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1:06

Huggy's Little Movers. Get your baby's

1:08

butt into Huggy's Little Movers. We got

1:10

you, baby. I'm

1:19

Brett. And I'm Alice. And

1:22

we are The Prosecutors. Today

1:30

on The Prosecutors.

1:37

A young woman goes missing after a night out on

1:39

the town with her ex. Six

1:41

years later, Jermaine Charleau's family

1:43

is still wondering, where

1:46

is she? Hello,

2:13

everybody, and welcome to this episode

2:15

of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett,

2:18

and I'm joined as always by

2:20

my Zun Gidee, a co-host, Alice.

2:24

Hi, Brett. I think we've just

2:26

officially shifted to like any

2:28

descriptor outside of the English language because after

2:30

four years, I think that's what happened. You

2:33

run out of English words to describe me.

2:35

That's true. I mean, I really have. That

2:37

was a rough take on

2:39

Ojibwe that means brave, and

2:41

we have Sophie to thank

2:44

for that. And you

2:46

are brave, Alice. I think that's a

2:48

good description of you. Not when

2:50

it comes to like spiders and cockroaches and snakes, but

2:52

you know. Well, that's

2:54

a different kind of bravery, right? Sometimes

2:57

you just have to know. Knowing

3:00

what you're afraid of is a form of bravery in

3:02

and of itself. So that's all I'm

3:04

saying. I said every not brave person. Yes,

3:07

well, that's true. That's

3:12

true. Well, actually speaking of bravery, I do

3:14

think this is really important because we have

3:17

covered a number of

3:19

missing and murdered indigenous women

3:21

cases, and there are

3:23

not enough episodes to give the

3:25

amount of airtime these cases deserve.

3:28

And we've told you this in past cases

3:30

where part of the problem with covering these

3:33

cases is that there's so little information about

3:35

them, whether it's because they don't get a

3:37

lot of investigation or that they just don't

3:39

get kind of the attention, media attention

3:42

that other cases may get. And

3:44

so there are people and podcasts

3:46

and organizations that have cropped up

3:49

over the years specifically to speak

3:51

out on MMIW, Missing and Murdered

3:53

Indigenous Women. And they are really

3:55

incredibly brave because a lot of these people

3:58

who cover these cases live those

4:00

lives on these reservations themselves and to speak

4:02

out is a form of bravery in itself.

4:04

So not to make light of bravery but

4:07

when I think about people who are doing

4:09

that type of reporting like I'm

4:11

anything but brave next to them. And

4:14

one podcast we have to mention is

4:16

the stolen podcast which covered this case

4:18

in depth and has covered a number

4:20

of other cases of a

4:23

similar nature. Very good podcast, you should check

4:25

it out. It's really enjoyable. We listened to

4:27

this podcast and sort of preparation for this.

4:31

And Germaine's case is one like

4:33

so many that I think shines a

4:35

light not only on her individual case

4:37

but also the greater problem. When you

4:40

listen to these cases, we

4:42

talk about this, you can wax poetic about

4:44

true crime all day long and

4:46

we talk about sometimes what's the point,

4:48

why do we do this, yes it's

4:50

entertainment, but what else? And

4:52

obviously focusing on the victims is always

4:54

important but when you listen to the

4:56

stories like this you also learn about

4:59

other bigger problems that are

5:01

pervasive in a lot of areas.

5:04

And I think it's worth shining light on

5:06

that. Stolen does a really good job of

5:08

that and sort of uses Germaine's story to

5:11

speak to a bigger issue. So I hope you

5:13

guys will listen to that podcast. Look I know some of

5:15

y'all don't like it when we cover the cases that don't

5:17

have a lot of information but we think it's important to

5:19

cover these cases because there's a reason

5:21

they don't have much information because not many people

5:23

cover them and it can be a vicious cycle.

5:25

Nobody covers it, so nobody talks about it, there's

5:27

not a lot of information and we

5:30

think getting these stories out is important

5:32

and look they're also their mysteries just

5:34

like the other ones and they have

5:36

answers and somebody out there has those

5:38

answers and we're gonna keep covering these

5:41

whenever we can because we think

5:43

it's important and we

5:45

think these are cases that more people

5:47

need to know about. Indeed so with that

5:49

and those of you who are listening live already we're seeing

5:51

a lot of people say you haven't heard of

5:53

this case and so I'm doubly

5:56

glad that we're getting to cover it today so let's dive

5:58

in to who we are talking

6:00

about today, and that's Jermaine Charlo, who

6:02

was only 23 years old

6:05

when she disappeared without a trace on June

6:07

16, 2018

6:09

from Missoula, Montana. So one thing to note here,

6:11

so this one's in the United States. We've covered a

6:14

couple of MMIW cases in Canada.

6:16

So not only is this in

6:18

the United States, but it's a really

6:20

recent case. She disappeared almost

6:23

six years ago to the day, and

6:25

these cases are so difficult when you

6:27

have someone who really just disappears seemingly

6:30

into thin air. But

6:32

hopefully, as we go through the timeline, we can

6:34

glean some information and try

6:37

to reach some answers, because six years is too

6:39

long for her children. She

6:42

has two sons and her family not to

6:44

know what happened to her. Now, as

6:46

we've mentioned, Jermaine is an indigenous woman

6:48

who is a member of the Confederated

6:50

Salish and Kutanag tribes.

6:53

She was born in Dixon, Montana,

6:56

which is a small community within

6:58

the Flathead Indian reservation, where she

7:00

lived up until the time of

7:02

her disappearance. Jermaine has two sons,

7:05

Thomas and Jake, and

7:07

they were very, very young when their

7:09

mother disappeared. Thomas was not even four

7:11

years old yet, and Jake was two

7:13

and a half years old. And

7:16

you can see pictures of Jermaine on

7:18

our YouTube page or on our website,

7:20

and you can see for yourself that

7:22

she's been described as very beautiful,

7:24

highly social, loved people, an

7:27

outdoorsy type whose main priority

7:29

was being a good mom to

7:32

her boys. Jermaine

7:34

seemingly up and vanished after

7:36

leading the Bad Lander, which

7:38

is a bar in downtown

7:40

Missoula. She had been at that

7:42

bar and a couple other bars that night

7:44

with her ex-boyfriend, who was also the father

7:46

of her children, Michael de France. And

7:50

she was last seen in the early

7:52

morning hours of June 16, 2018. Nearly six

7:54

years later, Jermaine's

7:58

family is seemingly no closer to her. to

8:00

getting any answers about her

8:03

strange disappearance. Now,

8:05

Jermaine's story is a sad one, but

8:07

unfortunately not an uncommon one

8:09

for indigenous women in America.

8:11

In 2015, the National Congress of American

8:14

Indians found that an estimated 40% of

8:17

women who are victims of sex

8:19

trafficking identify as American Indian,

8:22

Alaska Native, or First

8:24

Nations. Additionally, a 2016 study

8:26

by Urban Indian Health Institute found

8:29

that the murder rate for women

8:31

living on reservations is 10 times

8:33

higher than the national average, and

8:35

that murder is the third leading

8:38

cause of death for Native women.

8:40

These are staggering statistics, is

8:42

a reality for Native

8:44

women living in the United States, and

8:46

Jermaine's story is but one of them.

8:49

And we've discussed the reasons for this, and

8:52

we won't dwell on them, but

8:54

the interaction of different police authorities,

8:57

tribal police, state police,

9:00

federal authorities, different

9:02

laws, the way they interact, the

9:04

fact that so many problems

9:07

that are endemic to the

9:09

reservations, poverty, drug

9:12

abuse, alcoholism, sort

9:14

of generational trauma that includes

9:16

a lot of domestic violence.

9:19

This all combines to cause this, and there are a lot

9:22

of people who are working very hard

9:24

to make the situation better, but it's obviously

9:26

a big problem, and it's one that doesn't

9:28

get a lot of attention and doesn't get

9:30

a lot of resources, and

9:32

it perpetuates, and it perpetuates from generation

9:34

to generation, and Jermaine was

9:36

part of that. We're going to talk about her

9:38

relationship with her boyfriend. It wasn't the first time

9:40

she was in a violent relationship

9:44

because her father was also violent with

9:46

her mother, and so I

9:48

think her aunt was in

9:50

a relationship with a lot of domestic violence. Domestic

9:52

violence was something that plagued the

9:54

area and it plagued Jermaine's life, and you're going

9:56

to see that as we begin to walk through.

10:00

The history leading up to her disappearance

10:02

so let's start with her relationship with

10:04

michael de france because it's hard to

10:07

talk about this case and i talk

10:09

about their relationship germane

10:11

and michael de france they had

10:13

a very tumultuous relationship. With

10:16

documented incidents of domestic abuse

10:19

on the part of michael de france the

10:21

exact timeline of their relationship is difficult to

10:23

confirm. But michael's mother

10:26

recall them dating on

10:28

and off for about eight years.

10:31

April thirteen twenty thirteen germane and michael

10:34

got in an argument at their home

10:36

in dixon montana michael is the father

10:38

of germane children and they're living together

10:41

according to police. germane

10:44

told the police that de france held her

10:46

down across the hood of a van hit

10:48

her four times in the face and head

10:50

through on the ground and spat on her.

10:53

Michael i think said he only hit her once. As

10:56

if that you know makes it better

10:58

michael would plead guilty to the charges

11:01

of partner or family member assault pfma

11:03

which is the statute in montana but

11:05

i actually have some pretty good domestic

11:08

violence laws will talk about those. More

11:10

as we go on he's ordered to

11:12

pay a fine spend a day in jail forfeit

11:15

firearms for a year and complete

11:17

forty hours of domestic violence treatment.

11:20

This was in twenty thirteen it is

11:22

likely that in twenty eleven he also

11:24

had a similar charge against him though

11:27

it's a little unclear his record is

11:29

sealed. He would have been a minor

11:31

at the time so that's probably why but pretty

11:34

good pretty good argument that this is

11:36

not the first time he did this at the

11:38

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11:41

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this is something helpful to bring up

15:27

here. So Jermaine was drawn to Michael

15:29

for a lot of reasons, as we

15:32

all are as teenage girls. But one

15:34

thing that she lacked was a stable

15:36

home. She had a

15:38

mother and a father, but I think her

15:40

father self-professed was really not in her life

15:42

because her parents were very young. They

15:44

were teen parents. I think her mom was only 15 when

15:47

she was born. She did

15:49

have grandparents and great-grandparents around who

15:51

I think served as a huge

15:53

stabilizer in her life. But

15:56

because of her family situation, she

15:58

kind of bounced around. multiple

16:00

family members homes. And this

16:02

is worth mentioning because a lot of

16:04

women who are vulnerable across the board,

16:07

whether indigenous or not, have

16:09

these kind of family situations that make them

16:11

vulnerable. She didn't really have a father in

16:13

her life. And she didn't

16:15

have really even a stable mother figure at

16:17

the time her mom had to go work,

16:19

I think was out of town sometimes, whereas

16:22

Michael had a mother and a father and

16:24

siblings who all lived under one roof. And

16:27

I think that likely

16:29

had something to do with the attraction to

16:31

him as well. It was something that she

16:33

lacked in her own life that she was

16:35

seeking to fill. In the summer of

16:38

2014, they're still together.

16:40

At this point, Germaine

16:42

is pregnant. In

16:44

fact, she's eight and a half weeks, eight

16:46

and a half months pregnant. So

16:48

she's about to have the baby. And

16:50

when you know it, Michael DeFrancis arrested

16:52

again after a fight with Germaine.

16:55

In this fight, Germaine's aunt actually intervenes

16:58

because once again, Germaine is eight and

17:00

a half months pregnant and DeFrancis throws

17:03

her onto the ground. He

17:05

is arrested, but it doesn't appear

17:07

that any charges are pressed against

17:09

him for this event. And this

17:12

is not unusual in domestic violence

17:14

situations. Usually for

17:16

every conviction in the domestic violence situation,

17:18

you're going to have multiple arrests that

17:20

never lead to charges or never lead

17:22

to convictions. A lot of times the

17:24

reason for that is fairly simple. The

17:27

victim doesn't want to testify. They don't

17:29

want the person to be charged. And

17:31

we've said this before, it's a myth.

17:33

The whole pressing charges thing is a

17:35

myth. You can prosecute someone whether the

17:37

victim wants to press charges or not.

17:39

But practically speaking, if the person

17:42

who is the subject of the attack is

17:44

not willing to testify about the attack, it's

17:46

impossible to continue with that case. You

17:49

can imagine why that is if you

17:51

don't have the person who was there

17:54

and who suffered the abuses of the

17:56

perpetrator describing and testifying under oath what

17:58

happened, what you're left with. is

18:00

likely very little evidence,

18:02

right? Usually other people are not around, but

18:04

then it becomes a he said, she

18:07

said, except she's not saying anything because

18:09

she's not testifying. And usually these abuses,

18:11

no matter how violent they are, they're

18:14

difficult to capture as evidence

18:16

in pictures. Bruises take days to

18:18

develop. You can hit someone very

18:20

hard and do immense emotional, even

18:22

physical damage, but it may not

18:24

show up in a picture. Right?

18:27

We've seen this a lot where we've heard of just, horrific

18:30

beatings and the pictures don't

18:32

quite match what we know happened to

18:34

the person because again, we'll

18:37

take some time to develop, but when you call the police,

18:39

you take the pictures right away. And

18:41

of course, by the time a case goes

18:43

to trial or goes before a jury or

18:45

a judge, those scars or those wounds likely

18:47

have already healed. So it's not like you're

18:50

showing up with a freshly beat up face

18:52

to be able to show the jury what

18:54

happened. And again, the person with the

18:56

freshly beat up face is not showing up in

18:58

these instances. And you know,

19:00

we talk about strangulation sometimes in

19:03

reference to other cases. And one

19:05

thing that's interesting about strangulation, oftentimes

19:07

you will have bruising, but

19:09

a lot of times you don't. You know, it's, and

19:11

this goes, I just go back to this, whenever you

19:13

hear a case and anybody tries

19:16

to put definitive weight on something

19:18

that you do or do not see, and

19:20

they're gonna, the whole case turns on that. One

19:23

problem with that is the body's weird

19:25

and everybody is different. You

19:27

know, all that we talked about the various rigor

19:30

mortis and liver mortis

19:32

and all that stuff. And people want to put

19:34

so much weight on that. And it's so hard

19:36

because everybody's different. Strangulation, a lot

19:38

of times you'll have pretty

19:40

severe damage internally. So

19:43

usually strangulation, if you die,

19:46

they're gonna be able to figure it out. Because even if there's

19:48

not external signs of it, you're gonna

19:50

see internal stuff, whether it's broken hyoid bones

19:52

or just all sorts of damage to the

19:54

muscles. I

19:56

bring this up because strangulation is something that often happens

19:58

in domestic. violence and

20:01

is alleged in some

20:03

of what's going on here. The

20:05

one thing I want to say about strangulation, I've said this before,

20:07

but I can't say it enough because I just want people to

20:09

know this. If

20:13

someone strangles you, the

20:16

chances they're going to kill you one day. Increase

20:20

massively. I mean, frankly, I think if

20:22

someone strangles you, your assumption should be

20:24

given a long enough timeline, they will

20:26

eventually murder you. And

20:29

we've seen that a lot.

20:31

There is incredibly strong correlation

20:33

between strangulation and domestic

20:35

partner murder. So I just

20:38

always want to say that because I know

20:41

there are people out there that are in

20:43

relationships where stuff like that's happening and just

20:46

know that that is an incredibly

20:48

dangerous situation. And as we're going

20:50

to see in this case, getting

20:52

out of those relationships is so

20:54

hard. It's like a spiderweb you're

20:56

trapped in so many ways. Just take this case.

20:58

Jermaine's in a situation where she's eight and a

21:00

half months pregnant. What is she supposed

21:02

to do? You know, she doesn't have

21:05

a lot of resources. She's got a baby that's about

21:07

to be born. She needs Michael

21:10

in her life. So I think that

21:12

probably has something to do with the fact that we don't

21:14

see these charges pressed. Anyway, that's

21:17

an aside, but I think an important one. And

21:19

that's, you know, we talk a lot about personal

21:22

crimes and strangulation is one of the most personal

21:24

ways you can kill someone. We've also said stabbing

21:26

too, because there's a level of being close to

21:28

a person and having to physically touch them. Strangulation,

21:31

oh my goodness, because when the physicality

21:33

of strangling someone is you are incredibly

21:35

close to them and you're incredibly close

21:37

to their face, which is showing all

21:39

of the pain and all of the

21:42

suffering that you are imposing on them.

21:44

And in seeing that and you continue

21:46

to do it, that

21:48

level of suspending

21:50

any care for the other person, I

21:52

think is what leads to that correlation.

21:55

Of murder in down

21:57

the road. Right. So these are these, they

21:59

study. There's statistics behind it, but when you

22:01

think about the psychology of it, there are

22:03

things there, right? Like think about a toddler

22:06

or a child who doesn't know the results

22:08

of their actions. Once they see someone react

22:10

to what they're doing, if they truly didn't

22:12

mean to hurt someone, they immediately stop. That's

22:15

the opposite in a strangulation case. Most

22:17

of the time, you're not strangling someone from the

22:19

back because your thumbs, opposable thumbs, are the strength

22:22

of your strangulation. You're going for the hyoid one,

22:24

which is right below your chin. You're

22:26

not strangling someone from the spine, from the C7.

22:29

That's plenty of protection for your neck. Of

22:31

course, you can strangle someone from the back, but

22:33

typically these types of cases, you're facing them,

22:36

looking straight into their faces, seeing the evil

22:38

you're doing to them and continuing and having

22:40

no regard for them. That

22:43

level of anger

22:46

and disregard for the other person, I think,

22:49

is you can begin to imagine why

22:51

you can see murder down the road. So

22:55

July 11th, Jermaine gives birth to the

22:57

couple's first child together. That's 2014. So

23:00

by November of 2014, Jermaine is calling

23:02

the police again. This time she's reporting

23:04

an argument between her and Michael. She

23:08

claims that Michael took her phone, dropped it

23:10

in water and broke it. The responding officer

23:12

says this is a civil issue, not a criminal

23:14

issue, and nothing further was done. Not really

23:16

right about that for a couple different reasons, not the least of

23:19

which, in a lot of states, if you

23:21

destroy someone's phone to prevent them from calling the police, to

23:23

report the fact that you're abusing them, that in

23:26

and of itself is a crime. That's

23:28

2014. The year,

23:30

another year passes. In December of 2015, Jermaine

23:34

has given birth to the couple's

23:36

second child together. So

23:38

now you're beginning to see, over the

23:40

course of just a couple of years,

23:42

seemingly prolonged abuse,

23:45

if not escalating, and even

23:47

more intertwined lives between Jermaine and

23:50

Michael because of the birth of

23:52

additional children. And you heard

23:54

earlier that Jermaine loved her children. May 15th,

23:56

2017, Jermaine makes a Facebook page. post

24:00

about DeFrancis abuse. Now the

24:02

stolen podcast reports that it

24:04

said quote people think

24:06

it's fun to be in an abusive

24:08

relationship. Well it's not. Michael

24:11

DeFrancis hurt me to the point where now

24:13

he's threatening me to be with him to make

24:15

things right or I lose my kids. My

24:17

kids are my all and my heart. This

24:20

morning because I refused a kiss and just

24:22

wanted a ride to work he decided to

24:24

leave. I gave him his things.

24:26

Yes I did push him out of the

24:28

door so I could lock it but he

24:31

had no reason to put his hands on

24:33

me. So this is a public post and

24:35

shortly after this Jermaine and

24:37

Michael broke up. But

24:40

even though they broke up you know they

24:42

they've been together what eight years they lived

24:45

down the street from each other they have

24:47

two children together those are really difficult

24:49

lives to un-intertwine from each

24:51

other. And we see that just

24:53

about two weeks later despite breaking

24:55

up or less than two weeks

24:57

from breaking up on May 30th

24:59

2017 Jermaine and Michael attend a

25:02

concert together in Bozeman Montana while

25:04

still broken up. When they were driving home that

25:06

night it was around midnight and

25:08

you might think okay maybe they're broken up

25:10

so maybe Jermaine has some leverage now Michael

25:13

will treat her better. Quite the

25:15

opposite. During that drive

25:18

Michael in his rage was

25:20

mad again at Jermaine and he

25:22

actually pushes her out of a moving car and

25:24

she's left there. He doesn't turn around he didn't

25:26

say you've learned your lesson get back in the

25:28

car. He pushes her out of a moving car

25:30

and drives off and a

25:33

police officer picked Jermaine up.

25:35

Now Michael was again charged

25:37

with partner or family member

25:39

assault in that instance. As

25:42

serious as that sounds pushing someone out of

25:45

it a moving vehicle and leaving them what

25:47

for dead for abandonment she's far from home

25:49

she's not gonna be able to walk home

25:51

from Bozeman. Despite

25:54

that the charges against Michael would

25:56

later be dismissed. Maybe it

25:58

had something to do with Jermaine not when

26:00

he charges press, we don't know. But

26:03

he was not ever prosecuted or convicted

26:05

for that charge. On July 29th, 2017,

26:08

Jermaine called the police on Michael again.

26:10

So this is what, just a couple

26:12

months after they'd broken up. And

26:15

she claimed that Michael had gotten handsy

26:17

with her and she had kicked him out.

26:20

This time, Michael took the kids with

26:22

him because he knows that would hurt

26:24

Jermaine badly. So she loved her boys.

26:27

But the police said there was no

26:29

custody order in place. And so there

26:31

was nothing they could do about it.

26:33

So that was the end of that

26:36

conversation. So already you're beginning

26:38

to see how difficult

26:40

it is for Jermaine to disentangle herself

26:42

from Michael. She loves

26:44

her children. There's no custody order in place. Law

26:46

enforcement is telling her we can't do anything about

26:48

it. But every time she essentially stands up

26:51

for herself, even though they're broken up, he

26:53

has the ultimate trump card, her

26:55

kids, he gets to take her kids

26:57

from her and their small children, they're, you

27:00

know, one in three,

27:02

they can't really have agency or

27:04

independence, you know, to walk away

27:06

from their dad, nor may they

27:08

want to. These are very difficult

27:10

situations for young children. And

27:12

so he has a leash on her,

27:15

despite them not being in a relationship. Yeah.

27:17

And look, I think there are those

27:19

of you out there who are thinking, why

27:22

doesn't she just leave him? Why does she

27:24

stay in this situation? And it's

27:26

just not that simple. It's never that simple. And

27:28

it's never that simple for all sorts of

27:30

reasons. And in this case, the added fact

27:34

of the children and his willingness to use

27:36

them as pawns in this game,

27:39

makes it even more difficult, even more difficult than it

27:41

always is. All of the various connections

27:43

that keep you with someone, even when you want to leave

27:45

them, not the least of which is

27:48

the most dangerous moment in

27:50

an abusive relationship is when

27:52

you leave. That is

27:54

when things can go from really

27:57

bad to murder. And a lot

27:59

of of women know that and they

28:01

fall into a trap where they're

28:04

trying to keep the person happy to

28:06

stay safe and the only way

28:08

to stay safe is to try and not make

28:10

the person mad and they're certainly not gonna leave.

28:12

So I understand that

28:14

feelings I really do but

28:17

I think when you think about this a little

28:19

bit deeper you start to see it's just not that simple.

28:21

So fast forward to June 15th 2018 about a year

28:25

later. Now at this point and for a while

28:27

and this sort of goes to what I was

28:29

just saying they are broken up

28:32

like they're not together as a couple in

28:34

fact Jermaine is dating someone else at this

28:36

point but they are

28:38

still involved in each other's lives

28:40

they have children together and they

28:42

still will spend time together and

28:44

on this night they're gonna

28:47

do that. So on the evening leading up

28:49

to Jermaine's disappearance Michael and

28:51

Jermaine they begin a night out together

28:53

at a bar called the Dark Horse

28:56

in Missoula Montana. The bartender

28:58

that evening remembers seeing the two of them and

29:01

on the stolen podcast you actually hear

29:03

him describe them as chatting on

29:06

the end of the bar sort of sitting

29:08

on the end of the bar chatting but

29:10

they never have any physical contact. Neither of

29:12

them appear particularly upset but he did recall

29:14

that Jermaine spent most of her time on

29:16

her phone and didn't seem all that interested

29:18

in Michael. She seemed more interested in what

29:21

was going on her phone than whatever Michael

29:23

was doing. They didn't stay at the bar

29:25

very long. Now one thing that's

29:27

interesting Jermaine and

29:29

her phone usage was a issue

29:32

for Michael. Remember one of the events that

29:34

led to calling the police was he destroyed

29:36

one of her phones and

29:38

so it was known that that was

29:40

something that would make him mad and you have

29:42

the situation where the bartender does not see him

29:44

mad but does see a situation where the two

29:46

of them are together and she is

29:48

spending more time on her phone than she is talking to

29:50

him. We have a lot of kind of points

29:53

of reference because they're seen out in public but then

29:55

all of a sudden things drop off. So the next

29:57

kind of period of time that we have is is

30:00

that night from 10 p.m. to 12 a.m. After

30:03

leaving the dark horse, Jermaine and Michael made

30:05

their way to two other bars in

30:07

Missoula, the Golden Rose and

30:10

the Badlander. Both are in the

30:12

same building, and there's security cameras

30:14

outside that actually catch Jermaine and

30:17

Michael in an alleyway behind the

30:19

Badlander. Lowell Hocklter, who

30:21

works coordinating searches for the Lighthouse

30:24

group, has seen this footage, but

30:26

it's actually under seal because

30:28

it's an ongoing investigation. So I don't think

30:30

it's available online anywhere to see. But

30:33

Lowell, who did view this footage,

30:35

noted that Jermaine appeared to be happy. She

30:37

didn't seem to be agitated in any way,

30:40

but she was very social. She was floating

30:42

easily between different groups and chatting with many

30:45

people. She seemed very sure of herself, very

30:47

confident. For example, when a group of people

30:49

would leave to go back in the bar,

30:51

she didn't stand around awkwardly by herself or

30:53

follow them. She would just move seamlessly into

30:56

another conversation group, and it seemed that she

30:58

was well-liked by everyone back there. She was

31:00

just having a good time catching up with

31:02

friends, is what it appeared. Now, this

31:04

video is video only. There's no

31:07

audio with it, so you don't get to

31:09

hear what they're saying, but no one seems

31:11

agitated. Just seems like a typical relaxed night

31:13

out with friends. Now,

31:15

Michael, on the other hand, who's also caught on

31:18

this footage, he does not

31:20

appear to have the same type

31:22

of outgoing social demeanor as Jermaine.

31:24

Rather, he appears to hang back more. I

31:27

think he's wearing a baseball cap, and he

31:29

keeps to himself, and he doesn't talk very

31:31

much. Seems like he's kind of just tagging

31:33

along where Jermaine is, and she's the one

31:36

who is there to see people. Jermaine

31:38

has her last communication with her current

31:41

boyfriend, Jacob Love, via text message at

31:43

11.52 p.m. The

31:46

two of them very recently started dating. As we

31:48

said, he was out of town. He's 200 miles

31:50

away on the evening that Jermaine

31:53

goes missing, but she was planning on

31:55

staying at his house. Which

31:57

I think is an interesting point. So she's out. with

32:00

the father of her two kids, they're hanging

32:02

out. She has no intention of

32:05

going back home with him that night. She's

32:07

fully intending to stay at Jacob's house. And

32:09

if you think about this, those of you who may

32:11

be thinking, well that's weird, if she's already dating someone,

32:13

is she serious? Or not, who knows how serious

32:15

it is. But why would she be out with an ex? Think

32:18

about it, she's only 23 years old. She's been

32:20

with this guy for basically a decade. She grew

32:22

up with him. I mean, they were

32:24

children together. They had children as essentially

32:27

children together. When you have

32:29

someone who's been in your life for basically half of

32:31

your entire life, and they still live in the street,

32:33

and you share children together, your

32:37

lives are just so intertwined, it doesn't surprise me at

32:39

all that they are still on these terms

32:41

where they can go out together.

32:43

Because he is so much a part of her

32:45

life. Kids

32:48

are no kids. I mean, he is

32:51

essentially her entire childhood. Yeah, I mean, look, you can think this

32:53

is weird if you want to, but I think Alice

32:55

is right. I think this is

32:57

just a very complicated situation. And people are complicated. They

33:00

just are. Everyone is. We

33:03

all have weird complications in our

33:05

lives, and this was a complication for her.

33:08

And once again, I think it's

33:10

important to note what

33:13

Alice said earlier. It's

33:15

not like they're out on a date, and

33:18

she's like sitting in his lap, and they're totally focused on

33:20

each other. She's being a social butterfly. He's

33:22

there, but he's just one of the people. She's

33:25

just one of the people that she's seeing

33:27

and hanging out with. We're focusing on him for

33:29

a reason, as we're about

33:31

to get to. So at around midnight,

33:33

Jermaine and Michael are caught on the

33:35

same surveillance camera walking down the alley

33:37

behind the badlander and turning the corner

33:39

out of frame. So

33:42

on the footage, it appears that both of

33:44

them are acting normally. The situation

33:46

did not seem hostile, and Jermaine

33:48

did not appear to be intoxicated.

33:51

So that's where they are around

33:53

midnight of the night and

33:55

going into the morning where Jermaine is going

33:57

to disappear. Now that's

33:59

the one. last like verifiable sighting

34:01

we have of Jermaine. Oh,

34:05

when you have these footages and you know,

34:07

someone just turns the corner and

34:09

you know what's going to happen next, which is that she's

34:11

never going to be seen again. It's

34:14

just so hard to show like what if this camera

34:16

could just follow her a little bit longer to see

34:18

where she goes. But like we

34:20

said, she didn't leave after a fight. It

34:22

wasn't a agitated situation. All night she's been

34:24

kind of walking back and forth among

34:26

people. And this is just another one of those walks

34:29

except what happens next. So

34:31

this is between 12 and 1 a.m. Michael

34:34

De France talks to the police and

34:36

he says that he dropped Jermaine off

34:39

by the Orange Street food farm in

34:41

Missoula, Montana somewhere between 12 and 1

34:43

a.m. This

34:45

is really important because later on when

34:47

there is a search for Jermaine, every news

34:50

outlet, every missing poster says she

34:53

was last seen at the Orange Street food

34:55

farm. The only reason we know

34:57

this is because of what Michael told

34:59

police. So

35:03

this is a problem because Michael changes

35:05

his story later. He reportedly

35:07

tells two different stories of where

35:10

he dropped Jermaine off that evening. So

35:13

he told her family because after, you know,

35:15

her family members couldn't get a hold of Jermaine,

35:17

they start calling around and Michael is one of

35:19

the first people they call because, well, she

35:21

was with him that night and because they are

35:23

so close because of their children and their history

35:26

that he is a natural person for them to

35:28

call. And he tells the family,

35:30

oh, I dropped her off at the Orange Street

35:32

food farm. And he

35:34

told law enforcement later on, though, a

35:37

different story than what he told the

35:39

family. He told her he

35:41

dropped Jermaine off at an intersection which

35:44

was about eight blocks from the

35:46

food farm. So not exactly close.

35:49

It should be noted that the food farm is

35:51

pretty close to where she was planning to stay

35:53

that night. So move it by eight

35:55

blocks. Not impossible to walk, but

35:58

kind of a strange distance. asked

36:00

to be dropped off if it's already 12

36:02

or 1 a.m. Law enforcement state

36:05

that they have determined Germaine was dropped off

36:07

at the intersection and not at the food

36:09

farm. They don't go into why that is.

36:11

Again, this is an open investigation but I

36:15

would imagine they probably looked at some cell

36:17

phone pings or they were able to verify,

36:20

I don't know, traffic stops, something like

36:22

that. But they looked into those two

36:24

stories and determined the more likely story

36:26

was that Germaine was actually dropped off

36:29

at the intersection. Now Michael

36:31

claims this is where Germaine wanted

36:33

to be dropped off at this intersection

36:35

and that he last saw her walking

36:37

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36:39

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36:42

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there's a couple points are they go or a fleshing

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cases but in this case it's gonna take

41:10

the police allowed. Take this seriously. gonna take.

41:13

Think. About ten days before, the officer who

41:15

has been very dedicated to uncovering what happened

41:17

in this case finally got on the case.

41:19

But up until that point there wasn't a

41:21

whole lot in the family in this lighthouse

41:24

group. The do in the search by themselves.

41:26

So of course the first thing the family

41:28

does as they call Michael the hey, have

41:30

you seen Germain he says oh yea I

41:32

dropped her off at the food place. Now

41:35

then you know two weeks later he does

41:37

a blaze. He dropped her off at this

41:39

intersection. Of think it's important when

41:41

our said the more likely thing as the

41:43

intersection think the reason for that and we

41:45

don't have specifics but. We. Know

41:48

enough about what the police know that I think. It

41:50

is the cell phones, the cellphones or near

41:53

the intersection but there were never near the

41:55

food market. Now we would make sense for

41:57

him to drop her off at the food.

42:00

Organ a the food for him because Allah

42:02

said and our understanding This is close to

42:04

where she was going so it makes sense

42:06

for her to ask to be dropped off

42:08

their but it doesn't seem like she was.

42:10

And. All. Though

42:13

in isolation if for the very beginning,

42:15

he had told the story of the

42:17

intersection. It. Makes sense to some

42:19

extent because as I said she was always planning

42:21

on staying somewhere else. He was always going to

42:23

drop her off somewhere so it makes sense for

42:26

her him to have done it. But

42:28

not there. And it certainly

42:30

does. It make sense for him to

42:32

have changed the story. Now look, It's.

42:36

Possible he just. You. Know.

42:38

Remembered. Later, something he didn't remember

42:40

the day after. That's. Not

42:42

normally how memory works. And wanting to

42:45

now sell. I'll think that this particular

42:47

area is is their neighborhood right? Like

42:49

I don't think Michael knows the scary

42:51

of a wealth of Y Se the

42:53

Audience street food farm for that's we

42:55

specific. it's something to come up with

42:57

by the way. Wow just as I

43:00

have no inside knowledge of the investigative

43:02

file yes but if he were talking

43:04

to me or I'm hearing this after

43:06

the fat as the investigator as the

43:08

question as the first thing that popped

43:10

in my mind is o sea told

43:12

him to drop her off. At that the

43:14

farm. That's why it's in his mind because the first

43:17

thing he says his health. I did what she told

43:19

me to do. The. Food Fine. that's

43:21

why doctor us. Otherwise, it would

43:23

be a little confusing why you

43:25

would insert an area that under

43:27

any investigation would probably rule out

43:29

that you actually did that. So.

43:32

I get I have no inside knowledge on that, but that

43:34

would be my sense. If I were listening

43:36

to him till two different stories as

43:38

someone told you to drop them off

43:40

at the food while it was probably

43:42

German. Several. to

43:44

am to ten am we have

43:47

cell phone records from for rise

43:49

and that show cell tower pings

43:52

that put germain cell phone about

43:54

three point six miles north north

43:56

east of the if voros cell

43:59

phone tower in this

44:01

eight-hour period. This will

44:03

probably surprise no one is

44:05

very close to Michael DeFrancis'

44:08

home. What also will probably

44:10

surprise no one is they also

44:12

pulled Michael DeFrancis' cell phone records

44:14

and his tower pings and when

44:16

you know it his cell phone

44:18

is in very close proximity to

44:21

Jermaine's cell phone. Now

44:23

Michael at some point is going to

44:25

have to tell the police that he

44:27

did in fact have Jermaine's cell phone

44:29

that evening after she left his vehicle.

44:31

Presumably his cover story here is she

44:34

left it in the car. So

44:36

you know he did what any normal

44:39

person would do if a friend

44:41

of theirs left a cell phone in

44:43

their car. He destroyed it and

44:46

disposed of it and police have

44:48

never been able to recover the phone. Brett

44:51

if you left your phone in my car and

44:53

let's say my fat bottom sat on it

44:55

and I accidentally broke it even

44:58

if I broke it I would bring it back to you

45:00

and be like dang it I'm so sorry

45:02

I sat on your phone and I broke it because

45:04

I know you have pictures on it. I know you

45:06

have contacts on it. I know that even if it's

45:08

broken there's probably a SIM card in there and you

45:10

could probably put that card into another phone and recover

45:12

all of your data. I would

45:15

not throw away your broken cell phone.

45:18

No that seems like a little bit of a

45:20

red flag there for Michael that he not only

45:22

had the phone but he

45:24

destroyed it and and when

45:26

exactly did that happen? You know when

45:28

when did he so you know imagine

45:31

his story presumably is they left on

45:33

good terms. He

45:35

dropped her off after a nice night out with

45:37

the mother of his children she walked off into

45:39

the darkness. He finds her cell

45:41

phone at some point either that night or

45:44

the next day he hears

45:46

from the family the next day asking where she is. At

45:48

what point did he decide you know what I need to

45:50

do with his cell phone? Not turn over to the police.

45:52

Not give it to the family. I'm going to destroy it

45:55

and get rid of it. Does this sound familiar by

45:57

any chance? Maybe from another police report when he broke

45:59

her cell phone. cell phone on

46:01

purpose, likely from a

46:03

heated discussion or a fight, and

46:05

he dropped it in the water. I mean, just

46:07

sounds like this seems to be a thing he does

46:10

specifically to Jermaine. Right. So

46:12

June 17th, Jermaine's grandmother cannot get

46:15

in contact with her and

46:17

she reaches out first to

46:19

Jermaine's boyfriend, Jacob, and he

46:21

confirms that he hasn't had any contact with her

46:23

either. Now, given this

46:25

was very unlike Jermaine, her grandmother

46:27

reports her missing to tribal police

46:29

on June 17th. No,

46:32

this is sort of a multi-jurisdictional issue, right?

46:35

You have the tribal police, she lives on

46:37

tribal land, but she didn't disappear on

46:40

tribal land. She disappeared in Missoula.

46:42

So the next day, June 18th,

46:44

Jermaine's family files missing person reports

46:47

for Jermaine with the Missoula

46:49

city police. But like

46:52

everything else, the report is not actually

46:54

filed until June 20th, which

46:56

is four days after Jermaine

46:58

had last been seen. So Jermaine's

47:01

grandmother does the right thing, right? I mean, she, she

47:03

has a gut feeling. She talks to Jermaine all the

47:05

time. They're very close and

47:07

she doesn't hear from her. So she immediately

47:09

reports her missing. We

47:12

talked about these multi-jurisdictional issues before

47:14

and look, this is

47:16

like the ultimate administrative

47:18

red tape. It doesn't mean any of

47:20

these jurisdictions can't and oftentimes in these

47:22

cases, they do work together, which

47:24

is wonderful. But administratively there's

47:27

like file openings and file closings. And

47:29

sometimes if you have the wrong person,

47:31

they don't know how to open a

47:33

file if it's not in their jurisdiction.

47:35

And so it's quite literally red tape

47:37

that prevents a lot of these files

47:39

from being opened. And when you have

47:41

reservation lands, which are their own jurisdiction,

47:43

apart from federal or state localities,

47:45

it gets very hairy, especially

47:47

when you are going to bars that

47:50

are outside of your reservation, you often go off

47:52

your reservation to go do many

47:54

things as Jermaine did that night.

47:56

And because of that, that's

47:58

part of what causes the delay. and her

48:00

actually being reported. So

48:03

because they're not getting much help from police,

48:05

on June 22nd, 2018, Jermaine's

48:07

mother, Jennifer, contacted the Lifeguard

48:09

Group, which is a group

48:11

working to end human trafficking. And you

48:13

may be thinking, whoa, human trafficking, what

48:15

are we talking about? All

48:18

we know is Jermaine disappeared. Human trafficking is

48:20

a real problem, especially for indigenous

48:22

women, for any vulnerable woman. And Jermaine was

48:25

young, she was 23 years old, she

48:28

was beautiful. She can

48:30

imagine that she could very well

48:32

be the target of

48:35

a pimp who thinks they can make a lot

48:37

of money off of her. This

48:39

happens way more than you'd like to

48:41

think. Unfortunately, both Brett and I have

48:44

investigated and prosecuted a number

48:46

of these cases. Oftentimes, these

48:48

women can be the gamut, right? They can

48:50

be young runaways. I would

48:52

not call a 12 or 13 year old

48:54

runaway who has no other options consenting, but

48:57

it's difficult when you're in those situations, they're

48:59

vulnerable, they're picked up by an older pimp who

49:01

says, I'm gonna give you all the food and

49:03

all the shelter and even money and

49:06

dress you up real nice. You have nothing else

49:08

in the world because you just ran away from

49:10

even tougher situations. You're gonna

49:12

say yes, but is that consenting? No, that's

49:15

human trafficking, especially because then you become indebted

49:17

to that pimp until you stop

49:19

making him money and then he throws you out or

49:21

kills you. Second,

49:23

women who are just kidnapped, snatched

49:25

off the streets. Your mothers

49:28

may have scared you when you were younger,

49:30

that does happen. It doesn't quite

49:32

happen like so much as you may think like

49:34

a white van rolls by and they open a

49:36

sliding door and they just grab a girl off

49:38

the street, that can happen. But

49:40

oftentimes, they are canvassing a particular

49:42

area, probably a low income area

49:45

and they know and see the

49:47

types of women who are unattached, like

49:50

they're independent, maybe they don't have stable families who

49:52

would know that they're missing, that they may have

49:54

people around them who want to do them harm.

49:57

Oftentimes, these women are sold into human trafficking.

50:00

five loved ones, family members,

50:03

boyfriends, whatever, it

50:05

happens. And so when you have

50:07

something like this happen, even

50:10

though we don't know for a fact that human

50:12

trafficking may be something that happened to Jermaine, it

50:14

is absolutely statistically a possibility,

50:17

which is why they reach out to the life guard

50:19

group. And so six

50:22

days after Jermaine disappeared, this volunteer

50:24

group canvassed the area of downtown

50:26

Missoula, and you're

50:28

not going to be surprised that after

50:30

nearly a week, there's no signs of

50:33

Jermaine found. They asked people

50:35

if they seen her. Jermaine is known in

50:37

the area. She's very social. She's well liked.

50:39

People remember generally seeing her, but

50:41

you're talking six whole days later. There's

50:43

very little usable information that people have

50:45

at that point. So in June

50:48

27th, which is 10 days after Jermaine

50:51

is initially reported missing, the

50:53

Missoula County Sheriff's department applies for a

50:55

search warrant for the deference home, her

50:57

personal property belonging to Jermaine, including her

51:00

cell phone, so they're starting to work

51:02

this case. Now we know

51:04

about these search warrants because the county for

51:06

whatever reason did not seal them. Oftentimes

51:09

search warrants are sealed. The city is

51:11

also investigating Jermaine's disappearance and in fact

51:13

has the lead on the case. We

51:15

know they issued search warrants, but we

51:17

don't actually know what they say because

51:20

they are not sealed. But we do know in

51:23

this case that no items were seized during the

51:25

search that there were photos taken.

51:27

As we said, one of

51:29

the reasons the cell phone wasn't seized is because

51:31

by this point it had been destroyed and disposed

51:34

of. It's unfortunate

51:36

that it took 10 days. Maybe if it had taken

51:38

less time, the phone wouldn't

51:40

have been destroyed, but that's where we're

51:42

at. So this investigation begins to run

51:45

long. We've already lost

51:47

a lot of time. We're going to lose more. July

51:49

13th, 2018. So

51:52

nearly a month later, the county is

51:54

applying for a search warrant for Jermaine's

51:56

EBT records in order to look at

51:58

her financial activity. Once

52:00

again, would have been nice if they had

52:02

done that a little bit earlier, but I know they

52:05

don't have a ton of resources

52:07

and they're quickly running out of

52:09

leads to the extent they even had any

52:12

other than the big one, Michael

52:14

DeFranz. And I'll say they didn't stop

52:16

there. The Missoula County Sheriff's Department applies for

52:18

yet another search warrant on August 1, And

52:22

this one is related to Michael

52:24

DeFranz. This warrant is for his

52:27

location history, his browsing history, search

52:29

history from Google, which Google does

52:31

provide. And this is when

52:33

it's determined that Jermaine and Michael's phones

52:35

were in close proximity to each other

52:37

between 2 and 10 a.m. the day

52:39

that Jermaine disappeared. So what is that? Two

52:43

months later is when we're figuring out

52:45

that their phones are together

52:47

during the times that no one sees

52:49

her ever again. So the

52:51

next day on August 2, 2018,

52:54

one day later, the Sheriff's Department applies

52:56

for another search warrant this time

52:58

to search for the DeFranz's family

53:00

property a second time. I'll

53:03

say they are moving quickly. As soon as they find out this

53:05

information, they're applying for the second search warrant. In

53:08

the warrant, they ask for a

53:10

10-day surveillance of the DeFranz property,

53:13

including infrared photography and drones. And

53:16

the department wants to capture

53:18

evidence of hidden buildings, bunkers,

53:20

storage areas and other areas

53:22

of concealment. What you're hearing

53:24

here is maybe a hostage situation,

53:26

right? They're trying to use

53:28

all of these seemingly very high-tech devices

53:31

to see if there's any underground bunkers

53:33

that she's being held. Their investigation is

53:35

leading them to this particular

53:37

search warrant. We said that there has to be

53:39

probable cause to support why you want to search for these

53:41

things. But as you can

53:43

probably tell, this is a pretty big search.

53:46

It's not one day. It's 10 days. It's

53:48

using infrared photography, drones. That

53:51

costs a lot of money. And it's not clear if

53:53

this surveillance, even though the warrant

53:55

was granted, it's not clear if

53:57

the surveillance ever actually occurred. Because

54:00

of how involved that is, this particular

54:02

search is, they don't have to document

54:05

what they have or have not done

54:07

back to the court. You have

54:09

to fill out what you take, but

54:12

we don't know if this surveillance happened as

54:14

they described it to get permission for. That's

54:17

a really important thing to note, by the

54:19

way. The warrant just asks permission to do

54:21

something. Then what you do with the warrant,

54:23

that's kind of like your ticket to

54:25

what you're able to do, but you

54:27

have to stay within the parameters of what you've been given

54:30

permission to do. But it's not an order for

54:32

you to have to execute everything that you've

54:34

listed out for permission in that warrant.

54:38

So on the previous three warrants, unlawful

54:41

restraint was listed as the reason for

54:43

the warrant. So the reason

54:45

was they thought that Jermaine was being

54:47

unlawfully restrained by Michael. But

54:50

in this particular warrant for the search

54:52

of the property, it

54:55

now changes from unlawful restraint to

54:58

deliberate homicide as the reason for

55:00

the warrant. So

55:02

whether it was just the cell phone

55:04

information that led them to change their

55:06

reason from that she's being

55:08

held hostage to this is a

55:10

homicide investigation, we don't know.

55:12

They haven't spoken about that,

55:15

but that change is stark

55:17

within the warrant. So by October 2018,

55:20

now the FBI is involved in the

55:22

defense property, the searched with

55:25

FBI cadaver dogs. Now there

55:27

were some logistical financial issues

55:30

that prevented this search from being

55:32

complete until October. And that was four months

55:34

after Jermaine's disappearance. The good thing is cadaver

55:36

dogs are pretty good. I think even after

55:38

four months, if there was a body there

55:40

or had been a body there, they're

55:43

pretty good at finding them. The property was searched

55:45

for two days. Blood was found

55:47

on two items. These items were

55:49

sent to the crime lab to

55:52

determine if the blood was Jermaine's.

55:54

Unfortunately, the results were inconclusive. So

55:58

that's the last sort of significant case. event

56:00

in the investigation into Jermaine's

56:02

disappearance. The case has sort

56:05

of hit a dead end,

56:08

but it's not the last interaction

56:10

with Michael DeFrance and the police.

56:13

On July 28th, 2021, he

56:15

was indicted for possession of

56:17

firearms. He had been convicted

56:20

in 2013, as we said earlier, of a

56:22

violent crime when he assaulted Jermaine. That was

56:24

when she was 17. He may remember

56:26

that. Because of that under

56:28

federal law, he is not allowed to

56:30

have a firearm. He had four of

56:33

them. So he was

56:35

indicted for that. He pled not guilty as

56:38

everyone always does. He

56:40

was released under strict conditions. He

56:45

attempted to challenge this. This is actually,

56:47

there's been a lot of challenges to

56:49

this particular federal statute. So

56:51

he launched some constitutional challenges here. And it

56:54

was reported on the stolen podcast that the

56:56

two dates that Michael was said to possess

56:58

firearms were the dates of the searches of

57:00

the property. So basically they searched the property.

57:03

They didn't find Jermaine, but they found firearms

57:05

and he can't have firearms. So

57:08

this is all getting tied together, right? Basically

57:10

they searched his property, found the firearms,

57:12

found him in possession. And their time

57:15

is back to the domestic abuse charge

57:18

against Jermaine. About eight years earlier,

57:20

these cases take a very long

57:22

time. Nearly two years later on

57:25

April 27th, 2023, the France was found guilty on four firearm

57:29

violations, including being a prohibited person in

57:31

possession of a firearm and three counts

57:33

of false statements during a firearms transaction.

57:35

That's pretty typical. What that basically means

57:38

is he was a person who was

57:40

not allowed to have guns. He

57:42

lied about being able to possess guns because

57:44

when you fill out the forms to buy

57:46

a firearm, you have to say, are you

57:48

a convicted felon? And he likely said, I

57:50

am not, but he really was. That's why

57:52

you have the false statements in connection

57:54

with the firearm transaction. So

57:57

those, these charges are not

57:59

directly. related to Germaine's case, the

58:01

nature of Germaine and Michael's relationship

58:03

was obviously central to this trial

58:06

and these charges. The basis of

58:08

the defense's argument was that de

58:10

France should have never been charged

58:12

with PFMA as his and Germaine's

58:15

relationship didn't reach the legal definition

58:18

of spouse, right? Because they were not

58:20

spouses. More in a situation similar to

58:23

that of spouses. I

58:25

call BS. They

58:28

were living together. They were in

58:30

a romantic relationship. At

58:33

this point, they had not had a child yet. But

58:35

if you wanted proof of a romantic relationship

58:37

in the following two years, they had two

58:39

children. So the defense was saying it was

58:42

a technicality, right? They're arguing that that

58:44

first conviction was not valid and you

58:46

need that first conviction to

58:49

have the secondary conviction because the secondary

58:51

conviction completely relies on the fact that

58:53

you're a felon in possession of a

58:55

firearm. If you're not a felon,

58:57

you're a person who can have a firearm. And

58:59

so they're saying that first conviction never should have

59:02

been charged with it because Germaine was not his

59:04

wife. They were not legally married. They were not

59:06

under the definition of a family member. Obviously

59:09

that statute is supposed to capture

59:12

domestic relationships. And

59:16

in this instance, the defense, I mean it's a

59:18

creative argument, I will say. It's

59:20

a little bit of a step

59:22

too far, I would say. I'm not sure I could make that argument.

59:25

I don't know if I were a defense counsel there,

59:27

but it did not win the

59:29

day. But because central

59:32

to this trial was that

59:34

particular relationship because they're contesting

59:37

that the relationship falls under

59:39

the category of this

59:41

domestic violence statute, they

59:44

discuss Germaine and Michael's relationship

59:46

in depth, including the 2013

59:49

assault. And

59:52

it's devastating. I mean it's clear

59:54

that their lives are intertwined

59:57

and that they are in fact in a romantic relationship.

1:00:00

Now, even though De France was

1:00:03

convicted of all four firearm violations and

1:00:05

he was looking at 10 years in

1:00:07

prison for these convictions, he

1:00:09

received just 21 months in prison. Which

1:00:12

is embarrassing. That judge should be embarrassed.

1:00:15

The prosecutors were obviously asking for more than

1:00:17

that. He should have gotten more than that.

1:00:19

There are so many reasons he should have gotten more than

1:00:21

that. But the

1:00:24

judges have the discretion at the end of the day

1:00:26

and he got, what is that,

1:00:28

a year and nine months. So

1:00:32

that's the justice system for you sometimes. And

1:00:35

it's unfortunate he's going to spend a little time in

1:00:37

prison but not a whole lot of time in prison.

1:00:40

And remember, he hasn't spent really any time

1:00:42

in prison, he spent what, one day in

1:00:44

prison for that domestic violence assault

1:00:46

and the other ones all got dismissed.

1:00:49

So in some ways when you see

1:00:51

these types of charges, it's not about

1:00:53

the gun. It's not about him possessing

1:00:56

a gun at all. It's about

1:00:58

everything that preceded it. This

1:01:00

is essentially Germaine's trial that she never

1:01:02

got to have. Yeah. And

1:01:05

one of the things that good judges will often take into

1:01:07

account is the fact that you've done all these things in

1:01:09

the past and never been punished for them. You spent a

1:01:11

day in jail after you did

1:01:13

all this stuff. You were never charged for throwing

1:01:15

her out of a car. We talked about this

1:01:18

some in a recent legal brief. The

1:01:20

judges can consider that kind of stuff. They don't

1:01:22

just have to consider what you're convicted of. They

1:01:24

can consider everything. And this should

1:01:26

have been a case where, I mean,

1:01:29

the thing is felon possession

1:01:31

of a firearm is a 10, he's not

1:01:33

a felon, but in this case, prohibited person,

1:01:36

you can get 10 years for it and get 15 years for it now.

1:01:39

And judges are supposed

1:01:41

to determine when should

1:01:43

you get closer to 10 versus closer

1:01:46

to probation. This guy should have got a lot

1:01:48

more. He should have got a lot more. And

1:01:50

it's unfortunate that he did not. I don't

1:01:52

know if some of these arguments in trial,

1:01:55

even though the state or

1:01:57

the government won those arguments, if the judge took that

1:01:59

into account. into account at sentencing and thought,

1:02:01

well, it was close. It was

1:02:03

close that you should even be convicted. So I'm not going to give

1:02:05

you as much time, but it

1:02:08

is what it is. So that's how

1:02:10

long he'll be in prison about

1:02:13

ish. You know, there's interesting

1:02:15

sort of little legal things that we've mentioned

1:02:17

throughout the different ceiling of the indictment, the

1:02:19

challenges that Michael attempted to raise, you know,

1:02:22

one challenge he attempted to raise, which I

1:02:24

see all the time is

1:02:26

it was actually legal for him to possess a

1:02:28

firearm in Montana, but

1:02:31

it was not legal for him to possess a firearm

1:02:33

under federal law and you often

1:02:35

see defendants trying to use that as

1:02:37

a reason. But if fortunately

1:02:39

the constitution is Supreme federal law

1:02:41

is Supreme. So if it's illegal

1:02:43

for you to do it federally,

1:02:46

you won't go to state prison, but you still

1:02:48

got a federal prison. So that's where he's at. And

1:02:51

the good news is he's now been convicted

1:02:53

of this. So he is a felon going

1:02:55

forward. And hopefully if he's ever caught with

1:02:58

a firearm again, they'll they'll give

1:03:00

him a little bit more time. Okay. So

1:03:02

that's the case. That's

1:03:05

the evidence. It's not a

1:03:07

lot. I know you're hoping for more. It's

1:03:10

one of the reasons we wanted to do this, but now we're going

1:03:12

to move into. Theories,

1:03:15

as I said earlier, there

1:03:18

is a detective guy, Baker. He is a detective

1:03:20

for the city of Missoula. He is passionate about

1:03:22

this case. He wants to solve this case. He's

1:03:25

been working on this case since 2018. And

1:03:28

he says, he will tell you, this is not a

1:03:30

cold case working it. Want

1:03:32

to get to the bottom of this. And he's essentially

1:03:34

said there are three theories of

1:03:36

what he thinks could have happened and

1:03:38

we are going to talk about those

1:03:41

theories. I'll just go ahead

1:03:43

and say one theory that no one

1:03:45

thing's happened is that she left

1:03:47

voluntarily. I know that's always something that comes up.

1:03:49

Maybe she decided to go off and start her

1:03:51

new life. No one thinks she

1:03:53

ever would have left her kids. As you

1:03:55

heard from her Facebook post, that was not something

1:03:57

she was willing to do. Hey

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1:06:00

There was no mass amounts of

1:06:02

the cash been withdrawn in. Anticipation.

1:06:05

Of running away. There were no bags packed.

1:06:08

There was a me. She was in constant

1:06:10

communication with her new boyfriend that night. You

1:06:12

know how you wouldn't cost of communication with

1:06:14

her family members who heard from her earlier

1:06:17

that night. She was about to start a

1:06:19

new training program. i think of the fire

1:06:21

department. That Monday she had things she was

1:06:23

looking forward to as she. Made plans

1:06:26

to attend and if she

1:06:28

word have disappeared. She. Didn't have

1:06:30

the means along with her she never car she didn't

1:06:32

have close other than what she was wearing student have

1:06:34

credit. Card or cash on her video

1:06:36

and like and some of these cases

1:06:38

you mention that. The. Firefighter thing.

1:06:42

And. She. Was starting

1:06:44

their training. Her grandmother actually

1:06:46

went on a true. In. Assets

1:06:48

Germane to go Whether. The.

1:06:50

Edge of A was like I'm starting this

1:06:53

new training in it or my grandmother's like

1:06:55

we the you don't have to do it

1:06:57

on Monday you can come with me and

1:06:59

you can doodle of it later. But she

1:07:01

was committed to answer. She stayed so obviously

1:07:03

like in some way these cases her grandmother

1:07:05

nail sort of things if she had just

1:07:07

come with me. Things. That

1:07:10

of indifference less as an added level of

1:07:12

tragedy for the get. Okay so the

1:07:14

first theory I think is one that probably

1:07:16

is obvious detective basis. First the the is

1:07:18

that a person he was laughing The Germain

1:07:20

is connected to her disappearance. That's not rocket

1:07:23

science. If you're the last person seen with

1:07:25

somebody disappeared, you're gonna be at the top

1:07:27

of the suspect list until your ruled out

1:07:29

We of course now the last person she

1:07:31

was seen with with Michael de France. He

1:07:33

says it himself now. The. Slant seems

1:07:36

to be the subject of a lot

1:07:38

of investigation as you can tell with

1:07:40

all of these sets once. he starts

1:07:42

with fire and violations stemming from the

1:07:44

investigation, but there were other suspects who

1:07:46

were investigated as well. Now there are

1:07:48

several reasons why to France is a

1:07:50

top suspect here, right? Will kind of

1:07:52

go see them really quickly hear that

1:07:54

you've already heard. germain and

1:07:56

michael had a tumultuous relationship

1:07:59

with documented abuse, where law enforcement

1:08:01

was called, not just by Germaine, but also

1:08:03

by family members and third parties who witnessed

1:08:05

what was going on. In fact, third parties,

1:08:07

her aunt tried to intervene on her behalf

1:08:09

when things got so violent. We

1:08:13

know that Michael was with Germaine on the

1:08:15

night of her disappearance, was the last person

1:08:17

to see her. Self-proclaimed said

1:08:19

he was the last person to see

1:08:22

her, dropped her off at her last

1:08:24

known quote unquote location. DeFrancis' story

1:08:26

about where he dropped off Germaine, shifts,

1:08:29

changes. That

1:08:32

may not mean he's lying, could be bad

1:08:34

memory, but whenever you are shifting stories on

1:08:36

a key fact, the most important fact about

1:08:38

a missing person, the last place they were

1:08:41

seen, that will

1:08:43

draw a lot of suspicion to you. So

1:08:45

remember what those differing accounts

1:08:47

were. He claims to have dropped Germaine off

1:08:50

between 12 and 1am, yet her

1:08:52

phone pinged in the area of his

1:08:54

home from the time of 2

1:08:56

to 10am. And Michael explained

1:08:58

this by saying that he broke her phone and

1:09:00

then disposed of it. Also

1:09:02

a strange story. Also where

1:09:04

are the broken pieces?

1:09:06

Police have never found them. Family

1:09:09

and friends of Germaine's claim that DeFrancis

1:09:11

really wanted to get back together with

1:09:14

Germaine. Even one

1:09:16

of Michael's ex-girlfriends claimed that he

1:09:18

was obsessed with Germaine and cited

1:09:20

that as the reason for their

1:09:22

breakup. And shortly before

1:09:24

Germaine disappeared, we know that she has

1:09:26

started a brand new relationship. This

1:09:29

could have angered DeFrancis. If we're

1:09:31

talking about motive, new

1:09:33

relationship might be getting really

1:09:35

serious. If she's even going to stay over

1:09:38

at his apartment when he's not there, you

1:09:40

can see the level of familiarity is one

1:09:42

that Germaine clearly had with

1:09:44

Michael at one point when they lived together

1:09:46

but no longer. And

1:09:49

it is worth noting though that

1:09:51

obviously Michael's been asked about the fact of

1:09:54

the fact and he claims now that he

1:09:56

never wanted to get back together with Germaine.

1:10:00

Or has not been charged with anything

1:10:02

specifically related to Germain's. Disappearance.

1:10:04

But. Of course we've talked about this for fire

1:10:07

on violations as stem from the search warrant. In.

1:10:09

Germain investigation. The.

1:10:12

Second theory we have mentioned. Human.

1:10:15

Trafficking. Though. The

1:10:17

police have looked into several trafficking

1:10:19

theories basically early on in the

1:10:21

investigation and they did receive multiple

1:10:24

tips. The Germain may have been

1:10:26

a victim of human trafficking. But

1:10:29

the police have not been able

1:10:31

to find anything conclusively linking Germane

1:10:33

to any of these trafficking rings

1:10:35

working in the area. Know.

1:10:38

They haven't been able to rule out

1:10:40

the theory definitively either, and we know

1:10:42

that human trafficking in Montana has boomed

1:10:44

concurrently with the growth in the oil

1:10:46

and gas industry that they've seen. Their

1:10:48

you have a lot of people, thousands

1:10:51

of workers who were coming to Montana

1:10:53

leaving their families behind. If they have

1:10:55

them, a lot of them are single.

1:10:57

They're coming to temporarily work on these

1:10:59

pipeline projects. On the oil and gas

1:11:01

industry. They stay in these little boom

1:11:04

tales, a kind of pop up around

1:11:06

wherever the pipelines are being. Built. And

1:11:09

then they leave. And this has led

1:11:11

to a massive increase above violent crime,

1:11:13

sexual assaults, A and sex

1:11:15

trafficking. And. You've seen increases as

1:11:18

great as seventy five percent. In.

1:11:20

Some areas. Interstate. Ninety

1:11:22

which many women are trafficked a

1:11:24

runs directly through Missoula. were Germain

1:11:26

we're missing from. So look, it

1:11:29

is not impossible that she was

1:11:31

a victim of human trafficking. The

1:11:33

one thing I'll say about this

1:11:35

is she obviously had some vulnerabilities.

1:11:38

She. Was not as vulnerable

1:11:40

as someone he would typically

1:11:42

see. who is traffic

1:11:45

she's not as young as a

1:11:47

lot of trafficking victims she doesn't

1:11:49

appear to have any serious substance

1:11:52

abuse problems which can often lead

1:11:54

to human trafficking so actually don't

1:11:57

think she's a good candidate for

1:11:59

it But given everything else that's going

1:12:01

on, I don't think you can rule it

1:12:03

out. Also, that's a really good point. Obviously, anyone

1:12:06

can be the victim of sexual

1:12:08

violence, but she also is not

1:12:10

the personality profile that sex traffickers

1:12:12

will typically go after. She's confident.

1:12:14

She looks you in the eye.

1:12:16

She's social. She talks to a

1:12:18

lot of people. Honestly, oftentimes they

1:12:20

prefer girls, young girls who are

1:12:22

unsure of themselves, don't know where

1:12:24

to turn to for help. And

1:12:26

so they feel helpless trapped in

1:12:28

a hotel room, having to turn

1:12:30

tricks to make their pimps money.

1:12:32

And she, as we see from

1:12:35

two hours of footage behind the Badlander is

1:12:37

very confident. She has plenty of friends that she

1:12:39

can talk to. She knows where to turn to

1:12:43

talk, right? That is

1:12:45

unattractive to a sex trafficker. They

1:12:47

do not want anyone who is going to

1:12:49

talk, anyone who has ties to the community

1:12:51

because people will come looking for them. Again,

1:12:55

does not rule out sex trafficking, but I

1:12:57

would say her profile does not fit the

1:12:59

typical, let's just pick the scroll off of

1:13:01

the street. So the third theory for Detective

1:13:03

Baker was that he actually received a tip

1:13:06

that a woman was killed on the reservation

1:13:08

during a drug deal gone wrong. Unfortunately,

1:13:11

this is also not uncommon.

1:13:15

I very much believe that a woman was

1:13:17

killed during a drug deal on the reservation,

1:13:19

probably not just one woman, and there probably

1:13:22

were multiple drug deals. He did investigate this

1:13:24

lead, though, but he was not able to

1:13:26

confirm that this particular tip and this event

1:13:29

even occurred at all. Nevermind that

1:13:31

it was Jermaine. Additionally, early

1:13:33

into the investigation, Detective Baker

1:13:35

shared that there were non-residents

1:13:37

on the reservation drug trafficking,

1:13:40

but he interviewed these individuals and there was just

1:13:43

nothing linking them to Jermaine. It wasn't obvious

1:13:45

that Jermaine was a user, that she bought

1:13:47

from them, that she was friendly

1:13:49

with them, even knew them. So while

1:13:51

there may be this illegal drug trafficking

1:13:54

crime happening on the reservation, unfortunately,

1:13:56

reservations are going to be ripe

1:13:59

with crimes. There's just

1:14:01

nothing tying Germaine to that particular

1:14:03

criminal activity where she could be

1:14:05

wrapped up into some sort of

1:14:07

drug-related death, homicide crime.

1:14:09

Now, there were several other leads

1:14:11

involving drug trafficking throughout the investigation,

1:14:14

but no charges have been made

1:14:16

related to Germaine's disappearance. And

1:14:18

nothing has been found to link Germaine to

1:14:21

drug trafficking in any way. I

1:14:23

think it's really important that night. She spent most of her

1:14:25

time outside of the bar, not even with a drink, right?

1:14:28

When she walks away, it doesn't appear she's impaired.

1:14:31

We don't know because there was no audio. We

1:14:34

obviously don't have her body. We don't have any

1:14:36

sort of drug tox test. We don't know if

1:14:38

she had anything in her system. But she wasn't

1:14:40

reported by her family or friends as

1:14:43

being someone who used drugs, who

1:14:45

consorted with these drug trafficking

1:14:47

organizations. Unfortunately, this is just

1:14:50

a situation where we

1:14:52

know these reservations have

1:14:54

sex trafficking on them and have drug trafficking on

1:14:56

them. But based

1:14:58

on the information we know so far,

1:15:00

there's been no links tied to those

1:15:03

criminal activities with the disappearance of Germaine.

1:15:05

And look, is it possible that

1:15:08

Germaine got out of Michael's

1:15:10

car that night? Maybe

1:15:13

they had an argument. So she

1:15:15

got out quickly at the intersection, didn't make it

1:15:17

all the way to the food farm. They had

1:15:19

a little spat. She

1:15:22

gets out of the car. He drives off

1:15:24

in a huff. She leaves her phone in

1:15:26

his car. He destroys the phone. Then

1:15:30

as she's walking, she just happens to

1:15:32

run into some sort of predator, serial

1:15:34

killer. Somebody just

1:15:36

decides to take her and murder her. Is

1:15:38

that possible? I mean, of course it's possible.

1:15:41

That would be quite the coincidence and all that stuff coming

1:15:43

together. But it's possible.

1:15:47

I don't think it's likely. I think the

1:15:49

most likely answer here is that Michael has something

1:15:51

to do with what happened. And I

1:15:53

think the fact that he

1:15:55

not only had her phone, but it was

1:15:57

in close proximity to his phone until 10

1:15:59

o'clock. clock when it stops transmitting,

1:16:03

you know, when he destroyed it, I guess, or it

1:16:05

turned off and then threw it

1:16:07

away. And mysteriously has never been found. I

1:16:11

think that that is a huge red flag. Could

1:16:13

you indict him? No. Is

1:16:15

that enough? No. Is it enough

1:16:18

to investigate him very seriously? Absolutely.

1:16:21

But we have to have something else there.

1:16:24

How, and I believe there's somebody out

1:16:26

there who has some information. There's somebody

1:16:28

he's taught to about this. There's somebody

1:16:30

who saw something. There's somebody who knows

1:16:32

something and that person needs

1:16:35

to come forward. This case can

1:16:37

and should be solved. There's no

1:16:39

way that we should still

1:16:42

be wondering what happened to this

1:16:44

woman six years after she

1:16:46

disappeared. This case should be solved

1:16:48

and it will be solved if we ever

1:16:51

knows the right information will come

1:16:53

forward to the police. And here's the thing.

1:16:55

Likely someone does know something because where did

1:16:57

the two phones ping near his house? He

1:16:59

didn't live by himself. He

1:17:01

lived with other people, family

1:17:04

members, and he lived in

1:17:06

close proximity to people that the two of them

1:17:08

had grown up with, close friends,

1:17:11

close neighbors, people who were

1:17:13

intertwined in their lives. Now it's the middle of

1:17:15

the night somewhere between two and 10 AM. But

1:17:18

when that phone stops pinging at 10 AM, I think

1:17:21

it's over at that point. That's

1:17:23

an afterthought. Something bad happened

1:17:25

before that point. Now we're

1:17:27

just disposing of evidence. But

1:17:31

if you heard or saw

1:17:34

anything between the hours of 12 and

1:17:37

10 AM that morning, come

1:17:40

forward. You may think it's insignificant that you

1:17:42

saw car lights turn on, but it could

1:17:44

be the very thing in the timeline that

1:17:46

breaks things. And clearly

1:17:49

Jermaine is not there. She's

1:17:52

somewhere. Someone knows something. We've

1:17:55

talked about digging holes. Takes a

1:17:57

lot of strength to dig a

1:17:59

grave. or to dump a body, if

1:18:02

that's what's happened. Someone probably

1:18:04

knows something. And

1:18:07

I know we're speaking about this in

1:18:09

very morbid terms. We're assuming that Jermaine

1:18:11

is gone, but I think very

1:18:14

likely looking at the timeline and looking

1:18:16

at the history of their relationship, Jermaine

1:18:18

was gone by that morning. And

1:18:21

I wish that were not the case. You

1:18:23

know, there's this devastating interview

1:18:26

with her grandmother, who

1:18:28

she's very close to, and she says, I

1:18:30

pray that she was sex trafficked because it

1:18:32

means she's still alive and I

1:18:34

can find her. And

1:18:37

those are like the two hells her family is

1:18:39

having to live in. So

1:18:41

I fully believe someone knows something and

1:18:43

they're protecting someone, but

1:18:46

what's done has been done and

1:18:49

Jermaine deserves justice

1:18:52

and her family deserves answers and her sons

1:18:55

deserve answers. They were just two and a

1:18:57

half and four when she

1:18:59

disappeared. They barely

1:19:02

knew their mom, a mom who may

1:19:05

have given her life for them and

1:19:10

they deserve answers just as well. And

1:19:13

the devastating thing about this story is this

1:19:15

is but one of too many stories.

1:19:18

And if you're in this situation, but you're

1:19:20

a couple years ahead, you've had

1:19:23

the situation where someone you love

1:19:26

or you think loves you regularly

1:19:28

breaks things like your phone, regularly

1:19:30

grabs you by the neck, they've never strangled me, but

1:19:32

when they get mad, they grabbed me by the throat

1:19:34

because I wasn't listening. It's not

1:19:36

okay, it is not okay. And

1:19:38

these situations are really difficult to disentangle

1:19:41

yourself from, especially when children are involved.

1:19:44

Take your kids, get out of there.

1:19:46

There will be people there to help. There

1:19:48

will be resources, there will be money, there will be shelter

1:19:50

for you. You do not

1:19:52

have to stay behind because if it's

1:19:54

not you, next, it could be your kids. And

1:19:57

The more we talk about this, I think the

1:19:59

more.... That message can really get

1:20:01

through your loved ones because I think

1:20:03

oftentimes will whisper be like wow, how's

1:20:05

that a bad relationship Somebody should say

1:20:07

something. Maybe you should be the person to

1:20:09

say something. It may. Ruin that relationship for the

1:20:11

time being, but you may be saving. That

1:20:14

person's life. Maybe their kids' lives may

1:20:17

be something more so. Thank you guys

1:20:19

for giving us the opportunity to talk

1:20:21

about Germain's. Case it's. Deeply.

1:20:24

Unsatisfying to end with no answers

1:20:26

right now. But I also think

1:20:28

that answers are just. Just.

1:20:31

Beyond our grasp, they are not far

1:20:33

at all and read over disappearances. Burden

1:20:35

is sort of a misnomer is no

1:20:37

and disappears. The. She somewhere

1:20:39

she's out there. somewhere. And.

1:20:43

The. Thing. Is. We've said

1:20:45

some a dozen or something and I would

1:20:47

hope. If not for her

1:20:49

for kids, You. Need to say

1:20:51

something. Well. As the into this case

1:20:53

I know this has been mrs been

1:20:56

of a heavy when they often or

1:20:58

and his sister reminder of. The

1:21:00

struggles that a lot of people are going through

1:21:02

out there and we know some of you who

1:21:04

are listening or those people. We. Hope

1:21:06

that something he said today's at least given

1:21:09

a little comfort or help. Obviously.

1:21:12

Reach out as if you have any

1:21:14

questions, thoughts, If you need advice,

1:21:16

whatever he does need somebody to the talk him.

1:21:18

We're always happy to thought you guys I. Will

1:21:20

venmo you over matter? Yeah to get

1:21:22

out of the air ago we will will

1:21:25

be there for Unity where we can be.

1:21:27

We want to hear from you if you

1:21:29

have thoughts about case. If you have any

1:21:31

information reach out to Missouri City Police but

1:21:33

if you own or each other networks to

1:21:35

will make sure he gets to the right

1:21:38

people. Prosecutors pod at Ge va.com and Prosecutors

1:21:40

pod for all your social media. Enjoy talking

1:21:42

you guys doing a gallery. Think. It

1:21:44

all of you who told your friends that

1:21:46

we are all the time to people fail

1:21:48

this podcast because a friend said something to

1:21:50

them. They start listening and they fell in

1:21:52

love with it. Hope everyone of you go

1:21:54

out and tell friend this week but the

1:21:57

prosecutors. To stay there. Buddy told

1:21:59

a friend. The friendless and. How.

1:22:01

Fun would have twice as many listeners

1:22:03

and every go go go do that.

1:22:05

Thank you to everyone on patriot on

1:22:07

he supports of I guess and as

1:22:10

you he joined us tonight it is

1:22:12

difficult case. Always good to have

1:22:14

you guys along for the rods. Mouse.

1:22:16

Has been a heavy when you want to do a question.

1:22:19

Try. The and other I guess happier? No. No.

1:22:21

as a test flowers little tough one. Okay, yeah,

1:22:23

let's see a lesson. Okay, let's

1:22:26

see. Ah

1:22:28

Muffin Man wants to know

1:22:30

if we would consider doing

1:22:32

as Scioli presentation at their

1:22:34

annual conference. Sure,

1:22:37

Is the conference in how Why does this is that? Get

1:22:41

you should email as we've done

1:22:43

many as the alleys before. Actually

1:22:45

you may not believe this. Billie

1:22:47

like talking. With the like I can say

1:22:49

oh we absolutely do a series. Of. Email us at at

1:22:51

at Lead. Deathly done it before. Here we have

1:22:53

fun doing that kind of stuff, so

1:22:55

that would be, you know, Muffin Man,

1:22:58

he does. listener. The

1:23:01

muffin man said. As if he hit

1:23:03

it out. C L E as it's continuing Legal

1:23:05

Education When did you eat. And many

1:23:07

hours. To. Keeping my it every year. Jonah

1:23:10

wants to know what did you talk about

1:23:12

with my other favorite prosecutor, Crane Waters a

1:23:14

Chrome Con I would love to been a

1:23:16

part of their conversation. I asked if

1:23:18

I could take a picture, thanked him and then.

1:23:21

Fleet. Away because he so intimidating

1:23:23

that very nice guy. I can't.

1:23:25

Believe brat ran away I saw him in

1:23:27

a different thing. I just assumed you had

1:23:29

a great conversation because like bourbon. That well

1:23:32

as a late so we could have. For.

1:23:34

All of that it may when we did y U

1:23:36

s. Ou. De ya de

1:23:38

outlets Iraq because I want to bed

1:23:40

at that point So maybe I had

1:23:42

like bonding karaoke night you don't remember

1:23:45

but I saw have and I. Totally

1:23:47

Sandra Literally I was like I just want

1:23:49

you to now I'm also Prosecutor sell. This

1:23:52

is like only slightly creepy. but I watched

1:23:54

year entire trial and I thought you did

1:23:56

an excellent job that I I literally just

1:23:58

saw them live him. Prosecuted or another.

1:24:00

I was like that was you face.

1:24:03

I'm really intense. fuck fuck fuck up

1:24:05

struggles in that trial add it. Thanks

1:24:07

for being a great representative for prosecutors

1:24:09

and is like banks. who are you

1:24:11

So it's think I'm a prosecutor. Approached

1:24:13

a matter of. Money

1:24:16

was incredibly nice. Okay, we'll

1:24:18

have finished the case today. The.

1:24:21

We need to sign Anyone We do

1:24:24

and we're about to. Obviously we'll be

1:24:26

back with a new case. They actually

1:24:28

frankly not really sure which one it

1:24:30

will be, but we will have one.

1:24:32

so. Until

1:24:34

then. I'm Brett

1:24:37

and I'm Alice in We

1:24:39

Are The Prosecutors. And

1:25:07

have you seen that and I don't

1:25:10

know? l as like a real on

1:25:12

Instagram tic tac in address that it's

1:25:14

like how you deal with telephone scammer.

1:25:16

and it was like my credit card

1:25:19

number. Three.

1:25:21

Two. One

1:25:24

and now we're live with the As The. I tried to

1:25:26

tell if a gamer served in your be your name.

1:25:30

But I also hard to like only done

1:25:32

that before I'd. Like it when they say they claim

1:25:34

to be some federal aid. And

1:26:43

I know and I'm like oh they did the

1:26:45

other minerals and wells and will be his right?

1:26:47

That's so funny. Says I'm literally sitting next to

1:26:50

an F B. I give her last thing you

1:26:52

read me your badge number. Neglect the do. You.

1:26:56

Know of all the things are they know

1:26:58

that federal crime less several. Years.