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to the W. Welcome

1:55

to the old men of the three things

1:58

with JJ Riddick and Tim Legler. Legs

2:00

how we doing? I just let everybody know I'm

2:03

a little bit under the weather With

2:06

my voice and I apologize. I think

2:08

it might be just Woke

2:13

up this morning at 415 to

2:15

get to a 6 a.m. Flight in India and

2:17

I'm I'm back. I'm

2:19

here back in back in the studio. Um,

2:21

first of all, I want to talk we're

2:23

talk three series We're gonna talk Denver, Minnesota

2:26

Indiana, New York, okay see Dallas,

2:29

but You called

2:31

game three in Minnesota

2:34

Yeah, man. Look at you. You're just you're

2:36

a legend in all facets. I think how

2:38

was that for you? It

2:41

was awesome I love calling games. I used to I

2:43

called a bunch I mean over the first time we

2:45

have for my career at ESPN I called a ton

2:47

of games been less and less over the last, you

2:49

know, ten years or so I love doing them. This

2:51

was a big spot great game to call on, you

2:54

know, unfortunately for Minnesota that You

2:56

know, there was no energy for them in that game

2:58

It was interesting because you know going into that game

3:02

Minnesota's up to oh they come home

3:06

We all witnessed a complete

3:08

domination and suffocation Defensively

3:10

is what we all saw it in game two So

3:13

we're wondering how they're gonna how Denver is gonna get

3:15

back into this series How are they gonna be able

3:17

to you know, run their office generate their offense? You

3:20

know Mike Malone said before the game. He

3:23

was much more concerned about their

3:25

offense than he was their defense And

3:28

and how they were gonna score against that team and

3:30

then they come out and they just take it right

3:32

to him Yeah, JG. I've never actually felt worse For

3:36

a group of about 20,000 people that were in that

3:38

building Just because they were

3:40

ready to blow the roof off the place.

3:42

You could feel the vibe all day in

3:44

the city I was out and

3:46

about you could just see how ready this city

3:49

was, you know to win their first home game

3:51

in the series To get up

3:53

3-0 probably put a stranglehold on the

3:55

series And Denver never gave that

3:58

a chance and they just never had an opportunity

4:00

entire second half. The building

4:02

was dead. Denver, obviously at one point

4:04

built up a 30 point lead. They win the game. And

4:07

then obviously that leads us to yesterday

4:09

and the response that we were expecting

4:11

to get out of Minnesota in game

4:13

four. Let's

4:16

talk about that offense. Let's talk about some

4:18

of the adjustments that Michael Malone made in

4:21

games three and four. What did,

4:23

what did you see both

4:25

in game three and then yesterday? I

4:27

thought in game, I thought yesterday in particular was,

4:30

was important for me because I almost expected that

4:32

kind of response from Denver in game three. Like

4:34

you knew that you were going to get their

4:36

absolute best punch and Minnesota didn't

4:39

play very well. So it was a combination of

4:41

a perfect storm and Denver has the big win.

4:43

So yesterday I thought was going to be more

4:45

indicative maybe of how the rest of this series

4:47

will go. They

4:49

got back to the basics. I

4:52

thought their entire offensive operation in

4:54

game four was just

4:57

utilizing two man game

4:59

with a lot of times an empty

5:01

side of the floor and making very

5:03

simple reads out of it. You

5:05

know, Jamal Murray bounced

5:07

back in a huge way in these last

5:09

two games. You cannot give him enough credit.

5:12

I mean, he let out, he did not

5:14

play well in the first two games. He

5:16

had the controversy surrounding him. You know, was

5:18

he going to be suspended? Wasn't he, he

5:20

wasn't, he came in, he's public enemy. Number

5:22

one, going into those two games. You cannot

5:24

say enough about the way he bounced back

5:26

sensational offensively in game three, you know, picked

5:28

his spots in game four, but the times

5:30

that he was great in game four allowed

5:32

them to keep separation with Minnesota, but it

5:34

was basic basketball. JJ, they got back to

5:37

playing with poise and being strong

5:39

and being sure and not

5:41

being weak with the basketball, not catching the

5:43

ball at advantageous spots on the floor for

5:45

Minnesota. They got the pace back. Michael Malone

5:48

told us before game three, the number one

5:50

thing he was looking for, have the ball

5:52

cross half court in three seconds. And

5:54

they did a lot of that. And what that

5:56

does is get Minnesota off of

5:59

them, create some space, back them up

6:01

a little bit. And now you

6:03

could play real basketball where you're not just

6:05

fighting for your life to handle the ball

6:07

and getting stripped the way they were in

6:09

game two. Once they got Minnesota back

6:11

on their heels over half court, now they could go

6:13

into their stuff. Their screening was significantly

6:16

better, but it was basic reads and

6:18

guys not trying to do more than

6:20

they were capable of off the bounce

6:23

and making Minnesota pay for their overreaction

6:25

to things. Chris

6:27

passes from one side of the floor to the

6:29

other ball reversals much stronger with

6:31

the ball off the dribble. But I think

6:34

they just all simplified how they were playing.

6:36

Make the quick read. You know, Minnesota's got length.

6:38

They're going to jump in your passing lanes. They're

6:40

going to jump in your driving lanes. They're going

6:42

to show you all kinds of arms and activity.

6:44

You can't take that extra dribble. You've got to

6:47

pick it up before you get yourself in a

6:49

position. You can't get it out of there. And

6:51

I just thought they did a great job of

6:53

that in both games where that ball was precisely

6:55

kicked out one pass and

6:57

then a second pass. In some cases it

6:59

was, you know, directly cross court to an

7:01

open man, whether he shot it or attacked

7:03

the closeout guy, everything

7:06

slowed down for Denver once they got

7:08

the pressure off of them. And

7:11

that's really what this came down to because we

7:13

all saw what happened in game two. It was

7:15

futile what they were doing and it was embarrassing.

7:17

Mike Malone's own words. It was and they said

7:20

they had to figure out a way, relieve the

7:22

pressure and let us go execute our sets with

7:24

better screening, high basketball IQ and play with the

7:26

poise that we're used to. And that's what I

7:28

saw pretty much all of the last two games.

7:31

I'm going to get to the pressure in a

7:33

second, but I think it's an important point you're

7:35

making, which is, you know, Denver's going

7:37

to play their way and they, they certainly

7:39

made some tweaks. They made you brought the

7:41

empty side stuff. There was a lot of

7:43

times in that two men game where they had a clear wing

7:46

instead of having, having two guys on the wing with a

7:48

single side on the weak side.

7:50

They now had more space for Murray

7:52

to operate because instead of having two guys on

7:54

the side, he was come off of, they only

7:56

had one guy, right? So they're just more space

7:58

for him, which of course, course means more space

8:01

for yoke. It's right. So they

8:03

mixed up where you know, Aaron Gordon

8:05

was in the Dunkersatz. Sometimes he's spacing.

8:07

It's like those small tweaks are important,

8:09

right? And, and Denver's

8:11

going to run their stuff. They were crisper. They

8:14

created more advantages. That's where we get into this

8:16

swing action where they're reversing the ball, skipping the

8:18

ball, and you're tagging close outs, you're getting open

8:20

threes. You're making extra pass, all of that stuff.

8:22

But it's like, it's a little bit

8:24

of a puzzle to solve against the Minnesota Timberwolves

8:27

in that. How do we create the advantage?

8:29

Right? One of the things that I think

8:32

is very relevant to this

8:34

series, but across the board

8:36

in these playoffs, and we'll get to it our

8:38

next series too, across the board

8:41

in our playoffs, uh, this is

8:43

a trend that I've seen. Offenses

8:47

need multiple ball handlers on

8:49

the floor. They need multiple

8:51

guys who can bring the ball

8:53

up and initiate offense and

8:56

defenses need multiple guys who can pick

8:58

up full court. Why? Well,

9:01

let's go Jalen Brunson, right? Jamal

9:03

Murray, like these guys are getting

9:06

hounded. Ball goes in

9:08

the basket, pick it up full

9:10

court, Bobby and take it out on the side.

9:12

Pick it up full court. These

9:15

defenders, teams that have these defenders

9:17

like Minnesota, like Indiana right now,

9:19

they're throwing Philly in the first round

9:21

against Bronson. They're throwing multiple bodies. Pick

9:25

up full court. And you hope that that takes its

9:27

toll that it wears you down a little bit. Right?

9:30

So if you're thinking about like a playoff

9:33

roster construction, Hey, you need

9:36

multiple ball handlers and you

9:38

need multiple defenders who can pick up full court, I'm

9:40

not going to be that guy, Tim. You

9:43

know, I need to be on, if I'm, if I'm one of the five

9:45

on the court, I need two other guys that can pick up full court.

9:47

Cause it's not going to be me. And

9:50

why is this relevant to Minnesota and

9:53

Denver? Well, we saw what happened in

9:55

game two, right? We saw

9:58

the pressure they put on Jamal Murray. We

10:00

saw the pickup points with Jamal Murray. That

10:03

takes its toll. I said

10:05

this to Tommy on Thursday when we were doing our

10:07

old man the three intro about this series. And

10:09

I said, if you're looking at

10:12

Denver, how do you relieve some of that pressure? Well,

10:16

it's probably not Michael Porter, Jr. bringing the ball

10:18

up. Certainly, Jokic could do it if he

10:20

gets a defensive rebound. It's probably

10:22

not KCP bringing the ball up. The

10:26

guy that can bring the ball up and initiate offense is

10:28

Aaron Gordon. Yesterday, initiated

10:31

offense on 27 possessions. And

10:33

what does that do for Jamal Murray? Jamal

10:35

Murray is now off the ball. He's

10:37

conserving energy. And then when you get into

10:39

the zoom screen or the rub, I'm sorry,

10:42

the rub screen, into the dribble

10:44

handoff game, into the two-man action, he's

10:46

got a fresh start. He's not having

10:49

to bring the ball up for 45 feet, get

10:51

off it, go get to a spot, just initiate

10:53

offense. And they had a ton of success with

10:56

those dribble handoffs. This

10:58

is a problem right now for the New York Knicks. It

11:00

is. We're going to get to more

11:02

of this in a second, but this is an

11:04

important trend right now in the playoffs. Dallas

11:08

has this. Dallas has Kyrie. Dallas

11:10

has Luca. Luca's getting hounded

11:13

by Lou Dord at times. Hey, just

11:15

inbound the ball over there to Kyrie. Kyrie

11:17

has it a few possessions. Hey, OK, I'm good. This

11:19

guy's, you know, Jalen Williams been fucking bothering me for

11:22

the last three possessions. All right, Luca, you can bring

11:24

it up. OKC has those defenders.

11:27

Dallas has those defenders. This

11:29

is an important part of the playoffs right now, is

11:32

just pick up full court. If you even go back, those

11:35

Bulls runs right in the 90s, think

11:38

about Ron Harper, Scottie

11:41

Pippen, MJ at times. Kobe

11:44

did this for the Lakers, right? You get to

11:46

the playoffs, and you're picking up full court, and

11:48

you're hoping you're wearing down teams. You

11:51

brought up the getting across half court. You're not getting

11:53

across half court in two or three

11:55

seconds. You're getting across half court in five or six seconds,

11:58

right? Now you're not getting into it. You're

12:00

often in a timely manner. Now

12:02

you're late clock on your second option. Instead

12:04

of being at 11 on your second option,

12:06

you're at six. All that stuff

12:09

certainly matters and it matters in this series.

12:11

And I liked the adjustment from Denver. Gordon

12:14

bringing the ball up. Yeah,

12:16

it was big, particularly the second half. It

12:18

just, what a, first of

12:20

all, you know, not, not to mention the fact,

12:22

by the way, let's go convert every single field

12:25

opportunity we get when we're off

12:27

the ball, the way Aaron Gordon did some

12:29

of his reads on his late flashes. Along

12:31

the baseline, we're unbelievable. Another incredible finds and

12:34

the passing is what

12:36

you know, that's such a two man feel

12:38

to me, like everybody's

12:41

like, Oh, yo, yo, get your, by the

12:43

way, yo, get incredible passing for sure. But

12:46

the timing and the read from Gordon all

12:48

season long, the last season too, like they've

12:50

just figured out this perfect synergy. So

12:53

to your point, you know, we, judge, we

12:55

talk about all the time about two

12:58

man combinations like guard big man, usually,

13:00

or we'll talk about back

13:02

courts, like the importance of back

13:04

courts and tandem mean guys together.

13:07

I think there's a really important

13:09

relationship on the court that

13:12

exists between a power forward and a center

13:15

that because of the spaces that they occupy

13:17

and the way that their games offensively compliment

13:19

each other. I think this is about as

13:21

good as it gets, as you'll ever going

13:23

to see in this league, what Aaron Gordon,

13:25

that's why he was the perfect pickup, the

13:27

perfect addition to this group. You

13:30

know, his defense toughness, rebounding is

13:32

smart. It's all things is great, but the way

13:34

that he reads Nikhil Jokic and

13:36

the way that those two guys play together

13:38

in making you pay in that

13:40

area of the floor, as often as they

13:43

do and what that does to a defense

13:45

and the doubt that it creates and the

13:47

number of guys that are now kind of

13:49

looking over their shoulders sinking, and

13:51

now that's going to lead to an open

13:53

three because of you're so worried about that

13:55

connection from Jokic to Aaron Gordon. You know,

13:58

lurking along the baseline. Um, and

14:01

it was never more so than yesterday. Like just

14:03

watching those two guys together and the way that

14:05

they, they play together and Gordon's ability to handle

14:08

the basketball, you're 100% right. Second

14:10

half was a big part of it. Second

14:12

thing I noticed about this game, there

14:15

were some opportunities Minnesota had

14:18

that I thought were critical,

14:21

even if it was a possession or two where

14:23

you're thinking, okay, were they

14:25

going to make the run all the way back? I

14:27

don't know, but they certainly could have got it. I

14:29

think to a one possession game. If on

14:32

a certain handful of possessions, they

14:34

had been smarter defensively or

14:36

offensively. And I thought actually JJ, the

14:39

close to the half was

14:41

enormous. So you, and let's walk you

14:44

through that. It's a seven point game.

14:47

Denver's got the basketball. Yokel slips

14:49

to the rim. They called go bear for that,

14:51

that hold when he slipped. I

14:53

thought it was a terrible call. I watched, watched replay. There was

14:56

a tiny little bit of a grabs sort of of his wrist,

14:58

but for the most part go bears hands or back. You don't

15:00

get your back cuts from the, from the top of the key

15:02

down the lane. They throw the pass. It's

15:04

out in front of them. It's a turnover. It's a

15:06

steal. Minnesota is going to be down seven with the

15:08

basketball going the other way with 30 seconds left in

15:10

the half. Instead they

15:12

call that foul. What happens

15:14

right after that? KCP makes a three,

15:18

then they throw the ball away, you

15:20

know, in the half court area. Jamal

15:22

Murray intercepts it makes a 50 foot

15:24

bomb at the half. You

15:26

talk about a turner turn of events. So just

15:28

like that, you go in down 15. It's

15:31

a seven point game and you

15:33

have the ball and in a matter

15:35

of 34 seconds, you are down 15

15:38

going into the locker room. I thought that was

15:40

a big, big possession. There was another possession earlier.

15:44

Anthony Edwards hits a three. I think they

15:46

cut it to seven and

15:48

you think, okay, this is plenty of time left.

15:52

Very next possession. They come up to

15:54

court. Anthony towns decides he's going to run out

15:56

and like pressure Aaron Gordon on the Paul,

15:59

like 50. 560

16:01

feet from the basket. Aaron Gordon

16:03

just crossover goes right by him, goes

16:05

downhill. They pinch off the corner, kick

16:07

out Justin Holiday made three within five,

16:09

seven seconds of Anthony Edwards hitting that

16:12

three. And just like that, people

16:14

stand up on the Edwards three. They

16:16

sit back down again, seven seconds later.

16:19

And I felt there was a series

16:21

of those types of momentum changers. Again,

16:23

Denver was so good, so crisp. I

16:25

don't think Minnesota's coming all the way

16:27

back, but I don't think they gave

16:30

themselves the best chance either to make Denver

16:32

feel like a real threat in the last,

16:34

you know, three, four, five minutes of the

16:36

game. And some of that was just incredible

16:38

execution on the part of Denver. Some of

16:41

it was, I thought, a lack of poise

16:43

on the part of Minnesota. It was some

16:45

mistakes defensively, some unnecessary fouling. I thought there

16:47

were a couple of really quick shots, not

16:49

even by Edwards. He had the right to

16:51

take whatever shot he wanted by other guys,

16:54

like quick shots that were not great looks.

16:57

All of that adds up to, you're

16:59

not going to be able to make up that

17:01

kind of ground against a team like Denver when

17:03

they're playing well, you have to almost pitch a

17:05

perfect game from the times you got down 15

17:07

to get back in it. The way Denver was

17:09

playing and Minnesota, I thought, lost out on some

17:12

opportunities to do that. And now this

17:14

is crazy. After what we saw in game two,

17:16

JJ, did you think we'd be

17:18

sitting here at two, two after what

17:21

we all watched game two

17:23

look like? Especially that second quarter. I

17:26

certainly did not expect Minnesota

17:28

to sweep. I'm

17:31

terrible at predictions. I don't like predicting things.

17:33

I don't either. But when you thought when

17:35

they left... I've talked all season about this

17:37

potential matchup and we did it at length

17:40

prior to the series. I wasn't

17:42

surprised Minnesota was up 2-0. I

17:44

would have been surprised if we were sitting

17:46

here doing this, talking about Minnesota in the

17:48

conference finals after winning 4-0. No,

17:51

I picked Denver in seven to win

17:53

this series. After game

17:55

two, I

17:58

certainly didn't think Denver was going to get swept. But

18:01

think, I mean, the way Minnesota

18:04

lamped them down in that

18:06

game and just like

18:09

all of them were, look, they look like they were in a state of

18:11

shock that that happened. And

18:13

you're thinking, okay, look, I know it's

18:16

not going to look like this going

18:18

forward to Minneapolis, but you think Minnesota

18:20

going home, having played that well, that

18:23

they're going to get one of these two

18:25

games, whether, and most likely would

18:27

have been game four, because you would expect the Denver

18:29

not to go down three. Oh, so Denver wins game

18:31

three. You're thinking, okay, Minnesota is going to at least

18:33

get a split at home. But the

18:36

way Denver carved them up offensively

18:38

yesterday, their defense has not

18:40

been a factor in the last two games. It just

18:42

has not bothered Denver at all. They

18:45

got back to a place of balance and

18:47

strength and comfort and getting space and

18:50

playing quicker. And they're much more certain

18:52

of what they're doing. And

18:54

you can just see the shift in their demeanor. They

18:57

look now like they're thinking like, okay, we got this

18:59

figured out. This isn't going to be a problem for

19:01

us going forward. That's the way they operated in these

19:03

last two games. The playoffs

19:05

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his play calling and service. to

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code OLDMAN. One

21:06

point I wanted to make is just, and

21:08

you brought this up at the end of the first

21:10

half of yesterday's game, just the importance

21:13

and people talk about this all the time. You

21:16

obviously called a bunch of games and

21:19

know this from being in some of

21:21

these coaches' meetings prior to like, it's

21:23

amazing how much emphasis coaches put on

21:25

it, finishing quarters starting quarters, right? And

21:29

it's these little small windows. It could be a

21:31

minute, could be 45 seconds. It

21:33

could be the first two and a half minutes while you

21:35

get your best player or breather at the start of the

21:37

second or the start of the fourth. And

21:39

those little tiny windows of the game

21:42

can have a profound effect on the

21:44

outcome. And a guy

21:47

subs in with a minute 15 checking

21:50

the game for the first time at the end of the first quarter.

21:53

And he's not fully engaged in the

21:55

game yet. All of a sudden the other team goes on

21:57

a seven, like seven, Oh, run like these things, these things

21:59

really matter. matter. And at

22:01

one other point I wanted to make was just on the,

22:03

the Gordon Yokich power Ford

22:07

center thing, you know, it's, we

22:09

see a lot of five out. We see a

22:11

lot of redundancy between the

22:13

three and the four in terms

22:15

of skillsets and positional, whatever. It's,

22:20

it's more homogenous. I feel

22:22

like roster construction. Then,

22:26

then it was, let's say, you know, 10,

22:31

15 years ago, right? It's a lot

22:33

of three D guys play for, right? If they're

22:35

not the primary ball handler, the primary wing. And

22:38

you brought up the perfect pairing. I do

22:40

want to say that the Milwaukee

22:43

bucks several years

22:45

ago, getting Brooke Lopez was massive

22:48

because, and it's almost inverse a little bit

22:50

to Yokich and Gordon, but he

22:53

provided the rim protection. The honest,

22:55

of course, does that as well, but he

22:57

provided the rim protection offensively. Plus he provided

22:59

the spacing. Plus he provides a pick

23:01

and roll partner at times. And

23:03

it's like this perfect pairing. And

23:06

obviously, you know, they won a

23:08

championship in 2021 with that, you

23:10

know, the, the Yannis Lopez thing is, is

23:12

important. The other

23:14

thing I just wanted to note, I just think, you

23:17

know, the,

23:19

the adjustments sometimes from

23:22

coaches and this elitist in the next series,

23:24

the adjustment sometimes from coaches, they're small

23:26

things. They're big things. Love Malone.

23:28

Just at times yesterday, just believing

23:31

in the bench. I thought they were awesome

23:33

yesterday. And then,

23:35

you know, going to Friday night, again,

23:38

yesterday, Rick Carlisle, there's all

23:40

this talk after game two of

23:42

the Knicks pastry series. Oh, you should have closed

23:44

with McConnell. He should have closed with McConnell. Nemhard.

23:47

He's having trouble. Garden Jalen. And

23:49

he comes out and he puts air knees, spit on him.

23:51

You know, it's like, Oh, okay.

23:54

Yeah. You just, why

23:56

didn't anybody else think that? And Aaron De

23:59

Smith. Defensively was

24:01

awesome in games three and four and indie. I

24:03

mean just awesome and the numbers back that up

24:06

You know Jalen's shooting stats with him as the primary

24:09

defender He

24:11

he was great and he set the tone

24:13

the big takeaway from yesterday

24:17

for me and we talked about this a bunch

24:19

of the broadcast and Unfortunately, we

24:21

had about Almost two

24:23

full quarters to talk about this because it

24:25

was such a blowout Is

24:28

just the incredible discrepancy right now

24:30

in Energy between

24:33

these two teams and by energy sometimes I'm

24:35

talking about negative energy and positive energy. I'm

24:37

not talking about this I'm not talking about

24:39

body language. I'm not talking about that. I'm

24:43

talking about the Pacers pressure

24:46

Full court sometimes five-man presses not

24:49

just the primary ball handler like

24:51

they had an eight-second violation yesterday

24:54

and then on offense trying to turn everything into a track

24:56

meet and It

24:58

was like a rush from the opening

25:00

tip yesterday Starters

25:03

did it for indie TJ

25:05

McConnell comes off the bench within

25:07

three or four minutes. It's like whoosh. It's

25:09

a 20-point game right, it

25:11

was just a surge of

25:13

energy from the Pacers and Look,

25:17

I think the OG thing New

25:20

York has like done Incredible

25:22

stuff with this roster with

25:24

this group with having to be

25:27

overtaxed physically sometimes be overtaxed in

25:30

roles guys guys

25:32

being asked to do more than they've ever done in

25:34

their career and OG's

25:36

availability to me is the

25:38

difference in this series and I

25:41

don't mean to to I mean going forward like I You

25:44

watched that game yesterday. They've got to turn around there play

25:46

tomorrow on the guard and they're gonna get a lift for

25:49

sure from that home crowd But there

25:51

is a concern right now with

25:53

the physical toll that all of

25:55

these injuries all of these minutes a bunch

25:58

of close games obviously Yesterday was not but

26:00

a Their first nine were clutch games like. There's.

26:03

A concern I think with the energy

26:05

level. Of the New York Knicks. Oh

26:09

it's it's obvious And your said Neris,

26:11

It's always easier to even to see

26:13

it sitting there courtside bomb watching that

26:16

game. I'm seeing the same thing that

26:18

look like they gassed team. Everything was

26:20

a challenge for them. All. Movements.

26:24

Inning space getting back to

26:26

guards that their pace. The.

26:28

Number of the the number of close

26:30

our son and containment you have to

26:32

have when you play the pacers like

26:34

that is exhausting. You have to run

26:37

back. first of all to to guard

26:39

against the advanced past to use firstly

26:41

money just had a terrible possession he

26:43

got bad spacing wanted to now you

26:45

got weird spacing. getting back you run

26:47

back. You. Stop the advanced pass

26:49

and ask them to just start going

26:51

with these quit hitters one after another

26:54

after other. Every guy that touches the

26:56

ball immediately tries to get down hill

26:58

on you and says you gotta and

27:00

they're good shooters see your full commit

27:02

to get out to the line but

27:04

now they're attacking you off the dribble

27:06

says got to go from full spread

27:08

out down to assess slide with them.

27:11

To. Goddamn there's another kick out.

27:13

Now you've got to be and help

27:15

position on the next dribble drive. And.

27:18

Is probably you're gonna have you done one

27:20

last part. close out at a three porn

27:22

or something that is that what I just

27:24

described as one position. That's

27:27

tiring. What I just described that were me

27:29

in that position doing all four of those

27:31

things or possesses that starts to do that

27:33

every trip. The entire time. And.

27:36

Also you're digging from behind with the whole

27:38

games such as a little bit easier when

27:40

the game is like. Tied. Yards

27:42

or it's for either way. it's just

27:45

a different energy, an adrenaline, their Swiss

27:47

thing snowballing against you. You can't do

27:49

anything offensively when you're that battlefront sweets.

27:51

it just puts you. We've is even

27:53

worse and more. Compromise positions defenseless, They're.

27:56

Just short. On. bodies man they're

27:58

short on energy if they

28:00

somehow come back JJ and win game five

28:03

and they, and they have, you know, it's going to be

28:06

a close game. They have enough energy to get through that.

28:08

The best thing that could have happened then it was the

28:10

fact that you had guys play like in the twenties in

28:12

minutes in this game, honestly, because they needed a break from

28:14

somewhere and it turns out it could have come in the

28:16

form of a blowout, but it

28:18

just looks like all

28:20

of this stuff, the cumulative effect

28:23

of all of these injuries, the

28:25

minutes piling up, the style of

28:27

play for some of these guys,

28:29

it looks like right now it has caught up to

28:32

them. And so we're all sitting

28:34

here wondering what is the answer going

28:36

to be to that in

28:38

game five, even though you're going to get this, this

28:41

surge of energy from the building, we get it. MSG

28:43

is incredible that way, but it looks like Indiana, by

28:46

the way, that place looked bananas. I

28:48

mean, you're crowd. Great crowd, Tim. It was

28:50

coming through the screen, man. I was like,

28:52

that is a lot. That place

28:54

is electric right now. And you know, part of that

28:56

is yeah, you know, you're down in the series, you're

28:58

trying to fight back. Part of it is they sense

29:00

it. Like this might not

29:02

just be, Hey, we're in this series. Like we

29:05

can win this series. We can be in the

29:07

conference finals. We can taste it. Look at this

29:09

team. All we have to do is keep our

29:11

foot on the gas. They don't have enough to

29:14

be able to stop this surge. And that's

29:16

what it looked like yesterday. So now we're

29:19

all going to sit back and see what

29:21

can the Knicks muster up in

29:23

terms of energy and toughness

29:26

and, you know, bodies and getting contributions

29:28

from other people, maybe surprising contributions that

29:30

you're going to need in a series

29:32

like this. I don't know, JJ, doesn't

29:34

look good for them right now. I

29:37

don't know. I'm not counting them out. I'm not counting them out. I

29:39

don't know. They had a few games.

29:41

Yeah. But you have, you brought something up

29:43

that I think is important to note. Like

29:46

the starters, uh,

29:48

did get a break in the fourth quarter. It

29:51

was an afternoon game. They got

29:53

back at a decent hour. They get a

29:55

full day of rest and they get a night game. It

29:58

was a really quick turnaround. from

30:00

an insanely competitive, insanely physical game

30:03

on Friday night to then turn

30:05

her back around with

30:07

a short-handed group and play

30:09

Friday afternoon. I'm not making excuses

30:11

on this. I'm certainly not making

30:13

excuses for Jalen either who's battling

30:16

this foot injury. We've

30:18

got all the data on this. We were talking about it during the game.

30:21

His shot is short right now. His lift

30:23

isn't there. Some

30:25

of that's the pressure of

30:28

Neesmith. Some of it maybe is

30:30

the size of Neesmith relative to Nemhard and

30:32

some of it's probably the foot. There's

30:35

a ton of factors here. Obi

30:40

Toppin, another guy just wanted to mention

30:42

off the bench for the Pacers. Kim

30:48

and TJ have this great synergy and stuff.

30:52

The fact that he has sort of developed

30:54

into a reliable three-point shooter, which

30:57

he was not when he drafted, when he

30:59

was drafted. He's a

31:01

valuable bench rotation player for

31:04

this team. The style

31:06

of play for the New York Knicks, they

31:09

crashed the offensive glass. Their number

31:11

one in the regular season in offensive

31:13

rebounding percentage, their number one in the playoffs. They

31:17

took a ton of threes yesterday.

31:19

They didn't go in. Those are long

31:22

rebounds and they're crashing and they created

31:24

a ton of two-on-ones and three-on-twos. And

31:27

the Pacers, even if they didn't score in

31:30

those situations, you described

31:32

perfectly what a typical Indiana Pacers possession

31:34

is like. So if you're the New

31:36

York Knicks and you're trying

31:39

to create offense in the half court and

31:41

then you're crashing the glass and then you're

31:43

sprinting back and then you're going through multiple

31:45

actions on every possession, that's another

31:47

piece of this whole thing. And look, New York,

31:50

I don't have the transition,

31:52

the opponent transition opportunities and opponent transition points per

31:55

possession because I have my phone and I don't

31:57

have second spectrum in front of me. But

32:00

on edb.com, they were, you know, number one

32:02

offensive rebounding team. They were 13th in,

32:05

in fast break points allowed. So this

32:07

is not something that has hurt them necessarily

32:09

this year. Uh, number one in the league was around

32:11

11. They're around 13.8 points

32:13

per possession, Utah, which by the way, was

32:16

top two or three all season and offensive

32:18

rebounding percentage. They were the worst at giving

32:20

up opponent fast break points. They, so they're,

32:22

they, they had that sort of

32:25

risk reward thing and they got burned

32:27

for it and they gave up over 18 points a game in fast

32:29

breaks. So this stuff, you know,

32:32

you, I'm not saying Tibbs is going to tell

32:34

those guys to turn off the offensive

32:36

rebounding, but certainly in this

32:38

series, I think you just have

32:41

to potentially be a

32:43

little mindful potentially, um,

32:46

and if they shoot better than it's a moot point.

32:48

Cause the ball's going through the basket, right? And you have a

32:50

chance to get back. Of course, the Pacers,

32:53

they do a great job. You brought up the throw

32:55

ahead pass. They inbounds quick to Hal Burton McConnell. They

32:57

throw ahead. Boom. They're into action. It's

33:00

a tough, it's a tough matchup. Yeah.

33:03

Really tough matchup. And, and you

33:06

know, there's one of those teams that when

33:08

you first get them early in a series,

33:10

it's like, I probably, it's really a difficult

33:12

thing to adjust to based on your previous

33:14

round. And cause they're still different in the

33:17

way that they play. I love your point

33:19

about Halliburton and McConnell there. They are so

33:21

good. Steve Nash. It reminds me of that

33:23

in that I was used to watch Steve

33:25

Nash and it would marvel at his ability

33:27

to see the ball coming off of the

33:29

defensive glass and start to sort of scan

33:31

the floor to see the right angle to

33:33

take and where he would have to sprint

33:36

to so that by the time that

33:38

his teammate got the defensive rebound and turned

33:40

to look, he wasn't then starting to figure

33:42

out where to break. He had already started

33:44

that process. So the ball was delivered and

33:46

he's got a head of steam. It's amazing

33:48

how many times like these guys are over

33:50

half court in one dribble to two dribbles

33:52

and they're already up the other end of

33:54

the floor. And they both do it really,

33:56

really well. By the way, TJ, but I

33:58

can't say enough about. the impact TJ McConnell

34:00

has had in this series. Back

34:03

up point guard, right? To

34:05

have this kind of an impact. They have no answer

34:07

for him. It's amazing the pressure

34:09

that he's putting on the New York next

34:11

to the way he's breaking them down repeatedly.

34:13

He has been sensational in this

34:15

series to your point, 22 fast break points

34:17

in this game. That's a high number for

34:19

a playoff game. And that doesn't even count

34:21

the number of opportunities they had that they

34:23

didn't convert because they had clean

34:25

looks that didn't go in on some of

34:28

those possessions or that number is up north

34:30

of 30 in a playoff

34:32

game. That is very rare. When

34:34

you combine it with 60 points in the

34:36

paint, that is just domination, this

34:38

domination. And we should, we all saw it.

34:40

I mean, it got out of hand pretty quickly, right out of

34:42

the gate really. And the Knicks didn't have

34:44

any sort of response. They didn't have, they

34:47

did not have the energy

34:49

required to be

34:51

able to dig out of that sort of

34:53

onslaught to start that game. It's that simple.

34:56

They're having, they'll have a much better response in game

34:58

five. There was no question about it. I

35:00

have no doubt in my mind. So this

35:02

isn't going to be about how the game starts. This

35:04

is going to be, I think a war. It's going

35:07

to be, I think a battle to

35:09

the end. And it's going to be

35:11

then do the Knicks have enough at the

35:14

end of 48 minutes to be able to make

35:16

the plays they need to down the stretch. That's

35:18

what I think game five is going to come down

35:21

to. So Pacers, you know,

35:23

they got this series absolutely played

35:25

to their liking in the style,

35:29

you know, the Knicks are able to win two of those

35:31

games, despite the fact that the score was up and

35:33

the pace was up and everything else. So give them

35:35

credit for that. But these last two, this

35:37

is, you know, makes you really start to look

35:40

at the Knicks and say, where are you going

35:42

to find it from the way that they look

35:44

right now with, with just fatigue and not enough

35:46

guys that tips trust right now to play more

35:48

minutes off his bench. It's

35:51

a dire task, man. But one good thing, it's

35:53

two, two going home. They

35:56

still have home court advantage in this series.

35:58

It's two, two best of three. He will be

36:00

in New York if he goes seven. That's

36:02

the best news that they have. So let's see what they're

36:04

going to come up with in game five. This

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37:40

thing on this series, and this is

37:42

just like a sort of an inside thing

37:44

or whatever, but

37:47

Tyreese as a

37:50

scorer makes such a difference.

37:54

In a regular season, I don't think he has to

37:56

do it every night. Like he can have those games

37:58

where he takes eight shots and goes for 15

38:00

assists. Um, but

38:02

in the playoffs, they're a better team

38:05

when he's taking 20 shots a game and

38:07

he's not getting 12, 13, like

38:10

he, to me, set the tone early

38:13

in both these games by coming out, looking

38:16

for his own shot, hunting his own

38:18

shot. And I talked

38:20

about this Friday, you know, Rick told us Rick, by

38:22

the way, I, I was

38:25

thinking about it this weekend. Cause I'm like, so

38:28

he had Dirk, right? And

38:30

they played a certain way. And

38:32

then he had Luca and they

38:34

played a certain way. And now he has

38:37

Tyreese and they play a certain way.

38:39

Like he adapts to the game, certainly

38:41

to what the game requires, what, what

38:43

math requires. But he also, he

38:45

adapts to what, who do I

38:47

have on my team? And he figures out

38:49

a way, what's the best version of this team? And

38:52

it was really interesting. So he said to his Fridays,

38:54

like we're just a better team when we

38:57

play conceptually and random than we

38:59

do slowing the game down and

39:01

calling set plays. And so

39:03

the concepts that you described perfectly, the

39:05

concepts are part

39:08

of the reason at times when

39:10

it's slow and you're calling

39:12

a set play, everybody gets Tyreese to his left. I'm not

39:14

saying he can't drive left. He's phenomenal.

39:16

Going right. One of the best right-hand

39:18

drivers in the entire NBA. And

39:21

when it's random, it gives him

39:23

more opportunities to attack a

39:26

closeout and cut to his

39:28

right hand, to attack a switch and get to his

39:30

right hand. And we saw that time and

39:32

time again in games three and four. Okay.

39:35

See Dallas, Dallas up to

39:37

one. Any,

39:39

any just big thoughts on game three,

39:42

game four, obviously tonight, what is

39:44

Oakland, Oklahoma city have to do to get

39:46

back into the series and avoid going

39:48

down three, one? Yeah, I think, I

39:50

think a lot of their issues

39:53

for me in this series

39:55

had been more offensive issues.

39:58

They've got to shoot the ball better from the three. first of all, they had,

40:00

they had a lot of clean looks the other night that they didn't convert. They've

40:02

got to make, I know they're not a high volume

40:05

three point shooting team, but look, go back

40:07

to game one. They made 14 in that game. They,

40:09

they got their big push and they were

40:11

able to get away from Dallas, basically from

40:13

the three point line, the second half, they're

40:15

going to have to shoot the ball better

40:17

from there. This series has been very interesting

40:19

to me, JJ, because, uh, you know, they

40:21

Dallas loses game one. It's clear. Luca is

40:23

not, he's not close to like

40:26

physically how he is at

40:28

his peak. It's obvious. Like he just is having

40:31

a hard time getting away

40:33

from toward getting away from whoever's on him.

40:36

And his step back three has been just hasn't

40:38

left him for the most part. Um, he can

40:41

still make one here and there, but it's a

40:43

huge weapon for him because it sets up a

40:45

lot of stuff for him. His ability to make

40:47

that shot at a high rate. Uh, he just

40:49

looks so bound up. And

40:52

I was concerned after game one, if he continues to look

40:54

like that, he's not able to make perimeter shots. They're going

40:56

to have a very difficult time winning this series. Well,

40:59

if you go and take a look at the last couple

41:01

of games, I mean, he's one for four from the three

41:03

again in Alaska, seven for 17, and they still win the

41:05

game. Uh, they've gotten

41:07

great contributions out of other

41:10

people. And PJ Washington, what

41:12

that guy has done, you know, not only

41:14

the addition coming to this team in February,

41:17

it took him a while to find a

41:20

comfort zone offensively, but even at

41:22

his most comfortable in the regular season, he has

41:24

far surpassed that with what he's doing with them

41:26

now. I mean, he is feeling it

41:28

and he is making Oklahoma city

41:31

pay every single chance

41:33

that they take to load up on the lane,

41:35

to put extra bodies in front of Luca. When

41:38

he backs guys down or start to get, get,

41:40

you know, off the edge on the, on a

41:42

ball screen, Kyrie the same, they're, they're kind of

41:44

shifting over toward him and making those guys play

41:46

in traffic. They haven't really gone off. You've

41:49

had other guys do just enough. Tim

41:51

Hardaway Jr has been good. PJ Washington

41:53

has been sensational. So I think Oklahoma

41:55

city has done enough

41:57

defensively because role players.

42:00

are having massive nights against them. And that's what you

42:02

have to live with to a certain extent when you

42:04

play this team, they've got to be better on the

42:06

other end of the floor. You've got

42:08

to get to a better number. I'm 101 points against

42:10

Dallas is not going to be good enough. And that's

42:12

what really, I thought a lot of what game three

42:14

came down to, they've got to still feel like they're

42:16

a pretty good position here to

42:18

win this series. You know, they can't get

42:21

to demoralize because they're down to one, because I

42:23

think they've done a lot of really good things

42:25

against them defensively. And the way that they're playing

42:27

them, I think their offense has to be better.

42:29

Yeah. And some of that, I think is, is

42:32

Dallas is defense, which definitely was number

42:34

one defense in the league. The last 20 games

42:37

thought at times in that clipper

42:39

series, it was just awesome. They

42:42

offer size length.

42:46

You know, if Josh green comes off the bench,

42:48

you know, he gives you some energy, he's, he's

42:50

pressuring the basketball, all that stuff. It's

42:53

important. I think in this series,

42:55

because of Oklahoma's

42:58

Oklahoma city spacing and

43:01

their desire and their will to

43:03

drive the basketball, uh,

43:05

that Dallas is helped

43:07

defense has been awesome. And they've

43:09

relied on that and they've made it tough. Like they've

43:13

made it tough on Shea at times. Uh,

43:15

they've made it tough on Jalen Williams at times. Uh,

43:18

they've really just committed to being

43:20

in help and living

43:22

out of rotations. And so some

43:24

of it, I think, you know, going

43:27

back to how you described a Pacer's possession

43:29

is like if Oklahoma city can

43:31

get into more of that, uh,

43:34

and not just a Shea ISO, right?

43:36

Not just that where he's seeing

43:38

a set defense, they can get more into that

43:40

quick stuff, which is, you know, typically how they

43:43

play. Um, I think their

43:45

offense opens up. I really do. I

43:47

liked Dallas to win this series. Uh, I was

43:49

concerned after the first game, the way Luca looked,

43:53

um, that that was going to be a degenerative thing

43:55

as the series went on. Cause he just, he just

43:57

was not moving well in that game. Um, he

43:59

had a cool. Great start. And then

44:01

it just got progressively worse as the

44:03

game were on. So I was concerned about it,

44:05

but they're finding ways. They're getting enough

44:08

out of other guys. Luca maybe

44:10

doesn't have to be spectacular in this series to win

44:12

the series. This is

44:14

a team in Dallas. I have to say that. Isn't

44:16

that wild? And he wasn't, he wasn't spectacular against the

44:18

Clippers either. He wasn't. And think about that. So they

44:20

can end up, you know, they got a lot of

44:22

work to do in this series. I do think the

44:24

Oklahoma city is not winning this series if they don't

44:26

win game for like, I don't know.

44:28

There's some teams, I would say, Hey, look, if these games

44:30

have been close and they're down three, one, I think they're

44:32

still in it. I don't think

44:34

you win a three straight games against a Luca

44:37

led team. If you're Oklahoma city. So

44:39

this is, this is a must win for

44:41

Oklahoma city. Luca, this, this

44:43

is a team to potentially could

44:45

get to the conference finals without Luca really

44:48

having to be spectacular offensively in the first

44:50

two rounds. That's, that's really incredible. And it's

44:52

a testament to the, how

44:55

they have transformed themselves defensively with

44:58

length and athleticism. And, and

45:00

also I think the, the

45:03

sink between Kyrie and Luca it's better

45:05

than it's ever been since the day

45:07

he got there. It's sort

45:09

of seamless now. And you

45:11

don't ever feel like awkward or uncomfortable watching

45:13

them play offensively or wondering, you know, if

45:16

they're going to figure it out, they have figured it out. They, they, they've

45:18

got that. They've got

45:21

that in sync now that they can

45:23

have games that they win when it's not about

45:26

them. And we're not talking about them. First

45:28

thing, the first topic can be their defense.

45:30

It can be PJ Washington or some other

45:32

player that came up in a big spot.

45:35

That's a role player or supporting cast of those

45:37

two stars. So this is, I

45:39

think this has got a lot of twists and turns left

45:41

in this series. This was

45:43

going to be one of the most interesting ones for me.

45:45

If this matchup ever came to fruition, which it did, Oklahoma

45:48

city is certainly not out of this thing, but they've got

45:50

to win game four and they've got

45:52

to be better offensively. They got to, they've got to

45:54

make, they got to make shots against a really good

45:56

defense. So sometimes that's what it's going to come down

45:58

to. And I think Oklahoma. City left some

46:01

out there in game three that could have

46:03

made a big difference. Tim,

46:05

always a pleasure. Please call more

46:07

games. Uh, loved you. Loved you on

46:09

the call the other night. Uh, and we'll talk to

46:12

you soon, man. Appreciate you buddy. All right. Thanks man.

46:20

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