0:00

There's a huge difference between

0:02

being here for life and being

0:05

in a conversation about

0:07

life.

0:15

Welcome to the one you feed throughout

0:18

time. Great thinkers have recognized the

0:20

importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

0:22

like garbage in, garbage out,

0:25

or you are what you think ring

0:27

true, and yet for many of

0:29

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

0:31

us. We tend toward negativity,

0:34

self pity, jealousy, or

0:36

fear. We see what we don't have

0:38

instead of what we do. We think

0:40

things that hold us back and dampen our

0:42

spirit. But it's not just about

0:44

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:47

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:49

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:52

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

0:54

moving in the right direction, how they

0:56

feed their good wolf m

1:11

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this

1:13

episode is Mary O'Malley, an

1:15

author, teacher, and counselor whose

1:17

work awakens others to the joy

1:20

of being fully alive. Her inspired

1:22

and transformative approach to compulsions

1:24

offers a way to replace fear, hopelessness,

1:27

and struggle with ease, well being,

1:29

and joy through her individual

1:32

counseling and coaching books, classes,

1:34

retreats and ongoing groups. Mary

1:36

invites people to experience the miracle

1:38

of awakening. Mary clearly

1:40

sees both the big picture and the details

1:43

of human patterns and conditioning. She

1:45

possesses an extraordinary ability to

1:47

understand and connect with people, and she

1:50

is skilled in empowering people to work with

1:52

difficult mind states, resulting

1:54

in greater inner awareness and presence

1:56

and greater capacity for joy. Her

1:58

latest book is called What's in the Way

2:01

Is the Way? Hey, everybody,

2:03

We've finished the first round of the one you

2:05

Feed coaching program with a bunch

2:07

of people who have successfully made significant

2:10

and sustained changes in their lives. I'm

2:12

happy for all of them and have enjoyed getting

2:15

to know and working with everybody. We've

2:17

incorporated their feedback into the program,

2:19

and as a result, it has evolved into an

2:21

even more robust experience. We

2:24

are now ready to make it available to you starting

2:26

today. One of the changes we've made to better

2:29

serve you is to have a limited window

2:31

of time during which people can sign up. Starting

2:33

today, you can go to one you feed dot

2:36

net slash coaching program and

2:38

sign up to learn more. This window

2:40

will be open for the next two weeks. The

2:43

enrollment window will close at midnight

2:45

on May which also happens

2:47

to be my birthday. If you're interested, don't

2:50

put off looking into and signing up for the program.

2:52

You can make the changes to your life that you've

2:54

been considering. I'd love for you to be

2:56

one of the success stories here, so go to

2:59

one you feed net slash

3:01

coaching program and get started today.

3:04

And here is the interview with Mary O'Malley.

3:06

Hi, Mary, welcome to the show. I'm so glad

3:09

to be here. He are right. I am very excited

3:11

to get you on. Your book is called

3:13

What's in the Way Is the Way?

3:15

Which the minute I heard the title, I was like, I think I

3:17

want to talk to her, and after having

3:20

read the book, I want to even more

3:22

so I'm looking forward to getting into

3:25

your book. You cover a lot of topics

3:27

that we spend time on talking on the

3:29

show a lot, and you've got some interesting perspectives

3:31

on all of it. So we will get to that in a

3:33

minute. But we're gonna start like we always

3:35

do, with the parable. There is a grandmother

3:38

who's talking with her granddaughter and she says,

3:40

in life, there are two wolves

3:43

inside of us that are always at battle one

3:45

is a good wolf, which represents

3:47

things like kindness and bravery and love,

3:50

and the other is a bad wolf, which represents

3:52

things like greed and hatred and fear.

3:55

And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for

3:57

a second, and she looks up at her grandmother and she says,

3:59

well, grandmother, we juan wins, and

4:01

the grandmother quietly says, the one

4:03

you feed. So I'd

4:06

like to start off by asking you what

4:08

that parable means to you in your

4:10

life and in the work that you do. Well,

4:13

it's been around for many years,

4:16

and it comes from

4:19

what I call duality.

4:22

You know, there's a good part of us

4:25

and then there's a bad part of

4:27

us. And I think if we

4:29

look at history, uh,

4:31

we will see that actually

4:34

fighting the bad always

4:37

empowers the bad.

4:41

And if you look at the you

4:43

know, to me, one of the most uh important

4:45

symbols that have ever been on this

4:47

planet is the yin and yang symbol. And

4:51

here is the dark and the light that

4:53

they aren't on opposite sides

4:55

of a line, that they're

4:58

actually inner twine

5:00

mind. And in the dark

5:02

is a point of light, and in the

5:04

light is a point of dark.

5:06

So in my experience, I

5:09

tried to get rid of the bad,

5:12

you know. And I'm a Taurus, so I have a very

5:14

very strong will. And a great

5:16

example out of my life is that

5:19

I learned how to take care

5:21

of the heartache of my childhood through

5:24

eating. I started. The first memories

5:26

is when I was around ten, and then

5:28

I dieted and ate

5:31

and dieted and ate, and

5:34

and then being a Taurus. Uh,

5:36

you know, I once went

5:38

one month without food, and two

5:41

more times, two more times for two

5:43

weeks without food, and a number of one

5:45

week periods without food, because

5:48

by God, I was gonna

5:50

get rid of this urge to

5:52

overeat. And it eventually

5:55

brought me to the place where I gained ninety seven

5:57

pounds in a year. And it

6:00

was only when I began to realize

6:02

that, yes, there are these

6:05

two parts of me. But

6:08

rather than trying to starve

6:11

the so called bad, I

6:13

like to use the word dark, uh, you

6:16

know, much more than bad or evil. Rather

6:18

than trying to starve it or make

6:20

it bad or wrong. Uh,

6:22

my work is about creating

6:26

a relationship with it. And

6:28

it's very interesting that the statistic

6:30

that I want to bring into this conversation

6:32

is that the US certain General's report

6:35

is ninety eight percent of every

6:37

pound that is lost

6:39

in America is gain

6:42

back plus some within

6:45

a year and a half. And that's

6:47

what I think. We're beginning to take another

6:50

step beyond that parable and

6:52

realize that what we fight, we

6:55

actually in power. And

6:57

it was when I learned how

6:59

to be in relationship with

7:01

this so called bad part of me that

7:04

would you know, just eat absolutely

7:06

everything uh under the

7:08

sun, that it began

7:10

to calm down. And now, you know, I lost the

7:12

extra weight, and now a body stays

7:15

the same weight, you know, and and I

7:17

can eat whatever I want and have for years.

7:20

So that's my offering to this

7:22

conversation is that it is

7:24

in creating a relationship

7:26

with the so called dark side

7:29

that you actually uh

7:31

heal excellent And your book at

7:33

its heart really says

7:36

that most

7:39

of our life, the challenges

7:42

that we face and the trouble that we face

7:44

are a result of the fact that we

7:46

basically are struggling with the

7:49

way everything is. You basically use an analogy

7:52

of we are always in what

7:54

you call a peaceful meadow, but

7:56

that we are surrounded by clouds

7:59

of struggle, and those clouds of struggle

8:01

are largely self

8:03

invented. And I think it's really important

8:06

too. I wouldn't quite use

8:08

the words self invented that

8:10

when we were young there,

8:12

when we first showed up here, we

8:15

were like dry

8:18

sponges and there wasn't

8:20

a thought in our head and

8:22

we just absorbed the

8:26

uh energy of

8:28

the people around us. I'd

8:30

like to say, if our parents were arguing in a soundproof

8:33

room down the basement, we were up in the attic, we

8:35

could feel it. So it

8:37

is, it's like we send

8:40

it down from generation to generation.

8:42

We absorbed what I called

8:44

the condition self or

8:47

what Eckart tole A calls the mind

8:49

made me. That our

8:52

mind actually makes this me that talks

8:54

all day long. And if you had a little door on

8:56

your forehead and you could open it up and

8:58

watch what it's due going. It's

9:01

mainly struggling with

9:04

life. Usually little struggles,

9:06

you know, like the length of the stop light or

9:09

how your hair looks on a particular day.

9:11

But it can struggle. It can go all the

9:13

way into you know, life

9:15

at death struggles. Just because your

9:18

UH boyfriend didn't call you

9:21

when he said he was going to call you. And

9:23

so we are I like to say, we're

9:25

addicted to struggle, and yet

9:28

that's not who we are. That's something that

9:30

was conditioned into

9:32

us. There are so many lines from the book

9:34

that I love. I could probably just read

9:37

them over and over to the audience and they

9:39

would do well. And I'm going to put some

9:41

of the favorite ones that I had in a

9:43

downloadable we'll have which we

9:45

can listeners can get it one you feed

9:48

dot net slash Mary, but I'm going

9:50

to read one right now because this, I

9:52

think describes me very

9:55

well. One of the mind's favorite

9:57

ways of staying distracted and far away

9:59

from what you're experiencing is to create

10:01

problems and then try to figure out how

10:04

to fix them. In fact, it could be said

10:06

that your mind is a problem factory, churning

10:08

out problems all day long. It

10:11

is astounding to recognize that once it solves

10:13

one problem, there is usually only

10:15

a very short period of time before

10:17

it comes up with another problem.

10:20

And we keep on feeling that

10:22

if we just solve this,

10:24

if we change our husband,

10:26

or if we lose ten pounds, or if we

10:28

win the lottery, then

10:30

everything would be okay.

10:33

But we don't see that

10:35

that puts these clouds between

10:37

us and the living experience of life

10:40

that really what we long

10:43

for is not the

10:45

uh joy of the fancy new

10:47

car. That's that's you

10:49

know, kind of a fake joy.

10:52

We long for the joy

10:54

of coming back to life, to actually

10:57

be here for life, and

11:00

most people are not. They think their

11:02

way through their lives. You talk

11:05

a lot about sort of like a low grade

11:07

suffering that permeates us, and and

11:10

I definitely have that

11:12

problem mind. I've gotten a lot better

11:15

at learning not to listen to it so much.

11:17

But one of the things that you talk about

11:19

is that the problem mind is largely

11:21

driven by what you call the storyteller.

11:24

And we we talk on the show all the time

11:27

about the stories that we tell ourselves.

11:29

And so my question for you

11:32

is, and I'm going to see if I can articulate

11:34

this well, because largely

11:37

what you're what you're suggesting is that we

11:39

turned towards the

11:42

things in our life that seem problematic

11:45

and we experience what those emotions

11:47

are. And that makes total sense. And

11:49

again it's something that we talk a lot on

11:52

this show about. We also talk about

11:54

not believing the thoughts that

11:57

you have. And so I'm curious about

12:00

Let's just take an example of I

12:02

am telling myself a story

12:04

about how nobody

12:06

likes me because for

12:08

whatever reason, nobody was friendly to me

12:11

today. So there's there's two options

12:13

that I can go to. Their one would be I

12:15

could go into what that feeling feels

12:18

like and turned towards it. The

12:20

other option is to recognize that

12:22

what I'm telling myself there is

12:25

probably not true, and so I'm

12:27

not going into the feeling and experiencing

12:29

it. In that case, I'm actually trying

12:32

to, you know, more of a cognitive behavioral

12:34

therapy way. I'm trying to sort of recognize

12:37

the untruth of that thought. And

12:39

I'm curious, from your perspective,

12:41

are those both just different tools that we use

12:44

to get to the same place or help me understand

12:46

how you balance those two things, beautiful

12:49

question. So down towards the end of the book,

12:51

there's what you call the four lets, and

12:54

the first let is uh

12:58

let life. There are

13:01

challenges that each one of us

13:03

have that bring

13:05

up such deep feelings,

13:08

you know, like the illness of a

13:11

loved one or our own illness,

13:13

or a foreclosure on our house,

13:16

or you know, we're involved in a

13:19

robbery. You know that they come into

13:21

our house and there's just so

13:23

much they get stirred up that we have

13:26

very little option until we

13:28

have awakened for a long time to actually

13:30

stand with these feelings and

13:33

let the move through us. And that's

13:35

where we use the art of living

13:37

in questions, we actually turn it

13:39

over to life. Then the

13:41

next is let it be. And that's

13:43

a big chunk of this work of where

13:45

you learn how to actually

13:49

bring your attention into

13:52

your immediate experience.

13:55

And you can do that in your body, with

13:57

the emotions, with this stories,

14:01

and you begin to realize the power

14:05

of focused human attention

14:09

to heal what

14:12

I call bound up energy. A lot of people call them

14:14

feelings. They're really bound up energy.

14:16

It's all it is. And we're

14:19

discovering that when our energy and

14:21

our immediate experience come together,

14:24

than these ancient feelings

14:27

they move through

14:29

us. That's when you begin

14:32

to move. You move to the

14:34

next let, which is let

14:36

it go. And the more you do

14:39

that that there's something about not

14:43

just overriding

14:45

a feeling, you will see

14:47

that you know. Uh, let's say

14:49

the boyfriend doesn't call. He said he was

14:51

gonna call it ten and he doesn't call it at all

14:53

until the next day, and we

14:56

have all sorts of feelings about that. But if

14:58

we follow it back, you'll see it's rood. It in

15:00

something very young. And

15:03

so if we just say, you know, that's not true,

15:05

that's not true. Uh, we

15:07

don't go in and and get

15:09

down to the root of it and with our attention

15:12

set it free. But the more you do

15:14

that, the more you come to that place

15:16

you're talking about, something arises

15:19

and you see that's not that's

15:21

not the truth, and you just let

15:23

it go. And then that brings

15:26

well, actually, the better way to say

15:28

it is it let's

15:30

go. But it didn't work

15:33

in my four lets. So but then that

15:35

brings us to the final let

15:38

go that you actually

15:40

begin to open to

15:43

life, not as you want it to

15:45

be, not as you think it should

15:47

be, but you're actually here

15:50

for life, and feelings and thoughts and

15:52

sensations are dancing through you,

15:55

but you are the awareness

15:57

that is present for it all. The

16:00

warmth of the sun, the

16:02

sadness into your chest, the

16:05

wonderful taste of the morning

16:07

coffee, whatever. That's who

16:09

we are. And those four lets really

16:11

help you to see how we can

16:14

move into let go. You

16:38

say that learning to see what your mind is

16:40

really doing rather than being lost

16:42

in it is an important step towards

16:45

unhooking from the game of struggle. Right. The

16:48

first step is understanding that

16:51

there is something that talks in your head all day

16:53

long and it's very, very

16:55

busy, and it has an opinion about

16:57

everything, and then

16:59

be getting to think of the possibility

17:02

maybe this

17:04

is not who I

17:07

really am, and my job

17:09

is to make you fascinated. I use the

17:11

word curiosity a lots the

17:13

ability to be curious. So

17:16

it's the difference between saying, you

17:18

know, you have a meeting at work, you know, and

17:21

you have to do a presentation, and

17:23

you know you're sitting in your office before

17:25

the presentation and your heart is

17:27

pounding wildly and you know, sweat

17:30

as driving down your face. Add

17:33

what most of us would say, Oh my god, I'm so I'm

17:35

so afraid. I'm so afraid. You know what, what did

17:37

I learn that class the other day? You know? How can I manage

17:39

this fear? What

17:41

awakening is about is

17:44

the discovering the ability

17:46

to say, ah,

17:48

fear is here, rather

17:51

than I am afraid. And

17:53

the more you can do that, the more you can

17:56

see these different stories

17:58

that most of them are rooted

18:01

in the first six years of their your life. You know,

18:03

that's when the foundations of this storyteller

18:05

were created. And so you get

18:07

familiar with how your anxiousness

18:10

talks, how your terror talks, how

18:12

your despair talks, how your hopelessness

18:14

talks, how your self judgment talks,

18:16

how you're not enoughness talks, and you get

18:18

to know them enough that they arise and

18:21

you say, oh hi, and

18:24

they pass right on

18:26

through. And so this is the sort of

18:29

thing that is traditionally

18:31

very easy to say and much

18:34

harder to actually do.

18:36

And so let's talk a little bit

18:39

about the path from

18:41

I am a identified with

18:44

my thoughts and my emotions to a

18:46

place that I am relatively

18:49

open and spacious around those

18:51

things. It's it's not, at least

18:54

my experience has not been in the experience of a

18:56

lot of people I know. Is you don't go

18:58

from one one of those extreme to the other

19:01

in you know, a couple of days.

19:03

So what what would you say

19:06

to people who are just starting on that process

19:09

about how you work with

19:11

those things because you're maybe

19:13

not and I know the word successful

19:15

is not really we're not trying to be successful,

19:17

right, but but we're not getting

19:20

much space around our

19:22

thoughts were not becoming more spacious

19:24

or more open or more welcoming.

19:26

It's it's a hard process, is what I'm

19:28

saying. But it's the only game in town,

19:31

you know. And uh

19:33

And my main mentor, Stephen Levine,

19:36

was once asked, how long does this take?

19:38

This the mind of how's all the stake, you know? And

19:41

he said it's the work of a lifetime.

19:44

And what I say to that

19:46

is that, uh, it

19:48

really is the way out

19:51

too. It's almost like we've

19:53

been caught in a prison of

19:56

this separate, conditioned

19:59

self. And this

20:01

mind has only been around about a million

20:04

years, you know, you know, give

20:06

or take a few years, so that's a very

20:09

short, you know, segment

20:11

of time, you know, in universal time,

20:14

and so we're very young as a species,

20:17

and we have been totally identified

20:20

with this struggling self. And all

20:23

you have to do is look at history or the Emmy News

20:25

to see what that is like. So

20:27

the first step is beginning to contemplate

20:30

the possibility that maybe whatever

20:32

talks in your head all day long is

20:35

just a condition self. That's

20:37

the first step that begins

20:39

to intrigue us. And

20:42

I would say, well, I I in

20:44

the book, there's uh. At

20:46

the end of each of the ten chapters,

20:48

there's what's called the remembering section.

20:50

And I really started just

20:53

by laying a very basic foundation.

20:55

You know, what we're doing is different than

20:57

anything we've ever done before, and

21:00

this is not something you can do, and you can

21:02

do it right. But what you can

21:04

do is start cultivating

21:07

curiosity. You

21:10

can start doing things like,

21:13

ah, you're saying

21:15

that for five

21:17

minutes every morning, I'm

21:21

going to sit on the porch and

21:23

my intention is to have my attention

21:26

with the sound of the birds and

21:29

the Christmas of the air, or

21:31

the smell of my tea. And

21:33

you'll find that most of the time

21:36

you'll be gone, you'll slip away.

21:39

That's the first step to really see

21:41

there's a huge difference between

21:44

being here for life and being

21:46

in a conversation about

21:49

life in this struggling self.

21:52

When you begin to see that

21:54

there's a huge difference and you

21:56

begin to see what you're missing, you're

21:59

missing life, that the

22:02

the experience, like we knew when we

22:04

were very young, that

22:06

there was no separation between us

22:08

and this living adventure

22:11

of life. That's when

22:13

you begin to feel the passion that

22:16

you don't want to get rid of this storyteller.

22:19

You need it from maneuvering through reality.

22:21

You don't want to make it bad or wrong. It's

22:24

all about becoming curious

22:26

and to give yourself the gift of just five

22:29

minutes a day where you choose one thing

22:31

that you're curious about and bring

22:34

your attention back to it. Now a

22:36

really important point. I

22:39

was a part time meditator for ten years

22:41

and then Stephen Yep,

22:43

yep. And then Stephen told me, he said, you know,

22:46

if you sit for one hour and

22:49

bring your attention back to your focus

22:51

one time in

22:54

that hour, that's time

22:56

well spent. It totally

22:58

changed my experience because before, in

23:00

those ten years, I was trying

23:02

to sit to get some

23:05

place. Now and

23:08

I sit every day and half for decades. Now

23:11

now I am sitting, and I try

23:13

even not to use the word meditation. I Sundays

23:16

call it a returning practice, or I call it a

23:18

listening practice. I'm sitting

23:21

because I want to be curious

23:23

about what sits here. And

23:26

the more I'm curious about what sits

23:28

here, and the more I can see

23:30

how it all operates, the more

23:32

I see through it, and here

23:35

I am back in

23:38

life. Yeah, the term curiosity

23:41

seems to just keep coming up for

23:43

me in I mean, I read

23:46

a lot of stuff, right, I'm talking to somebody every

23:48

week, and that just seems to be a theme that

23:50

keeps coming back. This, this attitude

23:54

of being curious about what's happening

23:56

with ourselves seems to be such a

23:58

powerful thing if we can,

24:01

we can engage in it. Why is

24:03

that because anything

24:05

else beyond curiosity

24:08

is still this fix it problem

24:11

solving mine and

24:13

oh my god, it wanted to problem

24:16

solve. I felt like such a failure.

24:18

I can remember the first long meditation retreat

24:20

I went to it. I would open my eyes and oh my god,

24:23

I knew everybody else was in nirvana there

24:27

that wasn't And now I know that

24:29

World War one, two and three, Vietnam

24:31

War, you know, maybe a little of the rack

24:33

war was going on in everybody's hand,

24:36

you know, but it sure didn't look like

24:39

it. But when I became

24:41

curious, that's when things

24:43

began to open again. And that brings

24:45

us to the second skill. And I

24:47

used to call it compassion, but

24:51

I now call it spaciousness,

24:55

and compassion is

24:58

is an attribute of space. Aciousness,

25:00

also kindness and allowing

25:03

and forgiveness. And acceptance,

25:05

all of those. But the more you're

25:07

curious, and

25:09

the more you can begin to see how

25:12

young this struggling self

25:14

is. You know, in your head, let's

25:16

go back to the boyfriend not calling, you

25:19

know, And now it's an hour later and

25:21

he hasn't called, and there's a voice inside of you

25:23

that says, I'm never going to speak to him again ever

25:25

ever. You know, of course you tomorrow,

25:28

but if you listen, you'll live here how young

25:31

that voice is. And the

25:33

more you see that, the more

25:35

you just begin to have space. Oh

25:38

that's the sad one or the rejected

25:41

one. And the more that you bring

25:43

spaciousness to what's

25:46

going on inside of you, which naturally

25:48

arises from curiosity, the

25:50

more all of this stuff

25:53

can just pass right

25:57

through you. So you

25:59

talk about that, there

26:01

are I think it's eight core

26:05

spells. You call them that basically

26:07

we cast over ourselves, or

26:09

you know, we're cast over us as part of

26:12

our upbringing. Can you explain what you mean

26:14

by spell and maybe give us an example

26:17

of one or two of them. I love the word spells,

26:19

and and this has come out of I've worked

26:21

with people over thirty years now,

26:24

and I've gotten to see into the minds

26:26

of hearts of thousands and thousands

26:28

and thousands of people. And Stephen

26:31

Levine once said, the very

26:33

first time I saw him, he said, you know, I

26:35

want to create a hat. And when you

26:37

put it on your head, it instantaneously

26:39

broadcast over a loud speaker

26:42

all of your thoughts,

26:45

and everybody in the room groaned.

26:48

There was really a collective groan that moved

26:50

through the room. And you know, it's

26:52

it's not only that we don't want other people

26:55

to see what's going on in our story

26:57

teller, but we don't want to see

26:59

what's going on in our storyteller. And

27:01

as I began to listen and you know,

27:04

and I create a safe place where people

27:06

can begin to be real and

27:08

then explore the storyteller,

27:10

I began to see there was eight core spells.

27:13

And I love the word spells

27:15

because it's something that's laid over

27:17

the top of us. It's not

27:20

true, and it can be

27:22

lifted. And let's just do the basic

27:25

thing of let's say your mother was very afraid

27:27

of spiders, so you

27:29

became afraid of spiders.

27:31

So the eight core spells, the first

27:33

two are the basic, you know, the real

27:36

core basic foundational

27:38

spells. You know, I'm separate from life

27:40

and life is not safe. Then there's

27:42

the three you know, operating spells.

27:45

You know, I gotta do life, I

27:47

gotta do it right, and I'm not doing it right enough.

27:50

And if you watch, you'll basically, you

27:52

know, if you had that little door on your forehead and

27:54

you could watch, you'll see that's what the

27:56

storyteller. It's really trying

27:59

really hard to get

28:01

this all together so then it would be

28:03

happy. And that's the fix it mode. That

28:05

that you know. The sad thing about the fix

28:07

it mode is one and a hundred times it works,

28:10

So it's the carrot in front of the dog

28:12

that is the problem is that it occasionally

28:15

works, or it works for a very short amount

28:17

of time, which makes it so much harder to

28:19

see through. It's easy to see through something

28:21

that never works, but that occasional

28:24

challenge, yep, it just keeps us

28:26

sucked into it. But what we don't

28:28

see is all of

28:31

that operating, all

28:33

of that. I gotta do life, and I gotta

28:36

do life right, and I'm not quite doing it right

28:38

enough. And I got to adjust this and lose weight and

28:40

make more money and whatever is

28:43

all trying to take care of

28:45

what I call the three hidden spells.

28:48

And before I say them, you know, I've

28:51

worked with people all all the way

28:53

from CEOs of major

28:55

corporations to UH

28:57

to you know, developmentally

29:00

abled teenagers to you

29:02

know, housewives to therapists, and

29:04

we all have these hidden spells.

29:07

Eric, And the first is because

29:10

I'm not doing it right, I

29:12

am wrong. And

29:14

because I'm wrong, I'm unlovable.

29:17

And because I'm unlovable,

29:20

I am all

29:22

alone. And if

29:24

your listeners would take a moment and

29:27

think about those middle of the night

29:29

things, you know, when you're woken up and the

29:31

mind is just going crazy, you

29:33

know, and you'll see these spells,

29:36

but you'll see it all

29:38

comes to the real core

29:41

spell of this separate self.

29:44

I am all alone.

29:49

So you ask for an example, I think

29:52

that the thing that comes to mind is

29:54

that I really, truly

29:56

I might try to kill myself three times because

30:00

I was completely unlovable.

30:02

I mean not only was I unlovable, I

30:04

was bad and wrong to my core.

30:07

And even at one time I've

30:10

been drinking, it was mad at myself and

30:12

I hit the bed too,

30:14

you know, just I was just so frustrated and there

30:16

was a board, you know, across the end of the bed

30:19

under the Dubai cover, and I just kept on hitting

30:21

it and hitting it until

30:23

I passed out and then woke up the next

30:25

morning with a broken arm. So

30:27

I know those hidden

30:30

spells very well. And

30:32

I tried therapy, and I tried you

30:35

know, uh, psychologist, psychiatrists,

30:38

medication group therapy,

30:40

hypnotherapy, you name it, mental

30:42

hospitals. And it

30:44

wasn't until I began to

30:47

become curious, and

30:49

especially about this judging

30:52

quality in my head

30:54

that I swear I

30:57

went to law school and was

30:59

president a debate club, and

31:02

it could convince me of anything.

31:05

And once I started

31:07

being curious about it, and I actually

31:09

carried a notebook around because I really wanted to

31:11

see this operating. And I started

31:13

looking at I said, I'd never judge you that voice,

31:15

did you know? So I carried a notebook around and

31:18

and I went and and drew

31:20

a wheel on a piece of paper, huge

31:22

piece of paper in my bedroom, and on the spokes

31:25

I began to put all of these

31:27

different things my judger would

31:29

say. And the more I

31:32

could see it, the

31:34

more I unhook from

31:36

it. I call it look to

31:38

unhooked. So here

31:40

I am. I now travel the world, I write

31:43

books. You know, never ever

31:45

had any vision of that whatsoever.

31:48

And every once in a while that judge you will

31:50

come up when I'm I'm you know, very

31:53

very close family member has been

31:55

very ill and uh,

31:57

it's very heartbreaking and uh

32:01

and you know, I work full time

32:03

and try to be there for this family member

32:05

and and at times I just am

32:07

stretched. And when I am, the judger will

32:09

come. But I say, oh, hi, are

32:12

you having a bad day. So

32:15

that's the power of beginning

32:17

to see. That's why I did the spells.

32:20

It's it's all about learning how

32:22

to see how this storyteller

32:25

operates. And in the

32:27

seeing is the movement.

32:29

We don't need to fix it, we don't need to judge

32:31

it, we don't need to rearrange it, rise above

32:33

it, get rid of it. In

32:35

the seeing is the movement. And that's

32:38

what we're discovering the power

32:40

of human attention to

32:43

heal. Yeah, And I think that's one of those

32:45

things that we were talking a little bit earlier about

32:47

how this isn't easy and it doesn't

32:50

happen immediately. I think there's a tendency

32:52

to do this for a couple hours and

32:54

go, well, you know, I don't

32:56

feel any better, whereas really, this

32:59

is a process that we need

33:01

to keep doing it. It's part of the reason I started the show,

33:03

honestly, was to be reminded consistently

33:06

like that that thing that's carrying on all

33:08

the time in my head is not the truth

33:11

because left to my own devices, I

33:13

I identify pretty strongly with it. And so

33:16

you know, getting that sort of constant reminder

33:19

to like, okay, you know that's

33:21

not you take it, take a step back. Yes,

33:23

that is why I do groups and phone

33:26

counseling and retreats

33:28

and all of that, so we can gather together

33:30

and be real about it. And we

33:33

discovered that everybody else is doing

33:35

the same thing. It's just so wonderful.

33:38

So a really nifty thing

33:40

to add into our lives, you know,

33:43

is to become what I call a tightness

33:45

detective. That you

33:47

begin to realize you look out in nature

33:50

and you see that everything

33:52

flows in nature, you know,

33:54

water flows, light flows, day flows

33:56

into night, winter into spring, sap flows

33:59

for heaven, say, and you

34:01

begin to realize, if you're around a baby,

34:03

you see that everything flows

34:06

through it, you know, madness, sadness, gladness,

34:08

you know, and then you see us as adults.

34:11

There was a study done ones of children

34:13

that all of them were breathing their natural

34:15

breath like dogs and cats breathe the whole

34:17

trunk before they went

34:19

to preschool. Not one

34:22

was breathing their natural breath by the time

34:25

they went to first grade. So

34:28

we've all learned how to tighten. And

34:31

it's when we begin to use

34:33

this tightening as our bio feedback

34:36

mechanism that you begin to see

34:38

that any thought that

34:41

tightens you is

34:44

not the truth. It's from

34:46

the condition self. And

34:49

it's almost like we have to have that because

34:52

some of these spells are spells.

34:55

They are very strong.

34:57

I mean, you know, if I could break my own arm

35:00

through the spell of I am unlovable

35:02

and broken and bad and wrong, you

35:04

know, that's how strong they can be.

35:07

But you begin to see, you

35:09

begin to have these moments where

35:11

you relax back into life

35:14

and your belly let's go,

35:16

and you your chest begins

35:19

to open and you feel this aliveness

35:22

and you're just here. And

35:24

then somebody hanks their horn, you

35:27

know, and then you know, and then

35:29

you begin to notice, oh,

35:31

and that helps people immensely,

35:34

you know. And here's a thought in the middle of the night

35:36

and it's just you know, and all of a sudden awareness kicks

35:39

in and says, wow, I really think that

35:41

thought is true, but it makes me tight,

35:44

so it can't be the

35:46

truth. So I have the little statement.

35:48

If it makes you tight, it's

35:51

of the fight. One

36:21

of the things I really liked in the book that you did was

36:23

sort of very consistently

36:25

every couple of pages was was, you

36:28

know, an invitation to drop

36:30

back into the current moment

36:32

in a very concrete way. And I thought that was

36:34

really in addition to the practices

36:37

that you did at the end of the chapter, which are very

36:39

well structured. And I think what I like about it

36:41

is one of the things we talked on this show all the time about

36:44

is start really small. If you start

36:46

small with something, you can build into something

36:48

really great. But most of us start with you know, I'm

36:50

going to meditate an hour a day, and that's just doesn't

36:53

work. And so you're you're, you're,

36:55

you call them remembering practices build very

36:58

slowly from a very small which

37:00

is great, and and then just these very small

37:02

invitations, like I said, to come

37:05

back, and I find one of the things that helps

37:07

me more than just about anything. A lot of the time

37:09

is just to come back to recognize,

37:11

like what where am I and what's happening? Like

37:14

what do I see? What do I hear? What do I smell?

37:16

What do I feel? Just like it sounds

37:18

so simple, and it is so simple, but getting

37:21

in the habit of doing that, you

37:23

know, three times

37:25

a day, really makes at least

37:27

for me, makes a big difference. Yeah,

37:29

me too, because that's what we long for. I

37:32

love that quote by Alan

37:34

watts Uh, the very

37:38

beloved Zen philosopher. He

37:40

said, you know, no matter

37:43

how many times you say the word

37:45

water, it will never

37:48

be wet. And we long

37:51

you know, we we got this idea that enlightenment

37:53

was oh coming to this unending

37:56

state of orgasmic bliss, you know.

37:59

And really it's about

38:02

opening right here, right

38:05

now, everything we long for,

38:07

Everything we truly are is

38:09

right here, and we

38:12

long for it. But

38:14

we long for this version of

38:16

the now. Oh I want the now, but

38:19

the now includes loss,

38:23

death, pain, and

38:25

so much of this work is what's in the way is

38:28

the way that the more we begin

38:30

to become curious and we notice there's

38:32

something pretty spectacular we're missing,

38:35

you know, Yes, it it has suffering in it,

38:37

but you know, it's pretty wonderful, this thing

38:39

called life. And then we notice

38:41

how much we are away from it.

38:44

Then we begin to become fascinated

38:46

by what takes us away. We're

38:48

not trying to get to the now. I can't

38:51

tell you how many people have told me I don't do go

38:53

being in the now. Very well, well,

38:56

we can't be try

38:58

to be in the now. That's

39:00

our natural state. All

39:02

we need to do is learn how to see

39:05

with our attention all

39:08

of this conditioning that

39:10

we've taken on, and it's

39:13

just when

39:15

we step back from it,

39:17

it begins to become as ephemeral

39:20

as a cloud, and

39:22

you begin to understand that the light of

39:24

your attention is like the sun on

39:27

the morning fog. It literally

39:31

dissipates it. And then

39:34

here we are now. I

39:36

just watch the clip from

39:39

Andrea Levine, Stephen Levine's

39:43

wife, and Steven just died, you

39:45

know, a few months ago, and to

39:47

me, Stephen Levine is one of the most aware

39:50

hearts that we have on

39:52

this planet. And she

39:54

talks in this clip about that

39:57

they really have been able to, you

39:59

know, have a life where they really are

40:02

practicing all of this and

40:05

yet in the last couple of years in his life

40:08

it was challenging, of course. And

40:10

can we you know, Stephen

40:12

would say, die before you

40:15

die. Can we learn

40:17

how to be here not only for

40:19

the joys, but for the

40:22

headache, for the

40:25

heartache when the boyfriend doesn't

40:27

call, for the stomach

40:29

cramps, or for the

40:32

anxiousness at the light when it's taking

40:34

too long because now you're gonna be late to

40:36

work. Can we learn how

40:38

to be curious about these and

40:41

bring them spaciousness

40:43

so that when we die, and

40:46

it's true that all of us are going to have that,

40:49

and as we get older, this whole

40:51

system begins to break down.

40:54

Can we have that

40:57

breaking down and opening

41:00

into the next phase be

41:02

a process that enlivens

41:04

us rather than a process

41:07

that contracts us. Yep.

41:09

And that is the as you say,

41:11

the only game in town. And you know,

41:13

the reason that I sort of keep coming back

41:15

to these small

41:18

steps is that it is a path towards,

41:21

you know, of of going from complete

41:24

identification with

41:26

our brain to that spaciousness.

41:29

And I think I know I did, and

41:31

you know you talked about it with the meditation. You

41:33

know, I I finally started to get a daily

41:35

meditation practice, when I stopped

41:37

expecting anything to happen from it exactly,

41:40

you know, when I when I just finally

41:43

went oh, okay, I did it. And

41:45

I think that so many times, this idea

41:47

of being able to work with our thoughts, of

41:49

being able to get some distance, of being able to

41:51

see the storyteller, for me, is the

41:53

sort of thing that just

41:56

took a lot of reps.

41:59

And I'm not saying I mean I am in no way,

42:01

shape or form like done with that.

42:03

You know, it's it's still happens a

42:05

lot, and I still get entangled. But I

42:07

think it's so important when we talk about these things too,

42:10

to talk about that that this stuff

42:13

you do it over and over. It's not instant results.

42:15

It's not you know, it's not like taking

42:17

a drug, absolutely, and the ego

42:20

expects a drug. The ego wants a drug,

42:22

and that's not the path back

42:24

home again. And in my book

42:27

The Gift of Our Compulsions, I put the

42:30

uh when I self published it, before my publisher

42:32

picked it up, I put the story of the

42:35

tortoise and the hair in there three times,

42:37

and of course when they edited it they took it out all

42:39

except for once because it is

42:42

the plot, and that's not how the ego

42:44

works. The ego wants it results right

42:46

now. You know, Oh, you know, actually

42:49

tasting my morning coffee is going to make a

42:51

difference in my life, says the ego,

42:53

you know, and I say, yeah, it

42:56

is. And I've got a little uh analogy

42:58

that I used is drops of water in

43:01

a bucket and you look down and

43:04

the bucket is not even the

43:06

bottom isn't even covered, and you say,

43:08

oh, you know, I'm not going to do this anymore. But

43:10

if you keep on with it, you know, you look

43:12

down one day and oh my god, the buckets half full,

43:15

and then one day your foot is

43:17

wet. So it's just that

43:20

that it's it's not a

43:22

half to it says something

43:24

that begins to happen when you really

43:27

see there's a difference between this

43:31

story about life and actual

43:33

life. And the strange thing is we

43:35

really want this, but

43:38

we're also terrified of it because

43:41

the last time we were fully open, we

43:44

got scared. So

43:46

we need to be so kind

43:48

with ourselves and we need to, as

43:51

you are so beautifully saying, go

43:53

slowly. And we also need to

43:55

realize that most people

43:59

at this time on the planet still

44:02

go to their deathbed identified

44:06

with this condition. South and

44:09

a lot of people in power are

44:13

totally identified with it. But

44:15

there's more and more people. I'm working with engineers,

44:18

and I'm working with it just you know, it's really

44:21

exciting to see how

44:23

I'm working with people at Amazon and at

44:25

Microsoft. You know. There

44:28

this is beginning to uh

44:30

come into cebe into

44:33

the cracks in so many places.

44:36

And I think people want

44:38

to make a difference in the world, and

44:40

they don't realize that one

44:43

of the most powerful ways they

44:45

can help the healing of our

44:47

planet is to heal the

44:49

war inside

44:52

of them. So we're nearing the end

44:54

of our time. I want to visit one area

44:56

of the book that I found challenging

44:59

for me, like that that sort of I

45:01

went, I don't know about that, and

45:04

so I'm really curious about it

45:06

because it's an area that that I often

45:08

um, well, that just it raises

45:10

interesting questions for me. And you talk about the

45:13

fact that there is an underline

45:16

intelligence under everything,

45:18

which actually the way you describe

45:20

it made so much sense, like,

45:23

oh, of course there is, Like because I'm

45:25

this creature and you know, how did I

45:27

go from a single cell thing into this

45:29

creature. How did I how does my heart

45:31

beat? How does my digestion? That there's this that

45:34

there is this intelligence drive

45:36

in everything, and that there's this underline

45:39

beauty. And you talk about life

45:41

being for us, and

45:44

I'm good with the intelligent

45:47

peace up until there's

45:49

almost like a conscious design for

45:51

me that's out there.

45:53

Like I believe, like what you say that the what's

45:56

in the way is the way. I absolutely

45:58

believe it is those things. It is

46:00

the barriers and the challenges and the things

46:02

of our life that are the grist for the mill um.

46:05

But I'm curious about UM.

46:08

I guess I'm just curious what you think about you know what I'm

46:10

saying that there's a I have that challenge

46:12

with there being sort of a um like

46:15

that, for example, that my girlfriend breaks

46:17

up with me, because that's a way

46:20

for me to um experience

46:22

challenge in life that seems I

46:24

don't know, I I wrestle with that. So I'm just kind of curious.

46:26

I'm not even sure that's what you were saying, But I

46:28

just thought it'd be a fun thing to talk about. First

46:31

of all, I don't think any

46:33

of us know really what's

46:35

going on here, and

46:38

I think it is very

46:40

helpful to to

46:43

have a set of beliefs

46:47

understanding that we can never really

46:49

know if they're true, right, but

46:51

a set of beliefs that engage

46:53

you more with life rather

46:55

than cause you to struggle with life

46:58

if we don't know, we should choose stories that

47:00

give us power versus stories that take our

47:02

power away, exactly. And that

47:04

my experience is is the more that

47:07

I've come out of the clouds and

47:10

the more I see this spectacular

47:12

thing. I mean, I'm looking out this window

47:14

to this this magnolia

47:17

tree that I'm looking right over the top

47:19

of it, and it's all these bare twigs, and

47:21

it's just filled with these purple

47:24

and pink flowers. I

47:26

mean, and all of that was

47:29

made out of stardust.

47:33

And what is it that took

47:36

stardust and created

47:38

the DNA molecule. I don't

47:40

know what it is. I mean, I think we've given

47:42

it the name God, and we've created all sorts of religion

47:45

around it, which is really mostly

47:48

the human ego. But when

47:50

I quiet down, I see there is

47:53

an intelligence here. And

47:56

when I begin to realize that

47:58

this this came all in one fell

48:01

swoop. When I was writing the book that

48:03

life is set up to bring up what has been

48:05

bound up, so we can open

48:07

up to be freedom,

48:10

so we can show up for life. And when I

48:12

began to get out of

48:14

that idea that this is happening

48:16

because I did something wrong or

48:18

they did something wrong, or

48:21

God whatever God is, fell asleep on

48:23

the job, all of a sudden I

48:25

was not the victim anymore. Now

48:28

I am being fascinated. And

48:31

it just really uh

48:34

amazes me sometime to watch

48:37

how with myself and with people

48:40

that I work with, when you begin

48:42

to realize how much

48:44

this dance is for you. Now,

48:46

truth is always paradoxical,

48:49

you know. So you know, it's is

48:51

there a divine you know, thing

48:54

underneath it that has everything you know

48:56

set you know in stone? And well,

48:58

no, there's free will and

49:00

you know and all this, Well it's kind of like a

49:03

combination to both of them. And

49:05

what it is is you begin to be fascinated

49:09

by what is showing up, and you

49:11

know, whether it's my mind deciding, you know, oh

49:13

it's more peaceful if it sees this, or

49:16

you know, whatever. When

49:18

I begin to notice

49:21

what any particular situation brings

49:23

up inside of me, and

49:26

I begin to do what I call in the

49:28

book the you turn the y ou turn,

49:31

and you begin to notice

49:34

what is going on. You

49:37

begin to put the pieces of the puzzle

49:39

together. And the best way I can describe

49:41

it is I describe it sometimes like we're

49:44

in the wind tunnel. Great analogy,

49:46

Yes, picture

49:48

puzzle, you know, and everyone's around the wind tunnel.

49:50

You can just get it right, and you're just, oh,

49:52

man, I got this. Flying is wonderful. That

49:54

we're slammed against the wall, or clothes

49:57

are ripped off, and you know, a puzzle goes

49:59

into our I had and all that. And

50:01

what we're doing in this work is

50:04

we're stepping out and we're becoming

50:06

curious. And that's the place where life

50:08

is for you. And you just take a piece out

50:11

and when you look at it, you're

50:13

not the victim to it anymore. And then you put it down

50:15

on the table, and more and more that

50:17

puzzle begins to fill out, and

50:20

you see by

50:22

these situations that life is putting

50:24

you in that help you to

50:27

bring up what has been bound

50:29

up. You can see

50:31

it, you see through it,

50:34

and you're not hooked anymore, and you're not a victim

50:36

to anything. You're now more and more

50:39

fully engaged, and I'm like

50:41

you, I get hooked. And and Andrea shared

50:43

it so beautifully on the video. You know, you

50:46

know she said, we've done all this practice, and you know

50:49

it was challenging at times, but

50:51

she said, we

50:54

had this ability

50:57

to come back to the heart, which is our

50:59

main brand, back to this

51:02

which which is This

51:04

brain is dualistic, likes

51:06

this, it doesn't like that. I think this is good. That is bad,

51:08

this is right, that is wrong. Look at history. This

51:11

brain is engaged, it

51:14

is sensitive to what

51:17

is it. It is inclusive

51:19

rather than exclusive, and as far

51:22

as I can see, it's the only way to live. And

51:24

and by this brain, you meant your heart, heart

51:26

brain. Yes, it is a brain. We

51:28

found that out. Now it's a brain. Yeah.

51:30

There's a lot of great stuff in your book

51:33

about that topic. To um it. It

51:35

really is a wonderful, wonderful

51:38

book. Um I really enjoyed it. I

51:40

love what you just had to say there. I mean, for

51:42

me, I'm a I'm a member of twelve

51:44

step programs right where there's an idea if you

51:46

turn your life over to the care of

51:48

God. And I'm like, well, I don't know what that is, and what I finally

51:51

recognized for me was it didn't really

51:53

matter. It was that it was the letting

51:55

go of it, you know, taken out

51:57

of my clutched bad hands, that

52:00

I'm not sure what the mechanism is, but

52:02

everything works better when I do that, right.

52:05

It's like, you know, that's that seems

52:07

to be the evidence that I can

52:09

see, is like me, letting go works.

52:12

And so you just imagine, you know, you're you're at

52:14

your family, you know, for Easter

52:17

or whatever, and you know, Uncle Bobby

52:19

is having a an argument

52:21

with Aunt Josephine, you know, or

52:23

something like that, and and somebody else's

52:26

doing something else, and you can just feel yourself tightening,

52:29

and then you go, no, wait, life

52:31

is for me that there's something here for

52:34

me to see all of a sudden.

52:36

It's not happening to you all

52:38

of a sudden. You are engaged with

52:40

it. And my experience is every single

52:42

experience has something to show

52:44

you, not only about this condition

52:47

self, but also about how

52:49

it is safe to open and

52:51

engage with life. And

52:54

then life becomes an adventure. And

52:56

that's what we long for, you know, when

52:58

we buy the fancy are or have the

53:00

LiPo section or whatever, what

53:03

we really really long

53:05

for is to be here.

53:07

I couldn't agree more. Well, Mary, thank

53:10

you so much. This has been a very

53:12

fun conversation. Like I said, I really

53:14

enjoyed the book. I got an email today

53:17

from um, your publisher, who

53:19

said, really, I mean

53:21

I rarely see gushing like

53:23

that over a book, and so it was very

53:26

It's a special one. So thank you, thank

53:28

you, thank you. It's my joy.

53:46

You can learn more about Mary O'Malley and

53:48

this podcast at one youth feed

53:50

dot net, slash Mary