0:02

Welcome to the Partnership Economy. This

0:04

podcast explores the power of partnerships

0:06

through candid conversations with industry leaders.

0:09

Join our hosts, Dave Yovanno,

0:12

CEO and Todd Crawford, co-founder

0:14

of impact.com as they unpack

0:16

the future of partnerships as a lever

0:18

for scale and an opportunity to put

0:20

the consumer first. Welcome

0:23

back to the Partnership Economy podcast. This

0:26

is your host, Dave Yovanno, and I'm

0:28

delighted to introduce today's guest, Dan

0:30

Armstrong. Dan is the EVP

0:32

of distributed commerce at Ticketmaster, and has

0:34

been with the company for almost 10

0:36

years. He's an expert

0:39

on partnerships and e-commerce strategy, and

0:41

is driving real innovation in the

0:43

live ticketing industry. He's

0:45

also passionate about the importance of

0:47

storytelling and uncovering the common purpose

0:50

that keeps his team as well

0:52

as his partnerships aligned. In

0:55

today's episode, we discuss tips to

0:57

level up within an organization, how

0:59

to manage a diverse partnership program

1:02

from affiliates to B2B partners, and

1:04

where a thriving partnership program sits

1:06

within a company's wider marketing mix.

1:09

We also break down how the live

1:11

ticketing industry really works, something

1:13

a lot of people find confusing despite

1:15

the popularity of live events. I

1:18

definitely recommend staying tuned for this

1:20

highly informative episode. Hi,

1:23

everyone. Welcome to the Partnership Economy podcast.

1:25

I'm excited to welcome Dan Armstrong. He's

1:27

EVP of distributed commerce at Ticketmaster. So

1:29

welcome to the show, Dan. How are

1:31

you doing today? I'm great, Dave. Thanks

1:33

for having me. Awesome. Awesome.

1:35

I thought we could just kick off with

1:38

a high level in overview of

1:40

the music industry. Little Industry 101,

1:42

just explain a little bit about

1:44

the industry, and then specifically what

1:46

Ticketmaster does. Let's start with

1:48

Ticketmaster first of all. So obviously, we are

1:51

a ticketing provider, but what is that? We

1:54

provide technology and services that venues

1:56

need to manage and sell tickets

1:58

to their events. also

2:00

help market those events and ultimately get people into

2:02

the show. If you don't get into the show,

2:04

you're not having a satisfying experience. And that's what

2:07

we do at the end of the day. But

2:10

if you got to zoom out a

2:12

little bit and understand the live events

2:14

industry overall. And so you can really

2:16

break it down in a generalized way

2:18

to four major players. So

2:20

when you think about live events, it starts

2:22

with the content holder. So the content

2:24

holder is the person who puts on the show.

2:26

They are the artist. They are a sports team

2:28

with theatrical production. They work with

2:31

a promoter. That's the second entity. The promoter

2:33

is the group that's really putting up the

2:36

financial risk for that show. So

2:38

it's a very high risk, low margin

2:40

business. You hope that most of

2:42

your shows pan out, but ultimately they're trying.

2:44

They're taking a financial risk on

2:46

that event and trying to get enough people to

2:48

show up in order to make a profit. So

2:51

they then choose a venue. The venue

2:53

is obviously where the event is

2:55

held. The venue has a relationship

2:57

with a security provider. So

2:59

that's where we come in. And ultimately, the

3:02

central dynamic in all of this for

3:04

our industry is the laws of supply

3:06

and demand. It's a

3:08

very emotional industry because you've got the emotional

3:10

highs of going to a Super Bowl or

3:12

going to the concert that you want to

3:14

see. But also sometimes the emotional lows. Your

3:17

team loses. I'm a Milwaukee Bucks fan. They

3:19

just got knocked out of the playoffs. Or

3:21

you didn't get a ticket to that event

3:23

because at the end of the day, you're

3:25

dealing with something where 50 times

3:28

the number of people who can get tickets

3:30

want to get tickets. And so we

3:32

know that we're at the center of

3:35

that emotional dynamic. And so our role

3:37

is to be the technology provider and

3:39

the marketing arm and the facilitator.

3:42

And Ticketmaster really prides itself on providing

3:44

the best tools and services for those

3:47

clients. I was gonna ask, so

3:49

to be clear, there's many actors. And it

3:51

sounds like in this industry, could you maybe

3:53

just define who those key

3:55

actors are and then specifically what

3:58

type of actor is taking master so that

4:01

people understand that clearly. Yeah. So of

4:03

those four players, let's talk about how kind

4:05

of the economics of the industry works. So

4:07

you have the artist and the promoter and

4:10

the venue and the ticketing company. When you

4:12

buy a ticket, the price of that ticket

4:14

is really set by the artist and the

4:16

promoting team. They know their audience and they

4:19

know their own brand better than anyone. And

4:21

so they set the price of that ticket.

4:23

And they generally are receiving the

4:25

face value of that ticket. Then you

4:27

have the fees. The fees are set

4:30

by the venue and they're shared with the ticketing

4:32

company because we're all providing very

4:34

valuable services in order to put

4:36

on that event. Then you

4:39

have to manage the building, they have

4:41

security, they have staff, they're paying for

4:43

the lights. All of those things are

4:45

part of the venue and they recoup

4:47

those funds from those service fees. And

4:49

then we receive a portion of those

4:52

fees in order to do the ticketing,

4:54

market the events, all of the other

4:56

functions. So really, we are a technology

4:58

arm of the industry from that perspective.

5:01

Let's turn the conversation to you. You've been a

5:03

ticket master for almost a decade. So as

5:05

someone who's been at the company for

5:08

that long, and then what led up to your

5:10

role at ticket master, could you just maybe just

5:12

give us some highlights of your career? Because I

5:14

think our audience is always very interested in just

5:16

understanding how people like you got the position that

5:19

they're in within a company

5:21

like ticket master. It's shocking

5:23

to hear you characterize it as almost

5:25

a decade. But I

5:27

certainly didn't come from ticketing. And in fact,

5:30

when I came into technology, I worked in

5:32

what is now considered an antiquated

5:35

business of comparison shopping. So I

5:37

worked at one of the largest comparison

5:40

shopping engines, it's called Shopzilla, back in

5:42

the day before Google really destroyed that

5:44

whole industry. And that's where I learned

5:46

things like SEM and SEO and product

5:48

management. I helped build a fashion brand

5:51

that we launched. And I really did

5:53

it all. I ran

5:55

a business line of our, of what we

5:57

call our publisher network, which really was essentially

5:59

a glorious... certified affiliate program, so to speak.

6:01

And that's part of what brought me to

6:04

Ticketmaster. But even before that, I

6:06

had a unique path to where I am

6:08

now. So I actually used to live in

6:10

Los Angeles. I came to Los Angeles because

6:13

I was a film guy. I went to

6:15

film school. I worked

6:17

for production companies, worked on movies. And

6:19

ultimately, I was working really hard to

6:21

be a screenwriter for a long time.

6:23

And while that ultimately wasn't the life

6:25

path that I spent my whole adulthood

6:27

doing, what it really did teach me

6:29

is the importance of

6:31

storytelling. And that's something

6:33

that I really take with me every day

6:36

in my role and in my career because

6:38

I don't mean that in a salesy way

6:40

of storytelling. But what I mean is that

6:42

what interests me is finding a common

6:44

purpose and aligning with people, whether

6:47

it's internal people at your

6:49

company or with a client or with a

6:51

partner. And what is

6:53

the story that helps keep people on

6:55

the same page? And so that's what

6:57

really interested me about Ticketmaster is that

6:59

we are a part of

7:01

that storytelling process for the artist. You

7:04

are following an artist's career or you're following whether

7:06

or not your team makes it to the playoffs,

7:08

right? That's a story. And so we

7:10

can think about products in a similar way. And

7:13

so that's why I hold

7:16

on to each day with what we come

7:18

to work and do is all of these

7:20

partnership conversations that we have are really around

7:23

who is this for? What are we doing for? What's

7:25

unique about this partnership? And what is the

7:27

story within it? And that's really exciting. So

7:30

the common theme there I'm hearing is

7:32

a focus on the content creator, the

7:34

artist, a focus on the customer that

7:36

seems to be your true north throughout

7:39

your career. Any other pro tips for anyone

7:41

in our audience looking to level up within

7:43

their organization? So

7:45

when you're early on in your career, I think

7:47

that people should never shy away

7:50

from doing the unglamorous work. You have

7:52

to see what contributes to the organization

7:54

and how you can be a part

7:56

of that. So back when I started

7:59

at Shopsilla Spring. And I

8:01

lived in spreadsheets and keywords

8:03

and V lookups. And

8:06

in fact, I spent what felt

8:08

like days at time cleaning out keyword lists

8:10

long before we had the technology to do

8:12

it to make sure that we didn't inadvertently

8:15

market pornographic terms for instance. It's not something

8:17

that you went home and felt

8:19

that it was a glamorous day at

8:21

the office, but I knew that I was

8:23

contributing to the overall success of the business.

8:25

And that's really key in the early stages

8:27

of your career. Later in your career, I

8:29

think it's about really

8:31

demonstrating your ability to work

8:34

across an organization in a

8:36

cross-functional manner, whether it's

8:38

within your organization or outside of that,

8:40

right? And that means having a strategic

8:43

mindset as well and collaborating on

8:46

that strategy. Our organization,

8:48

like most, we have our OKRs

8:50

and KPIs. I'm a big believer

8:52

in those, but I'm also a

8:54

big believer in, regardless of what

8:56

your individual OKRs or KPIs

8:58

are, you have to think about what the

9:00

whole organization is driving towards and how you

9:02

can help, even if it's

9:04

not directly helping your business line, your

9:07

vertical. And that's something that our group

9:09

really focuses on a lot. Yeah,

9:11

I really appreciate the first point that you

9:13

made. It sounded like putting in, or paying

9:15

your dues rather, earlier in your career, not

9:17

being afraid to get your hands dirty. Back

9:20

to my comment about coming from Hollywood. I

9:22

spent a lot of time doing some really

9:24

unglamorous things, right? And maybe in the near

9:26

term, that didn't develop my career in the

9:28

way that I hoped or dreamed at that

9:31

moment. But what it did was create a

9:33

work ethic and a mindset where I was

9:35

willing to take on anything. And that really

9:37

helped accelerate my career when there are people

9:39

around you who know that, right? Yeah,

9:42

I agree. All right, so if we fast

9:44

forward to today, your EVP of

9:46

distributed commerce, what is that? And

9:49

what does that look like exactly? Yeah,

9:51

well, let's first start by defining what

9:53

we mean by distributed commerce. And so

9:55

really, distributed commerce is our mission

9:57

to help make it easy for fans to

10:00

it's no matter where they are. So we

10:02

want to be where people are spending their time

10:04

day in, day out. And we want to make

10:06

it organic to their experience. So

10:09

put that in a little bit more practical

10:11

terms or concrete terms. We

10:13

provide technology to surface event

10:15

metadata or content, as we

10:18

would call it, in other

10:20

third-party platforms, and also build

10:23

transactional capabilities to actually sell

10:25

tickets in other third-party ecommerce

10:27

experiences, right? So I

10:30

view our team and what I lead on

10:32

that team is really having three core tenants.

10:34

So one is about reach. The next

10:37

is about capabilities for our clients. And

10:39

third is really around the innovation. And

10:41

so those align with the verticals within

10:43

my group. So you could look at

10:45

reach as being associated with our affiliate

10:47

channel, so to speak. Our

10:50

capabilities are around the channels that

10:52

we distribute inventory through. And

10:55

really, we want to try to connect

10:57

our clients and the Ticketmaster brand to

10:59

this idea of innovation by working with best-in-class

11:01

partners and showing that we can do things

11:03

that very few other people in the industry

11:05

could do. And that

11:08

reach is so important in

11:10

what we do because live events are

11:12

so ubiquitous to our culture. So if

11:14

you're using one of your streaming services,

11:16

you probably encountered our content associated with

11:19

that or watching on a video service.

11:21

Or if you read a blog

11:23

dedicated to house music or a

11:26

local things-to-do website of what's going on in

11:28

your town this weekend, we want to be

11:30

in all of those places where you're spending

11:33

that time. So

11:35

that's really what we think about when we

11:37

think about our reach. But then when it

11:39

comes to... I refer to the fact that

11:42

we are a technology company and a technology

11:44

group. Really it's about

11:46

developing capabilities to sell in different

11:48

ecommerce channels. And why is

11:50

that important? So the truth is that most shows

11:53

don't sell out. A Beyonce or Billie Eilish, they

11:55

don't need a lot of help selling their tickets,

11:57

obviously. But if you're a mid-level

11:59

touring... act or a legacy concert

12:01

act, or if you have 82 games

12:04

or season or a long running theatrical show,

12:06

you're probably going to need some help to

12:08

sell some of those tickets. We

12:10

work to build partnerships and use

12:12

technology to activate those partnerships, where

12:14

you can reach different audiences that

12:16

may come to Ticketmaster or may

12:18

go to the artist

12:21

website or whatever their usual channels

12:23

are, right? So I'll use

12:25

a good example. One of our most important

12:27

distribution markets is Las Vegas. And

12:29

Las Vegas, people come to town and then

12:32

they figure out what to do. And there's a

12:34

variety of different ways that you

12:36

figure those things out. And it doesn't

12:38

necessarily mean coming to Ticketmaster. So as

12:40

a result, we make it possible to

12:42

buy our tickets through Spotlight Vegas or

12:44

a kiosk on the strip or vegas.com.

12:46

And so we want to be where

12:48

people are spending their time, in

12:51

most of those cases being online channels. So

12:54

Ticketmaster, it sounds like, has one

12:56

of the most diverse and mature

12:59

partnership strategies of any company that

13:01

I've spoken with. When we

13:03

hear the term partnerships, it can mean so

13:05

many different things to many different people. When

13:08

you talk about partnerships at Ticketmaster and you just

13:10

gave us a sense of it, how

13:12

would you describe that in general? How does

13:14

your company, how do you think about partnerships?

13:16

How does Ticketmaster think about it? Yeah,

13:18

it's a great question. And at its

13:20

highest level, our whole business is partnerships.

13:23

So you can almost... You

13:25

can start by saying our venue relationships,

13:27

those are our core clients. That's essentially

13:29

a partnership. We're partnering with them to

13:31

provide them services that can help them

13:33

be successful in their venues. Then

13:36

we have other B2B types of partnerships.

13:38

We have a program at Ticketmaster called

13:41

Nexus. And Nexus is

13:43

a program that aggregates companies that

13:46

provide B2B services for venues. So

13:48

think of access control to help

13:50

get you in a venue where

13:52

data services or mobile services, etc.

13:55

So that's another form of partnership. Then

13:58

there's our group, which is distribution... partnerships, obviously,

14:00

and our goal is to sell incremental

14:03

tickets for our clients and help find new

14:05

audiences. That's our mission. But

14:07

then if you zoom up even a level

14:09

above that, we are a part of Live

14:11

Nation. Live Nation is our parent company. They're

14:13

a very successful promoter. Their form

14:15

of partnerships is what I was

14:17

describing before in terms of connecting

14:20

brands to the live event. If

14:22

you are a beer or a live stream

14:24

partner, if you want to be close to

14:27

that live event, you work with the Live

14:29

Nation sponsorship team in a form of partnership.

14:31

And oftentimes, these things cross over each other.

14:33

So we work very closely with our sponsorship

14:35

team to try to amplify

14:38

the effects that we can have for a partnership.

14:40

So here's a great example. Just

14:42

recently, Live Nation announced a major

14:44

expansion of their partnership with Snap,

14:47

the social media platform with something

14:49

called Snap Nation. And that's an

14:51

attempt to have fans be able

14:53

to engage with artist content before

14:55

and after a show through the

14:57

Snap app, which is incredibly exciting.

15:00

It's a really cool, innovative partnership.

15:02

Meanwhile, our group, since I was

15:04

saying before, we want to be that foundation.

15:06

We want to have a foothold that's built

15:08

into the platforms. We worked with Snap last

15:10

year to embed our content

15:13

in the Snap map, which means that when

15:15

young people are using Snap, and

15:17

they're looking around where their friends are, they can see

15:19

that there's a venue and they can see that there's

15:21

an event taking place there. We

15:24

can collaborate with our sponsorship team

15:26

and the brand to bring different

15:28

forms of these partnerships to help

15:30

amplify the success for everyone. So

15:33

what I'm hearing is that what's important

15:35

to you is partnerships that can actually

15:37

help sell tickets. Is it that simple?

15:39

And if so, what are the main

15:42

types of partners, would you say,

15:44

that are significant or contributing

15:46

the most to sales? It's a great

15:48

question. And it depends on the types

15:50

of events. So what is good for

15:52

a concert may be different for sports,

15:54

for instance. And so there's not one

15:56

size fits all. But ultimately, our group

15:58

is trying to find the

16:00

largest audiences that we can. And so

16:02

that often takes us to the large

16:05

tech players. And that could be a

16:07

music streaming service. It could be a

16:09

music discovery app, for instance. It could

16:11

be a giant social media site. It

16:13

just depends on the type of content

16:15

that you're matching with those use cases.

16:17

So it is a little bit all

16:19

over the board. And most of those

16:21

really do translate into significant sales of

16:23

tickets at the end of the day.

16:25

On the e-commerce side, we've been very,

16:27

very successful in a lot of regional

16:29

plays. So for instance, I referred to

16:31

before what we do in Las Vegas. There

16:34

are certain local websites that are selling inventory,

16:36

whether you're seeing, you know, want to get

16:38

on the high roller in Las Vegas, or

16:40

go see a Penn and Teller show or

16:42

a Live Nation residency. All of

16:45

those are in one place. And we're powering that

16:47

through our APIs. And those have been very successful

16:49

for us over the years. So it just depends

16:51

on the type of content. But you

16:53

ask a really great question about

16:55

creators and influencers. And obviously,

16:58

it's really they become very central

17:00

to the marketing industry in general.

17:03

I think from a first principles standpoint,

17:06

the first thing to remember is that

17:08

ultimately, artists are

17:10

the ultimate influencers and creators, right?

17:12

So but that

17:15

being said, there is a very strong

17:17

use case for the broader Live Nation

17:19

Ticketmaster business for influencers. So particularly in

17:22

the form of creators, as I was

17:24

saying before, live events is such a

17:26

difficult to understand industry, people can often

17:28

be confused and frustrated because why can't

17:31

I get tickets or what happens when

17:33

I buy a ticket and why are

17:35

things priced this way, etc. And we

17:38

really actually look to use creators to

17:40

help with some of that education process

17:42

and brand building. So

17:44

because we find that fans are

17:46

able to really articulate this really

17:48

well for fans themselves. So

17:51

we are certainly not within my group of

17:53

distribution, but as a company, we are exploring

17:56

those kinds of strategies. And then at the

17:58

same time, we're also working with individuals influencers,

18:00

especially on the Live Nation side, especially when

18:03

it comes to festivals, let's

18:05

say, of using influencers to help

18:07

amplify the feeling and excitement of

18:09

being at those events. So

18:12

it may not be directly related to

18:14

selling tickets directly, but it's

18:17

about helping capture the

18:19

essence of that brand, whether you're at

18:21

EDC in Las Vegas or the Stagecoast

18:23

Festival or any of our other many

18:26

festivals, right? So there is definitely a

18:28

place that we work with

18:30

those influencers for our program when it

18:32

comes to our affiliate program and our

18:34

reach. We've been a little

18:36

bit less successful in finding the ways to

18:38

work with them because the artist is so

18:41

effective already. Yeah, that makes a lot of

18:43

sense. The artists themselves is probably the most

18:45

impactful influencer, right? To drive tickets, yeah. So

18:47

I get that. So maybe not

18:50

in that category, but is there an example of

18:52

a type of partnership that you think is worth

18:54

shining a spotlight on just to get a sense?

18:56

Yeah, 100%. I mean, there's

18:58

so many that I could choose from because

19:00

one of the things that we're really proud

19:03

of and we work really hard at is

19:05

to be first to market with so many

19:07

of these major platforms. So whether

19:09

it's Spotify, YouTube,

19:11

Meta, Amazon, Snap, TikTok,

19:14

you name it, these are all the platforms that people

19:16

are spending their time on. And

19:19

we are fortunate to have had the

19:21

opportunity to really build a lot of

19:23

firsts with them. So it

19:25

starts with that initial question of

19:27

how do we improve the user experiences

19:30

on their platform with our

19:32

content to create value for fans, the

19:34

platform itself and the content holders? Well,

19:36

that's kind of the first principle of

19:38

where we're starting. So

19:40

a good example of that is

19:43

how sometimes some of those products

19:45

can be initially seen as utilities,

19:47

and they're becoming more of a

19:49

platform for engagement. So I mentioned

19:51

SnapNaps before, another one in the

19:54

map category, we work closely

19:56

with Apple and Shazam on

19:59

integrating our content within the Apple

20:01

ecosystem. So now, for instance, you could

20:03

find, if you're in Los Angeles, you

20:05

could see how to

20:07

get to the Kia Forum in Los

20:09

Angeles. But you could also see that

20:11

there are events taking place there, what

20:13

those events are. And so the Apple

20:16

map has transitioned from a form of

20:18

pure utility into inspiration and engagement. Moreover,

20:21

that content can surface itself in other

20:23

places in the Apple ecosystem. It can

20:25

be on a Shazam artist page. So

20:27

you see that Blink-182 is playing at

20:30

the Kia Forum, you can go to

20:32

the Shazam artist page or even in

20:34

certain places in Apple Music and

20:37

find that content. So you're providing

20:39

an elevated experience for Apple users

20:41

at the same time as you're

20:43

helping the content holder and

20:45

the artist, which is really exciting. There

20:48

are many other partnerships that have been inspiring for

20:50

us. So another one that

20:52

I'll highlight is on the distribution side,

20:54

where we have worked really hard to

20:56

help facilitate the ability to give back

20:59

to specific user groups. So a good

21:01

example of that is we work with

21:03

a group called VETTICS, which

21:06

is a military veteran support group.

21:09

And event organizers donate tickets to

21:11

this organization called VETTICS, which then

21:13

get distributed out to military veterans

21:15

that they can attend shows for

21:18

free. And so what that does

21:20

is it, from the

21:23

perspective of the promoter or the venue,

21:25

it gets more people in the house,

21:27

more butts and seats, which means they're

21:29

buying more nachos and merch, and

21:31

those sorts of things. But more importantly, it's

21:33

really giving back to a community

21:35

that has given so much in service to

21:38

our country. And it's been a wildly successful

21:40

program. So just last year, our group

21:43

was responsible for distributing more than a

21:45

million tickets to military veterans. So you

21:48

asked me before about areas where we've

21:50

seen success. Our program touches

21:52

tens of millions of tickets, but it's pretty

21:54

exciting when you can step back and say

21:56

that we helped a million service members go

21:58

to shows for free. last year, which

22:00

is incredible. Again, I'm hearing

22:03

the focus on the customer experience as a

22:05

true north, the focus on how to

22:07

best serve the artist and sell more tickets.

22:09

It seems to be the common beam on

22:11

what is driving your strategy. And I have to

22:13

imagine that part of the creative

22:15

storytelling, like the background for not

22:17

just yourself, but the company, the

22:20

industry in general is driving some

22:22

of the innovation that your team is executing

22:25

on. Can you just give us a sense

22:27

of some tips on how you're managing such

22:29

a diverse program? Yeah, it certainly is a

22:31

unique challenge. And there can be times where

22:33

our product and development team can feel a

22:35

sense of whiplash because we have to go

22:37

in so many different directions because we have

22:39

so many different types of partners that we

22:42

work with, right? And

22:44

that can make our prioritization nimble as

22:46

we are opportunistic in what partners are

22:48

most relevant or important for us to

22:50

be working on at a given time.

22:53

And we also have a small team where

22:56

we're resource constrained just like everyone else

22:58

in technology. And so we have to

23:00

make choices and trade off. And

23:02

we also have to balance the fact

23:04

that it's not just about what we

23:07

want to do. It's about the alignment

23:09

with the partner and also their timelines,

23:11

right? So many of our partnerships can

23:14

take years to get to fruition,

23:16

whether it's around just the strategic

23:18

alignment or the business alignment and

23:20

then the product and dev alignment.

23:22

In order for us to manage

23:24

this, though, you asked, how do

23:26

we support that? It's

23:28

really important for us to have standardized

23:31

technology. So our technology

23:33

involves APIs and data feeds and

23:36

inventory APIs, etc., that are as

23:38

consistent as possible for no matter

23:41

what type of partner we end

23:43

up working with. So

23:45

we always have that ready on the partner side. And

23:48

for us on the ticket master side, we

23:50

work to do a lot of the hard

23:52

work to bring in more markets

23:55

into our program, more different types

23:57

of inventory, different ticketing systems. a

24:00

global company with more than 30 markets,

24:02

and they're not all on one ticketing

24:04

system. But if you want

24:06

to work with partners on a global scale,

24:08

we want to provide standardized technology and APIs

24:11

to the partner on the other side. So

24:13

we try to abstract all that complexity for

24:15

them, which is us getting into the muck

24:17

and the weeds of our own technologies that

24:20

we can make it seem worth an easy

24:22

for the partner side. And

24:24

that helps us scale, right? We work

24:26

with more than 1000 partners, and not

24:29

all of them are meaningful

24:31

in the sense of how many tickets they sell, etc.

24:34

Like I said before, the blog dedicated

24:36

to house music may not sell as

24:38

many tickets as major streaming service, right?

24:40

But we have this standardized technology that

24:42

can be available for people to use.

24:45

And we try to make it as easy as possible for everyone.

24:48

Got it. And if we zoom out and look at the company

24:50

as a whole, how do partnerships

24:52

factor into just the wider marketing

24:54

mix for Ticketmaster with regards to

24:57

customer acquisition for ticket sales? Yeah,

24:59

that's also a great question because

25:01

we view ourselves as part

25:04

of an ecosystem without question. And so

25:06

our goal is to be

25:08

that endemic product experience within these

25:11

partners that other marketing strategies and

25:13

programs can be layered on top

25:15

of. So let me

25:17

give you an example of that. So for years,

25:20

we've had a very successful partnership

25:22

with Facebook, now Meta, to help

25:25

power their program that they call official

25:27

events. So years ago,

25:29

somebody could go on Facebook and

25:31

create an event page, whether it's

25:33

a backyard barbecue or Beyonce show.

25:36

At the end of the day, nobody knows what's

25:38

the real Beyonce show. And through structured

25:41

data that we're able to provide, we can say,

25:43

this is the actual Beyonce show. And this is

25:45

the venue and this is the promoter and this

25:47

is the artist. And they can all control that

25:49

page and it becomes the hub. That

25:52

page then can be layered on with

25:54

other marketing strategies, whether that's paid

25:57

displayed ads on Facebook or otherwise.

26:00

And so we try to be

26:02

that base layer that other parts of

26:04

the ecosystem can build on top of.

26:07

Another good example is that we

26:09

became the first ticketing company to be

26:12

a part of TikTok, where when

26:14

Billie Eilish goes on tour, if she

26:16

wants, she can create a video that

26:18

she makes for her fans and she

26:20

can add a link to her actual

26:22

show. And that never existed before we

26:24

worked with TikTok. And that's a pretty

26:26

radical change for TikTok. But music, for

26:29

instance, is so central to that experience.

26:31

And so much a part of the

26:33

joy of using TikTok that it was

26:35

a very natural collaboration. And

26:37

our collaboration is about creating

26:40

that foundational product capability

26:42

that enhances the user

26:44

experience for fans and

26:46

users and then other parts of

26:49

the marketing stack layer onto that

26:51

over time. So that's

26:53

how I really view us as a

26:56

part of a broader ecosystem rather than

26:58

just one single entity. I

27:00

remember Michael Ochua, who reports into you

27:02

showed me that link on TikTok that

27:04

looks pretty amazing. Nobody else has that

27:06

link above the title really stands out.

27:09

That's incredibly innovative. How does a deal

27:11

like that come about? There's

27:13

no one simple answer for that, because one

27:16

of the exciting things about this, and

27:19

it requires a tremendous amount of patience. Sometimes

27:21

it can take years to strike

27:24

the right partnership because of

27:27

those divergent timelines of

27:29

strategy, and even the

27:31

company's stock price and resources,

27:34

etc. There are many times that

27:36

we've gone from deep strategic partnership

27:38

and being the flavor of the month, so

27:40

to speak, to being cast aside, you could

27:42

say in another way, because the stock of

27:44

the company changed, right? And you just have

27:47

to roll with those sorts of things. But

27:50

to answer your question, you mentioned Mike Ochua. He

27:53

has our business development group. A lot of it starts,

27:55

not all of it, but a lot of it

27:57

starts with him talking with his counterparts in

27:59

various organizations. organizations, right? So at

28:01

an organization like TikTok, we work closely

28:03

with their music team, but there's also

28:05

product teams. It depends on every

28:08

type of organization. We have other people on the

28:10

team who do business development as well. I'm involved

28:12

in a lot of it. So it starts...

28:14

Sometimes it starts from a client. So, you

28:17

know, and then you client of ours sometimes

28:19

says, Hey, this is a very important channel

28:21

for us. How do we activate that? How

28:23

do we make that happen? And we have

28:25

to figure out is this the right thing

28:27

for our technology? Is that the right thing

28:29

for the client in order to enable this?

28:31

And then is it worth the investment to

28:33

do that? And we ask all those questions.

28:35

And then when we see a

28:37

path, we chase after it. And usually

28:39

it goes well. But like I said, getting

28:41

all of the stakeholders aligned at the

28:44

same time sometimes can feel like a little bit

28:46

of an alchemy. But we've been

28:49

very successful at it over the years. Excellent.

28:51

Excellent. And I did want to

28:53

finish off a question on that topic about

28:55

how much do partnerships make up with regards

28:58

to your broader marketing mix? I'm talking about

29:00

other paid channels, outdoor advertising, paid search and

29:02

things like that. When you look at just

29:04

partnerships as a acquisition channel, let's

29:07

say, just give us a sense

29:09

of the percent mix that it contributes to overall

29:11

sales. It's difficult to say

29:13

that with specificity just for various privacy

29:15

reasons. But I can say that it

29:18

is a not insignificant minority.

29:20

Like I said before, the artist

29:22

or the content holder is their

29:24

best brand ambassador. When the NFL

29:26

is going to release their schedule,

29:29

those tickets will sell because that brand ambassador

29:31

of the team is driving a

29:33

lot of those sales. And so we

29:36

are helping in different parts of the

29:38

sales cycle. So one of the

29:40

key things that we think about is

29:42

when we're selling a ticket and what makes

29:44

it incremental. So this is really important to

29:46

us because if we're just

29:48

selling tickets at an on sale or

29:51

a pre sale, when all of the

29:53

marketing is taking place, whether it's old

29:55

fashioned radio ads or online Instagram posts

29:57

from the artist or the promoter, it's

30:00

That's not where we want to be most

30:02

effective. We want, you know, there's a long

30:05

sales cycle or life cycle of the event

30:07

for all of these events. And

30:09

we want to help get a show

30:12

from 70% sold out to 80% sold

30:14

out because we're able to provide

30:16

them more exposure and discovery and inspiration

30:18

throughout that whole life cycle. So it's

30:21

a pretty significant part of the mix.

30:24

Amazing to hear how it, you know, continues to contribute

30:26

to your company's success. All right, as we start to

30:28

wrap up, I'm curious, what trends are

30:30

you paying attention to for this year? What's

30:32

top of your mind right now? Yeah, for our

30:35

industry, there's a number of topical

30:37

issues. But one is just the

30:39

continued expansion of what we would

30:41

call the experience economy. So coming

30:43

out of the pandemic, it became

30:46

pretty clear that consumers want experiences

30:48

and not necessarily as much stuff,

30:50

so to speak. Our

30:52

research shows that 70% of

30:55

fans are concerned about finances

30:58

or the economy, but 60%

31:00

of those fans aren't willing

31:02

to come back online. This is really important

31:04

to them. This is the thing that will

31:06

make or break their year of being able

31:08

to go to see that special artist to

31:10

them. So that's something that

31:12

we're continuing to lean into as a business.

31:15

Next and related to that is there's

31:17

obviously a growing fascination with the intersection

31:19

of travel and live events. So

31:22

we're working very hard to

31:24

have our content available through

31:27

online travel agencies. So

31:29

Get Your Guide or VyTRE, particularly when

31:31

it comes to more local kind

31:33

of events. So you show up

31:35

in London, for instance, and you

31:38

don't know exactly what you're going to do after you walk around the

31:40

city all day. But we have the ability

31:42

for you to find the immersive exhibit

31:44

called Frameless, which is the Van Gogh

31:46

exhibit, right? And we make it possible

31:48

to buy directly within those channels. And

31:51

so we see that as something that as

31:53

more and more people not only travel, but

31:55

want to do things while they're traveling, whether

31:58

they have bought that ticket in advance. or

32:00

they buy their ticket while they're there. We

32:03

need to be in those channels. So that's a big

32:05

theme for us as well. And

32:07

then I can't not mention the fact

32:09

that just like every company, everyone is

32:11

thinking about AI and what

32:14

that's going to mean for our business, whether

32:16

it's AI or generative AI or LLMs. And

32:19

we know that's going to create interesting

32:22

opportunities for our industry, just like

32:24

all industries, whether that's how

32:27

we support fans and customer service, or

32:29

the way the venues are able to

32:31

manage events and their inventory or how

32:33

fans discover them. While it's

32:35

a very big ocean to boil, we certainly

32:38

have a team that thinks about that day

32:40

in day out. And we know

32:42

that there's going to be opportunities to enhance

32:44

our services for our clients and our fans.

32:46

And some of the stuff that we do

32:48

in our distribution group fit into that category

32:50

as well. Again, I'd love

32:52

that focus on the customer. And I'd love

32:54

that point around prioritizing travel partnerships,

32:57

that you're paying attention to the consumer

32:59

trends, you're noticing a spike in travel,

33:02

and that whole change in consumer behavior. And

33:04

you're responding to that. I think a huge

33:06

piece of being successful in the partnership economy

33:08

is doing what you're suggesting,

33:10

right? Studying your user, asking what

33:12

they think, or just noticing their

33:14

trends. Remaining agile as an organization,

33:17

which you're clearly demonstrating. And

33:19

then just thinking about partnerships that just

33:21

make sense for you and your customers,

33:23

essentially, including your artists as well. So

33:27

Dan, that's a wrap. Thank you so much

33:29

for joining me in this fascinating episode of

33:31

the Partnership Economy podcast. To our listeners, thank

33:33

you for tuning in. We'll see you next

33:35

time. Thanks a lot. I

33:40

really enjoyed my conversation with Dan and learning

33:42

the ins and outs of the live ticketing

33:44

industry. What I found incredibly

33:46

insightful was Dan's continuous focus on

33:49

the customer. It's clear that

33:51

he views every partnership through the lens of

33:53

how it serves the end consumer. For

33:55

example, Ticketmaster's partnership with Spotify

33:57

enhances the user experience. because

34:00

they're able to book concert tickets for their

34:02

favorite artist in app while already listening to

34:04

the artist on Spotify. Dan also has a

34:07

strong sense for implementing partnerships that just make

34:09

sense for his industry based on the data

34:11

that he's seeing. A great

34:13

example of this is his plan to

34:15

partner with travel agencies to sell event

34:18

tickets, admits an uptick in travel and

34:20

demand for live events. I also appreciate

34:22

that he doesn't just follow trends that

34:24

may not apply to his business. I

34:26

loved it when he said that artists

34:28

are the best influencers. So Ticketmaster

34:30

prefers to work with creators in

34:32

other non-traditional ways. Finally,

34:34

I completely agree with Dan's advice for

34:37

moving upwards within an organization. As

34:39

you start out in your career, then be afraid

34:41

to do the, as he put it, unglamorous work.

34:44

What you learn and the relationships that you

34:46

develop will be invaluable as you continue to

34:48

rise up. Thank you, Dan,

34:50

for joining us on this episode of the

34:52

Partnership Economy podcast. And to our listeners, thank

34:54

you for tuning in. Thanks

34:57

for listening to the Partnership Economy brought

34:59

to you by impact.com. If

35:01

you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe

35:03

to the show and rate and review it

35:05

on Apple Podcasts.