1:30

Hi friends , welcome back to

1:32

the show . I'm so excited

1:34

today to be joined by Margo

1:36

Feldman , who created

1:39

the Instagram page Softcore

1:41

Trauma , which is a page

1:43

that is dedicated to

1:45

holding space for

1:48

the different ways that trauma shows up in

1:50

our lives . Through that page , margo

1:52

has been able to amplify

1:55

so much of their other

1:57

work and I'm just so

1:59

honored to share space

2:01

with Margo today and to have them on

2:03

the show . So with that

2:05

, let's jump into the episode

2:07

. Hello , hello

2:09

, hi everyone . Welcome back to the Prolific Hub

2:11

podcast . I'm your host , aliyah Cheyenne

2:13

, and I'm so excited today

2:15

to be joined by Margo Feldman

2:18

. Hi , margo , hi , margo

2:24

, I am so happy to have you on

2:26

and I usually love to kick off

2:28

with an introduction for you to

2:30

share more about who you are and your

2:32

work . But I also love to share

2:34

how I found out

2:36

about you and , like

2:39

many things , social media is a big

2:41

place . But I

2:44

want to say I learned

2:46

about your Instagram page , the Softcore

2:49

Trauma page , maybe two

2:51

years ago , and

2:53

I've been following you and your work since

2:56

, and I think what pulled me in the most

2:58

is just feeling really seen

3:01

and comforted by some

3:03

of your work . Who

3:07

knew memes had so much power

3:09

?

3:10

Truly .

3:13

Who knew memes had so much power ? But

3:15

I remember you had done

3:17

a post I can't say how long

3:20

ago , but it was something around grief

3:22

and the memes that you use and the language

3:25

that you use to talk about grief was

3:28

just so comforting to me . It

3:30

allowed me to humanize

3:32

grief in a way that I hadn't before

3:35

, as something to be

3:37

acknowledged and cradled

3:40

and held and not

3:42

to be thought about as separatist of self

3:44

but as part of self , and I

3:47

have been hooked ever since and

3:50

so honored to have you on today .

3:55

Thank you for sharing that's so like

3:57

it's such a strange thing to

3:59

. I kind of just you know , I have my own feelings

4:01

around the like language of like influencers and content

4:03

creators , so I just like to call myself a

4:06

human on the internet . Yeah , and

4:08

like as a human on the internet

4:10

, I it's just like so nice to get

4:13

to hear what

4:15

has like resonated with folks

4:17

, because it is just like such like a

4:19

you know crazy space

4:22

where I'm just putting memes out

4:24

into the world and like hoping that

4:26

they , that they land . But it's just really

4:28

nice on my end to get to like receive some of your

4:30

story about how you came to my work . So so

4:32

, thank you .

4:34

Thank you . So with

4:36

that , I would love for you

4:38

to introduce yourself to

4:40

the audience for folks who may

4:42

not be aware of your work . I

4:45

always like to ask guests like how

4:47

would you describe yourself

4:50

? How do you want to be known today ? How do you

4:52

want to be seen ? So can you share more

4:54

about who you are in the world today ?

4:57

The desire to be seen and , simultaneously

5:00

, the desire to not be seen . Yeah

5:04

, so my name is Margo . I

5:06

use they , them pronouns . I am

5:08

non-binary , because

5:11

I just never want to be put in a box

5:13

, and I feel like that is something

5:15

that has taken shape

5:18

across all arenas

5:20

of my life . I

5:23

am someone who's chronically ill , I'm

5:25

someone who lives with complex trauma

5:28

, so those are always kind of with

5:30

me on the day-to

5:32

. Their presence changes

5:34

and shifts depending on

5:37

on the season , but you know , more recently

5:39

I have been in like a pretty high pain

5:41

, flare state that I haven't experienced

5:44

in many years

5:46

, and so that is like

5:48

a passenger with me right

5:50

now . So other

5:53

ways that I like describe myself

5:55

I'm a , I'm a writer . That's like my

5:57

, my passion , my heart's desire

5:59

in the world , the thing that

6:01

fuels me and makes me happiest . I

6:04

also am learning to claim

6:07

the label of like artists . I

6:09

do visual art , obviously

6:11

, memes , which I absolutely consider

6:13

a form of art . So then

6:16

, like , I think are going to be like studied

6:18

as like a , an art

6:21

form of our , like you know , age

6:23

in many years to come . Um

6:25

, but I also work a lot in collage

6:27

. I've done an installation . I just like

6:30

love , I like , I

6:32

love and I just need to be creative so

6:34

that really

6:36

, whatever shape or form that takes , is

6:39

really just like my lifeblood . And

6:41

then I guess the other piece of me that feels important is

6:44

that I am a public educator

6:46

. I'm just like so passionate

6:48

about you know , and I'm

6:50

sure we'll probably talk about this but like

6:52

taking all of the things that

6:54

I had the privilege to like learn

6:56

through being an academia and going

6:58

to graduate school and being

7:00

able to translate that in ways

7:02

that are accessible for folks

7:05

who either , just like , have

7:07

no interest in , you know , reading

7:09

all the books , like reading all the theory

7:11

, or who , who , for

7:14

so many different reasons

7:16

, can't access higher

7:18

ed . And yeah

7:20

, I just believe that education should be like

7:22

a free resource . And

7:25

so , you know , I really see

7:27

all of the work that I do

7:29

whether that's like webinars or workshops

7:31

or the memes that I make or

7:34

my writing as

7:36

educational , as much as

7:38

they are like also personal .

7:40

Yeah , yeah , thank you so

7:42

much for sharing all of that really

7:44

impactful , really transformative

7:46

work and I love

7:49

the idea or not even the idea , but

7:51

the lived practice of I

7:55

don't know if distilling is the right word , but , yeah

7:57

, distilling information , um , from

7:59

the theoretical , from the like academic

8:02

, to you know , using

8:05

written word and language to just

8:08

really help people to understand

8:10

complex ideas and complex

8:13

ideologies around trauma

8:15

, um , and really simplifying

8:18

it in a way that a lot of people can digest

8:20

, maybe if they don't have access to academia

8:22

, they don't have access to other resources

8:25

like therapy and things like that . So that's

8:27

how I kind of view

8:29

a lot of what I love

8:31

about your work and , yeah , I'm just

8:33

really excited to have you on . So I

8:36

want to jump in on the latter end

8:38

of all those great things . We're going to

8:40

talk about everything , but really wanting

8:42

to kick it off with your just

8:45

your experience with academia . I've

8:48

learned through your work and you held positions , you

8:50

left certain spaces . You're teaching in your own space , in your own ways and spaces now , and then

8:52

you know you held positions , you left certain spaces

8:54

. You're teaching in your own space , in your

8:56

own ways and spaces now , and

8:58

then you're also pursuing higher

9:00

education , so I would love to hear a little

9:02

bit more about just your journey

9:05

with that .

9:06

Yeah , yeah , I mean , I'm just a glutton for

9:08

academic punishment . So

9:11

I think it's my Sagittarius rising

9:14

. For the astrology nerds who might be tuning in

9:16

uh , you know , sagittarians

9:19

like , we just love learning and we just love like

9:21

knowledge and exploring .

9:23

I'm a Sag moon , oh okay

9:26

, I love , yeah , I

9:28

love exploring and knowledge too

9:30

.

9:30

All right , I'm just like I'm so I've just always been a

9:32

naturally curious person , and so

9:34

I feel like you know , I'll

9:36

give some backstory that like kind of

9:39

led me into academia , because it

9:41

is really part of that story for me

9:43

, which is that I actually flunked out of my

9:45

undergrad . I was like put

9:47

on academic probation after my first year and then

9:49

I was like when my grades didn't improve , I was forced to take a leave of absence . And then

9:51

I was like when my grades didn't improve , I was forced

9:53

to take a leave of absence . And

9:55

this was , like you know , coming from . You

9:58

know I got early acceptance into university

10:00

. I was like practically a straight A student in high

10:02

school and , due to

10:05

you know , so much

10:07

mental health stuff that I had no support

10:09

for and my

10:11

father being a single father with like

10:14

ALS , that was like progressing

10:16

I just like was

10:18

not . I

10:24

was just so checked out at school . School was like my fun place and you know I would

10:26

go to some classes , not others , and so all of this kind of you know got

10:29

to the point where , you know , I just

10:31

wasn't turning in assignments and

10:33

and I really just slipped through the cracks , and

10:37

so when I came back after like that year

10:39

off , I really came back with this feeling

10:41

of like maybe I'm actually

10:43

just like not smart enough to be in

10:45

university because I wasn't yet

10:48

ready to acknowledge all of the mental health stuff

10:50

. But I like also had

10:52

like felt , you know , like I just I

10:55

didn't want to like . The feeling was like I didn't want to blame

10:57

my dad , you know and I'm using

10:59

scare quotes there around blame like I just didn't

11:01

want to say that like I had flunked out because

11:04

of like the care work that I was like yeah

11:06

you , um . So I

11:09

came back and I had

11:11

a class , an English literature class

11:13

, and I should say I started actually as a criminology

11:16

and psychology double major because I

11:18

was like always just interested in the human

11:20

mind and

11:22

why we do the things that we do , and

11:24

I grew up as a child of law and order and

11:26

CSI and so I was like

11:28

you know , I was like I want to study the criminal mind

11:31

and so , after like

11:33

flunking out of you know , both of those programs

11:35

, I was like , okay , I'm going to take some of

11:38

like my favorite classes that I had in high school , which

11:40

was like English , lit and philosophy classes

11:42

, and I had this professor who was also

11:44

my TA , who

11:47

clearly saw that like

11:50

I was like a bright student

11:52

and that

11:54

I had very intensely

11:56

low self-esteem about my

11:58

capacities , and he

12:00

was just so encouraging

12:03

and supportive and that

12:06

was the moment where I was like I want to be this person

12:08

, I want to be the

12:10

professor who sees

12:13

students like me and

12:15

can like give them the support they need to

12:17

succeed yeah and

12:19

so from that point on , I was like , all

12:22

right , I'm going to grad school , like

12:24

that is what has

12:26

to happen in order to be a professor

12:28

. And so I did my master's

12:31

, um , and then I went into

12:33

my PhD . And I knew , going

12:35

into the PhD , that already

12:37

the job market did not look the way

12:39

that it used to , that tenure

12:41

track jobs , which are like the only jobs

12:43

that have like real job security , were

12:46

disappearing and

12:49

more and more people were going to grad school

12:51

because that's what you had to do to get jobs

12:53

. Yeah , so the you

12:55

know I knew that the supply and demand

12:58

was like just way out of whack

13:00

, but I still was like I'm just gonna give it . I'm just

13:02

gonna give it a shot realistically , even though I

13:04

am a grossly underpaid graduate student

13:06

with like next to no funding . This

13:08

is , however many the next

13:10

years of my life I'm going to get to spend writing

13:13

, teaching and

13:15

reading and those are my favorite things

13:17

. Oh yeah , so it was

13:19

probably . It took me eight

13:21

years to do my PhD , which is about like

13:23

pretty average for a literature

13:26

program , and that's in

13:28

large part

13:31

almost , I would even say entirely

13:33

because the arts programs are

13:35

not the ones that get funding . So you

13:37

know , you get the little kind of funding package that

13:39

you get from the university and then you're having to

13:41

take on summer teaching and additional

13:44

work , so there's really like no

13:46

time to be like writing the dissertation

13:48

. So but it was probably maybe two years before

13:50

I finished . Two

13:57

years before I finished that I just realized like I did not want

13:59

to have to move to like rural wherever to get the tenure term job , because that's

14:01

usually how it works you kind of have to pay

14:04

your dues somewhere

14:06

and as like a queer , chronically

14:08

ill , like disabled person

14:10

with like radical politics , I was like I don't

14:12

want to have to move somewhere where

14:14

I am not going

14:16

to be able to find community . And

14:19

I was also just like really getting a sense of

14:21

like the intense workload expectations

14:23

of tenured faculty

14:25

, but like then , especially for

14:28

like adjunct or contract faculty

14:30

, like the number of courses

14:32

they were having to teach and

14:34

that they would have to reapply for

14:36

each year , not knowing they would have it

14:38

and as , like a kid who grew

14:40

up poor and like did not

14:43

have like financial stability , I was just like

14:45

I don't

14:47

and I can't , in this chronically ill

14:49

body , work that

14:51

amount yeah um

14:54

. So that was like sort of one

14:56

piece of , like you know , sort of figuring

14:59

out that I needed an exit plan , and

15:01

then I think the other part

15:56

of it was just pure exhaustion

15:59

at just trying to

16:01

do so much activism within , like

16:03

the university space and

16:05

just realizing just

16:07

the layers and layers

16:10

of capitalism and the layers

16:12

of oppression that the institution was just

16:14

so invested in , and

16:16

I just was like there has to be a different way

16:18

that we can learn and do education . So , around

16:21

about probably two years out from

16:23

finishing , around about probably two years

16:26

out from finishing , I had

16:28

started just doing workshops in

16:30

public community

16:33

spaces and I had

16:35

started writing zines and

16:38

publishing them and

16:44

I started to have my Instagram following started to grow slowly but

16:46

surely , so that by the time I was done , I actually kind of

16:48

without any real planning

16:50

of this being like my full hustle , I thought it was maybe

16:52

gonna be like a side hustle . Yeah

16:54

, it became clear that , like I could do

16:56

all of the things that I loved from

16:59

being in academia

17:01

, I could do them outside of academia in

17:03

all of the radical ways that I wanted to do that

17:06

and I was just like , well , great

17:08

, I mean , it hasn't been without

17:11

. Its like struggles , you know , which we can definitely talk

17:13

about . But , you know , hilariously

17:16

I came out of it just realizing like

17:18

oh , I've actually set myself up to

17:21

do the things that I love without being beholden

17:23

to this like very oppressive institution

17:25

.

17:26

Yeah , my goodness , there's so much in

17:28

there . I think something that really resonated

17:31

with me is just the impact of

17:33

people who believe

17:35

in us , despite the things we might

17:37

be going through in our personal

17:40

lives . Like having those teachers

17:42

or professors show up for us is so

17:45

important . It makes me think about a professor

17:47

I had who , kind

17:50

of tough , loved me one day , like

17:52

looked me in the face and was like you're

17:54

so much better than this , You're so smart

17:56

. What are you doing , you know

17:58

? And that one professor

18:00

drastically changed

18:02

the course of my . Like I finished

18:05

undergrad strong because

18:07

of her . Prior to that

18:09

, I was on academic probation because I didn't care

18:12

. There's a lot of other things going on and I

18:14

was just like this is not my priority

18:17

. And it took that one professor seeing

18:19

me and believing in me , to

18:23

be different . And I love that

18:25

. Like through your journey in academia

18:27

, like you've learned

18:30

that that work can exist

18:32

outside of sort of these institutions

18:35

that are poised to

18:37

function a certain way , Like we

18:39

can build a new thing , Like we can do a

18:41

different thing outside of that . It's

18:44

so cool that you were able to

18:46

, you know , pursue , not without

18:48

hardship , but pursue your interests

18:50

and your passions and really move

18:52

into a space where you didn't have

18:55

a plan for something , but it came

18:57

to be . It worked out , so

18:59

I think that's really cool . I

19:03

think one thing I think about , though , is especially

19:05

for people who may consider themselves solopreneurs

19:08

or entrepreneurs or creatives , whatever

19:12

the label that applies

19:14

. There are some folks who specifically go to school

19:16

for the degree to do

19:19

a thing , don't

19:23

they figure it out outside

19:25

of the institution of school , but

19:27

I'd love to know how

19:29

pursuing your MFA and your

19:31

PhD , how that has specifically

19:34

supported you in your work

19:36

. How have those programs and

19:38

those degrees served you and helped you

19:40

so far ?

19:42

For sure , yeah , I think one of

19:45

the I think one of like the first big things

19:47

was , you know , so my PhD

19:49

dissertation was about chronic illness and trauma

19:51

, and so I just had all

19:53

of this time that was like

19:55

supported to read all

19:58

the books about , like trauma

20:00

theory and you know

20:02

, chronic illness , you

20:11

know chronic illness . So you know , I had space to gain that knowledge . And

20:13

then , because I had , I mean , there's like kind of like

20:15

two different camps in academia of like how to write , and one

20:17

camp is like let's

20:19

write this in the most convoluted way we can because

20:21

it makes us look smart , but like and

20:24

people are gonna have to struggle to understand what we're saying

20:26

. And then there's the camp of like actually

20:28

it's like smarter to like explain

20:30

things as simply as you can

20:33

, like that actually is harder to

20:35

do and more impressive . And so , thankfully

20:38

, my , my supervisor was someone in

20:40

that latter camp who was just like

20:42

how do you just say the thing

20:44

like simply ? So

20:47

that really taught me

20:49

how to translate

20:51

like dense , often unreadable

20:54

, like theory , like even for me

20:56

, into something that was digestible

20:59

for everyone

21:01

. You don't have to be in academia to be

21:03

smart . Yeah , not at all

21:05

you know there are like so many fucking smart people who just like don't have to be in academia to be smart yeah

21:07

, not at all . Like so many fucking smart people who just like don't

21:09

have access to academia or don't have interest in academia

21:12

, you know , or like are

21:14

too busy surviving to like be able

21:16

to do that . But yeah , it was always just really

21:18

important for me , especially , you know

21:20

, like my dad was a very smart man but he had like a high school

21:23

education and , you

21:25

know , did not do any further education

21:27

after that , and so if I wanted to

21:29

like talk to him about my research , I

21:32

wanted to like explain that in a way that

21:34

like was accessible to him

21:37

. So academia really

21:39

helped me there . It also

21:41

gave me years

21:44

and years of teaching experience

21:46

because , like you know

21:48

, part of the funding package was

21:50

that you were a TA , a teaching assistant

21:52

, every year . So

21:54

, you know , I got to teach hundreds and hundreds

21:57

and hundreds of students and

21:59

eventually also create my own courses

22:01

as a result of that and be a course

22:03

instructor . It also

22:05

gave me opportunities to

22:08

not only teach but have space to

22:10

talk about and think about teaching , to

22:13

think about what a radical

22:15

trauma informed

22:18

pedagogy or way of teaching what that looks

22:20

like . So all of that

22:23

absolutely helped

22:25

me . All

22:31

of that like absolutely , you know , helped me in creating the Instagram account

22:33

, you know , and doing the work that I do there . And

22:35

then with the MFA I mean . So the funny story you know here

22:37

is like after my PhD , I was like I'm done

22:39

, I'm done with grad school , yeah

22:42

, and . And so I'm Canadian and

22:45

I

23:23

had come to Los Angeles a couple of years

23:25

ago and just fallen in love with it

23:27

and I was like I really

23:29

feel like this is a place that I'm like supposed

23:31

to be . And I was like an

23:33

immunocompromised person living through

23:35

a pandemic , you know

23:37

, very cold Canada

23:40

, with like four to five months of winter

23:43

, you know that really like isolated

23:45

you . I was like , okay , like

23:47

here I could just like I can just hang out

23:49

with people outside literally any day

23:51

of the week . So

23:54

I was like , all right , well , how do I get to Los Angeles

23:56

? My options are to

23:58

get married to

24:00

you know , get a job , or

24:03

to go to school , and that's like

24:06

all I kind of knew . So I was like

24:08

, well , maybe I could do

24:10

an MFA , and you

24:12

know so , and I , but I really was like

24:15

, okay , I'll go to school

24:17

if it will support me in doing the

24:19

thing that I want to be doing , which is writing . And

24:21

so , for the MFA , it's like this was

24:23

like one of the happiest years of my life , because I literally just got to go to school the

24:25

thing that I want to be doing , which is writing , and so , for the MFA , it's like this

24:28

was like one of the happiest years of my life , because I literally just

24:30

got to go to school three days a week and like talk about writing and

24:33

like do my own writing

24:35

and work on like the next

24:37

book that I want to have out in the world . So

24:40

, yeah , in terms of the MFA , it's really given

24:42

me that space to write

24:44

and be in community with other writers

24:46

and artists . Um , and

24:48

that's just like , really just like

24:51

filled my little like creative , fiery

24:53

heart . So

24:56

yeah , though , and you know , and being at CalArts also

24:58

, because it is like a writing program

25:00

, you're getting professionalization

25:02

in ways to like support

25:04

you in getting your

25:06

writing published , which

25:09

is I had . I had been

25:11

getting stuff published in like magazines

25:13

, like online , little bit by little bit

25:15

, but it's so hard . Acceptance

25:18

rates are so low , so

25:20

eventually , I just became so frustrated with it

25:23

that I was just like I'm just going to start like

25:25

self publishing and making my little , my

25:27

little zines . So , yeah

25:29

, it's been good to like have

25:32

a program that's , like , you know , helping

25:34

me get my work out

25:36

there . Yeah , I guess those

25:38

would be some of some of the ways that

25:40

that academia has has

25:42

supported me in like making

25:45

this transition yeah

25:47

, okay .

25:48

So we're gonna touch on so many of these things

25:50

because a bunch of different points . We're

25:52

gonna dive deep on a little bit more . Just

25:55

first , randomly , my sister actually

25:57

loves LA , wants to move there someday

26:00

.

26:01

I'm sure she'll love to get in touch

26:03

and share

26:05

whatever wisdom I've acquired by

26:08

that point in time .

26:09

Yeah , I love that and

26:11

like gosh , I

26:13

keep bringing this up . But recently I just

26:16

did like an astro cartography reading

26:18

. I was actually really surprised

26:20

by the feedback I got . But one of

26:22

the places that apparently I would do really

26:24

well in is LA and I was

26:26

like I was not expecting that . That's

26:29

very interesting , but I also got Minnesota

26:31

and I'm just like listen Very

26:34

different vibe . I

26:37

have to take this information with a grain

26:39

of salt . So I'm just like . But

26:42

to take a step back to the beginning

26:44

, I love what you were describing at the

26:46

start of that , which was you

26:49

having the

26:51

ability and the strength of just translating

26:53

really complex information in the simplest

26:56

terms so that even someone like your

26:58

dad could understand , and I think that's

27:01

so beautiful and I think that's something that

27:03

I love and find

27:05

in the soft core trauma page . So

27:07

I would love

27:09

to know just kind of the origin

27:11

story of just how

27:14

and why you decided to start the

27:16

page , just so

27:18

you know for folks who may not know I

27:21

don't know and I would love to know and just kind

27:23

of the beginning of that journey .

27:26

Yeah , absolutely . So it's really funny . I

27:28

am like an archivist

27:30

. I like do not get rid of like any

27:32

, anything , like you know . So

27:35

if you actually were to scroll

27:37

all the way down to the start of my Instagram

27:40

, you would like see these like original

27:42

posts , making memes with

27:44

something that only started a couple of years ago for

27:46

me . So originally

27:48

I started the page

27:51

just , I think , under the handle

27:53

floral manifesto , because I had a blog

27:56

called floral manifesto and

27:58

some friends were just like you should

28:00

, you should have an Instagram account where you're like sharing

28:03

, you know , to like promote the blog . And I was like , okay , should have an Instagram account where you're sharing

28:05

to promote the blog . And I was like , okay , sure . So I started

28:07

. The

28:09

blog was sort of about the intersections of

28:12

fashion , feminism and feelings

28:14

and a lot of the ways

28:16

in which clothes can support our

28:18

mental health , and wanting

28:21

to offer a different kind of narrative

28:23

to fashion because

28:25

, like you know , we often think

28:28

about it as something that's like antithetical to feminism

28:30

, like the fashion industry , and it is

28:32

in so many ways . But I grew

28:35

up with a mother who loved clothes

28:37

and she passed away when I was 11

28:39

, and so that was always something that

28:41

I continued to like have with

28:43

me , like I just love those . So

28:46

you scroll all the way back lots

28:48

of like selfies , outfit selfie

28:50

and stuff from from that

28:52

page . Then , as

28:55

I was starting to think about like trying to like publish

28:57

writing , I started to share little

28:59

snippets of my writing

29:01

on the page and

29:04

that's when I like really noticed like the account

29:06

start to like grow . You know , I think I

29:08

had like over like 1000 followers and

29:10

which felt like massive at that point in time

29:12

. And then I also

29:15

started to like make posts that

29:17

were very like like kind

29:19

of like infographic you

29:22

know , definition of terms

29:24

and like you know , talking about like trauma

29:26

and breaking down different kinds of like theory

29:29

. That I was like reading and

29:31

that's really where the page stayed for quite

29:34

a while was , like you know , infographic-y

29:37

educational posts and then like snippets

29:39

of my writing . And

29:41

then I was just getting exhausted

29:44

by how much time it took

29:46

to create these

29:49

infographic like carousels and

29:52

I knew that I still wanted to do

29:54

like public education , but I was , you

29:57

know , I was essentially writing mini essays and

29:59

then , like you know their hearts

30:01

, so like dealing with people in the comments who were like

30:03

, oh , but you didn't talk about X and you didn't

30:05

mention this and you know , and I was like

30:07

my friends , this is an

30:09

Instagram carousel . I cannot

30:11

possibly include every detail

30:14

. No , you know , like this

30:16

is why I have a dissertation and this is why , like , I have

30:18

like longer form writing , so it really

30:20

, and it started to just like form

30:25

writing , so it really , and it started to just like honestly feel really extractive . I

30:27

think that social media is so fascinating to me in how

30:30

we engage with like you

30:32

know , whether you want to call them content creators

30:34

, fluencer , artists , people where

30:37

we have a way of engaging

30:39

with them as though they're not like human

30:41

beings , uh , and

30:44

as though we are owed

30:46

something by following

30:48

them . You know , and I see this , I see this

30:50

happen a lot , you know , in terms of like folks

30:53

who have been like you know , since

30:55

like october 7th , talking a lot more about

30:57

politics on their page , for example , and

30:59

then people being like I thought this was a

31:01

page for like x , and

31:03

now you're talking about this yeah

31:06

, yeah , we're just like friends .

31:07

It's all interconnected every so

31:10

, especially with the block list that's happening

31:12

now . Celebrities who have been very silent

31:15

since October . Yes , very interesting

31:17

.

31:17

I know , I know it's just like yeah

31:19

, and mean I get

31:22

, on the one hand , especially now that I have

31:24

the platform that I do . I

31:27

do think it is super important for

31:30

us to be using that

31:32

space to talk about atrocities

31:35

that are happening in the world , and

31:38

I think , again , we can also just really dehumanize

31:40

those who are on the other

31:43

side of that account and

31:45

and talk to them in ways that we wouldn't talk

31:47

to people if we were just talking face to face

31:49

like in the world

31:52

. And so that's like another thing that I kind of just

31:54

like watch and I'm always just like interested

31:56

in and have definitely been on the receiving end

31:58

of you know what other people's expectations

32:01

of me are and

32:07

having this very parasocial relationship where I'm like I don't have any clue who you

32:09

are and I'm sharing my

32:11

most vulnerable bits and pieces

32:14

here . So all

32:16

of those things just kind of came to a head and I was just

32:18

like I hate

32:20

, I dreaded going onto Instagram

32:23

and

32:27

I know that there are lots of people who have had , overall , just like not

32:29

positive experiences on social media , but

32:31

for me , I've built so

32:33

much community and like

32:35

deep relationships with

32:37

people like who are now some of my closest

32:39

friends through social media

32:42

. Yeah , and again , I'm just so

32:44

invested in public education I was like I don't want to

32:46

just opt out of this platform , so

32:48

how can I make it more fun ?

32:50

Yeah .

32:51

And that's like you know . So I was actually on an Instagram

32:53

pause and I was over on , like my friends

32:55

only Instagram and I saw this like

32:58

image of like two iguanas and

33:00

one is like hugging the other from like behind

33:02

and they're just in this like intimate little pose

33:04

and I just like posted it on my

33:06

stories with , like you know , some little

33:08

like like meme captions and

33:11

and then that you know , when I came back

33:13

from my break , I just like shared that

33:15

like not necessarily with any plan to become

33:17

a meme account , but I was just like this was a

33:19

fun thing I made and people just

33:22

went like crazy for it and I

33:24

was like all right , so

33:26

instead of spending like hours making this like

33:28

detailed mini essay infographic , I

33:30

can actually just spend my time looking

33:33

at photos of cats on Pinterest

33:35

and then , like you know

33:37

, making memes . And

33:40

it was the making memes that , like I think , think you

33:42

know , probably before I started making memes , I had maybe

33:44

20,000

34:17

followers , and then I

34:19

mean now , in like the two

34:22

or three years I guess that I've been doing

34:24

that , now have , like

34:26

you know , close to 350,000 followers

34:29

. So it's just kind of wild

34:32

. I didn't really know there was a niche market

34:34

for memes about trauma

34:36

with cute animals , but

34:40

I tapped into that . It has resonated .

34:43

Yeah , I love the evolution

34:45

of that and also

34:47

thank you for sharing

34:50

and being vulnerable . I know it's

34:52

obviously not easy to talk about having

34:55

been or having to be a caregiver to

34:58

a parent and then also having dealt

35:00

with the loss of a parent , especially as

35:02

a young child . So holding space for

35:04

you for that , thank you for sharing and I'm

35:06

glad that you have found ways

35:09

to honor your

35:11

mother through fashion and through other things

35:13

, and you know how that's evolved

35:16

over time . So I

35:18

think , yeah , that's a very

35:20

beautiful evolution . Who

35:22

knew ?

35:23

who knew , and

35:25

I share that , because it's like you know

35:27

, I want , I want , I

35:30

feel like through again

35:32

. This is like you know , like I didn't go to school for business

35:34

. Once I like realized that I was gonna

35:36

make this my business , you know , I

35:38

started following some like accounts

35:40

that did like business , like coaching

35:43

or whatever , and all of the stuff that

35:45

I was seeing on there was like

35:47

so not what I

35:49

was doing especially . It's like you know , like

35:51

always be consistent , like you know , create this . And I was just like

35:53

I again like , don't put me into a . You know , like , always be consistent , like you know , create this . And

35:55

I was just like I again like , don't

35:58

put me into a box . You

36:00

know , I really want other folks

36:02

to like know that like , for me , I think

36:04

what has made me successful is always honoring

36:06

my authenticity and

36:08

not , you know , and this was

36:10

the same in academia . You know , I did not

36:13

do all of the things that I was told to do in academia

36:15

, which was just , you know , like , publish , publish , publish

36:17

academic papers . I was like , no

36:19

, I'm gonna like publish my like personal

36:22

essays and run

36:24

teaching conferences and

36:26

do , like you know , activism

36:28

and all of those things are

36:30

like . What has like led me to being successful

36:33

? Yeah , and similarly on my Instagram

36:36

, you know , when I was no longer feeling good about like . What has like led me to being successful ? Yeah , and similarly on my Instagram , you know , when I was

36:38

no longer feeling good about like what I was

36:40

doing , just

36:42

deciding to change and like

36:44

people , you know , following along

36:46

with that . I think

36:48

it's like it gives . My hope is that it

36:51

gives other people permission to

36:53

honor their evolution and

36:55

to just like , do what feels right

36:57

to them , rather than be like , oh , but this is

36:59

, this is not my business plan

37:01

and , like you know , deviating

37:04

. Yeah , I just I

37:06

really do think that we all can like , feel

37:09

another person's authenticity

37:11

, and that

37:13

that , again , just really gives us

37:15

permission to be our authentic selves

37:17

.

37:19

Yeah , so many things with that . I

37:22

love podcasts . I'm constantly listening

37:24

to them . I was listening to

37:26

another show earlier today where

37:28

the person also

37:31

has a pretty big

37:33

following on one account , but

37:35

she was describing that , on

37:39

one hand , it's been able to support her to

37:41

share her other great works but

37:43

on the other hand , like there are so many changes

37:46

with social media constantly , especially instagram

37:48

, that it's made it hard to do certain

37:50

things and grow , and you know she

37:52

was explaining different

37:54

sections of her , like groupings

37:57

of her following , like not everybody who's

37:59

following you is active , like some people

38:01

are accounts that have been abandoned , some

38:03

Some people don't engage . She was explaining all

38:05

of those things . She

38:08

says something similar that you are also

38:10

saying I don't want to be put in a box . I

38:12

don't want to feel caged in . Both

38:14

of you are speaking about following

38:17

your evolution and being authentic to yourself

38:19

, and I think that's so important in your

38:22

work . There's someone else that

38:24

I listened to . One thing I love

38:26

about their work is that they

38:29

always show up authentically

38:31

, so they're never in spaces or in

38:33

rooms where they have to perform , because

38:35

they surround themselves with situations

38:38

and positions where they can

38:40

be their true and authentic selves . They don't have

38:42

to fake it or hide or perform

38:44

. So I love your advice about

38:47

remaining true to yourself , being authentic

38:49

and honoring your evolution , because

38:52

maybe where you start is not necessarily where

38:54

you end up , and I think that's really beautiful

38:56

. I would love to know more

38:58

about the different offerings you have

39:00

. I know you , you're an author

39:03

. I know you have like the anchored

39:05

card decks , like I know that

39:07

I love your newsletter . So I would

39:09

love to know more about the offerings you

39:11

have and , yeah , like

39:13

share more about your work .

39:15

Yeah , I mean , yeah , it's so funny

39:17

. I'll just say , say to like

39:19

the process of like figuring

39:23

out how to make sense of all of the different things that

39:25

I do has been like a hilarious part of

39:27

like being my own boss of like

39:29

you know , trying to even just like create a website

39:31

that like encapsulates like all

39:33

of . So I guess in like so I've got you know , I do regular

39:45

, fairly regular like webinars or workshops

39:47

, usually around

39:50

the topics of like relationships and trauma

39:52

in some way shape or form . So

39:55

I actually have training in like conflict

39:57

resolution and so I have a series

39:59

of workshops on , like you know , trauma , informed

40:01

conflict transformation , because

40:04

you know , I'm just I'm constantly thinking about

40:06

the ways in which , yes , like trauma

40:08

like impacts our relationships but like

40:10

really the world that we live

40:12

in that has caused the trauma has not taught

40:14

us how to be right in the

40:17

kinds of relationships we actually like want to be

40:19

in . You know we're either like totally

40:21

conflict averse , like

40:24

want to be in . You know we're either like totally conflict averse or you know we are

40:26

like going to battle and like don't , we don't actually know how to

40:28

like move through conflict , you know . And then I've got

40:30

another workshop on like boundary work from

40:32

like a trauma informed lens . So there's a

40:34

whole host of like different workshops and webinars

40:37

that I run and I think

40:40

I've been trying to think of , like you

40:42

know , the problem with my brain I have a million different

40:44

ideas and there's

40:46

not enough time to execute all of them . But

40:48

I'm thinking

40:50

of doing an upcoming workshop on thinking about

40:52

like attachment theory from like

40:54

the let through the lens of like systemic oppression

40:57

and really

40:59

looking at the ways in which our attachment

41:02

strategies are not

41:04

only shaped by , you know

41:06

, our relationship with our caregivers actually , and I really , like

41:08

you know , feel like they

41:25

didn't really like fuck me up , but like I

41:27

absolutely have like attachment trauma

41:29

and and then we're like , well

41:31

, guess what ? As a marginalized person

41:33

, like in a world that

41:35

works to oppress you , like that actually

41:37

is its own form of attachment trauma

41:40

and so

41:42

stay tuned for that . I

41:45

also , yes , I have

41:48

a sub stack newsletter where I

41:50

share my longer form writing called

41:52

carescapes , and I've just started

41:55

a special part

41:57

of that . That is behind a paywall but like with

41:59

a very clear if you cannot afford the

42:01

five dollars a month , like just email me

42:03

. But I sort of needed a boundary

42:06

around this more vulnerable

42:08

writing , which I'm calling my , my wounding

42:10

slash , wanting diary . Yeah

42:13

, really about like

42:15

the ways in which wounding

42:17

and wanting are so

42:19

like inextricably linked

42:21

for me , um

42:23

, and and really trying to explore why

42:25

that is and like what that's

42:28

like looked like throughout my life and how I'm

42:30

like healing from that . Yeah

42:32

, in the present , um , I

42:35

also like this is you know

42:37

, haven't been able to make an official , official

42:39

announcement yet , but I do have a publisher

42:41

for my first book , like this congratulations

42:44

. So I'll be able to make yeah , we're

42:46

just ironing out a few details but I'll

42:48

be able to make like a more official announcement about

42:50

that , um in the coming probably

42:53

weeks or maybe next month or so . So

42:55

I'm really excited , uh , to

42:57

have a book out in the world . And

43:01

yeah , then I have a deck of

43:03

cards that I made called anchored , which

43:05

like actually just started when

43:08

my like chronic pain and

43:11

and CPTSD , dissociation

43:13

just like really took over my life and I

43:15

couldn't write . Writing was like

43:17

impossible , yeah , but I needed to create

43:20

and so I started creating these

43:22

cards . Some I call them like

43:24

intuition cards or Oracle cards

43:27

. I've called them like anchor cards

43:29

, because each card represents

43:31

like a different practice

43:35

or feeling or strategy

43:38

that we can use to

43:41

help our nervous system

43:43

. So I launched that almost

43:45

a year ago pre-orders for that

43:47

and it comes with like a 200

43:49

page guidebook that I wrote . And I was like

43:52

which was like , yeah , a little well

43:54

at me being like , yeah , guidebook , it'll

43:56

be , like you know , very chill . And

43:58

then I was like , okay , like yeah , writing

44:01

, you know , you know , two pages

44:03

, because each card comes with like a write-up

44:05

about it and then a practice that you can do

44:08

to , like you know , work with that card

44:10

. Yeah you know , and then you

44:12

throw in a couple of card spreads

44:14

and you know write an introduction and then you're like

44:16

at 200 pages and you're like , cool , okay

44:19

, this was you know . Uh , brevity

44:22

has never been my strong suit , uh

44:24

, whatsoever , so I just

44:26

have to embrace that , uh . And

44:28

then I guess , yeah , the final thing is that I have

44:31

like a bunch of like zines , which is

44:33

like short for magazine yeah

44:35

, you who are not familiar with that

44:37

term , and it really came out

44:39

of like the 1980s , like

44:41

it existed prior to that in like fanfic

44:44

, but became like really popularized by

44:46

like the Riot Grrrl movement

44:48

in the 90s and like late 80s

44:50

and so , and really

44:52

it's just like you know , an essay

44:55

, you know , or a smaller

44:57

collection of essays that's smaller than a book , more

44:59

like kind of the size of a smaller magazine

45:02

. And so that was

45:04

like my way of just being like I want this writing to

45:06

exist in the world . I don't want to deal

45:08

with like all of the rejections of magazine

45:10

, not because you know , nothing is getting rejected because

45:13

it's not good , it's just like getting rejected because

45:15

they have like 5 million

45:17

submissions and they just have to like

45:19

pick from that . Yeah , yeah

45:21

, those are all the things then , because

45:24

I'm crazy , uh , and want

45:26

to always do more things coming

45:28

up and I just haven't figured out the launch for it

45:30

yet , but I am starting like a discord

45:32

server for the softcore trauma community

45:35

cool because I just love

45:37

helping , like I just love being

45:39

able to be in community and like I

45:41

know that so many people struggle to find

45:43

community . So it'll be

45:45

a space where there'll

45:48

be like regular , like monthly events

45:50

that will happen and there's , like you

45:52

know , a whole bunch of different channels around

45:54

different topics for like folks

45:56

to connect and I'm

45:58

really excited for that . That's

46:00

me exist and grow

46:03

.

46:04

I love all of that . Those are all such beautiful

46:06

offerings , but especially that last

46:08

piece because , as you know one of the questions

46:10

I had for you about how you've seen

46:12

you know , how have you seen your work foster

46:15

community , and you've answered that several times

46:18

over . You've been able to cultivate

46:20

friendships from your work . You've been

46:22

able to see other people connect

46:24

with each other through your work and

46:26

now through launching

46:28

this Discord server at some point

46:30

, that'll be another way

46:32

for folks to foster community and

46:35

especially during a time where there's

46:37

so much loneliness happening

46:40

, like we see it in trends

46:43

on social media , people are

46:45

experiencing loneliness at an

46:47

all-time high . In a lot of ways

46:49

, for people who are part of your community , this

46:52

is sort of something like

46:54

an anecdote for that , like a remedy for that

46:56

, so I think that's really beautiful

46:58

and special . That'll be really exciting

47:01

when that is launched .

47:03

Yeah , I think probably in June , I was like

47:05

, yeah , I was gonna do a May launch

47:07

and then I was like , what are you doing ? You're like just finishing

47:09

up your school semester , like chill for like

47:11

a little bit . So I'm just like it's

47:13

already like all set up . I'm just like for

47:16

, yeah , there's to have the capacity

47:19

to promote it and get

47:21

it , get it launched . Yeah

47:23

, yeah , I mean other things that I've done that like I've loved

47:25

and would love to do again in the future , is that I've done

47:27

like a mixer on my Instagram where people

47:30

submit like they're kind of like dating profiles

47:32

.

47:33

Okay , that's cute .

47:34

It's like it could be for dating , it could be for friendship

47:36

, it could be , you know , a pen

47:38

pal , like , whatever they're sort of like looking for

47:41

in terms of connection , and so they I

47:43

originally started it by like making their

47:45

like little profile , like for them

47:47

, and then that was you know as it grew . I was like

47:50

, okay , this is a lot of work . So then I like got

47:52

people to kind of create their own by just basically

47:54

sending me a story slide with , like

47:56

you know who they were and what they were looking

47:58

for , and a picture and

48:00

and that , and that was like so beautiful . And

48:02

I did that as like a fundraiser . So

48:04

, like people you know to submit

48:07

a profile , you like made a donation so

48:10

long as , like it was possible for you to make a donation

48:12

to someone's like GoFundMe

48:14

or whatever they were doing , and

48:17

then send me that screenshot and I would put up the

48:19

profile and then , yeah , people could just

48:21

message them through a question

48:23

box sticker , um , and

48:25

then that person could decide who they wanted to

48:27

message . And and it's like

48:29

so sweet because every once in a while , like I get a message

48:31

from someone who's like you know , like

48:34

I'm like having a meetup finally with

48:36

, like this person that like I connected with like

48:38

through that mixer , and it

48:40

just like makes my heart so

48:42

happy . I could just be like a

48:45

matchmaker in a different life

48:47

. Yeah .

48:50

I love that . I love that , um

48:52

, and I think that's really special too

48:54

, because something I've spoken

48:56

about on this podcast before just

48:59

finding community . At

49:02

the end of the day , that's how we're going to get

49:06

free , live in a better world . So I

49:09

think , also just on that front , though , some

49:11

things I've heard about

49:14

people who are just deep in

49:16

their creative work or deep in

49:18

their solopreneurship

49:20

or their entrepreneurship is that it can

49:22

sometimes be really lonely , like if you're

49:24

really committed

49:26

to it and you're constantly working

49:29

, you're not giving yourself the space to breathe

49:31

and to work , like it can be really

49:34

lonely . So I'm curious if you've , like , at

49:37

any point experienced that with your career

49:39

and if you have , like , how you've kind of

49:41

remedied that .

49:51

Yeah , I mean , I think I've been really lucky in a lot of ways to not really have experienced that , in

49:53

part because I was already building friendships with people who

49:55

are also doing the same kind of thing . You

49:57

know , like they would share my post

49:59

or they would respond to like one of my posts

50:02

and then , you know , we would kind of get into each other's

50:04

DMS and then it's , you know , I'd be

50:06

following their work and sharing it . So

50:08

I already had probably

50:11

like like a handful of

50:14

you know , like social media friends

50:16

who were also doing their own

50:18

thing . So I was really grateful

50:21

, you know , to have people that I could bounce ideas

50:23

off of . You know

50:25

, or in moments where the internet

50:27

was like not being a super kind

50:29

place , like I had people

50:32

who I could talk about those experiences

50:34

with . You know , and and I'm grateful

50:36

because I have like amazing best friends and like

50:38

an amazing partner , but , like you

50:40

know , they're not doing that kind

50:42

of work . One of my besties is

50:44

, but like she really needs , she actually

50:47

really has to be off of social media for , like her

50:49

mental health , so like , okay , able to

50:51

like . So I would just , I mean , for

50:53

folks who are feeling that loneliness , I would

50:55

just say , like who are people like

50:57

that are doing this work that like you really love

51:00

? You know it might sound like scary

51:02

or like you know vulnerable to like

51:04

slide into their DMS , but , like for me

51:06

, whenever someone's like done that

51:08

and just sent me like a message , it's like

51:10

makes my day . So

51:13

you know , if you can , you

51:15

know , just do the brave , scary thing of like

51:17

putting yourself out there . You

51:19

know , I'm sure that those people probably

51:21

are also feeling disconnected

51:24

and isolated and like they

51:26

would love to have someone to connect with who understands

51:29

what it means

51:31

to do this kind of work

51:33

. Yeah , I just

51:35

. You know , community has

51:38

always just been so important to me so even

51:40

you know I mean doing a PhD when you're doing

51:42

your dissertation always just been so important

51:44

to me . So even you know I mean doing a PhD when you're doing your dissertation

51:46

you're largely just like alone , like wherever it's , like your office or your

51:48

home or whatever it is like you know cranking

51:50

out this like dissertation , and

51:53

I just knew that I would be miserable

51:55

if I was like never seeing

51:57

people . You know

51:59

, in those days , like I created

52:02

like a writing group and we met

52:04

virtually once a week

52:06

to just like work on our writing together

52:09

. So that's like another thing I would suggest , like , if

52:11

you have , if you know , at least just

52:13

all it takes is one person . If

52:15

you have one person , you know

52:17

that you feel comfortable enough , just like saying

52:19

like hey , do you want to have like a virtual meetup

52:22

, like you know , once a week or once a month

52:24

? You know , where we can just like share digital

52:26

space and talk

52:29

about what we're working on and then just have some

52:31

quiet work time that we're just sharing together

52:33

, like that . Really

52:36

, it's also a great accountability

52:38

tool because somehow when there's someone

52:40

else on the screen , even though they have no idea

52:42

what you're doing , you are

52:44

more productive because

52:48

you're less likely

52:50

to like yeah , you know , decide to

52:52

get up and vacuum your apartment or

52:55

do whatever other

52:57

task to do .

52:59

Yeah , I love that advice . That's

53:01

so good and you know it

53:03

helps to alleviate some of those feelings

53:06

around loneliness , but it also creates an accountability

53:08

partner in a way , and I think that's really

53:10

good too , especially in , you know

53:13

, work around creativity or building

53:15

any kind of business or anything like that . I think that's

53:17

so cool . So I know we're almost

53:20

at time . I just have

53:22

like two last questions for

53:24

you . So one

53:27

of them is just

53:30

around being highly

53:32

visible and highly seen

53:35

and how that relates

53:37

to trauma . I

53:39

personally fundamentally

53:42

believe that , especially as

53:44

someone who is working on building a

53:46

business , that I need to be able to

53:48

show up as my full and complete

53:50

self . I no longer want to be in spaces

53:53

where I have to hide

53:55

aspects of myself just

53:57

to do what I need to do , and I

54:00

know that , despite

54:02

the fact that so many people try to compartmentalize

54:04

and put things to the side when they show up to

54:06

work or anything else , those things still

54:09

show up . So I'm very curious

54:11

around your thoughts around the link between

54:13

just maybe

54:15

deep-seated feelings whether they be

54:17

actual instances and experiences of trauma

54:20

or other things that show up and

54:22

how they impact our work For

54:24

people who struggle with being

54:26

visible and being seen in their

54:28

work , especially when their work demands it and requires

54:31

it . I would love just some

54:33

thoughts around that and , you

54:36

know , yeah , any ideas you have . I

54:38

know that's a big question , but it's such an

54:40

important question .

54:41

No , and I have so much to say . It's like where to even

54:43

start ? Yeah , I mean , we

54:46

all have

54:49

this like intense desire

54:51

to be seen , and you know

54:53

, I think that that's actually just like a core human

54:55

need that we have . And if we

54:57

grew up in like families

54:59

that couldn't see us for our full

55:01

self , couldn't celebrate us in our fullness

55:04

which is absolutely my experience

55:06

it is

55:08

both something that you deeply crave and also

55:10

so terrifying . You know

55:12

, the problem like

55:14

, too , with like being a human on the internet

55:17

, is that it is a space

55:19

where people's trauma plays

55:21

out at like rapid speed . I

55:24

see this in like you know people

55:26

reacting rather

55:28

than just like responding , and I don't

55:30

have any judgments on either of those Like we

55:32

we are going to do both like at

55:35

different moments , but you know , I'll see

55:37

it when I've made a post that's

55:39

like maybe a bit spicier and it

55:41

like triggers something in someone , and

55:43

like they bring that into the

55:45

comment section and and

55:47

they're really not seeing me in

55:50

that moment like what they're seeing

55:52

in the writing is like the thing that

55:54

they're afraid of or the thing that's like triggering

55:56

them . And you know , like , at

55:59

the start of like being on

56:01

the internet , like that was incredibly challenging

56:03

for me . Them not seeing me

56:06

then triggered my stuff

56:08

around , like not being seen , and

56:10

then you know the reality is

56:12

, the bigger your following gets , the more

56:14

eyeballs are on you and

56:16

unfortunately , there are humans

56:19

out there that like want

56:21

you to fail , want you to fuck up , are

56:23

like looking for that , especially

56:25

and sadly , within like leftist

56:28

activist communities and

56:30

where there's like actually no space for

56:32

you to like actually be a human who can mess

56:35

up and say the wrong thing

56:37

or do something wrong

56:39

, and and there can be space for you to actually

56:41

be accountable and change and grow

56:44

. And I even see this in

56:46

how folks you know I think that there's

56:48

a lot of great things about like the blockout

56:50

, like movement , and I

56:53

also see the ways in which

56:55

you know the second

56:57

that a celebrity or

57:00

an influencer is like as

57:02

out of you know , I'm

57:04

sure partially out of fear of

57:06

, like you know , being being blocked

57:08

en masse , is deciding

57:10

to speak up about palestine and then

57:12

, like the responses are well , where were they

57:14

seven months ago ? And like

57:17

and and I'm like , oh , and

57:19

I get that . I truly also

57:21

am like , where were you seven months ago ? But

57:24

it's also like , okay , you're here now

57:26

, like welcome

57:29

, like this , you

57:31

know . And so for

57:34

me , like I have been like stalked

57:36

by like people on the internet who

57:38

have like literally like taken

57:40

screenshot of me , getting like

57:43

my nails done as evidence

57:45

that I'm not actually poor , and

57:47

like using the shit in like a campaign

57:50

to like cancel me for

57:53

like quote unquote being like a cult leader

57:55

and like and

57:58

like calling me like a serial abuser . And

58:00

there's just like you know , there's just

58:02

like calling me like a serial abuser and

58:05

there's just like you know , there's just , it's just wild to like make yourself

58:07

visible , because people

58:10

are very

58:12

sadly , from their own places of trauma , are

58:14

like looking for someone

58:16

to turn into the enemy , for someone

58:18

that they can attack , and I absolutely

58:21

have experienced that , and I've also

58:23

been like very rightly called out for

58:25

things at different points in time . Yeah

58:28

, that were opportunities for

58:30

me to step into accountability and

58:33

figure out how I could better

58:35

use my platform . You know , in

58:38

the process of all of those things happening

58:40

. It forced me to really confront

58:42

a lot of trauma

58:44

that I had around not

58:47

being seen . Many a

58:49

therapy session has been spent

58:51

in like saying

58:53

the fact that some people

58:55

just aren't going to see you . They

58:58

have like created a story

59:00

of you . They don't even know you

59:02

and that is the story that they are going to spread

59:04

. That is the story that they are going to tell , and

59:06

other people are going to hear that story and choose

59:08

to believe it and it breaks

59:11

my heart and makes me really sad

59:13

and also

59:15

I'm like well , those humans aren't my humans , because that's

59:18

not how I want to operate in the world

59:20

. I want

59:22

to acknowledge that , quote

59:25

unquote , good people can also cause harm

59:27

and that

59:29

people can make mistakes

59:32

and not be showing up in the ways that we

59:34

would like them to , and they have a chance

59:37

to like address that and change and grow

59:39

. Yeah , so

59:41

it's scary All

59:44

that to say , like I don't share as much

59:46

, like little personal updates about

59:48

my day to day life , because

59:51

I am , like

59:53

you know , thinking about , like

59:55

you know , how . Is there

59:57

still someone ? Are there people who are like watching

59:59

me ? Are there people who are going to take this out of context

1:00:02

. Are there people that are going to like twist this

1:00:04

into some story ? That isn't true . And

1:00:07

I'm also , like you know , very aware

1:00:09

of . Like you know like I share pictures of my partner

1:00:11

and I , but it's like I don't tag them

1:00:14

and that's like they're . You know

1:00:16

, I , with every new human that comes into

1:00:18

my life , I have to have a conversation with them

1:00:20

where I'm like , all right , listen

1:00:22

, obviously you know that I like write about my life

1:00:24

and I , you

1:00:26

know , share a lot of personal details about

1:00:28

my life on the internet . What are your boundaries

1:00:31

around that ? Yeah , but there

1:00:33

is also like a desire to like protect them

1:00:36

from you know

1:00:38

people who you know could

1:00:40

be showing up on you know

1:00:42

people who you know could be showing up on you know in their DMS

1:00:45

. So , yeah , I don't know it's

1:00:52

, I am ambivalent about it . It's like , in many ways , every time I'm vulnerable on the internet

1:00:54

, I get so much affirmation for that and people share

1:00:57

how deeply seen they

1:00:59

feel by what I share and that's

1:01:01

what , that's what keeps me doing it and

1:01:04

I think , like with

1:01:06

trauma brain , we can

1:01:08

swing from one end of the pendulum to the other , where

1:01:11

it's like I've never felt seen to

1:01:13

. I must be seen in my fullness

1:01:15

and entirety . I

1:01:17

am , like you know , going back to

1:01:20

like hiding myself , and

1:01:22

I think that the middle space is like what

1:01:25

I share . I really want to consider

1:01:28

it as a gift that I am like offering

1:01:30

, and some

1:01:32

people are not ready to receive all

1:01:35

parts of me , and so I

1:01:38

have to make the choice around , you

1:01:40

know do is it

1:01:43

in service of me to like show

1:01:45

that part of me and

1:01:48

potentially deal with , like people's

1:01:50

responses negative or positive to that

1:01:52

? Or is that actually something that I just want to

1:01:54

keep for me , because

1:01:57

it is special and precious , and

1:02:00

maybe that's something that I share with my friends

1:02:02

and my loved ones , my community

1:02:05

, but it's not something that needs to exist

1:02:07

on social media at

1:02:10

this particular moment in time .

1:02:12

And maybe never . Yeah , yeah

1:02:14

, all of that is so rich

1:02:17

. I think that's the struggle with wanting

1:02:19

to like , not wanting well

1:02:21

, wanting and needing . And using social

1:02:23

media as a means to like amplify

1:02:26

your work because you get everyone

1:02:29

like you can get like

1:02:31

. People will either be seen and held

1:02:34

or they'll be really triggered , and

1:02:36

being on the receiving

1:02:38

end of that can be really tough and it can

1:02:40

make you want to hide and not be

1:02:42

seen . So you see so many people

1:02:44

who they create all kinds of content and they

1:02:47

never show their face or it takes a long time

1:02:49

for them to actually be

1:02:51

vulnerable and open up and talk

1:02:53

. And you know , like you , you see

1:02:55

them because the internet can be a

1:02:57

cruel place . I

1:02:59

I remember much earlier

1:03:01

episode of the show

1:03:03

talking about how schools should really

1:03:06

focus on and center people who

1:03:08

you know , what their interests are , like different

1:03:11

parts of the world . Like you know , they

1:03:13

look for and test

1:03:15

for varying abilities , like whether

1:03:17

you're you excel really

1:03:20

strongly and you move forward , or you maybe you're someone

1:03:22

who works better with your hands , or maybe

1:03:24

there's something you're not strong at right now

1:03:26

but you have the potential to really learn it

1:03:28

. Like you know , like different schools do

1:03:30

different things and we were just talking about that . We

1:03:32

had made like a small clip of

1:03:35

the extent of that conversation

1:03:37

. But it was a small clip where we

1:03:39

were like , basically everyone shouldn't be

1:03:41

being forced into math

1:03:45

and science if that's not what they want to do , like some

1:03:47

want to write

1:03:49

, some people like philosophy . Everyone's

1:03:52

different and we need to cater to people's

1:03:54

interests . We took a small clip of that conversation

1:03:56

and the STEM community

1:03:58

came after us and

1:04:02

I was just like if

1:04:04

you listen to the whole conversation

1:04:07

and we're not to

1:04:10

talk about this . We're just saying

1:04:12

that everyone . It

1:04:15

doesn't apply to everyone like I

1:04:17

, especially as a black person , I would never

1:04:19

deter other black people not

1:04:21

to pursue stem . I just not

1:04:24

all of us want to do that , you know , and

1:04:27

that we had that moment is like

1:04:29

just a very tidy account , being like

1:04:31

what is happening right now , like is

1:04:34

this , is this what it's like

1:04:36

?

1:04:37

I mean , it can be

1:04:39

, it can be , you

1:04:41

know , and again , like now I look at those

1:04:44

. Like now I look at those moments with like just like

1:04:46

curiosity , like oh all right , that

1:04:48

really , that really poked at something for you

1:04:50

, yeah yeah

1:04:52

all right , you know , because , yeah , I mean

1:04:54

again , this is like the speed of the internet

1:04:57

, right , it's like people listen to a

1:04:59

clip . They don't go

1:05:01

then and listen to the whole episode , they

1:05:03

just like listen to that clip and they're like , all right

1:05:05

, I'm gonna like comment on

1:05:07

this . You know somebody's writing , you like multi-par going to like comment

1:05:10

on this . You know like multi paragraph , like you know response

1:05:12

and you're just like I mean , I

1:05:14

don't know . You know again , it's like I don't really

1:05:16

know another way around that I

1:05:19

often have to put like little like

1:05:21

disclaimers or like caveats

1:05:23

on certain . Yeah , I'm just like y'all

1:05:26

, I know that you're probably going

1:05:28

to come for me about like whatever

1:05:35

X , Y or Z thing and like here's what I have to say about that here . That's not what this post is about

1:05:37

. You know , and I've had to build better boundaries around , like

1:05:39

you know , when folks respond in

1:05:41

ways that like they just aren't getting

1:05:43

it , I just have to be like that's not what I'm talking

1:05:45

about here . Yeah , yeah you , you know

1:05:48

, and I think a different version of me earlier

1:05:50

, you know , would have very much

1:05:52

been like , oh my god , how do I like appease

1:05:54

this person , you

1:05:56

know ? Or if my like more fiery

1:05:59

Aries moon was like activated

1:06:01

, I'd be like I must defend myself

1:06:03

like smashing , you know , smashing . Like

1:06:05

yeah , oh

1:06:08

god , and you know it's been like

1:06:10

, yeah , it's been a real lesson for me of learning

1:06:12

like when , when , to engage

1:06:14

with people who are like just

1:06:16

not seeing me or not understanding

1:06:18

the post

1:06:20

that , you know , is that how I want to spend my

1:06:23

energy ? You know how do I do that

1:06:25

? Sometimes it's literally like , okay , I'm going to do this response

1:06:27

to one person , I'm going to pin that comment

1:06:29

so that then , like people

1:06:31

like I'm just not going to respond to everyone

1:06:34

, yeah you know , or I might just like respond

1:06:36

and be like see pinned comment . You know

1:06:38

, as a way to be like my

1:06:40

time and energy is precious . I

1:06:42

can't I can't respond to every

1:06:45

person who is going to like misread

1:06:47

me or misunderstand . I'm also trying

1:06:49

to be like this . For me , anyways , my page is very

1:06:51

much about public education , so if there are

1:06:54

like learning opportunities there , I

1:06:56

want to also , like you know , take advantage

1:06:58

of that . And yeah

1:07:01

, so it's like a balancing

1:07:03

act , but yeah , it is

1:07:06

how some people are going to show up . Like

1:07:08

sometimes I'll make posts that like do not provoke

1:07:10

people at all . But also , if

1:07:13

I am interested in like having

1:07:15

critical conversations which I am

1:07:17

, and I just have had to accept

1:07:19

that like some people might

1:07:22

be unhappy with like what

1:07:24

I'm offering and we might just have

1:07:26

to agree to disagree , I wish you well

1:07:29

. Yeah , you know , and

1:07:32

I'm going to disengage from this conversation

1:07:34

.

1:07:34

Yeah , sometimes that's what you have to do

1:07:37

, okay , so , margo

1:07:39

, this has been really incredible

1:07:41

. Thank you so much . I really enjoyed

1:07:43

this conversation with you . I would like

1:07:45

to end on a more uplifting

1:07:48

note

1:07:50

, which is just that you know

1:07:52

, with all of the

1:07:55

things that you have going on

1:07:57

personal life , health life

1:07:59

, work life , school life , all

1:08:01

of the things how do you take

1:08:03

care of yourself ? What does self-care

1:08:05

look like for you ? What does community care look

1:08:08

like for you ? I would love to know

1:08:10

.

1:08:10

Yeah , it looks like

1:08:12

giving myself permission

1:08:15

to sleep in , if I

1:08:17

am able to . This morning

1:08:20

I woke up at 10 am and then stayed in bed

1:08:22

until 11 because one of my cats was literally

1:08:24

in the nook of my arm and I was like

1:08:26

I just want to be

1:08:29

beside my cat right now . So

1:08:32

you know , it wasn't until like 11 when I felt like

1:08:34

all right , I need to like have coffee and get dressed

1:08:36

before this , like you know , podcast interview that

1:08:38

like yeah , and I

1:08:40

know that like rest is not easily

1:08:42

accessible to so many people , but like

1:08:45

it is . I think

1:08:47

one of the benefits to to being my

1:08:49

own boss is that

1:08:51

I can work in a way that's manageable

1:08:53

for , like my body mind needs

1:08:56

. Yeah , I want to . I watch a lot

1:08:58

of television and it's so funny because

1:09:00

I grew up in a house that like television dominated

1:09:03

and when I first moved out , I didn't have a

1:09:05

TV . I like you know this was back when , like , if you like wanted to like watch a show , you either had

1:09:07

to have cable or like if you like wanted to like

1:09:09

watch a show , you either had to have cable or

1:09:11

like go to the video store and rent DVDs

1:09:15

. I'm like almost 40 . So you know

1:09:17

it's a different era . Yeah

1:09:19

, giving myself permission to just binge watch

1:09:21

television . So you

1:09:23

know , like that's like one side of it and I think

1:09:26

that , like you know , binging

1:09:28

tv often gets like a bad reputation

1:09:30

and I just want to like affirm

1:09:32

that , like sometimes I just

1:09:34

really need to turn my brain off and just be , entertained

1:09:38

and that

1:09:40

you know Netflix will be like give you know the

1:09:42

screen will freeze and they'll be like are you still watching

1:09:44

?

1:09:44

do you want to ask you again ?

1:09:46

yes , I am still watching

1:09:49

episodes later of

1:09:51

Grey's Anatomy or whatever . So

1:09:55

that's , like you know , one sort of like

1:09:57

arena . I also like my

1:10:00

one of my besties who's a somatic practitioner

1:10:02

. She actually made a deck of like cards

1:10:04

and that had different like prompts

1:10:07

, and one of the cards has

1:10:09

this question that I always think

1:10:11

about and it's what's the gentlest

1:10:13

thing I could do right now . Yeah

1:10:16

, and that , for me , is such

1:10:18

an anchoring question . Yeah

1:10:20

, so when I really need some like self care

1:10:22

, I'm just like okay , sometimes that looks like canceling

1:10:25

plans because I actually just need to stay

1:10:27

home . Sometimes

1:10:29

that looks like bringing out my

1:10:31

like cart of all of my like collage materials

1:10:34

and like just like having a collage session

1:10:36

on my living room floor

1:10:39

. Other times it looks like ordering

1:10:41

food , because making food

1:10:43

feels too tiring . Or

1:10:45

it looks like actually making an elaborate

1:10:47

meal because that , like you know

1:10:49

, or it looks like actually making an elaborate meal , because that like you know

1:10:52

, so meditative for me . So that's , like you know , like the self-care

1:10:54

kind of arena .

1:11:01

And then community care .

1:11:02

It's like honestly . It's like usually

1:11:04

like calling my besties . You know they both

1:11:06

live in Canada , so

1:11:11

you know I don't get to have like daily , you know weekly hangs with them , yeah . So

1:11:14

you know it's like , yeah , we have like a voice note thread on WhatsApp

1:11:16

and so sometimes it's just like sending

1:11:18

voice notes and just being like how are you all doing

1:11:20

? Like here's an update from my day , you

1:11:23

know , or asking for support . You

1:11:25

know , sometimes it's like and I'm really

1:11:27

excited for more ways of practicing like community care with this . Like

1:11:30

you know it's like and I'm really excited for more ways of practicing like community care with this , like you know

1:11:32

, discord space , because

1:11:34

I think it will be like you

1:11:36

know , one of one of the , the

1:11:38

folks that I have helping with that space

1:11:40

. You know it's like , yeah , maybe really cool to

1:11:42

like have like a movie night , you know

1:11:44

, and then it's just like you know , people just

1:11:46

show up and we just watch this movie digitally

1:11:49

all together , as

1:11:51

like that , just like sharing

1:11:53

space , even virtually , like that's

1:11:56

community care . And then I guess the

1:11:58

last thing you know I'll say is like so

1:12:00

much of community care for me is activism

1:12:02

and it's like

1:12:04

you know I'm involved with the

1:12:07

Students for Justice in Palestine

1:12:09

group at CalArts and

1:12:12

so that's like one piece of community care

1:12:14

. You know that

1:12:16

nourishes me but is also nourishing the community

1:12:19

. You know I'm working

1:12:21

on a t-shirt collab

1:12:23

with someone who I did like a meme collab

1:12:26

with , and like proceeds , like profits

1:12:28

from that are going to go to just like supporting

1:12:30

families who are trying to get

1:12:32

out of Palestine . So I just think that there's so

1:12:34

many , especially right now , opportunities

1:12:37

for folks to be doing community

1:12:39

care there is . Is there a student encampment

1:12:42

, like near where you

1:12:44

live ? Yeah , and you like find

1:12:47

that you know that that SJP chapter

1:12:49

and see , like , like , what kinds of things they need

1:12:51

. You know , can you bring them food ? Can you send

1:12:53

them like a venmo donation so that they

1:12:55

can get , you know

1:12:57

, whatever it is they're needing ? Can you just like

1:12:59

show up and like share space

1:13:01

, like with them , be like another body

1:13:04

? And , yeah , I think that there's also lots of things

1:13:06

we can be doing digitally that

1:13:08

you know are just like

1:13:10

so , so powerful and so nourishing

1:13:12

to me . Yeah , what a gift

1:13:14

it is to be able to like do

1:13:17

mutual aid to . You

1:13:19

know , practice community care , um

1:13:23

, and get creative with each other on what

1:13:25

it looks like to to support

1:13:27

yeah , to support one another

1:13:30

.

1:13:30

Yeah , all of that was just

1:13:32

so incredible and so beautiful , like heavy

1:13:35

on the activism

1:13:37

and showing up in whatever

1:13:39

ways folks can to support

1:13:42

all of the things that social

1:13:44

media has made so accessible to us . Yes

1:13:46

, because we can see constantly

1:13:49

and connecting

1:13:51

with community and with friends and

1:13:53

binging shows . That's me . I've

1:13:56

been re-watching an old

1:13:58

show for months . There are seasons

1:14:00

upon seasons . Yeah , oh my gosh

1:14:02

, it's so comforting

1:14:04

. It is predictable too . Yes

1:14:07

, which means yeah , absolutely yeah

1:14:09

. So I think that's great . And

1:14:11

even just talking about like , because

1:14:14

I mentioned on here before , I don't always like to cook

1:14:16

, so if it's getting the takeout , it's getting the

1:14:18

takeout , but ironically , I've cooked

1:14:20

the last like two days and that's felt

1:14:22

really good too . So I'm just like

1:14:24

you know , leaning into what you

1:14:26

need and giving it to yourself when

1:14:29

you can and showing

1:14:31

up for yourself and others as you can . So I think

1:14:33

that's really beautiful . Thank you so

1:14:35

much , margo . This is incredible

1:14:37

and I loved having

1:14:39

you on . I loved our conversation . Thank you

1:14:41

for showing up so vulnerably and sharing

1:14:43

so much of yourself and your work with me

1:14:45

and with my audience . I really appreciate

1:14:47

that .

1:14:48

Well , thank you so much , Aaliyah , for having me

1:14:50

. It's so great to chat and for , yeah

1:14:53

, just like that , I just feel so nourished by this

1:14:55

conversation .

1:14:56

Oh , thank you , that feels really

1:14:58

, hi friends

1:15:00

, what an incredible episode

1:15:03

with Margo . Margo

1:15:05

, I am so grateful and thankful

1:15:07

that you were able to join

1:15:09

me on this episode and to be in conversation

1:15:12

. It was wonderful . Thank you For

1:15:14

folks listening . I hope you were able

1:15:16

to take something away from this conversation

1:15:19

. I hope you feel inspired

1:15:21

in the work that you're doing as

1:15:23

a creative , as a solopreneur , as

1:15:25

an entrepreneur , and I

1:15:28

hope that you

1:15:30

are able to have

1:15:32

something that you can take with you , something

1:15:34

that you might want to share with others in your

1:15:36

network . And thank you so much for tuning

1:15:39

in today . You can find

1:15:41

more from Margo by

1:15:43

visiting their Instagram page

1:15:46

, softcore trauma . So that's

1:15:48

softcore underscore trauma

1:15:50

where you can find more of those incredible

1:15:52

memes and trauma work that

1:15:55

Margot is providing to the world . They

1:15:58

also have a link tree linked

1:16:00

in their bio on that page

1:16:02

that links to a number of other

1:16:04

offerings , including their

1:16:06

website , margotfeldmancom

1:16:10

, and you can visit

1:16:12

their website to learn more

1:16:14

about their offerings , their workshops , writings

1:16:16

and so many other incredible things

1:16:19

at margolfeldmancom

1:16:21

. And all of these great things will

1:16:23

be linked in the show notes below . So

1:16:25

thank you so much for tuning into another

1:16:27

episode of the Prolific Hub podcast

1:16:29

and , if this resonated with

1:16:31

you . Send a text to the

1:16:34

show . Let me know what you thought . Send

1:16:36

in a voice note . I would love

1:16:38

to share more of

1:16:40

just your thoughts and your

1:16:43

feedback with other listeners

1:16:45

and our audience , and

1:16:47

I will catch you here on the next episode

1:16:49

next week . Thank you so much for tuning in

1:16:51

, friends , until soon .