0:00

You're probably already

0:02

aware of Kast' new true

0:04

crime investigative podcast lost

0:07

in Panama. But if you haven't caught up,

0:09

New evidence and testimony has recently

0:11

been uncovered in the most recent episodes.

0:14

It is shining new light on this case.

0:16

The first four episodes of the series

0:18

set up the foundation of what is

0:20

known about this Kast,

0:22

including a deep dive into the suspicious

0:25

tour guide the mysterious photos

0:27

and the remains. But episode five

0:30

launches a whole new direction of investigation

0:32

into this case. A woman

0:34

connected to the confirmed homicide

0:36

of her own son tells us that

0:39

she knows the same man responsible

0:41

for her son's death are also

0:43

responsible for Chris and Lisanne's deaths.

0:46

Not only that, but she presents to our team

0:48

a full detailed story of exactly

0:50

what happened. How the women

0:52

were abducted and killed. And somehow,

0:55

it all adds up. All the pieces

0:57

start to fit together. Or at least

0:59

start to make more sense. As time begins

1:01

to run out on the investigation, but with

1:03

this major breakthrough in hand,

1:06

the team in Panama must attempt to

1:08

assemble a compelling enough theory

1:10

of the case in order to push

1:12

the Panamanian government to admit that

1:14

there's more going on here than

1:16

meets the eye. We need them to

1:18

reopen this Kast, so that a much

1:20

closer look can be taken at all

1:22

the new evidence coming to light, and the

1:24

families affected can finally find

1:26

some closure all these years later. Will

1:28

they do it? Listen to all episodes

1:31

of Lost and Panama, available now

1:33

wherever you get your podcasts. This

1:35

episode contains disturbing content,

1:37

including mentions of cancer, death,

1:40

alcoholism, bodily harm,

1:42

and medical fraud. Please take

1:44

care of all listening. Sometimes

1:53

life throws you a curve ball. Or

1:56

many curve balls all at the same time

1:58

and you get pummeled. In

2:00

two thousand eleven, that was happening to

2:02

Jackie. Jackie asked us not to

2:04

use her last

2:05

name. At the time,

2:07

she and her husband were raising two kids

2:10

in Saint Louis. My position

2:12

had just been eliminated at the company I'd worked

2:14

for for twelve years. And my husband

2:16

at the time was unemployed,

2:19

hadn't worked in a couple of years,

2:21

and I found out later that it was

2:23

because he was an alcoholic and

2:25

in denial of his condition. So

2:28

I had filed for divorce, and

2:31

I had an opportunity to

2:33

move to Wisconsin. Jackie

2:35

got a job in Jackson, Wisconsin, a

2:38

suburb of Milwaukee. It has

2:40

a population of around seven thousand people.

2:42

It's technically a village. The

2:45

village of Jackson. It's

2:47

an attractive location for young professionals

2:49

who work in Milwaukee, but want to

2:51

raise their children in a safe small

2:53

town close by. There are

2:56

movie nights in the park, village wide

2:58

rummage sales and art fairs,

3:00

festivals and parades. Their

3:02

website states, the village

3:04

holds the character of a small town with

3:06

the beauty of rural Wisconsin. So

3:09

we have all of the benefits of the big city.

3:12

But in this nice, safe,

3:14

tiny, little suburb that is

3:17

It's just it's been great for the family and

3:19

I. And then shortly

3:21

after Jackie bought her house in Jackson,

3:24

her soon to be ex husband unexpectedly

3:27

died. Now, she

3:29

was a single parent dealing with

3:31

grief, a high pressure job

3:34

and trying to help her kids adjust

3:36

to their new lives, all in

3:38

a place where she knew no one.

3:42

It was a lot. There was a lot going on.

3:44

And I just wanted to make sure I was doing everything

3:46

right for the kids. So they

3:48

needed a pediatrician and I have no one

3:50

to go to now to say, hey, what do you think

3:52

of this pediatrician or what do you think of this dentist?

3:55

I had to make the choices and I very

3:57

vividly remember thinking

4:00

it's so hard to make this choice and I have

4:02

no one to kind of run

4:04

the idea off of or say, hey,

4:06

gut check me here. What do you think about? This

4:08

person. There was none of

4:10

that. Jackie's mother

4:12

moved to Jackson to help her out, and they

4:14

started to do all of the things that you

4:16

have to do when you relocate. One

4:19

of those things is finding a dentist.

4:21

There were two in town and only

4:23

one of them took Jackie's insurance.

4:25

So that is how she ended up, a Jackson

4:28

family dentistry, seeing doctor

4:30

Scott And

4:32

at first, it seemed great. The

4:34

office was very Wisconsin, and

4:36

I mean that in the nicest way.

4:39

My immediate impression of Wisconsin

4:41

was there's something wrong

4:43

with these people. They are so incredibly nice

4:46

for no reason whatsoever.

4:49

Why are they so nice, and the

4:51

office was exactly that.

4:53

All of the hygienists CHARMOLI

4:56

himself, the women who

4:58

worked in the front office, 1

5:00

was just so incredibly nice.

5:04

Jackie was particularly impressed with how

5:07

doctor CHARMOLI interacted with her

5:09

children. I never wanted my

5:11

kids to be afraid of going to the dentist,

5:13

and he was very he made the

5:15

kids feel comfortable which was very, very important

5:17

to me. Jackie,

5:21

her two kids and her mother, all became

5:23

patients of doctor For

5:26

all of the upheaval and turmoil

5:28

that they had experienced, it was

5:30

nice to celebrate the winds, however

5:33

small all, like finding a great

5:35

dentist where her kids felt safe.

5:37

What Jackie could not have

5:39

known is that there was nothing safe about

5:42

doctor From

5:45

media, this is the opportunist.

5:49

This is doctor Scott CHARMOLI, Broken

5:51

Trust. A story told

5:53

in one episode. I'm

5:56

Hannah Smith.

6:08

Subscribe to Kast plus to

6:10

listen ad free with bonus episodes

6:12

at cast media dot comcast plus.

6:15

Follow rate and review the opportunist

6:17

on Apple Kast. You can

6:19

also listen ad free on Amazon

6:22

music. From

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it's Truly Criminal. Jackson

7:54

Family Dentistry is on Main Street,

7:56

within walking distance to two parks

7:59

and next door to a Lutheran Church.

8:01

Jackie said the office was

8:03

always busy, but in a

8:05

good way, like people kept coming

8:07

back. As a note,

8:09

Jackson Family Dentistry is still in Jackson

8:12

under new

8:12

ownership. But in two thousand

8:15

twelve, it was owned by doctor

8:17

Scott Charmsley. He was

8:19

very pleasant. He was

8:21

smiling, you know, he would he would come

8:23

in. And as he was coming in, the

8:25

room as as a patient is laying down,

8:27

he would come in and kinda put hand on

8:29

your shoulder reassuringly as he

8:31

walked around. He was a nice man.

8:33

He carried himself with confidence.

8:36

He was an older

8:38

man not bad

8:40

looking. He just carried himself very

8:42

tall and very knowledgeable.

8:46

Jackie's right, doctor CHARMOLI looks

8:48

competent and kind. Here's

8:50

a local commercial for Jackson

8:52

Family Dentistry that we found on

8:54

YouTube. Dr. CHARMOLI as

8:56

he does all sorts of density things

8:59

like talking to patients and

9:01

reviewing charts. is

9:03

clean-cut with salt and pepper hair. He

9:05

wears a long sleeve collared

9:07

shirt. Don't let your insurance company make

9:09

you feel like a number at a big box

9:11

dental office. Objective family

9:13

dentistry, you'll see me. Doctor

9:15

and you'll get to know my staff. We

9:18

are one team focused on you

9:20

and your dental health. The

9:23

village of Jackson was the fastest growing

9:25

community in Wisconsin at one

9:27

point in the nineties. There was a

9:29

new highway constructed that connected

9:31

Jackson to Milwaukee. And

9:34

suddenly, it was this dreamy suburb

9:36

destination for working families.

9:39

The population has almost tripled since

9:41

then. In two thousand

9:43

twelve, Jackson was rapidly

9:45

growing, and there was this sense of possibility

9:47

of economic prosperity,

9:50

and local businesses were soaking it

9:52

in. Jackson Family

9:54

Dentistry was one of them.

9:56

There

9:56

were always people in the waiting room, whether it was

9:58

an appointment early in the morning or

10:00

late at night. He had appointments, you

10:02

know, all day long, and it was

10:04

just always busy and he was the only

10:06

dentist in the practice. By

10:09

twenty fourteen, Jackie felt

10:11

more settled in Jackson. She was

10:13

thriving at her job. Her kids were

10:15

adjusting to their new home. Things

10:17

were finally starting to normalize.

10:20

Then Jackie received

10:22

a life changing phone call. In

10:25

December twenty fourteen, I

10:27

was diagnosed with breast cancer. So it

10:30

was actually the day after Christmas. It is the

10:32

world's worst Christmas gift to

10:34

get that call saying that biopsy

10:36

came back in its cancer. And

10:39

that started this whole breast

10:41

cancer journey then through

10:43

the most of the next eighteen months.

10:45

Jackie underwent extensive cancer treatment

10:48

including chemotherapy, a surgery,

10:50

and radiation. And

10:52

while she battled cancer, she was

10:54

told not to go to the dentist.

10:56

My cancer team was like, don't

10:59

do any procedures outside

11:01

of

11:02

anything that could be invasive. So even like a

11:04

cleaning where things could be

11:06

introduced into the bloodstream, don't

11:08

do anything, you don't need it, you're fine,

11:11

you're healthy. And I was. I was

11:14

completely fine other than this cancer

11:16

diagnosis. So it was about

11:18

a year, maybe a year and a half that I didn't

11:20

go to the dentist. Jackie

11:22

still made regular trips to Jackson Family

11:24

Dentistry for her kids. They

11:26

went in for cleanings and

11:28

checkups, they saw me. I had,

11:30

you know, I was bald. I

11:32

had no eyebrows, no eyelashes. It

11:34

was very obvious that I

11:36

was sick. So they

11:38

knew that I was going through cancer treatments

11:40

and they would ask about me and

11:42

ask how I was doing eighteen

11:45

months after her diagnosis in the

11:47

fall of twenty fifteen, Jackie

11:49

went into remission. She resumed

11:52

her normal life. Picking back

11:54

up the things that she had put on hold.

11:56

And on that list was a teeth

11:57

cleaning. She scheduled an appointment to

12:00

see doctor in October of

12:02

twenty fifth eighteen.

12:03

The very first time I went back to

12:05

the dentist after going through this

12:08

cancer journey through most of twenty fifteen,

12:11

was the first time CHARMOLI said,

12:13

there's a problem. He

12:16

said, you're starting to show

12:18

signs of periodontal disease.

12:20

And you need a crown.

12:22

And when he said that to you,

12:24

how did that feel? I was

12:27

surprised, but I was also worry

12:29

because I had never in my adult

12:31

life gone more than six months without going to

12:33

the dentist. So I thought, here's

12:35

a man who is a medical professional.

12:38

He knows what he's talking about. I have seen him

12:40

for years. I had never had a

12:42

problem with my teeth other than

12:44

childhood cavities. And I have a

12:46

congenitally missing tooth, so I have a

12:48

bridge. Other than that, I have

12:50

never ever had a problem with

12:52

my teeth or my mouth. It's

12:55

important to note that some cancer

12:57

treatments like chemotherapy and

12:59

radiation can possibly increase

13:01

a person's risk of developing cavities

13:04

or gum decay. And Jackie

13:06

had just gone eighteen months

13:08

without seeing the dentist. So she just

13:10

figured that This was the result of that

13:12

time away that some issues had

13:14

developed with her teeth and gum

13:16

health. A

13:18

lot of people are afraid of the dentist.

13:20

In fact, a survey done by the

13:22

market research company, Dentevox,

13:24

in twenty eighteen, found that sixty

13:26

percent of the people they surveyed said they

13:28

were afraid of the dentist. The

13:30

dentist is particularly scary

13:32

because The work happens in your

13:34

mouth, in your head. It's

13:37

invasive and personal. Most

13:39

people are afraid of potential

13:40

pain, but Some are also

13:43

afraid of the sound of the drill in their

13:45

mouth. But not

13:47

Jackie. Jackie always

13:49

felt totally fine going to the

13:51

dentist. She wasn't bothered by it. And

13:53

especially now, coming out of

13:55

this battle with cancer, she was

13:57

vigilant about her health. And she

13:59

felt trusting and grateful for medical

14:01

professionals. Because I had just

14:03

spent a year,

14:05

almost a year, literally with

14:07

my life in the hands of cancer

14:10

doctors. And I trusted

14:12

them with everything.

14:15

And their treatment plans

14:17

and I just then they got me

14:19

through it and I'm cancer free

14:21

today. And so

14:23

going CHARMOLI, being a

14:25

medical professional and just coming off of that,

14:27

I was like, obviously, there must be these problems

14:29

with my

14:29

mouth. I just don't even know it.

14:33

A crown is used

14:35

to repair a tooth. It requires

14:38

that the damaged tooth be

14:40

drilled down and then a permanent

14:42

cap is placed. On top of the

14:44

tooth. Doctors CHARMOLI

14:46

told Jackie that if she didn't have the

14:48

crown

14:48

procedure, her tooth might break, which

14:50

would be incredibly painful.

14:52

His conversation with me was

14:54

this crowd needs to be done right away.

14:56

All of these procedures need to be done

14:58

right away, right now.

15:01

Jackie told me that she had caught her

15:03

breast cancer early before it

15:05

had progressed too much, and she

15:07

feels so fortunate for that. If

15:10

doctor saw a problem with her

15:12

teeth, she wanted to take that same

15:14

approach to solve the problem before

15:16

it got worse. But it was

15:18

definitely a shock to find out that she needed so

15:20

much dental work. And the bill

15:22

was a shock as well. Only about

15:24

half the work she needed done was covered

15:26

by insurance. Jackie had

15:28

her treatment plan in front of her when we

15:30

spoke, so I asked her to read

15:32

part of it to me. Laser treatment,

15:34

not covered by insurance. Two

15:37

hundred and twenty five dollars times two

15:39

equals four hundred and fifty dollars.

15:42

Partial scale slash

15:44

root plane patient pays a hundred

15:46

and twenty five. Crown number

15:48

fourteen, patient pays

15:50

four hundred and forty two dollars and fifty cents.

15:52

And how much did you have to pay out of

15:55

pocket that visit for all those

15:57

things? So

15:57

out of pocket that came

16:00

to over a thousand dollars.

16:01

This was a big unexpected

16:04

bill. But Jackie made it

16:06

work. She booked the crown appointment

16:08

for the next week that was November

16:10

second twenty fifteen. The

16:13

process of getting a crown is not a

16:15

one and done procedure. First,

16:17

you've got to get a temporary crown,

16:19

then you have to go back for the permanent

16:21

crown even though permanent

16:23

crowns only last at best up

16:25

to fifteen years. Jackie

16:27

also received treatments for what doctor

16:30

said were signs of periodontal

16:32

disease. I needed root

16:34

plain or partial scaling

16:37

where they go down below the gum

16:39

line and clean the tooth root

16:42

incredibly painful. He

16:44

ordered laser treatments for my gums.

16:47

He lasered part of my gums off

16:49

saying that they were starting to show a lot of

16:51

disease. But these appointments

16:53

were just the beginning. He

16:55

said because of the start of periodontal

16:56

disease, I needed cleanings every

16:59

three months. So three months

17:01

later, Jackie went back to doctor CHARMOLI in

17:03

early twenty sixteen. He

17:05

assessed that I needed another crown.

17:09

And in February, said

17:11

you need to have this

17:13

crown right

17:15

now. And started that

17:17

day putting the crown in. Jackie

17:19

had to figure out yet again how

17:21

she was gonna pay for this sudden expense

17:24

throwing down hundreds of dollars for the out

17:26

of pocket costs. Someone

17:28

would come in with the paperwork saying, and here's

17:30

what you owe. We've already done the work for

17:33

you. Here's what the insurance is gonna pay, and here's what

17:35

you need to pay. So how do you wanna pay for that?

17:37

So there wasn't even time

17:39

to think about it. It was no. We can do

17:41

this. We can fit you in right now. We can

17:43

start this procedure right now. And

17:47

of course, you're thinking, I

17:49

don't want the brake, that

17:51

sounds horrible. Sure. Go

17:53

ahead. Let's let's get it fixed. If you have

17:55

time right now, let's let's do

17:57

it. Jackie got her second

17:59

crown on February tenth

18:01

twenty sixteen. And when she

18:03

went in for this procedure, She

18:05

noticed something different in

18:07

Charmsley's process.

18:08

He had

18:09

a new tool, and he

18:11

started, he numbed me, and he

18:14

started drilling.

18:14

And then he stopped and he

18:16

put this device in my mouth. It almost looked

18:18

like a pet. And I

18:21

remember asking him, what what are you doing?

18:23

What is this penn that you're putting in my mouth. I've

18:25

never seen it. And he said, oh, this is a

18:27

camera that takes pictures of your teeth.

18:29

We have to log

18:31

everything for insurance.

18:33

Then three months later, in June of

18:35

twenty sixteen, Jackie went back to the

18:37

dentist again. And again, doctor

18:40

Charmsley had bad news. He

18:42

told her that yet another one of her teeth needed

18:44

a crown. So same thing,

18:46

you know, we're just kind of looking at these teeth

18:48

and we're seeing the same thing.

18:50

This has to be done right

18:51

now. For so

18:53

for the most part, for most of your

18:55

life, you haven't had dental problems, and

18:57

now it just It's like the the

19:00

problems are stacking up. Every time you go

19:02

back, you need another crown.

19:04

So, you know, when you told

19:05

you, yet again, you need

19:08

another crown, how did that feel?

19:10

It didn't feel great. I

19:12

had thought I had kept up on

19:14

my dental care. I wasn't

19:17

experiencing any pain.

19:19

I didn't have any sensitivity in my

19:21

teeth, and so it was a little

19:24

shocking that I would need any

19:26

crowns, there's obviously something

19:28

happening in my mouth that I can't

19:29

see. I must need

19:32

this crown. I think it's important to

19:34

remember that Jackie knew

19:36

what it felt like to have

19:38

disease creep into her body and

19:40

threaten her life. She had put

19:42

one hundred percent of her trust in her

19:44

cancer doctors, and they saved

19:46

her life. They gave her

19:48

the most precious gift more

19:50

time on earth, more time

19:52

with her family. This is no

19:54

small thing. And so,

19:57

Jackie trusted doctors.

19:59

And she trusted doctor without

20:02

question. When he said, there

20:04

is an urgent problem she

20:07

believed And how did he deliver that news to

20:08

you? Every time he delivered

20:11

the news, it was looking at your teeth,

20:13

looking at the films, you need

20:15

a crown. And if you don't get

20:17

this, something that is going to

20:19

happen. Your tooth is going to break,

20:21

and you don't want that to happen.

20:23

Every time it was, it's a

20:25

problem. It's going to get worse. If you

20:27

don't take care of this

20:28

now, you are going to have

20:31

really really bad problems.

20:33

Especially in

20:33

these early crowns, he it

20:37

wasn't a threat that

20:40

came later. Jackie

20:42

didn't have a reason to doubt doctor

20:44

CHARMOLI, but soon that

20:47

would change.

20:59

Subscribe to

21:04

Kast plus to listen ad free

21:06

with bonus episodes at cast media dot

21:09

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21:11

can follow rate and review the

21:13

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0PP Doctor

25:30

Charmsley wanted Jackie to get her teeth cleaned

25:33

every three months. And every

25:35

time she had gone back for that three

25:37

month cleaning, she had

25:39

been told that she needed a crown on

25:41

another tooth. And

25:43

while Jackie still trusted doctor

25:46

In mid twenty sixteen, she made

25:48

the first decision that later

25:50

she realized probably saved her

25:52

significant

25:52

pain. She switched back to seeing doctor

25:55

Charmsley every six months,

25:57

being an only parent

25:59

and raising two young kids

26:02

who are now involved in different activities.

26:04

I had a very demanding job.

26:06

I had left the first job that

26:08

I came to Wisconsin for and was

26:11

now teaching. And had a lot of

26:13

responsibilities there. And

26:15

I just didn't have time to come every

26:17

three

26:17

months. Going to the dentist every three

26:20

months, which inevitably turned

26:22

into two to three additional

26:24

visits to get a crown, it

26:26

all just became too much for Jackie's

26:29

schedule. The next time she went

26:31

back to Charmsley, it was

26:33

January of twenty seventeen, and this

26:35

time was no different than the

26:37

previous appointments. Dr. Charmsley said

26:39

that once again, Jackie

26:41

needed a crown, her fourth,

26:43

to be

26:43

exact. But there had been so many before

26:46

she was losing count.

26:48

I'm not a dentist. I'm not a medical

26:51

professional. I don't know what's

26:53

happening. I know how my mouth feels. I

26:55

know what I do to maintain the care of my teeth

26:58

in my mouth, but I don't know

27:00

what's happening in there. That's why we go to

27:02

the dentist. How much are you paying

27:04

every time that you go in for something

27:06

like this? It depended on

27:08

where I was with my deductible for

27:10

insurance. Sometimes it was

27:12

the full price, which could have been

27:14

up to twelve hundred to fourteen

27:16

hundred dollars. And sometimes it was a fraction of

27:18

that, so maybe four or five hundred dollars.

27:20

It just really kind of depended on where I

27:22

was in the year. Jackie

27:24

was doing well at her

27:26

job. She had a stable income.

27:28

But even so, these bills were a

27:30

source of stress. When you

27:32

start dealing

27:33

in a thousand dollars

27:36

or more, that isn't something that

27:38

you're necessarily prepared for when you go to

27:40

the dentist. So there were times that I was

27:42

like, you know what? I can't do that

27:44

today. So bill me

27:46

or next time I come in, I'll pay it, or can I,

27:48

you know, kind of chunk this out

27:50

and pay this over the next couple of

27:52

months sort of thing? Of course, they

27:55

always encourage that you pay right then upfront

27:58

instead of billing

27:59

later. And they would

28:02

really kind of encourage that. You

28:04

know, let's Let's get this paid today

28:06

or

28:06

that sort of thing. Charmin only

28:09

always made it seem like the crowns

28:11

were an emergency. And

28:13

encouraged Jackie to get the treatment done right away. Her

28:16

main concern was to keep

28:18

herself healthy, and

28:21

so Jackie got a

28:23

fourth crown. Of course,

28:25

let's take care of this. Let's do this. Let's

28:27

I've been through this procedure before. It

28:29

was all the same. The pen camera,

28:31

went in, same procedure with coming

28:33

in, you know, you need this right now, here's how

28:35

much you owe, here's how much the

28:37

insurance will pay. At this point,

28:40

did you, you know, ask

28:42

him something like, is

28:44

this normal? Like, why am

28:46

I having to get so

28:48

many crowns? You ever have a conversation

28:50

like that? I didn't. I thought,

28:52

okay, he's seeing something in my

28:54

mouth that I don't know, that I

28:56

can't see. So

28:58

I must need this. For the

29:00

first time in her life, Jackie

29:02

became anxious about going to

29:05

the dentist. Specifically about going

29:07

back to CHARMOLI. But

29:09

the other dentist in Jackson didn't

29:11

accept her insurance, and the next dentist

29:13

was at least two towns over. Not

29:15

exactly convenient. At

29:17

the end of seventeen, I

29:20

dreaded going back. And

29:22

when she did go back, it was the same story.

29:26

Charmsley told Jackie that she needed

29:28

another crown. This would be

29:30

her fifth He did that

29:32

fifth crown in October

29:34

seventeen. And on that

29:36

fifth crown, he said, you know, there's another one that

29:38

needs be done, so we should really get that one

29:41

scheduled. Jackie realized

29:43

that every time she had gone in to

29:45

see doctor Charmsley over the past couple

29:47

of years, Every single time,

29:50

he told her she needed another

29:52

crown. As doctor was

29:54

working on her fifth crown, he

29:56

urged her to schedule an appointment for yet

29:59

another crown. But this

30:01

time, Jackie reacted differently. For

30:03

the first time ever, she pushed

30:06

back. She had had enough. After

30:08

that fifth crown, I said, we're just gonna wait

30:10

and see what happens. And

30:13

he did not like that response.

30:15

He tore off his gloves

30:17

and threw them down. And he was

30:19

like, it's gonna break. And then you're going to

30:21

have an emergency and that's gonna

30:23

cost more. And I don't know. We'll try to

30:25

fit you in if it breaks, but I don't know.

30:29

Something had changed for

30:30

Jackie. She wasn't going to take word

30:33

for it anymore.

30:34

I kind of got

30:37

a little cocky when he did that, and I remember

30:40

smiling and looking at him going, okay, we'll

30:42

see what happens. And because

30:47

I just at that point

30:49

realized I don't

30:51

have a problem with the toothache telling me I have a problem

30:53

with. Nothing hurts. There's no

30:56

sign of anything happening

30:58

with these teeth. So,

31:01

no. We're going to not do

31:03

this anymore. Charmsley

31:05

was not happy when Jackie

31:07

refused to schedule the next Crown appointments

31:10

meant. In fact, his office continued

31:12

to call her and try to get her to schedule

31:14

it. But Jackie was in a

31:16

very different place mentally than

31:18

she had been when she got that first

31:20

crown in twenty fifteen. You

31:23

know, being widowed for a

31:25

few years and then going through

31:27

cancer treatments and my kids are very, very

31:29

young and I don't

31:31

know what's going to happen and I'm kind of

31:33

worried about everything. To twenty

31:36

seventeen where I'm remarried and our

31:38

families blended beautifully

31:40

together and I'm in this new job that I

31:42

love and I have this level of

31:44

jobs security now.

31:46

I just wasn't the same person I

31:48

was in twenty fifteen when

31:50

all of this I was

31:52

stronger. I was more myself. I was

31:55

not as vulnerable.

31:57

Two years before, Jack

32:00

had been trying to hold her family in

32:02

quite literally her life together.

32:04

Now she had gained her

32:06

health and her confidence back

32:09

something inside of her said that doctor

32:11

CHARMOLI was

32:11

wrong. Not only that, but

32:14

she had already spent over five

32:16

thousand dollars out of pocket. For

32:18

all of these procedures. Jackie decided

32:20

to look for a new dentist for

32:22

her family. She had lost trust

32:24

in doctor CHARMOLI. She didn't think

32:26

too much more about doctor Charmsley

32:29

until one day in

32:31

twenty twenty.

32:33

So I was making dinner in

32:36

December twenty twenty. So I was in the

32:38

kitchen, TV on in the living room to the

32:40

local news. And a story came

32:42

on. And I heard something about a local

32:44

dentist being investigated for

32:46

fraud. And stopped

32:48

what I was doing, sat

32:50

down, watched the story, and

32:52

just started googling what is

32:54

going on. The indictment accuses

32:56

CHARMOLI performing an unusual amount

32:58

of crown replacements in one twenty

33:00

month period sixteen hundred procedures.

33:03

Totaled more than two million dollars in claims.

33:05

What was that moment like for you?

33:07

What were you feeling? What were

33:10

you thinking? Holy shit.

33:12

I know. I did not need

33:14

these crowns. How many did

33:16

he put in? I didn't even know the

33:19

number at that I knew it was a

33:21

lot, but I wasn't keeping track.

33:23

I knew that I for sure didn't need

33:25

the one that he had recommended.

33:28

So all of this going on as

33:30

dinner is now burning in the kitchen

33:32

because I'm

33:32

like, nope, forget dinner. Jackie

33:35

found a press release from the US

33:37

attorney's office from December

33:39

sixteenth twenty twenty that stated that

33:41

doctor Scott CHARMOLI sixty

33:43

was indicted by a federal grand

33:46

jury for a health care fraud scheme. faced

33:48

multiple charges of health care fraud

33:50

and false statements relating to health

33:53

care matters. It alleged that

33:55

Charmsley's fraud began at the beginning of

33:57

twenty sixteen. Jackie

33:59

just knew she was one of his them.

34:01

She immediately sent an email to the US

34:03

attorney's office explaining who she

34:06

was.

34:06

I know I did not meet these crowds.

34:10

And I wanna know what to do

34:12

now. What do you need for me?

34:14

How can I help you? And in

34:16

a couple of days, I was talking

34:18

to the US attorney's office and I was talking

34:20

to the FBI as well.

34:24

Within days of seeing the news about

34:26

Charmsley's indictment, Jackie hopped on a

34:28

conference call with US

34:30

attorneys and the FBI. She told them

34:32

everything that had happened to her.

34:34

They were revealed that Jackie was

34:36

one of the many victims of doctor

34:37

Charmsley. Other patients had come forward with

34:39

yearly similar stories.

34:42

It was it was good to tell my story

34:45

and to hear from them that

34:47

this is the same MO that

34:49

they've heard from others. That

34:52

they went in with no problems.

34:54

They found out they needed this

34:56

immediate procedure. The pen camera

34:58

was real familiar to them. They

35:01

knew exactly what I was talking

35:03

about. The process normally used for

35:05

crown procedures, including the use of

35:08

that pen

35:10

camera, was something the FBI was investigating. They

35:12

had been tipped off about doctor Charmsley

35:14

after he sold his practice in

35:18

twenty nineteen. Once the new owners of Jackson Family

35:20

Dentistry got access to the patient

35:22

files, they were alarmed by

35:24

how many crown procedures the office

35:26

was doing.

35:28

Additionally, several patients had been scheduled

35:30

for crowns by doctor Charmsley. By

35:32

the time they came in for the dental

35:36

work, The office had been sold, and the new dentist

35:38

was shocked to see that their teeth

35:40

were just fine. No

35:42

crown

35:43

was needed. I have since had

35:46

my documents, all of my files reviewed by a couple

35:48

of different dentists, including the new dentist

35:50

who bought Jackson Family Dentistry.

35:53

And they said while there were some signs of wear on

35:56

molars, most people have signs of wear

35:58

on your molars by the time

36:00

you're forty. A crown would have

36:02

been a very, very aggressive way to treat what they saw

36:04

based on previous films that were in

36:07

my file. After her conversation with US

36:10

attorneys, it hit Jackie just how

36:12

calculated doctor scheme

36:16

was. He was not the concerned doctor that he had made

36:18

himself out to be. Jackie

36:20

suddenly felt that she had

36:22

been targeted. Doctor

36:24

Charmsley had been fully aware that Jackie was going through

36:27

cancer treatments in twenty fifteen. He

36:29

had even asked her mother,

36:31

also a patient, how Jackie

36:33

was doing during those eighteen months that she

36:36

wasn't able to have a

36:38

cleaning. When she finally returned to the

36:40

dentist, it was the perfect opportunity

36:42

for doctor to claim that

36:44

her dental health had suffered during

36:47

those eighteen

36:48

months. Jackie says at that point in her life, she was exhausted

36:51

and vulnerable.

36:53

He completely took

36:55

advantage of me. Knowing I was at

36:57

the lowest point of my life, knowing that

37:00

emotionally and

37:00

mentally, I was tapped out

37:04

And that's when all of these problems started. I had no

37:07

problems before then. I've had no problems

37:09

since. He totally took advantage of

37:11

this snapshot of my

37:13

life. When I was just

37:16

more vulnerable

37:16

than I would have

37:17

been normally. Jackie claimed

37:20

that she spent over six thousand

37:23

dollars out of pocket for likely unnecessary

37:25

dental work. And then, of course,

37:28

Charmsley's office build her insurance on top

37:30

of that.

37:32

But how did doctor Charmsley get away with this over three

37:34

years? How did no one

37:36

realize what he was doing? Charmsley's

37:55

criminal trial took place in March of twenty twenty two.

37:57

During the trial, an

37:59

insurance executive test fight

38:01

that Wisconsin dentists installed fewer

38:04

than six crowns for every one hundred

38:06

patients in twenty nineteen. CHARMOLI

38:10

rate was over thirty two

38:12

per one hundred patients, that's over

38:14

five times more than

38:16

average, and that's just for twenty

38:18

nineteen. We're talking thousands and

38:20

thousands of crowns. In

38:22

order to charge patients insurance for

38:25

these crown procedures, doctor Charmsley

38:27

had to submit proof that

38:29

the teeth were damaged, and

38:32

so he created that proof

38:34

by breaking

38:36

patients' teeth.

38:36

The basic allegations are that he was purposefully

38:39

fracturing teeth of

38:41

patients and then submitting

38:44

false insurance claim forms to be paid for crowns that

38:46

were not necessary that were

38:48

the result of his fracturing

38:52

people's teeth. Tom

38:53

Ogerchok is Jackie's attorney in a

38:56

civil case against doctor

38:58

Charmsley, but Tom followed the criminal case as

39:00

well and attended

39:02

the trial. He told me that Charminally manipulated

39:04

the process used for

39:06

imaging teeth for

39:08

insurance claims. procedure

39:10

is to take x rays before any

39:12

dental work is done in order to

39:14

determine whether or not you need that

39:18

dental work. But

39:18

that is not what charmally did. They'd be

39:21

in the chair. He'd be

39:23

looking over the patient. And

39:26

then he would say, I think he need a crown. Let's

39:28

get some crown work done. He would numb the

39:30

patient after they were

39:32

numb. He would then start

39:36

to drill then stop to take

39:38

pictures. This means that

39:40

doctor Charmsley was drilling into

39:42

healthy teeth until they broke.

39:45

And then taking photos of the broken teeth

39:47

for insurance claims. Patients

39:50

didn't object to having their teeth

39:52

broken because they couldn't actually feel

39:54

what was going on. Their mouths had been numbed. That

39:57

small pen like camera that

39:59

doctor used, that

40:01

provided him discretion.

40:04

If he had called in, say, a dental hygienist to

40:06

take x rays in the middle of a crown procedure,

40:08

that would have set off a

40:11

lot of red flags. Instead,

40:14

he was able to discreetly snap photos

40:16

himself, and then he used those

40:18

photos for the insurance claims. As

40:21

a note, this pen like device

40:23

is actually a pretty common tool. A lot of dentists use this type of

40:25

intraoral camera in their practice.

40:27

CHARMOLI was just using

40:30

it unethically. Something

40:33

came to light during the trial that points to when

40:35

Charmsley started this scam

40:37

and why. In twenty fifteen,

40:39

Charmsley contracted a

40:42

consulting agency. He said his reason was to figure out

40:44

how he could make his practice run

40:47

more efficiently. His defense

40:49

team claimed that all

40:51

the consulting agency did was improve

40:54

operations at Charmsley's practice.

40:56

But the prosecution indicated

41:00

that this was a turning point for Charmsley. But this is

41:02

when he learned how he could make a

41:04

lot more money. The

41:06

prosecution argued that the

41:08

consulting agency pointed

41:10

out that specialized procedures like crowns

41:12

brought in more money. The timing

41:15

of this is interesting. Charmerly

41:17

hired the consultants in

41:20

January twenty fifteen. Jackie's first crown was

41:22

in October later that same

41:23

year. What sharply learned

41:26

by bringing in a consultant

41:30

was As a general dentist, if you're just doing

41:32

cleanings and fillings, things like

41:34

that, you're gonna have a limit to your

41:36

income. If you start

41:38

doing implants,

41:40

crowns, root canals, those types of

41:42

procedures, you're gonna see

41:44

an increase in your revenue. So

41:48

once he's once he

41:50

started to ramp up the number of

41:52

crowns that he did, his

41:54

revenue also skyrocketed.

41:56

And he went from making a real comfortable

41:58

living to a really,

42:00

really good income. Like

42:03

a lot of dentists,

42:05

Charmsley did well. Dentas salaries are often as high as a quarter of

42:07

a million dollars. Most people

42:10

told me that Charmsley wasn't

42:12

an extravagant spender,

42:14

although some patients joked

42:16

about how all those crowns

42:18

must be providing him with a

42:20

nice life. They would

42:22

joke around and say, well, I see he

42:24

normally has a new boat. And I

42:26

get how many crowns did you get today. I guess he had

42:28

to pay for his new boat. You know, they made

42:30

jokes like that because they did

42:32

find it unusual. Along

42:35

with his house in Jackson, Charmerley did

42:38

own a lake house and a property

42:40

in Arizona. In January of

42:42

twenty sixteen, CHARMOLI

42:44

the consulting agency to discuss

42:47

his progress He boasted that his business had increased

42:49

by sixty percent with a

42:51

total revenue of three point one

42:53

seven million dollars. This

42:55

was just before Jackie's second

42:58

crown. It was definitely a

43:00

point of emphasis of the US attorney that

43:02

once they brought in

43:04

that consultant, that type of work,

43:06

crown work started to increase and then is revenues

43:08

also filed and increased

43:11

quite a bit.

43:13

We attempted to get in touch with the consulting

43:15

agency multiple times, but no one got

43:17

back to us. During the

43:20

trial, US attorneys asked

43:22

doctor CHARMOLI if he

43:24

received a percentage of the money that came

43:26

in from specialty procedures

43:28

such as crowns. He

43:30

said yes. They also

43:32

revealed an escalation of

43:34

crown procedures in his

43:36

practice. In twenty fourteen, and

43:38

that's just from one insurance

43:40

company. So that doesn't even

43:42

include out of pocket costs for individual patients. The numbers

43:46

were staggering. And

43:48

what about his staff? The dental hygienists and

43:50

dental assistants helping sharply?

43:52

One staff member actually joked

43:54

about what the people in Jackson were

43:57

eating. so many crowns coming

44:00

in. But at the end of the day,

44:02

Charmsley was the dentist. He was the owner of the

44:04

business, their employer, and of course,

44:06

he was the doctor there

44:08

wasn't room to question

44:09

him. Some of his former

44:11

dental assistants raised some red

44:14

flags because this was going

44:16

along that this seemed like an

44:18

unusual way to proceed.

44:20

They were concerned about the number of crowns

44:22

that they were doing, but

44:24

it's a one dentist practice.

44:26

You're an assistant, you're a hygienist. It's I

44:29

can understand where some of

44:31

those people were hesitant

44:33

to speak

44:35

up too much. I'm sure

44:37

they felt intimidated. There were no charges

44:39

brought against Charmsley's staff. In

44:41

court, Charmsley denied

44:44

that he ever intentionally

44:46

harmed any of his patients or

44:48

that he broke their teeth on purpose

44:51

for financial gain. He

44:52

said he was just trying to take care of his patients in the best

44:54

way possible. He just wanted

44:56

to make sure that his clients got the

44:58

tooth covered, so they didn't have a lot of

45:01

out of pocket spenses. You know, painting

45:03

it somewhat as doing

45:06

them a favor. I

45:08

spoke with some other people who

45:10

were also present at the trial. They told me that

45:13

looked cool and confident, like, he didn't

45:15

think he'd done

45:18

anything wrong. My initial reaction from watching

45:20

him at trial was

45:23

and I think really to

45:25

this day, he denies that

45:29

this was a conspiracy that he did this

45:31

on purpose, that it

45:34

was just These

45:36

people needed crowns and this is the way he did it. Doctor

45:38

Scott Charmsley was found guilty. He

45:41

was convicted on five counts of

45:43

healthcare fraud and two counts of

45:45

making false statements related to patients'

45:48

health care matters. In

45:50

July of twenty twenty two,

45:52

Charmsley was sentenced to fifty four months

45:54

in prison. Just under four and

45:56

a half years, in order to pay

45:58

over a million dollars in

45:59

forfeiture. There is a civil case against

46:02

Charmsley that is currently ongoing

46:04

with over two thousand claimants, including

46:06

Jackie. Most likely, Jackie's

46:08

teeth were healthy. This

46:10

means that sharmily

46:12

intentionally broke her teeth to make it seem

46:14

as if she needed

46:15

crowns. The pictures

46:18

that were submitted

46:20

to the insurance. I know now

46:22

were not x rays. They

46:24

were pictures of my broken tooth

46:28

taken with that pen device

46:30

after he had already drilled part

46:32

of it out. To be clear,

46:34

Jackie's children were never harmed by doctor Charmsley. They only

46:36

ever had routine cleanings. And

46:38

as far as we know, doctor Charmsley

46:40

only victimized adults with

46:44

his scan. Jackie has to live with the

46:46

knowledge that she has five crowns in

46:48

her mouth that most likely

46:50

were unnecessary.

46:52

That sharply put her through pain

46:54

and discomfort and stress

46:56

for no reason. It feels

47:00

assault. I went into

47:02

his office with nothing wrong with

47:03

me. Nothing wrong

47:06

with me. And I

47:08

walked out five times

47:11

with crowns. I walked out

47:13

several times with a very

47:15

painful laser treatment. I walked out

47:17

several times with very painful

47:19

root planning, procedures that weren't

47:22

necessary. He did that

47:24

to me. He broke

47:28

body

47:28

parts, my teeth, my gums.

47:31

And why?

47:34

Why? Why? Why do

47:37

you think? I

47:39

don't know. Greed?

47:42

I don't know if he's

47:44

just a sick person who

47:46

gets off on causing

47:49

pain. I

47:50

don't know if he wanted the

47:53

money. You know, maybe this

47:55

started in twenty fifth teen.

47:58

Maybe I was one of the first victims and I

48:00

didn't say no.

48:02

And maybe that spirals. Kast

48:06

of the federal case involved

48:08

cases that were later, not

48:10

as early as twenty fifteen. So

48:13

maybe maybe it started

48:15

when he realized

48:18

he could. It's

48:20

never gonna be over for Jackie because crowns are

48:22

not permanent. At best, they last

48:24

up to fifteen

48:25

years. Eventually, they will have to

48:28

be

48:29

replaced. When I have to get these crowns replaced, that is

48:32

not going to be a good time for me. I'm going

48:34

to relive, not just

48:36

what he did to me, but all of the

48:38

vulnerabilities that went in

48:40

to getting there. All of

48:42

the worries around being

48:44

an only parent and a widowed

48:48

young woman and all of the concerns that I had

48:50

with cancer treatments all kind of

48:52

balled up

48:54

in now thinking

48:56

about having to get these redone.

48:59

Despite everything, Jackie says

49:02

she's not afraid to go to the

49:04

dentist. I have gone back to the dentist since

49:06

I'm not going to let

49:08

one bad apple spoil

49:12

the bunch. I do feel comfortable,

49:14

completely comfortable with my new dentist. They

49:16

know my history with

49:19

CHARMOLI and I

49:21

think they've handled it very very

49:24

well. If they don't know the history, they

49:26

say that's a lot of crowns for somebody

49:28

your age. Why do you have so

49:30

many crowds? And then as soon as I say it was

49:32

they're like, oh, and kind of

49:36

back off. The Civil trial against Scott is

49:38

now working its way through bankruptcy

49:40

court. His victims hope that the Civil

49:42

case will grant them a settlement to pay

49:45

the damage she caused. The

50:05

opportunist is a cast original podcast. It's produced by me,

50:07

Anna Smith, along with Pasha

50:09

Eaton, Natalie Gregory,

50:12

Tate May's and Sarah Douglas. Colin Thompson is our

50:15

executive producer. Anton Doty is our

50:17

editor. The show is mix and mastered

50:19

by Matt Sewell. Hypersonic

50:22

cover art is by Arvin Lee. The opportunist show

50:25

cover art is by Joel Hasmeyer. Our theme song

50:27

is Waltz for Zechariah from the

50:29

album show late. You can

50:31

find our merch at the opportunist

50:34

podcast dot com. Do you have a

50:36

suggestion for the show and opportunist you

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wanna hear us cover? Email us

50:40

at v opportunist at

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50:46

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