2:00

of Trevor Dealey. Hello

2:34

everybody and welcome to this episode of the

2:36

Prosecutors. I'm Brett

2:38

and I'm joined as always

2:40

by my indefatigable co-host,

2:43

Alice. Hi Brett. You

2:46

know, Hope Springs Eternal. I wish

2:48

that were me. It's totally you. But

2:50

I'm so fatigable all the time.

2:52

You are not fatigable. You're indefagatable

2:55

much like the glorious

2:58

Irish revolutionaries who won their independence.

3:00

That's so nice. Well, so, you know,

3:02

this is kind of a later night. I mean, it's pretty

3:04

on par with when we normally record. But

3:06

like every time I start recording, I'm like, you

3:08

can do it, Alice. I like have to pep talk

3:11

myself into it. Not because I don't love talking to you, but

3:13

because I am fatigued.

3:15

Yeah.

3:18

Yeah. That's okay. That's

3:21

what the whiskey's for. The whiskey will pep you up. Dude,

3:23

that whiskey will put this fatigued

3:25

Alice straight to bed. Well,

3:27

that's a good point, too. Straight to bed. It

3:30

always has one of two effects, right? Either

3:32

it wakes you up or it puts you to sleep.

3:35

If

3:35

I smell it, it'll wake

3:38

me up. If I drink it, I'll go straight to night night. But

3:42

with all that said, okay, we can't be tired

3:44

today because we have hit theories

3:46

on the Trevor Dealey case. And

3:49

I'm excited to talk about these

3:51

theories. But really, Brett, I know we like touted

3:53

your theory last time so much that I'm hoping

3:56

we get to at least introduce your theory because

3:59

because you guys are about to.

3:59

get like Professor Brett in history class,

4:02

which everybody loves it. I don't know

4:04

if I can do an entire episode

4:06

on my theory, so I think it's best if we can get

4:08

to it today, but we'll see, because we don't rush anything.

4:11

No

4:14

one has ever called us short-winded. It's true.

4:17

It's true. We've

4:19

only had one episode, but that's a testament

4:21

to how little actual evidence

4:24

there really is in this case. And as we go through the theories,

4:26

I think you're going to see that. To recap

4:28

for those of you who might have forgotten,

4:31

Trevor Deeley, ordinary young guy working

4:34

at a bank. He's doing IT work.

4:36

It's close to Christmas time. They're having the Christmas party.

4:39

He goes out to the Christmas party, has

4:41

a lot to drink, great time with his friends.

4:43

Everything seems fine.

4:45

Very late at night. He starts walking home, but

4:47

there's a cab strike and he lives more than a mile

4:50

away and it's pouring down rain. So he decides,

4:52

I'm going to go get an umbrella at

4:55

the office. And as he heads that way,

4:57

suddenly into the camera

5:00

frame is the man in black, the

5:02

sort of mysterious person who's dressed all in

5:04

black, standing out in the rain

5:06

without an umbrella, almost seemingly

5:09

waiting for someone. He

5:11

talks to Trevor as he arrives at

5:13

the back gate of where he works,

5:16

which is a bank of sorts,

5:19

the Bank of Ireland Asset

5:21

Management Company.

5:23

He sort of hangs around outside

5:26

while Trevor goes inside, but Trevor spends, you know,

5:28

30 minutes. He sees a friend, has some coffee. At

5:31

some point, the man in black sort of walks away.

5:33

We then catch Trevor leaving. He's heading

5:35

in the direction of his home. He's caught by another

5:38

camera on a bank

5:40

and he passes by and a few seconds

5:43

later comes a man

5:45

in black, whether it's the man in black,

5:47

it's hard to say, but

5:49

another person dressed all in black

5:51

who seems to be following Trevor

5:54

according to sort of things you read and whether

5:56

or not this is true or not, the Garda, which

5:58

is the police in Ireland. have

6:00

been able to enhance that second video

6:02

some and apparently

6:05

the enhanced video, it appears even more

6:07

as though this is the same person. That's an important

6:09

fact because if it is the same person, awful

6:12

coincidental that you see

6:14

them two different times in two different places

6:17

near Trevor and very

6:19

shortly after he leaves that camera, it

6:21

appears he disappears because he's

6:24

never viewed on any other camera. Obviously

6:26

there are a lot more CCTV cameras

6:28

in Dublin today than there were at the time, but

6:30

there were a lot then as evidenced

6:33

by the fact he was caught on three different cameras,

6:35

but he's not caught on any more. And

6:37

I think most people believe that some point after he

6:39

leaves that third camera, he

6:41

disappears either due

6:43

to accident or due

6:46

to some sort of homicide or

6:48

some sort of kidnapping.

6:49

And we're going to go through all those theories and

6:51

see if we can come to a conclusion on

6:55

what happened here. And we will start

6:57

with a theory that I think is in some ways

7:00

the most popular and it's

7:02

one that we've talked about before. And it's one that

7:04

always comes up whenever anyone disappears

7:07

near a body of water. And that's the very

7:09

simple and straightforward theory that Trevor

7:12

fell into the river.

7:14

Now we know for a fact that Trevor

7:17

did cross the river. He did cross a

7:19

bridge and he may have crossed more than one.

7:22

Is it possible that in his sort of drunken

7:24

state, he just fell

7:27

in. If you've seen the video

7:29

of him passing the bank,

7:31

he is not walking in a straight line.

7:33

Now he's not stumbling, falling down drunk,

7:36

but he's definitely walking like someone who's had

7:38

a lot to drink. Someone who's been drinking for the better

7:40

part of eight hours at this point. He's

7:43

weaving sort of back and forth. Is

7:45

it possible that at some point

7:47

he weaves over the side of a bridge? I

7:50

guess it's possible though. Honestly,

7:52

it seems

7:53

unlikely. Nothing of Trevor's

7:56

was ever found, including his

7:58

rather large umbrella.

7:59

This is one of the things. It's one thing to say that

8:02

maybe his body would have disappeared, but

8:04

the umbrella is this huge thing. It

8:06

was the bank of Ireland branded

8:08

umbrella. There was a big search

8:11

for Trevor. You would think that

8:13

would have been found. The guard did an extensive

8:15

search of the river and surrounding

8:17

canals. They found

8:20

nothing and they have a pretty good

8:22

diving team. And that diving team

8:24

was basically unequivocal that if

8:26

he had been in the river, they would have found him. There's

8:29

always a possibility that

8:30

that's not true. I don't think you

8:32

can ever rule this kind of theory out completely,

8:36

but they didn't find any evidence of him. There's

8:38

also Trevor's phone. Trevor's phone continued

8:40

to ring, which indicates to some

8:42

that it was not underwater. This is always controversial.

8:45

Some people believe in some people will say,

8:47

and even some people in technology will say that

8:49

if a phone is submerged underwater, it

8:51

kills the phone, particularly one in 2000. And

8:54

from that point forward, the phone wouldn't ring. Any

8:56

calls would go straight to voicemail. We know that Trevor's

8:58

phone continued to ring into the

9:01

next day, which seems to indicate it was

9:03

not underwater.

9:05

People often ended up in this river. This is a river

9:07

that, that people drown in unfortunately,

9:09

and they also tend to be found. It

9:12

is a good ways from Dublin to

9:14

the sea and the river itself is rather docile.

9:17

I mean, this is, this is not a river. You're going

9:19

to be swept down. This is the kind of river where a body

9:22

is going to wash up,

9:23

but that didn't happen. And it just,

9:25

it just is the case that people do not

9:27

tend to fall into the river in Dublin and

9:30

never be found again. So if that's what happened

9:32

to Trevor, this case is

9:34

remarkable in its sort of unremarkable.

9:37

It is remarkable that Trevor could have died

9:40

and disappeared like that because it

9:42

just doesn't happen.

9:43

Yeah. And like Brett said, if he's weaving,

9:45

he's clearly not totally sober. But remember

9:48

he was inside his office building for

9:51

at least half an hour and had a cup of coffee and

9:53

had a whole conversation with somebody, you know,

9:55

who didn't indicate that he was a blackout

9:58

drunk or anything like that. So even.

9:59

Even if he wasn't completely sober, he wasn't

10:02

at a point where he

10:04

absolutely could not have walked

10:06

across that bridge without falling over.

10:08

And so that's something to keep in mind too. It

10:11

had been, he'd been drinking for a long time that night,

10:13

but he'd also had a sobering coffee

10:16

and kind of been in the dry with a

10:18

coworker talking for some time

10:21

before he made this trip across the

10:23

river. And that umbrella, that umbrella really

10:25

gets me bright because I think of all the pieces of an

10:27

umbrella, how it's difficult to make an umbrella

10:30

just kind of disappear in the water. It's made

10:32

of metal, it's large, it tends to

10:34

float, especially if something breaks

10:37

on it, it'll kind of pop open, making

10:39

it even larger than its original size.

10:42

Those are, and it's a very distinctive

10:44

looking umbrella that it wouldn't necessarily

10:47

just be passed over as

10:49

would say maybe a shoe or a wallet,

10:51

something like that. So this in

10:54

some ways is Occam's razor, right? Because

10:56

there's a river right there and oftentimes

10:58

with a lot of drinking and a river, the first

11:01

and most obvious answer is not foul play,

11:04

but

11:04

rather a tragic accident.

11:07

But I don't know, it's hard not to

11:09

find a single trace in the canal. This

11:11

isn't like a river that flowed into the ocean. Eventually,

11:15

eventually it went to the ocean, but it took some time and

11:17

the garda was on it in terms of searching pretty

11:20

quickly. Now that leads us to

11:22

another also popular theory

11:24

then, and that's that Trevor disappeared

11:27

on his own. Now

11:29

it's always a possibility suggested in these

11:31

types of cases, but here it really does

11:33

seem unlikely. There's

11:36

no evidence of a disappearance and there's

11:38

no indication that Trevor wasn't a place

11:40

emotionally or psychologically

11:43

where he'd want to disappear. He had

11:45

taken no steps to

11:48

start this new life. So we've talked

11:50

about what you look for. You look to see

11:52

if someone's emptied their accounts, sold

11:54

their possessions to prepare for

11:56

a new life. There's none of that here. He

11:59

had

11:59

taken no steps.

11:59

no money out of his account, and nothing

12:02

was missing from his apartment. It seems like he

12:04

never went back into the apartment at

12:06

all. So not a change of clothes, not,

12:09

you know, some way to get around, not

12:11

passports, nothing like that. And

12:13

so of course people can disappear

12:16

just by walking out of their own lives, but

12:19

it's really hard to start your life completely

12:21

anew without anything to help you start that

12:23

next life. And it doesn't seem

12:25

like he took any steps here to do

12:28

that. So another potential

12:29

option then is

12:32

that Trevor had an argument

12:34

while he had been drinking that night out,

12:37

either maybe at the pub where he was pre-gaming

12:40

or at the club, or

12:42

he'd been drinking for many hours. You know, obviously

12:44

with drinking, sometimes heightened emotions come, and maybe

12:47

he got out of sorts with

12:49

someone and someone was angry at him and wanted

12:51

revenge. This can't be ruled out. People

12:54

can get bad temper drinking and

12:56

fights happen, especially after eight plus

12:58

hours of drinking in a kind of a festive

13:01

mood. However, Trevor

13:03

wasn't alone. He wasn't just drinking by himself. Remember

13:06

he was with colleagues all night

13:08

before, both before he went to the party

13:10

and at the party, and he was with a coworker,

13:13

you know, once he got to his office building. And

13:16

there was seemingly no mention of a fight

13:18

or even an argument by any of these

13:20

colleagues who were with him at any

13:22

point throughout the night. Also, that level

13:26

of response where someone wants such revenge that they're

13:28

going to kidnap or murder, Trevor

13:30

seems just really extreme

13:33

because we don't see anything

13:35

on CCTV where it would indicate

13:37

that there's, you know, high emotions running. He's not,

13:39

he doesn't seem flustered. He doesn't

13:42

seem to be in a state of anger. The

13:45

person in black who he speaks to very

13:47

briefly, that doesn't seem to be a heated

13:49

conversation right there. We see him

13:52

coming in and out of the party, you know, we

13:54

go to the ATM, we don't see anyone

13:55

follow him. He doesn't seem frustrated at

13:57

the ATM as he's getting money. And none

13:59

of- his body language suggests that this

14:02

is a night full of high emotions.

14:04

But on the other hand, maybe

14:06

he

14:07

didn't know he had anchored someone so

14:09

much. Maybe he'd just been seen flirting with

14:11

the wrong girl or something like

14:14

that, where he didn't even realize he was offending

14:16

someone. And so it could be that

14:18

we don't see any behavioral changes

14:20

in him throughout the night and no one around

14:22

him recognizes that anyone else is mad at him because

14:25

the person he has offended is seething

14:28

over something that Trevor is just completely

14:30

oblivious to. Now, if

14:32

the offended person, say maybe a boyfriend

14:34

or a husband, happened to be in

14:37

a

14:37

gang or,

14:39

you know, kind of with a rougher

14:41

crowd, they could have had the means and contacts

14:43

to get back at Trevor. The problem with this

14:45

is the same as many of the

14:47

theories. If there was a hit out on Trevor

14:50

for some revenge, why wasn't his body found?

14:52

Especially if it's a random attack. You know, hiding

14:55

a body is almost as dangerous as

14:57

killing someone. And most criminologists

15:00

agree that hiding a body tends to indicate

15:02

either a more organized attack or

15:05

someone who knew the victim, which

15:07

does not fit with this theory

15:09

of someone who just was angry

15:11

about some kind of random flirtation or

15:13

something that Trevor did that he was unaware

15:16

of. The timing also doesn't seem

15:18

right. It seems hard to believe that he

15:20

would get into an argument with someone.

15:22

And then what? They kind of followed him at

15:24

a distance while he went to the bank

15:26

and then waited off camera

15:29

until he left and then

15:31

followed him again. I guess you would have to assume that the

15:33

second man in black might be this person

15:36

and that the first man in black is a complete

15:38

random person. I don't know. It just doesn't.

15:41

It feels like if that's what happened, he

15:43

never would have made it to the bank. It seems like

15:45

somebody would have attacked him on

15:47

his way to work, not after

15:50

he got there and hung out for 30 minutes

15:52

and got his umbrella and left to me. In

15:55

addition to all the other problems you've identified, I just,

15:57

it feels, it just feels really unlikely

15:59

that.

15:59

that this is some random, heat of

16:02

the moment, angry person that he offended

16:04

that night. Yes, and it seems like it would

16:06

be, if this were like a targeted

16:08

attack by a random person

16:11

because they were an angered boyfriend

16:13

or husband, it would take some time to mobilize

16:16

because Trevor's not known to them.

16:18

Right, exactly, exactly. I

16:20

don't know. I think some

16:22

of the other criminal possibilities we're

16:24

going to discuss I think are a little bit more likely. One

16:26

of those, in the theory that some people suggest, is

16:29

that Trevor had some sort of drug debt and

16:31

was on the wrong side of a gang.

16:34

At that time,

16:35

even now, and everybody knows this, drugs

16:38

and especially cocaine, very commonplace

16:40

in white collar businesses. Apparently

16:42

this was something that was very common in Dublin's

16:45

south inner city at the time.

16:48

You got a big corporate party. You don't have

16:50

to have

16:50

watched a lot of American

16:53

Psycho to know that the

16:55

corporate party scene often involves

16:59

drugs. It's possible that Trevor

17:01

somehow got involved with some sort of drug dealer.

17:03

The problem is, it's never really been confirmed

17:06

that Trevor was into drugs

17:08

or that that was the kind of thing he would

17:11

have been involved in. Drug

17:13

dealers, they were common around that area.

17:15

It wouldn't have been hard to find somebody.

17:18

This was before you had cell phones and

17:21

the internet. That's

17:24

a possibility, but

17:26

not only did people say that

17:28

Trevor wasn't into this kind of thing, his

17:30

bank account doesn't really show it. Trevor

17:32

wasn't running out of money. There was no extreme

17:35

or regular spending that you would expect

17:37

if somebody had a big drug habit

17:39

and a big drug debt.

17:42

While this idea of sort of an organized

17:45

gang that decided Trevor had

17:47

to go and pick this night,

17:50

while it seems more attractive than

17:52

the random attack, it also seems like

17:54

it's pretty much full of holes. If Trevor had

17:56

any kind of debt, it wouldn't have been very big and

17:59

killing someone over

17:59

small drug debt. Pretty dumb

18:02

because number one is dangerous. Number two, you don't ever

18:04

get paid.

18:05

Once again, why hide his body? If you're

18:07

killing him over this, look, drug

18:10

dealers, people who kill people over drugs,

18:12

they don't hide the body.

18:13

They kill somebody in sort of a random attack.

18:16

The body's found in the street. The police never figure

18:18

it out

18:19

and they move on with their lives. The idea

18:21

that they would kill Trevor and then spirit him away

18:24

is pretty hard to believe.

18:27

Now police,

18:28

they did not dismiss this idea out

18:31

of hand. They actually spent a lot of time working

18:33

through the prison system in Ireland,

18:35

talking to people in prison, talking to their informants,

18:38

trying to find out some information about

18:40

what had happened to Trevor. And in fact,

18:42

in 2017, they did have an informant who

18:45

claimed that Trevor had been murdered by

18:47

a gang as a result of some sort of drug deal

18:50

gone wrong and his body was buried in a

18:52

field. The police actually searched that field.

18:54

They didn't find anything related to Trevor, though they didn't find

18:57

drugs and a gun. So it seems like the

18:58

informant had some information,

19:01

but maybe not the right information. We've talked about informants

19:03

before. Oftentimes their information

19:05

is incomplete, if not wrong, altogether. And

19:08

it seems like this informant didn't really know what they were

19:10

talking about.

19:10

And we've talked about this before too.

19:12

They were like, well, why would the informant

19:15

give him information about Trevor, especially if it leads

19:17

to, you know, guns and drugs? Sometimes

19:19

you're just bored in prison or you want

19:22

to work off some time so you provide information

19:24

or maybe they just heard it through the grapevine themselves because

19:27

people talk in prison. So this

19:29

type of information we've talked about so

19:32

much. It's hard to trust informants,

19:34

especially if they have something to get out of it, like maybe

19:37

good, you know, good time served if they are able to

19:39

help the police or just out of sheer

19:41

boredom, you know, they hear things and they want

19:43

to pass it along because everyone wants to appear

19:46

like they have helpful information. So

19:48

it does sound like this person probably had heard of a field

19:50

before and why not? Just

19:52

like we're talking about this as a theory, Trevor

19:55

could have been, you know, murdered by a gang.

19:57

That happens and this gang probably

19:59

did.

19:59

murder people, just maybe not Trevor. Okay,

20:02

more theories.

20:04

We're going to turn through these, and none

20:06

of these seem satisfying yet. And if you're not satisfied,

20:08

stick around because I agree. And

20:10

part of this is it's so unsatisfying because there's

20:13

been nothing found of Trevor

20:15

at all. His body, his possessions, nothing.

20:18

And that's why this is such a mind boggling case.

20:21

But stick with us. We'll keep going through some theories

20:23

with you to explore all the possibilities.

20:25

So another theory is that Trevor had been visiting prostitutes

20:28

in the nearby illicit brothels. Because

20:30

remember that area of town we talked about, there

20:33

were sex workers. There were also,

20:35

you could buy drugs in this area. It wasn't

20:37

terribly dangerous, but it was not maybe the

20:40

best place to be walking at night. So

20:43

it is possible that he could have

20:45

been hiring a sex worker that

20:47

night and had gotten into some trouble

20:50

with the pimps who obviously keep

20:52

control of the books and the money. And

20:54

you do not want to get on the wrong side

20:57

of these guys. Now that

20:59

area by the canal was known as a hub

21:01

for the illegal sex trade.

21:04

And Trevor was a young man. He

21:06

had no girlfriend. Remember

21:08

that Alaska trip we talked about? Whether

21:10

that factors into what's going on here at all, I

21:12

think it at least shines some light

21:15

on some difficulties that Trevor had in connecting

21:17

with women. He clearly misread

21:20

that entire situation. He took

21:22

a cross world trip

21:24

to go visit this woman who did

21:27

not want him there at all. And

21:29

he did not woo her while he was

21:32

in Alaska. So at least in

21:34

recent history, he did not have the best

21:36

luck with connecting with women. And

21:38

we know that Trevor worked in the area and

21:40

he had a well paying job, which

21:43

meant that he could afford to hire a woman

21:45

to have sex with if that's what he wanted. It's

21:48

possible that he had visited prostitutes and local

21:50

brothels on occasion and

21:53

had either witnessed something or done something

21:56

that led to those brothels

21:58

or the pimps targeting him.

23:59

clients back then.

24:01

Trevor was working in the IT section in a small

24:04

team. So even though normally you might think

24:06

a 22 year old guy, very entry

24:08

level type guy, how is he going to have access

24:10

to this kind of information? Because he's in IT,

24:13

he has access to all kinds of information and perhaps

24:16

he found evidence of some sort of wrongdoing

24:18

either by a client or

24:20

by some senior bank managers.

24:23

And in order to prevent him

24:25

from blowing the whistle, he may have been permanently

24:27

silenced. The fact that it all happened on a work

24:30

night out and that it revolved

24:31

around Trevor's workplace does

24:33

suggest a link. This is kind of like the ghost theory.

24:36

Did you ever watch Ghost Alice? The movie?

24:38

Of course. Wonderful movie.

24:40

Terrific movie. It was a little bit before

24:43

my time. I'm not going to talk about how you're older than me,

24:45

but I definitely did watch it.

24:47

Well, for those of you who've seen it and remember

24:49

it, this is kind of the ghost theory where you have a guy who

24:52

has some information. He doesn't even realize what he has,

24:55

but because of that, he is silenced.

24:58

But the problem with this is it

25:00

makes for a good Hollywood movie, but do we really

25:02

have any evidence of it? No, we don't.

25:04

The level of collusion you would need

25:07

in keeping this a secret for this

25:09

long really stretches the imagination

25:12

and no wrongdoing has ever been uncovered

25:14

despite all the scrutiny surrounding the circumstances

25:16

of Trevor's death. If people intended for this

25:19

to be a quiet murder, that's not what it was.

25:21

It became incredibly famous in Ireland

25:23

and was really looked into with a lot of details.

25:26

So you would think

25:27

even if you did this to cover something up, you might accidentally

25:30

end up revealing

25:31

what you were doing and that has never happened.

25:33

And you know, we're talking about the Bank of Ireland.

25:35

This isn't some like, you know, small

25:38

family owned business with a couple of

25:40

employees. This is like a huge

25:42

bank and Trevor, as

25:45

good of an employee as he is, he is. He's

25:48

not like the executive team. You know, he's

25:50

he's not the CEO, the COO. He's

25:52

like he's relatively young. He's a young

25:54

guy in his 20s working a good job,

25:56

but like

25:57

relatively speaking, lower on the totem

25:59

pole. It kind of stretches the imagination

26:01

to think that someone at his level would

26:04

have such important information

26:06

that he would have to be murdered to be kept

26:08

silent. So what

26:10

other theories are there? Because you

26:13

cold water prosecutors keep putting theories out there

26:15

and basically throwing them

26:17

out as soon as we talk about them. Okay,

26:19

we'll talk about another one then. Maybe Trevor

26:22

was kidnapped as a bank employee by

26:24

a criminal gang or paramilitary

26:26

group to extract some code or

26:29

ransom, something to that effect,

26:31

but it all went wrong.

26:33

He wasn't supposed to be killed. He was just supposed to be kind

26:35

of a pawn in a greater scheme of

26:38

bank fraud, but he was accidentally

26:40

killed. Now, some people often dismiss

26:42

the idea of a robbery because they

26:45

affirm that it wasn't a bank full of money,

26:47

but this is a bank asset management

26:50

center. People underestimate

26:52

the potential value of the documents

26:54

or records that could have been in the building that

26:56

night, even if it's not what you traditionally

26:59

think of for a bank to have like

27:01

a vault where you spin the big, you know,

27:03

locked wheel and you open it and it's just filled

27:05

with gold coins and money. Might not

27:07

be that, but it has a lot of documents

27:10

that can be very valuable if in the wrong

27:12

hands. So it's possible that

27:14

Trevor had, again, accidentally stumbled

27:16

across

27:17

some sort of heist

27:19

or other big kind of Ocean's

27:22

Eleven type fraud. And

27:24

he was taken out,

27:26

killed, so that he wouldn't alert or

27:28

identify anyone who was part of this

27:30

heist. Trevor had possibly turned

27:32

up at the wrong time and interrupted, say,

27:35

a stakeout. He went inside the gate after briefly

27:37

talking to that man in black and the man

27:39

in black had believed that what

27:41

Trevor was doing was going inside and alerting

27:44

Peter, the night security guard of the suspicious

27:46

presence of

27:47

this individual outside. Yet

27:51

when Trevor talked to his colleague

27:53

inside the office, remember when he was in there

27:55

having coffee with a colleague from about three thirty

27:57

six a.m. until four oh three a.m.

27:59

He displayed no anxiety

28:02

or fear at all. And he seemed to be

28:04

in a great mood, in fact. He

28:06

wasn't hurried or wanting to report

28:08

something. He just wanted to wait out the

28:11

rain and hang out because he

28:13

had no one to go home to. If Trevor had realized

28:15

something strange was going on, he surely would have

28:17

mentioned it

28:19

in that 30 minute span of time where he was

28:21

behind a locked gate where

28:23

there was security and there was no one

28:25

threatening his life or threatening

28:28

him to not report at that time. And if he'd really

28:31

realized that he was in danger or

28:33

something bad was happening, he could have actually

28:35

just stayed in the building, right? Like if he thought

28:38

that they were staking him out and they were gonna

28:40

wait for him, it's not like he ever had to leave the

28:42

office building. It was a possibility for him to stay

28:44

in there. The CCTV footage seems

28:46

to show that the man in black had been expecting

28:49

or maybe waiting for Trevor. He showed

28:52

very little interest in Trevor's two colleagues

28:54

who stopped briefly by the gate at 3.37 AM. Those

28:57

two colleagues seemed to be pretty drunk. They couldn't

28:59

figure out a way to get into the gate and

29:01

they kind of just left. But that man in black

29:03

didn't really talk to them, didn't pay them any attention

29:06

while Trevor was inside the

29:09

building. So it could be

29:11

that he was waiting for Trevor. It could be that if he

29:13

were that worried, maybe he should have talked to

29:15

the two colleagues, see when

29:17

Trevor was gonna come out. Was he calling someone in there?

29:19

What's going on? But that doesn't seem to be what happened.

29:22

I mean, it sounds really cool. And again, it sounds like

29:24

a movie, right? It sounds like really Oceans 11

29:26

or Oceans 12 or however many Oceans

29:28

there are at this point, which sounds like

29:30

a really cool mission and possible sort of thing. But

29:34

I don't know. And again, I don't know that Trevor

29:37

would necessarily be the person with

29:39

like the keys to the kingdom to be able to walk into

29:41

this intense heist and know what's going

29:44

on. Another theory is that Trevor

29:46

had actually arranged to meet the man in black

29:48

there for some reason. Maybe it was a sexual

29:50

motive. This theory is actually

29:52

more of a recent theory. Re-watching

29:55

the CCTV footage from camera one

29:58

again, Trevor's on the phone as he...

29:59

approaches and passes

30:02

the man in black who's also on

30:04

the phone. So it's possible that

30:06

they might've been on the phone with one another.

30:09

It's also possible that the man in black was

30:11

on the phone to an associate or

30:13

a collaborator and Trevor

30:17

in that first camera view doesn't seem at all

30:19

surprised or uncomfortable to

30:21

find this guy standing alone in kind

30:24

of an out of way place on a horribly

30:27

wet and windy night, who's dressed

30:29

from head to toe in black. Remember Trevor

30:31

kind of walks by and barely pays any attention to him. There

30:33

is a small gap in time, maybe 20

30:36

seconds between camera one and

30:38

two, where Trevor and the man in black

30:40

are present in a blind spot, but

30:42

out of view of both cameras. We

30:44

asked this earlier, were words exchanged then?

30:47

Who said what? What did they

30:49

talk about? They definitely talked

30:52

briefly after, as we see on

30:54

camera two.

30:55

Again, what were they talking about? Was it

30:57

something that was arranged? Maybe they expected

31:00

to see each other there. Maybe they didn't know that

31:02

was the person they were supposed to meet. But,

31:05

you know, when you like walk into a restaurant

31:07

and you're supposed to be meeting someone, but you may not know what they look

31:09

like, maybe you'll get on the phone and say,

31:11

Oh wait, are you that person? So

31:13

maybe they, that's why Trevor had walked by

31:15

the

31:16

man in black at first. Maybe he didn't know who he

31:18

was looking for and then confirmed it. And

31:20

if they were meeting, was it something

31:22

arranged?

31:24

And if so, was it for

31:26

something like a sexual motive? But

31:28

again, that seems really incredibly

31:31

contrived. There's no indication

31:33

that Trevor was attracted to men. But

31:35

then again, Ireland was still only emerging

31:37

from being a pretty conservative Catholic country

31:40

back in 2000. So it might

31:42

be the kind of thing that if you were attracted

31:45

to someone of the same sex, you might hide it. So maybe

31:48

Trevor was and didn't tell anyone, but the bigger

31:50

problem here is it's hard to believe that the

31:52

police wouldn't have located the man

31:54

in black if he was on the phone with Trevor because

31:56

they had cell phone data. So

31:59

while.

31:59

While at first looking at the camera views, it may seem

32:02

like they're on the phone with each other or something like

32:04

that, it would be hard for

32:06

the man in black to go completely unidentified

32:08

with all of Trevor's phone records.

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And that's one of the problems with this case is you

37:19

go

37:20

through these theories and we've gone through a lot of

37:22

them and none of them are satisfying.

37:24

None of them grab at you. You

37:27

don't feel like, I

37:29

mean, any of them are possible because there's

37:31

so little evidence, but none of them feel that

37:34

good. They don't seem to explain a lot

37:36

of the issues. I mean, probably the one that comes

37:38

to close is this is some sort of heist maybe.

37:41

And the man in black is there for some reason

37:44

related to that. But when you talk about these

37:46

theories, there's nothing in particular that

37:48

feels strong, which is why we

37:51

wanted to introduce

37:52

an alternative theory. One might

37:54

call it

37:56

a conspiracy theory. I don't know. I

37:58

don't know if I want to go that far. You may.

37:59

go that far. Alice may go that far. I'll

38:02

call it that. I think

38:04

we have to go back to something we mentioned in

38:06

the last episode.

38:08

The person who might be responsible for

38:11

Trevor's disappearance, in

38:13

a way, Bill Clinton. Bill

38:15

Clinton, President of the United States for

38:18

eight years in the 90s. Bill

38:20

Clinton, who we mentioned before, who was going

38:23

to Dublin.

38:24

What if he not only

38:26

inadvertently heard the investigation

38:28

because of the cleanup around the area of his trip,

38:31

which might have disposed of evidence or

38:34

destroyed valuable information. But what if it was

38:36

more than that? What

38:37

if the two things, Trevor's disappearance

38:40

and Bill Clinton's visit, were directly

38:43

connected? Not because of

38:46

something Bill Clinton did. What if whoever

38:48

was trying to gain entrance into Trevor's

38:50

building wasn't trying to

38:53

rob it?

38:54

What if they wanted a base from which

38:56

to launch

38:57

an assassination

38:59

attempt? Now, before you say this

39:01

is crazy, we're going to

39:05

lay the foundation for this and then come back

39:07

to this assassination attempt theory. I'm so excited for

39:09

this

39:09

history theory. This is such a good history

39:12

theory. To

39:16

understand why this is possible, you have to know something

39:18

about Irish history. The thing that I think

39:20

probably even most people in Ireland don't understand

39:23

is Americans are kind of obsessed with Ireland

39:25

in a weird way, in this weird sort

39:27

of strange way. In

39:30

college, I was obsessed with Irish

39:32

history. You guys know I was a history major and

39:34

I did mostly American history, but

39:36

I also did a lot of Irish history

39:38

and history of Britain in general,

39:41

became sort of fascinated by it. That's

39:43

sort of, I think, one of the reasons that this

39:46

just immediately jumped in mind for me, where maybe it doesn't

39:48

jump to mind for other people. But let's talk about Ireland.

39:51

Let's

39:51

put on our history hats and

39:53

talk about Ireland.

39:56

Ireland,

39:57

as you guys know, the entire...

40:00

Ireland, for a very long time, was part

40:02

of the United Kingdom. Today it's called the United

40:04

Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern

40:07

Ireland. Why is that? Why Northern

40:09

Ireland? Well, before 1916, you could drop

40:12

the Northern part. Ireland had been under

40:14

the control of England for several hundred years,

40:17

and despite attempted rebellions, seemingly

40:19

every generation, it appeared it might

40:22

always be. But

40:24

then in 1916, you had a small group of

40:26

students and poets who launched

40:29

an uprising on Easter,

40:32

Easter 1916.

40:34

They were quickly defeated as they

40:36

knew they would be. These

40:38

guys were idealist to

40:41

the utmost.

40:42

Patrick Pierce

40:44

was their leader, and he had this

40:46

theory that the only way that Irish

40:48

rebellion could ever happen is with

40:50

some sacrifice, and they were willing to sacrifice

40:52

themselves. And the British just

40:54

fell right into this trap because they arrested

40:57

these guys.

40:58

The uprising is defeated. It's kind of like Les

41:00

Mis, where

41:02

they're all thinking the people of Paris are going

41:04

to rise and then the sun rises and there's nobody

41:06

there and they all get killed. That's basically what happened.

41:09

But the leaders were arrested and they were

41:11

executed

41:12

in sort of a very

41:14

famous series of executions

41:17

in Kilmain in jail just outside of

41:19

Dublin.

41:20

And this was a really bad thing. This was a bad

41:22

decision by the British.

41:24

If they had just sort of

41:26

put these guys in prison and let them out after a little

41:28

while, things might've been fine, but they immediately

41:30

became heroes, martyrs across

41:32

all of Ireland. Britain's in the middle of

41:34

World War I,

41:36

so it's not like they can really deal with

41:38

a rebellion just across the

41:40

strait. And they were ill-equipped

41:42

to deal with this.

41:44

And this group of fighters, this ragtag

41:46

group of fighters called themselves the Irish Republican

41:49

Army.

41:49

And the fighting continued for

41:51

about five years. When the war in Europe

41:54

was over, however, Britain directed

41:57

more and more of its attention to the problems in Ireland.

41:59

And

42:00

the popular opinion in Ireland was that

42:02

the IRA was winning the war and

42:05

they were holding their own. But they

42:07

had some pretty serious problems at this point, including

42:09

with an ammunition supply and the simple fact

42:11

that Britain was able to send more and more men

42:14

to the island.

42:16

But the British were really sick of fighting. World

42:18

War I had been really rough. They lost a lot of people.

42:21

They wanted to make a deal.

42:23

The Irish couldn't keep fighting. The British didn't want to.

42:26

A deal was made and the consequences

42:29

are felt to this day.

42:32

26 of the predominantly Catholic counties were

42:34

granted independence. They became the free state

42:37

of Ireland. But six counties made up

42:39

mostly of Protestants would remain

42:41

part of Great Britain. Some pro-independence

42:44

forces felt betrayed and there was a civil

42:46

war that followed. And even

42:48

when that civil war ended, the IRA

42:51

continued to launch attacks. The IRA,

42:54

which had been the Irish Republican army, which

42:56

had been the Arm of Revolution, was eventually

42:58

banned in the Republic as a terrorist

43:00

group.

43:01

The IRA, the remains, they

43:04

name themselves the provisional IRA or the provosts.

43:07

And these attacks escalate in the 1960s,

43:09

leading to something called the troubles.

43:12

And for 30 years, there was an undeclared war

43:14

raging in Northern Ireland. Massive

43:17

bombings by both the IRA

43:19

and the Protestant Ulster Defense Association

43:22

were killing hundreds of people, including

43:24

Lord Mountbitten. We're going to talk more about him, who

43:26

was the last viceroy of India, by the

43:28

way, and the man for whom Prince William's latest

43:31

son was named, Inter

43:33

Bill Clinton.

43:34

So that's a lot of history. That's like 500

43:36

years of history in a few minutes. But essentially

43:39

it is hard for people to imagine

43:41

what Ireland was like in the 80s and 90s.

43:44

You talked about Belfast and Beirut

43:46

in the same breath. It was not

43:49

the lovely, wonderful place to visit.

43:51

It is now. It was an ongoing

43:54

war in a lot of ways. People were getting

43:56

blown up and killed. Tens of thousands of people were

43:58

killed. it was a real

44:00

problem. It's just hard to imagine that that

44:02

kind of situation was going on in Ireland

44:05

in the 80s and 90s, but it was. And

44:07

Bill Clinton, who had some Irish

44:10

ancestry, and as I said, Americans

44:12

are all obsessed with Ireland, he comes

44:14

in and he is going to change this.

44:17

So the most consequential action

44:19

of Clinton's presidency may be

44:21

his commitment to ending the troubles.

44:24

And his trip to Ireland in 1994 is

44:27

widely credited by forces on both

44:29

sides as beginning the peace process

44:32

that culminated in the Good Friday

44:34

Agreement on April 10th, 1998. The

44:38

paramilitary groups laid down their arms

44:40

and the troubles came to an end.

44:44

It's really difficult to understate

44:46

Clinton's contribution here, and he became

44:48

close to the leaders of Sinn Féin and the IRA.

44:51

When Martin McInnes, the former commander

44:54

of the IRA, died in 2017, Clinton spoke at his funeral

44:59

in Derry. In an 11 minute

45:02

eulogy, Clinton compared McInnes

45:05

to Nelson Mandela. And when

45:08

it was over, Clinton, I

45:10

mean, just to emphasize the complexity

45:12

of all of this, the queen sent a message

45:14

of condolence to McInnes' widow,

45:17

and she had famously

45:19

shook hands with McInnes in 2012.

45:24

Lord Lewis Mountbatten, who

45:26

we mentioned earlier, was the queen's cousin,

45:29

and he'd been the first

45:31

sea lord, the head of the British military,

45:34

the supreme Allied commander in Southeast

45:36

Asia during World War II, and the

45:39

final viceroy of India. He also

45:41

patented a

45:42

polo stick. He'd basically raised

45:44

King Charles III, in fact, he'd been the

45:47

one to introduce Elizabeth and Philip.

45:49

Charles would eventually propose

45:51

to Mountbatten's granddaughter,

45:54

though she refused him, in large part due to the fact

45:56

that she's still reeling from Mountbatten's untimely

45:59

death. Now

46:01

Prince William would eventually

46:03

name his youngest son after Mountbatten.

46:06

It was McGinnis who ordered his assassination during

46:08

a

46:08

fishing trip in County Sligo in 1979 that

46:13

also killed his two nephews. After

46:15

the bombing, the IRA issued a statement

46:18

saying, quote, The IRA claim

46:20

responsibility for the execution of

46:22

Lord Louis Mountbatten. This

46:25

operation is one of the discriminant

46:27

ways we can bring to the attention of the English

46:30

people, the continuing occupation

46:32

of our country. The death of Mountbatten

46:35

and the tributes paid to him will be seen

46:37

in sharp contrast to the apathy of the British

46:40

government and the English people to the

46:42

deaths of over 300 British

46:45

soldiers and the deaths of Irish

46:47

men, women and children

46:50

at the hands of their

46:51

forces. Yeah, and this is the guy

46:53

that Clinton is eulogizing and

46:56

it's this is such a complex

46:58

situation. It's hard to it's just hard

47:00

to imagine. It's hard to imagine that

47:02

you could have this as we said going

47:05

on and

47:05

then you have this piece of cord

47:08

and then everybody's just friends and the

47:10

Queen is shaking hands with the man who did

47:12

this and said this. And

47:14

as far as the United States goes, this is another

47:16

thing I don't know if people in Ireland are really familiar

47:18

with the the people in the United

47:20

States have a really weird relationship with the IRA.

47:23

So the IRA, as you can tell, is

47:25

and I hope nobody blows me up for

47:27

saying this, is a terrorist organization. I mean,

47:29

that's what it is. And it very

47:32

clearly was killing people. But in the

47:34

United States, it was seen as this

47:36

sort of freedom fighting group, particularly

47:39

in places like Boston, where IRA

47:41

fundraisers would go to bars

47:43

in Boston. There's these great stories about this. They just show up

47:45

in bars and take up a collection for the boys,

47:48

which were the guys who were fighting these battles.

47:50

And IRA members would come to the United States and

47:52

buy weapons and then bring them back

47:55

to Ireland. One of the slogans

47:57

was the ballot and the armolite, which

47:59

was how

47:59

they were going to win. They were going to win through

48:02

elections. Sinn Féin was going to take

48:04

over

48:05

and they were going to win through the use of the Armalite,

48:07

which is an AR. That's where

48:09

the AR comes from, an AR-15. So

48:12

they were committed to this fight

48:13

through the 80s and 90s until eventually

48:16

they decided on peace. And it wasn't just

48:19

McGinnis, he was the leader of this paramilitary

48:21

group. It was also Gary Adams, who was the

48:23

political leader, the leader of Sinn Féin.

48:25

He would say, the IRA gave clear reasons

48:28

for the execution.

48:29

I think it is unfortunate that anyone has to be

48:31

killed, but the furor created by Mountbatten's

48:33

death showed up the hypocritical attitude

48:36

of the media establishment. As a member of the

48:38

House of Lords, Mountbatten was an emotional

48:40

figure in both British and Irish politics.

48:43

What the IRA did to him is what Mountbatten

48:45

had been doing all his life to other people. And

48:48

with his war record, I don't think he would have objected

48:50

to dying in what was clearly a war situation.

48:53

He knew the danger involved in coming to this country.

48:55

In my opinion, the IRA achieved its

48:57

objective. People started paying attention

49:00

to what was happening in

49:02

Ireland. It turns out the assassination

49:04

was actually a coordinated attack. On the same day,

49:07

IRA members ambushed and killed 18 British

49:10

soldiers and counted down.

49:12

And the parties responsible for these attacks were eventually

49:15

arrested. They were all released as part of

49:17

the Good Friday Accords. And once

49:19

again, try and imagine

49:21

this.

49:23

Most of you who are listening to this are Americans.

49:25

Try to imagine if something

49:28

similar happened. If like, you

49:31

know,

49:31

the Secretary of Defense was fishing

49:34

in Canada and the Québécois

49:37

revolutionaries took him out for

49:39

free French

49:41

Quebec and issued this kind of statement

49:43

and political leaders issued this kind of statement. Imagine

49:46

the response from the United States,

49:48

what it would be. And oh, by the way, after doing that, then

49:51

killed a bunch of American soldiers. It's just

49:54

mind blowing. It's hard to even imagine

49:56

something like that happening. But it was happening in

49:59

Ireland.

49:59

in the 70s, ended in the 80s, and

50:02

up until the 90s when they reached this

50:05

peace agreement. But here's the thing about the peace agreement.

50:07

They reached a peace agreement, but they didn't solve the underlying

50:09

problem. You still have Northern Ireland.

50:11

And there were plenty of people who had dedicated

50:14

their lives to this war, because that's

50:16

what they viewed it. If you listen to Gary

50:18

Adams, I mean, he's telling you, Jerry Adams, I

50:20

think something actually pronounced his name. He's telling

50:22

you, like, look, this is a war. IRA is saying

50:24

the same thing. Not everybody was ready

50:27

to just let this go. So the IRA

50:29

disbanded as part of this agreement, though lots

50:31

of people think the IRA is still around. But at that

50:33

point, the real IRA

50:36

was formed. On August

50:38

15th, 1998, the real IRA set off a bomb in

50:43

Omaha, Northern Ireland. It

50:45

killed 29 people and injured 300

50:47

more.

50:48

And so when Clinton visited

50:51

Ireland in 2000, he made a point

50:53

of stopping in Dundalk, which

50:55

was a real IRA stronghold. And

50:58

in fact, the place where the leader of

51:00

the real IRA

51:02

lived.

51:03

So that's sort of the situation you've got in 2000.

51:06

You've got the real IRA who was

51:08

very unhappy with the fact that there's

51:10

peace. You have the architect of that

51:12

piece coming to Ireland. And

51:14

not only is he coming to Ireland, he's going to thumb his

51:17

nose in the face of

51:19

the real IRA.

51:20

And it makes you wonder if maybe somebody in the real

51:22

IRA decided we want

51:25

to make a point. We want to do something

51:27

spectacular. So where does Trevor come

51:29

in

51:30

and all this? Well,

51:31

there are some things we want to talk about. The

51:33

key,

51:34

the building,

51:35

the route and the chain.

51:37

These are the four things that I think are important to

51:40

this to this theory, to this insane

51:42

theory of mine. The first, the

51:44

key. So

51:45

Trevor is someone who works at this bank. Imagine

51:48

for a second, the man in black is a

51:50

real IRA

51:52

person who wants for whatever reason to

51:54

get into the building. What is he going

51:56

to need? He's going to need a key. And

51:59

so maybe you imagine, imagine

52:01

he's scoping out the place trying to find

52:03

a way in. Obviously, the IRA was very

52:05

well organized. The way they executed Mountbatten,

52:09

the way they coordinated that with an attack on British

52:11

soldiers, this was a group of people who knew how

52:13

to do things. You could imagine that

52:15

one of those people or a group of those people

52:18

were actually staking out this party,

52:20

looking for a target, someone

52:22

who could get them into the building.

52:25

Trevor just randomly happens to be

52:27

the one person who by himself is

52:30

walking back to that building, where the man

52:32

in black is waiting. What happens as

52:34

Trevor is walking back to the building?

52:37

The man in black gets a phone call.

52:39

When he gets that phone call, he steps off into the

52:41

street and looks down in the direction

52:44

of Trevor. He then allows Trevor to pass

52:46

him, doesn't say a thing to him, lets him pass him,

52:49

then he turns

52:50

and follows him. He actually ends up passing Trevor

52:52

at some point between these two cameras, but he

52:54

just casually keeps going and then hangs

52:57

out in front of the back gate, the entrance

52:59

to this building. It says something

53:02

to Trevor, but he's very casual about it.

53:04

Trevor starts looking for his key. What

53:06

does the man in black do? He looks over his shoulder

53:08

and watches him, sees that he gets

53:11

his key, sees that he can get in through

53:13

the gate, lets him go through. He's

53:15

not going to follow him in. He's smart enough

53:17

not to do that. He knows there will be security. He's

53:20

not going to do that,

53:21

but he now knows that

53:23

Trevor has access to the building.

53:26

Why the building is important will come to

53:29

in a second. He knows Trevor has access

53:31

to the building. Then you see Trevor leave.

53:34

Then you see that video and you see someone who appears

53:36

to be the man in black and possibly an accomplice

53:38

who is a woman and possibly an accomplice

53:40

in a vehicle who passed Trevor. After

53:43

you see those three things, you never

53:45

see Trevor again.

53:46

It feels as though he may have disappeared.

53:49

Why would they want access to the building?

53:52

Let's talk about the route. Let's talk

53:54

about where Bill Clinton went when he went

53:56

to Dublin. This is going to make more sense to those

53:59

of you who are.

53:59

from Dublin, but we will put these maps

54:02

up on the website

54:04

so you guys can see it. So

54:07

Clinton, he begins his trip in Phoenix

54:09

park, which is a big park in the middle of Dublin.

54:11

He lands there in

54:14

Marine one and he's,

54:16

it's right where the U S ambassadors residence

54:19

is located. So he lands there on Tuesday,

54:21

December 12th, 2000, very soon after this party

54:26

that Trevor went to from there.

54:28

He gets in a vehicle and travels

54:31

to the president's house, the president of Ireland,

54:33

who is also located in Phoenix park. The

54:35

president is the ceremonial head

54:38

of government. He's kind of like the

54:40

queen. Hopefully it's not offensive

54:43

to everybody in Ireland, but he's kind of like the queen in

54:45

that he is, he represents the state,

54:47

but he's not, he doesn't have political power.

54:50

So he hangs out with the president for a little while. Then

54:53

they get in a car and they travel to visit

54:55

the tee shock, which is the actual

54:58

political leader of Ireland's named after

55:00

sort of an ancient word for leader

55:02

in Gaelic. So they go to visit him.

55:05

His name is Bertie Aaron and

55:07

he's the actual leader of Ireland. So the president,

55:10

more like the king or queen of England, this

55:12

guy,

55:13

more like the president of the United States. And then

55:15

after this meeting, Clinton goes off and visits

55:17

the Guinness brewery has some Guinness and then

55:20

he heads back to Phoenix park.

55:22

So why are we talking about all this? If you

55:24

look at a map of this

55:26

path that he takes, Clinton

55:29

is driving in a motorcade

55:31

and to get to the tee shocks office

55:34

and from it to the Guinness storehouse,

55:37

the motorcade would have to have

55:39

traveled within a hundred yards

55:42

of the building where Trevor

55:44

worked. It is, if you look at the map,

55:47

very, very close.

55:49

And this would give you an opportunity if

55:51

you were in the IRA. If you're in the real

55:53

IRA, there's

55:54

a couple of things you can sort of imagine they might

55:57

do. One of them is trying to take a shot and

55:59

Clinton that's.

55:59

probably not going to work. It would be

56:02

very difficult to pull that off. But what are they known

56:04

for doing? Car bombs. So you could imagine

56:07

that you would want to put yourself in a situation where

56:09

you can see the approaching motorcade, possibly

56:11

from the top of this building. You're close

56:13

to the route, but not so close that maybe

56:16

you would be uncovered. You set up a bomb

56:18

somewhere, you set off the bomb, and

56:20

that's how you do the assassination attempt. A

56:23

couple things that could have happened. Obviously that didn't happen. Clinton

56:25

visited, he had a great time,

56:28

he thumbed his nose at the real IRA, he flew

56:30

back home, and that was basically the end of his presidency.

56:32

This was the last thing he did as

56:34

president, sort of a celebration of everything he had accomplished

56:37

in Ireland. Well, there's a couple possibilities. One

56:40

is that killing Trevor

56:42

to get that key was actually something that

56:45

raised the heat so much on them, they

56:47

decided to abandon this entire

56:50

operation. That is one possibility. The

56:52

other possibility is the

56:54

chain. So the fourth thing, so we talked about the key,

56:56

we talked about the building, we talked about the route, let's talk about the chain.

56:59

What the man in black would not have

57:01

known

57:02

is that there was also a chain,

57:05

and that if the chain was on the gate, you

57:07

couldn't get in with the key.

57:09

By the time he got there, the chain

57:11

had actually been taken off for a delivery. There

57:13

had been a delivery to the building, the security

57:16

had taken off the chain, and for whatever reason, they

57:18

never put it back on. And that's the only reason

57:20

that Trevor was actually able to get in, because

57:22

the chain wasn't back on.

57:24

It's also possible that this entire

57:27

thing fell apart because they got the key,

57:29

but

57:29

it wasn't enough.

57:31

And that when they got there to try and get

57:33

into the building to set all this up, they

57:35

couldn't actually do it, because the chain was on and

57:37

there was no way to get it off without calling

57:39

security. Trevor could have done

57:41

that. If he had gotten there and the

57:44

chain had been on, he could have called security, he

57:46

obviously works there, they would have let him in. They

57:48

wouldn't let these people in. If they actually had to interact

57:50

with someone in security, that would have been

57:52

a huge problem for this entire

57:55

plot. And you could imagine the entire

57:57

plot falls apart. In

58:00

short, that is my conspiracy

58:02

theory. In short, in long, that

58:04

is my conspiracy theory about

58:06

why these people wanted to get in. It

58:09

was an IRA operation that

58:11

went wrong. And the one other thing I'll say about

58:13

this, we've talked about the body a lot and we've talked

58:15

about how nobody ever found the body. Well, when Bill

58:17

Clinton gave that long eulogy

58:20

at Martin McGinnis's

58:22

funeral, there was one group of people in

58:24

particular who were very upset.

58:27

They were the families of the disappeared.

58:30

And the disappeared are what we call the

58:32

people in Ireland who were kidnapped,

58:35

murdered, and then their

58:37

bodies disposed of by the IRA

58:39

over the course of the

58:41

troubles. This happened a lot.

58:44

There are hundreds and hundreds of these people. The

58:46

IRA was very good at it. If you want to learn

58:49

more about this, there's a terrific book

58:51

called Say Nothing, which is

58:53

told from the perspective of a lot of people who were in

58:55

the IRA that talks about some of

58:58

these instances of these disappeared people

59:00

who the IRA showed up, they grabbed them, they

59:03

never saw them again. If there was anybody

59:05

who could do this, there was anybody who could grab

59:07

Trevor and get rid of him such that

59:09

he would never be found.

59:11

It was the IRA. Brett, that

59:13

was awesome. Because here's the thing.

59:15

We have as much evidence really

59:17

of this theory as all the other ones because

59:20

of the lack of evidence all around, except

59:23

you really do put some flavor with the IRA,

59:25

which is a real ... This

59:28

was all bubbling up around this time.

59:30

So wait, so is your theory that they were going to get inside

59:32

and park the car

59:35

bomb inside the gate because the rest of

59:37

the streets would be cleared for the motorcade?

59:38

So the way they did it, and the way they did it

59:40

with Mount Botan, is they would plant

59:43

the bomb. I mean, they would occasionally do timed bombs.

59:45

So the Orma bombing was a

59:47

timed bomb. There's

59:48

a picture in which some of you will have seen that

59:51

will be in one of our videos, probably this one, of

59:53

a father and a son standing in front of a car

59:56

in Orma and the picture is taken. That is

59:58

the bomb, the car, both the father and son.

59:59

survived, but that's the car that

1:00:02

eventually exploded a couple hours later. That was one

1:00:04

way they did it. That would not have been effective

1:00:06

here

1:00:07

because you wouldn't know exactly when Clinton was passing

1:00:09

through. What you would have needed is a spotter.

1:00:12

So with Mountbatten, for instance, the

1:00:14

way they killed him is they had a guy who

1:00:17

was on the shore

1:00:19

and he was watching Mountbatten

1:00:21

through his binoculars, waiting

1:00:24

for the right moment. The boat gets out into

1:00:26

the middle of the water. They had already planted a bomb

1:00:29

in the boat and then he blew it

1:00:31

up through remote control. So what I'm imagining

1:00:33

is you plant a bomb along the route.

1:00:36

You get into that building, which is close,

1:00:39

but not so close that would necessarily be taken over

1:00:41

by the secret service. You get to the

1:00:44

top of the building, you wait until the

1:00:46

motorcade comes through at the right spot,

1:00:49

then you detonate the bomb remotely. And

1:00:52

so that's how you'd pull it off. I

1:00:54

had a weird instance one time when

1:00:56

I was working in the state, Hillary

1:00:59

Clinton visited as part of her campaign

1:01:01

and she was visiting Martin Luther King

1:01:03

Jr's church, which was right across the street from

1:01:05

where I worked. And I was

1:01:07

at work that day looking out the window

1:01:10

of my building

1:01:11

and Hillary Clinton was standing in the street,

1:01:13

like just underneath me.

1:01:15

And

1:01:16

obviously I would never do anything to anyone,

1:01:19

including Hillary Clinton. But I was standing there thinking, this is

1:01:21

a real security breach because I'm

1:01:23

just here. Like nobody checked me as I came

1:01:25

into the building today and there's Hillary Clinton

1:01:27

right there. You know? So while

1:01:30

the secret service does a great job of

1:01:32

securing locations, they can only do so much.

1:01:35

And I would imagine that this is far

1:01:37

enough away that if you could get into there,

1:01:40

you could pull this off without anybody

1:01:42

noticing. Now, could you plant the bomb? That

1:01:44

would be the harder part. It's possible they just

1:01:46

also never were able to do that. That they had the key

1:01:48

they thought they had a way in, but they were never

1:01:50

able to plant a bomb due to all the security

1:01:53

considerations in a place where they could

1:01:55

pull this off. So that is one possibility. And

1:01:58

look,

1:01:58

is there evidence? quote unquote, to

1:02:00

support this. No. Other than

1:02:03

the fact to me, this seems like it was targeted

1:02:05

at Trevor. It was pulled off very

1:02:08

cleanly with no evidence whatsoever.

1:02:11

And Clinton's arrival in Dublin

1:02:13

was so close in time to this that

1:02:16

it

1:02:16

is a conspiracy theory. But

1:02:19

I mean,

1:02:21

it wouldn't surprise me if something crazy

1:02:23

like this is what happened. So if

1:02:25

one day I'm getting into my car and it

1:02:27

blows up, you know, we were right. Oh,

1:02:30

we'll talk about car bombs and where

1:02:32

you're from at some point in one of these episodes, I'm

1:02:34

sure. But I

1:02:37

like your conspiracy theory. I

1:02:40

agree. There's really no evidence of it. And to

1:02:42

me, it stretches a little

1:02:44

bit that they can be so coordinated and so

1:02:47

good at pulling off the kidnapping

1:02:49

and then disappearance and murder of

1:02:52

Trevor,

1:02:53

but have it go nowhere. You know, it just seems

1:02:55

like that that was so well executed

1:02:58

that for the rest of the plan to fall apart,

1:03:00

but maybe that's how the IRA rolls

1:03:02

like we get as far as we can

1:03:04

and people are disposable, Trevor's

1:03:06

disposable, even if we weren't 100 percent sure

1:03:09

that this would lead us to success

1:03:11

in our assassination plan.

1:03:14

So it could be that it just seems like it's

1:03:16

such a well coordinated plot

1:03:19

that it seems unlikely

1:03:21

that it would just fall so far short of

1:03:23

achieving the end goal. But

1:03:26

let me let me maybe take a spin on

1:03:28

your conspiracy theory for a slightly less

1:03:31

conspiratorial possibility that

1:03:33

still involves a lot of the historical

1:03:35

importance of Northern Ireland

1:03:37

and the IRA as you have laid it out. Maybe

1:03:41

this was not about

1:03:43

assassinating Clinton.

1:03:46

Maybe it was just about making money. Trevor's

1:03:48

disappearance was a year after the Good

1:03:50

Friday Agreement, but could

1:03:52

have been a dissident

1:03:54

IRA group looking desperately

1:03:56

for funding, perhaps the real IRA.

1:03:58

And as As a bank employee,

1:04:01

the real IRA IRA might

1:04:03

have seen Trevor as having some

1:04:05

sort of ransom

1:04:07

value, no matter his role

1:04:09

in the company. The IRA have been

1:04:11

known to kidnap for ransom to fund activities,

1:04:14

and the IRA is good at this kind of thing

1:04:17

like we've kind of talked about. On

1:04:19

December 20th, 2004, for instance,

1:04:22

a group believed to be a part of the real

1:04:24

IRA pulled off a 25.6

1:04:26

million pound robbery of the

1:04:29

Northern Bank in Belfast.

1:04:32

So there's some historical credence

1:04:35

to them being able

1:04:37

to pull off something like this and to use

1:04:40

kidnappings as a way to fund activities.

1:04:43

The only problem here, of course, is that there

1:04:46

was never any ransom demand for Trevor.

1:04:49

He is relatively low on the totem

1:04:51

pole in terms of someone having

1:04:53

value, and it didn't

1:04:56

actually lead to any money that

1:04:59

we know of going out the door for

1:05:01

anybody related to Trevor or not.

1:05:05

Yeah, I think if it was for money, it was still to get

1:05:07

in. I think access to the building

1:05:09

was why this happened. I don't think

1:05:11

this was a random attack. I think the man in black

1:05:14

is responsible or is part of the group who

1:05:16

is responsible. I think they coordinated this.

1:05:18

I think there's a reason they weren't interested in the two

1:05:21

people. The two guys who show up later,

1:05:23

the man in black shows no interest in them. I

1:05:25

think they had already identified Trevor for whatever

1:05:27

reason. He was alone, and

1:05:30

he was the one they were going to go after, and they wanted

1:05:32

to get into that building. Why exactly

1:05:34

is hard to say? Could have been there was some

1:05:36

sort of value there that we're

1:05:39

not thinking of. There

1:05:40

wasn't gold in that bank,

1:05:42

but there would have been valuable things, and maybe they

1:05:45

knew that.

1:05:45

Just to keep going back to movies and stuff, if you guys have

1:05:48

ever seen

1:05:49

Justified, great show, love that show.

1:05:51

Last season, there's a bank robbery where all they

1:05:54

steal is documents. They don't steal any money. They

1:05:56

just steal documents because they know the documents are valuable.

1:05:58

It's a similar thing here.

1:05:59

where for whatever reason, whatever

1:06:02

reason it is, they wanna get in that building.

1:06:05

And Trevor is the key and has

1:06:07

the key, has the literal key. And

1:06:10

like I said, I don't know why, but

1:06:13

you'll never convince me that this was an accident

1:06:15

for all the reasons we said. And

1:06:16

you'll never convince me that this was a

1:06:19

random act of violence for all the reasons

1:06:22

we said. So I think this was an organized attack.

1:06:24

It's also possible the IRA,

1:06:26

a lot of the IRA members basically turned

1:06:28

into a mafia afterwards. Once the sort

1:06:30

of political reasons died away,

1:06:32

they used their skills to do things like

1:06:35

run the drug operation or the gambling

1:06:37

operations or whatever in

1:06:39

various places in Ireland. So it's possible that it is

1:06:42

something like that, that it is the IRA, but

1:06:44

not the real IRA

1:06:45

and not for any sort of political purpose, but just for

1:06:48

some sort of monetary thing. So that's what I think happened.

1:06:50

I think there is some connection there. I

1:06:52

don't know what it is. If

1:06:54

you're somebody who used to be in the IRA and you wanna

1:06:56

reach out and let us know if you think our idea

1:06:58

is plausible. Please don't blow us up. Love

1:07:00

to hear from you. Don't blow us up. That

1:07:03

will just confirm the theory and you don't wanna

1:07:05

do that.

1:07:06

You wanna do the opposite of that. Exactly,

1:07:09

you wanna do the opposite of that. Right, and

1:07:11

you know, hey, we're all about Irish independence

1:07:13

here on the Proscutors. Oh man. I

1:07:18

don't know, I like this. I do like this theory.

1:07:20

I think it's interesting. And really

1:07:23

at bottom,

1:07:24

there's no evidence because I

1:07:27

do think this is targeted because of the complete

1:07:29

lack of evidence. Crimes are hard

1:07:31

to pull off completely undetected and it takes

1:07:33

planning ahead of time. And the

1:07:35

fact that there is so little evidence is evidence,

1:07:38

I think to me, that it was coordinated

1:07:40

and it was targeted.

1:07:41

So that's our theories. We

1:07:43

don't really have any great ones. I mean, we have some good

1:07:45

ones, but maybe not. Any that have a lot of evidence

1:07:47

behind them. Love to hear what you guys think.

1:07:50

Proscutorspodatgmail.com is our

1:07:52

email at Proscutorspod for Twitter, Facebook,

1:07:54

and Instagram. Join the gallery

1:07:57

so you can discuss this and other cases.

1:07:59

with us and hello to all of you on Patreon

1:08:02

listening early in ad free. We love you guys.

1:08:05

Enjoy so much discussing some of these cases live

1:08:08

with you on our YouTubes

1:08:11

and our Get Vocals

1:08:13

though those have been kind of a disaster lately. We tried

1:08:16

though. We went all the different ways. We try.

1:08:19

We want to see your faces and we want you to see our faces. So

1:08:21

thank you guys for being so supportive. Hey

1:08:25

guys, this is Brett with a quick follow

1:08:27

up. You know, when we finished this episode, I thought

1:08:30

to myself, are people going to think we're crazy?

1:08:32

Are

1:08:32

they going to say, you know, the owl theory was

1:08:35

one thing, but now they've really, they've

1:08:37

lost the plot. And look, if you thought

1:08:39

that I can understand with

1:08:42

the IRA really try and blow up a bomb

1:08:44

in the middle of a presidential visit. Well,

1:08:47

you know, it's funny how history repeats

1:08:50

itself. Very recently in April of 2023,

1:08:53

President Biden visited Northern

1:08:56

Ireland and I have an article I'm going

1:08:58

to read to you the headline IRA

1:09:00

terror plot foiled in Northern Ireland

1:09:03

ahead of president Biden

1:09:05

visit police in Northern Ireland

1:09:07

have thwarted an IRA terror bomb plot

1:09:09

intended to disrupt president Biden's upcoming

1:09:12

visit to Belfast on Tuesday. Members

1:09:14

of the paramilitary group, the new IRA

1:09:17

were allegedly looking to purchase bomb

1:09:19

parts and dairy and scheming to build

1:09:21

an explosive device to disrupt Biden's

1:09:23

diplomatic stopover. The

1:09:25

belief is that the new IRA was planning some sort

1:09:28

of attack to coincide with Biden's

1:09:30

visit. Last November, the great claimed

1:09:32

responsibility for detonating a roadside bomb

1:09:35

targeting a police vehicle in County Tyrone.

1:09:38

Thomas Mellon, the leader of the new IRA wanted

1:09:40

a quote unquote spectacular way to

1:09:42

undermine Biden's visit. So

1:09:45

my question for you is, is this a

1:09:47

coincidence? Is this a new idea

1:09:50

or is it a rehashing of

1:09:52

an old plot that at some point

1:09:55

went wrong something to think about?

1:09:57

Thanks for listening.

1:09:59

Alice, is there anything else you want to say before

1:10:02

we sign off?

1:10:02

This has been fun, Brett. I can't

1:10:05

believe we made it through your theory in this episode, but

1:10:07

look at us being shortwinded. There you

1:10:09

go. Look at us. Look

1:10:11

at us. We're so great. Well, as we sail off

1:10:13

to the foggy dew, next week we'll be back with another

1:10:16

case, new questions, maybe

1:10:18

new answers. We'll see. But

1:10:20

until then, I'm Brett. And

1:10:23

I'm Alice. And we are the

1:10:25

prosecutors.

1:10:30

It's really shocking.

1:10:47

Okay,

1:10:48

I'm recording and you're on speaker.

1:10:54

Testing, testing, testing, testing. Man, it's a bad start. Anytime

1:10:58

you want to start that over. Oh

1:11:00

man.

1:11:04

I'm drinking this bourbon.

1:11:06

Are you going to do testing or not? I

1:11:08

just did it. Okay, okay. Yeah, I

1:11:10

heard the clink of the glass. I was like, maybe

1:11:12

he's like three drinks in, you know? I don't know.

1:11:26

Okay. Okay.

1:12:00

It's like, it's this

1:12:02

glass or this, well it's the whiskey

1:12:04

I wanted, the Secret

1:12:07

Santa thing,

1:12:29

party. Oh, is it good whiskey?

1:12:31

Not really. Oh.

1:12:34

I guess there was like a whatever

1:12:36

dollar limit, but

1:12:38

you could still get really good whiskey for $30.