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He gave me a book. On

0:35

art forgery I found

0:37

myself drawn to the

0:39

his. Old Masters. How

0:41

did these orders take

0:43

a paint from a

0:45

pallet, arrange it on

0:47

a canvas? I began

0:49

to unlock the secrets.

0:52

I was so store

0:54

house of knowledge of

0:56

how to create an

0:58

illusion presented to a

1:00

experienced expert, manipulate his

1:02

mind and convince him

1:04

and bring him to

1:06

the inevitable conclusion that

1:08

the painting as genuine

1:10

we are flooded the

1:12

market with my paintings

1:14

and I couldn't believe

1:16

what I did I

1:18

couldn't believe than the

1:20

dominoes started falling and.

1:22

Eventually the F B I

1:24

will lead to my door.

1:26

They uncovered a how mountain

1:28

of evidence against me but

1:31

they never actually got you.

1:34

At this point, you've sold a a lot.

1:36

You've got like a million dollars in cash.

1:38

that you sold one painting for seven hundred

1:40

and seventeen thousand. Why did it go

1:43

away? Why did you never get indicted? in

1:45

How are we having this conversation? I

1:49

guess that's the greatest story of all

1:51

to hear how Ken Pereni made millions

1:53

in art, forgery, dodged the mafia

1:56

and and the FBI, subscribe to to

1:58

The Jordan Harbinger Show and check out

2:00

episode 282 282, in apple, podcasts,

2:02

Spotify or wherever you're listening. I'm

2:11

Brett Analysed and we are

2:14

as the Prophecy. Today

2:27

on the Prosecutors we continue or

2:29

look as Db Cooper and the

2:31

money to. Hello

3:05

everybody and welcome to this

3:07

episode of The Prosecutors. I'm

3:09

brett them, joined as always

3:11

by my co host who

3:13

is definitely worth more than

3:15

two hundred thousand dollars even

3:17

accounting for inflation. Alice.

3:21

Hello Alice Hi rare way to

3:23

bring some economic system that's ever

3:25

gonna. I was every guys that

3:27

good. Comparison: Exactly. That was.

3:29

so Joe's one of the

3:31

kids from Lititz Elementary who

3:33

helped us and I would

3:35

have Kaji my Eclipse. Co.

3:38

Has been. I decided to stick to

3:40

the theme instead of all of you

3:42

guys enjoy the eclipse that happened last

3:44

league. Alice's right in the middle of

3:46

it in the heart of darkness. Have

3:48

a towel Any totality, man. So I

3:51

I read that it's. At. The clips

3:53

happened like every eighteen months that we can

3:55

only see it every you know many, many

3:57

years. Isn't that crazy? I mean, I know,

4:00

Lot of people like oh it because the

4:02

world and day or this or that are

4:04

all the bad thing. I can only see

4:06

the like utter amazement and wonder that something

4:08

like that happens and then something that we

4:10

get see like witness. Maybe I should be

4:12

more scared about the world ending but I

4:14

just think it's like it was. An.

4:16

Incredible sight to behold and if you get

4:18

a chance and twenty one years to see

4:21

a total eclipse I recommend trying to drive

4:23

or fly to it and on my plane

4:25

like I was there for work but almost

4:27

everyone on the plane was there to see

4:29

the a club so like the whole airplane

4:32

with like super site that the the entire

4:34

plane ride as it's a great community building

4:36

moment. Yeah. And I can imagine if.

4:39

If you know the gloves, who's coming in here

4:41

to live in your life in? everyday the sun

4:43

came up, in the sun went down and no

4:45

big deal and and one day of a sudden

4:47

his phone is extinguished in the middle of the

4:50

day. That would be frightening I can imagine sacrificing

4:52

Atlantic and said it would be. definitely. Spend

4:54

all that I like. Definitely understand why the

4:56

dinosaurs died off with no sunlight south if

4:58

that's what happened in our still have to

5:00

come up with the reason all the time

5:02

when my kids are like why did I

5:04

do not live that you know remnants of

5:06

dinosaur age is still live have you seen

5:08

a crocodile and also I found a snake

5:11

skin and my garage today. So while I

5:13

will never leave my house again basically what

5:15

I'm saying. Before we just which

5:17

is really you're going off the the

5:19

regulation though. get a lotta fun of

5:21

interesting spent a lot either about. For

5:23

you know, I've. You know why? It's

5:25

because when I don't have an answer to

5:27

one of our cases, I just delay delay

5:30

delay. The like, who is Db Cooper? Are

5:32

now. Been. We should

5:34

probably. Stop delaying, just jump to it. Yeah.

5:38

Well. This is for other with

5:40

a. Deal. With the forties and

5:42

the tix of beepers. See. Guess

5:45

flimsy to get better ever

5:47

if average of hours and

5:49

certainly not one specific we're

5:52

talking about. Db Cooper. Today.

5:55

Again, following up on her episode last week which

5:57

we just had a great time and I as

5:59

I guess. I have really fall

6:01

in the humphries them at home as

6:03

Db Cooper. Things like I've been watching

6:05

all the documentaries of in Reno the

6:07

books I mean it is absolutely fascinating

6:09

and the more I look into it.

6:12

The. More, I understand why people are so obsessed with

6:14

this case. They were going to do this and then

6:16

I made us continue being obsessed with it so may

6:18

have to have like an update. From. For

6:20

some crazy theory I have a who it is

6:22

going to be really get through. It's a boy

6:24

who the boss look at a dinner. Like we

6:26

did not deny writing a book phrase a long

6:29

time. This might be. The perfect candidate

6:31

for that because of everything you said.

6:33

They're just like enlist rather trails. Where

6:36

you where you're there are endless

6:38

ravage rails and every single suspect

6:40

is absolutely fascinating. They're all these

6:43

incredibly interesting people. The person probably

6:45

actually did it was probably be

6:47

incredibly boring person other than this

6:49

one of it in their lives.

6:51

But the actual suspects are. Crazy.

6:54

So if you have not had an opportunity

6:56

to look into this there a law degree

6:58

books guy jack. Into. The blast

7:00

it out about that when. The.

7:02

The documentaries are fantastic. There's a there's a

7:05

lot. If. You enjoyed our coverage

7:07

is gonna do but that's enough. that's enough

7:09

talking list I were the case we ended

7:11

last time. With. Were some

7:13

people think? Db Cooper ended

7:15

suisse first jumping into a

7:18

maelstrom to parachute. Into. The

7:20

darkness and try to escape with the

7:22

two hundred thousand dollars that he had

7:24

taken. And so now we're going to

7:26

get into the investigation. So. That

7:29

brings us to November Twenty Fifth.

7:31

Nineteen Seventy Once Investigators are eager.

7:33

To. Start this investigation. They want to

7:36

get on the ground as soon as

7:38

possible. Remember, it's quite possible that Db.

7:40

Cooper jumped into a very remote area

7:42

A could have taken him a while

7:44

if he survive the jump to get

7:47

out of the forest. Moreover, he could

7:49

be injured. In fact, there were some

7:51

people. In. The up yahoo believed it

7:53

was impossible for him to make the shop and

7:55

not be injured. That means if you can get

7:57

on the ground quickly, get into the forest quick.

8:00

you may be able to catch him before he even has

8:03

a chance to get out and nothing

8:06

else. Maybe you'll come across some

8:08

people who are witnesses, maybe you'll

8:10

see some remnants of the parachute

8:12

or whatever. You're looking for evidence

8:14

as quickly as possible, but the

8:16

same weather that had made it

8:18

difficult for D.B. Cooper to survive

8:20

this jump made

8:22

it very difficult for the

8:24

search. And really this continued for months.

8:27

At one point there was

8:29

a nearby army base and the soldiers at

8:31

the army base were tasked with doing the

8:33

search. And the search was so

8:35

difficult and the weather was so bad that

8:38

at some point the general in charge wrote

8:40

a memo to the Department of Defense and

8:42

was like, look, we got to pull our

8:44

guys out. They're completely exhausted, you know,

8:46

they cannot continue doing this anymore. So

8:48

that's how tough this was. And

8:51

they weren't able to get out there as quickly as they

8:53

would have liked. They tried

8:55

all sorts of things. They had

8:57

an SR-71 Blackbird, which is the

9:00

spy plane with all

9:02

sorts of abilities, high powered cameras that

9:04

they flew over the area several times.

9:06

But it was so cloudy and so

9:08

stormy that it could not get any

9:11

photographs of the area that they could use. It's

9:13

the fastest plane in the world. Actually,

9:15

in case you're ever in the DC airport,

9:18

the Smithsonian store in

9:20

the DCA airport has model

9:22

SR-71 Blackbirds. And I learned that it made

9:24

it from Los Angeles to New York in,

9:26

how long do you think? The

9:29

fastest that it ever clocked. An

9:32

hour? Close. Hour, four minutes. Wow.

9:35

Isn't that insane? All

9:37

to say is, the point of that

9:40

is that this is the best and

9:42

the brightest of anything

9:44

our military had. They deployed it for

9:46

DB Cooper. So they were treating this

9:49

as if this was the highest national

9:51

priority. I mean, the SR-71 isn't deployed

9:53

for like just any oil hijacker, but

9:56

they have, you know, the Department of Defense

9:58

on it, our highest and best

10:00

use spy planes. And

10:04

this is not something where it's like, oh, they

10:06

didn't investigate. We are throwing

10:08

all of our national defense resources

10:10

at it. And those of

10:12

you who are in law enforcement, if you've worked around law

10:14

enforcement, when you have an incident like

10:16

this that is

10:18

unique, daring, dangerous, and

10:21

expensive, it is very

10:23

important to find and apprehend the

10:25

person as quickly as possible, because

10:28

it's not just the media and interested

10:30

folks at home who are watching, it's

10:32

other people who are thinking, huh, that

10:35

seems like a pretty good way to make money. If that

10:37

guy can get away with it, maybe I can get away

10:39

with it too. So they really wanna catch this guy. They

10:42

really wanna show this is not something that

10:44

you should try at home. And so they

10:46

are deploying as many resources as they can,

10:48

but they're finding it extremely difficult to

10:51

find D.V. Cooper. And as we're gonna talk

10:53

about in a second, this difficulty is heightened

10:55

because they don't know exactly where to look.

10:58

The problem is it was

11:00

so stormy and the flight

11:03

path was not as exact

11:05

as you might think. Especially in the 70s,

11:08

it's not like we're using geospatial

11:10

technology here. We're plotting

11:12

these flight maps on pen and paper.

11:14

So they have a really good,

11:16

good enough for government work, good enough to get from

11:18

airport to airport idea of where they are. But when

11:20

you're talking about a guy jumping out the back of

11:22

a plane in a 200 mile an hour wind, and

11:27

in addition to that, the storm, and

11:29

he's in a parachute, knowing

11:32

exactly where to look is difficult. Particularly

11:34

when you don't know exactly when he

11:36

jumped. They had sort of a good

11:38

idea because of the pressure change, but

11:40

even a matter of minutes. In fact,

11:42

one minute is going to become important

11:44

later, can have many, many

11:46

miles, square miles, effect on

11:48

where he might be and where you should

11:50

be searching. One thing, just

11:53

to show you how deeply invested we

11:55

are in researching all the theories in

11:57

this case, Brett and I attended an

11:59

air show. this past weekend and

12:01

watched a lot of military people parachute

12:03

out of airplanes in military fashion. And

12:05

actually, I thought that—I don't know if

12:08

you caught this, Brett, with like all

12:10

of the reporting they were doing

12:12

over the thousands of people who were— hundreds

12:14

of thousands of people who were watching. But

12:16

they were demonstrating how the parachuters were able

12:18

to manipulate incredibly effectively in the sky.

12:20

I've always kind of thought of parachuting as like,

12:22

you're just going to land, where are you going

12:24

to land? I hope it's not among the trees,

12:27

but especially with like their military training,

12:30

they were able to essentially like land in

12:32

a square spot exactly where they wanted to

12:34

be amidst flying planes and other parachuters in

12:36

the air. So we'll talk about theories later

12:38

as to who we think D.B. Cooper is.

12:41

But if he has an idea where people

12:43

are going to be looking for him, and

12:45

even if we have an idea exactly where

12:48

he jumped, if he's very sophisticated of a

12:50

parachuter—may or may not be the

12:52

case based on the parachute that he took— he

12:54

could have incredible manipulative effect on where

12:57

he ultimately lands that could be outside

12:59

of any scope if they're treating him as

13:01

just a regular Joe who jumped out of an

13:03

airplane. And that's what's fascinating, and one of the

13:05

many things that's fascinating about this case is because

13:08

it's almost—in order to find him, you have to know who he

13:10

is. Because his

13:13

ability to do exactly what Alice said,

13:15

to manipulate that parachute, also has a

13:17

vast effect on where he might have

13:19

landed. If he's

13:21

not able to do so, either because of

13:24

the style of parachute or just because he

13:26

is not very sophisticated parachutist,

13:28

he's more likely to be in the

13:30

search area. If he's somebody who

13:32

has jumped out of a lot of planes

13:34

and can manipulate parachutes that maybe the average

13:36

person couldn't and can direct himself

13:38

somewhere, then he is more likely to have been

13:41

able to escape, which will make it much harder

13:43

to find him. So if

13:45

you knew his background, it would be much

13:47

easier to find out who it is. But in order to know his background,

13:49

you've got to know who it is. And so that's what

13:51

leads these people down these rabbit trails, where

13:53

they pick a suspect and they build all

13:56

these reasons you think it's him. And

13:58

they're sort of like doing it backwards, right? Because

14:00

there's not a whole lot of actual evidence about

14:02

who it is. There's just what

14:04

he did and how he did it and what kind

14:06

of person could do that. I'm

14:08

sure the behavioral analysis unit in FBI

14:11

has a room full of DB

14:13

Cooper files because that is the kind of thing

14:15

you're doing here. You're trying to figure out what

14:17

kind of person would do this and

14:19

then see if you can narrow it down. In

14:22

any event, the media picks up the

14:24

story. And look, would

14:26

this have been a big story if

14:29

Dan Cooper had hijacked this plane and gotten away with it?

14:31

Still would have been the only person who ever got away

14:33

with it. But he certainly wasn't the only person to hijack

14:35

a plane. He wasn't the only person to jump out of

14:37

a plane with a bunch of money. But

14:40

something happens because of the storms. The

14:42

storms are having such an effect. So

14:45

a local reporter for the

14:47

Oregonian newspaper is on

14:50

the phone with the FBI and the

14:52

lines were really bad that night because

14:54

it's storming and there's a lot of

14:56

interference. And he's

14:59

trying to get from his source a name that

15:01

he can put in his report.

15:05

And he is told Dan

15:07

Cooper. But what he hears is

15:09

DB Cooper. And

15:14

that's what he runs with. And he

15:16

puts DB Cooper into his report. And

15:19

he just so happens to be working in the

15:21

same building, in fact next door to the AP

15:24

reporter who puts out the

15:26

AP press reports, the

15:29

wire reports that you sometimes see. Even now,

15:31

a lot of stories, they're not written by

15:33

your local reporters. They're written by an AP

15:35

wire reporter. It goes out over the wire.

15:38

And then every newspaper, every news outlet

15:40

that has some sort of contract with

15:42

AP can take that language and

15:44

put it in their own paper and use it for

15:47

content. Well, they all work together

15:49

and the AP reporter is like, hey, you

15:52

got any line on the guy's name? He's

15:54

like, yeah, his name's DB Cooper. So it goes out over

15:56

the AP wire. And to this

15:58

day, that is what he's called,

16:01

DB Cooper, not Dan Cooper, to the

16:03

point that the police, the FBI, everyone

16:05

who talks about this case, nobody calls

16:08

it the Dan Cooper case. They all

16:10

call it the DB Cooper case. And

16:13

this just shows you how powerful media

16:16

and honestly popular culture can be, because

16:18

part of the reason the police even

16:20

switched to calling them DB Cooper is

16:22

when you're doing an investigation, people may

16:24

not know who you're talking about when

16:26

you say Dan Cooper, but if you

16:28

say DB Cooper, the recognition level jumps

16:30

way up. So this has changed the course

16:32

of this case. I mean, it doesn't really matter because

16:34

he's not DB or Dan. Well,

16:36

and it may have had a couple of facts. Number

16:38

one, his name suddenly

16:40

became hold back evidence, which

16:43

you wouldn't normally expect, but the FBI took

16:45

advantage of this. So they started

16:47

getting reports, people

16:50

saying, I know a DB Cooper, people

16:52

saying, I am DB Cooper, letters

16:55

coming in signed by DB Cooper.

16:58

Well, every time they get something by

17:01

DB Cooper, they know it's

17:04

probably somebody just saying what

17:07

they've read in the newspaper is probably a

17:09

crank or a fake or, or

17:11

some sort of joke. And

17:13

it becomes interesting for the investigation because

17:17

some of these people we're going to talk

17:19

about later are deathbed confessions. And

17:21

if you, you know, 50 years

17:24

later, if you

17:26

tell your family, I am DB Cooper, well,

17:29

maybe you're just saying what he's called. So

17:31

that doesn't necessarily rule you out. But

17:33

if you tell your family on your deathbed, I'm

17:36

Dan Cooper, all of

17:38

a sudden that becomes much more

17:40

powerful because why would you use that name?

17:42

I mean, now we know that that's his

17:44

name, but why would you use that name

17:47

and not DB Cooper? It sort

17:49

of gives some of those deathbed confessions. And

17:51

I say some of those because there have

17:54

been multiple ones which cuts against my argument,

17:57

but it gives those a Little bit more.

18:00

That ability. When. People are

18:02

using. The right

18:04

name and not the

18:06

famous same, but absolutely.

18:08

Db Cooper became a

18:10

name burned into people's

18:12

minds. He became a

18:15

folk hero. Their. Songs

18:17

about Him. Bomb. At a

18:19

bar to bang bang dignity D said

18:21

a book is it up? Jumped the

18:23

Boogie. Just one example of a sound

18:25

that mentions Db Cooper. and you know

18:27

those really seen Loki. I mean it's

18:29

like it is. Part. Of

18:31

Americana. Now and I

18:33

don't think that would happen. If

18:36

the dude name had just been day and. The

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20:14

Okay, so that's November 25th. On

20:17

November 26th, the FBI is now really into

20:20

this. They

20:23

are deploying their agents all over

20:25

the place. They're collecting evidence. They

20:28

collect evidence, some really good evidence, including

20:30

cigarette butts, which could

20:32

be just packed full of DNA, fingerprints on the

20:35

plane. They

20:37

know that he was drinking bourbon. He's

20:40

probably got fingerprints on DNA all

20:42

over that glass. But you know

20:44

what? In one of those

20:46

lessons to all of us about

20:49

how things go in these investigations,

20:51

all of this evidence is eventually

20:53

lost. The cigarette butts have been

20:55

lost. All we know

20:57

is they were Raleigh cigarettes, which is a

21:00

somewhat obscure brand. It

21:02

was called Coupon Cigarettes, which I guess when

21:04

you bought them, you got coupons which you could

21:06

then redeem for other cigarettes. So they tended

21:08

to be cheaper cigarettes, kind

21:10

of bargain basement cigarettes. I don't really

21:13

know a lot about cigarettes, to be honest with you, but

21:15

that's my understanding. Not a well-known brand. But

21:20

they were from Raleigh, North Carolina, which is I guess what

21:22

they're called, Raleigh Cigarettes. So the

21:24

glass that Cooper drank out

21:26

of somehow got mixed up with all

21:28

the other glasses and washed, so they

21:31

ended up not having the fingerprints. This

21:34

just makes me think of Jambonee

21:36

Ramsey when like the victim

21:38

impact team comes in and just

21:40

like cleans the kitchen, the kitchen

21:42

where Jambonee likely had to pass

21:44

through on her way down to

21:46

the basement where sadly her life

21:48

ended. And it's like

21:50

you washed it? Really? The one time

21:52

you decide to clean is now. Yeah,

21:55

and the problem was the fingerprints, they

21:58

had fingerprints, but man, there were a ton of fingerprints. there

22:00

are lots of people's fingerprints, it's a plane. There's

22:03

gonna be a lot of fingerprints, so it's very

22:05

difficult for them to isolate out anything

22:07

in particular, though they did try and do

22:09

that to remove as many of those fingerprints

22:11

as possible, which left them with a large

22:13

number of unknown fingerprints, but they still

22:15

have it. So now they're thinking, look, the way we

22:17

gotta do this, it's the people.

22:19

We hate to do that, and as you guys

22:22

know, eyewitness accounts

22:24

are pretty bad. This one,

22:26

longer than most. This is not, I saw a

22:29

guy for three seconds, and now I'm gonna give

22:31

you a detailed description of him. There are a

22:33

lot of people on that plane for a long

22:35

time. So they start interviewing passengers and crew members.

22:37

The problem was, the passengers were generally unaware of

22:39

the hijacking. They didn't pay much attention

22:42

to this mystery man who's in the back of the

22:44

plane. It's funny, there was actually

22:46

a federal prosecutor on the plane, and he

22:48

didn't notice anything, so you know, missed out

22:50

an opportunity there. But there was this college

22:52

student we've mentioned before. He was actually sitting

22:54

across from D.B. Cooper, he was one of

22:56

the few people in the back of

22:58

the plane. He was a college student, Bill Mitchell, and

23:01

he did notice this guy, and

23:04

he paid attention to

23:07

him. He noticed one thing that was

23:09

pretty interesting. He thought that he noticed

23:11

long underwear sticking out from underneath his

23:13

suit, which was a detail he remembered

23:15

because it struck him as strange. He

23:17

didn't know why he would be wearing

23:19

that. Now we know he's about to

23:21

jump into freezing cold weather, which is

23:23

a good reason to have long underwear

23:25

on. But that was something

23:27

he noticed, and it helped him be able

23:30

to give the FBI a little bit of

23:32

information. The passengers were all over the place

23:34

on what D.B. Cooper looked like. Some

23:36

of them said he was tall, close to

23:39

six foot. Some of them said he was

23:41

short, close to five eight. Some of them

23:43

said he had straight hair. Some of them

23:45

said he had wavy hair. Some of them

23:47

described him as swarthy. Others said he was

23:50

just a white guy. One guy said he

23:52

had his hair styled in some sort of

23:54

French style that I've never even heard of.

23:57

He Was a barber, so you

23:59

might think. The only reason about, but who

24:01

knows. but you gotta remember most these people.

24:04

They. Saw him for very little time so the

24:06

F B I or listening to what they're saying

24:08

whether or not taking them all that seriously. And

24:11

that just been out. Just as a reminder,

24:13

he sat in a very back row and

24:15

sell. If anyone saw him, it would have

24:17

been when he was walking onto the plane

24:19

or if they somehow turned around during the

24:21

flight or walked back towards hands. And so

24:23

it's not surprising that they don't remember much

24:25

that it's not surprising. Think about the last

24:27

time you on a plane. I will not

24:29

a plane yesterday. Apparently someone I'd known for

24:31

very long time sat directly behind me. No

24:34

idea this and that she was there until

24:36

the end of the plane ride and see

24:38

said my name. That lads sell. This is

24:41

very typical of first of all first account

24:43

eyewitnesses. We know that eyewitnesses, especially when you

24:45

don't know what you're looking at is important.

24:48

We. All kind of register with going on. Second

24:50

of all, there's a lot of people on the

24:52

plane and this person was trying to me nondescript

24:55

and he did a good job of it cel.

24:57

I think that the police knew what they were

24:59

going to get from these interviews and unfortunately they

25:01

were right. Kind of useless interviews

25:03

from these folks. And the to

25:05

people who would have known the most for

25:08

Florence Schaffner and Tina my pillow. They were

25:10

the to flight attendants who knew that this

25:12

hijacking was going on and you had direct

25:14

interaction with Db Cooper. you may remember Tina

25:17

my clothes on the last people to see

25:19

him interestingly see later became a nice. Though.

25:21

Of as a thing do this but just. When.

25:24

She did with are like so they've been

25:26

a long time with him. The F B

25:28

I actually interviewed them in two different cities.

25:30

They do it on purpose so much as.

25:33

For. Schaffner was able to get off

25:35

the plane when they landed. Teen amok

25:37

low stayed on the plane during the

25:39

hijackings have ended up interviewing her in

25:42

Reno, but it was good to have

25:44

to interviews with these people in different

25:46

places they can't get together on the

25:48

other. That what they're talking

25:51

about. so you expect. Near.

25:53

Going to get not enough for me. There's always the

25:55

possibility is an inside job, right? so you don't necessarily

25:57

want the witnesses in the same room. You don't want

25:59

them talking read. other, you want to

26:01

get their independent stories. What

26:03

they said was close, but it was still

26:05

a little different. You know,

26:07

down to which side did he part his hair on, that

26:09

kind of thing. And it's just, it's,

26:11

this, this goes, this is the ultimate eyewitness

26:14

accounts are not entirely reliable. And

26:17

this is one reason that this

26:19

case is tough because Florence

26:22

Shaffner or Tina Mucklow,

26:24

I can't remember which one it was, but

26:26

only one of them saw his eyes, for

26:29

instance. The other one only saw

26:31

him while he was wearing sunglasses. Remember he

26:33

put sunglasses on and the one who saw

26:35

him, whichever one it was said

26:38

that he had brown eyes and

26:40

described them as piercing brown eyes. She

26:42

definitely noticed that. Well, that

26:44

has become a big problem when you're talking about suspects,

26:47

because a lot of the suspects don't have brown eyes.

26:50

They'll have blue eyes, blue eyes seem pretty different than

26:52

brown eyes. Some of them will have hazel eyes and

26:54

it's like, yeah, it's pretty close. I don't know. You

26:56

could call that brown. Right. But this

26:58

has been something that the FBI has used to

27:00

rule out a lot of people, the eye color,

27:03

but you only have one witness who says it. And

27:06

you just have to wonder how accurate was she

27:08

in that. But nevertheless, the FBI, they're able

27:11

to gather a description though. It

27:13

turns out to be a rather generic one

27:15

that probably fits a large number of people

27:17

in the United States described

27:19

as he's a white male in his

27:21

mid forties. Now Tina

27:24

Mucklow was adamant that he

27:26

was in his mid forties and she was adamant that

27:28

he was around six feet tall saying he was a

27:30

little bit taller than her. She was a pretty tall

27:32

lady. Florence Schaffner thought he was

27:34

younger. She thought he might be

27:36

in his twenties or thirties. At

27:39

the end of the day, the FBI went with

27:41

the forties, but that's a pretty big difference and

27:44

once again, is going to affect your suspect pool.

27:46

And you know, we're going to have to have

27:48

Juliet back on to talk about profiling. But the first

27:50

thing that strikes me as the mid forties

27:52

description is that you have a very

27:55

Bold hijacking that involves jumping out of

27:57

a plane with a parachute. The

28:00

i made forty person can't do

28:02

that, but that tends to be

28:04

one of those like Mission Impossible

28:06

absolute, you know, adrenaline something thrill

28:09

that you may see in a

28:11

profile as someone who is younger.

28:13

right? Someone in their twenties or thirties if you didn't

28:15

tell me their eighties said this is these are the facts

28:18

of the crime. I. Would initially think that

28:20

they were someone on the younger side because

28:22

jumping at a plane just get of typically

28:24

with her with look recidivism is still pretty

28:26

high in your forty's so. This. Is

28:29

just based on what we see, but that.

28:32

He could be the most fit forty something year old jumping out

28:34

of a plane. But. I don't. I don't

28:36

Off he had thought about the age when you first saw that.

28:38

I've always questioned the. Mid forties description or maybe

28:40

guess in the yearbook from the seventies. Era

28:43

in Haskell. looks like they're in their thirties. The.

28:45

We I don't I don't know what

28:47

happened oh my what those people are

28:49

going through with a grown up there

28:51

by in the seventies would boulder the

28:53

for suffered unnecessarily favorite that he was

28:55

in his mid forties but that sort

28:57

of our starting point and in the

29:00

problem with this is another think can

29:02

use any. This is definitively rule anybody

29:04

out though they are things that people

29:06

point to. The other thing the he

29:08

described his having. Was.

29:10

Between five ten and six feet

29:12

tall apartment, one hundred and thirty

29:14

five pounds with an average build.

29:16

And. An olive complex in This is

29:19

another thing people argue about. Some

29:21

people said he looked like he

29:23

was possibly Native American or Hispanic.

29:26

Other people suggested he might have just been

29:28

wearing makeup is part of his disguise to

29:30

make his skin with a little bit darker

29:32

that it would be a normal life. but

29:34

this is something you're gonna have to deal

29:36

with when you start looking at some of

29:38

the suspects. Some of them are. Part.

29:41

native american for instance and that is often

29:43

used as sort of a look maybe that's

29:46

where does all of complex and description comes

29:48

from and that's something we're going to see

29:50

as we start to work through things he

29:52

were a dark suit with a black tie

29:54

that the interesting thing about the suit and

29:57

tie was the ty was sort of a

29:59

skinny tie And it was a tie

30:01

that had gone out of style. So it was

30:03

an older style clip on tie,

30:05

not, we're not talking 20 years older,

30:08

but four or five years,

30:10

probably from its prime men

30:12

had started to wear broader ties

30:14

at the beginning of the seventies

30:16

and that is something the

30:18

FBI noticed as well. And they wondered, is this

30:20

an older suit or possibly a suit that he

30:22

just picked up at a second hand store or

30:24

something like that, which is also going to have

30:26

an effect later on because the tie is going

30:28

to have DNA on it. And

30:30

the question of course is, is it DB

30:33

Cooper's DNA or is it someone

30:35

else's? And when that DNA is used to

30:37

realize suspects, can we count on that or

30:40

should we ignore it? And they also

30:42

knew that early on in the hijacking, he had

30:44

put on that pair of dark sunglasses to

30:46

hide his eyes, but

30:49

we still had that report of

30:51

piercing brown eyes, which would go along

30:53

with, if he were Hispanic or something

30:55

along those lines that he might have

30:58

darker eyes. So

31:00

they are now going to work. They're

31:02

trying to figure out the most important

31:04

thing for them is where did he

31:06

jump? They're going over this flight path.

31:08

They're interviewing the pilots. They're meticulously trying

31:10

to work things out and

31:12

they assume, and they later test this, they

31:15

fly a plane out over the ocean and

31:17

they start dropping stuff out the back of

31:19

it to see what'll happen to the plane.

31:21

And they become pretty confident that that pressure

31:23

bump, when it seemed

31:26

like something had happened in the

31:28

plane was him jumping out of the

31:30

plane and the stairs lifting up, partially closing,

31:33

changing the pressure in the plane, coming back

31:35

down, changing the pressure again, that that was

31:37

the moment he jumped off. So

31:39

they had a decent idea of the time he

31:42

jumped off and the area

31:44

of the search was relatively large.

31:47

They put it about 25 square miles

31:49

east of the Columbia River.

31:52

Now The problem was number one,: the

31:54

pilot did not know exactly where he

31:57

was. He did not know exactly what

31:59

path. The was traveling. Also,

32:01

they didn't know exactly when Cooper jumped

32:03

off the had a pretty good idea

32:05

within a couple minutes but but they

32:08

didn't know exactly. And because they didn't

32:10

know the exact path. They

32:13

could not coordinators to to create a

32:15

good drop zone and they messed up.

32:18

They lost a minute in the

32:21

course of plotting this out for

32:23

some reason. They. Lost a minutes

32:25

they were from like eight. oh two to eight o

32:27

five. Arab season and it has more

32:29

than one minutes attitude eight. Oh for. And

32:32

so when they did that, they're plotting each minute.

32:34

Where. Would they be of? this flight

32:36

path was correct. Where would they be over?

32:38

well by losing a minute your last those

32:41

miles that they traveled to and now you

32:43

have him. In. That spot later

32:45

on when a vapid already passed over

32:47

there. Which. Means in this

32:49

is incredibly important because the initial.

32:52

Place. That they plotted out the place

32:54

that was so hard to search that a

32:56

war down army veterans and was impossible to

32:58

get through because it was so tangled in,

33:00

forested in thick and the kind of place

33:02

you think if any. my job at a

33:05

plane and landed in here. They're.

33:07

In big trouble never going to make it. Problem.

33:10

Is the and that one minute back in. All.

33:13

Of a sudden. The drop zone

33:15

cs. To. A much less forested

33:17

area, an area that most people

33:19

think if he jumped over that

33:21

area you could have survived. And

33:23

this was a huge huge problem

33:25

for the Fb out when they're

33:28

trying to figure out exactly where

33:30

to search and over the years

33:32

this potential jumped location has shifted

33:34

many, many times in many, many

33:36

miles with people who know this

33:38

case arguing to the death over

33:40

where it was. The Db Cooper

33:42

actually would have landed. So with

33:44

all of this, it was no surprise

33:46

at the search for Db. Cooper was

33:49

completely unsuccessful. Not only that, they can't

33:51

find him, there's absolutely no sign of

33:53

him or even evidence of the jump

33:56

discovered. I mean, you might be able

33:58

to find, you know, Sky. Accident

34:00

clothing it had caught on.

34:02

you know, debris his path.

34:04

The money number two hundred

34:07

thousand. Dollars and twenty dollar bills

34:09

as ten. It was a ten thousand and

34:11

ten thousand bills. The a lot of opportunity for

34:13

think the fly out of bag. We

34:15

didn't find that until later. Put a pin

34:17

and we didn't find a parachute. We didn't

34:20

find anything that could have led to the

34:22

fact that he even jumped. And

34:25

here's the thing. decades later, investigators

34:27

are no closer to figuring out.

34:30

Db. Cooper's true identity.

34:33

But. They do identify one piece of

34:35

information that may have pointed to

34:37

a lack of general knowledge of.

34:39

Parachutes, I'd Db

34:42

Cooper's parts. We. Talked

34:44

a little earlier about you know is he

34:46

sophisticated to air sheet or if years he

34:48

could really manipulate where he land. Especially by

34:50

the way. If he knows how to use

34:52

the wind. From this massive storm

34:54

to his advantage. So instead of being

34:56

a detriment if it were something he

34:58

could leverage to get any much farther,

35:00

you can imagine how the see that

35:02

opens up his landing place by either

35:04

many more square mile. One.

35:07

Potential piece of evidence that may show

35:10

that he was it that sophisticated of

35:12

of hair shooter was that he asked

35:14

for two sets of parachutes. Each.

35:16

Of the said had a main parachutes

35:19

that went on the back and a

35:21

small reserve pack that's worn on the

35:23

chest. One of the sets that was

35:25

delivered was actually a dummy reserve. Pair.

35:28

Sheet that used for training purposes.

35:30

And. Sewn shut, We. Talked about this

35:32

before. Where should be no mistake because

35:35

no one wants to accidently give someone

35:37

the wrong reserve parachute and so says

35:39

like reserve is sewn shut you can't

35:42

open. If anyone who knows something even

35:44

if you could read probably would know

35:46

that this is a parachute that does

35:49

not have a reserve path that works

35:51

Be coming out of a plane I

35:53

would think you want to pick the

35:55

pack and gives you the greatest. chance

35:59

of survival Now for unknown

36:01

reasons Cooper used the set with

36:03

the dummy reserve parachute instead of

36:05

the operational set so

36:09

Again, it was an accident by the way What

36:11

was not that they gave him a dummy?

36:14

Oh, was that an accident? I just thought they were trying to

36:16

like mess with him the

36:19

parachutes were the hardest thing to get so It

36:21

was a real rush job to get the parachutes and

36:24

the guy who worked at the parachute place

36:26

just ran into the office grabbed The first

36:28

four shoots he found and gave him the

36:31

FBI and nobody noticed including Dv Cooper One

36:34

of them was a fake shoot. So

36:36

it turned out Then

36:39

how did they figure out after the fact because

36:41

it was the one taken so how did they

36:43

know it was reserved? That's a great

36:45

question. I actually don't know the answer to that. I Don't

36:48

know. I don't know. I don't know

36:50

if when the guy when they did the In

36:53

the area on the parachutes they had left because

36:55

it was the guy who gave them the shoots that figured

36:58

out That one of the shoots

37:00

didn't work. Okay, this is me He

37:02

must have done some sort of inventory the fact

37:04

that it wasn't on purpose is going to make

37:06

me question this whole line Anyway,

37:08

why not we should question everything because we

37:10

have no answers many decades later anyway Maybe

37:13

they had a perfect inventory of

37:15

what they had and they they knew after the fact that

37:18

it was the reserve parachute But the fact that it wasn't

37:20

on purpose. I thought it was a plant you know, just

37:22

like Level of success

37:24

lower or whatever for whatever reason something

37:26

like that But if that was

37:29

not on purpose there's human error

37:31

in terms of how you track

37:34

your parachute and especially if it was so hurried and

37:36

That was the shoot that went out with him and it's never

37:39

been found maybe I don't

37:41

know how much stock I'm gonna put into Knowing

37:44

for a fact that that was a reserve parachute

37:46

or that he DB Cooper messed up by picking

37:48

it No, I'm gonna

37:50

be that weird person who's gonna just call into question

37:53

that piece of evidence Yeah,

37:56

I mean either way it was his reserve sheets. I

37:58

presumably didn't need it, but didn't

38:00

want to give him any fake sheets. I mean,

38:02

some people have said, well, the idea probably did it on

38:04

purpose. Well, the reason they didn't do it on purpose was because they

38:07

believed. And in fact, the FAA

38:09

psychologist, he knew they had one

38:11

who did all the research on

38:14

hijackers had told the pilots back when they were

38:16

trying to get him to get out the front of

38:18

the plane, that his plan was he was

38:20

going to jump out of the plane. He was

38:22

going to make Tina Mucklow jump out with him and he was

38:24

going to blow up the plane and

38:26

so to remove all the evidence. So they didn't

38:29

want to give. They didn't know it was just going to

38:31

be one sheet that was needed. And just to make

38:33

clear in case this was confusing to anyone, it

38:36

didn't really matter that the

38:38

reserve shoot was a dummy shoot because he still had an

38:40

operational main shoot on his back.

38:42

So that one was gone. So if that opened

38:44

up like it should have, everything would have been

38:47

fine. It would have just been in the instance

38:49

where the main shoot didn't open and he needed

38:51

to use his backup shoot. He did

38:53

not have a backup shoot if in fact he

38:55

had the dummy one. So he

38:57

had an opportunity basically to parachute

39:00

successfully. He had one that did work. But

39:03

that makes sense that they did not mean to give

39:05

one because that could be terrible for

39:08

the other person who may

39:10

have had to jump with him. He was an innocent

39:12

bystander. The other

39:14

thing that people have thought a

39:16

lot about are the weather conditions because this

39:19

turned into just a horrendous storm that

39:22

is absolutely not ideal whatsoever for jumping

39:24

out of a plane in and try

39:26

to get away. So because

39:28

of the weather, people have speculated that

39:30

DB Cooper may not have known what

39:32

he was doing. Now,

39:35

you know, we talked about when he showed up at

39:37

the ticket counter to buy his one way ticket, he

39:39

asked what type of plane it was. And

39:41

so you would think if he had in

39:44

mind the type of plane, which involved understanding

39:46

of the physicality and the physics of the

39:48

plane, how slow really it could fly and

39:50

still stay in the air with the stairs

39:52

down, all these sorts of different metrics that

39:54

he would have of course factored in a

39:57

huge thing that affects planes, weather conditions

39:59

and wind. After the fact

40:01

that it was raining on hailing

40:03

and a wizard that's where extreme

40:05

and the temperature in the air

40:07

would have been frigid, people have

40:09

speculated that maybe he wasn't as

40:11

sophisticated as we've given him credit

40:13

for. You see, Cooper would have

40:15

jumped into a fifteen degree. Incredibly

40:18

windy, incredibly rainy

40:20

storm. While

40:23

carrying ten thousand dell strapped to

40:25

him. With. A parachute that

40:27

is, of course, beholden to when I

40:29

don't know, I could see that going

40:31

both ways, right? Because it worked in

40:33

his favor that the storm was so

40:35

bad. The storm lasted so long that

40:38

they couldn't do a proper search for

40:40

him. It made the jump incredibly risky,

40:42

but the whole endeavor was really risky

40:44

anyway. and. We. Can barely

40:46

predict the weather today. It's very

40:48

possible that it would not be

40:51

that bad or a got worse

40:53

very quickly any today. I.

40:55

Don't know about you brat, But my kids

40:57

all got out of school early dismissal by

41:00

noon because they expected tornadoes to hit all

41:02

over the area. We didn't get a drop

41:04

of rain until five pm and then

41:06

it wasn't It was vain for barely any

41:08

thunder and certainly no tornadoes, but they cancelled

41:11

school. For. It and so. This.

41:13

Is you know? More. Than fifty years

41:15

later, And he will have

41:18

speculated that Db Cooper is a weatherman.

41:20

We think maybe he's a parachute or

41:22

a military man or an airplane mechanic,

41:24

but I don't know how much to

41:26

read into the fact that it ended

41:28

up being. A very rainy

41:30

day. He could have said that

41:32

was part of his plan or that. He

41:34

like so many people after him are unable

41:36

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43:00

Empathy is our best policy. Look,

43:05

you know, we've been going through this, and

43:07

as we've talked about it, we've talked about

43:10

evidence and what are clues that we have.

43:12

I think the first thing we always have to guard

43:15

against is our assumption, and we talk about this in

43:17

a lot of different cases, that

43:19

all criminals are geniuses and everything they

43:21

do is intentional. We get that from

43:23

movies, right? In movies, criminals make no

43:26

mistakes. It's impossible to solve their crimes,

43:28

and it's only because of the plucky

43:30

resources of the hero

43:33

detective that were able to unravel their

43:35

incredibly complicated, incredibly sophisticated plan, right? I

43:37

mean, that's the movies. In real life,

43:39

that's not how it goes at all.

43:43

In real life, Murphy's Law is never more

43:45

in effect than it is when you're committing

43:47

a crime, and things happen that you don't

43:49

anticipate. So, you know,

43:51

you can look at this case and think

43:53

that every single thing D.B. Cooper did was

43:55

intentional. You know, when he's standing on those

43:57

stairs, the stairs have been down for 15

44:01

minutes before he jumps. He's

44:03

peering through the sky,

44:06

the topography, which he knows like the back

44:08

of his hand, waiting for the perfect moment

44:10

to leap from the plane so he'll land

44:12

exactly where he wants to be. Or

44:15

he's standing there thinking, I

44:17

have made a terrible mistake.

44:20

What am I thinking? And

44:22

then finally he's just like, well, there's no going

44:24

back now. And he leaps into the void. Right.

44:26

And it's hard to say which one of those

44:28

is going on here. You know,

44:30

did he take the, the reserve parachute that

44:32

was sewn shut because he knew he didn't

44:35

need it. And he thought, they

44:37

gave me one of these. Let's throw them off. I'm going to take

44:39

this one. Or was it a mistake?

44:41

And did he land and look at

44:43

his parachute and realize, Oh, well, I'm glad

44:45

my main one opened because this one doesn't

44:47

even work. It's, it's hard

44:50

to say. Now the thing that I'll say, I am

44:52

absolutely certain of, I think he

44:55

had a working knowledge of this plane one

44:58

way or the other. He did not have a perfect

45:00

knowledge. It seems like for instance,

45:02

that he did not know exactly how to

45:04

open those back stairs. He sort of got

45:06

a run through from Tina Mucklow. He looked

45:08

at the, at the instructions and

45:10

then he did it himself, but he knew enough

45:12

about the airplane to know that it had the

45:14

stairs, to know that it could take off and

45:16

land with the stairs down, to know about putting

45:18

the flaps at 15 degrees, to

45:21

make it fly slower. Same thing with

45:23

the wheels down. Knew that it could

45:25

fly at that speed at 10,000

45:28

feet with no problem, which was something that

45:30

even the pilots weren't sure

45:32

of. Interestingly, one group of

45:34

people who did know that you could fly

45:36

that plane with the stairs down was,

45:39

let's just go ahead, see the

45:41

wrap hole. We're about to dive right into

45:43

it. Was the CIA because CIA had used

45:46

these planes in covert

45:48

operations in Air America,

45:51

for instance, in various places around the

45:53

world to drop cargo out the backup.

45:55

They'd drop that back stairs down and

45:58

they would push stuff out. for

46:00

people they were supporting in other countries.

46:02

So they knew about it, even if

46:04

they didn't work for Boeing, for instance.

46:06

And of course, that has led a

46:08

lot of people down that pathway,

46:11

that this person was a CIA operator, someone who

46:13

had been involved in this, the kind of person

46:15

who would be bold enough to do something like

46:17

jump out the back of a plane after

46:20

calmly doing everything he did with

46:23

$200,000 strapped to him. It's

46:25

hard to say. Basically, we can talk through

46:28

like any piece of evidence

46:30

could go from like, he's a

46:32

superhero to he's an idiot. Yes,

46:36

exactly. Now look, and maybe

46:38

this is my bias, but I

46:41

don't think you plan this crime the way he

46:43

planned it, unless you were comfortable jumping

46:45

out of planes. Like I just don't think you'd, I

46:47

would not pick that. If someone who's never

46:49

jumped out of a plane, if I was trying to come up with

46:51

a way to get money, hijacking a

46:53

plane and jumping out the back of it would not be the

46:55

plan I would come up with. Because there

46:58

were other hijackings, as we know, many hundreds

47:00

of hijackings where it did not involve jumping

47:02

out of a plane where they got away

47:04

with hijacking. Right? It was lots

47:06

of demands. It was bomb threats. They

47:08

land the plane and they end

47:10

up somewhere else. So it's not like this was

47:13

the only way to hijack a plane either in

47:15

terms of all the examples he had around him. Mallory

47:18

in the chat thinks her grandfather was DB Cooper.

47:20

So I thought that look, all I'm

47:22

saying is go look for some journals, some

47:25

written words, okay? Do you want to pay for

47:27

things in 20s? That is right. Maybe

47:31

go look at your, your $20

47:33

press fund and see what

47:35

the serial numbers are. So over the

47:37

course of the next two months, ground

47:39

and air searches continue over hundreds of

47:41

square miles. But as we

47:44

know, there's no sign of DB Cooper

47:46

at all. And

47:49

as you can tell from these

47:51

episodes and the facts of this

47:53

case, DB Cooper has

47:55

become a folk hero to many

47:58

Americans nationwide. The case may. have

48:00

maintained publicity for months and years,

48:02

really decades to come, and

48:04

tips and confessions have poured in by

48:06

the thousands, including, as we've talked about,

48:09

false confessions of who D.B. Cooper is.

48:12

There were even several elaborate hoaxes claiming

48:14

to know who the real D.B. Cooper

48:16

was, but nothing

48:19

has ever proved fruitful.

48:22

Over the first five years of the

48:24

investigation, the FBI considered over 800 suspects. That's

48:29

a lot of people. In

48:32

other words, there was very little narrowing

48:34

as to who they thought this was.

48:37

But they put their best and their

48:39

brightest on it. They poured resources into

48:41

it. They had, like, the best planes

48:43

and the military in on trying to

48:45

figure this case out, and it remains

48:47

unsolved to this day. We're going

48:49

to get through the timeline here before we end

48:51

today. I know that we've—I just love this case.

48:54

Well, even as we talk, and I know this case,

48:56

I'm like, huh, that was the first time I thought about

48:58

the Reserve Pack. You know? Yeah. There

49:01

is so much here, and this is worth

49:03

talking about because if this hadn't been a

49:05

case that was 50 years unsolved, then just

49:07

go with the timeline. But clearly, we've missed

49:09

something along the way. Right, and

49:11

that's the thing. People spend their lives

49:13

on this case. December

49:15

8, 1971, the U.S. Attorney

49:18

General, John Mitchell, made

49:20

an announcement that they were going

49:22

to release the serial numbers of

49:24

the, remember, $10,020 bills that made

49:28

up Cooper's ransom. Now,

49:31

at first, no bills with the matching serials

49:34

were found, which fueled speculation that Cooper died

49:36

jumping from the plane and led to a

49:38

lot of people walking through the woods trying

49:40

to find the ransom money. Because

49:43

if Cooper died, then

49:45

there's $200,000 sitting in

49:47

the forest somewhere that somebody could

49:49

find. And that's one of the great television radio

49:52

interviews of people who lived around there, about what

49:54

they'd do if they found the money. And the

49:56

universal opinion was they would keep it. Imagine

50:00

that the problem Now if they release

50:02

the serial numbers but we're going. talk

50:04

about we get into some the details

50:06

of this case. Why that actually wasn't

50:08

that helpful? And finding

50:11

out who Db cooper.

50:13

Was. To that's Nineteen Seventy.

50:15

One. Not much happens for another seven

50:17

years. And then in November of Nineteen

50:19

Seventy Eight. There's. A hunter,

50:21

google or some hunting would go

50:24

sabian. Solve any grumps. There's one

50:26

hunter wandering around in Castle Rock,

50:28

Washington. This is in the general

50:30

flight path of the Seven Twenty

50:33

Seven, and he's a plastic placard

50:35

with the operating instructions for the

50:37

aft stairs and this placard was

50:39

linked to Cooper's planes of this

50:41

was probably the placard that he

50:44

read to lower and those stairs

50:46

And I'll just say. That. That's

50:48

for sale anywhere. I want

50:50

to go in only the auction that's

50:52

that's a piece of memorabilia that I

50:54

would lie down and the blanket so

50:56

now nobody has probably and some every

50:58

a vault somewhere but they find like

51:00

the cigarette butts in the glass here

51:03

very gives everybody wears but if there's

51:05

a better chance of being preserved then

51:07

in February nineteen eighty the main F

51:09

B I agent who had worked this

51:11

case the guy when up in the

51:13

helicopter. At that the very

51:15

first day to drawn fall the plane the

51:17

didn't get there in time is when work

51:19

in his case or nine years he's getting

51:21

ready to retire. I believe is actually on

51:23

the very day he is going to retire.

51:26

A major. Brian.

51:28

Ingram. He was an eight year

51:30

old boy. funds five thousand, eight

51:33

hundred dollars and decomposing twenty dollar

51:35

bills by the edge of the

51:37

Columbia River near Vancouver, Washington. This

51:40

area is called Teen A Bar.

51:43

But. While. This is

51:45

exciting. It also is the first

51:48

indication that the Fbr is probably

51:50

completely wrong about where Db Cooper

51:52

landed unless which will get into

51:55

this money was planted. This is

51:57

forty five miles. Forty.

51:59

Five. miles southwest from

52:02

the search location where the

52:04

FBI believed D.B. Cooper had

52:07

landed and it

52:09

was in fact in the opposite direction.

52:12

The wind was blowing that day.

52:14

So does not seem like if

52:16

they had the original search area

52:18

correct that that is the area

52:20

he would jump. Now interestingly if

52:23

this was the area he landed other than the river

52:26

this would have been a much better place

52:28

to jump because there are many more places

52:30

to land. Now you may be thinking well

52:34

obviously if the money was found in the river then he

52:36

must have landed in the river. It is much more complicated

52:38

than that. We're going to spend some time on this money

52:41

what the fact that it still

52:43

existed means whether or not it

52:45

was in the river that whole time. The

52:47

money in some ways is almost

52:49

a greater mystery than what happened to D.B.

52:51

Cooper because it's sort of inexplicable that

52:54

this money was found where it was

52:56

in the condition it was nine years

52:59

after D.B. Cooper jumped out of

53:01

a plane. I know we're not

53:03

going to spend time on it right now but we are

53:05

going to nerd out about this money later as

53:08

we should because this is the only thing that we

53:10

have found that even

53:12

shows that D.B. Cooper was a real

53:14

person. Right? Like this is not

53:16

made up in lore. This is not some movie

53:19

that now has just like worked its way into

53:21

the American psyche. This is

53:23

like tangible evidence that

53:25

gravity worked even on this superhero

53:27

of a man that we have

53:29

now come to revere as folklore.

53:34

By the way just in case you're thinking well

53:36

if they've got the serial numbers if you spent

53:38

the money they would find it. Just a little

53:40

story about this. These people find this

53:42

money. They are like this

53:45

is D.B. Cooper's money. So they go

53:47

to the FBI and the guy who's getting ready to retire he's

53:49

like eating his cake or whatever putting on his gold watch. They

53:51

come in and they say hey we found some D.B. Cooper money and

53:54

he's like oh sure you have. And he's

53:56

like well it's got to be from like 1957. and

54:00

from this mint and he looks at one of the

54:02

bills and it's from, and this is, I'm making this

54:04

up, the 1957 thing. He's

54:07

like, well, it is from 1957 and it was minted

54:09

in San Francisco or wherever. So he's like, okay,

54:11

fine. So he goes, he leaves them in a

54:13

room. They're probably eating some of his retirement cake.

54:16

He goes back and he gets

54:18

out the massive book, The Ledger

54:20

with 10,000 serial numbers. Before

54:25

the days of control F, fine. And

54:28

he sits there and for the

54:30

next like 45 minutes goes

54:32

through every single serial

54:34

number trying to find this $20 bill.

54:38

And of course, you know, it's like, it's

54:40

always like this, right? It's on like the

54:42

last page. He finally finds

54:45

the serial number that matches the one

54:47

they brought in. And he's like, Oh

54:49

my goodness, it is DB Cooper's money.

54:51

But just imagine if every time somebody

54:53

went into a seven 11 to buy

54:55

Coke, the seven 11 Clark's like, okay,

54:57

well they paid for the 20. I

55:00

guess I got to get the book out

55:02

now and check to see whether this is

55:04

DB Cooper's money. And anyway, that's spoiler alert

55:06

on why having the serial numbers actually didn't

55:08

work out that well. And spoiler alert, just

55:11

because it hasn't been identified as being

55:13

in circulation doesn't mean it wasn't actually

55:15

in circulation. We just don't know whether

55:17

it was in circulation because if it

55:20

was that difficult for like an FBI agent to

55:22

find it, you know, and he was like dedicated

55:24

to this case, can you imagine if there's like

55:26

a line at the seven 11 and the clerk

55:29

was like, hold please 45 minutes later, $20

55:31

cleared. Next

55:33

person, please. Would you like to buy some Raleigh cigarettes

55:35

with your $20 bill? So

55:40

the check is only as good. There was

55:43

not some like wonderful database that you could

55:45

just run your money through and you know,

55:47

immediately it would ding or something like that.

55:49

You know, today what they

55:51

do is they, they put ink, so

55:53

you know, so you don't rob a

55:55

bank, they put ink, blots or whatever

55:57

it's called exploding ink.

56:00

things in the bag of money so that

56:02

the second you touch it, you don't have

56:04

to check the serial numbers because there will

56:06

be this die all over the bills, which

56:08

is like, man, we should have

56:10

done that from the beginning. You know, that's way

56:13

more easy to identify because any 7-Eleven clerk, for

56:15

example, could look down and be like, that's

56:18

interesting. Think about like if you go to a

56:20

clothing store like Old Navy or The Gap and

56:22

there's that like tag that's on the clothes. And

56:25

if you try to pull it off it, I think

56:27

tears a hole into your clothes or something like that. That's

56:30

essentially what they do for money that you

56:32

steal these days. So

56:35

we've really gone backwards in terms of like

56:37

the level of sophistication for

56:39

what we're looking for. It's because if

56:42

you want people to actually find all these thousands

56:44

of bills, it has to be something readily identifiable

56:46

for masses of people. Let me

56:48

just say just real quick, this

56:51

is like the worst thing that ever happened to the

56:53

Ingram family. There's people called the Cooper curse.

56:55

If you get too close to the DB Cooper case,

56:57

we've got to avoid this house. You

56:59

become cursed. And so Brian

57:02

Ingram, he finds this money. They

57:05

get this burst of fame. They're all

57:07

these rewards they think they're going to get. Well, first

57:10

turns out all the rewards have expired. So

57:12

they don't get any rewards. There's

57:14

all this national coverage. Well, the family

57:16

had moved from Oklahoma and

57:19

when they moved from Oklahoma, they

57:21

took their car as one might do. But

57:24

because of some sort of like reporting

57:26

snafu or something, the place that they

57:28

bought their car from didn't have their

57:30

address. So they couldn't send

57:32

them the bills. So

57:35

at some point they became delinquent

57:37

on the car and they actually

57:39

issued a warrant for Brian Ingram's

57:41

father's arrest. But

57:44

nobody thinks about it or finds him

57:46

or anything. Well then this becomes a

57:48

national story and the sheriff in that

57:50

little County is watching the news and

57:52

is like, that's that guy with the

57:54

car loan warrant. And they actually, and

57:56

I can't imagine, I mean this is

57:58

how law enforcement has changed because I I can't imagine anybody

58:01

doing this. They go out to where they

58:03

live and arrest the guy

58:05

in like Washington or wherever he

58:07

is for this car loan, this delinquent

58:09

car loan. And then there's a, like

58:12

a national press story. That's like son

58:15

gets father arrested, which you can only

58:17

imagine how, how it made this eight

58:19

year old feel when his dad gets

58:21

arrested because of this, it

58:23

caused like a lot of, there was a

58:25

lot of problems in the family because, you

58:27

know, people wanted money, they thought they had

58:29

gotten a bunch of money. So they wanted

58:31

money. So it was a really just disaster

58:33

for them. Brian Ingram eventually though, became like

58:35

a big DP Cooper scholar

58:37

and researcher, so he's at peace with

58:39

it. But nevertheless, just a wild story

58:42

about how fame can affect you. Totally.

58:45

That that sounds, that's really sad. Kind of

58:47

like all the lottery stories you hear when

58:49

anyone wins anything from the lottery, even if

58:52

it's a small amount, it seems like their

58:54

life is ruined. Okay. We're

58:56

almost, almost the end of the timeline, almost

58:59

July. Okay. So that was February

59:03

of 1980 when Brian

59:05

Ingram finds the decomposing money. You

59:08

must think now we're going nine years later, but

59:10

now the investigation is going. We have evidence. We're

59:12

going to search around that area. We're going to

59:14

find the rest of the money, or we're going

59:17

to find the parachute, or we're going to find

59:19

DB Cooper or signs of him, right? Wrong.

59:23

Nothing happens for decades.

59:26

So much nothing happens. In

59:28

fact, that on July 12th,

59:30

2016, the FBI officially

59:32

declares that they will no longer be

59:35

actively investigating the Norjack case

59:38

and their official statement is

59:40

this, which I'm going to read to you

59:42

verbatim. Following

59:44

one of the longest and most

59:46

exhaustive investigations in our history on

59:49

July 8th, 2016, the

59:52

FBI redirected resources allocated to

59:54

the DB Cooper case in

59:56

order to focus on other

59:58

investigative priorities during the. course

1:00:00

of the 45-year NORJAC investigation,

1:00:03

the FBI exhaustively reviewed

1:00:06

all credible leads, coordinated

1:00:08

between multiple field offices

1:00:10

to conduct searches, collected

1:00:12

all available evidence, and

1:00:14

interviewed all identified witnesses.

1:00:17

Over the years, the FBI has

1:00:20

applied numerous new and innovative investigative

1:00:22

techniques, as well as examined

1:00:24

countless items at the FBI

1:00:27

laboratory. Evidence obtained

1:00:29

during the course of the investigation

1:00:31

will now be preserved for historical

1:00:33

purposes at FBI headquarters in Washington,

1:00:35

D.C. The mystery surrounding

1:00:37

the hijacking of a Northwest-Orient Airlines

1:00:40

flight in November 1971 by a

1:00:42

still-unknown individual

1:00:45

resulted in significant international

1:00:48

attention and a decades-long

1:00:51

manhunt. Although the

1:00:53

FBI appreciated the immense number of

1:00:55

tips provided by members of the

1:00:57

public, none to date

1:00:59

have resulted in a definitive identification

1:01:01

of the hijacker. The

1:01:03

tips have conveyed plausible theories, descriptive

1:01:06

information about individuals potentially matching

1:01:08

the hijacker, and

1:01:10

anecdotes to include accounts of

1:01:13

sudden, unexplained wealth. In

1:01:16

order to solve a case,

1:01:18

the FBI must prove culpability

1:01:20

beyond a reasonable doubt and,

1:01:22

unfortunately, none of the

1:01:24

well-meaning tips or applications of

1:01:26

new investigative technology have yielded

1:01:28

the necessary proof. At

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Amica Insurance, we know

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building a plan for tomorrow, today.

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For the ones you'll always look out for, trust

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states of situations. Process vary based on how

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you buy. Every

1:03:09

time the FBI assesses additional tips for

1:03:11

the NorJack case, investigative

1:03:13

resources and manpower are

1:03:16

diverted from programs that more

1:03:18

urgently need attention. Although

1:03:21

the FBI will no longer actively

1:03:23

investigate this case, should

1:03:25

specific physical evidence emerge related

1:03:27

specifically to the parachutes or

1:03:30

the money taken by the

1:03:32

hijacker, individuals with those

1:03:34

materials are asked to contact

1:03:36

their local FBI field office.

1:03:39

So there's your challenge guys. Don't

1:03:42

find the bear's you. They've turned

1:03:44

it over to you. They can't do it. The

1:03:46

only people who can solve this case are

1:03:49

listeners to this podcast. So

1:03:52

that's a very defensive statement by the way.

1:03:54

It is. It's like, look guys, we tried

1:03:56

really hard. We tried really hard. We're

1:03:59

no match for DVR. Rep much far as the

1:04:01

target is, so we. We worth a

1:04:03

lot of press releases from the

1:04:05

Alphabet soup agencies and from our

1:04:07

offices so we like. Our job

1:04:09

is to review very long, a

1:04:11

lot of time. This one is

1:04:13

unlike any press release really affected.

1:04:15

It's very defensive, that's it. So

1:04:17

when. I don't normally say when

1:04:19

they're gonna stop investigating the oil

1:04:21

and now we're still investigating you

1:04:23

just closer or say. Anything. About it

1:04:26

because what happens in those cases? You get

1:04:28

a tip and it it's close. You don't

1:04:30

have to investigate it, put it into a

1:04:32

file keeping and. right? Exactly

1:04:35

so of an early is pretty interesting

1:04:37

and and some people said this is

1:04:39

the first case for the F B

1:04:41

I ever really tried to use crowdsourcing

1:04:44

to solve it. they and in they

1:04:46

did they shared. Evidence room. talk about

1:04:48

the money in some other things. In.

1:04:51

The time later on which a lot

1:04:53

of things that were discovered that have

1:04:55

really been. Breakthroughs in

1:04:57

this case were discovered by people

1:04:59

who really interested in this case.

1:05:02

There's. I think there's like a. Website.

1:05:04

Called like the Vortex or something. I

1:05:07

can't I can't remember but were low.

1:05:09

These people there. scientists. There's one guy

1:05:11

who apparently live in Alabama name's logo.

1:05:13

He's super involved by the F B

1:05:16

at some point to start sending out

1:05:18

there evidence. These people, they're like do

1:05:20

it again and they're like, well I

1:05:22

have an electron mack microscope so I'll

1:05:25

look at the Thai under the lectern.

1:05:27

fucking go. And they start does everything.

1:05:29

that missing minute we thought about that

1:05:31

was discovered by a sort of web

1:05:34

sleuth. Type person. So if you're out

1:05:36

there and your best a bad case, you

1:05:38

could be the one to crack it. or

1:05:40

you could become forever lost in this case

1:05:42

and lose everything you ever loved because of

1:05:45

it. To. watch out that is my

1:05:47

warning to you but next week we're

1:05:49

going to go through so of things

1:05:51

we've hinted at around talk about in

1:05:54

more detail some the interesting aspects of

1:05:56

this k some of the facts that

1:05:58

may are a little different And then

1:06:00

we're going to get into suspects.

1:06:05

We're going to talk about copycats. We're

1:06:07

going to talk about people

1:06:10

who worked for the airline, people

1:06:13

who were very clearly involved

1:06:15

in clandestine operations. We're

1:06:17

going to talk about one

1:06:20

woman who could be DB

1:06:23

Cooper. Turn that over in your heads.

1:06:25

So Jessica in the chats, favorite

1:06:27

suspect. I had only done

1:06:30

a couple sentences on her, but now

1:06:32

I'm going to expand it because she's pretty interesting actually.

1:06:34

But anyways, we got a lot of suspects that

1:06:36

we're going to look through. I have my

1:06:39

favorite suspect. Alice, I don't know if you

1:06:41

have picked a favorite suspect yet.

1:06:44

The more I look into it, the more I think

1:06:46

my favorite suspect is probably not the suspect. But nevertheless,

1:06:48

I'm sticking to it because I just like him. So

1:06:51

I'm gonna stick into it. I

1:06:53

think none of the named suspects are close

1:06:55

to the real person. So it's

1:06:57

more like the idea of who the suspect is like

1:06:59

the profile. I think if this is ever

1:07:01

solved, it probably will be something that no one is

1:07:03

looking at. It's going to be like

1:07:05

Joe D'Angelo in the Golden State Killer

1:07:07

case, where like people had exhaustive,

1:07:12

thousand person spreadsheets of possible suspects. And

1:07:14

then it turned out there was nobody

1:07:16

anybody was looking at. I totally could

1:07:18

see that happening here. Though

1:07:21

the uniqueness of this case, it's not just some

1:07:23

random person killing people. I mean, there's a lot

1:07:25

going on here that you would think would enable

1:07:27

you to narrow this down. So maybe one of

1:07:29

the known suspects is the person.

1:07:31

I mean, somebody did it unless

1:07:34

they didn't. Cause that's another theory. And

1:07:36

we'll talk about that as well. I'm gonna talk

1:07:38

about all that in a future episode. But for

1:07:40

now, Alice, would you like

1:07:42

to answer questions? Absolutely. Okay,

1:07:46

let's answer some

1:07:49

questions. If so

1:07:51

many now have hundreds of questions, it's always

1:07:53

hard. Wood wants to know

1:07:55

besides finding the body, what will it take

1:07:57

to make an arrest and prosecute the suspect?

1:08:00

and the Chiron-Horman

1:08:02

disappearance. That's

1:08:04

a case that we did, I guess,

1:08:07

over a year ago now, those of you who have

1:08:09

a father. Also in a similar area. Also

1:08:12

in a similar area, in the wilderness

1:08:14

there, made it difficult.

1:08:17

I would say, number one, I

1:08:19

don't think they'll find a body at this point. It's

1:08:21

been so long, I would be surprised. But

1:08:24

you never know. Obviously, that would be

1:08:26

helpful. But the only other thing is, if

1:08:28

someone knows something, saying

1:08:30

something, that's true in

1:08:32

a lot of cases. I think at this

1:08:35

point, it's not going to be forensics or

1:08:37

anything like that that solves it because, unfortunately,

1:08:39

there is so little evidence in that case.

1:08:41

He truly did seem to

1:08:43

vanish into thin air. And I think that's why this

1:08:45

case has been so hard to solve. Alice, I don't

1:08:48

know if you have any thoughts on that. Yeah,

1:08:50

I don't think the lack of prosecution in this case

1:08:52

is because of the lack of a body. You can

1:08:55

prosecute a case without a body. And I

1:08:57

don't know that finding a body at

1:08:59

this point would even yield enough forensic

1:09:02

evidence to point one theory or the

1:09:04

other. So I think it's

1:09:06

someone talking, someone confessing, someone

1:09:08

knowing something that they're able to come forward with and

1:09:10

try the case. Which

1:09:12

is very sad because he was

1:09:14

just a young child. Yes, it's an

1:09:17

incredibly sad case. It's one that I would love to see solved.

1:09:20

I hope it's solved one day. I hope that

1:09:22

family gets closure. But it's going to take something.

1:09:24

And that's why the best we can do is

1:09:26

to keep spreading it as much as possible and

1:09:29

hope that one day it will

1:09:31

be solved. Aunt Dana

1:09:34

wants to know, or Dana,

1:09:36

could be Dana, do you ever

1:09:38

feel burned out or do you have a

1:09:41

broader range of cases that you're able to

1:09:43

work to keep fresh? What

1:09:45

about you, Alice? I only laugh because I was like, do

1:09:47

I feel burned out like in life all the time? But

1:09:50

I think he meant professionally. I

1:09:54

don't. I truly do not feel burned out

1:09:56

in the practice of law, if that's what you're talking about.

1:09:58

Podcasting never. just podcasting

1:10:00

is so much fun because I get to

1:10:03

deal with you. And partly law is the

1:10:05

same, right? I get very exhausted after a

1:10:07

very intense case that we

1:10:09

may have tried that happens after every

1:10:11

big trial. I think I feel very tired and I feel

1:10:14

like I'll never be able to do it again. But

1:10:16

that's not burned out. That's more like

1:10:19

you finally finished the race and you

1:10:21

are sitting down to like rest.

1:10:24

And I think that's why I'm drawn to the practice

1:10:27

of law is every new case,

1:10:29

even if it's the same subject matter is

1:10:31

going to be different based on the specific

1:10:33

facts of that case. So you kind of

1:10:35

have to relearn everything and you get to

1:10:37

learn new areas of the law and of

1:10:39

life all the time. I learn

1:10:42

about like swabs of the world that

1:10:44

I otherwise wouldn't know anything about because

1:10:47

of the case they have. For

1:10:49

some that's like a nightmare because you

1:10:51

never get comfortable in your own skin

1:10:53

as a lawyer, essentially. Everything is kind

1:10:56

of always shifting sands. But to me,

1:10:58

that's really exciting because I don't sit

1:11:00

at a desk and like press

1:11:02

a widget button all day. And my

1:11:05

job never will be that, which is why it's so

1:11:07

exciting. And a lot of people have asked like, why

1:11:09

are you guys crazy people? Why do you still work

1:11:11

like highly intense day jobs as lawyers

1:11:14

and, you know, raise

1:11:16

families and podcasts? And part of it

1:11:18

is I kind of love lawyering because

1:11:20

of the excitement and

1:11:22

ability for me to learn areas

1:11:25

of the world that I otherwise wouldn't know about.

1:11:27

Like I probably will never be a farmer, but

1:11:29

I've been able to learn because of a case

1:11:31

so much about an

1:11:34

area of farming, you know, whether

1:11:36

it be soybeans or meat or

1:11:38

processing, and you like get

1:11:40

to dive in and interview witnesses and know

1:11:42

everything about that area and then apply it

1:11:45

to the law, which is the special part.

1:11:47

That was a really law nerd answer. That

1:11:50

was. No, I mean, I

1:11:52

think we're both very fortunate in that

1:11:55

our careers have allowed us to be very flexible. I mean,

1:11:57

there are a lot of people out there. I mean, lawyers.

1:12:00

have a high rate of alcoholism, depression,

1:12:02

and stuff like that, drug use.

1:12:05

And a lot of legal

1:12:08

jobs are incredibly draining

1:12:10

and can be the kind of things that

1:12:12

burn you out. Alice

1:12:14

and I, I think, have been very

1:12:16

fortunate in the jobs we've gotten to

1:12:18

do, even when they've been hard and

1:12:20

draining, they are always exciting and different.

1:12:23

So I think we're very lucky, and

1:12:25

that's not everyone's experience in the law. For

1:12:28

the podcast, I never get tired of

1:12:30

doing the podcast. And

1:12:32

I can't imagine being

1:12:34

burned out of that. I

1:12:37

get tired of some of the stuff around

1:12:39

it. I'll be honest with you,

1:12:41

I am more and more frustrated

1:12:46

with some of the stuff that

1:12:48

surrounds podcasting and

1:12:51

interacting with people. But

1:12:53

that's just, I mean, that's my fault

1:12:55

because I'm very involved in social media.

1:12:57

It's not your fault. It is not

1:13:00

your fault, Brett. It is not your

1:13:02

fault. We're having a little therapy session

1:13:04

right here. It's not, but it's

1:13:06

just, that can be draining. But

1:13:08

I mean, that's just, you

1:13:11

just have to take a step back from that because the actual

1:13:13

doing the podcast, like this is a lot of fun, interacting with

1:13:15

the people who are here now from

1:13:18

our patrons is great. So

1:13:21

some of the cases are tough, some

1:13:24

of the cases weigh on you. If

1:13:27

you really care about this stuff and you do

1:13:29

it, the cases, they can really start to affect

1:13:31

you because you learn a

1:13:33

lot about the worst things that ever happened

1:13:35

to people, some of which are children.

1:13:39

And you get to know the families.

1:13:41

I mean, it is hard to overstate.

1:13:43

If you have not been involved in

1:13:45

a crime or suffered from

1:13:47

a crime or worked in criminal justice, you

1:13:50

really cannot understand the impact that

1:13:53

a crime has on people. We

1:13:55

had a case in my office, I won't say too much about

1:13:57

it because part of it is still ongoing, but it was a

1:13:59

murder case. We don't have many murder cases. Very rare that we

1:14:01

have a murder case. We did have a murder case. As

1:14:05

you guys know, I do the appeals and there will be an appeal

1:14:07

in this case. I knew there'd be an appeal in this case, so

1:14:09

I was working on it with the folks

1:14:12

who were trying it, and I was there

1:14:14

for the verdict. I walked into

1:14:16

the courtroom and the

1:14:18

family was all

1:14:21

... They were in one of the

1:14:23

benches. They were all on their knees and they were

1:14:25

praying because this was the moment. I

1:14:27

mean, as stressful as this is for lawyers when you

1:14:29

know the jury's coming back, just imagine if

1:14:32

one of your loved ones had been murdered and

1:14:35

you truly believe the person who has been

1:14:37

accused of this did it. Now,

1:14:39

12 people are going to walk in that room and tell you where

1:14:41

they're ever going to get justice. That

1:14:44

had an effect on me seeing

1:14:47

that and the person was convicted and

1:14:49

seeing their reaction, but that stuff

1:14:51

can weigh on you. You just

1:14:53

have to keep everything in perspective. In the

1:14:55

podcast, really, it's just fun. We

1:14:58

have fun doing it, but this is weighty stuff.

1:15:00

I mean, DB Cooper, not so much. That's one

1:15:02

reason I enjoy doing DB Cooper so much. Not

1:15:05

so much weighty stuff, but a lot of stuff is,

1:15:08

and I think it's really important ...

1:15:10

I'm rambling now, but it's really important

1:15:12

for all of us who are true

1:15:14

crime consumers, true crime creators to always

1:15:16

remember that we are doing

1:15:19

this for entertainment and don't lie to

1:15:21

yourself and say you're not, but there

1:15:24

are very real people who have suffered

1:15:26

some horrible things that we're talking about,

1:15:28

and you have to keep that at the front of your mind. What

1:15:31

Brett just said right now about being affected by

1:15:33

our daily

1:15:35

life job, I think, helps

1:15:38

us in the podcast world. That's partly why

1:15:40

I'm unwilling to give up the foot

1:15:42

we have in each world, because

1:15:45

when you live your life

1:15:47

entirely behind a computer, behind a microphone, it's

1:15:49

pretty easy to forget that these

1:15:51

are real people's lives. I'm not just talking

1:15:54

about the victims. I'm also talking about the

1:15:56

suspects we're talking about, the investigators we're talking

1:15:58

about who we say ... Lost

1:16:00

cigarette butts and lost, you know x y

1:16:02

and z those may have been the worst

1:16:04

days of those people's lives But

1:16:06

when you hide behind a microphone you hide behind a screen

1:16:09

name or a Twitter or X Handle

1:16:12

all of a sudden you become 11 feet tall

1:16:14

and you think your words can spout off

1:16:16

as you wish and when you

1:16:19

see Real people in

1:16:21

court on a daily basis with

1:16:23

real tears and real impacts of

1:16:25

their lives Based on

1:16:27

what is happening in the legal system Based

1:16:30

on investigations and cases that you prosecute

1:16:34

It brings you down to reality real fast and

1:16:37

that it absolutely informs the way we do

1:16:39

this podcast and it informs the way I

1:16:41

live my life every single day You know,

1:16:43

it's certainly made me a more compassionate person because

1:16:46

I'm like, oh, there's a lot of darkness in

1:16:48

this world and I think

1:16:51

we all as true crime

1:16:53

consumers Would benefit

1:16:55

from recognizing that you cannot remind

1:16:57

yourself too much of this every

1:17:00

single person We talk about every

1:17:02

single one of these stories Not just the victims

1:17:05

or real people with immense complexity in their

1:17:07

lives leading up to the moment in which

1:17:09

we are talking about them in this one

1:17:11

slice of a story this one slice of

1:17:13

the story is but a second in their

1:17:15

entire lives and Having

1:17:19

a responsibility to discuss it

1:17:23

with maturity compassion

1:17:26

is the very least that we can do

1:17:28

as podcasters and also all of

1:17:30

you as consumers of These

1:17:32

podcasts when you talk about it as well

1:17:34

Which is why I really love this community

1:17:36

because I do think the gravity

1:17:39

is Imparted on the conversations

1:17:41

that we see about the cases we discuss by

1:17:44

this group by these people who listen But

1:17:46

so really that's just patting you all on the back.

1:17:48

But a reminder Be kind

1:17:51

in how you talk about these cases be

1:17:53

kind and how you speak in everyday life we

1:17:56

see obviously kind of the most extremes of humanity

1:18:01

through the podcast, but also through our jobs. But

1:18:04

everything you encounter on a daily basis, we're

1:18:07

just on that spectrum. Just because

1:18:09

we see one side of the spectrum doesn't mean we're not

1:18:11

all on the same spectrum. Sometimes that person

1:18:13

at the grocery store is like one step away

1:18:16

from completely breaking down and you cutting them

1:18:18

off at the checkout line could make the

1:18:20

difference. So

1:18:23

long way of saying not burned out, but

1:18:26

exhausted often. Yeah. So

1:18:28

we'll end on one last question. This is

1:18:31

from Grace Rules and

1:18:33

it's, it's a fairly straight for a

1:18:35

question. Could you give a shout out

1:18:38

to Grammy AKA Robin? Hi

1:18:41

Grammy, AKA Robin. Grace loves

1:18:43

you very much. We love you too. I'm going

1:18:46

to assume you're listening and forgive me a shout

1:18:48

out to you. Shout out Robin. I

1:18:51

love that. I love that someone used their question

1:18:53

to do that. That is very sweet. Me

1:18:56

too. Me too. So awesome.

1:18:58

That was great. Okay.

1:19:00

So we're going to be back next week

1:19:02

for the more on DB Cooper. We want

1:19:04

to hear your thoughts. We want to hear

1:19:06

your theories. Shoot us an email, prosecutors, pod@gmail.com

1:19:09

at prosecutors pod. Prosecutors

1:19:12

pod. Yeah. For all your social media.

1:19:14

Only say that's every episode for all

1:19:16

your social media, including Tik TOK, Twitter,

1:19:18

whatever we call it now, Facebook, join

1:19:20

the gallery. Gallery's fantastic. We're close to

1:19:22

10,000 members. If you're not a member, you

1:19:24

should be a member. Just great discussions. I'll

1:19:26

just tell you, they've been talking about this Apple

1:19:28

river case that you guys are obsessed with on

1:19:32

the gallery. And it has been some

1:19:34

of the best discussion as a divisive

1:19:37

case and great discussion

1:19:39

and analysis from people on both sides,

1:19:42

and that's what you can get. On there. It is

1:19:44

a place you can go. You can disagree. You

1:19:46

can have the opposite views on things. Fantastic.

1:19:49

So I'm a love

1:19:51

that place. We didn't start it.

1:19:53

We can't take any credit for it. The moderators are

1:19:56

fantastic. They do so much work to keep it

1:19:58

that way. So join it. Enjoy

1:20:01

it. Take advantage of it. It's really

1:20:03

great. Also, for those of you

1:20:05

who don't know, we do have a store. People

1:20:07

like to buy merchandise, so just put some new

1:20:09

merchandise up. I'll

1:20:11

post a link. If you're listening to this, it'll

1:20:13

be in the show notes. I'll post a link

1:20:15

so you can check out some of our latest

1:20:17

stuff, as well as the stuff we have. And

1:20:20

I'll only mention it because very soon we'll

1:20:22

be in CrimeCon. So if you want to

1:20:24

wear some merch representing the prosecutors, we'd love

1:20:26

to see you in it. We hope that

1:20:29

you'll come to see us in Nashville. It

1:20:31

is not too late, though it

1:20:33

may be getting pretty close to sold out. You can use

1:20:35

code prosecutors for 10% off. We're

1:20:37

really excited to see you there. And last,

1:20:39

but certainly not least, thank you to everyone

1:20:42

who has joined Patreon, where you can listen to

1:20:44

these episodes early in ad-free, or if you so

1:20:47

desire, join us live for

1:20:49

the recordings, as some 60

1:20:51

people are currently with us

1:20:54

talking about everything except

1:20:57

DB Cooper. That

1:20:59

is often the case. All

1:21:02

right, Alice, do you have anything else you want to add before

1:21:04

we sign off for today? No,

1:21:06

thanks for joining us on this like

1:21:08

rollercoaster of an emotions, man. From

1:21:11

eclipses to DB Coopers to

1:21:14

air shows to soulful

1:21:16

questions. As it is, we're

1:21:19

the prosecutors always. For those of

1:21:21

you watching live, so we have

1:21:23

the kids did artwork for

1:21:25

DB Cooper. So I'm going

1:21:27

to show some of the artwork. He wouldn't let

1:21:30

me take any of them. As

1:21:32

I do. As I do. He wouldn't

1:21:35

let me take even one. Some of

1:21:37

them have like a real future. I mean, some

1:21:39

of them draw like I do. No offense,

1:21:41

kids. But some of them are like,

1:21:44

really, really good ones. They

1:21:46

tried to do it in the style

1:21:48

of Hannah Hill are amazing artists. These

1:21:50

kids are just amazing. They're

1:21:53

just their music,

1:21:55

their artwork. It was it was

1:21:58

such a joy to go to Liddance. We I don't. think

1:22:00

that will be our last time there. It will not

1:22:02

be. We're definitely going to go back. I just love liddits.

1:22:04

I may move to liddits. So don't move there. Cute

1:22:06

as tiny little town ever. I'm going to keep it a secret. It is. All

1:22:10

right. We've talked enough. We'll be back

1:22:13

next week. But until then, I'm

1:22:16

Brett. And I'm Alice. And

1:22:18

we are the Prosecutors. Whenever I leave town,

1:22:28

I have to really

1:22:30

check my levels because

1:22:35

this closet

1:22:38

ain't protected. Nice.

1:22:46

Okay. I can't wait to see what anyone

1:22:48

else sees the total eclipse because I

1:22:50

was in Dallas and

1:22:53

it was incredible. Like, it was.

1:22:56

I knew it was going to be amazing and it was as amazing

1:22:58

as I thought it was going to be. Like

1:23:02

when, you know, when you watch it like

1:23:04

totally eclipse the whole like where

1:23:06

I was standing, there were a bunch of people

1:23:08

just because everyone that comes out of the building

1:23:10

to watch like just started like cheering. And it

1:23:12

was like, it was so great. It was like a

1:23:14

great moment of humanity. But

1:23:18

anyways. You got

1:23:20

a little dark here. I know. Well,

1:23:23

that's here. Here's the crazy thing. This is how

1:23:25

powerful the sun is, right? Like it doesn't get

1:23:27

it's like a light switches off. It's not quite.

1:23:29

I don't know. I don't know if other

1:23:31

people had different experiences. So it wasn't like

1:23:33

pitch black at all. But

1:23:36

the difference between like, like

1:23:38

the second before total eclipse and

1:23:40

actual eclipse was stark. The

1:24:00

No TV has over 300 channels

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and thousands of TV shows

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mood you're

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good will already be playing because it's curated by people who

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the mood for comedy, there's 18 channels that'll

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even more Star Trek. No matter what

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