like under the old Stalin

32:22

regime.

32:23

He'll have an SS group

32:26

that will show up to the house, kick

32:28

your door down, bag your tag, you

32:30

throw you into the back of a black van,

32:32

and next thing you know you're in Guantanamo

32:35

Bay. And you tell me, first

32:37

of all, Americans by the Constitution

32:40

a lot not allowed to be held in Guantanamo.

32:42

Yeah? Under whose Constitution?

32:45

Not under the Donald J. Trump Constitution.

32:48

He could do whatever he wants. He could throw you

32:50

into maximum security. In

32:53

fact, he doesn't even need to have a trial.

32:55

You know why? He's the king. The

32:58

king could do whatever the king wants. Fuck

33:00

it. You know what, Norm? You said so

33:02

many bad things about me. I'm

33:05

just gonna, we're just gonna shoot you right here.

33:08

Right? Public execution for

33:10

those people who have been, who

33:12

have wronged me. The king,

33:15

your king, Donald Trump. And I'm not

33:17

joking. I know it sounds hyperbolic.

33:19

It sounds very

33:22

Handmaid's Tale-ish,

33:25

dystopian. I'm telling

33:27

you,

33:28

I know what's going on inside this guy's head.

33:30

He sees the possibility

33:33

of ultimate power,

33:35

and he's going for it. Well, should

33:38

he be successful, and we can't discount

33:40

the prospect that Donald Trump will be

33:43

re-elected, what will

33:45

happen is a battle

33:49

between the rule of Trump and the rule

33:51

of law. And we've

33:54

already seen that

33:56

the courts, have

34:00

resisted him. He lost, most

34:03

famously, 62 out of 63 cases

34:06

trying to overturn the election in 2020. That

34:11

came on top of a series of other places

34:13

where he's been limited by the courts. I

34:15

believe in the courts,

34:18

I believe in rule

34:20

of law, and I think

34:22

there will be a ferocious pushback in

34:24

the states. The state

34:28

attorneys general backed by the

34:31

governors and other actors

34:34

in the states will have a critically important

34:36

role to play, and you

34:38

and I will have an important role to play, Michael.

34:40

We're not going anywhere. We're going to fight. I

34:43

take inspiration from one of my teachers,

34:47

the famous,

34:50

perhaps the most famous dissident

34:53

in communist times, Vaclav

34:56

Havel. He didn't leave the country. When

34:59

I went to the Czech Republic

35:02

representing the

35:04

United States, as you know, I wrote about

35:06

this in my first book, The Last Palace. My mother

35:09

was the Czechoslovak Jew.

35:11

She was deported, very proud,

35:13

patriotic Czechoslovak, deported

35:16

to Auschwitz. She returned to try to rebuild

35:19

the country. When communism came, she left.

35:21

She'd seen enough by 1949.

35:24

She'd seen that movie. She knew what the ending

35:26

was. Havel stayed and

35:29

fought, and there will be an

35:32

important place for the

35:35

loyal opposition, loyal not to

35:38

Trump, loyal not to any person, but

35:41

loyal to the American Constitution.

35:44

But, you know, it's going

35:47

to be a battle. I don't believe

35:50

that that will go right to that

35:52

dystopian fantasy.

35:54

It's going to be more of petty

35:57

things where, oh, you're going to get an

35:59

audit. Michael Cohen,

36:01

congratulations, the IRS is auditing

36:04

you. Oh, Michael Cohen,

36:07

you know, the company that carries your podcast,

36:10

they just got a tax audit. Suddenly

36:15

the, you know, you're going

36:18

to find that any,

36:22

when you go to, maybe when you

36:24

go through the airport, every time you go through

36:27

the airport, you get searched, you

36:29

know, you're on that list. It happens

36:31

to me now. It's going to be the petty

36:33

thing, Michael. It's going to be the petty thing. No,

36:35

I don't think so. Yeah. Well,

36:38

let's just, you know, you don't know, let's

36:40

agree. Yeah. Let's agree to disagree

36:42

on this one, because I'm telling you, that's

36:45

not what he's looking for. This isn't only

36:47

about petty, you know,

36:50

paybacks, you know,

36:52

by Donald. He wants the full and ultimate

36:54

power of the United States government.

36:57

And by stripping the judiciary,

37:00

by stripping the legislature of

37:02

their co-equal rights to power

37:05

and to control, you know,

37:07

checks and balances over the other,

37:10

you know, branches. Play it out. And

37:13

play it out. What happens when he does

37:15

that

37:16

and he goes to court and there's a court

37:18

order and it's affirmed by the Supreme Court telling

37:20

him, you can't do X, Y, or Z. And

37:23

then he does whatever that is. Let's

37:25

say it is. Oh, okay. Hold

37:27

on. Hold on. Let me answer that. Let's

37:30

take it piece by piece. So most important.

37:32

What happens? Can I say one thing about this

37:34

conversation? This is the most

37:37

important conversation and

37:40

the most neglected conversation

37:42

because nobody wants to face the

37:44

possibility that Donald Trump

37:46

will be reelected. But we do have

37:48

to face that. We have to take it very seriously.

37:51

Go ahead. Okay.

37:53

So you said what happens when he's before

37:55

the Supreme Court and they're

37:58

making a ruling onto it.

37:59

By the time that the case hits the Supreme

38:02

Court, even if it's expedited to

38:04

the point of one week,

38:06

one week,

38:08

right, that before it gets to the Supreme

38:10

Court because the king has demanded

38:12

that it immediately be looked at, he's

38:15

already taken full and total control

38:17

over the United States military or

38:20

has empowered, we'll call them

38:22

the brown shirts, like an SS,

38:25

to turn around and to start doing his

38:27

bidding. And why does he feel he's allowed

38:29

to do that? Because he is

38:31

the king and these people want

38:34

that power, they want to be in his

38:36

good grace, no different than the

38:38

way the Wagner group used to be for Putin.

38:41

So now all of a sudden, he

38:43

gives a phone call to the Supreme Court

38:45

judge, makes no difference which one

38:47

that it is, and he says, hey

38:50

judge, it's me, King Donald.

38:54

There's a document that just came to you, it's

38:57

regarding the total and absolute

38:59

control pursuant to executive

39:01

order

39:03

by me, you're

39:05

going to agree with

39:07

it, you're going to approve it. And

39:10

they turn around and they say, listen, you know, I'm not really

39:12

sure that's the way, knock, knock, knock on

39:14

the door is what they hear. He

39:16

goes, are you sure?

39:19

Are you sure

39:22

that that's not the way you see it? Hello?

39:26

SS,

39:28

SS,

39:29

open the door now,

39:31

right? And they make their presence known.

39:34

They'll beg them and tag them and who's

39:37

going to stop them?

39:38

Tell me who's going to stop them. This

39:42

is the way the man is thinking right now. He's

39:45

thinking about becoming the Vladimir

39:47

Putin, the Mohammed bin Salman,

39:50

the Kim Jong Un of the United

39:52

States of America. And I'm going to tell you, the

39:54

ones who really should be fearing him the most

39:57

are the same fucking idiots.

40:00

and let me rephrase that because Jason Miller's

40:02

listening, the same fucking idiots

40:05

that are paying $100,000 a plate to

40:08

hang out at Mar-a-lardo, whether it's

40:10

for Rudy Kaludi, Drunken Giuliani's

40:13

fundraiser, or just to give Donald money

40:16

into the millions and millions of dollars,

40:19

the first person that he's showing

40:21

up to take their money, all of the

40:23

one-tenth of 1%. Jeff Bezos,

40:26

kiss your money goodbye. Elon Musk,

40:29

have a nice fucking day. Zuckerberg,

40:32

Bill Gates, Warren Buffett,

40:34

he's gonna seize their money the same

40:37

way Mohammed bin Salman did it. And

40:39

you know what he's thinking in his mind, Norm? If

40:42

they were able to do it, I

40:44

can do it.

40:45

Well, he is not

40:49

dealing with a legal system like

40:51

that of Saudi Arabia.

40:55

There is a strong

40:58

rule of law tradition in

41:01

the United States. And

41:03

I think that what you're gonna see

41:05

is a kind of, and

41:09

I haven't really thought it through myself.

41:12

I haven't modeled it like

41:14

I did, you know, before the 2020 election, I

41:17

spent months and months, and you were the first

41:19

to encourage me to do this. You

41:21

told me he's not gonna leave the White House, so you better

41:23

think it through, and I did. So

41:25

I haven't truly thought this situation

41:28

through, but I will say that

41:31

he's gonna face furious resistance.

41:36

And it is not at all clear

41:38

to me that the

41:41

Secret Service will go along. They've sworn

41:43

an oath. You know, if there's a court

41:45

order to arrest Donald Trump for contempt,

41:48

for refusing to abide

41:50

by an order of the Supreme Court, I'm

41:54

not at all certain

41:56

that sworn

42:00

law enforcement officers of the United

42:02

States will obey him. He has not

42:05

yet created a cult of personality

42:07

Michael. Why did he not

42:10

stage a military coup? You know, he looked

42:12

into it. Does he have the authority to seize

42:14

the voting machines? But the military

42:17

led by Mark Esper and General Milley

42:20

would have been loyal to their oath, not to Donald

42:22

Trump. So he could- Okay. And what

42:24

he would do- He got these lawyers- The next time around? Right.

42:27

So I just want to let you know the way that he views

42:29

what that happened there, that

42:31

was a practice run. Now he knows

42:34

what he did wrong. And so this time

42:36

he'll put in Michael Flynn.

42:39

And Michael Flynn is not going to be a General

42:42

Milley. He's going to turn around and he's

42:44

going to do what his boss says, what the

42:46

king says. You know, I like the fact that, you know,

42:48

you always have been, you're a man

42:51

who stands behind the rule of law and

42:53

you believe in the rule of law. How

42:55

did the rule of law work out for Michael Cohen?

42:58

When Donald Trump ordered his bloviated

43:01

dirt bag, Bill Barr,

43:04

to violate a

43:05

US citizen's First Amendment constitutional

43:08

right and remained him back to prison

43:11

because he wouldn't waive his First Amendment

43:13

rights. How did that rule of law

43:15

work out?

43:16

Well, you- Yeah, exactly. So when

43:19

I'm warning you, and when I'm warning you,

43:21

when I'm warning you and everybody else

43:23

that's listening,

43:24

that too was a practice run,

43:28

as was January 6th.

43:30

He now knows the crops, right,

43:34

in the concrete.

43:37

He knows what needs to be done in

43:39

order to ensure a

43:41

better likelihood of success

43:44

on round two. But

43:46

remember what happened, Michael. Daniel

43:48

went to court. I remember

43:51

it vividly because I got

43:54

bumped off of racial

43:57

man out of show as a result. Your

43:59

Brilliant lawyer, Danya Perry, went to

44:02

court. And she got

44:04

an order from the judge saying, you can't do

44:06

that in America. And

44:09

they, uh. Norm, you missed it. I'm

44:11

so sorry. You're missing the point. The point

44:14

here is they did

44:16

do it. They did. You can't undo

44:18

what was done. The fact that it

44:20

was overturned, I get that. But

44:24

it was done. And that's

44:26

my point. Yes, the terrible things

44:29

will happen. But yes, the

44:31

courts will push back. It will be

44:34

like an internal civil

44:37

war, I think without the shooting. But

44:40

it's going to be an internal

44:42

battle between the rule of Trump and

44:44

the rule of law. I'm not denying

44:46

that every day he's going to say to his

44:48

team, how far can we

44:51

push on rule of law

44:53

today, on democracy and rule of law?

44:55

And they will push as far as they think they

44:57

can get away with. He won't be stranded

45:00

this time around by the

45:03

Gary Combs

45:05

of the world who will try to hold him back,

45:08

right? That's

45:10

right. Well, unfortunately,

45:14

the point I was trying to make here is yet

45:16

I still don't understand how

45:18

he has that 30% plus

45:21

of that Republican base and how

45:23

the numbers could still remain close

45:26

when I just laid out for the last 25 minutes

45:29

the danger that this man poses

45:32

to the future of democracy to

45:34

the United States.

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46:36

You know, let me move on because I could spend the entire

46:38

hour on this.

46:40

So how do you think, Norm, that this affects

46:43

Trump from a criminal defense standpoint?

46:45

Right? I mean, in just

46:47

security, you referred

46:49

to the ruling as

46:52

a tipping point. So

46:54

do me a favor, explain to my

46:56

listeners how so, and in

46:58

what way could this reverberate?

47:04

Well, you

47:07

know,

47:09

this is

47:12

the—the four criminal prosecutions

47:15

of Donald Trump are just charges

47:17

at this point. They haven't been tried. The

47:19

first trial will be in March of 2024. The

47:22

next one will be in May of 2024 on

47:25

the federal democracy crimes

47:27

and the federal document

47:29

crimes, respectively,

47:31

the classified document crimes,

47:34

alleged.

47:36

But here you have an actual judgment.

47:39

A court has said, civilly, not criminally,

47:41

but a court has said, Donald Trump, you

47:43

committed fraud and there's going to be more

47:46

findings. It is going to have

47:48

an effect

47:51

on those who are not in the 30 percent.

47:55

I think it will erode

47:57

some non-core support.

47:59

More importantly,

48:01

it's devastating

48:03

to Trump. It undermines his financial

48:06

base. If his companies are being liquidated,

48:09

it's

48:11

going to affect his cash.

48:15

It hits him

48:17

where he lives. You know this better

48:19

than I. His

48:22

business, his name

48:24

on the business, his brand,

48:26

the Trump organization, that's

48:29

his pride and joy. That's the core of his identity.

48:32

The judge is literally ordering

48:34

a

48:35

set of

48:37

steps that will result in

48:40

Donald Trump's name being removed

48:42

from many of his most prized assets. That's

48:45

not just financially devastating, that's

48:47

emotionally devastating. So

48:50

I think it's a body blow. And

48:53

even Donald Trump cannot continue

48:55

to withstand these body blows. I

48:57

believe it's going to be very likely followed

48:59

by convictions, criminal convictions,

49:02

and you're going to see a much diminished Donald Trump

49:05

if he is the nominee coming out of

49:07

the Republican convention. You know,

49:09

some polls suggest that once he's convicted,

49:12

Michael, Biden leads him

49:14

by 10 points, people really

49:17

draw a distinction between being accused

49:19

and being convicted and these civil

49:21

fraud verdicts are like a down

49:23

payment on being convicted. So

49:25

it's a tipping point. It's very bad

49:28

for Donald Trump.

49:30

So then it's nice that you, myself,

49:33

Lincoln project, the whole slew,

49:36

my just touch, I

49:39

guess we're all part of that, huh? We're all

49:41

part of trying to ensure that Joe Biden

49:43

ends up flipping that where he's a

49:46

minimum of 10 points ahead. That there's

49:48

not even a close race here. If

49:51

in fact, it's another Trump Biden

49:53

to election, you

49:55

would agree with that. Um, yeah,

49:58

I, you know, we.

50:02

My goal is not

50:05

an electoral one. When

50:07

I write and do this stuff,

50:10

that's for the American people to

50:13

decide. My goal is to

50:16

shed light upon these urgent

50:19

policy questions. They're the most urgent

50:21

policy questions for our democracy

50:23

today. Like what is the meaning

50:26

of these fraud verdicts?

50:28

Did Donald Trump

50:31

expose himself to criminal

50:34

liability? How serious is that

50:36

liability? What are the weaknesses?

50:38

You know, every time I write something,

50:40

when I do my major pieces on the

50:43

big prosecution memos, I'm proud of my

50:46

record. I called all four of these

50:48

prosecutions in advance, often years

50:50

in advance. And,

50:53

you know, like, often was able

50:55

to analyze exactly what the charges

50:57

would be. When many people were saying he'll never

50:59

get charged, he's deaf, long, done, like,

51:01

no, he's going to get charged. Here's the case.

51:05

And the civil similar, similar

51:09

thoughts with the similar analysis with

51:11

the civil cases. And, you

51:13

know, I'm trying to elucidate for

51:15

today.

51:16

Um, the, the, the

51:19

electoral questions are separate questions.

51:21

I leave that to the

51:23

political people and ultimately to

51:25

the wisdom of, of the

51:27

American voters, as I say, 2018, 2020,

51:29

2022, they have repudiated the nightmare scenario,

51:37

the Kafka ask scenario that

51:39

you described darkness at noon. Arthur

51:42

Kessler's book about this

51:45

knock on the door. The American

51:47

voters understand that. Yes. You

51:49

and I and others elucidate

51:52

the facts. They understand

51:54

that that's what Donald Trump is about. They don't want

51:56

that kind of country, Michael. They don't

51:58

want that.

52:01

You know, by the way, that knock on the door,

52:03

that happened to my wife's grandfather.

52:06

In the middle of the night, they knocked on the door. My

52:09

mother-in-law, I think maybe she was five years old

52:11

at the time, knocked on the door. They took

52:13

her father. Somebody said that he

52:16

was anti-communist or whatever

52:18

was under Stalin. Next thing you know,

52:20

he's in a gulag where they killed him. And

52:23

he died there. Right? They

52:25

never saw him again. I don't even think they know where

52:27

the body ended up. This is the Kafka

52:30

scenario that I worry for every

52:32

single day here. And it's why I'm so

52:34

committed to doing what I'm doing. However,

52:37

I do have to say, well, you know what? I'll get to

52:39

that after. But what I wanted to say is

52:41

more, it's why I had made a statement

52:43

the other day on CNN and MSNBC,

52:47

where, you know, I know that government

52:49

keeps relying on me. I've now, I don't

52:51

know how many hundreds of hours of testimony

52:54

that I have provided being called

52:56

as a witness in two of these cases as

52:58

a key witness.

53:00

I'm concerned about my own safety.

53:02

I truly am. I'm concerned about not

53:04

only the safety of myself, but I'm

53:06

concerned about the safety of other Americans.

53:09

But before we jump into that, I want to say, because

53:11

you recently went on CNN and they brought

53:14

you on to discuss the GOP

53:16

lead House impeachment inquiry

53:19

into President Biden saying that,

53:21

and I'm going to quote,

53:23

Hunter is not in the White House.

53:25

And there's no showing the Biden who is

53:28

did anything meriting impeachment.

53:31

So do me a favor again, as a guy who

53:34

ran the impeachment against Donald

53:36

Trump,

53:37

would you discuss with me and my listeners

53:40

what you think is behind this push

53:42

to impeach Joe Biden other

53:45

than payback?

53:46

You know, the tragically, one

53:48

of our great political parties, the

53:51

grand old party, the GOP,

53:54

the Republican Party has

53:56

been taken over by the MAGA

53:58

mob this. 30% that

54:01

we're talking about. They

54:03

vote in primaries

54:06

and they vote the way Donald Trump tells them.

54:09

And privately, these people know that

54:13

what Trump wants, his

54:15

demands for revenge, he was impeached,

54:18

so now we got an impeached fine. He's

54:20

being prosecuted by DOJ, so now we

54:22

need to shut down the government to cut DOJ's

54:24

funding, including

54:27

to cut the funding for his cases.

54:29

They know that's wrong, but they're

54:32

COVID.

54:34

And they

54:37

are bowing to maggot. That's

54:39

what this impeachment is about. Donald Trump has

54:41

been very open. He was impeached. He wants

54:44

Biden to be impeached. There's no

54:46

legal basis to impeach. There's

54:48

no factual basis to impeach. Joe Biden

54:50

has not made a penny off of

54:53

Hunter Biden, and Hunter Biden has not been

54:55

shown to have broken any law

54:57

in his business dealings. And there's

54:59

no political basis because it's actually going to help

55:02

Biden. It's going to create sympathy for Biden.

55:04

Nevertheless, Trump wants it, so

55:07

the

55:11

McCarthy magma mob is

55:13

stampeding to do it. The

55:16

problem is

55:17

that

55:20

when you feed

55:22

the beast, it

55:25

only creates more appetite.

55:27

And no matter what McCarthy does, he

55:30

cannot satisfy these

55:32

magma mobsters

55:38

like Matt Gaetz.

55:41

So

55:43

now we are on the verge not

55:46

only of impeachment, but a government shutdown

55:48

to placate and pacify them. How

55:51

despicable? I mean, this is going

55:53

to have enough. It has an effect on real

55:56

people's lives. Congress is wasting

55:59

time on this.

55:59

when

56:03

they should be dealing

56:06

with helping Americans. So

56:08

I think

56:11

it's terrible, but that's what's happening. So let me

56:13

ask you this then. Do

56:14

you think that

56:16

Comer,

56:17

that Congressman Comer, or as I

56:19

like to call him, Comer Pyle,

56:21

really believes that Biden

56:23

has committed high crimes? Isn't he? It's like

56:25

fucking Comer Pyle. He's such a fucking

56:28

goober, right? Honestly, I

56:31

would love to punt-kick him right

56:34

in the middle. I can't stand

56:38

him. I would love to kick him right

56:40

in his hand. He deserves it.

56:43

Send him

56:45

over. No, I'm serious. I'm

56:47

talking about the way that my buddy, who was

56:49

the kicker for the New York Giants, see

56:52

if I can put him 30, 40 yards right

56:54

through the up-right. He was such an asshole.

56:57

Don't say that. No, he'll be advanced.

56:59

No, it's fair. It's

57:01

not about giving in here, Norm. It's not.

57:05

He's making a mockery out

57:07

of Congress. He's making a mockery

57:10

out of the position that he

57:12

was entrusted to sit

57:14

in in order to lead this country. He's

57:17

not leading the country. He's like

57:19

the pie-piper

57:21

of stupidity. And sometimes what

57:23

you need to do is you just got to give someone a kick

57:25

in the ass and they wake up schmuck.

57:28

Just fucking wake up. I know you just

57:30

mean that metaphorically. But I

57:32

learned this lesson from Havel. You

57:34

have to

57:35

fight. You fight with passion. But

57:38

you follow the principles of civil

57:40

disobedience. So even as a metaphor,

57:43

we never – There's

57:46

nothing like a good solid swift kick in the

57:48

ass. Let me just get back to my question. Go ahead. Let

57:51

me just give – let me get back to my question

57:53

here. Right? Do you really think that Comer

57:56

believes that Biden

57:58

has committed high crime?

57:59

I mean, it

58:02

is, I don't care what anybody says. My

58:04

passion is coming from the insanity

58:08

that the entire hearing demonstrated.

58:11

So do me a favor, Norm. I'm going to

58:13

be quiet. Discuss this with me.

58:16

Well, the

58:21

so-called impeachment inquiry hearings

58:25

demonstrated that there is no legal

58:28

basis. There's no factual or

58:30

evidentiary basis. And

58:32

there's no political basis for

58:35

an impeachment

58:37

inquiry into Joe Biden,

58:40

led by Comer. Comer

58:45

pile. Comer. It

58:51

just is groundless. Let's start

58:53

with the legal basis. You

58:56

can't have an impeachment

58:58

inquiry. This is the law that

59:00

governs Congress.

59:02

You can't have an impeachment inquiry

59:05

without a vote of Congress. You can't call

59:07

it impeachment inquiry without

59:09

a vote of Congress. We, when we investigated

59:12

Trump legitimately for his shakedown,

59:15

gangster-like shakedown of President

59:18

Zelensky, where he withheld hundreds

59:21

of millions of dollars, and was Zelensky

59:23

was willing to falsely

59:25

attack Biden

59:28

and his political opponent, we

59:31

had a vote on the floor

59:33

of the House, and we had

59:35

a formal approval. So they

59:38

can't even call it legally. They can't

59:40

call what they're doing an impeachment inquiry. Number

59:44

two, there is no factual basis.

59:47

And even

59:50

their own witnesses, witness after witness,

59:53

admitted there's no evidence

59:55

right now that Joe Biden

59:58

took any money.

1:01:46

can't

1:02:00

stand him, a total asshole. But putting

1:02:03

all that aside, I couldn't

1:02:05

believe it. I was watching

1:02:07

and he's telling me, saying, no,

1:02:09

at this present time, based on the information

1:02:11

I see, I don't see

1:02:14

that an impeachment is

1:02:16

proper at this time. And he is their

1:02:18

witness. He is Gomer Pyle's

1:02:20

witness. It doesn't make any sense to me. And

1:02:23

you know what? Good for Dan Gollman. See,

1:02:25

I like Dan Gollman. I like

1:02:27

Jared Moskowitz. I love

1:02:29

Jamie Raskin. I mean, I love

1:02:31

these guys that are willing to get up and to fight.

1:02:34

And don't listen to a conversation to you. Point

1:02:36

of order, point of order, point of order, point of order.

1:02:40

Point of order. Fuck you. So he goes, I'm not

1:02:42

gonna stop and say something. I want to get a document

1:02:45

into the record. And so, and it is

1:02:47

just, to me, it's the way that you have

1:02:49

to deal with them. Because that's the way

1:02:52

that the Republicans are dealing

1:02:54

with the Democrats. They, their goal is to

1:02:56

shut them out of everything. You want to put a

1:02:59

document into the record? Nope. We're not gonna

1:03:01

allow it. Right? And so on. I

1:03:03

mean, he doesn't follow the rules

1:03:06

because they don't want to follow the rules.

1:03:08

Their whole goal is to

1:03:10

gaslight America into believing

1:03:13

that Joe Biden did something

1:03:15

wrong. Why? Well, because

1:03:18

it negates in their mind the fact

1:03:20

that Donald Trump did something wrong and

1:03:22

that Donald Trump is being held accountable

1:03:25

for what he did wrong. And they don't want to

1:03:27

see that. So you know what? The way that we,

1:03:29

the way that we point the finger, stop pointing

1:03:32

the finger at Donald Trump because we're

1:03:34

pointing the finger at your guy, Joe

1:03:37

Biden, who did the exact same thing. But

1:03:39

worse.

1:03:40

Right? But worse. Yeah.

1:03:43

Well, there's some very capable younger

1:03:46

Democratic members and, of

1:03:48

course, good friend of mine who, as you

1:03:50

know, I work closely with

1:03:53

on the impeachment,

1:03:57

on that first impeachment and it catapulted.

1:03:59

that he got out of it as I got out of

1:04:02

it because I

1:04:02

got to be friends

1:04:04

with you out of the impeachment.

1:04:07

And I'm a regular on your own. That's

1:04:09

true. That's

1:04:11

right. But if you know what, if

1:04:13

I ever make some of my money back and I end up getting

1:04:15

a boat, I

1:04:18

don't care how big, how small, I think I'm going to call my boat

1:04:20

impeachment. I was

1:04:22

thinking that I should have a boat. I

1:04:25

think I'm going to call my boat impeachment. I

1:04:28

was thinking that I should have

1:04:30

a, I'm so identified with that

1:04:32

impeachment that I should have a new snack

1:04:34

food, impeachment,

1:04:37

a little box of mint. I

1:04:39

have them. I have them. I

1:04:41

have them. It's funny that you say that from here. I'm going to

1:04:43

even show you. They're not impeachments. It's called

1:04:46

indictments. And by the way,

1:04:48

they're delicious.

1:04:52

And

1:04:55

the mints, yeah, the mints, I'm going

1:04:57

to start producing them for my political

1:04:59

beatdown and for Maya Culp. I'm going to have a little

1:05:02

bit, but I want to get serious on something though, because

1:05:04

I want to, and I want to switch gears since we don't have a

1:05:06

lot of time left.

1:05:08

I want to switch gears and I want to start talking briefly

1:05:11

about the report that your

1:05:13

group States United Democracy

1:05:15

Center released. That says 23

1:05:18

election deniers

1:05:21

in 17 states serve

1:05:24

as either governor, attorney

1:05:26

general, or secretary of

1:05:28

state. That means a third

1:05:31

of the country has an

1:05:33

election denier in statewide

1:05:35

office overseeing their elections.

1:05:38

So do me a favor, discuss with my listeners

1:05:41

how election denial has grown

1:05:44

into an entire industry. And

1:05:47

what is at stake as it continues

1:05:49

to proliferate?

1:05:51

Well,

1:05:53

what is at stake with the

1:05:55

proliferation of election denial

1:05:58

is not a big deal.

1:05:59

nothing less than the future of American democracy

1:06:02

itself.

1:06:07

As Stalin

1:06:09

apocryphally pointed

1:06:13

out what's important,

1:06:16

he said, it's not who

1:06:18

votes, it's who counts the votes. I

1:06:22

quote that all the time. The election denial

1:06:24

movement, which was exploded

1:06:29

onto

1:06:31

the scene by Donald Trump in the attempted

1:06:34

election overturn of 2020, is about

1:06:38

declaring the losers

1:06:41

as the winners if you have the

1:06:44

political power to do it and if they're your

1:06:46

allies. Never mind

1:06:48

what the voters actually choose.

1:06:50

It's about the

1:06:53

political leaders choosing their voters

1:06:56

instead of the voters choosing political

1:06:58

leaders. It turns American

1:07:02

democracy upside down. It removes

1:07:05

the genuine choices

1:07:08

that give legitimacy to our

1:07:10

system. So if

1:07:14

Donald Trump is successful in returning

1:07:16

as president, if Kerry

1:07:18

Lake or Doug Mossiano can

1:07:20

be governor,

1:07:21

if a Mark Finchem can

1:07:25

be a Secretary

1:07:28

of State, an Abe Homiday,

1:07:30

an Attorney General, all of these Trump acolytes

1:07:33

who wanted to run for the state offices

1:07:35

to take a hold of the election system

1:07:38

and then

1:07:40

invert it, we're going to lose our democracy.

1:07:43

So as States United, we track

1:07:46

that trend across America.

1:07:49

The American people broadly repudiated

1:07:52

it in 2022, but you know, they people

1:07:57

can't make choices unless they know the facts.

1:07:59

So we try to

1:08:02

make the facts clear and that's

1:08:04

a tremendous danger. We got to keep a sharp

1:08:06

eye on it. Yeah, that is 100% sure. So

1:08:09

look, Norm, as the hour starts to

1:08:11

come to an end, I have one last question

1:08:13

here. This is a really important one and

1:08:15

it's something that

1:08:17

it's about something that you wrote because

1:08:19

I read it that you wrote this

1:08:21

really super interesting piece for

1:08:24

Just Security, another one of your

1:08:26

publications recently

1:08:28

that analyzed what you

1:08:31

call the anti-democracy

1:08:34

playbook. And you

1:08:36

assert that the rise of

1:08:38

Hungary's Viktor Orban who

1:08:40

has turned the country into this illiberal

1:08:43

state, something that is part of the

1:08:45

conversation that I know

1:08:47

is going on inside Trump's head, which is

1:08:50

why we had that long long diatribe

1:08:53

on what Trump is looking to do

1:08:55

that openly embraces autocracy,

1:08:59

right? Should serve as a warning to the United

1:09:01

States. So do me a favor

1:09:03

because this is really, in my opinion,

1:09:06

I think this is what it's all about.

1:09:08

Unpack for me.

1:09:10

What do you mean here and how

1:09:12

Tucker Carlson's interview with

1:09:14

him should send off alarm bells?

1:09:18

Well,

1:09:20

if you look at Orban's Hungary,

1:09:23

Michael, you'll see that this

1:09:26

issue that you and I were debating earlier,

1:09:29

we agree on the danger. I think we

1:09:31

were having a healthy debate on how we'll

1:09:33

unfold. That came

1:09:36

to pass in Hungary. And by the

1:09:38

way, it was

1:09:40

not the knock on the door. That's

1:09:42

not how Orban did it. He very

1:09:45

systematically when he returned to office,

1:09:47

like Donald Trump wants to return to office.

1:09:51

And this is why Tucker Carlson keeps

1:09:53

pushing more about the Orban model.

1:09:55

Tucker wants this here in the United States

1:09:57

also. When

1:10:01

Orban lost and then got back

1:10:04

in office, he systematically

1:10:06

dismantled

1:10:08

the sources of power,

1:10:11

the judiciary, the

1:10:15

media, the

1:10:18

police that could have

1:10:21

resisted him. And he

1:10:23

started replacing those,

1:10:26

the people in charge with his people slowly.

1:10:29

He changed the laws, he

1:10:31

built more popular support and he changed

1:10:34

the constitution. So he

1:10:36

bent the system to his autocratic

1:10:39

will and he unwound

1:10:41

democracy. Now what we have

1:10:44

in Hungary is he's proud. He says

1:10:46

it's illiberal democracy. It's

1:10:49

autocracy. Okay. It's

1:10:51

a version of dictatorship

1:10:54

where he has these powers.

1:10:57

The judiciary can't resist them

1:11:00

any longer. The constitution has

1:11:02

been changed. The press has been weakened.

1:11:05

And he doesn't do it with the knock on the door. Instead,

1:11:09

oh, you're under investigation. He says

1:11:11

you're under tax investigation.

1:11:14

You're under investigation for libel.

1:11:16

They have different kinds of libel laws there. And

1:11:19

sometimes the investigation

1:11:21

never comes to pass. You never

1:11:24

actually charge, but the pressure

1:11:26

of being investigated, he lets everybody

1:11:29

else know you're being investigated. People are scared

1:11:31

of you. That is the model

1:11:34

that Tucker Carlson and American

1:11:36

ultra conservatives, MAGA conservatives,

1:11:39

they're not real conservatives. That's

1:11:41

what they admire. And so I think

1:11:43

we should pay very close attention. That

1:11:46

video had over a hundred

1:11:49

million views on Twitter. Now

1:11:51

we know those numbers are somewhat

1:11:53

inflated every time somebody scrolls past

1:11:55

the councils of you. Still, that's

1:11:57

a very big number. We better watch out.

1:12:00

No, it's not a big number. It's an enormous

1:12:02

number and it's the

1:12:04

whole point

1:12:06

of our initial conversation.

1:12:10

Trump is looking at the Viktor

1:12:12

Orban's of the world. He's looking at the

1:12:15

Vladimir Putin's of the world, the Mohammed

1:12:17

bin Salman's, the Kim Jong Un's. He's

1:12:20

looking at the dictators, the monarchs,

1:12:22

supreme leaders, the rulers. This

1:12:25

is what he wants. And I'm not

1:12:27

saying he's going to copy the Viktor

1:12:30

Orban method, nor am I really

1:12:32

saying that he's going to go with the Kim Jong

1:12:34

Un method either of tying people

1:12:36

up to a tree and shooting a rocket at

1:12:39

them. He'll just do it all.

1:12:42

He'll use, he will

1:12:44

basically create a smorgasbord

1:12:47

of these ideas. He'll

1:12:49

throw it all into a basket and

1:12:51

he'll throw all of them out there and

1:12:53

whichever one sticks, he doesn't really

1:12:56

care because who's the beneficiary

1:12:58

at the end of the day to any success?

1:13:01

And the answer is him. He'll no

1:13:03

longer have to run for president. He'll

1:13:06

be president for life. He'll

1:13:08

have full and total control over

1:13:11

the United States because

1:13:14

he's going to give it to himself via executive

1:13:16

privilege. And

1:13:18

he will in essence see himself as

1:13:21

the king. And this is why

1:13:24

this election, and I say this on every

1:13:26

single podcast, whether it's May

1:13:28

Aculpa, Political Beatdown, I say

1:13:30

it on television, this

1:13:33

is the most important election

1:13:37

in maybe United States history. And

1:13:41

that's why it's so important to make sure that

1:13:43

every single person is fully

1:13:45

registered to vote. Make sure

1:13:48

you vote blue up and down the entire

1:13:50

card. And the only way in my opinion

1:13:52

to get rid of Trumpism, to get rid of

1:13:54

this Orban ideology,

1:13:56

this Putin ideology, this bin Salman

1:13:59

ideology, is you have to vote out those

1:14:02

people that

1:14:04

want it

1:14:05

because they see power in it for themselves. You

1:14:07

have to vote them out of office and only

1:14:10

consider people who want to do good

1:14:12

for America and

1:14:15

democracy, everybody

1:14:17

else

1:14:19

should just leave.

1:14:20

Well, you're right. There's

1:14:23

nothing that could be more important

1:14:26

than the referendum that's coming. It's

1:14:28

not just on Trump versus Biden. It's

1:14:31

on the future of democracy

1:14:35

in the United States. And because the United

1:14:38

States is the global leader,

1:14:41

it really is on the future

1:14:43

of democracy internationally.

1:14:46

Nothing could be more important than

1:14:48

that. I want to thank you as always

1:14:50

for having me and for your

1:14:52

very, very

1:14:55

great questions, Michael. I

1:14:57

really appreciate you.

1:14:59

And Norm, I appreciate you. I thank you,

1:15:01

Brookings Institute, all of your writings.

1:15:04

They helped me pass my day. They make me

1:15:07

smart. You make me smarter. So thank

1:15:09

you, Norm, for everything. Thanks, Michael. See

1:15:11

you soon, pal.

1:15:14

And now for today's Mayakolpa.

1:15:17

If one were to crawl inside Donald Trump's

1:15:19

brain right now, and boy, what a scary

1:15:22

fucking place that would be, they

1:15:24

would see a man unraveling in

1:15:26

real time. In just

1:15:28

one week's time, Trump saw

1:15:31

the dissolution of his vaunted

1:15:33

business empire while continuing

1:15:35

to fight, not one, not

1:15:37

two, not three, but four,

1:15:40

four separate criminal trials and

1:15:43

other pending civil litigations. You

1:15:46

see, Trump defines himself

1:15:48

in measures to others. In his

1:15:50

mind, there are winners and then there are

1:15:52

losers.

1:15:54

That's it.

1:15:55

Rich guys and then everyone else.

1:15:58

Now Trump is neither. Stripping

1:16:00

him of his self, it's the harshest

1:16:03

penalty that one could imagine, and

1:16:05

quite ingenious. It's

1:16:08

the one thing that truly rounds him up. Now,

1:16:11

I mean, now that he's no longer rich,

1:16:14

or won't be for very long, we

1:16:16

will see the absolute unfucking

1:16:19

raveling pick up speed. People

1:16:22

tolerated him because he was able

1:16:24

to manufacture an aura of success.

1:16:28

But with that stripped away, he's just

1:16:30

another failed businessman, a loser,

1:16:32

and worst of all, he's poor.

1:16:35

While we are witnessing, it's the slow

1:16:37

wheels of justice beginning to blind

1:16:40

Trump in its gears. This

1:16:42

ruling represents a milestone

1:16:45

in the long fight for justice and accountability,

1:16:48

and it will shake the Teflon Don's aura

1:16:51

to its core.

1:16:52

I am truly excited for what

1:16:54

comes next, but also apprehensive.

1:16:58

Why? Well, we watched this

1:17:00

week as the GOP enacted

1:17:02

a ridiculous Trump-ordered farce

1:17:05

to protect their dear leader.

1:17:07

He will not go down without a fight,

1:17:09

and will try and cause as much collateral

1:17:12

damage as possible on the way out.

1:17:15

We must not let him. We mustn't

1:17:17

be swayed by the hall of mirrors that

1:17:19

the GOP has created to deflect

1:17:22

us from reality. Luckily,

1:17:25

the hearings were beyond fucking absurd,

1:17:27

and the public saw that for themselves,

1:17:30

for exactly what it was. But

1:17:32

this is just the opening salvo, my

1:17:35

friends, and let's hope that Biden and

1:17:37

his team are

1:17:38

able to play rough and push stop,

1:17:40

and that's the Democrats that are finally

1:17:43

showing that they're ready, that they're ready to

1:17:45

step up and slap the

1:17:47

shit out of this nonsense. They need

1:17:49

to slap this bullshit down and

1:17:52

slap it down now, because

1:17:54

anything less than total commitment

1:17:57

will prove to be dangerous for President

1:17:59

Biden.

1:18:00

That's the scary period. And

1:18:02

as always, thanks for listening.

1:18:05

Mayor Culper is brought to you by Audio

1:18:07

Up, minus touch in LSJ Media,

1:18:10

written by Jimmy Chelinik. Our editor

1:18:12

and managing producer is Lisa Orkin. Our

1:18:15

executive producer is Jared Gustard,

1:18:17

Jimmy Chelinik, and myself Michael Cohen,

1:18:20

along with Phil Alberstad.

1:18:22

It may be a new day politically, but

1:18:24

nowadays the landscape is more confusing

1:18:26

than ever. Donald Trump may have

1:18:28

lost the battle for the presidency, but

1:18:30

in many ways, Trumpism is still winning

1:18:33

the war on the state and local

1:18:34

level. Mayor Culper

1:18:36

is here to help guide you through

1:18:38

the wilderness and keep you informed. And

1:18:40

let's face it, we all want Trump,

1:18:43

Rudy, and the rest of these vicious traitors

1:18:46

to see justice as folks. I promise

1:18:48

you, it's the moment. So stay tuned

1:18:50

as I guide you through the trust and

1:18:52

terms of the creative process that

1:18:55

will ultimately see them behind bars. May

1:18:57

and hope nothing but the hero. Thank

1:19:54

you.