0:00

If you can understand people, you can make them laugh.

0:02

If you understand what makes them tick, you'll understand

0:04

what they enjoy. If you understand what they enjoy,

0:06

you understand how to cure some of their ales,

0:08

because you'll know where they're coming from.

0:18

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout

0:20

time, great thinkers have recognized the

0:22

importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

0:25

like garbage in, garbage out, or

0:27

you are what you think ring true.

0:30

And yet for many of us, our thoughts

0:32

don't strengthen or empower us. We

0:34

tend toward negativity, self pity,

0:37

jealousy, or fear. We see

0:39

what we don't have instead of what we do.

0:42

We think things that hold us back and dampen

0:44

our spirit. But it's not just about

0:47

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:49

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:51

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:54

podcast is about how other people keep

0:56

themselves moving in the right direction, how

0:58

they feed their good wolf. Thanks

1:15

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:18

is comedian Josh Johnson. In addition

1:20

to stand up, he's an Emmy nominated

1:22

writer and is currently a writer on the Daily

1:24

Show with Trevor Noah and a former

1:26

writer and performer on the Tonight Show

1:28

starring Jimmy Fallon. Josh was named

1:31

New York's Funniest at New York Comedy

1:33

Festival in two thousand eighteen, and his

1:35

story cat Fishing the KKK has

1:37

amassed over eight million hits

1:39

on YouTube. Hi Josh, welcome

1:41

to the show. Hey, thanks for having me pleasure

1:43

to have you on. Let's start, like we always

1:46

do, with a parable. There's a grandfather who's

1:48

talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are

1:50

two wolves inside of us that are always

1:52

at battle. One is a good

1:54

wolf, which represents things like kindness

1:56

and bravery and love, and the other

1:59

is a bad wolf, which represents things like

2:01

greed and hatred and fear. And

2:03

the grandson stops and he thinks about it for

2:05

a second, and he looks up at his grandfather. He says, well,

2:07

grandfather, which one wins? And

2:09

the grandfather says that the one you feed.

2:12

So I'd like to start off by asking you

2:14

what that parable means to you in your

2:16

life and in the work that you do. I

2:18

think it's very important that even

2:20

though the parable is like a beautiful analogy

2:23

of the duality with people, that

2:25

it's not so simple as

2:28

the one that you're starving, so the one that you're

2:30

not feeding doesn't necessarily go away. And

2:32

it's very easy for us to look at an individual

2:34

that's only feeding, you know, one wolf

2:37

per se, and think that that's all there is

2:39

to them, when really, you know, maybe

2:41

the other wolf is starving, but it's not exactly

2:43

dead or gone or anything. And I think

2:45

that at any time people can switch over. Whether

2:48

whether we think that's good or bad is in

2:51

the eye of the beholder, I guess, But I do

2:53

think that it's a reminder that there's

2:55

a duality to being human, and

2:58

there's also like a d qality

3:00

to intention, you know, because sometimes you can be

3:02

feeding one and not intending to really

3:04

be starving the other. I like that a

3:07

lot. That made me think, as you were saying that, of

3:09

like looking at other people and

3:12

almost believing that they're just bad

3:15

versus realizing like, well, there's a good wolf

3:17

in there, and your point of intention

3:19

that most people who

3:21

a lot of us might look at and well that's bad.

3:24

That person's intentions still might

3:26

be very good. It's just what's

3:28

your perspective, what's your position? Yeah,

3:31

And I think that there's our line

3:33

to draw on good and bad. I

3:35

think that most decisions either make

3:37

you happy or unhappy, and make other people

3:40

happy or unhappy. And so I think that even

3:42

in most of the things that we would consider bad

3:44

or of of like a more negative

3:47

quality, it's mainly because they lead to unhappiness

3:49

and unhappy decisions. It is not necessarily

3:52

because the thing in and of its essence is bad,

3:54

if that makes sense, right, right. I'm just often

3:56

struck by how underneath

3:59

everything we're all trying to be

4:01

happy, and that's what everybody's trying

4:03

to do. It's that we differ on

4:06

strategy, you know, we differ on

4:08

what makes happiness for us or for

4:10

other people, But underneath it,

4:12

if you look at most people, again can

4:15

debate good and bad, how fixed

4:17

they are versus how relative they are,

4:20

but underneath it, everybody's trying

4:22

to be happy. And it's just that with a lot

4:24

of people I look at and I go, that is a terrible strategy.

4:27

Yeah, And I mean there's also something

4:29

to be said for like that instant

4:31

gravigation that we've all been conditioned

4:34

to addiction to. You know, I

4:36

think that there are a lot of things short term to

4:38

make you very happy or pleasurable and are

4:40

fun. And then you know, upon

4:42

further inspection, you look at the grand scheme

4:45

of things, you look at the entire playbook

4:47

laid out, and you see that this is actually a

4:49

terrible idea, right exactly.

4:52

Yeah, you're a comedian. So I

4:54

think the place I'd like to start this conversation

4:57

is really looking at how

5:00

we use laughter as a coping

5:02

mechanisms. What are the ways that we

5:04

can use humor? You know, I often say

5:06

that I think that levity should

5:08

be listed is one of the virtues in life.

5:11

That levity is a spiritual virtue.

5:13

So let's talk about the role of humor

5:16

as a coping mechanism. When you

5:18

laugh, and especially when it's coming

5:20

from a genuine place, um

5:22

you feel no pain, you know, like

5:24

like the the act of

5:27

taking something in that either someone said or

5:29

did or happen and and laughing

5:31

at it and the general and genuine

5:33

joy that you get from that thing is

5:36

like so akin to like our

5:38

nature and what's important about being

5:40

human. And I think that it's

5:43

something that is not just to

5:46

like cope as a band aid. It's something

5:48

that can change your outlook

5:50

if you let it. One of the reasons that there

5:52

are subjects that people think

5:54

are too precious or too sacred to

5:56

laugh about is because they want to keep

5:59

the nearer of Austin Ay. I don't know if that would be the

6:01

right way to word it, but they want to keep

6:03

this this general veil and idea

6:05

preserved about what the thing is, how important

6:08

it is, and how you're supposed to look at it. And when

6:10

you laugh at something, you strip it

6:13

of its power to a certain degree. And

6:16

I don't think that we as

6:18

people should be in a place where ideas,

6:22

institutions and people have power over

6:24

us as individuals. And I

6:26

think that by making fun

6:28

of things, especially when it comes from a place,

6:30

that brings it down to earth and makes it human,

6:33

not just like poking fun to make

6:35

fun and to be malicious.

6:37

I think that the laughter and the joy

6:40

and the camaraderie you feel with

6:42

the other people laughing breathe a certain

6:44

change in mindset that I think makes

6:47

it easier to not just cope, but to move

6:49

on from trauma. So

6:51

do you think that laughter is not just

6:54

a coping mechanism but actually a

6:56

healing method. I think that there

6:58

are certain ways that you can look at the world

7:00

that are very uh, you know, pessimistic,

7:03

sad or optimistic and uplifting,

7:06

and those mindsets they almost

7:08

program your responses before you have them.

7:11

So I think that by having, like

7:13

you said, like a layer of levity, that virtue

7:15

of levity, I think that you're automatically

7:18

bringing yourself into situations

7:20

that are going to make it easier

7:23

for you to get through because of your outlook and

7:25

because of the way that you approach things. Most

7:28

of what happens in the world is

7:30

just stimulus. It's it's something that to

7:32

a certain degree, sociopaths look

7:34

at the world as like, I don't know why I would

7:36

be happy about this or sad about this or whatever,

7:39

and we see it as a very negative thing because

7:41

we see sociopathic people as

7:43

like having an extreme

7:46

chance of doing bad because

7:49

they don't have any emotions about what

7:51

would happen in the outcome doesn't matter

7:53

to them. But when you pay close

7:55

attention to you know, like Zen literature,

7:58

it almost comes from the act place, but

8:01

not from a perspective of

8:03

telling people what to do and you

8:05

should just shouldn't care because what's happening is going

8:07

to happen. It's more telling people

8:09

the way to cope is that you're

8:11

not trying to cope. You're not trying to cope

8:13

with what happens, because everything that

8:16

happens is life. You know, to cope

8:18

would almost mean that I am supposed

8:20

to be in a consistent, constant

8:22

state of bliss and happiness, and anything

8:24

that interrupts that is bad and should be avoided.

8:27

And so I have to learn how to cope with the bad

8:29

things to get me back to the good place, because that's

8:31

where I'm supposed to be all the time. And truthfully,

8:34

life is like an ocean and you're in a boat

8:36

and you're going up and down and you're

8:38

getting tossed around and everything. And if

8:41

life was on land in that scenario and

8:43

that analogy, and then you got tossed by ways,

8:45

yes, that would be insane. That would be terrible,

8:47

and you need to figure out a way to cope. But because

8:50

your life is as tumultuous

8:53

as it's going to be, because whether you believe

8:55

in like you know, some sort of predetermined

8:58

set of events, or if you just

9:00

believe that like life is happening as

9:02

it happens and it's all crazy, it's all like

9:04

snapping by as it happens. You

9:07

don't necessarily need to cope

9:09

to get back to some sort of place. You need to

9:11

learn to accept as everything is happening.

9:14

And I think that levity lets us do that.

9:17

You know, Levity brings you back

9:19

to almost a center of like, hey,

9:21

this is crazy, or this

9:24

is good, or this is terrible, but also like

9:27

this is just happening, you know. Like I

9:29

had a joke I was doing for

9:31

a little while before the lockdown

9:33

started that was about how living in New York,

9:36

you're around millions and millions of people

9:38

all the time, every day, every time you

9:40

go out, and every single day

9:42

in New York is the best

9:44

day of someone's life and the worst

9:46

day of someone's life, and they're usually in

9:48

the same room.

9:51

Yeah, that's funny. You made me twice

9:54

in like forty seconds. Think of two

9:56

separate songs by a band that I

9:58

love called DAWs. I don't know if you're familiar

10:01

with them, but there's two songs.

10:03

One of them, there's a line that I love. The

10:05

line is just things happen, That's

10:07

all they ever do, which is a great

10:09

line because he's sort of talking about somebody

10:11

who's getting all bet out of shape about everything

10:14

and thinking, He's like, you know, things happen, That's

10:16

just that's all they ever do. And then

10:18

the other line is he goes through this list

10:20

of really amazing and terrible things happening.

10:23

He says, all these things are happening right this second,

10:25

less than five miles away, which

10:27

I think is an amazing sort of perspective.

10:30

Now you let into all that by

10:33

sort of correlating Zen and

10:35

sociopaths. I've got to go back to that,

10:38

partially because I'm a Zen student

10:40

and I'm hoping to get permission here to call my

10:42

Zen teacher a sociopath. But

10:45

let's talk a little bit more about that, because I think what

10:47

you were saying was that a sociopath

10:49

doesn't really see things as good or bad. It's

10:52

just sort of neutral. And that's very

10:54

much a Zen or a Buddhist idea,

10:56

which is that things are good or

10:59

bad because we side that they are,

11:01

and that if we were to let go of

11:03

that, if we were to let go of that grasping

11:06

I like this, I don't like this, I like this, I don't

11:08

like this. We let go of that grasping, we

11:11

would suffer way less.

11:13

I think that's what you were saying yeah, it

11:16

was Yeah. I never made that connection between

11:18

those two things. I think underlying

11:21

Buddhism there is a heart of compassion,

11:23

but that is a similar nature. And

11:26

I think this is interesting because I often

11:28

think about this. I think about how

11:31

possible is the

11:34

Buddhist view of the world for most

11:36

of us, And by by that, I mean the

11:38

idea. This is a vast oversimplification.

11:41

But the vast oversimplification is

11:43

if I could stop wanting, if I

11:45

could stop saying I like this, I don't

11:48

like this, I would be perfectly happy.

11:50

The first time I heard it, I went, that's brilliant.

11:53

Yes, And then I look at what it's like to actually

11:55

be a human and I go, geez,

11:57

that seems pretty deeply wired

11:59

in, you know. And I then I start going

12:01

down and I looking at like a single cell organism,

12:04

and even a single cell organism at

12:06

the most basic bedrock of life

12:08

is going to go that's good. I'll

12:10

move towards it. That's food, that's

12:13

toxic. That's bad. I'll move away

12:15

from it. So that this is good, I want more

12:17

of it. This is bad, I don't want to also

12:20

seems baked into the very nature

12:22

of our existence, so I'm just kind

12:24

of curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I mean, it is

12:27

part of our biology. It's it's why

12:29

you know, we are attracted to attractive

12:31

people outside of whatever social and cultural

12:34

norms you've created. There's a deep, deep sense for

12:36

us to procreate with like a healthy

12:38

mate. And to us, what is beauty

12:40

is healthy and so we look for, you know,

12:42

those healthy mates, and so we want and

12:44

we lust after them because somewhere

12:47

in culture and society,

12:50

our wires got cross to where

12:52

we don't necessarily do things for their

12:54

instinctive purpose and we just do them for pleasure.

12:57

So that does create like a sense of lust,

12:59

a sense of wanting to like get

13:01

a person or conquer them

13:03

or get at them. And I think that to

13:06

your example, if we were to get rid of that want,

13:08

yes, we would cure the sort of like

13:11

lust, unrequited love, all of these

13:14

things that make us unhappy, But

13:16

we wouldn't necessarily get rid of

13:18

the deepest, deepest want that is to be

13:20

human, because it's from a biological standpoint,

13:23

and I don't think that it

13:25

is our job. I'm not necessarily like

13:28

a Zen student, but I've read a lot about it. I

13:30

respected a lot, and I do think that it's one

13:32

of the best ways that you can live your life if you're

13:34

trying to be less harmful and

13:38

to be harmed less. I

13:40

think that it's not necessarily

13:42

our job to destroy

13:45

all the parts of ourselves that we deem unhappy

13:47

or bad. Just like the two wolves

13:50

never die, I think that there's something

13:52

good, and I think a lot of good comes out of

13:54

those less than perfect qualities that humans

13:57

have, whether it's biological or

13:59

it's like a personality thing. And so

14:01

I don't think that even if we did get

14:03

rid of the need for want, let's say

14:05

we didn't live in a capitalist society, and let's

14:07

say we didn't need a hierarchy the

14:10

way that even the monkeys do, I

14:12

think that we would still have something

14:15

that we needed that, even if it does create

14:17

suffering, also created want, and

14:20

that is what would keep us going. You know.

14:22

I think that to a certain degree, if

14:24

you completely destroy all of want

14:27

and you destroy the ego, then

14:30

yes, you are not suffering

14:32

as much. But I don't know if that would

14:35

make you happy

14:37

by default. I do think that it would

14:39

make you super content, and

14:41

I think that that's dope. Like whenever

14:44

you run into like a truly content person.

14:47

It's one of the most enviable positions

14:49

to be in, you know, because you're like, Wow,

14:51

wherever it is, you are, no matter what I think

14:54

about it, no matter what everyone says

14:56

about it, you're genuinely happy. And

14:58

that's actually attained by a few where people

15:00

than attain wealth. I would tend to agree

15:03

it is interesting because, yeah, if

15:05

you totally deprogrammed

15:07

the seeking behavior

15:09

out of a species, that species

15:11

would die off. I mean, it just wouldn't survive.

15:14

Some of what's built into us to survive

15:17

is what drives us, and I find it interesting. There's

15:20

a Buddhist teacher who wants

15:22

said, our survival instinct is great for

15:24

survival, it's just not real

15:26

good for making us happy. It's wired

15:28

these things into us. A

15:30

certain amount of dissatisfaction makes

15:32

you want to procreate, makes you want to eat.

15:35

So I always find it interesting trying to balance

15:37

this um deep spiritual

15:39

aspiration of hitting this point

15:42

of no preferences with what's

15:44

actually likely attainable.

15:46

Otherwise, if we're not careful, we end

15:48

up just always measuring ourselves against

15:51

some spiritual ideal that we can't

15:53

hit. That's just another way of feeling bad

15:55

about ourselves. Yeah, you've just described

15:58

most people's experience as with cathalism,

16:00

you know. And I mean

16:02

also, I think that for everything

16:04

that Zen does, what I

16:07

really appreciate about it is that

16:09

it's not necessarily preaching what should

16:11

be. It just sort of lays out what is. And

16:14

I think that by doing that, it's done

16:16

itself as a movement, religion,

16:19

philosophy, whatever you want to call it,

16:21

has done itself a great favor in not actually

16:24

being hypocritical, because most of

16:26

the things that it mentions

16:29

cause suffering also cause

16:31

people to learn Zen.

16:34

Like a desire to change

16:36

and desire to understand is why

16:38

someone would come to the class in the first place.

16:41

So sure, if they already had it, maybe

16:43

they wouldn't need it, and maybe they wouldn't show up, But

16:45

if they didn't partake in it,

16:47

who would be able to like both spread

16:49

the message and and also enjoy

16:52

the message? You know? Because I think that there are

16:54

a lot of my friends that are very very

16:56

happy um practitioners

16:58

of Zen that are, in my

17:00

opinion, like living

17:02

that enviable life because they are

17:05

like, look, I

17:07

have a couple of things I do that I need to

17:09

do to survive. So maybe I don't love

17:11

my job every second of it, but you know

17:13

what, I go to work and work provides

17:16

me with this thing which does make me happy. So

17:18

I think it's a zero sum total

17:21

of necessity and need and I'm

17:23

having a great time with it. And someone that

17:25

has that outlook is like, wow, that's

17:27

amazing because so many people, especially growing

17:30

up like in America, so many people are

17:32

trying to climb. Even people

17:34

who are already on the upper echelonge society

17:36

are like trying to like climb

17:39

or beat something. Even if they grew up

17:41

a billionaire, they're trying to beat their dad's company.

17:43

It's like, you know, so much

17:45

desire, so much wants, so much seeking, and

17:48

I think that the seeking that brought

17:50

some of my friends to where they are actually ended

17:52

up paying off. You know. So

17:54

let's talk a little bit about you

17:57

and what comedy has done

17:59

for you in your life. In a weird way,

18:02

it makes it sound like an institution

18:05

or like a mentor

18:07

or something, but truthfully, it's

18:09

like changed everything. Like through

18:11

comedy, I've been able to travel, I've been able

18:14

to meet incredible people. It's

18:16

it's it's how I've met some of my best friends.

18:18

It's helped making me want to be a better

18:21

person and like bring more

18:23

of that compassion and levity

18:25

to other people. And it's also made

18:27

me study from a genuine

18:30

place, both myself and other people, because

18:32

if you can understand people, you can make them laugh.

18:34

You know, if you understand what makes them tick, you'll

18:37

understand what they enjoy. If you understand what

18:39

they enjoy, you understand how to like cure

18:41

some of their ales because you'll know where they're coming

18:43

from. And then the more that you understand yourself,

18:46

the more that you understand your reactions

18:48

to things. And I think it's made me the type of person

18:51

that like looks at all sides of a

18:53

thing, because I think that a lot

18:55

of jokes in the world are unfinished

18:57

because they were just very one sided. And

19:00

I think that for everything that you can make a joke about,

19:02

there's like an opposite joke that changes

19:04

the angle, and there's like a diamonds

19:06

worth of angles to every joke. And I think

19:09

that to really start displaying

19:11

a type of mastery and comedy, you have to

19:14

not necessarily have that perspective, but you have to

19:16

be willing to completely change your approach

19:18

and adapt it because you look at comedy

19:21

from the forties and it's like the little

19:23

bit that people do get is like slapstick,

19:25

but there was like really funny social commentary

19:28

being made at the time. But our society has

19:30

changed enough where all that stuff is

19:32

commonplace, you know, And I think that

19:34

there's a lot to still grow

19:36

and learn about each other through comedy,

19:38

and I'm excited to be a part of that. In

19:41

watching some of your comedy, and I

19:43

think this is true of a good

19:45

number of comedians, but certainly not all of them. You

19:47

seem to zero right in on your

19:50

own This might be a stronger

19:52

word than it needs to be, but your own wounds,

19:55

your own places of vulnerability,

19:58

your own places of fear. You

20:00

know. Talk to me about

20:03

how that works for you and

20:05

whether that's a healing process

20:07

for you. I think that for the

20:10

comedians specifically, it can be a

20:12

bit difficult because for

20:14

myself, as Josh, as a comic,

20:17

I have to already be close

20:19

to over something to share it with other people

20:21

and put it out on stage and make jokes about

20:23

it. So for me, the writing

20:25

of it helps in the healing process. The

20:28

actual performing of it is I guess

20:30

therapeutic because I get to make a connection

20:32

with someone who is laughing, which means

20:34

they're agreeing and understanding where I'm coming

20:36

from. But I also think that I

20:39

make it about myself because

20:41

there's a curious stage that's

20:43

been created due to the current climate.

20:45

So like coming from a place now where

20:48

it's very easy to offend people, it's very

20:50

easy being misunderstood. It's very very easy

20:53

for people to almost

20:55

willingly misunderstand you and attack

20:58

you. And I think that I

21:00

separate myself and avoid of

21:04

that by making it about me. You

21:06

can't get offended at my life. You can't

21:08

get offended at my understanding

21:11

of things or what it used to be, because I'm

21:13

laying it all out for you. So if you want to

21:15

get offended at it, that's fine. You

21:17

have a beef with a person that no longer exists.

21:20

And I think by me sharing the things

21:22

that I'm going through or thinking about

21:24

my fears and my my hardships

21:27

and anger and the way those manifest

21:29

to make jokes, it then lets

21:32

people connect with me with an open hand.

21:34

Basically, what I'm trying to do by making the

21:37

jokes about myself and my experiences

21:40

is make it okay for the people

21:42

who have been through the same thing to

21:44

laugh and understand that someone either

21:47

got through it or is going through what they went through,

21:49

or sees the thing the way they see it.

21:51

But it also doesn't push away

21:54

or alienate the people who haven't been

21:56

through what I've been through. So by

21:58

just talking about my self, it's an open

22:00

door to the experience, whether you're going through

22:03

it or not, and then my reaction to

22:05

it. So I still have a

22:07

lot of time left in my career to talk about

22:09

real trauma, real problems and

22:11

try to make them funny. For the most part,

22:14

in the beginning catalog of my

22:16

work, I stay mainly very silly

22:18

and like would talk about things I

22:20

was just super super over because

22:22

it happened in high school, college,

22:25

when I moved to Chicago, little things

22:27

living in New York, stuff like that. And

22:29

as I'm mature, I've been veering into

22:32

more um I wouldn't say dicey

22:34

territory, but just like more strange

22:36

and controversial topics, you know. And

22:39

I don't do that to be inflammatory

22:41

or to get a rise out of people. I do it because

22:44

as a person, I am just now coming in contact

22:47

with a way to articulate these

22:49

things that people will understand where I'm coming

22:51

from, and not just saying it to say it. Do

23:44

you think that the things that you are willing to

23:47

write about and then perform

23:49

you said you kind of have to be in a place where you're sort of over

23:51

them. Do you think that it's often

23:54

the writing of it and the joking

23:56

about it that gets you over it, or

23:58

do you have to get over it first to get to

24:00

a point where you can do that, or a little

24:02

of both. I do think it's different for every

24:04

person. I know some people who genuinely

24:08

exercise all their David's on stage,

24:10

and it can be beautiful

24:13

and it can also be a train wreck, depending

24:15

on their level of experience and their level of

24:17

like mastery with communicating

24:20

ideas. I know that for me, there

24:23

is very little that I'm not willing to

24:25

try to figure out in front of an audience

24:27

because I would rather kick myself

24:30

and be disappointed and how

24:32

the performance went later because I tried,

24:35

rather than still being nervous

24:38

to try it again, like I had

24:40

experience in Chicago,

24:43

but like it's so silly now, but

24:45

like in my twenty two year old

24:47

mind at the time, it was like life changing.

24:49

But basically I was in

24:52

this comedy competition very like low

24:54

level, like dude, this is like a

24:56

bar show. This is like there's not a

24:58

big deal at all. But I was

25:00

told by the organizer and

25:02

and maybe even another person that was supposed

25:04

to be clean, right, you had to be completely clean,

25:08

And then like the first person went up

25:10

and they weren't clean at all. They were like actually super

25:12

dirty, and then the second person was,

25:14

and the third person was, and then the host kind

25:16

of tried to remind them, but then like

25:18

as the night went on, even the host started

25:20

like getting dirty because it was just too hard to

25:22

get people's attention and get laughs in the

25:25

room outside of like doing that

25:27

thing. And then I went up and I did my

25:29

set and I stayed clean, and like I

25:31

had a couple of jokes that I wanted to do that weren't

25:33

necessarily dirty, but they weren't in that like

25:35

family friendly whatever, cookie cutter

25:38

clean thing, which I don't know why we were doing because

25:40

there were no kids and it wasn't

25:42

like a Christian of it. It was at a bar, so

25:44

I was like, I don't even know why. And

25:46

then after the competition

25:49

I had to leave to do another show, and so

25:52

apparently I want, but I didn't get to win because

25:54

I wasn't there to like accept it, and they

25:56

thought that was embarrassing, so they just gave

25:58

it to second place or whatever. And then

26:00

later on I saw a comic who

26:02

also did the show that was like, I know that

26:04

you could have done better, Like, even though you

26:07

want, I know you could have done better, and you held

26:09

yourself back. And even

26:11

though you did well, I know you could

26:14

have done better and you wanted to do better because

26:16

I could see it on your face while you're on stage.

26:18

And ever since then, I've been of a

26:20

mind that it's better that I just go ahead

26:22

and try and maybe fail than to

26:24

not try and be like, well, I'll do the

26:27

joke next time I'm on stage, or

26:29

let me write, let me add

26:31

some more thought to the writing, whatever.

26:34

I think it's okay to just like trip up,

26:36

you know, yeah, just be willing to go for it

26:38

and fail versus not try. It

26:40

makes me think of at a certain point in life, I

26:43

hit this place where I was like, you know what, I

26:45

think the pain of being rejected

26:48

would be less than the pain of continuing

26:51

to be a chicken when it came to like asking

26:53

girls. Yeah, I was like, you know what, all

26:55

right, I'm gonna swap the pain out here. I might get

26:57

rejected, but I just can't live with not trying

27:00

anymore. Yeah. And

27:02

also there's definitely something to be said for

27:04

as much rejection as you fear

27:06

you're gonna get, in real life, you're gonna

27:09

get like maybe

27:11

a tenth of that. And that's

27:13

with all the trying in the world. Like when I

27:15

when I go up like I I've started,

27:18

because comedians talk about bombing, like when

27:20

you truly like fail on stage

27:22

in front of everyone, so you either get no laughs

27:24

or you get booed, or you like turn

27:27

the audience against you whatever. And

27:29

I've found that for me,

27:32

the bomb has

27:34

started to just be not creating

27:37

the vibe that I wanted to create or not

27:39

like. So, so you'll always have some

27:41

sort of critique of yourself,

27:44

and even as you get better at things, that critique

27:46

actually just rises. It's it's one of the

27:48

things that you know, zen actually

27:50

helps people start to move

27:52

away from and eliminate because you're

27:55

always going to have your demons

27:57

chasing you if you never address them. So

28:00

one of my demons definitely is wanting

28:03

to put on like perfect performances all

28:05

the time. And I found

28:08

that I actually rarely

28:10

fail as much as I think I'm going to, and

28:13

I get rewarded for taking chances.

28:15

Because then a joke that in

28:17

my heart I felt I was ready,

28:19

but maybe I wasn't ready to do. When I

28:22

actually tried it and it got all the laughs,

28:24

I'm like, wow, Okay, not only did

28:26

they accept it, but they

28:29

liked it. And that's coming from

28:31

me putting myself out there. Because we're all adults

28:33

now. You know, if you're if you're at

28:35

a comedy club and people paid to

28:37

see you, no one is paying to be nice

28:40

to you, you know, like they

28:42

came to see a good show. So if you give them that good

28:44

show, they're going to be appreciative and they're

28:46

going to like let you know that

28:49

they are coming from the same place as you,

28:51

you know. And so fear of rejection

28:53

definitely stopped me from doing

28:55

a lot of things and halted me before. And

28:57

I think that as I get older, you start

29:00

to care less, you know, you you become like those

29:02

old guys at the gym who I don't

29:04

even wear a towel anymore. They're just like, yeah,

29:08

yeah, I'm here, look at it. What

29:10

are you gonna do? Yep, yep, I'm not old,

29:12

but I'm getting in that neighborhood I can

29:15

certainly speak to like, yeah, it's like wow,

29:17

all right. I never would have dreamt to do in that

29:19

when I was twenty five, But at forty forty

29:21

eight, who cares? I suddenly am

29:24

more able to look at certain old men and be like, I

29:26

can see how he ended up near that outfit. You

29:28

know, ten years ago I'd be like, well, what would

29:30

cause you to possibly look like that? And

29:33

now I'm like, well, I don't know, I can't.

29:36

I'm starting to see the thought process a little

29:38

bit. Yeah.

29:40

So let's talk about mental

29:43

health and comedians. And it's not a subject that

29:45

doesn't come up from time to time that you know,

29:47

comedians have mental health issues? Is it mental

29:49

health that makes people want to go into comedy?

29:51

But let's talk about a depression

29:54

specifically, and the

29:56

role of dealing with depression

29:59

as a comedian, in particular performing

30:01

comedian. Yeah, I mean, I think there's

30:03

a lot to be said for the

30:06

different aspects of depression in

30:08

the brain, whether it's a chemical imbalance or

30:10

whether it's you know, a culture

30:12

that has surrounded you and is trying

30:14

to not in a way that is a conspiracy,

30:17

but just in a way of how we're

30:19

surrounded by both like social media

30:21

expectations and the

30:24

expectation to rise as you get older

30:26

in a capitalist society, all

30:28

of those things can begin to like ring

30:31

the joy I have a person like a rag, because

30:33

then it just feels like it's your job to be happy,

30:36

to make everyone else happy. It's

30:38

your job to not have problems. It's your job

30:40

to fix all those problems when they come along. And

30:42

I think that that's why we're looking at

30:45

like a country and a nation

30:47

of people who are struggling with their mental

30:50

health because of the parameters we've

30:52

set ourselves up in to live. As

30:54

a comedian, I'd like to think that I help

30:56

with easing some of that by

30:59

both poking unadded and reminding

31:02

people that all of these pillars

31:04

of society that you're supposed

31:06

to adhere to in order to be an adult,

31:09

or be a man, or be uh like

31:11

a worthy person of friends and family,

31:13

all those things are made up, and different

31:15

cultures have totally different expectations and

31:18

are going through their own version of those same things,

31:20

And I think that in full examination

31:23

of the world around you and the way

31:25

that it works, it's very easy

31:27

to get discouraged, and it's very easy to get overwhelmed.

31:29

And I think that's why a lot of comedians deal

31:32

with their own forms of depression. If

31:34

you if you sat someone in a room and

31:36

had them examine everything for twenty

31:38

four hours a day, including themselves,

31:41

I think you would get a depressed

31:43

person to a certain degree, you know, like

31:46

if you're paying close attention to everything

31:48

that's happening in the world. A lot of it is

31:50

positive, but a lot of it is not. And

31:53

I think trying to combat that,

31:55

especially with something that can sometimes

31:57

feel so as useless as a joke, you

32:00

know, Like I think that a

32:02

comedian's job is important, but I'm not delusional

32:04

enough to think I'm a doctor or like a

32:07

lawyer that could file someone's appeal and

32:09

help them get out of jail if they're wrongly convicted.

32:11

Like I mean, i feel like I'm armed

32:14

with the power of ideas, but I'm mostly

32:16

powerless in a world that is like completely

32:19

concentrated, run by and obsessed

32:21

with power. And so I think comedians

32:24

have a big struggle with finding

32:26

their place in social commentary

32:29

and finding their niche of like what

32:31

success means to them and how much of that is

32:34

necessary in order to convey their message

32:37

or make them happy. And

32:39

I think that even with like my own

32:41

levels of depression and everything, like

32:43

I said, writing the joke and

32:46

coming to conclusions about it, especially

32:48

ones that are funny and make other people laugh, it

32:50

takes some of the power away from my situation,

32:53

and it uses that power to make

32:55

other people laugh and bring

32:57

levity to their life. But I think that along

32:59

that road, especially when it's not working,

33:02

it can be an even more bitter one

33:04

to travel down. Because now, let's

33:06

say, you know, I used to always

33:08

say that, um, if

33:10

I try to be so honest on stage

33:13

sometimes that if I bomb, that's just a

33:15

thing a bunch of strangers know about me. Now

33:17

like now now we're now we're just

33:19

in it together because now you didn't think it

33:21

was funny and it happened. So I

33:24

don't know, I don't know where we go from here. And I

33:26

mean, to a certain degree, the same way that

33:29

people have the stereotype of actors

33:31

going to acting because they want attention,

33:34

I think that there's a stereotype about

33:36

comedians that I am not sure it's wholly untrue

33:39

that there's nothing mentally healthy

33:41

about airing out your laundry for the approval

33:43

of a bunch of strangers. This is essentially

33:46

a lot of what we talk about, especially

33:48

the ones of us who are very raw.

33:51

Um should just be said to a clinical

33:54

psychologist or a therapist that may be dealt

33:56

with, and instead we air

33:58

it out so that other will know that this other

34:01

thing is more normal. There are plenty of subjects

34:03

that I think if comedians talked about

34:05

more, they get rewarded for talking about

34:07

if you pay attention, you know, like like I

34:09

think that Ali Wong has done tremendous

34:12

things for not just women

34:14

in comedy, but women to have aspects

34:16

of their lives and their pregnancies

34:19

and their attitudes that are finally

34:21

addressed by someone that they admire, that

34:23

has the confidence to stand from thousands of people

34:25

and talk about it from their own perspective, and

34:28

then that person goes out into the world

34:30

and maybe they have a little bit more confidence

34:32

about it. You know. I think that so much

34:35

pain and so much aggression

34:37

and misunderstandings

34:39

just come from a place of not knowing, not

34:41

so much not accepting. So when

34:44

comedians bring up things as a joke that

34:46

normally would start a fistfight at

34:48

a Thanksgiving table, you do walk

34:50

away with that understanding.

34:53

You laughed at it, and maybe

34:55

it changed your perspective on a thing that

34:57

you thought you were decided on, Because especially

35:00

if a person can make a joke catchy

35:02

and repeatable to the point where you're

35:04

like a George Carlin, where people are repeating

35:06

your joke at a party, commentary,

35:08

or thought, I think that that permeates

35:10

the culture. And not to say that

35:13

comedians should be like lauded or

35:15

all of us should receive millions of dollars. I

35:17

mean, that'd be nice, but I understand

35:19

that that's like a lofty dream.

35:22

I just wish that people did

35:24

recognize how much of what

35:26

comedians say permeates the culture

35:28

and the responsibility that we take in like

35:31

addressing our own and the

35:33

world's mental health when we're either

35:35

talking about or not talking about it. For some, For

35:37

some comedians, just being up there is

35:40

like a champion of their

35:42

fears of their mental health state

35:44

because they have depression and they couldn't

35:46

get out of bed this morning, and maybe someone

35:49

did have to drag them to the comedy club or

35:51

to their to their show, and they

35:53

share their gift freely with the

35:55

rest of the world, even though they're in deep, deep

35:57

pain. And it's a testament, just

35:59

like you see those Olympic runners

36:01

who maybe pulled a calf muscle

36:03

in practice and they still show up to the Olympics

36:05

and run for a gold medal. Do

36:49

you think that comedians are drawn

36:51

to comedy because of

36:54

underlying issues or do you think that

36:57

comedy exacerbates mental

36:59

health or a little of both. It's like the kind of the question

37:01

I used to ask myself, you know, at

37:03

a certain point as a teenager, like is

37:05

it the depressing music I'm listening to

37:07

that's making me depressed? Or am I

37:10

drawn to the depressive music

37:12

because I'm already depressed? Like what's the relationship

37:15

here? Is listening to the Smith's bad for me?

37:17

Is it healing? It's I can't quite tell.

37:20

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both of the things that

37:22

you listed, because I think that people they

37:25

do generally work in spirals

37:27

the same way that you know, you talk about feeding

37:29

the wolf. It's like, well, look, if

37:31

you if you have to, and you

37:33

feed one now the one that you fed

37:35

has the energy the next time you're at

37:37

the cave or whatever to come back and run

37:40

up to you first and take the next meal

37:42

and the next meal and the next meal, while the other side

37:44

is starving. So I think that a lot of comedians,

37:46

like I know, I was definitely depressed

37:48

a lot as a kid and young adult,

37:51

and you know, I still, I still have my bouts.

37:53

And I think that I was a specific

37:56

case because I felt at least

37:58

like comedy was the only thing I was at, so

38:01

then it felt like a no brainer to try to

38:03

like make it work one

38:05

way or another, no matter what. But

38:07

I also think that comedy can

38:10

exacerbate those things because you

38:12

have so much writing on your

38:15

perspective. You live and die by your word,

38:18

and when people misunderstand

38:20

it or they just

38:22

don't get it, it does hurt. People's

38:25

fear of public speaking is slightly

38:28

rational. It does suck very much

38:30

for a group of people to just stare at you,

38:32

like what are you talking about? Like that's

38:34

a terrible feeling. And you

38:37

know, especially the way that comedy used to work,

38:39

because in those rock star days of like

38:42

you know, Sam Kennison and like

38:44

um Mark Marin's old

38:47

sort of front half of his career

38:49

where everyone was doing drugs and like clubs

38:52

and bars and didn't necessarily have cash,

38:54

or they were trying to pay you in drinks, which like

38:57

still kind of happens today from time to time.

38:59

It's like, why do you think there are so many

39:01

alcoholics doing comedy. It's like they

39:03

get paid in drinks. So not only

39:05

did they take all of their pain and

39:08

sometimes it's not pain. There are a lot of comics

39:10

who stay very silly, who are very funny,

39:12

who don't touch on social issues at all,

39:15

and I respect and love, but

39:17

they still took all

39:19

of their brain power, all of their intellect

39:21

to create something that lots of people

39:23

enjoyed. And maybe because

39:25

they're not business savvy enough, or because they're

39:28

not greedy enough, or because they're desperate,

39:30

they didn't get a cut and all those people

39:32

showing up to enjoy their work, or maybe

39:34

no one showing up at all, and

39:37

so now they're paid for it with

39:39

a beer. And it's like this little

39:42

level of distraction is all of your

39:44

your efforts are worth? Can feel that way,

39:47

you know, Like because I don't drink, so

39:49

I've had people try to pay me and beers and

39:51

I'm like, well, I guess you're just not paying me, Like I

39:55

don't, I don't know what we're going to do about this. So,

39:57

you know, I think that comedians are

40:00

onto comedy both because it

40:02

lifts a lot of the aspects

40:04

of depression, but also because it can be

40:06

that extra downward spiral that you need.

40:09

Some people ride comedy like it's

40:11

taking them somewhere, but it really

40:13

is. You drive in the car, so you

40:15

know, you'll see comedians who have a

40:18

tough time and then all their jokes are full

40:20

of venom and spite and anger, and

40:22

it's like, all right, that's what

40:25

you turned the comedy into because that's what you

40:27

thought, either thought was funny or what you're

40:29

feeling, and you don't care if it's funny or not. And

40:31

then you see people get to such

40:34

a happy place that all

40:36

their jokes are just like completely

40:38

light, and it's like that's what they created with

40:40

it, you know. So

40:43

what about you in your own life, Like do

40:45

you use strategies, emotional

40:48

strategies or self help strategies to deal

40:50

with your depression. I've definitely

40:53

come to an understanding about myself that

40:55

I almost need to time things out, like

40:57

I'll feel a certain way about something or

41:00

or even better yet, I'll be in a mood. Right,

41:02

So, I'm in a mood, and I've

41:04

at least been lucky enough to

41:06

surround myself with good people and been

41:08

alive long enough to have those

41:11

moments where I'm like, all right, I'm in a

41:13

mood. Maybe it'll pass,

41:15

maybe it won't, but for right now, I'm not

41:17

going to act on anything with

41:20

this mood in mind, you know. So

41:22

if that means I stay in all day, I stay

41:24

in all day that. If that means I have to

41:26

go somewhere, then I will go. But

41:29

I'm I'm just going to be very aware

41:31

of myself. And it's one of the things that I

41:33

got out of reading a lot of Zen back

41:35

in the day when I lived in Chicago, because

41:38

it was one of the first things

41:40

that really captured me and

41:42

wasn't in any argument with. So there

41:45

are lots of sacred text, lots of

41:47

religious writings or self help

41:49

books whatever that because

41:51

you're reading the way that reading works.

41:54

When you're reading, you're talking your head.

41:57

You hear your own voice reading the thing in

41:59

your head. But when it's something that you don't

42:01

agree with, or something that's annoying, or

42:03

something you don't believe, or something you don't

42:05

understand. It creates an argument

42:07

in your head, you know, it creates

42:10

this like, well, no, that doesn't make any

42:12

sense, that's crazy. Why would you? And

42:14

Zen writings were the first thing that I

42:17

read where there was no argument, not

42:19

because I agreed with it, but because there

42:21

was nothing to be agreed with or

42:24

fought against, you know, it

42:26

just was it was like, are

42:28

you unhappy? If you're not unhappy,

42:31

then hey, you're fine.

42:33

But if you are unhappy, maybe this

42:35

is something that you could do about it. Maybe

42:38

it's not, maybe you have a different

42:40

path. And it just felt like talking

42:42

to someone who actually understood, you

42:44

know, it felt like talking to someone because

42:47

because sometimes people can be so close

42:49

to you and love you so much. This

42:51

is a thing that happens with every single person,

42:53

but it also happens with comedians sometimes,

42:56

where people love you so much that

42:58

they won't let you bomb. So if friends

43:00

are there, they're gonna laugh at your joke,

43:02

even if it's not funny, even if they heard a hundred

43:04

times. But then the people who don't know you are giving

43:07

you the honest reaction of like nothing,

43:09

like this isn't funny, or like I don't

43:12

get it. And it's

43:14

a trap that some people get in in comedy,

43:16

especially in that open mic stage, because

43:19

you're an open micro you make friends with a bunch of

43:21

open micros. Then you almost start playing

43:23

to the room. You start playing to your friends as

43:25

opposed to playing to the crowd and trying to get better

43:28

as a comic. The same thing happens with

43:30

life. So you can surround yourself with people

43:32

who love you so much that they won't let you fail.

43:34

They won't tell you when you're wrong, they won't

43:36

tell you the hard things that you have to do how

43:39

to fix them, and they'll make excuses for

43:41

you. And if you live in that, then

43:43

you're never going to improve as a person. You're never gonna

43:45

be happier as a person because you're never going to address

43:47

anything that you do that's making you unhappy.

43:50

And it felt like when I was reading those Zen

43:53

meditations that it was the first time

43:55

that someone was like not judging

43:58

but also not hyping up.

44:00

You know, you can read aize self health books

44:02

that are like you deserve to be happy,

44:04

and it's like, look, I'm not I'm

44:07

not trying to be a jerk, but maybe not everybody

44:09

deserves to be happy. There are people

44:11

doing terrible things in the world, and

44:13

maybe they do deserve to feel sad about

44:15

them for a little while because it proves that they're human

44:18

and that they have a conscience. So

44:20

they're definitely people who

44:22

give you loving advice that's coming from the wrong

44:24

place. You see it a lot with friends.

44:27

Friends give some of

44:29

the worst dating advice you can imagine,

44:31

because not only are they not

44:34

dating the person you're dating, but you've

44:36

never dated them and they've never dated

44:38

you to see what type of partner

44:41

you are. So then you tell them

44:43

the scenario. You obviously tell it to him with

44:45

bias because you're upset, and they tell

44:47

you know you deserve better than that, but they

44:49

weren't there. So

44:53

now you go back hyped up

44:55

and you make it worse because your friend

44:57

was like, no, Doc, you're better than that. Don't

45:00

take it. And and comedy

45:02

does the same thing sometimes, And I think

45:04

that levels of depression can

45:06

work in that same way, where the things

45:08

that feel good and normal and familiar

45:10

that you're attracted to, sometimes they

45:12

lead to your depression. Sometimes they just don't

45:15

get you out of it. And when I

45:17

was reading these texts, it was the first time

45:19

that I was like, Wow, Okay,

45:21

this is my plan thus far. It

45:23

may change and it may not even be a good plan.

45:26

I may have to adapt it. But when

45:28

I get depressed, I'm going to

45:30

take a second, even if it is literally

45:32

just one second, and be like, this

45:35

is where you are, and

45:37

then deal with it from there. And

45:39

sometimes that that leads to me

45:42

making really good decisions and being very pragmatic,

45:45

and other times it leads to me not taking

45:47

enough action. But at least if I'm

45:49

honest with myself and aware of myself,

45:52

I can I can move forward in a way that I won't

45:54

regret later. I can proudly say

45:56

that ever since I've read those

45:58

books, and I had had long bouts

46:01

without reading any Zen writings

46:03

anything like I'm not a Buddhist or anything,

46:06

but I can tell you that when

46:08

I was twenty two three and

46:10

I was reading I was just devouring all these

46:13

books about it. Even though I haven't

46:15

read them as much since, it

46:18

really changed my life in the way

46:20

of taking a step back, even

46:22

sometimes in the moment, giving

46:24

it a good think. And I've had

46:27

way less outbursts. I've had way less

46:29

downward spirals. And I think that that's

46:32

mainly due not just a maturity and getting

46:34

older and caring about different things,

46:36

but also because I set that mindset

46:38

at such an early adult

46:41

age that now it's how

46:43

I plug into everything. You know, Yeah,

46:46

totally. You made me think of a bunch

46:48

of different things. They're one of them. Was There's

46:50

always this balance with

46:52

the people in our lives. And I've run

46:55

into this as a as a coach. I coach people

46:57

for a living right, all right, you know, I've got to stand

47:00

you. I want to make you feel understood. I

47:02

want to make it okay to be where

47:04

you are. And

47:07

I think you might need a little

47:10

you know, you might need to be pushed a little

47:12

bit or pulled a little bit, you know. And

47:14

I think it's always it's always a challenging

47:17

balance to do with with people we care

47:19

about. Is like, all right, you

47:21

know, commiserate, but

47:23

also at what point do you

47:26

advocate for a different perspective,

47:28

a change of action, behaving

47:30

differently all of that. It's it's such

47:32

a nuanced thing to know the

47:34

right thing to do. Yeah, And

47:36

and it's tough too because there are a lot of people

47:39

who like go to therapy,

47:41

let's say, and you know, don't

47:44

always recognize that their therapist is just

47:46

another person and it's just it's

47:48

just trying to navigate both their own life

47:50

and how to help people. And so sometimes

47:53

whether it's due to the form of therapy the

47:56

person doing the therapy, I've

47:58

seen people almost of that

48:00

same like misplace hyped

48:03

up response to

48:05

stibulus, as as

48:07

if their friend gave them some bad advice. Because

48:10

I don't know how rooted in psychology

48:12

it's been since talk therapy was introduced,

48:14

but there's for many a distinct

48:16

belief that if people talk things out enough,

48:18

they'll come to the right conclusion themselves.

48:21

And it's like, look, I

48:23

I think plenty of people can do that, but I think depending

48:26

on the person in the situation, you

48:28

do have to step in sometimes and be like, because

48:31

you're looking at it this way, you're

48:33

always going to veer off because

48:36

of the initial seed that you planted

48:38

of this isn't my fault or

48:41

everyone else around me is against me, or

48:43

whatever thought that is. And don't get me wrong,

48:45

sometimes people are right, like like the way

48:48

that I always try to air out things

48:50

with my friends when they have grievances, uh,

48:52

not necessarily with me, but just with their world

48:55

or their partner or whatever. Is. I

48:57

always am like, look, there

48:59

is a case that you're right.

49:02

What are you going to do about that? You

49:05

know, even if you're right, where are

49:07

we going to move from here? If the entire

49:09

point of this fight is to be right, then

49:11

let's pretend you're already there because you think you are,

49:14

so how are you going to be happy? Now? You

49:17

know? And I think that that

49:19

is where I try to be, and that's where comedy

49:21

has brought me. Is that I looked out

49:23

at the world and I saw this especially was

49:26

really little, like really young. I saw

49:28

this like super unfair, super

49:30

racist, super evil, misogynistic,

49:34

painful world. And then

49:36

as I got a little bit older and started

49:38

like, whether it's reading like your Bible

49:41

or the Zen teachings or

49:44

Koran or just psychology

49:46

books for for people who are agnostic

49:49

or atheist or anything like that, whatever you

49:51

do to try to seek out some form

49:54

of understanding about the world around you. I

49:57

think that when you do it with an

49:59

honest and genuine intention,

50:01

you're going to find something that you

50:04

can resonate with and for

50:06

me that was comedy more so than anything

50:09

else. You know, it was like, comedy

50:11

is how I deal with how unfair

50:13

the world is, and it's how I point out all the

50:15

great things about the world, you know, because,

50:17

like you, if you just watch

50:20

mainstream news and you

50:22

just stay in tune with the

50:25

legislative branch and you just

50:27

stick to all the factual, matter

50:29

of facty things about the world, it

50:31

looks like a bleak place. But inside

50:34

and behind and around all

50:36

of those things are beautiful,

50:39

perfect examples of a

50:41

wonderful human nature and a

50:44

great place to live your life,

50:46

you know, like like this earth isn't

50:48

perfect, but it's a it's a nice place to be, especially

50:51

if you make an effort to make it one wonderful.

50:53

I think that is a great place to wrap

50:56

it up. I love that underneath, around,

50:58

behind, there's always be Yeah.

51:00

I love that. So thank you so much for taking

51:02

the time to come on. It has been a real pleasure

51:05

talking with you. I do appreciate

51:07

it. Thanks for having me man. I hope I didn't talk

51:09

your head off. That's

51:11

the point of this, that's the point. Yeah, great

51:13

to meet you. Yeah, thanks again, it's been a real

51:15

pleasure, take care. If

51:33

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