0:00

I'm Jamie Bebe. And I'm Jake Diptula. We're

0:03

the host of the Strictly Stalking podcast. Strictly

0:05

Stalking is a true crime podcast that explores

0:07

stalking stories told by the survivors

0:10

in their own words. Join us every

0:12

Tuesday as we interview survivors, advocates,

0:14

and experts to give you a deep dive into

0:16

the workings of a stalking case.

0:18

Would you know where to turn if you or someone you know

0:20

is being stalked? We'll also give you

0:22

the resources to fight back, know your

0:25

rights, and get justice.

0:26

Strictly Stalking wherever

0:28

you listen to podcasts from Podcast

0:30

One.

0:39

I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And

0:42

we are the Prosecutors. Today

0:55

on The Prosecutors, the case against

0:58

Adnan Syed. Hello

1:32

everybody and welcome to this episode of

1:35

The Prosecutors. I'm Brett.

1:37

And I'm joined as always by

1:39

my unconquerable co-host,

1:42

Alice. Hi Brett. I

1:45

am shaking in my boots figuratively

1:47

right now because every Texan has a pair

1:49

of good boots because

1:51

we are

1:52

conquering a case

1:55

that I really never thought we would have

1:57

the time or energy to do. But

2:00

thanks to doing all of these episodes live,

2:02

I feel like invigorated to

2:04

be doing this last episode, despite

2:08

it coming with a lot of emotion. Because,

2:10

you know, we've talked about how these cases are

2:12

kind of like our babies, and then we spend

2:14

so much time with them, and then we have to let them out into

2:16

the world and let them, you

2:19

know, criticize us all they want.

2:21

It's true. I mean, you know how your children are when they

2:23

become teenagers, and we're at 14 here. And

2:27

yeah, I know there were times where it felt

2:29

like, for the people listening out there, we

2:31

might never get here. There are some of you

2:33

who are so glad we're here. So we

2:35

will talk about something, anything,

2:37

other than Ad Nonsad, and some of

2:39

you are probably sad to see

2:42

it go. I personally didn't

2:44

really, you know, wasn't really excited about covering

2:46

this case. We talked about this, we talked about this at the

2:48

beginning, but I've actually really enjoyed

2:50

it. It turned out to be a lot of fun. So

2:52

to all of you who said, cover

2:55

this case, need to look into this case,

2:58

thank you for suggesting it, because I actually

3:00

really enjoyed it. And you know,

3:03

we're going to spend a lot of time on it today. This

3:05

could be a long episode, because we've got a lot

3:07

to say, and then we've got this long list of things

3:09

we want to discuss at the end. So there's really no

3:11

telling how long this is going to last. So

3:13

I hope you guys...

3:14

It's kind of, it's literally a laundry list

3:16

of like, brain dump. You

3:19

know, it didn't fit well into the narrative. But

3:22

it's like things I gots to say. Yeah,

3:24

things we want to talk about at

3:26

the end. And we're going to do that. And

3:29

hopefully you guys will enjoy this.

3:32

And look, we've tried to approach this case

3:34

from an open mind. We've tried to give you guys

3:37

the facts. Obviously, we have offered our opinions.

3:39

I think that's why you listen. I don't think you

3:41

listen to us just recite things from the case

3:43

file. You can read that if you go to

3:45

our website, prosecutorspodcast.com

3:48

and go to the first episode. And I'll probably

3:50

go ahead and put it on this episode too, just so it's easy to

3:52

find. We've linked to a whole bunch of stuff. We've

3:54

uploaded a bunch of documents. Check it

3:56

out. Read it for yourself. We always say

3:58

go to the originals.

3:59

You may have a different take on things than we do. You

4:02

may read something in the file that we didn't even address,

4:04

that you actually think is really important. And I think it's important.

4:07

You guys are all really smart.

4:09

And it's like when

4:11

my last trial, I did the closing, and one of the things

4:13

I said in it was, jurors,

4:18

we don't pick juries of judges

4:20

and lawyers. We pick juries

4:22

who

4:23

are going to decide the facts based on something

4:25

much more important, which is their own common sense. And all

4:27

of you have that, and all of you are qualified

4:30

to think about these cases and

4:32

reach conclusions based on the facts.

4:34

Don't let anybody tell you what to think.

4:37

Don't let anybody tell you what to listen to. And

4:39

don't assume just because you're hearing it from us,

4:41

you're hearing it from somebody else that's the gospel

4:44

and it can never be questioned. Feel free to question

4:46

everything. Look for yourself, read

4:48

for yourself, believe in your own ability

4:51

to sift through this stuff. You can do it. It

4:53

takes a lot of time and a lot of effort.

4:55

And a lot of times it's not worth doing,

4:58

frankly, but you can do it and

5:00

we are going to do our best to make the resources

5:02

available for you so you can do it.

5:06

With that, are

5:08

you ready to start talking, Alice? No, I'm ready. Okay,

5:11

so up till this point, we've gone through

5:13

a lot of evidence, obviously in the first 12 episodes,

5:16

the last episode, we talked about some theories. There's

5:18

one thing I wanna come back to because it's been bugging me. And

5:20

that's the cell phone evidence

5:23

in this case. I had an oral argument

5:25

this week and I had this defense

5:27

attorney, he was making this point and

5:30

his point was obviously wrong, but

5:33

explaining why it was wrong on the

5:35

fly was really hard. And

5:37

I kept trying to think of a way to explain this to

5:39

the judge in a way that made sense

5:42

and was convincing. And who knows if I was

5:44

successful or not, we'll find out later, well, then

5:46

I'm gonna win that one. But

5:48

that made me think about the cell phone evidence some

5:51

more. So I wanna come back to it very briefly and

5:53

then we'll talk some more about theories. One

5:55

big thing about the cell phones, all of you know

5:57

about the cover sheet, we talked about the cover sheet.

5:59

And when you discuss the cover sheet, the cover sheet

6:02

was the way to interpret the subscriber

6:04

data, the subscriber data sheets. And

6:08

you had these two documents and they both were

6:10

important and they both were described as subscriber

6:12

data. So you had this

6:14

expert talking about them and he's going through

6:16

how the things in the key are

6:19

really on one of the documents and not on

6:21

the other. And so it was his opinion, the key

6:23

really applies to that first document and

6:26

not so much the second. And at

6:28

the end of the day, the judge who I

6:30

don't really think understood

6:32

the distinction he was trying to make basically said,

6:34

I don't know. They both say the same thing. The

6:36

both say their subscriber data sheets. So

6:39

I think the key applies to both. The

6:41

key says you can't trust location data. So

6:44

I don't think you can trust location data. That's essentially

6:46

what the judge said. Eventually that turned out not to matter

6:49

because of some procedural

6:51

things that became problematic. And so that

6:53

issue kind of died away. But for

6:55

those of us who are trying to figure out the truth here, I think

6:57

it is important. And there's one thing I want to note

6:59

and you may buy this, you may not buy

7:02

it. But when I was thinking about this, when you look at that

7:04

key, it says that

7:06

the location data is not

7:08

reliable for incoming

7:10

calls. And as we pointed out in our

7:13

episode, there is a column

7:16

for location

7:18

and it was the FBI agent's position.

7:21

And I think we basically endorsed it that

7:23

when it says location data is not

7:25

reliable for incoming calls, it is probably

7:28

applying to the location column. But

7:30

plenty of people look at that and say, well, yeah,

7:32

but why wouldn't that apply with equal

7:34

force to the location data from

7:37

the cell site analysis? And there's just one thing I

7:39

want to point out.

7:40

We are all using shorthand

7:42

to describe cell site analysis.

7:46

We are describing

7:47

that information as location

7:50

because that's why it's important to us. We

7:52

want to use it to find the information, but

7:54

that is not the information that the document conveys.

7:57

The information the document is conveying

7:59

is the cell tower and the

8:02

cell sector that the cell phone

8:04

is connecting with. The only way you get

8:06

location out of that is to take additional

8:08

information that you know, including the way

8:10

cell phones work, the length

8:13

of coverage, the amount of coverage

8:15

that each tower has, the sectors

8:17

that the towers are divided into, what

8:20

areas those sectors cover,

8:23

use some math, use some geometry, and

8:25

then you reach location. So

8:27

to me, when you read that where it

8:29

says not accurate for location data, it

8:32

doesn't say not accurate for

8:34

cell site analysis, not

8:36

accurate for cell towers and

8:39

the sectors the cell phone is

8:41

pinging for incoming calls. And I

8:43

think that's important, and I think it's something that people

8:45

miss when they look at the cell information

8:48

in isolation and don't think about

8:50

a little bit deeper about what it's really saying.

8:52

Brett, that's a really, really good point. And for those

8:54

of you who might need like a picture or

8:57

a metaphor of what Brett just explained, it

8:59

would make sense that if you were given

9:01

a math problem and someone just wrote

9:03

a number on the page, the answer to number

9:06

one is 83. That's analogous

9:08

to the location column, right? It doesn't

9:11

tell you how it reached the location, it literally

9:13

just gives you an answer. 83 on

9:15

the math problem. What it's not saying

9:17

is when you do the entire math proof with all the

9:19

inputs that have no reason to doubt,

9:21

you have no reason to doubt the other things, nothing

9:24

on that subscriber sheet says the inputs

9:26

into the analysis should be questioned,

9:29

that you can't put together what

9:31

basically the subscriber sheet does not doubt

9:33

the accuracy of to do your own math

9:36

and your own math proof and arrive at the

9:38

answer. And so if the answer ends

9:40

up being the same as 83,

9:42

there's no indication on the subscriber sheet that

9:44

should doubt that analysis that reaches

9:47

that answer. So just wanted

9:49

to add that. You guys can take

9:51

it for what it's worth. Cell phone

9:53

stuff is obviously, it's complicated,

9:55

it's confusing and it's controversial, but

9:58

I do think it's helpful. as we always note,

10:01

really only controversial when it comes to these incoming

10:03

calls. So with that, what are we all

10:06

here for, Brett? We are here to talk

10:08

about how Adnan is innocent.

10:10

And I think this is very important to talk about because

10:13

obviously there are really

10:15

two camps, right? Either Adnan did

10:18

it or Adnan did not do it. We

10:20

did not come into this case with any sort

10:22

of predetermined reason. I had

10:24

listened to Serial, I had read kind of

10:26

news updates, you know, throughout the years about

10:29

the case, but I had never dived into the records. So

10:31

I wasn't in some camp of absolutely 1000%

10:34

sure I know that Adnan

10:36

is guilty or innocent. And I

10:38

think it's important every case, and we do this in our

10:40

cases and we're asked about this from you guys.

10:43

How do we check our biases? You do

10:45

that by making the case for

10:47

both sides. So let's talk about

10:49

the case for Adnan's innocence. So

10:52

what is the argument for that? First,

10:54

the timeline as we have said over

10:56

and over is extremely tight.

10:59

Even assuming the murder happened later

11:02

than the prosecution said, Adnan

11:04

needed to get hay in the car, get

11:07

away from Woodlawn, strangle her,

11:09

and move her body to the trunk all

11:12

in less than an hour. And he had

11:14

to do this with no one seeing him, including

11:17

no one at school.

11:19

Did he have a motive? The

11:22

prosecution pointed to a combination of things,

11:24

religion and jealousy as

11:27

the prime motive. But the

11:29

religion motive is a little all

11:31

over the place. Yes,

11:33

Adnan was religious, but he seemed

11:35

like he wasn't exactly devout as a

11:37

teenager.

11:38

He lied to his parents, he smoked

11:40

pot, he slept with girls, and

11:42

he dated girls outside of his religion, including

11:45

hay and nisha. And while

11:47

Adnan obviously liked hay a lot, he,

11:50

like her, had seemingly moved

11:53

on. He was dating someone else, just

11:55

like hay was dating someone else. And

11:57

it wasn't just that day that they started

11:59

dating.

12:00

They were dating people since about New Year's.

12:02

It wasn't like Adnan was sitting at home,

12:05

lonely, completely by his lonesome

12:07

self pining over hay. And

12:11

Adnan doesn't seem like the kind of person

12:13

who kills over nothing. He's

12:15

maintained a sterling record

12:17

in prison. He has no history

12:20

of violence. We know that at school,

12:22

he was in the honors program, he was

12:24

a good student, he was driven. And

12:27

yes, he smoked pot,

12:29

but that isn't exactly unusual

12:32

and is barely a crime these days

12:34

anyway. And other than that,

12:37

he was a seemingly great

12:39

kid. A good student, at least

12:41

when he turned in his assignments and showed up for class.

12:44

He was an athlete, he was popular

12:46

with his classmates, popular with his

12:48

whole school, winning school-wide titles.

12:52

He was prom prince.

12:54

It's safe to say that few at Woodlawn

12:56

thought Adnan did this. And

12:58

even if they initially did,

13:00

time and public attention have turned

13:03

many, if not most of them to

13:05

his side, even some who

13:07

testified at his trial.

13:10

Then there's the things we've discussed

13:12

throughout this podcast. The chief

13:15

evidence against Adnan is Jay. And

13:19

Jay's story changes. And it changes

13:21

in key ways. Sometimes

13:24

Jay lies outright.

13:26

Sometimes he conflates or confuse

13:28

things. Can Jay be trusted?

13:31

And even if he can, is

13:34

the lying enough to create reasonable

13:36

doubt? There's

13:40

also the lividity evidence that

13:42

some have said shows Hay

13:45

couldn't have been buried when she must have

13:47

been if Adnan is the one responsible.

13:51

There's the testimony of Asia McClain

13:53

that Adnan was in the library when the prosecution

13:56

said Adnan was killing Hay.

13:59

Anzo Sellers, who

14:01

doesn't make a bad suspect. And

14:04

there's the question about the cell phone data,

14:06

which we've talked about a lot.

14:10

Can it really be used to show the

14:12

location of the cell phone? And

14:14

if the evidence against Adnan doesn't

14:16

stand up, how can we really

14:19

know and say that he's

14:21

guilty and guilty beyond a reasonable

14:23

doubt? So I guess that's it. Good

14:27

job, Alice. Alice did

14:29

a great job laying out

14:32

the case for Adnan's innocence. And I think a

14:34

lot of the things that Alice talked about

14:36

are things that you hear a lot

14:38

from a lot of people. And there are things

14:40

that I think you do have to grapple with

14:43

when you're talking about this case, particularly if you

14:45

want to say that Adnan Syed

14:48

killed Hey Minh Lee. Now obviously, you all

14:50

have listened to the last 13 episodes. So

14:53

you know that we address these

14:55

issues throughout the podcast. And

14:57

in our opinion, many of the problems

15:00

can be explained, but maybe you

15:02

disagree. Maybe your take was

15:04

different. Maybe you still doubt the

15:06

cell phones, or you think the lividity

15:08

evidence is powerful. Maybe

15:10

you don't trust Jay, or you think he's

15:13

lying about some things or a lot of things,

15:15

and that's fine. But we think we can

15:17

all agree on at least one thing.

15:20

None of this evidence is knocked

15:22

down. Maybe the actual lividity

15:25

on Hey doesn't match up with her

15:27

burial. But the reality is the

15:29

photographs we've seen, and the frankly

15:32

shoddy autopsy report, are consistent

15:35

with

15:35

her burial. Maybe the location data

15:37

for incoming calls is unreliable,

15:39

but that's based on an instruction sheet

15:42

that no one can really explain. One

15:44

an FBI expert says isn't

15:46

talking about cell sites,

15:48

and current AT&T personnel say doesn't

15:51

mean what the defense thinks

15:53

it means. But still, we can't

15:55

say for certain that the incoming

15:58

calls were reliable anymore.

15:59

than we can say for sure that

16:02

the Levidity evidence was absolutely

16:04

consistent with the burial. The truth

16:07

is there's not enough evidence

16:09

to be definitive on either of these

16:12

things and since it's not Adnan's

16:14

job to prove he's innocent,

16:17

maybe that's enough. Maybe that's enough to

16:19

conclude that it was the right and

16:21

just thing for him to be released

16:24

from prison. Brett,

16:26

is that what you think though? No.

16:31

That is not what I think

16:32

because despite

16:34

all of those things, the case for

16:36

Adnan's guilt is so strong.

16:40

We started with some of the points that

16:42

needed to hold up. That's how we began

16:45

this entire

16:46

podcast series.

16:49

One, Adnan gave Jay his car

16:51

and cell phone that day. Two, Adnan

16:54

had Jay pick him up after the murders and

16:56

drop off Hay's car. Three,

16:58

later Adnan had Jay helping bury the

17:01

body in Leakin Park. And four,

17:03

Adnan and Jay dropped the car off

17:05

in an alley between some apartments after

17:09

the body was buried. The

17:13

first is undisputed.

17:14

Adnan and Jay were together most of the day

17:17

and that can't be denied and I don't think most people

17:19

would deny it. But

17:20

what about the other three?

17:22

Now there are discrepancies in their stories

17:25

and those stories are certainly open to attack.

17:27

But Jen Pousitieri fingered Adnan

17:30

for the murders with her lawyer present until

17:32

basically the same story that Jay

17:34

would tell later that night to police.

17:37

It was a story backed up by cell phone pings

17:40

and the coincidence of Adnan letting

17:42

Jay borrow his car and phone the

17:44

very day of the murder. It was

17:46

supported by the Nisha call, a call that

17:48

smacks of an attempt to build an alibi that

17:51

later backfired. This

17:52

call proves that Adnan and Jay

17:55

were together in the three o'clock hour at

17:57

the exact time

17:59

Jay said

17:59

were and at the exact time they

18:02

would need to be together for Adnan to

18:04

have killed Hei. Jay's

18:06

story was supported by Jyn's

18:09

knowledge that Hei had been strangled

18:11

a fact that was not known to

18:13

the public. It was supported

18:15

by Adnan asking Hei for a ride the day

18:17

of the murder for a fake reason and then

18:20

lying about it later to the police. And

18:22

it came only a few weeks after Hei not only

18:25

broke up with Adnan but quickly replaced

18:27

him with somebody older and flashier.

18:30

These are separate, interlocking

18:32

facts

18:34

that do not depend on each other,

18:36

all lining up to support the story

18:38

in dispute. Even if some of

18:40

these facts fall away or aren't entirely

18:42

convincing to you, there are other facts

18:45

to replace them. If this case weren't

18:47

the subject of a smash hit podcast

18:50

and international debate, it would be

18:52

a slam dunk. The kind of case

18:54

you wouldn't even bother to question. Just

18:56

another example of a toxic relationship

18:59

and a man who would rather kill a woman

19:01

than be embarrassed by her. And

19:04

I want to turn to Jay's statements

19:06

because I know there is so much

19:08

debate and so much talk about whether

19:11

we can trust Jay and a lot of people

19:13

just throw up their hands despite overwhelming

19:16

evidence of Adnan's guilt to say, well,

19:18

gotta throw out all of the strong evidence because

19:21

Jay

19:22

lies. And

19:24

how he has changed his story over time.

19:27

But if you take Jen's story and

19:30

Jay's, there is a basic story

19:32

that emerges. Adnan

19:34

called Jay, gave

19:37

him his cell phone and car,

19:39

called Jay later while he was at

19:41

Jen's.

19:42

Jay picked up Adnan at Best Buy.

19:45

They dropped the car off at the park and ride

19:48

and then Jay dropped Adnan at

19:50

track practice.

19:52

Jay later picked up Adnan and they

19:54

went to Christy Vincent's house. There

19:57

Adnan got a call from the cops And

20:00

the two went back to get Hay's car

20:02

and bury her body. Then

20:04

Adnan dropped off Jay

20:06

where he was picked up by Jen and went

20:09

back to his house and possibly mosque.

20:12

That's the basic story. Do

20:14

the cell phone pings support it? Well,

20:16

here's what they show in brief. At 10.45

20:20

AM, there's an outgoing call from Adnan

20:23

to Jay, pinging at Woodlawn

20:25

High School.

20:26

At 12.07 PM, Adnan's

20:29

phone calls Jen Pousateri, not

20:32

someone that Adnan knew well and

20:34

not someone he would have called.

20:37

But Jen is Jay's best friend, confirming

20:40

that at this point, Jay has

20:42

Adnan's cell phone and car.

20:45

At 12.41 PM, another call to Jen, this

20:49

time near Jay's grandmother's

20:52

house.

20:53

At 2.36 PM, an

20:55

incoming call to Adnan's cell phone in

20:58

the wedge covering Jen's

21:00

house. This call was

21:02

the call the prosecution said was the come

21:05

get me call. And it's more likely

21:07

actually that the call Jay would later describe

21:10

as the be ready call. Though

21:12

it could also have been a call telling

21:14

Jay to head towards the best buy where

21:17

Adnan knew he was going.

21:19

At 3.15 PM, an incoming

21:22

call covering Best Buy and

21:24

the mall.

21:26

At 3.21 PM, outgoing

21:29

call to Jen, which also pings

21:31

the same tower covering Best

21:33

Buy and the mall. Note

21:36

that these two calls only six minutes

21:38

apart, one incoming and one

21:40

outgoing ping the same

21:43

tower.

21:45

At 3.32 PM, there's

21:47

an outgoing call to Nisha Tana.

21:50

This call 11 minutes after the

21:52

incoming call and a butt dial

21:54

or not

21:55

also pings the same tower

21:58

and the same cell location. At 3.48,

22:01

outgoing

22:03

call to Phil,

22:05

with the cell phone moving into

22:07

the A sector of the tower away

22:09

from the Best Buy and towards Woodlawn.

22:12

At 3.59pm, an

22:15

outgoing call to Patrick, which

22:17

also pings the A sector of the

22:19

Woodlawn tower which covers the school.

22:22

At 4.12pm, the cell

22:24

phone now calls Jen again

22:27

and this time pings around Jay's

22:29

house. At

22:32

4.27pm, an incoming call pings

22:34

the tower near Jen's house, pinging

22:37

the cell quadrant to its west.

22:42

At 4.58pm, an incoming call

22:44

pinging the same tower near Jen's

22:46

house. At

22:48

5.38pm, an outgoing call to Krista,

22:51

pinging the I-70 Park & Ride

22:54

where Jay says Adnan left Hay's

22:56

car earlier and is in

22:58

the direction one would travel

23:00

from Woodlawn to Kristy Vinson's

23:02

house. At 6.07,

23:06

an incoming call with the cell phone pinging

23:08

the quadrant that covers Kristy's

23:11

house. At 6.09,

23:14

an incoming call which pings a different

23:16

tower but still one covering

23:18

Kristy's house.

23:20

At 6.24, an incoming

23:22

call from Officer Adcock which

23:25

pings the same tower as the 6.09

23:27

call also

23:29

covering Kristy's house.

23:32

There's one thing I want to say about this

23:34

call. As we talked about when we went

23:36

through the timeline, one of the problems with

23:38

the incoming calls is we don't know who it's

23:40

from. So it's difficult

23:43

for instance because you don't know who it's from to

23:45

test the defense theory about

23:48

why incoming calls are inconsistent.

23:50

And I want to remind you of what

23:53

the expert Jerry Grant testified

23:55

to in trial. Here's what he

23:57

said when he was asked why would incoming

23:59

calls

23:59

be less reliable for

24:03

location data. And he says, I'm

24:05

aware of testimony that in earlier days, and

24:08

it was from an AT&T, I believe, I

24:10

don't know if it was an engineer or a person working

24:12

from AT&T, that there's a possibility

24:15

that an incoming call in earlier years

24:17

would reflect the location of the caller and

24:19

not the person being called because they

24:21

were both AT&T

24:23

customers.

24:24

The advantage of this call is we know exactly

24:27

who it was and we know exactly where they

24:29

were. This is Officer Adcock. He

24:31

is calling from far north. He's

24:33

calling much closer to Hayes House where

24:36

he's been. He would not have

24:38

been near

24:39

Christie's House. He would not have

24:41

been where the cell phone

24:43

ping tells us

24:45

the cell phone was at the time. The

24:47

only person who would have been there

24:49

is Adnan, which is consistent both with

24:51

the prior calls and with the story

24:54

that Jay told.

24:55

At 6.59 and at 7, there

24:57

are two outgoing calls, one to

24:59

Yassir, Ali, Adnan's friend,

25:02

and another to Jen's pager. At

25:05

this point, the cell phone is now pinging

25:07

the tower that covers Woodlawn High.

25:10

Note that at this late hour, the cell phone

25:12

is calling one person that Adnan knew,

25:14

but Jay didn't, and one person that

25:16

Jay knows, that Adnan barely knows,

25:19

indicating that they are still together.

25:22

At 7.09 and 7.16, there are two

25:25

incoming calls that ping the tower

25:27

covering three key spots,

25:30

the park and ride where the car was left,

25:32

the burial spot, and the ultimate

25:35

location of Hayes' car. This

25:37

is the only time that day

25:40

that the phone pings that tower

25:42

and that sector, and the only

25:44

other time it pings that tower and sector

25:47

is on a later day when Jay

25:49

is arrested for an unrelated charge when

25:52

Adnan makes an outgoing call to Patrick,

25:55

one of Jay's friends.

25:57

At 8.04pm, an outgoing

25:59

call is made to Jen's pager. This

26:02

outgoing call, which no one disputes

26:04

is accurate, is pinging the sector

26:07

covering where Hay's car will

26:09

be found. This tower

26:11

has coverage of the car dump

26:13

location, though not the other important

26:16

spots like the park and ride or the burial

26:18

site, indicating the cell

26:20

phone has moved away from the burial site

26:22

to the car location. At 805,

26:26

an outgoing call is made to

26:28

Jen's pager. This

26:30

call is now in the sector west

26:32

of the car dump location, indicating

26:35

the cell phone is moving away from that

26:37

location and towards where Jen will

26:39

pick up Jay. 901pm,

26:41

the

26:43

next call is an outgoing call made

26:46

almost an hour later.

26:48

It's Tunisia, and it's pinging

26:50

the tower and sector covering

26:53

Adnan's home. So

26:55

that is

26:56

a summary of what the cell phone

26:59

pings tell us.

27:01

And it maps on incredibly

27:04

well to the basic story that we know emerges

27:06

between Jay and Jen's story. And

27:08

though we've talked about how Jay's story

27:11

changes or he lies at times, we

27:14

have talked in detail about

27:16

how it is very unlikely for

27:19

Jen to have been lying. She was

27:21

there talking to the police with her mother

27:23

and an attorney there. She knew things

27:25

that she didn't know how it fit into the

27:28

big picture of Adnan

27:30

and Jay's story. And everything she was

27:32

being told was told to her secondhand

27:35

by Jay.

27:36

And I think it's incredibly important to note just

27:38

yet again that Jen and Jay were

27:40

best friends. They hung out just about every day,

27:43

playing video games at Jen's house. They

27:45

were really connected at the hip it seemed.

27:48

Adnan and Jen, not so much.

27:50

They didn't have that type of relationship. They

27:53

barely knew each other. And as far

27:55

as we know, they really didn't hang out together

27:58

at all, especially because

27:59

Jay and Adnan claim they didn't

28:02

hang out that much with each other. So

28:04

the cell phone pings, there

28:06

are a lot of them. And they're consistent

28:09

with the general story told by Jay

28:11

and Jen. Now look,

28:14

the times don't always match.

28:16

And there are some ancillary details that are probably

28:18

wrong side trips that clearly didn't happen,

28:20

at least the way we were told, or on the day

28:23

they were suggested.

28:26

And this is real life.

28:29

This is a real life case.

28:31

It's not a movie.

28:32

There are Chekhov's guns in real life.

28:36

Just because a gun shows up in the first act in

28:38

real life doesn't mean it's going to go off. And

28:40

there are always going to be things in

28:42

the story that don't fit and that you

28:45

won't know. And this is certainly one

28:47

of those cases. You will never know

28:49

everything that happened that day. And

28:52

you will never know every single

28:54

step that Jay and

28:56

Jen and Adnan took.

28:59

But

29:00

what I think we can say for certain

29:02

is the cell phone is everywhere it needs to

29:04

be. When it needs to be there for

29:06

Jay's story to work, we don't

29:09

see random pings all over

29:11

the city of Baltimore. We see outgoing

29:13

calls and incoming calls that are near

29:16

in time pinging the same towers.

29:19

We see calls, the timing of which

29:21

perfectly fits the burial story. The

29:23

cell phone goes from Woodlawn to Jay's

29:25

grandmothers to Jen's to the Best

29:28

Buy, back to Woodlawn, down

29:30

to Christie's, up to the burial site, over

29:32

to the car dump location, back towards

29:35

the mall where Jen picked up Jay.

29:38

And then back to Adnan's house at exactly

29:40

the time you would expect.

29:42

So did Adnan do it?

29:45

Or is it a coincidence?

29:47

Did the calls match because

29:49

the police fed Jen and Jay

29:52

the story to make it match?

29:59

whether Adnan asked Hye for a ride that day,

30:02

but a funny thing has happened over the last

30:04

20 years. Even though

30:06

Adnan's story hasn't changed, it

30:09

seems that most of his supporters don't

30:11

believe him.

30:13

No one seems to believe that Adnan did

30:15

not ask Hye for a ride on January

30:18

13th. Some speculate that

30:20

it was a short trip. Adnan just wanted

30:22

Hye to give him a short ride around the school property

30:25

as she'd often done so he wouldn't have to walk

30:27

down to the football field for practice.

30:31

Again, to not

30:33

have to walk that desist to go track practice is

30:35

just something I have to kind of chuckle at a little bit.

30:38

Adnan didn't like to walk. He does not like to walk. We've

30:40

already covered this in detail before. There's

30:44

another explanation. That Adnan

30:46

asked for a ride but never took it because

30:48

Hye backed out.

30:50

As we said back in our episode

30:52

discussing the events of January 13th,

30:55

one of Adnan and Hye's mutual friends, Becky,

30:58

would tell police that she overheard Hye

31:00

tell Adnan she couldn't give him a ride

31:03

after all because she had something to do.

31:06

We initially said that Becky didn't testify

31:08

about this at trial, but she

31:10

kind of did, though what she

31:12

said isn't as straightforward as what she

31:15

told

31:15

the police. At trial, Becky

31:18

only said that Hye had plans that

31:20

day, but Hye didn't tell Becky

31:22

what those plans were. They

31:25

could have been meeting Adnan, but

31:27

what Becky didn't testify to

31:30

is that Hye couldn't take

31:32

Adnan somewhere because of her plans,

31:35

whatever they were.

31:37

This is interesting, though the story

31:39

that Hye told Adnan she couldn't drive him

31:41

has been bolstered by Aisha,

31:44

who many years later would recall telling

31:46

Krista the same thing on a telephone

31:48

call after Hye went

31:50

missing.

31:51

But here's the problem. The

31:54

one person who's never said any

31:56

of this is Adnan. And

31:59

in fact, the night of Hay's disappearance,

32:02

he told Officer Adcock that Hay

32:04

was supposed to give him a ride, but

32:06

that by the time he arrived at the designated

32:08

spot,

32:09

she was gone.

32:11

If Hay had told him that very day

32:14

that she couldn't take him somewhere,

32:16

why didn't he tell Adcock that?

32:20

Wouldn't that have been a pertinent piece

32:22

of information to tell a police officer

32:25

when your very good friend

32:27

had disappeared? And

32:29

why did he change his story on February 1st

32:32

and tell a different officer that he didn't

32:34

ask Hay for a ride at all? A story

32:36

that he has stuck to all these

32:39

years.

32:40

The timeline here is instructive, and

32:42

we want to give a shout out,

32:44

and I'm being absolutely sincere in

32:46

this, to just wondering if, who

32:48

is a Reddit poster, for helping us out

32:51

on this. If you want to take a look at this yourself, it's

32:53

on the Adnan Syed subreddit.

32:57

According to Krista, and

32:58

I believe this is from her appearance on Bob

33:00

Ruff Show, she found out that afternoon,

33:03

the afternoon Hay was missing, she finds out

33:05

that she's missing, and she calls Aisha

33:08

or Aisha calls her. She doesn't remember who makes the call,

33:10

but she knows they talked. And either way, Krista

33:12

tells Aisha, in this conversation,

33:15

and this is what she said, okay, well you know,

33:18

Adnan was supposed to get a ride from her, or whatever.

33:20

Has anybody checked with him? At 607,

33:23

young Lee calls Adnan

33:27

with a number he thinks is Don's

33:29

number. At around the same

33:31

time, Aisha is speaking to Officer

33:34

Adcock, and relays to him what Krista

33:36

has told her. Adnan was supposed to get

33:38

a ride from Hay. At 609,

33:42

Adnan gets an incoming call. We cannot

33:44

know for sure who it's from, but it's

33:47

widely believed that it is from Aisha telling

33:49

Adnan that the police will contact him

33:51

about Hay. This means two

33:54

things.

33:55

First, Adcock calling

33:57

Adnan isn't a lark or a coincidence.

33:59

He is calling Adnan because he already

34:02

knows from Ayesha that Adnan was

34:04

supposed to get a ride from Hei.

34:06

And two, Adnan knows that

34:08

Adcock knows about the ride.

34:10

In that moment, there's only one thing

34:12

he can do.

34:14

Admit that indeed he was supposed to get a

34:16

ride from Hei.

34:18

There are a couple possibilities about

34:20

why he thought this was the only response

34:23

he could give. The first is that

34:25

Becky is mistaken about the day that

34:27

Hei told Adnan she couldn't drive

34:30

him. Becky's wrong, so

34:32

that excuse wasn't available to Adnan.

34:35

But the fact Adnan said what

34:37

he did doesn't necessarily mean

34:39

that Becky and Ayesha are later wrong

34:41

about what Hei told him. It

34:44

may well be the case that Hei did

34:46

tell Adnan she couldn't take him and

34:48

Becky overheard him. But what

34:51

it means for sure is that if that

34:53

happened,

34:55

Adnan wore her down

34:57

eventually.

34:58

If Hei had simply not given

35:01

him a ride because she couldn't take him,

35:04

Adnan would have said just that.

35:06

It's an easy excuse, and it has

35:08

the benefit of being true.

35:11

But he didn't say that.

35:12

There's only one reason that would be.

35:15

In the moment, he panicked. He couldn't

35:17

call Krista and Ayesha a liar, and he

35:19

couldn't deny the ride. He had

35:22

to own it. If he'd had more

35:24

time to think, or had smoked less pot

35:26

that day, or had been quicker on his feet,

35:29

he could have said that Hei said she had something

35:31

to do. But he didn't think to say that,

35:33

because that was an obstacle he'd

35:36

already overcome.

35:38

So he said he was supposed to get a ride

35:40

with her, but she left without him.

35:42

Later on, he would realize this

35:44

was a huge mistake. One

35:46

of the keys to his guilt. So

35:48

he took the position from that point forward

35:51

that this conversation never happened.

35:53

That he never asked Hei for a ride

35:56

at all.

35:57

But by then it was too late. all

36:00

these years later, even with his key

36:02

supporters offering excuse after

36:04

excuse about why he asked for

36:07

the ride or what happened with it.

36:09

He's been stuck with the story he told.

36:11

That ride that Adnan asked for,

36:14

the ride he's lied about for 20 years,

36:17

the ride he told listeners of Cyril he'd

36:19

never asked for

36:21

because Hay had to go get her cousin.

36:23

Even though he'd been having

36:25

sex with Hay in the Best Buy parking lot

36:27

between school letting out and her picking up

36:30

her cousin for months before

36:32

they broke up.

36:34

This is just one of the pieces of evidence

36:36

you must discount to believe

36:39

Adnan is innocent and that

36:41

brings us to where we typically

36:44

end up.

36:46

It comes down to what it often comes down

36:48

to for us.

36:49

What would you have to believe

36:52

to believe that Adnan did

36:54

not commit this crime?

36:57

First, you'd have to believe

36:59

that Jennifer Pusateri, who talked to

37:01

police with her lawyer and mother present, either

37:03

told a false story to protect Jay and

37:06

frame Adnan or is manipulated

37:08

by the police once again with her lawyer

37:10

present into telling the story they wanted

37:12

to hear to frame Adnan all by the

37:14

way while possibly implicating herself

37:17

in the crime.

37:18

And the police did this to

37:20

set up Jay to be

37:22

the key witness in this entire scheme, even

37:25

though at the time they talked to Jen there's

37:27

no evidence they even knew who Jay was.

37:30

And if they did, what they would have known

37:33

is that Jay was a drug dealing black

37:36

man with a record. And yet

37:38

you'd have to believe that

37:40

in 1999, the Baltimore police, when

37:44

they talked to Jen, they'd already decided

37:46

to make Jay the linchpin of

37:48

this entire framing scheme.

37:51

You'd then have to believe that that

37:53

very night Jay either told the same

37:56

false story to frame Adnan or

37:58

the police fed him the same story.

37:59

story they'd given to Jen while

38:02

she was in the presence

38:04

of her attorney. If

38:06

you believe the police are framing Adnan by

38:08

using Jay, you'd also have to believe

38:10

that the police would rather frame the top

38:13

student, athlete, popular kid

38:15

at the local magnet program, rather

38:17

than framing the black, drug dealing

38:20

hoodlum, who arguably has as much

38:22

evidence against him as Adnan does, or

38:24

even the streaking community college

38:26

handyman who had found the body

38:29

and failed a polygraph. You'd

38:31

have to believe that the police correctly gambled

38:33

that these two teenagers, Jen

38:36

and Jay, could pull this framed job off

38:38

and never come clean over the decades

38:41

that followed, even with all

38:43

the pressure to do

38:44

so after serial. You'd

38:47

have to believe that all the outgoing calls

38:50

on Adnan's phone and the

38:52

incoming calls, many of which are

38:54

made while Adnan and Jay are together and to people

38:56

that one or the other of them know, but are

38:58

not known to the other, just so

39:01

happen

39:01

to match the locations you would expect

39:03

them to be if Jay and Adnan

39:06

were disposing of Hay's car and

39:08

body, as Jay said, and just

39:10

so happen to occur at the exact

39:12

times necessary for Adnan

39:15

to have murdered Hay and for this police

39:17

conspiracy to come off.

39:19

And that's not all you have to believe. To believe that

39:22

the police are feeding a story to Jay to match

39:24

the cell phone towers, you'd have to believe that

39:26

police had that good and understanding of

39:28

cell phone towers that early in the investigation,

39:32

not to mention that early into the history

39:34

of cell site analysis itself, despite

39:37

evidence the police were simultaneously

39:39

asking AT&T for evidence they

39:42

already had. But you'd also

39:44

have to believe at the same time that they

39:46

are incompetent enough to feed

39:49

Jay an overly

39:49

complicated story that doesn't fit

39:52

the times and includes events that

39:54

could not have happened. On

39:56

the other hand, their sophisticated manipulators

39:59

can c- the ultimate scheme to frame

40:01

Adnan. On the other hand,

40:04

I don't know how many hands you have, they're completely

40:06

incompetent, expecting Jay

40:08

to be able to pull off this incredibly

40:10

complicated story they've concocted rather

40:13

than feeding him a simple, easy

40:15

to remember story without all the

40:17

complications of real life.

40:20

Then there are the incoming calls that

40:23

ping the Lekin Park Tower in

40:25

precisely the timeframe Jay and

40:27

Jen say Jay and Adnan were bearing

40:29

Hay's body there.

40:31

Even if you don't believe the FBI

40:33

cast expert that incoming calls

40:36

can be used to accurately locate a

40:38

stationary cell phone, you'd

40:40

have to believe that of all the towers

40:42

in the city, the phone could coincidentally

40:45

ping at that time. They ping

40:47

the tower that would most incriminate

40:50

Adnan, a tower that his phone

40:52

pinged only one other time.

40:55

The day Jay was picked up on

40:57

an unrelated charge. And

41:00

you'd have to believe that when the

41:02

police spoke to Jay the first time, even

41:04

though they lacked the cell phone location

41:06

data at that time, they nevertheless

41:09

concocted a story that would fit

41:11

what that data later said, including

41:14

the location and time of Hay's

41:16

burial and the location and

41:18

time of her car drop off.

41:21

Let's talk about the car.

41:23

That Jay knew the location of the

41:25

car is one of the biggest pieces

41:28

of evidence against Adnan. I

41:30

would go so far to say that

41:32

if Jay had been struck by a bus on

41:35

the way across the street to talk to the police

41:37

for the first time and his dying words

41:39

were that Adnan did it

41:41

and the location of the car, that

41:43

would be enough.

41:44

That's one reason Jay's inconsistencies

41:47

are interesting, but not definitive. The

41:50

location of the car

41:51

is enough

41:53

to overcome Jay's knowledge of the car's

41:55

location.

41:56

You'd have to believe that the police and not

41:58

Jay

41:59

location of Hayes car and left it in the

42:02

elements for days, weeks, or

42:04

even more than a month rather than taking

42:06

the car into custody, processing

42:08

it for the enormous amount of possible

42:11

evidence it might contain. And then simply

42:13

feeding the location where they'd found

42:15

the car to Jay or some other witness

42:18

at a later date. You'd

42:19

have to believe that the police found the car after

42:22

they found Hayes body, or else

42:24

you'd believe that they had the car while

42:26

she was simply missing and did

42:28

nothing with it

42:30

for a month on the off chance

42:32

she was a murder victim and they could use it

42:34

later on to frame someone. You'd

42:37

have to believe that despite investing in this

42:39

thorough going frame job and having no compunctions

42:42

about pending a murder on an innocent man, rather

42:44

than simply planting incriminating evidence

42:47

against Adnan in the car, while they had it, they

42:49

instead depended on cell phone evidence.

42:52

They didn't really understand and had never really

42:54

used before.

42:55

And the story of a drug dealer to secure

42:57

their conviction. And you'd have to

42:59

believe that they knew enough about

43:01

the cell phone location information at the

43:04

time they first met Jay to plant the

43:06

car in the precise place it would

43:10

need to be to match up with

43:12

the cell phone information they

43:14

would later discover somehow that

43:16

day or even earlier, the police knew

43:19

that the cell site analysis would

43:21

reveal that the cell phone pinged on January

43:24

13th over the very location

43:26

the police would dump the car at the time

43:28

that would make sense for the car

43:30

to have been dumped there by Adnan and Jay.

43:34

And they use this knowledge so Jay

43:36

would get the car's location

43:38

right. But despite taking this extreme step,

43:40

they didn't use the other knowledge they

43:43

had from the cell phone to ensure that the rest

43:45

of Jay's first story

43:46

perfectly lined up what the cell

43:48

location data would later show. And

43:52

you'd have to believe that this is one of,

43:54

if not the most egregious examples

43:56

of police misconduct in the history of

43:59

policing.

43:59

This is not tunnel vision, or confirmation

44:02

bias, or withholding exculpatory

44:04

evidence, or planting a gun, or

44:06

some blood, or some dope. This

44:09

is a full-scale, coordinated scheme

44:11

to frame Adnan, a

44:14

17-year-old boy with no particular

44:16

notoriety.

44:18

Maybe you're thinking to yourself, yes, but

44:20

this is Baltimore, and one of the investigators

44:23

in this case has been cited for misconduct

44:25

before, and had cases overturned

44:27

before.

44:28

Let's take a look at that allegation, because

44:31

it's instructive, and we can look no

44:33

further than state attorney's motion to

44:35

vacate Adnan's conviction for how

44:38

it's described. And now I'm reading

44:40

from the filing.

44:41

In the Bryant case, it was alleged

44:44

in the complaint that Detective Ritz failed

44:46

to disclose exculpatory and

44:48

impeachment evidence and fabricated

44:51

evidence. More specifically, it

44:53

was alleged that Detective Ritz, quote,

44:56

obtained a misidentification of

44:58

Mr. Bryant from Taisha Powell,

45:01

the single eyewitness presented

45:03

at trial. Detective Ritz failed

45:05

to disclose evidence about a second

45:08

eyewitness whose account contradicted

45:10

and undermined Taisha

45:11

Powell's.

45:12

He also failed to disclose incriminating

45:15

evidence pointing to the likely

45:17

true perpetrator, John Doe, including

45:20

a witness statement incriminating Doe and

45:23

undermining his denials of culpability,

45:26

and a composite sketch that more closely

45:28

resembled Doe than Mr. Bryant.

45:31

Plaintiffs claim that when Detective Ritz

45:33

met with Ms. Powell and another

45:35

detective to create a composite sketch

45:38

of the suspect, Detective Ritz

45:40

used direct or indirect suggestion

45:42

to manipulate the composite

45:45

sketch to make it more closely resemble

45:47

the person he suspected, Malcolm

45:50

Bryant. Plaintiffs also

45:52

claim Detective Ritz showed Ms.

45:55

Powell a suggestive photographic

45:57

lineup consisting of six individuals,

45:59

including

45:59

including Malcolm Bryant.

46:02

In addition to the alleged misconduct

46:04

during Ms. Powell's interview, plaintiffs

46:07

claimed Detective Ritz never interviewed

46:09

or conducted any follow-up investigation

46:11

regarding any of the individuals with

46:14

whom Mr. Bryant had spent the evening

46:16

of November 20th, who could have

46:18

provided an alibi for him.

46:21

Detective Ritz also allegedly

46:23

failed to investigate other evidence

46:26

of Bryant's whereabouts on the night of the murder.

46:29

Additionally, plaintiffs allege Detective

46:31

Ritz did not disclose to Mr. Bryant,

46:34

Mr. Bryant's counsel, or the prosecutor

46:36

some of the evidence he obtained that

46:38

incriminated another suspect, and

46:41

he did not conduct proper interviews

46:43

about or of the suspect. Closing

46:46

in on this last paragraph, plaintiffs

46:49

also allege the police received

46:51

three 911 calls on

46:53

the night of the murder, one

46:55

of which was from a potential eyewitness

46:58

whose account of the crime contradicted

47:01

Ms. Powell's account. Plaintiffs

47:03

claim Detective Ritz did not investigate

47:05

this potential witness's report and

47:08

never disclosed the report of the

47:10

second potential eyewitness,

47:12

or the other 911 calls to Mr. Bryant,

47:15

Mr. Bryant's counsel, or the prosecution.

47:19

Plaintiffs also claim the defendants never tested

47:21

critical items of evidence obtained from

47:23

the crime scene for DNA, which would

47:26

have exonerated Mr. Bryant.

47:29

These are incredibly troubling allegations,

47:32

but they are also believable in what

47:34

they allege.

47:35

Tunnel vision,

47:36

confirmation bias, failure to

47:38

turn over information, failure to

47:41

investigate.

47:42

When you see a police officer

47:44

bungal an investigation, and we've covered

47:47

those instances in past episodes, or

47:49

even engage in corruption that

47:51

leads to a false conviction, this

47:54

is the pattern you see,

47:57

but this kind of activity pales

47:59

in

47:59

comparison to the level of police

48:02

misconduct you'd have to believe was at

48:04

work here, one involving

48:07

multiple homicide detectives as well

48:09

as beat cops.

48:12

Let's be clear here.

48:14

It is not enough to believe

48:17

that Jay was coached by the police.

48:20

It is not enough to believe that

48:22

the police use the cell phone evidence

48:24

to tap, tap, tap their way to a

48:26

more coherent story by

48:28

Jay. It is not enough to

48:30

believe police massaged the facts or

48:32

gave Jay critical information or

48:35

even planted evidence. Do

48:37

not lie to yourself. You

48:40

have to believe that the Baltimore police

48:42

concocted this entire

48:44

story with a plan to frame

48:47

Adnan from the ground up to the

48:49

extent of keeping the car hidden till

48:51

the right minute and then feeding every

48:53

single detail to both Jay and

48:56

Jen to make sure the plan would work.

48:58

They then used the unbelievable coincidence

49:01

that Jay and Adnan were together the

49:03

entire evening with the phone

49:06

pinging in all the right places at

49:08

all the right times to secure their story

49:11

and the conviction. And they used this

49:14

even though

49:14

when they concocted the plan

49:16

they would have had no way to know what

49:18

specific information the cell phone would tell

49:20

them. That is what you must believe

49:23

every single piece of

49:25

it. This would go far beyond

49:28

coaching a witness. If Mark Furman

49:31

planted a bloody glove on O.J.'s

49:33

property to frame him, that conspiracy

49:36

would pale in comparison to

49:38

what would be necessary to frame Adnan.

49:41

And if it's true, not only should Adnan

49:44

be exonerated, Baltimore should be conducting

49:47

a criminal investigation of every single

49:49

officer involved in this case. And

49:51

someone should not only be going to prison,

49:54

but someone else should be making a Hollywood

49:56

movie. The only problem is if

49:58

that story I just told you is not true. told you were fiction,

50:01

it would be too unbelievable to work." But

50:04

they're not launching a full-scale investigation.

50:07

And they won't, because no one really believes

50:09

that's what happened.

50:11

And the only alternative that makes sense is

50:13

that Jay did it.

50:14

But as we talked about in our last episode,

50:17

he has no real motive, and because Adnan put

50:19

himself with Jay for most of the evening, and

50:21

the Nisha call puts Jay with him the only

50:23

other time that matters no

50:26

opportunity to commit the crime either.

50:28

Unless he's helping Adnan do

50:31

it.

50:32

Adnan Syed was found guilty by a jury

50:34

beyond any reasonable doubt for the murder of

50:36

Hey Min Lee. Perhaps one day

50:39

there will be evidence that undermines that conviction

50:41

and creates reasonable doubt for us. Maybe

50:43

the touch DNA on Hey Sheeze will come back

50:45

to a serial killer working in the area.

50:48

Or maybe

50:49

the spot unprecedented focus

50:51

on this case and an unprecedented

50:53

effort to prove Adnan innocent.

50:56

One fact keeps getting in the way.

50:59

Adnan Syed is guilty.

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So that's our conclusion. We know you're not all going

56:20

to agree with it, and that's fine. I

56:22

want you to do one thing. This is

56:25

not the only story that's been told about

56:27

what happened

56:28

that day. There are other stories that have been told,

56:30

and some of them have been by people who deeply believe

56:33

in Adnan Syed's innocence. On

56:36

the website, prosecutorspodcast.com,

56:38

we're going to include a link to

56:40

Colin Miller's theory about this case. I think

56:42

he calls it the most likely scenario. It's

56:45

the scenario he believes is most likely. He obviously

56:47

believes Adnan is innocent. He is one of the hosts

56:50

of Undisclosed. I think a better way

56:52

to describe his theory is what

56:54

had to happen if Adnan Syed

56:57

is innocent. We're not going to go into it.

56:59

I want you to read it for yourself.

57:00

I want you to read the theory for yourself, knowing

57:03

everything you know. I want you to compare it to

57:05

what you've heard from us, and I want you to decide for

57:08

yourself what you think is the

57:10

most likely, most believable thing

57:12

that happened that day. Is it the

57:14

story, the most likely story, as

57:17

Colin says, or do you think it's something

57:20

that has more to do with

57:23

Adnan's involvement? Now,

57:26

we have a lot of things we're going to talk about,

57:28

but one thing we promised you is our own

57:30

theory. I don't know if Alice has a theory that she's developed

57:33

or not. I actually

57:34

don't know what your theory is in detail. We

57:37

are on the same page that we believe Adnan

57:39

is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but I actually don't know

57:41

what your theory is, and I have thought a lot about this.

57:44

So I'd like to hear yours.

57:46

Okay, and I want to give it. Imagine

57:49

that, Brett. I've

57:52

thought about this a lot, about what I think happened.

57:54

And I said at the earlier, one

57:56

of the earlier episodes, and I don't remember which one, that

57:59

I didn't actually. think this was a premeditated murder.

58:02

Then I thought this was a crime of passion. And

58:04

I know a lot of people disagree with that. And one thing

58:07

I want to say is I think when

58:09

you try and draw some sort

58:11

of

58:12

hard and fast line between premeditated

58:15

and a crime of passion, I think that's a mistake. I

58:18

think there are elements of premeditation in this case,

58:20

but I actually think

58:22

it's the reason I think it's not premeditated is because

58:25

I think Adnan had a false

58:27

hope. And I think the false hope is

58:29

what actually

58:31

led to the murder in the first

58:33

place.

58:34

So let's go all the way back to the

58:36

beginning and talk about what we know. We know that

58:39

the night before Hey disappears,

58:41

Adnan, she's on the phone with Don.

58:43

Adnan is trying to call her sensibly

58:46

to give her his phone number.

58:48

The other thing we know is that they

58:51

had had this really passionate relationship. It

58:53

was one that affected Adnan a

58:55

lot. I don't think anybody denies that. They'd

58:57

been broken up for about

59:00

a month, but really things

59:02

had taken a turn in those

59:04

days leading up to her death. On Christmas,

59:06

they're giving each other expensive gifts. When

59:09

Hey gets to a car wreck, she's not just

59:11

calling Don, she's calling Adnan to come down

59:13

and take a look at it. And I think even asking Adnan

59:16

for rides at that point, but sometime

59:19

about a week before there'd been a big change. We talked

59:21

so much about that AIM profile and you

59:23

guys may think this is funny, but it's not. That

59:25

was a huge deal and it was indicative

59:28

of a change in Hey's mindset.

59:30

It is quite possible that on Christmas of 1998,

59:34

both Hey and Adnan thought they would get

59:36

back together at some point. But I

59:38

think by January 13th,

59:40

Hey had moved on.

59:42

I don't think Adnan had. And

59:44

I think Adnan had a plan for the 13th.

59:47

I think he planned to get into Hey's

59:49

car and I think he intended to

59:51

try and win her back. A

59:54

lot of what I'm going to say here is obviously speculation.

59:56

We'll never know the exact truth unless

59:59

Adnan tells you. us one day or unless

1:00:01

it turns out that we're wrong and now it's innocent

1:00:03

and we get either evidence of another killer

1:00:06

or someone else confesses. But I think based

1:00:09

on a few facts we know this is what happened

1:00:11

and I'll lay out some of those facts and you guys can

1:00:13

judge for yourself. One thing we know

1:00:15

is that Adnan told multiple people about

1:00:18

a conversation he and Hay had where

1:00:20

Hay attempted to get back together with him where

1:00:23

Hay asked him to go to prom and

1:00:25

he said no. He told her no

1:00:28

I'm fine with our relationship the way it is.

1:00:29

I think both Alice and I indicated

1:00:32

we think like many lies

1:00:34

there was some truth to that lie. That conversation

1:00:36

was had but it was the opposite of

1:00:39

what Adnan

1:00:40

said. I think that morning he made an

1:00:42

effort to get into Hay's

1:00:44

car. I think he asked her for a

1:00:46

ride. I think she said yes

1:00:49

but I

1:00:50

actually think it's possible that Becky is

1:00:53

right.

1:00:54

That what Becky heard when

1:00:56

Hay told Adnan she had something else to do was

1:00:58

real. But I think what Hay was doing

1:01:01

was making up an excuse and I based this

1:01:03

and this is a little bit of a stretch but I based

1:01:06

this on Hay's behavior at lunch. We talked

1:01:08

about this. One of her other friends it might even

1:01:10

have been Becky said that

1:01:13

they saw Hay in the lunchroom and

1:01:15

she seemed wistful and they asked

1:01:18

her what are you thinking about and she said Don

1:01:20

and we kind of

1:01:22

flippantly interpreted that

1:01:24

back in our first episodes as she was sort of

1:01:26

daydreaming about Don but I wonder

1:01:29

if that's actually what it was. I wonder if

1:01:31

Hay was feeling a little guilty. She's in

1:01:34

love with Don. She's in a very

1:01:36

sort of for her serious relationship with

1:01:38

him and yet she's still doing things

1:01:40

with and for her former boyfriend

1:01:43

Adnan and I kind of wonder if at lunch she felt

1:01:45

a little guilty about that and I wonder if after

1:01:48

lunch she told Adnan you know what

1:01:50

I'm not going to be able to take you

1:01:53

but I also wonder if Adnan being charming

1:01:56

and convincing convinced her that

1:01:59

she was his only

1:01:59

option. His car was in the shop and

1:02:02

he needed her help and at some point she

1:02:04

decided, okay

1:02:06

I will take you.

1:02:07

It's also possible as we said earlier that Becky

1:02:10

just got the story wrong and in fact

1:02:12

she was always gonna take Adnan but I think

1:02:14

by the time school let out that day

1:02:17

she was gonna take him.

1:02:19

We'll talk about the 236 call. The police

1:02:21

and the prosecution thought this was the come

1:02:24

get me call at Best Buy. I

1:02:26

think this call was more likely either

1:02:28

a call to Jay sort of get ready call

1:02:31

or possibly a call saying hey I am

1:02:34

going to be at the Best Buy at a certain time because

1:02:36

I think Adnan always intended

1:02:38

to take Hay to the Best Buy and always

1:02:41

knew that he would need a ride from the Best Buy however

1:02:43

things went because Hay was gonna have to go

1:02:45

get her

1:02:47

cousin. So there's that call. It's possible

1:02:50

that Jay leaves shortly after that as we've talked

1:02:52

about before if you look at the pings after

1:02:54

this call Jay moves slightly to the west

1:02:57

away from Jen's

1:02:59

house and I think at one point Jay even says

1:03:01

the second call the one from Adnan

1:03:04

who's now at the Best Buy he was driving

1:03:07

at the time so I think that would be consistent with that. That's

1:03:09

a little unclear. We can't know that for sure

1:03:11

but I think at some point there's an indication

1:03:14

hey

1:03:14

come to the Best Buy. I think it's also possible

1:03:17

that this call happened at the library. You

1:03:19

know we talked a lot about Asia's letters.

1:03:21

I kind of think Asia's telling the truth. I realized that's controversial.

1:03:24

A lot of people think she's lying. I kind of think she's telling

1:03:26

the truth. I just don't think it's that significant

1:03:29

in the grand scheme of things. At

1:03:31

that point

1:03:32

I think Adnan gets into the car

1:03:35

with Hay and I think he drives.

1:03:38

I think this was not that unusual

1:03:40

for Adnan. Adnan was in her car a

1:03:43

lot. There are fingerprints

1:03:45

in the car. We didn't even talk about that much because

1:03:47

the fact that Adnan's fingerprints are in the car

1:03:49

probably isn't all that significant. Adnan was

1:03:51

in her car all the time but I

1:03:53

think at this point

1:03:55

Adnan is driving her

1:03:57

car. I think he had told her hey I need to

1:03:59

take I need to drive to the shop, then I'll jump

1:04:01

out. You can get in your car. You can go get your cousin. I

1:04:04

think instead he took her to

1:04:06

a place

1:04:08

that was very special to both of them.

1:04:10

A place where they had a lot of good memories. I

1:04:12

think he took her to the best spot, not

1:04:14

necessarily because it was a secluded place

1:04:17

to murder someone, but because it was

1:04:19

a place filled with positive memories.

1:04:22

Alice and I talked about this at the very beginning.

1:04:25

Adnan is full of romantic

1:04:27

gestures and I think he thought this

1:04:30

one would work. And I think at

1:04:32

that time he asked her to go

1:04:34

to prom with him. And

1:04:36

I think she said no. I think Adnan got mad.

1:04:39

What exactly happened at that point is hard to say.

1:04:41

You can imagine him asking her why. Maybe

1:04:44

he asks her about Don. Maybe

1:04:46

he asks her if she and Don are

1:04:48

having sex.

1:04:49

At some point Adnan from the driver's

1:04:52

seat lunges at hay. She

1:04:54

hits her head on the door, the

1:04:56

passenger side door as he forces her back,

1:04:58

which would be consistent with the autopsy report

1:05:01

and the head trauma that

1:05:03

you see. He begins to strangle

1:05:06

her and she kicks up and hits

1:05:08

the windshield wiper bar knocking

1:05:10

it off of the steering column.

1:05:12

But she can't escape. And her attempt to tell

1:05:15

Adnan she is sorry, do not stop

1:05:17

him.

1:05:18

He kills her.

1:05:19

And at that point maybe he pulls down the seats

1:05:22

in the back, which open up to the trunk and rolls

1:05:24

her body into the trunk. Maybe he gets

1:05:27

out so he's no one is looking. It's secluded

1:05:29

and quickly moves her into the trunk.

1:05:32

Either way at that point he either calls Jay

1:05:35

or waits on him and the cover-up

1:05:37

is on. And there is one piece of evidence

1:05:40

that when I saw it

1:05:42

made me stop

1:05:44

what I was doing

1:05:45

and crystallized this

1:05:47

entire theory for me. And this

1:05:49

happens sometimes in a case. Sometimes

1:05:52

in a case you come across something

1:05:54

and you just think wow. And

1:05:56

the wow moment for me was

1:05:59

a photograph.

1:05:59

of the back of Hay's

1:06:02

car. And in that

1:06:04

photograph is a picture of

1:06:06

a map book. It's a map book that

1:06:08

Hay often kept in the driver's side

1:06:10

pocket of her car. The

1:06:13

map is open and in fact,

1:06:16

Adnan's fingerprints will be found on

1:06:18

that map.

1:06:19

Removed from the map book is a page

1:06:22

showing Lekin Park.

1:06:25

But that's not what got me.

1:06:27

It's what's sitting on

1:06:30

the map book. It is described

1:06:32

in the police inventory report as

1:06:34

a rose

1:06:36

and baby's breath

1:06:38

wrapped.

1:06:39

Adnan's prints, including his finger

1:06:41

and palm print, are found on the

1:06:43

floral paper, wrapped around the

1:06:45

rose and the baby's

1:06:48

breath. And that rose is sitting

1:06:51

on the open

1:06:53

map book. What was

1:06:55

the big moment for

1:06:58

their relationship? There are two of them. Junior

1:07:02

prom.

1:07:04

And when Adnan went out and bought a single

1:07:06

rose and brought it to class

1:07:09

and gave it to Hay

1:07:10

in front of

1:07:13

everyone. And

1:07:15

it was such a romantic moment. And

1:07:17

Hay was blown

1:07:19

away by it. And she writes in her diary

1:07:21

that she took that rose home and she put

1:07:23

it in a vase, the one from

1:07:26

the junior prom.

1:07:27

I think Adnan thought this was

1:07:29

going to be another one of those grand

1:07:31

gestures in the Best Buy parking

1:07:34

lot where they had had so

1:07:36

many loving moments and he was gonna pull

1:07:38

that rose out, relive that

1:07:40

moment,

1:07:41

ask her to go to prom and everything would

1:07:43

be okay. It would be back to the way

1:07:45

it was supposed to be. And she

1:07:47

said no.

1:07:50

And when she did that, it enraged

1:07:52

him. So much

1:07:54

that he murdered her. All right

1:07:56

Brett. You know, people always

1:07:58

ask if we ever disagree. today

1:08:02

might be one of those days because

1:08:04

for anyone who thinks that

1:08:06

you are too hard

1:08:08

on Adnan that you have your

1:08:10

mind made up about Adnan that he's

1:08:13

not as bad of a guy as

1:08:16

you've painted him to be I think

1:08:18

that you're actually an incredible softie on

1:08:21

him and here's why I

1:08:23

think we're looking at the same set of facts and

1:08:25

there's a lot of what you said that resonates

1:08:28

with me

1:08:28

but I do not think this is a crime of passion whatsoever

1:08:31

I think this was premeditated and

1:08:34

Adnan knew exactly what he was going

1:08:36

to do if hey

1:08:40

chose the wrong choice in a

1:08:43

lot of ways

1:08:44

that was the rose

1:08:45

she was given a choice and in his mind

1:08:48

she was the one sealing her own fate

1:08:51

she had one of two choices fall

1:08:54

back into his arms not simply

1:08:56

take him back but become be completely

1:08:58

swooned by him and

1:09:01

fall on her own sword realize

1:09:04

her own faults of falling for

1:09:07

some silly dawn this

1:09:10

wasn't just a I'll

1:09:12

take you back it was a please Adnan

1:09:15

take me back it was that or

1:09:17

she would die and here's why I think that

1:09:23

so premeditation and crime of passion

1:09:25

like you say it's a fine line and sometimes

1:09:27

it's hard to draw and really maybe

1:09:29

our disagreement is a disagreement of

1:09:32

on a spectrum but I think it's very

1:09:34

instructive for those of you who

1:09:36

grew up with like the Ten Commandments who maybe

1:09:38

grew up in church or studying

1:09:41

you

1:09:41

know thou shalt not murder if

1:09:44

you've ever been to like that even a child Sunday

1:09:46

school you've probably heard of

1:09:48

the teaching that murder is

1:09:50

more than just murder right

1:09:52

the Bible doesn't just say thou

1:09:54

shalt not murder it says you've

1:09:57

even committed murder if you hold

1:09:59

anger in your heart against your brother, something

1:10:02

like that. And I think that's instructive

1:10:04

here because there was a burning

1:10:07

anger towards Hay's actions

1:10:10

that he felt offended him.

1:10:12

And so little by little in his heart,

1:10:14

he was harboring murder-like anger towards

1:10:16

Hay, probably from about

1:10:19

the aim profile. So for a week,

1:10:21

it was building on top of each other. And he

1:10:23

even used the language of I'm going to kill her.

1:10:25

She's going to die. And

1:10:28

he used much more aggressive language than that

1:10:31

because I think in his eyes, his eyes were angry

1:10:34

with murder. And

1:10:36

if it were one day, perhaps

1:10:38

he could cool off. But as the week

1:10:40

built on and

1:10:42

his ego swelled and it swelled

1:10:44

and it swelled and he couldn't understand why

1:10:46

this time was different than all the other times they broke

1:10:49

up, that murderous rage was

1:10:51

beginning to blind him and it was becoming

1:10:54

exponential within his heart.

1:10:56

That's why we have people saying that he said

1:10:58

those words,

1:10:59

I'm going to kill her

1:11:01

well before the 13th.

1:11:04

I think he dreamed of killing her.

1:11:06

He was a passionate guy. He took

1:11:08

big gestures and I think

1:11:10

we'd all be lying if we didn't at some

1:11:13

point fantasize or have some

1:11:15

image of our mind of doing something incredibly

1:11:17

violent.

1:11:18

We are emotional creatures who

1:11:23

live out a lot of our fantasies in

1:11:25

our minds. And that's where it needs to stay. If

1:11:28

we're going to exist in this society where

1:11:30

there are rules, if you break those rules, you

1:11:32

get prosecuted for murder. But

1:11:34

all of us have murderous rage at some times.

1:11:38

Now, intensify that with

1:11:40

a lot of pot smoking and being 17 years old and

1:11:43

generally being a very egotistical

1:11:46

guy who was on top

1:11:48

of the world. He was prom prince and

1:11:51

he'd been able to swoon

1:11:54

hay over and over, but

1:11:56

all of a sudden he had lost his superpower.

1:11:59

She didn't look at him the same way. So

1:12:02

for that week, and it was a long week, a week

1:12:05

is long when you're 17, when you're a senior in

1:12:07

high school. Each day it built

1:12:10

and it built and it built. That

1:12:12

murderous rage was building with him hidden. And

1:12:15

that fantasy that he was living out in his head

1:12:17

of being able to vindicate himself,

1:12:20

either, I think there were two fantasies happening.

1:12:23

She was going to swoon for him again, or she

1:12:25

was going to die. Because

1:12:28

there was no one who could

1:12:31

hurt him that way without having to pay for

1:12:33

it. This was the just world that existed

1:12:35

in Adnan's brain.

1:12:39

And there are a couple things, this isn't just

1:12:41

trying to read into Adnan's head. There are a

1:12:43

couple things from the timeline that

1:12:46

make me convinced this was not merely a crime

1:12:48

of passion that happened in the car as he was trying

1:12:50

for the last time to win her over. And

1:12:52

when she said no, he couldn't believe it and he just

1:12:55

accidentally killed her.

1:12:57

I think he went into that day, the

1:13:00

13th, knowing that she would live if she

1:13:03

made the right choice or

1:13:05

she would die. There was no other option

1:13:08

and he would be the one to end her. And

1:13:11

this is because we know that Jay's

1:13:13

story has changed over time, but really honestly,

1:13:16

in the scheme of all the cases we've prosecuted,

1:13:18

Jay lies just about as much as every

1:13:20

other witness that we have, and we've said that before.

1:13:23

Jay knew the plan

1:13:26

the day before. I don't know whether

1:13:28

he believed it or not, but he knew

1:13:30

that

1:13:32

Adnan had murder on his

1:13:34

mind.

1:13:36

He may not even have justified it. He being

1:13:38

Adnan may not even have justified it as murder because he

1:13:40

thought perhaps there was no world

1:13:43

in which Hay couldn't choose

1:13:45

him.

1:13:47

If this was just about getting Hay alone

1:13:50

and winning her back over,

1:13:52

he did not need to leave his phone or

1:13:55

his car with Jay.

1:14:01

He thought about it the day before. He made the

1:14:03

plan the day before. I think it probably

1:14:05

crystallized around that 1145

1:14:07

midnight call to hay

1:14:09

when he was giving her all these chances. And

1:14:11

in his mind, he's thinking you are running out of chances,

1:14:13

woman.

1:14:14

The last chance is coming tomorrow.

1:14:17

And so when that last call came, and I think

1:14:19

it went down, not that she was begging to get back

1:14:21

together with him, but quite the opposite, he probably

1:14:25

debased himself for the first time in their

1:14:27

relationship to grovel to her. I

1:14:29

do think he groveled that day because

1:14:32

of the way he described how hay groveled

1:14:34

to him. I don't think he's ever done that

1:14:36

before. And when he hit that low bottom, he realized

1:14:38

there was no other way out. He

1:14:41

had become something other than what he knew himself

1:14:43

to be. He didn't even recognize himself. He

1:14:45

would never beg a girl to

1:14:47

like him. That wasn't Adnan.

1:14:50

And so

1:14:53

he'd been saying he was going to

1:14:54

murder hay. He didn't really

1:14:56

mean it. He kind of did. And that

1:14:58

fantasy was becoming clear and clear in his

1:15:00

mind and no longer living in his head. It was now

1:15:03

going to be outside of his body into

1:15:05

the reality of the world that he existed

1:15:07

in.

1:15:09

If he just wanted to get hay alone,

1:15:13

to convince her to get back together with him,

1:15:15

he did not need to leave

1:15:17

his car behind. Okay, fine.

1:15:20

Let's say he needed his car as an excuse

1:15:22

to get into hay's car. Leave

1:15:24

the car behind. It doesn't need to be with Jay. Even

1:15:26

he says that he doesn't know that well. He could

1:15:28

have parked his car somewhere. He

1:15:31

could have left his car at home. He could have driven it to

1:15:33

a shop and just parked it there for the day, pretending

1:15:35

to get an oil change. Why

1:15:38

did he leave his phone? The phone that he

1:15:40

had gotten the day before. A phone

1:15:42

that his parents didn't know about.

1:15:44

That Balal had to get for him and put under

1:15:47

Balal's name to activate that

1:15:49

phone

1:15:50

and give it to Jay. Jay didn't

1:15:52

need his phone. Jay didn't need to be part

1:15:54

of a plan to help Adnan

1:15:57

escape a crime scene. In

1:16:00

fact, it would only help Adnan's

1:16:03

case to have his cell phone on himself if

1:16:06

he were trying to get back together with Hye.

1:16:09

He could be texting her sweet nothings. He could

1:16:11

be calling her. He could be calling Misha

1:16:13

to make Hye jealous.

1:16:15

He didn't need his phone not to be on

1:16:18

his body in order to get alone with Hye.

1:16:20

Perhaps the car, but not the phone.

1:16:23

He made an elaborate plan to have both

1:16:26

the phone and the car be with Jay.

1:16:29

And he'd never done this with before.

1:16:33

And yes, he'd had sex with Hye

1:16:35

many times before at the Best Buy. And

1:16:37

perhaps in his mind, no matter

1:16:39

how this ended, whether she was going to take

1:16:41

him back or they had sex, that he

1:16:43

needed a ride because she needed to go get her

1:16:46

cousin. Except the problem

1:16:48

is by Adnan's own words, he

1:16:50

had had sex with Hye in that car in

1:16:52

the Best Buy parking lot many times before

1:16:55

and he'd never arranged a ride

1:16:57

before. So he'd either gone

1:16:59

with Hye to pick up her cousin or he

1:17:01

walked somewhere.

1:17:05

Or he arranged a ride with someone who was

1:17:07

not the person he thought to arrange it with that day,

1:17:09

if

1:17:09

it was just going to be like any other day.

1:17:12

Instead, he arranged it to be calling

1:17:15

someone on a phone he activated the day before

1:17:17

who he has never really hung out with before who doesn't

1:17:19

know that well

1:17:21

to come pick him up. And

1:17:23

he doesn't call him in a panic. He

1:17:25

calls him three times. He calls him.

1:17:28

Adnan calls Jay three times to ensure

1:17:30

that Jay has the phone,

1:17:33

that he can reach him and that he knows what the

1:17:35

plan is all before

1:17:37

the murder is supposed to have happened.

1:17:41

Because of all this, I think this falls well

1:17:43

into the bucket of premeditation.

1:17:46

And so when

1:17:50

we can talk about what happened that day, if he was in the library,

1:17:52

if he asked, he absolutely asked Hye

1:17:54

for a ride.

1:17:55

I think when he got into her car, whether

1:17:58

she said she couldn't give him a ride.

1:17:59

and he smoothed his way into her car, whatever

1:18:02

happened. He knew that she was

1:18:04

getting a

1:18:05

rose

1:18:06

and she had two choices. And what was

1:18:08

going to happen was up to her.

1:18:11

And that's why he's been able to walk around for the

1:18:13

last 20 years as if he's done nothing

1:18:15

wrong is because in his mind,

1:18:18

he thinks that she chose

1:18:19

her own fate. And

1:18:21

he was merely

1:18:23

following through with the laws of nature. She

1:18:25

had to die.

1:18:27

He didn't choose it. She had a choice.

1:18:30

And by choosing not

1:18:32

to add non, she was choosing

1:18:34

to die.

1:18:36

Everything's passive. Nothing was Adnan's

1:18:38

fault. And that's why I think

1:18:40

he can be someone who has a sterling record

1:18:42

in prison. He can be someone who

1:18:45

gets on a podcast and is able to win us

1:18:48

all over with his boy next door

1:18:51

sweetness. Because to

1:18:53

this day, he doesn't

1:18:55

recognize that

1:18:58

he is the one who murdered He. He

1:19:02

was the one who murdered He in Adnan's mind. And

1:19:04

that's why he is someone

1:19:07

I cannot begin to

1:19:10

have sympathies for. My

1:19:12

level of rage for what he has done to He and

1:19:15

what he's done to He's family and

1:19:18

the memory of He

1:19:19

and what he's done to everyone involved in this

1:19:22

case.

1:19:23

I don't just mean the people who testified at his trial. I

1:19:25

mean the people who have spent

1:19:28

their lives fighting for his innocence and

1:19:30

his freedom. He

1:19:32

knows exactly what he's

1:19:34

done. But he

1:19:37

continues to live in his fantasy land that

1:19:39

he is a sterling white

1:19:42

innocent flower who is the victim

1:19:45

of He's

1:19:47

decisions. And

1:19:50

I don't have a doubt that

1:19:53

the conviction was correct. Beyond

1:19:56

a reasonable doubt. I

1:19:59

love you. you, Alice.

1:20:02

Oh man,

1:20:04

I miss you. I miss you. Okay, truly, everyone watching

1:20:07

this, I didn't

1:20:09

know

1:20:13

what you were gonna say at all. I didn't know. I thought you were gonna

1:20:15

say premeditation to be honest. This

1:20:17

is why we let Alice do the rebuttal.

1:20:20

So let me just say, I don't

1:20:23

actually disagree with anything you said. I

1:20:25

think everything, I think all that's true.

1:20:27

I guess the only

1:20:29

twist on it, I

1:20:30

think he is, I think he was so arrogant

1:20:33

and confident that he really thought she

1:20:35

was gonna,

1:20:36

she was gonna say yes and come over to him. And

1:20:39

so when I, the rage, I guess I'm talking about the

1:20:41

rage, I think you're right. I think he had thought about killing

1:20:43

her before. He'd obviously talked to Jay about it.

1:20:45

I think some of it might have been bluster.

1:20:47

I think he was building himself up to do

1:20:50

that. I think everything you said is 100% right

1:20:52

about the way he looked at it though.

1:20:54

And I think her saying no to him was such

1:20:56

a triggering event for him that,

1:20:59

that yeah. And I would have no, when

1:21:01

I say crime of passion, I just,

1:21:03

I guess what I'm meaning is that sort of rage

1:21:05

that you described that came over him in

1:21:07

that moment. I think it's like, look, I have no problem

1:21:10

with him being convicted for premeditated murder because

1:21:12

I think he went into it prepared to

1:21:14

kill her if necessary, even if he

1:21:16

didn't believe it. You know what I mean? Sort

1:21:18

of hard to describe. Like I think he had thought about killing

1:21:20

her for all the reasons you said, but

1:21:23

like,

1:21:24

I mean, honestly, and I think you're

1:21:26

right. I am probably

1:21:28

more of a wimp than you are. I

1:21:30

always feel like, man, to kill somebody, you gotta be, you

1:21:32

gotta be, and I know that's not true. We talk

1:21:34

about it all the time. That's not true. That you have to be as angry

1:21:37

as people think, but I just feel like when she said no

1:21:39

to him, man, he became so mad that that

1:21:41

was, and it is a strangling crime,

1:21:43

very personal crime, very, you

1:21:46

know, emotional crime. I mean, it all fits,

1:21:48

but yeah, that was,

1:21:50

that was beautiful, Alice. That was beautiful. I

1:21:53

can see the argument. No, do not concede.

1:21:56

People always say we have to disagree. You know, it's almost

1:21:58

like if we, if a movie.

1:21:59

you were made about this, I would see

1:22:02

the week leading up to her murder where,

1:22:04

you know, you have like these hazy dreamlike sequences

1:22:07

in your mind and it's of him

1:22:09

strangling her. It's of him stabbing her.

1:22:11

It's of him killing her in different ways. That's all

1:22:13

in a dreamlike sequence. But as each day gets

1:22:15

closer to the 13th, the dreamlike

1:22:18

sequence gets clearer and clearer and clearer

1:22:20

until basically like the midnight of the 12th,

1:22:23

it's as if it were happening already.

1:22:25

That's kind of how I see it, right? Like the murderous

1:22:28

rage was building and it

1:22:30

maybe would have been a crime of passion seven

1:22:32

days prior, but by the day that it happened,

1:22:35

he absolutely knew what he was going to do, except

1:22:38

he was going to give her the decision.

1:22:42

Yeah. And I don't

1:22:44

know, you know, we got a lot of things we want

1:22:46

to talk about, about this case that I

1:22:48

think some of which goes into this.

1:22:52

It's pretty obvious how we feel about this. I mean, one thing I want to

1:22:54

say, because I want people to have all

1:22:56

the different views of this case, you guys know

1:22:59

there are a lot of other people who've talked about this case.

1:23:01

We've talked about it in even more depth than we have. Obviously,

1:23:04

if you disagree with us, or even if you just want to hear

1:23:07

sort of the different side,

1:23:09

undisclosed, highly

1:23:11

rated podcast, three lawyers in that podcast,

1:23:14

Robbie Achaudry, who knows Adnan as well as anybody,

1:23:17

they come to very different conclusions than we

1:23:19

do. They look at the evidence in very different ways.

1:23:23

I would like to think that a lot

1:23:25

of the facts we've said everybody

1:23:27

agrees on. Sometimes different

1:23:29

people look at things in different ways. Bob

1:23:32

Ruff,

1:23:33

the first

1:23:34

series, the first season of

1:23:37

his show, Truth and Justice, was called The

1:23:39

Serial Dynasty. He did that on

1:23:41

this case. You know, he reached

1:23:43

out to us, was very kind. I talked

1:23:46

to him about it. As I said to him, sometimes I

1:23:48

think this case is kind of like that dress, the

1:23:50

dress that was absolutely white and gold that some people

1:23:52

saw as blue and black. Like there are people

1:23:54

looking at the same dress, but different people see the exact

1:23:57

same dress different ways. Sometimes I think this

1:23:59

case is a little bit different.

1:23:59

it like that. I

1:24:00

wanted to point those out to you guys so you can hear them.

1:24:03

I mean, they're going to give you a very different view than

1:24:05

what we did. You know, one thing I want to say that

1:24:07

what I really appreciated about what Alice said

1:24:10

is this

1:24:10

case, I

1:24:13

have said before

1:24:15

that the most dangerous thing in a woman's life is

1:24:17

a man.

1:24:18

People think that's

1:24:21

controversial. Sadly,

1:24:23

sadly, the statistics, you know, I've

1:24:25

never even batted an eye when you said that because

1:24:27

it's so sad that it's true. We see that every

1:24:30

day in the statistics that bear out in the victims

1:24:32

that we, you know, are trying to vindicate in

1:24:34

our prosecutions. And so I know

1:24:36

a lot of you like laugh like, oh my goodness, Brett's saying

1:24:38

something really shocking. It's not shocking

1:24:40

at all. And if you think it's shocking, you need to take a

1:24:42

real look at some women in your

1:24:44

life who may be incredibly vulnerable.

1:24:46

Yeah. And that fact goes

1:24:49

to something.

1:24:52

There's this idea out there that,

1:24:54

you know, we're prosecutors, so we're automatically,

1:24:57

we're, we hate Adnan and we were going to come

1:24:59

into this trying to nail him to the wall. And,

1:25:01

you know, we're happy about this outcome. I am not

1:25:04

happy believing that Adnan Syed killed

1:25:06

Haman Lee.

1:25:07

I am not happy believing

1:25:09

that the last thing Haman

1:25:11

Lee saw was the same thing that too many

1:25:13

women see, which is someone that they

1:25:15

loved and who they thought loved them murdering

1:25:18

them.

1:25:19

That does not make me happy. It would be,

1:25:22

I would much rather think that

1:25:24

this was some sort of random crime

1:25:26

than to believe that Adnan

1:25:28

Syed is capable of doing this. But

1:25:31

I think when you look at the evidence, this

1:25:33

is where it leads wherever you want it to

1:25:35

lead. This is where it leads. Now

1:25:37

look,

1:25:38

we've talked about the evidence.

1:25:40

If one day it changes, I am

1:25:43

happy doing an episode with a mea

1:25:45

culpa. If, like I said, if

1:25:47

the, you know, they find Alonzo

1:25:50

Sellers DNA on Hayes shoes

1:25:52

and he confesses, I am more than happy

1:25:54

to come on here and I will be very happy to say

1:25:57

that Adnan Syed didn't do this.

1:26:00

based on the evidence we have, I

1:26:02

don't know how you can say that. And that doesn't make

1:26:04

me happy. It makes me very sad because

1:26:06

both of these people should have had

1:26:09

amazing lives. And because of what

1:26:11

Adnan did, both of those lives were

1:26:13

taken away.

1:26:14

No, I think that's absolutely right. Like I

1:26:16

have, you know, I have the high of giving a closing

1:26:18

argument like we do in trial. But at the end of the day,

1:26:20

you know, when a verdict is read in

1:26:23

our real trials, and when a sentence is

1:26:26

handed down, I feel no joy whatsoever. Because

1:26:28

we are looking at an incredibly

1:26:30

sad situation.

1:26:32

A lot of young lives were ruined. Same

1:26:34

with Adnan, by the way, right? Like he

1:26:36

is an incredible, he was an incredibly promising 17

1:26:39

year old. The world was

1:26:41

his oyster.

1:26:42

There could have been a totally different path

1:26:45

where Adnan is this just

1:26:48

stellar citizen. He had the potential to

1:26:50

be, he was absolutely on the path to be. And

1:26:52

we not only lost Hay,

1:26:54

we lost Adnan as well. Because

1:26:57

of his actions, he chose that path.

1:26:59

But he had the capability of being a contributing

1:27:01

member of society. And that makes me incredibly sad because,

1:27:04

you know,

1:27:05

I'm not in this position. I'm not, I didn't

1:27:07

become a prosecutor to stick

1:27:10

it to the man and, you know, put a bunch of people in

1:27:12

prison. Quite the opposite. I wish we didn't have

1:27:14

a job at all. And that's why this

1:27:16

case makes me so sad. Adnan

1:27:19

had every chance to be an

1:27:21

amazing citizen, a contributing member

1:27:23

of society.

1:27:25

And instead, we

1:27:27

have how many countless hours and Reddit

1:27:30

threads and good people

1:27:33

spending

1:27:34

countless hours that should be really

1:27:36

focused on like wrongful convictions

1:27:39

and other people who really

1:27:41

need representation. Instead,

1:27:43

we're like sitting here talking about

1:27:46

cell phone tower pings from a 20 year old

1:27:48

case. Like, I hope that we're

1:27:50

done with this case, because I want to focus our

1:27:52

energies on other cases. But I think this

1:27:54

was important because so much energy

1:27:57

has been spent on this case that I, we

1:27:59

needed

1:27:59

to see. speak up about it. And

1:28:02

I hope no one else, you know, they

1:28:04

can disagree with us, but I hope this kind

1:28:06

of at least focus your energies

1:28:08

elsewhere. Now we've talked

1:28:11

about this, you know, ad nauseam

1:28:14

and we didn't convince you. That's

1:28:16

okay, but

1:28:19

the evidence isn't going to change at this point.

1:28:20

And I think this goes to

1:28:23

the question of why we covered it at all. And there were a lot of people

1:28:25

who asked that because the case has been covered so

1:28:27

much, but I think Alice has answered that question.

1:28:30

I think both Adnan and

1:28:32

Hey

1:28:33

deserved it. I mean, I would like to think we bring

1:28:36

something different, you know, whenever

1:28:38

people ask us why we're covered in any case, I'm always

1:28:40

like, well, I mean, hopefully when you

1:28:42

listen to us cover case, you think it's a little different

1:28:45

perspective and I think we will do that. Look,

1:28:47

we're not the first people to say that we thought Adnan

1:28:49

was guilty or anything, though

1:28:52

I think the vast majority of people who've covered

1:28:54

this have. Number one,

1:28:56

come at it from a different perspective. And number

1:28:58

two, maybe not.

1:29:00

I mean, I don't want to be critical, but maybe not sort

1:29:02

of dug into the details as

1:29:04

much as we did with some of this and certainly

1:29:07

not with some of the expertise that I think I hope

1:29:09

we bring to it. And so that was one reason we want to do this because

1:29:12

I think both Adnan and Hey deserved that kind of coverage.

1:29:14

Hey, in particular, I mean, Hey deserves justice.

1:29:18

And the thing that makes me sad about this case is,

1:29:20

is I just, you know, I don't know that,

1:29:24

I mean, I don't know. I would,

1:29:26

the second question this brings up is should Adnan

1:29:28

have gotten out? I mean, some people have said, look, he spent 20

1:29:31

years in prison. He was 17 years old. I

1:29:33

get all that. The problem I have with this is he

1:29:35

still hasn't admitted he did it.

1:29:37

If Adnan said admitted, he did it

1:29:39

and express some remorse, I would have no problem

1:29:41

with him getting out. That would no problem with that at all.

1:29:44

You know, I think that would be, I

1:29:47

would like to think he's a different person today

1:29:49

than he was then. And I think all indications

1:29:51

are that he spent the last 20 years in prison becoming

1:29:54

a better person. And I hope that if

1:29:56

he remains out of prison, he will be a productive

1:29:58

member of society.

1:30:00

But he needs to admit what he did, and he needs to

1:30:02

give Hay and her

1:30:04

family that...

1:30:07

he needs to give them that closure. I don't know

1:30:09

how you can believe that Adnan is guilty, and

1:30:12

yet be fine with things the way

1:30:14

they are, no matter how much time he served in

1:30:16

prison.

1:30:17

Like Alice said, it's hard to feel sorry for this guy, right?

1:30:19

Particularly when he is revictimizing

1:30:21

Hay and her family every single day.

1:30:24

You know, one

1:30:26

thing I'll say, and then I don't want to keep talking

1:30:28

because

1:30:29

I want to hear Alice's brilliant thoughts.

1:30:31

I will say this,

1:30:33

right now this is in the Supreme Court of Maryland.

1:30:35

I don't know how that's going to go, because

1:30:37

the higher up you go and review,

1:30:40

the less it becomes about the case itself. I

1:30:42

think the Maryland Court of Appeals

1:30:45

was really troubled by the way

1:30:47

this case was vacated. I think you

1:30:49

see that in the way they wrote that opinion. I think

1:30:52

you see that in the footnotes. I think they

1:30:54

essentially thought this was a fraud on the court, which

1:30:56

is what I think it was. I think the whole vacation

1:30:58

was completely improper. I think it was an injustice.

1:31:01

It was a miscarriage of justice. The

1:31:03

problem is that case

1:31:06

hangs on such a narrow

1:31:08

thread, because there are big questions

1:31:10

about things that have nothing to do with this case, including

1:31:13

standing and victims' rights.

1:31:15

And we're going to have to see what the Maryland Supreme

1:31:18

Court does, because if they only worry

1:31:20

about victims' rights and standing, they

1:31:22

may go the other way. They may not

1:31:24

be as concerned with the facts of the case as

1:31:27

the Court of Appeals are. So I don't know what's going to happen

1:31:29

there. We'll follow that. We'll obviously

1:31:31

follow up with you. But if I had to

1:31:33

bet on this, and this is

1:31:35

going to make some people unhappy, but if I had to bet

1:31:37

on this, I would say it would not surprise

1:31:39

me if the Maryland Supreme Court decides

1:31:42

this case on some narrow standing question,

1:31:44

and basically says the victims don't

1:31:46

have standing to challenge these

1:31:48

kinds of things. We'll just have to see.

1:31:50

Yeah, I think that's... We'll see.

1:31:52

You know, this has had such public

1:31:55

opinion, and I think it's

1:31:58

worth noting. I know I kind of just...

1:32:00

You know, yelled at all of us, including ourselves,

1:32:03

for spending so much on this case. But I think this

1:32:05

case is really important because it does show

1:32:07

how powerful public opinion can

1:32:10

have on a case. You know, we all cheer for

1:32:12

the podcasts who get a

1:32:14

real wrongful conviction overturned. And

1:32:17

I think it's

1:32:18

very important to have people

1:32:20

who care about victims, who care

1:32:22

about people who are wrongfully convicted, to

1:32:25

never stop fighting. Absolutely.

1:32:27

I think

1:32:28

in this instance, it's just

1:32:30

completely misdirected on Adnan's

1:32:32

case, especially when you lay out all of the evidence,

1:32:34

and this is not a close call type of case. And

1:32:37

it's

1:32:38

honestly disparaging the

1:32:40

police at a time when, you know, public

1:32:43

opinion of police is not already very high. But

1:32:45

to believe this, like, insane

1:32:47

frame job is

1:32:50

not helping

1:32:51

victims. It's not helping other cases. And

1:32:54

so I just wish that this type of attention

1:32:56

were directed at

1:32:59

those who are deserving of the type of attention.

1:33:01

And we've talked about it before, and I'll say it again,

1:33:03

but cases like Temujin Kenzu and

1:33:06

not on

1:33:07

a clear cut case like Adnan's. One

1:33:10

thing I know Alice had mentioned, and we've mentioned this

1:33:12

throughout, is a

1:33:14

question that I don't know that we can ever really answer

1:33:16

is why Adnan trusted Jay? Why

1:33:19

Jay helped Adnan? And continues to be the

1:33:21

question we probably get asked the most.

1:33:23

And we've said from the beginning, I

1:33:26

don't really know what all went into that. I think we've

1:33:28

had some good theories about it.

1:33:30

But honestly, that's another one of those questions

1:33:32

I feel like only Adnan could really answer.

1:33:35

I tend to believe it's that he had known. I

1:33:37

mean, look, Stephanie and Jay had been together

1:33:40

as boyfriend and girlfriend since like second grade or

1:33:42

something. And when we talked about it in the first episode, it went way back.

1:33:45

And Adnan and Stephanie had been really good friends. So

1:33:48

you know, at one point, I think Jay says they didn't really

1:33:50

start hanging out till the year before

1:33:52

this happened.

1:33:54

Maybe that's true, but I think they had known each other for

1:33:56

a long time. And I think something Alice said

1:33:58

way back. I don't know whichever.

1:33:59

now the whole like

1:34:02

the boyfriend of your best friend I mean

1:34:04

Jay had been

1:34:06

Stephanie's boyfriend for so long and Adnan

1:34:08

had been

1:34:09

Stephanie's

1:34:10

best friend for so long and I

1:34:12

just think there weren't anybody else in Adnan's

1:34:15

life he could trust about this and he had to have

1:34:17

somebody help him he couldn't pull this off by himself

1:34:19

for all the sort of obvious reasons and

1:34:22

and I think that's why I picked him and that may not be satisfying

1:34:25

to you

1:34:26

but even Jin couldn't give

1:34:28

a satisfying answer and Jin knew Jay as much as

1:34:30

anybody. You know I think the

1:34:32

more interesting question is not why

1:34:35

did Adnan trust Jay but rather why

1:34:37

did Jay go along with it that honestly

1:34:39

has me more boggled than anything

1:34:43

why did Jay in essence trust

1:34:45

Adnan and I think

1:34:47

it goes back to probably something that we've

1:34:50

talked about earlier and I don't know the

1:34:52

answer to this but I also have to remember

1:34:54

that they were teenagers even though Jay

1:34:56

was you know graduated he was still a teenager

1:34:59

he was still a kid and I think

1:35:01

it was one of those situations where like you

1:35:03

think of yourself as the criminal element and you

1:35:06

never expect yourself to be in that position but

1:35:09

when the world keeps telling you you're nothing more than

1:35:11

a criminal it's almost like you might

1:35:13

as well be a criminal and I don't think

1:35:15

he ever even really believed what was happening

1:35:18

you know because Adnan was this golden child and

1:35:20

you know they talk like you

1:35:22

know tough guys all the time oh yeah I'm

1:35:25

gonna kill her I'm gonna kill that bee but

1:35:27

for him to actually do that I don't

1:35:30

think

1:35:32

I don't think I don't think everyone

1:35:34

is necessarily capable

1:35:36

of the type of premeditated murder that Adnan did

1:35:38

here and I don't think Jay necessarily

1:35:41

was wired like that either so when

1:35:43

Adnan was speaking in those terms

1:35:46

and it was crystallizing in his mind what was going to happen

1:35:49

Jay was still living in the world where we use words

1:35:51

loosely you murder people you hate

1:35:54

people whatever and so

1:35:56

when Adnan called him and all of a sudden there was

1:35:59

a dead girl in a truck

1:35:59

I truly think that

1:36:02

Jay was like,

1:36:04

oh my goodness. Like, I

1:36:07

can't even think straight right now. This

1:36:10

is not a world that I actually believed was going to happen.

1:36:13

I thought he was all talk. And

1:36:16

what am I supposed to do? Who's going to believe me? Like,

1:36:19

it's obviously going to be pinned on me if I

1:36:21

don't do something about this. I have no choice but

1:36:23

to help Adnan cover up this

1:36:25

murder. And so, I mean, that's

1:36:28

just complete speculation. But throughout

1:36:30

our Adnan series, I've been actually

1:36:32

more interested in Jay than anything.

1:36:35

Because I think he

1:36:37

obviously, whenever you talk about Adnan, you

1:36:40

talk about Jay. And I think he

1:36:42

has been, you know, he's

1:36:44

no Boy Scout, obviously. But

1:36:46

I think he has gotten a

1:36:49

really short end of the stick

1:36:51

with the reinvigorated attention on Adnan's

1:36:53

case. And I

1:36:56

don't think he's

1:36:57

blameless, nor do I think he was the one who murdered Kate,

1:36:59

though.

1:37:01

And let me just say about Jay. Jay did a

1:37:03

really terrible thing.

1:37:04

He did a terrible thing when he

1:37:06

helped Adnan

1:37:08

bury Hay's body. And,

1:37:11

you know, he ended up owning that thing.

1:37:13

He pled guilty to it. He

1:37:15

was facing prison time.

1:37:18

You know, we talked to Jay's lawyer, and she was

1:37:20

a really good lawyer. And he was lucky to have

1:37:22

her, because when she

1:37:25

found out about the way the police had treated him

1:37:27

and some of those later interrogations, she

1:37:29

made it pretty clear that she was ready to bring some lawsuits

1:37:32

against the city of Baltimore for some violations of Jay's

1:37:34

rights. And she believes,

1:37:36

and I think it's probably true, that those

1:37:39

threats, one of the

1:37:41

reasons that the judge sort of surprised everybody

1:37:43

and just gave Jay probation, kind of let it

1:37:45

go. And Jay let it go, and she let

1:37:47

it go. And Jay did his time, and

1:37:50

he has moved forward with his life. But I'll

1:37:52

tell you one thing Jay did not do that

1:37:54

he could have done.

1:37:56

It would have been the easiest thing in

1:37:59

the world when...

1:37:59

serial came out or when Adnan's

1:38:02

conviction was vacated for Jay to say,

1:38:04

yep, the police forced me to do it. And

1:38:06

if he'd have done that, he would have been a hero.

1:38:09

He would have written books, you know, he

1:38:11

would have, he would have been on every show. He could

1:38:13

have made so much money off that and

1:38:15

he chose not to do that. It

1:38:16

wouldn't have redeemed him, right? Cause he is not a good character

1:38:19

in the Adnan Hey story. So

1:38:21

he could have, he would have been like

1:38:23

a hero and he could have cleared his own name.

1:38:26

Cause he's the guy who helped Barry Hey.

1:38:29

Right. I mean, look, even

1:38:32

Asia wrote a book. She's

1:38:34

got a book you can buy about her experience. Just

1:38:36

think what Jay could have done and

1:38:39

he didn't do it. And instead he said, he

1:38:41

wasn't going to do anything against Hey basically

1:38:43

said whatever Hey's family wanted him to do,

1:38:45

if they wanted him to talk more, he'd talk more. That

1:38:48

was his position. And you

1:38:50

know,

1:38:51

if

1:38:53

Jay was the victim of a police frame

1:38:56

job,

1:38:57

this would have been a great opportunity for him to say

1:38:59

so. And it would have benefited him greatly.

1:39:02

And yet he didn't do it. And I give him a lot

1:39:04