0:00

Throw the best birthday party ever that

0:02

your child will always talk about. Big

0:05

Air Trampoline Park inside Fieldhouse USA at

0:07

the Polaris Mall can do just that.

0:09

Award-winning birthday party packages start at just

0:11

$300. And all birthday parties include pizza, drinks, And all

0:13

birthday parties include pizza, drinks, a party

0:15

room with a party host, grip socks,

0:17

printed invitations, and all 40 attractions at

0:19

Big Air Trampoline Park. a birthday party you It's a

0:21

birthday party you and your kids will never forget.

0:24

Book your party today. Big Air

0:26

Columbus, where the fun never

0:28

ends. Visit bigairusa.com/Columbus for details.

0:30

Welcome to another round Today

0:34

we talk brainstorms Let's

0:38

go. First question, you thought you'd

0:40

see everyone's idea in the team brainstorm, but you've got a grand total

0:44

of one. Drawing board or Miro

0:46

board? Drawing board. In Miro, the team can add

0:48

ideas now or later. And with privacy mode, we

0:51

can keep them anonymous Correct.

0:54

Next, you need the best way but

0:57

all you have is drawing

0:59

board, sticky notes, Drawing board. at

1:03

text, images, links, Right

1:06

again. Now, you're looking for a pass

1:08

slider you thought was just genius. Only

1:10

you could find... Oh, there it is. Drawing

1:13

board or... Miro. work

1:15

lives in one place. And

1:17

he's one. For a limited time,

1:19

visit miro.com/brainstorm now. to

1:22

unlock even more brainstorming tools,

1:24

like private mode and voting. That's

1:27

miro.com. Hello,

1:31

I'm Rabia Chaudhry. I invite you to join me every Tuesday for

1:33

new episodes of

1:35

Nighty Night, bedtime stories to keep you awake

1:37

now on Podcast One. This new incarnation of

1:40

Nighty Night is an anthology of

1:42

stories that bring to life classic

1:44

horror stories, some you're definitely familiar with

1:47

and others you'll be hearing for the first time. Join

1:49

me as I tuck you into bed with stories that

1:51

will leave you sleepless all night long. Get

1:54

new episodes of Nighty Night every Tuesday,

1:56

wherever you get your

1:59

podcasts. This

2:02

episode of The Prosecutors is brought to you by

2:04

Huggy's Little Movers. Get your baby's

2:06

butt into Huggy's Little Movers. We got you,

2:08

baby. I'm

2:20

Brett. And I'm Alice. And

2:22

we are The Prosecutors. Today

2:30

on The Prosecutors, we discuss the

2:32

first responder's testimony. Hello

3:14

everybody and welcome to this episode

3:16

of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett. And

3:18

I'm joined as always by my

3:21

lighthearted co-host, Alice. Hi,

3:23

Brett. Anything but, especially when you

3:25

spend all day listening to the

3:27

Karen Reid trial at 1.5 speed.

3:31

The sacrifices we made. I actually thought people in my life were

3:34

talking too slowly because I had been used

3:36

to it. But thank you

3:38

for thinking I'm lighthearted. Yeah, my

3:40

wife now is like, are we gonna watch the trial tonight?

3:44

Sure. Why not? It's

3:46

fine. I haven't already been

3:49

watching it all day. That's fine. So

3:51

we watch a lot of it too. And

3:54

that's a good thing because that's what we're covering, right?

3:56

So this is what we do for

3:58

you guys. And here's the thing, you know, you can see. clips

4:00

of it on TV. But remember,

4:02

trial goes on for like hours

4:04

and hours a day. And even

4:08

at 1.5 speed, that's a lot of hours of trial to

4:10

get to watch. Not that I'm saying

4:12

you shouldn't go watch it, but if you didn't

4:14

want to spend all day, every day watching the

4:17

Karen retrial, we're here for you. There you go.

4:19

God bless those jurors. God

4:21

bless those jurors indeed. Ask the

4:23

same question. Phrase 10 different

4:25

ways. Okay, we get it. But okay, so we're

4:28

back. We're going

4:33

to talk about first responders today. I do want to

4:35

say one thing because I feel like we always have

4:37

to comment at the beginning of these episodes. Not

4:40

surprisingly to me, but we've

4:42

only done two episodes. We haven't even released

4:45

the first one publicly and already people are

4:47

upset that we're calling this a conspiracy theory.

4:49

And I want you, number one, we're not

4:51

doing it in the pejorative way. It

4:54

is literally the theory

4:56

of the defense. The theory of the defense

4:58

is that there was a conspiracy. And I

5:00

think it's important that we all be honest

5:02

about what we're saying in this

5:04

case. If you think Karen Reed did this,

5:07

then you think an ordinary woman successful, basically

5:09

ran over her boyfriend and left him to die

5:12

in the snow. Own it.

5:14

If that's what you think, own it. If

5:16

you don't think she did that and you agree with the defense,

5:19

then you think that the people

5:21

at that house, including the McCabe's and the

5:23

Alberts either conspired to kill John or conspired

5:25

to lure him there for a fight or

5:27

just got into a fight with him and

5:29

then decided to murder him, to leave him

5:31

in the cold to die. And

5:33

then they were assisted in covering that up with

5:36

various members of the police department who were

5:38

either friends with him or related to them.

5:40

Own it. If that's what you think, own

5:42

it. And I see a lot of people use sort

5:45

of code words like, well, you know, I don't know

5:47

exactly what happened, but something strange happened in the house.

5:49

I just think there's more than what we're hearing. No,

5:51

no, no, don't do that. Own it. That's

5:54

what you think happened. And that's fine. And I will

5:56

say this about Turtle Boy, who is very controversial. A

5:58

lot of people hate him. One

6:00

thing you can't say about that man He

6:03

owns it like he is out

6:05

there saying this is a murder conspiracy these

6:08

people conspired to murder this man and the police

6:10

who are corrupt helped them pull it off and

6:13

Hat tip to him for saying exactly what he thinks and

6:15

I think we all need to own it as we're going

6:17

through this and looking at the evidence and watching these people

6:20

on the stand like you need to watch these people on

6:22

the stand and decide whether

6:24

or not they did this you

6:26

need to Listen to the

6:28

evidence and decide whether or not Karen

6:30

Reid did this own it

6:32

This is not fiction and it's not a

6:34

sport. It's real life all these people's lives

6:37

from Karen Reid down to

6:39

you know Colin Albert who's

6:41

like 17 when this happened their lives on

6:43

the line here And I think we all need to be

6:45

honest about what we're saying and we're gonna continue to do

6:47

that Whether it irritates people or

6:49

not and let's be clear when

6:51

we say we're not using the term conspiracy in

6:54

the pejorative way Literally a conspiracy in the

6:56

legal sense are people more than one person

6:58

and usually I mean you can charge a

7:00

conspiracy with two people But here we're talking

7:02

about many many more than

7:04

two people But all you need for conspiracy

7:06

is two or more people who have a

7:08

meeting of the minds to carry out Something

7:11

illegal and also think about

7:13

what exact conspiracy is your

7:15

theory of the case is it that they

7:17

conspired to? Lear

7:19

John to the house to kill

7:21

him or is it that he

7:23

died maybe even in some not in Intentful

7:25

way like he died whatever it was he

7:27

overdosed. I don't know he tripped He died

7:29

whatever it was, but they conspired to cover

7:31

it up because that's also a conspiracy, but

7:33

there are different Conspiracies actually that

7:36

are being laid out by the defense and

7:38

you don't have to buy every single one of them

7:41

But when you say something fishy happened what

7:43

you're saying is something fishy happened. That was

7:45

illegal. That is a conspiracy And

7:48

we need to use words that have meaning that

7:50

we agree upon in order to talk about this

7:52

case Instead of just I

7:55

have a bad feeling about this and that's what we're trying

7:57

to do is put words to what you're seeing in and

8:00

also what people are saying euphemistically

8:02

without actually using the words that have

8:04

the legal meaning behind it. With that.

8:08

With that. With

8:10

that though, this is why it's

8:12

important because we are going through

8:14

witness testimony and these witnesses were

8:17

at the prosecution phase of the case. As

8:19

of the time of recording, the prosecution is

8:21

still presenting their case. So, of

8:23

course, they're the ones calling the witnesses

8:25

to make sure there's evidence

8:27

to meet the legal standard for the

8:30

charges that Karen Reed is indicted with.

8:32

But listen to what the cross-examination

8:35

is because so far in the

8:37

witnesses we've covered, I

8:39

believe almost every single one of them, except maybe a

8:41

family member or two, are

8:44

by the cross-examination implied to be part

8:46

of this conspiracy. Implied to know something,

8:49

to cover up something, elicit

8:51

in order to frame Karen Reed. So

8:53

that's why this is important because even

8:55

though these are prosecution witnesses, the defense

8:57

is starting to put on its conspiracy

8:59

case now. And we're going to

9:01

see more of that today. And just one aside, Turtle

9:03

Boy, if you don't know who that is, he's a

9:06

blogger in Massachusetts, a citizen journalist

9:08

who uncovers corruption in the police

9:10

and truly believes that Karen Reed

9:12

is innocent and there is a

9:14

corrupt cover-up. And he has been very vocal

9:16

about that to the point that I think he currently has 16

9:18

felony charges for witness intimidation. So

9:21

he's very passionate and committed. And,

9:24

you know, if you watch the trial, occasionally you

9:26

see arguments about whether he can be in the

9:28

courtroom or not. So he's very much a part

9:30

of this case. But with all that said, let's

9:32

get to Anthony Flamedi. Okay,

9:35

Anthony Flamedi. He is

9:37

a Canton firefighter. And when you watch

9:40

him testify, and there is a lot

9:42

that he's going to say, cross-examination is

9:44

pretty arduous. I mean,

9:46

I think it's going to be arduous

9:48

for just about all of the witnesses,

9:50

but he's very matter of fact. He's

9:52

non-emotional. He is, you know,

9:55

a professional and it comes off. It doesn't seem

9:57

like he has an agenda. He answers the question

9:59

before. better

12:00

was to try and save his life

12:02

if that was possible at all. And

12:05

I think Flemati is one of the ones who talks

12:07

about how sometimes when someone's really cold, that actually is

12:09

an opportunity to save a life that you would not

12:11

be able to save otherwise. That sort

12:13

of being in that low

12:16

temperature can preserve life

12:18

in bizarre ways. I mean, there are crazy stories about

12:20

that. And that was sort of their hope, even though

12:23

there wasn't a lot of signs of life. But

12:25

John, nevertheless, there might be a possibility once you

12:27

warm him up and get his core temperature up

12:30

that maybe you could get his heart started. And because of

12:32

how cold he was, he might be

12:34

able to have sort of a miraculous recovery. But obviously

12:36

that didn't happen. And one thing to

12:38

note, if you watch his testimony is he's not

12:40

defensive about, for example, not

12:43

being able to say more or engage Karen Reed more

12:46

because he's like, I'm there to save his life. That

12:48

was my job. You know, that's he's not defensive

12:51

about it. He doesn't try to make

12:53

up answers because you'll set you'll have witnesses

12:55

sometimes who try to give whoever's

12:57

asking the question answer. I don't know. I

13:00

was focused on his core temperature. I was

13:02

focused on chest compressions. I was focused on,

13:04

you know, X, Y, and Z medically. It

13:07

explains all of these medical interventions and there

13:09

were a lot of them. Then

13:11

of course, the defense gets to cross-examine him. And

13:14

the defense noted that the conversation he said he

13:16

had with Reed, where Reed was saying, I hit

13:18

him, I hit him, oh my God, I hit

13:20

him. This wasn't

13:23

actually in a report

13:25

anywhere created by Flomati. Now,

13:27

remember who Flomati is. He's

13:29

a firefighter. Now, Flomati notes

13:31

that that's because his report

13:33

writing ends at the transfer of the patient.

13:36

So it's not likely to be in

13:39

any report. One

13:41

thing to note though, so he's saying that's

13:43

not my duty, right? Like if you were

13:45

a police officer, we talked about earlier that

13:47

when a police officer doesn't put something like,

13:49

you know, I hit him, it's my fault

13:52

in the police report, that's a problem. But

13:54

he's a firefighter who's there to save life.

13:57

One thing to note though, when he... Here's

28:01

a special limited time deal for our

28:03

listeners. Right now, get up to 60%

28:05

off your Babbel subscription, but only for

28:07

our listeners at

28:10

babble.com/prosecutors. Get

28:13

up to 60%

28:16

off at babble.com/prosecutors,

28:19

spelled babbel.com/prosecutors. Rules

28:22

and restrictions may apply. This

28:25

episode of The Prosecutors is brought to you by

28:27

Huggies Little Movers. Huggies knows that

28:29

babies come in all shapes and sizes and their

28:31

tushies do too. Huggies

28:34

Little Movers with its curved and stretchy fit.

28:36

Moms know that there's nothing worse than

28:38

an ill-fitting diaper, especially for your active

28:41

babies. I love Huggies

28:43

because I can rely on them to

28:45

keep my baby covered while she moves

28:47

around. You guys have heard about my

28:49

sweet little baby. She just turned one

28:52

deep into mobility. I am

28:54

so excited about Huggies Little Movers because

28:56

she can roll around, jump around, climb,

28:59

which is everything she's doing. And I

29:01

know that she is covered and so

29:03

am I in the cleanup. We

29:06

all want the very best for our

29:08

babies and that's Huggies. Huggies

29:10

Little Movers are curved so babies feel

29:12

comfy no matter how much they're moving

29:15

around and they're moving around a lot.

29:17

They also offer up to 12-hour protection against

29:20

leaks, which is a game changer. Get

29:22

your baby's butt into Huggies Little Movers. We

29:25

got you, baby. Throw

29:29

the best birthday party ever that your

29:31

child will always talk about. Big Air

29:33

Trampoline Park inside Field House USA at

29:36

the Polaris Mall can do just that.

29:38

Award winning birthday party packages start at

29:40

just $300 and all birthday parties include

29:42

pizza, drinks, a party room with a

29:45

party host, grip socks, printed invitations and

29:47

all 40 attractions at Big Air Trampoline

29:49

Park. This is a birthday party you

29:51

and your kids will never forget. Book

29:54

your party today. Big Air Columbus, where

29:56

the fun never ends. Visit bigairusa.com/Columbus for

29:58

details. to another

30:00

round of drawing board or Miro

30:02

board. Today we discuss technical diagramming

30:04

with systems architect, Maya. Let's go.

30:06

First question, you've spent 10 hours

30:09

slogging over a sequence diagram that should have

30:12

taken five. Drawing board or Miro board? Drawing

30:14

board. And if I'm being honest, Miro would

30:16

probably cut that time down by half. You

30:18

know, with its AI tools and ready to

30:20

go templates. Next, your diagrams become

30:22

so bulky, it's more complex than the

30:24

solar system. But all it takes is

30:26

a few clicks and? It's Miro. It

30:29

views those technical shape packs way too many

30:31

times. Now, the final question, everyone's

30:33

brought in, but you have to make all

30:35

these tasks all the way over in Jira.

30:38

But wait, it's done. Is it? Miro,

30:40

easy with its two-way Jira sync. Easy

30:42

to plot dependencies. Everyone always knows what's

30:44

up. And she's done it. For

30:46

a limited time, visit miro.com/diagram now

30:48

and get a free business plan

30:51

trial to unlock even more features

30:53

like advanced shapes, dependency mapping, and

30:55

two-way Jira syncing. Get started today

30:58

at miro.com/diagram now. ["The

32:00

I'm not saying it right. It's not bad. You're

32:02

doing it right. It's not bad. It's not bad.

32:05

Outside the presence of the jury, the defense further

32:07

questioned Katie. And the reason this is a

32:09

sidebar, by the way, is because they're trying to

32:11

bring in evidence, I think pictures, that they

32:13

had not previously shown the prosecution.

32:15

So this is, you can absolutely object

32:17

to this because you can't have last

32:19

minute, you know, kind of surprise elements.

32:21

So this is why everything's happening outside

32:24

of the jury. It's not

32:26

because of some legal thing. This

32:28

is late produced. We haven't had a chance to look at this. We haven't

32:30

had a chance to decide if we want to object to this. So

32:33

outside the presence of the jury, the defense

32:35

further questions Katie. And this can happen where

32:37

a witness is still on the stand and

32:40

she is answering questions, but the jury's not hearing

32:42

this. And the purpose of this is for the

32:44

judge to see what the questions are, if it's

32:46

going to be relevant and having to make kind

32:48

of these decisions on the spot

32:51

without prejudicing the jury who would have heard

32:53

the testimony. And in that case, it's hard

32:55

to get them to unhear what they've heard.

32:58

We had a whole day of this in Murdaw, you may recall, where

33:01

we did like a whole day of testimony

33:03

about all the stuff Murdaw had done financially.

33:05

And then the judge had to decide what to let in

33:07

front of the jury. And that's basically what's happening here. Yeah.

33:10

So there's all these pictures and the purpose of these pictures

33:12

is to show how close Kaitlyn and

33:14

Katie are. Of course, the

33:16

prosecution, as they should, because they hadn't seen

33:18

these photos previously, objected them.

33:21

And so this questioning is going

33:23

to whether the prosecution's objections to

33:25

this evidence could be sustained

33:27

or overruled. So the

33:30

defense shows a picture to Katie of

33:33

Kaitlyn's Facebook page, listing

33:36

Katie as one of Kaitlyn's

33:38

friends. I don't like to

33:40

call people out on their ages, typically, because

33:42

I am also getting up in my age

33:44

as well. But this was definitely

33:47

a boomer moment because I was like, really?

33:49

How many friends do most people have? And

33:51

the fact that you are friends with someone

33:53

on Facebook could mean nothing. Right? And

33:55

I'm like, did we go to high school together? I'm not sure. And

33:58

I'm friends with a lot of people. for all of you who

34:00

I'm friends with on Facebook. Everyone of you. I

34:03

was gonna say, especially if you had a common

34:05

connection, like you went to high school together, I

34:07

think I'm friends with maybe

34:10

a thousand people I went to high school with whom

34:12

I haven't spoken with in decades,

34:14

right? So this was, I thought, incredibly

34:16

weak. It wasn't like they listed each

34:19

other as cousins, or like

34:21

sister from another Mr. Sort of situation. It

34:23

was straight up, they are friends on

34:26

Facebook. But it does get better,

34:28

it does get better than that. I just thought that

34:30

was a very weak sort of thing, even though the

34:32

defense really harped on it and wanted it to be

34:34

significant. They then move

34:36

on to, I think, better evidence of them

34:39

being friends. They show a photo of a

34:41

bunch of people together, and it includes Caitlin

34:44

and Katie in this picture, but it wasn't just the two of

34:46

them, it was a lot of people. Katie

34:48

looks at the photo and she says she doesn't recall

34:50

when or where it was taken, though it appeared to

34:52

be from around 2014, 10 years ago. Probably

34:57

close in time to when they graduated high school,

34:59

or at least 10 years in time closer to

35:01

when they graduated from high school. After

35:04

showing yet another photograph, which

35:06

Katie, again, didn't really particularly

35:08

remember, which had about 12 people

35:10

in it, again, big group of people with

35:12

both Katie and Caitlin in it, the defense

35:14

pulls out yet another photo. And

35:17

this one, again, includes both Katie and

35:19

Caitlin. And the

35:21

defense takes a closeup of this

35:23

photo. It shows Katie and Caitlin

35:25

in bathing suits with Caitlin's arm

35:27

around her and Caitlin drinking a beer. What it

35:29

looks like is, again, probably a bigger group photo

35:32

and they focus in on the fact that they're

35:34

next to each other. Probably

35:36

it's some gathering

35:38

party event, whatever. Bathing suits,

35:41

beers, hanging out. This

35:43

was not, it did not have any gacha

35:45

moments for me, where it was so clear

35:47

that they were the, call

35:49

me if you have to bury a body sort of situation.

35:51

They were clearly in the same group of friends, acquaintances,

35:54

all things that Katie actually testified to.

35:57

So after this wah deer, and this is what it's

35:59

called, when. Katie's being questioned outside of the presence

36:01

of the jury. The judge sustains

36:03

the prosecution's objection to these photographs

36:06

since they were not shown to

36:08

the prosecution ahead of time and

36:10

didn't really elicit value to

36:13

Katie's testimony. But

36:16

the judge does allow the defense to

36:18

ask questions about the relationship between Katie

36:20

and Caitlin, but can't show

36:22

these photos, it can't really delve too deeply

36:24

into it because we're kind of getting into

36:26

the realm of irrelevance. The

36:28

defense essentially asks questions about the

36:30

pictures without showing them, which really

36:33

skirts the line of the judge's

36:35

sustaining of the objection, but they do it. She

36:38

shouldn't have sustained the objection and she's

36:40

gonna allow those questions because it was

36:42

just weird to ask questions. Are

36:45

you aware there's a photograph of you in a bathing

36:47

suit with your arm around it? It's like, why do

36:49

we do it? Anyway. I

36:51

agree, I mean, it's confusing. We know what's going

36:54

on, but the jury doesn't. And

36:56

essentially by asking those questions and everyone's

36:58

thinking, well, is there a photo? I

37:00

guess there is a photo. And the whole point was, you

37:02

don't get to show the photos. But

37:05

anyway, on redirect, the prosecution notes

37:07

that the civil service, remember

37:10

Katie, is in the civil

37:12

service here. Like many towns,

37:15

they give you like extra credit for serving

37:17

in your own hometown, right? You don't wanna

37:19

brain drain or what it's called when people

37:21

leave their town. They wanna draw people back

37:23

to their hometown where they're invested and raise

37:25

their families back in their hometown. And

37:28

so the fact that Katie is from

37:30

this town comes back, gets extra credit,

37:32

you know, in her civil service for

37:34

serving here, it is not surprising that

37:36

she knows or is acquainted with people

37:40

who she responds to on her calls in her

37:42

job. And let me just say, I thought they're

37:45

going to be parts of this conspiracy, the

37:47

defense does a pretty good job with. I

37:49

thought this was a mistake because

37:51

to me at

37:53

least, this whole series

37:56

of questions made me doubt

37:58

the conspiracy. from the very beginning

38:01

because there was no, she

38:04

went to high school with the girl at the last time

38:06

they were together. Was it somebody's baby shower four years ago?

38:09

Is she really based on that the

38:12

next day going to tell police that

38:15

this woman who,

38:17

who she doesn't know said

38:19

that she hit a man who died to

38:21

protect someone from her high

38:23

school? Is she really going to do that?

38:26

Is that really believable? You

38:28

know, the defense spent so much time on,

38:31

because basically she said, well, I think we're more

38:33

of acquaintances than friends, we're not close friends. And

38:36

the defense just kept hammering on this. It's like, guys,

38:40

you, this is all you've got is some photos of her

38:42

and a bunch of friends at the beach drinking beers. That's

38:45

all you get from when they were like high school.

38:48

And you could explain what

38:51

Karen Reed is saying, just

38:53

accept that she said that, and she's hysterical.

38:56

He's dead. She doesn't know what happened. She's the

38:58

only thing she can imagine is that somehow when

39:00

she dropped him off the day before she hit

39:02

him and now she's, she's crushed by guilt. And

39:05

only later did she realize that no, in fact,

39:08

the Alberts did this. They're

39:10

the ones responsible, not her. But

39:12

you could have just done that and you could

39:14

have explained this away, but instead you try and

39:17

wrap this into the conspiracy. And so what you're

39:19

doing is you're expanding this conspiracy. Like

39:21

this conspiracy at its broadest point is

39:23

huge. Cause this would

39:25

mean you've got the Canton firefighters

39:27

here involved as well through Katie

39:29

McLaughlin, who has influenced other members

39:32

of the firefighting group to

39:35

agree with her, to repeat this

39:37

testimony, to perjure themselves and say

39:39

that they heard Karen Reed say

39:41

this, or she's subtly manipulated their

39:43

minds until they believe this happened.

39:46

And that is of all the things they're

39:48

going to say, the least believable part of

39:50

the conspiracy. And by having that weak link

39:52

in the conspiracy that I don't even think

39:54

you need, it undermines a

39:56

lot of your future, much better evidence

39:59

of a conspiracy. So that brings us to

40:01

Greg Woodbury. He is also a member

40:03

of the Canton Fire Department. He

40:06

says that the police were there when they arrived.

40:09

John was laying on his back in the snow.

40:11

In fact, he was covered with snow, as

40:13

was the area around him. CPR had been

40:15

begun, but John had no breathing

40:18

and no pulse. They put John in

40:20

the ambulance and after McLaughlin entered the

40:22

ambulance and told them someone said she

40:24

had hit him. Hugely

40:27

important, right? Because now you've got

40:29

Greg Woodbury right after you've

40:31

got the defense accusing them all of being

40:33

involved in this conspiracy of

40:35

saying, of essentially, and remember the

40:37

rule has been invoked, so he's

40:39

not supposed to be in there when Katie is testifying. He's not

40:41

supposed to know what she said. He

40:43

is now confirming that immediately after seeing

40:46

Karen and hearing this, Katie said this

40:48

to them, not even the next day,

40:51

immediately, which means either

40:53

the conspiracy got going really

40:55

fast and Katie somehow was

40:58

wrapped up in that conspiracy very quickly

41:00

or that's just

41:03

what she heard her say. Either

41:06

way, so he says that later

41:08

that day, Woodbury would be called back to

41:10

Fairview Road to conduct something called

41:12

a Section 12, which is

41:15

what they call it in Massachusetts when someone appears

41:17

to be suffering from a psychological issue. There's going

41:20

to be a lot of testimony about this and

41:22

about whether or not Karen Reed

41:24

was exhibiting sort of maybe potentially

41:26

suicidal tendencies, which once again, doesn't really tell you

41:28

a whole lot about whether she did it or

41:30

didn't do it, but is a fact of this

41:32

case. Reed did

41:34

not want to go to the hospital at that time,

41:36

but she kept repeating, is he dead? Is

41:38

he dead? Another paramedic

41:40

firefighter for Canton testifies and

41:43

it's Daniel Whitley. He

41:46

testifies that he nearly slid off the road

41:49

going to the Section 12 call that he

41:52

worked on with Woodbury and he did so

41:54

because it was snowing so badly, as we've

41:56

already seen in the dash cams and a

41:58

lot of people, everyone. is going to talk

42:00

about how bad the weather was. Now,

42:03

he testifies that Karen talked about not

42:06

wanting to live anymore. It makes sense that

42:08

this is part of his testimony because Whitley

42:10

is there specifically for the Section 12 to

42:12

help out, to see if there's a psych

42:14

issue going on, if Karen Reed needs to

42:16

be held for any sort of mental

42:19

issue. So

42:21

Karen talks about not wanting to live anymore

42:23

if her husband dies. That's

42:26

what Whitley testifies to, which honestly

42:29

they thought didn't really rise to the level

42:31

of Section 12, but was

42:33

actually part of the normal grieving process,

42:35

the shock of seeing someone that

42:38

you love or in a relationship with dead

42:40

in front of you. And

42:43

also kind of confirming what Woodbury said,

42:45

Whitley says that Karen kept asking if

42:48

John was alive or dead. And

42:51

also went on to ask how long someone

42:53

could live in the snow. That's

42:56

important because if the

42:58

prosecution's theory is that Karen hid him hours

43:00

earlier than how long he's in the snow

43:02

is relevant and it shows kind of that

43:04

intent of knowing that she actually hid him

43:07

back then and that he was in the snow

43:09

for many hours. And

43:11

Whitley would also testify that Karen kept going

43:14

from crying to all of a sudden being

43:16

perky, like perking up being okay than crying,

43:18

which honestly is probably also part of the

43:20

grieving process, part of the shock. And

43:23

he testifies that Karen is crying about having

43:25

to take care of kids and that she couldn't

43:27

do it alone. It was too much. And

43:31

he said that she did have a good

43:33

support system and she

43:35

asked if he knew Carrie

43:37

Roberts. Now Whitley responded yes

43:40

and just said that Carrie Roberts was

43:42

nice. And she said,

43:44

anyone who knew Carrie Roberts wouldn't say

43:46

that, which is kind of a strange

43:48

thing to say at that time. And

43:51

Whitley testified that it

43:54

kind of shocked him that at this moment with

43:56

John O'Keefe, you know, lying lifeless in front

43:58

of him, she raised him. So then Jason Becker

44:00

testifies he went with Whitley to the Section 12, which

44:03

by the way, it was her dad who called him

44:05

the concerns about Karen that led to the Section 12

44:07

in the first place. The

44:12

main point of this court is that the court is not going to be able

44:14

to do anything about it. The

44:16

main point of this witness was that Reed was upset that the

44:18

last interaction she had with John was that she got

44:20

into an argument with him. She

44:28

also at one point asked if she could

44:30

have hit him, which is different from I did hit

44:32

him, could I have hit him? And it's something the

44:35

defense tries to focus on as maybe what she

44:38

said to everyone. There was

44:40

an unusual back and forth with the defense about

44:42

whether Becker initially said that Reed had denied taking

44:44

drugs or alcohol, but then admitted to drinking alcohol.

44:48

I didn't really understand why this

44:50

was particularly helpful for the defense to bring

44:52

this out. Because Becker didn't really seem like

44:54

a guy who's trying to hurt Karen and

44:56

getting more testimony about her drinking isn't necessarily

44:58

a good thing. By

45:02

this point, you can sort of see the

45:04

development of the prosecution's story here. So

45:08

you have Karen. She's driving her car to

45:10

the defense. She's driving her car to the defense. And

45:13

then she's trying to get a little bit of a sense of

45:15

what happened. You can sort of see

45:17

the development of the prosecution's story here. So you

45:19

have Karen. She's

45:22

driving John over to this house. They

45:25

get into some sort of argument. She

45:28

hits him with a vehicle and

45:30

leaves. Then at some

45:32

point later, she comes back. She realizes he's dead.

45:35

She's overcome with grief

45:38

and guilt, and she starts telling everybody she

45:40

can talk to. I hit him. I hit

45:42

him. That's the theory. The prosecution is starting

45:44

to build here. And they've managed to do

45:46

it with various different people, most of whom

45:49

aren't really related to the

45:51

supposed conspirators at all, with the

45:53

exception of Katie McLaughlin, whose

45:55

story is corroborated by other people

45:57

who are not. You wouldn't think.

46:00

would be part of this conspiracy, but given

46:03

how broadly you think this

46:05

conspiracy guys maybe are in order

46:07

to help Katie and to protect

46:09

her, they're willing to lie about

46:12

Karen. I will say this, if

46:15

this turns out to be a conspiracy, get yourself

46:17

some friends like the people in Canton have, because

46:19

they have apparently built like a tight knit

46:22

community that will

46:24

defend each other against outsiders, even

46:27

when the connections between them are

46:29

relatively limited, if

46:32

you buy the sort of full scale conspiracy.

46:35

As I've said before, I thought this was a really weak part

46:37

in the defense and they should have kind of let this go.

46:40

So next, Paul Gallagher testifies he's from

46:42

the Canton police department and he's a

46:44

lieutenant. He arrived shortly after

46:46

7am and even though that's the morning,

46:48

it's still very dark and very windy,

46:51

still part of this snowstorm that's happening.

46:53

At this point, John has been taken

46:55

away. He's not on the scene anymore.

46:58

He testifies that it's snowing heavily, at

47:01

least four inches of snow, making it

47:03

a unique and difficult scene to process.

47:06

He testified that there were light pink

47:08

spots in the snow, which they thought

47:10

might be blood and they wanted to process

47:12

the scene, but they never had to do

47:14

it with so much snow. So

47:16

to try and kind of deal with all the

47:18

snow that was already on the ground and collecting,

47:21

they get a leaf blower to remove some of

47:23

the snow, which is kind of

47:25

difficult because that's probably going to blow away some evidence too. Look,

47:28

I've been in Nor'easters and I don't

47:30

know, however you can get rid of that snow, I get it. And

47:33

look, I mean, this is a point some people have

47:35

raised, like, you could have damaged

47:37

the scene or whatever. And I feel like

47:39

sometimes I think we all know what the

47:41

CSI effect is, but we still fall into

47:43

it. This is the real

47:45

world. And in the real world, when you're

47:47

trying to collect evidence in the middle of

47:50

a blizzard, some things

47:52

are going to have to be done that you would prefer not to

47:54

do. You're going to have to

47:56

do some things that may lose you some

47:58

evidence, may contaminate some evidence to try and

48:00

get whatever you can and save the scene.

48:02

This is awful. The wind

48:04

is howling. The snow is

48:07

coming down. They got

48:09

this blood in the snow. When they think it's blood in the

48:11

snow, at some point, snow is

48:13

going to melt and then that's going to be gone and

48:16

they want to see what's underneath the snow. Like

48:19

a knife or a gun or maybe someone's

48:21

wallet that he was on. You know, I

48:23

mean, you don't know what it is. Dig?

48:25

Would that be better? They get out shovels

48:27

and started digging through the snow? Would that

48:30

be less contaminant? Have you ever? I think I've

48:32

told the story before, but it's worth telling

48:34

here. My very first snowstorm in Connecticut, I

48:37

didn't know you had to dig out your car

48:39

while the snow was still falling because it's a

48:42

lot of work. So I waited to the next

48:44

morning and it was 10

48:47

hours later, not that long. And

48:49

my car was completely covered. It was like this type

48:51

of snow, right? When I looked outside, there were at

48:53

least four inches of snow already. And I was like,

48:55

I'll just get it in the morning. It's dark

48:58

outside. I don't want to go outside and

49:00

below, you know, in the teens and shovel. In

49:03

the morning, my car was completely covered up

49:05

to the windshield, like halfway up the windshield

49:07

with snow. And it had frozen overnight. And

49:10

my car was frozen for the rest of winter.

49:12

I didn't get access to my car for three

49:14

and a half months. That may

49:16

happen here, right? This is a nor'easter.

49:18

If they waited, it could freeze or,

49:21

you know, it could melt later. There's actually so much

49:23

that could happen. And so there are kind of extreme

49:25

measures and you're thinking on the spot, what can we do?

49:27

We have a man who is at the

49:30

hospital, might be dead, but we're trying to

49:32

process the scene in the midst of this

49:34

storm. Yeah. I mean, if you want to

49:36

criticize this, feel free. But the man in

49:38

the arena was having to come up with

49:40

something pretty quickly to try and get whatever

49:42

he could out of this scene where

49:45

a cop's just been found dead. And

49:47

frankly, I just don't have

49:49

a lot of time for people who want to

49:51

criticize stuff like this when these officers are doing

49:54

the best they can. There's no reason to think

49:57

Paul Gallagher showed up, decided I'm going to ruin

49:59

this scene. Save whoever actually killed John

50:01

O'Keefe. I think he's just doing the best he can. And

50:03

like I said, if you want to criticize it, if you

50:05

can come up with a better way to do it right

50:07

now, sitting in your warm home. Okay.

50:09

Good for you. Maybe you should send that to

50:12

every police department in the Northeast. So they'll have

50:14

that information. And here's the

50:16

thing. Gallagher addresses this. He said that it's

50:19

not like he just was like, let's

50:21

get a leaf blower and blow away all

50:23

the evidence. He's saying, I'd actually seen someone

50:25

use this tactic before in processing a scene

50:28

when there was a lot of snow. So it's

50:30

7 a.m. We're trying to figure out what to do. I

50:32

saw someone do this before. So I grabbed a leaf blower. Makes

50:35

sense, right? It's not something he made up on

50:37

the spot. He'd seen it done before. In any

50:40

event, it happened. Right? It

50:42

did happen. And that's part of what you have

50:45

to deal with. And the

50:47

police took pictures of footprints in the snow

50:49

and what they thought might be blood. But

50:52

at this point, the winds were so high,

50:54

they couldn't put up a tent to kind

50:56

of preserve the crime scene. And

50:59

the situation was extremely difficult. Honestly, this makes

51:02

me think of like Dyatlov Pass where they

51:04

couldn't get their tent put up because the

51:06

wind was so strong. Similar

51:08

here, right? This is not a

51:11

controlled environment whatsoever. So then a

51:13

video was played with Gallagher, Sergeant

51:15

Lang and Sergeant Good assisting him.

51:19

In this video, you see them remove the snow

51:21

layer by layer with the leaf blower. They're essentially

51:23

trying, they're not just like blasting it. They're

51:25

trying to kind of go through each layer because

51:27

as the snow falls, evidence may be,

51:30

you know, kind of in between the snow. You're

51:32

trying to see if each layer has something that

51:34

is worth getting. That's what they're trying to do.

51:36

And let me just say this, if you haven't

51:38

seen this, watch it. Because actually, it was

51:41

really effective. When

51:43

they did it, it was kind of like amazing because

51:45

you start to see the blood come out more and

51:48

more. I don't know. I expected

51:50

it to be a lot more

51:52

chaotic. Exactly. You know what I mean? I

51:54

thought it was going to be like, like when my

51:56

kids take the leaf blower and like things

51:58

go everywhere. Rather, it's kind of like. Like,

52:00

essentially trying to dust. If you had like

52:03

a broom and you're dusting each layer because

52:05

that's exactly what happens in a snowfall, right?

52:07

Things are covered up and it's quite literally

52:09

layering on top of each other. So trying

52:11

to remove layer and layer of snow to

52:13

see what's underneath and they do uncover things.

52:16

And what you see in this

52:18

video is they expose pieces of

52:20

broken cocktail glass and the light

52:22

pink spots begin to turn dark

52:25

red as they remove the upper

52:27

layers of snow. So I mean,

52:29

I thought this was really interesting

52:31

because it undercuts a lot

52:33

of people's arguments that the leaf blower was

52:35

a terrible idea. I'm not exactly

52:37

sure with a shovel how you'd be able to

52:39

do the same level of

52:41

uncovering this evidence. So

52:44

that's all they saw at that point

52:46

where the light pink spots turning dark

52:49

red and the glass and the cocktail

52:51

glass broken pieces. But the scene continues

52:53

to deteriorate and it's obviously an unusual

52:55

scene. The officers asked a neighbor for

52:58

some red solo cups. Red

53:00

solo cups are going to be like

53:02

the icon picture, whatever you want to

53:04

call it of this case,

53:07

right? Because they want

53:09

to put the apparent blood samples in these

53:11

cups, like to scoop it up and preserve

53:13

it because they are again, kind

53:15

of in this unwieldy situation. So

53:18

they do that and they bag and

53:20

seal these red solo cups with apparent

53:22

blood samples in them. The

53:24

defense would make hay of this,

53:26

noting these were the same kind

53:28

of cups you would use to

53:31

drink beer at a barbecue in,

53:33

basically saying like how unprofessional this

53:35

is that they're treating a

53:37

crime scene like a beer pong game. homes.com

53:45

knows when it comes to home shopping,

53:47

it's never just about the house or

53:49

condo, it's about the home. And

53:51

what makes a home is more than just

53:53

the house or property, it's the location and

53:56

neighborhood. If you have kids,

53:58

it's also schools, nearby parks, and

54:00

and transportation options. That's why homes.com

54:02

goes above and beyond to bring

54:04

home shoppers the in-depth information they

54:06

need to find the right home.

54:08

And when I say in-depth, I'm talking deep.

54:12

Each listing features comprehensive information about

54:14

the neighborhood complete with a video

54:16

guide. They also have details about

54:18

local schools with test scores, state

54:20

rankings, and student to teacher ratio.

54:22

They even have an agent directory

54:25

with the sales history of each

54:27

agent. So when it comes to

54:29

finding a home, not just a

54:31

house, this is everything you need

54:33

to know all in one place.

54:35

homes.com. We've done your homework. Welcome

54:45

to another round of drawing board

54:47

or Miro board. Today we talk

54:50

brainstorm with UX designer Brian. Let's

54:52

go. First question, you thought you'd

54:54

see everyone's idea in the team brainstorm

54:56

but you've got a grand total of... one.

55:01

Drawing board or Miro board? Drawing board, right?

55:04

Because in Miro the team can add ideas

55:06

now or later. And with privacy mode we

55:08

can keep them anonymous until they're good to

55:10

share. Correct. Next, you need the best way

55:13

to explain your idea, but all you have

55:15

is a few sticky notes. Drawing board or

55:17

Miro board? Drawing board, because you know in

55:19

Miro I could record videos at text, images,

55:21

links and digital sticky notes of course, present

55:24

my thoughts the way I want. Right again.

55:26

Now you're looking There

55:32

it is. Drawing board or Miro. All

55:34

our finished and unfinished work lives in

55:36

one place. And he's won. Join

55:39

over 60 million people getting ideas noticed

55:41

in Miro Brainstorms. Get your first three

55:43

boards for free at miro.com. That's m-i-r-o.com.

55:47

Throw the best birthday party ever that

55:49

your child will always talk about. Big

55:51

Air Trampoline Park inside Field House USA

55:53

at the Polaris Mall can do just that.

55:55

Award-winning birthday party packages start at just $300.

55:57

An all-birthday party. include

56:00

pizza, drinks, a party room with a

56:02

party host, grip socks, printed invitations, and

56:04

all 40 attractions at Big Air Trampoline

56:07

Park. It's a birthday party you and your

56:09

kids will never forget. Book your party

56:11

today. Big Air Columbus, where

56:13

the fun never ends. Visit

56:15

bigairusa.com/Columbus for details. Gallagher

56:19

acknowledged that this was unusual, but

56:21

stated that nothing at the scene was standard.

56:23

The defense would then go on to show

56:26

photographs taken by police of the Solo Cups

56:28

in the Sally Port, where the vehicle

56:31

was also being kept. The

56:33

defense suggests that this could have

56:36

led to inadvertent cross-contamination or intentionally

56:38

putting blood on the vehicle, though

56:40

you have to wonder why you'd

56:42

do that and then document it with police photographs. Like,

56:45

if you were trying to contaminate your evidence, you try

56:47

to do that in secret and not do

56:49

it as part of your police evidence. So

56:52

they did the best they could with the leaf blower

56:54

and the Solo Red Cups, but the defense, obviously

56:56

in their cross-examination, is trying to show that this

56:58

is all unusual,

57:01

making fun of the police. And this is

57:04

kind of strange because the whole Red Solo

57:06

Cup is less towards the conspiracy and more

57:08

towards how incompetent the police are, but they're

57:10

so incompetent that they're able to pull off

57:12

a very complex conspiracy. Right.

57:15

I guess they should ask the neighbor for Tupperware,

57:18

something they could like plop the

57:20

top on. I mean, look, if

57:22

I were in Canton or the Boston Police

57:24

Department, I probably would try and have some

57:26

sort of evidence collection tool that you could

57:29

use in a situation like this, where you

57:31

can collect snow, essentially, before it melts and

57:33

keep it. Yeah, they probably

57:36

should have had that. You know, I mean, the defense

57:38

is all like, did you go back and get flags?

57:40

And they're like, no, we didn't go back and get

57:42

flags. And it's one of those things where, criticize

57:45

it if you want, but I think it

57:47

was better than leaving it there to

57:49

melt, to me. And,

57:52

you know, maybe there's the, you're worried

57:55

about cross-contamination. I understand the sort of

57:57

intentional, like the idea that someone could

57:59

have... of going into the

58:01

Sally port and getting one of the cups,

58:03

got one of the cups of blood out and

58:06

dabbed it on her bumper to

58:08

try and show to, to, to

58:10

further the conspiracy, which is what, once again, I

58:12

mean, that's, that's the whole point of this,

58:14

right? Like we're not the ones

58:17

making this up. If you

58:19

hear that and you think that's ridiculous, I can't believe they would,

58:21

they would try and say that's what the defense is trying to

58:23

say. That is what the defense is trying to say is

58:26

that. That gave

58:28

the ability for someone to do that.

58:31

The cross-contamination is a little less problematic as

58:33

far as like, I mean, I'm not

58:35

exactly sure like the solo

58:38

cups might've had unknown DNA. It seems like

58:40

that actually would be better for Karen. Like

58:42

I can't imagine the situation in which you

58:44

got the solo cups from the

58:46

neighbors collected the blood and it ended up being

58:48

bad for Karen Reed. It's very unlikely that Karen

58:50

Reed, for instance, her DNA is going to be

58:53

in that cup, there might be all sorts of

58:55

random DNA in there. And then you test it

58:57

and you're like, man, got all these potential people

58:59

who maybe were involved with this and their DNA

59:01

is mixed with John's blood, right? Like it would

59:03

be bad if they went into Karen's car and

59:05

took a bunch of red solo cups in the

59:07

back of her car that she had thrown back

59:09

there to use to collect it. Right? Then

59:12

you could kind of understand they're like trying to plant her, you know,

59:15

DNA on it or something. Yeah.

59:17

And somebody in the chat says, well, maybe a local

59:19

pharmacy was open. It was the

59:22

middle of a blizzard at six o'clock in the

59:24

morning. Maybe it was, or maybe

59:26

it wasn't. I mean, Remember

59:28

the snow is still coming down. They, they could

59:30

very well lose that blood. And maybe they're thinking

59:32

is maybe this is contaminated, but maybe we'll be

59:34

able to save something like there could be nothing

59:36

left, but you have to make a decision at

59:39

that moment or you lose the opportunity altogether. We

59:41

see this in all the other cases, John Bonet,

59:43

whatever. They're like, why couldn't they have preserved more

59:45

DNA? Right? Who cares if it's contaminated? Like that

59:47

might be the one trend of evidence that could

59:49

break the case wide open if we have genetic

59:52

genealogy, whatever. Right? They're just thinking preserve

59:54

everything while we still can in the

59:56

midst of a blizzard, things might

59:58

melt. Things might fall. We may. literally lose

1:00:00

this like potential blood in

1:00:02

the middle of snow that was buried until

1:00:05

we snowblowed it or we

1:00:07

blew it. What is it? What's the

1:00:09

past tense of that? Yeah.

1:00:11

And look, it's one of those things where it's very easy

1:00:13

and it, and look, if I was

1:00:15

the defense attorney, I would be doing everything they did with this.

1:00:18

I would be like, so you're telling me

1:00:21

that this is the best evidence you've got. And

1:00:23

you got a snowblower blowing everything all over the

1:00:25

place. And then you go get some solo cups,

1:00:28

probably from the part of the head, the last night, probably

1:00:31

already still had beer in them and you're

1:00:33

scooping up blood and you think

1:00:35

that works for a police investigation. I mean, of course you're

1:00:37

going to say that it's so easy to do, but I

1:00:39

kind of feel like when you sit back and think about

1:00:41

it, like, well, I mean, okay. Not

1:00:44

great. And he, and the officer admitted that

1:00:46

this was not perfect. This is not what

1:00:48

you would do if you were

1:00:50

at the training room and they were training you on

1:00:52

how to secure a scene, but it is

1:00:54

what happened either way. And it

1:00:56

is something that the defense is going to

1:00:58

make hay up. So they take the blood samples to

1:01:01

the station. At this point, officer, like in Gallagher, they

1:01:03

returned to the scene. It's around 9am. Now

1:01:05

they go into the residence through a sliding

1:01:08

door. There were five

1:01:10

or six people there, including the Alberts. This

1:01:12

included Brian Albert, who was a

1:01:15

Boston police officer, as we've told

1:01:17

you before, he is, is someone

1:01:19

that Gallagher knew. He also knew

1:01:21

Brian Higgins, who was the ATF

1:01:23

agent, but he didn't recall him

1:01:25

being there at that time. So

1:01:27

they also talked about the search

1:01:29

warrant and the removal of the

1:01:31

rear tail light of Karen's Lexus.

1:01:33

This occurred around 9.50 that morning.

1:01:37

There's video of this from the Sallie port where the

1:01:39

vehicle was taken. The SUV got

1:01:41

there on January 20, not and stayed there

1:01:43

until February 1st. And the

1:01:45

state police arrived to process it across

1:01:48

examination. In addition to the solo cups and

1:01:51

general complaints about how the investigation was

1:01:53

conducted, which you can expect the

1:01:55

defense noted that Gallagher didn't take any

1:01:58

notes was never interviewed by. lead

1:02:00

investigator or anyone else until April 3rd,

1:02:02

2024. I also noted that Officer Laink,

1:02:06

who took the initial statements from the Alberts,

1:02:08

was friendly with the family. Gallagher

1:02:12

was also asked about getting a search warrant

1:02:14

for the home, which he did not do.

1:02:16

Gallagher said there was no probable cause for

1:02:18

such a warrant and the decision had nothing

1:02:20

to do with Albert being a Boston police

1:02:22

officer. After Gallagher returned to

1:02:24

the station that day, he had a

1:02:26

discussion with the chief about limiting local

1:02:29

officers involvement in the investigation. Since this

1:02:31

was a Boston police officer dead on

1:02:33

another Boston police officer's lawn, and Brian

1:02:35

Albert's brother Kevin was a detective with

1:02:37

the Canton police, this is eventually going

1:02:39

to lead to the state police taking

1:02:41

over this case. Though, as we talked

1:02:43

about earlier, that is not going

1:02:45

to end the problems with the police

1:02:48

investigation. In fact, may make them

1:02:51

worse. The state police investigation is

1:02:54

going to end up being a pretty big problem for

1:02:56

the prosecution, as we'll get to later

1:02:58

on. So next on the sand is Sean Good,

1:03:01

another Canton police sergeant who was

1:03:03

on the scene that day. He

1:03:06

testifies that Kerry Roberts had actually

1:03:08

called in around 5 a.m. that

1:03:10

morning asking if the police had

1:03:12

locked up anyone matching John's description

1:03:15

since his girlfriend was worried about

1:03:17

him. When Good arrived at the

1:03:19

scene, he testified that it was

1:03:21

snowing terribly, something we keep hearing

1:03:24

from everyone, and is absolutely the

1:03:26

case. And he

1:03:28

said that Karen was running around

1:03:30

yelling, is he dead? After

1:03:33

leaving the scene, Karen's

1:03:35

father called and told police he was

1:03:37

afraid that his daughter Karen wanted to

1:03:40

end her life, hence setting up the

1:03:42

section 12 hold. Now

1:03:44

on cross-examination, the defense continue to

1:03:46

press the fact that everyone in

1:03:48

this case knows each other. They

1:03:52

kind of dig into the fact that Good

1:03:54

went to high school with the sister of

1:03:56

state trooper Michael Proctor, who is the

1:03:58

lead in front of the state. investigator and

1:04:02

problematic, as we will know later on

1:04:04

based on his many text messages about

1:04:06

Karen Reed. And

1:04:08

he's also the sister and also

1:04:11

is close to the sister-in-law of

1:04:13

Chris Albert, who was the brother

1:04:15

of Brian Albert, the house where

1:04:18

John O'Keefe was found outside of. And

1:04:20

of course, they also dig into

1:04:23

the fact that Good worked with Kevin

1:04:25

Albert. Now Good did not

1:04:27

hear Karen say that she hit

1:04:29

John. Remember, all he testified to

1:04:31

was that she kept saying, is

1:04:33

he dead? Officer

1:04:36

Good was asked about his report and the

1:04:38

fact that a photo was later added to

1:04:40

the report that was not at the time

1:04:42

of the writing of the report. Good

1:04:45

says that's really not unusual and it's not

1:04:47

unusual. You try to write these reports because

1:04:50

you have lots of reports to write. And

1:04:53

if you process your photos after the fact, think

1:04:55

about your own photos, actually. I

1:04:57

take lots of photos and it takes me

1:04:59

a long time to go process it. We're

1:05:01

organizing your files. You may add it to

1:05:03

the report and that's what happened here. But

1:05:05

the defense again is trying to basically have

1:05:08

Good be part of the conspiracy and adding

1:05:11

things that would frame Karen after

1:05:13

the fact. And this picture is

1:05:15

part of their narrative. Good

1:05:19

is also asked on cross-examination about

1:05:21

a time when Brian Albert's brother

1:05:23

was charged with a hit and

1:05:25

run. This was back in 2009

1:05:28

and after the finding the relevant vehicle

1:05:30

at the very same house,

1:05:33

34 Fairview. This

1:05:35

case was subsequently dismissed. And

1:05:38

when the defense asked the question about

1:05:40

the dismissal, the Commonwealth

1:05:42

objected and this objection was

1:05:44

sustained. So one wonders

1:05:46

how evidence that the police put together a

1:05:49

case against one of the Alberts that was

1:05:51

subsequently dismissed by prosecutors actually

1:05:53

helps read to establish a

1:05:55

police conspiracy here. So

1:05:58

I think we were kind of going down a tangent. here

1:06:01

and but it's not even clear how

1:06:03

this testimony if allowed by the judge

1:06:05

would have helped the narrative that

1:06:08

Karen was framed. Yeah

1:06:11

and there's a couple things about good

1:06:13

testimony that once again if

1:06:16

he's if he's in on the conspiracy you think he would say

1:06:18

that he heard her say that that

1:06:21

she hit him you would think that he would say that

1:06:24

but you don't have that and then you do have

1:06:27

this whole this whole series of questions about

1:06:29

a time that the police put together a

1:06:31

case. The police are not the ones who

1:06:34

dismiss something that's a prosecutor

1:06:36

can be done for any number of

1:06:38

reasons lots

1:06:40

of different reasons and I just go ahead and

1:06:42

tell you for whatever reason in state prosecutions most

1:06:46

of them never never go to trial

1:06:48

even after they're indicted they

1:06:50

go away for whatever reason maybe some prosecutor was

1:06:52

doing this guy a favor because he's cop or

1:06:54

because he's friends with cops no idea but

1:06:57

the police put the case together they didn't bury it

1:06:59

they didn't cover it up they didn't create a conspiracy

1:07:01

about how really was the other guy's fault like

1:07:03

they followed the evidence and they put together

1:07:05

a case and one of the

1:07:08

Albers I think that says something you know

1:07:10

I mean it's a relatively

1:07:12

matter point. I'll say that much yeah

1:07:14

right exactly they didn't they

1:07:16

did not bury it in

1:07:18

a case that would be much easier to bury than

1:07:20

one where a dead guy's on the lawn. And

1:07:23

they looked for the car you would think if the

1:07:26

conspiracy was to let him off you wouldn't even go

1:07:28

look for the car you'd be like hitting runs are

1:07:30

hard man never found the car like they actually found

1:07:32

the car there may be evidence for

1:07:34

it not for it who knows maybe

1:07:36

there was some pretrial deal we've talked about pretrial

1:07:39

deals where if you've not had any other criminal

1:07:41

records before you're kind of like on probation but

1:07:43

then it's especially like expunged it's dismissed there's no

1:07:45

actual real charges if you keep your nose clean

1:07:48

for a certain amount of time I

1:07:50

don't know if that happened here or not but I

1:07:52

would think the conspiracy argument is

1:07:54

stronger if they never went and found the

1:07:56

car but like everyone in the neighborhood knew

1:07:58

that the car was clearly damaged was sitting

1:08:00

at 34 Fairview. No, the police actually went

1:08:02

to go find it. They found it and

1:08:05

they documented it. Yeah, if

1:08:07

a cop had found that car and

1:08:10

you know pulled a ad non-Sayed and

1:08:12

moved it somewhere and dumped it and

1:08:15

then had somebody else lead them to the car

1:08:17

and be like, well, who knows who this is? That

1:08:20

would be pretty powerful. If the defense could show that that

1:08:22

happened, then you'd be like, okay, they've done this before. They

1:08:25

have protected these people before

1:08:28

and now they're doing it again, but that's not what

1:08:30

you see here. So I don't know take

1:08:32

of it what you will and that's all

1:08:34

you can do and that's all the jury can do. Okay,

1:08:37

so next time we're going to

1:08:39

get into Michael Link who was

1:08:41

sort of the most involved

1:08:43

officer in the

1:08:46

investigation. We talked about several officers up to this

1:08:48

point, but he's he's going to be important and

1:08:50

he's gonna talk a lot about his connections to

1:08:52

the Alberts and various things that

1:08:54

happened during the investigation as well as

1:08:56

why we've mentioned this a little bit

1:08:58

with Gallagher, but we're gonna talk some

1:09:00

about search warrants probable cause that kind

1:09:02

of thing in the next episode and

1:09:04

then we're going to start moving into

1:09:07

the people who knew John and were

1:09:09

there the night this happened. We're gonna

1:09:12

get into all those people who ended

1:09:15

up back at the

1:09:17

Albert household, the McCabe's, the

1:09:20

Albert's, the Albert's friends, John,

1:09:23

well, depending on who you believe. All

1:09:26

those folks and what happened that night and really

1:09:28

start to get into this story of how

1:09:32

John ended up in the snow. So basically

1:09:34

if you're thinking about the prosecution's case, they

1:09:37

did their sort of timeline thing where they talked

1:09:39

about the finding of the body and everybody who

1:09:41

was involved in that and the police officers who

1:09:43

were involved in that. Now we're gonna take a

1:09:45

step back. I'm gonna go back 24 hours and

1:09:47

we're gonna start talking about what led up to

1:09:50

the finding of the body and we're gonna hear from

1:09:52

a lot of people who if the defense theory is

1:09:54

correct are either murderers or

1:09:56

accessories to murder a lot

1:09:58

of them pretty much everyone. of them had

1:10:01

to either know what happened or

1:10:03

be directly involved in what happened.

1:10:06

And we'll have fun discussing that with you, though I

1:10:08

will say, as always, if you get

1:10:10

the opportunity to listen to these folks' testimony,

1:10:12

do it. I think so

1:10:15

much, I mean, one reason we have trials the way we do, we

1:10:17

don't rely on written records or, you

1:10:20

know, depositions or affidavits is because

1:10:23

seeing the person talk, listening to what

1:10:25

they say, seeing how they respond to

1:10:27

questions is so important because

1:10:29

people do lie and

1:10:32

you want to know, is this person lying to me or not? Particularly

1:10:35

if you think that person might be involved in the crime.

1:10:37

So watching yourself judge

1:10:39

the credibility for yourself will give you our opinions,

1:10:41

but they're just our opinions and that's all they

1:10:43

are. Okay. I know you

1:10:45

guys already have thoughts about this case. Shoot

1:10:47

us an email, prosecutorspod@gmail.com at prosecutorspod for all

1:10:50

your social media, though at this point I'm

1:10:52

boycotting this case on social media. So

1:10:54

maybe if you reach out there, you won't

1:10:56

hear anything. Thanks to everyone who joined us

1:10:58

again for this case on

1:11:02

our Patreon page. This

1:11:04

is like the third episode of this we recorded this week. We

1:11:06

recorded a bunch this week. We've recorded a

1:11:08

lot. We're trying to get ahead. Yeah. So

1:11:11

we appreciate you guys spending all this time talking

1:11:14

to us and hanging out with us. If you

1:11:16

want to be a part of these live recordings,

1:11:18

join our Patreon and hello to all of those

1:11:20

of you watching this video on YouTube.

1:11:22

Well, Alice, before we sign off for

1:11:25

tonight, I'm tired, so I think we're going to skip questions for

1:11:27

tonight. But before we sign off for tonight, do

1:11:29

you have anything else to say? No,

1:11:31

I think everything you said about being able

1:11:34

to watch it yourself is just important. You

1:11:36

don't have to watch all hundreds of hours of the

1:11:38

trial, but I think it's important,

1:11:40

especially on some of these key cross

1:11:42

examinations where the cross examination is trying

1:11:45

to point to involvement in a conspiracy,

1:11:48

is to see how these kind of

1:11:50

confrontational questions and implications. These are big

1:11:52

implications to put on someone that they're

1:11:55

part of a criminal conspiracy, how

1:11:57

they respond to it, if they get emotional,

1:11:59

if they get... defensive and judge

1:12:03

for yourself what you think is happening. And

1:12:05

also think if you think something is inconsistent

1:12:07

in your mind, like we talked about earlier,

1:12:09

where the police is so incompetent, they're using

1:12:11

solo cops to

1:12:14

being able to organize a multi-agency,

1:12:16

multi, multi dozens of people conspiracy

1:12:18

in order to cover up the

1:12:20

death of a fellow police officer.

1:12:22

Not say it can't happen, but

1:12:24

when there are those inconsistencies, don't

1:12:27

suspend reality. The whole point is

1:12:29

to take your experience

1:12:31

and decide whether this is a

1:12:33

believable real life situation. And if

1:12:35

you have doubts about it, ask

1:12:38

questions and you're going to

1:12:40

maybe ping pong back and forth between witnesses.

1:12:43

But think about what it takes to

1:12:45

be able to get multiple people's story straight.

1:12:47

We covered Robert Wong's story where we concluded

1:12:49

that there were three people in that

1:12:51

house who probably got their story straight when

1:12:54

they spoke to the police and

1:12:56

how difficult it is to keep a secret among

1:12:58

three people. We're not talking about a secret

1:13:00

among three people. We're talking about a pretty complex

1:13:02

coverup that took place almost immediately as soon as

1:13:04

the body was found at 6.30 AM. And

1:13:09

all of these people are having to testify

1:13:11

without the benefit of having seen their other

1:13:14

alleged co-conspirators testify

1:13:17

and how disjointed you

1:13:19

may think that type of conspiracy

1:13:22

testimony would be among dozens of people. And

1:13:24

if you see that, and

1:13:26

if not, how did they pull it off? How

1:13:28

did they pull it off by basically 6.45 AM

1:13:31

among multiple people who were not even on the scene

1:13:33

yet? And I think, you

1:13:35

know, just one other thing on this because I

1:13:39

feel like a lot of people feel

1:13:42

weird about this case and you have an unusual feeling

1:13:44

about this case and we often say, follow your gut.

1:13:46

So if you have an unusual feeling about this case,

1:13:48

don't just ignore that. Think about

1:13:50

why you do, but also think about this. One

1:13:53

problem whenever you have the defense

1:13:55

trying to make out the conspiracy.

1:13:57

We charge conspiracy. It's a crime.

1:14:00

And when we do it, we have

1:14:02

to lay out exactly how the

1:14:04

conspiracy happened, exactly who the participants

1:14:06

were, what the things they did

1:14:10

as part of that conspiracy are, what their

1:14:12

overarching plan was, when they came to an

1:14:14

agreement. We have to prove all that. The

1:14:17

defense is offering a conspiracy. They

1:14:19

don't have to prove anything. They're

1:14:21

just offering sort of the possibility. They're getting

1:14:24

your mind going, imagining like how this could

1:14:26

have gone down with a conspiracy. The thing

1:14:28

I think probably is good to do, particularly

1:14:30

in a case like this, as we said

1:14:32

earlier, the defenses, because they're

1:14:34

doing that, they really are painting a

1:14:37

pretty broad picture here. You

1:14:39

know, they got Katie McLaughlin involved in the conspiracy,

1:14:41

or at least they're offering you the potential that

1:14:43

she is. Sit

1:14:45

down with the evidence and think

1:14:47

about what is the

1:14:49

smallest the conspiracy could

1:14:52

be for it to work. What

1:14:55

are the fewest amount of people possible

1:14:57

for this conspiracy to work? Think about all

1:14:59

the different angles and what the conspiracy has

1:15:02

to do and what it has to explain

1:15:05

for this to work. I think that's a pretty

1:15:07

valuable exercise. If you can get the number down

1:15:09

pretty small, then it's more

1:15:11

likely. Like if you can get it down to one

1:15:13

or two or three people, even

1:15:16

maybe a little bit more than that, then I think

1:15:18

it becomes more and more likely. The smaller you can

1:15:20

get the conspiracy, the better. If it has

1:15:22

to be a big one, if it has to involve

1:15:24

10, 12, 20 people

1:15:26

from all these different agencies, that

1:15:29

is hard to buy. As

1:15:32

we've said before, extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

1:15:34

You're going to need a lot more evidence

1:15:36

than just the police are corrupt and incompetent,

1:15:38

which they may very well be. One

1:15:42

thing about this case is if you live

1:15:44

in Massachusetts, you've lived through a lot of

1:15:46

police corruption and incompetence lately. You

1:15:48

are primed to believe that that could have

1:15:50

happened in this case. I totally get that.

1:15:53

The smaller you can get that conspiracy, the better. Think

1:15:56

about that. I would be interested to hear if you

1:15:58

guys out there have done that. Send

1:16:00

me your best

1:16:03

story of how this went down with

1:16:06

the conspiracy and who's involved. I'll

1:16:08

be happy to share it later on when we get

1:16:10

into theories. One question that just kept coming

1:16:12

to my mind from the very beginning, see if you can

1:16:14

... Maybe you guys have a great answer for this, but

1:16:17

if all of these people, even if you can

1:16:19

get it down to a small, small group to

1:16:21

carry out this pretty complex conspiracy, and I say

1:16:23

complex because it's going to involve at least more

1:16:25

than one agency and at least more than only

1:16:28

members, right? Why

1:16:30

they would place the body in

1:16:33

the yard of a police

1:16:35

officer. You

1:16:37

get to plan your conspiracy from the beginning. There

1:16:40

are lots of dump sites in general, and

1:16:42

it makes it really difficult to run

1:16:45

away from involvement in something when it's

1:16:47

pretty close to your house. I

1:16:50

mean, if they just dumped him five more feet to

1:16:52

the left, he'd have been in somebody else's yard. I

1:16:54

mean, he was literally right on the property line. Or

1:16:56

across the street. Right. The

1:16:58

thing about the conspiracy is you get to plan the parts

1:17:00

of it, including where the body ends

1:17:03

up. Why

1:17:05

did these conspirators who investigate crimes and

1:17:07

are part of, this is what they

1:17:10

do is investigate crimes, why would they

1:17:12

choose this to be the dump spot?

1:17:15

This has befuddled me in the conspiracy

1:17:17

narrative from the very beginning. Maybe

1:17:19

you have a good answer for it, but that's something to think

1:17:21

about as well. Like you said,

1:17:23

there are neighbors close enough to lend the

1:17:25

police officers solo cups. Why not

1:17:28

their neighbor? Why not the neighbor's yard? Why

1:17:30

not across the street? Why not totally

1:17:32

somewhere else? Because it was snowing too hard.

1:17:36

Why even have them in your yard at all? Some

1:17:39

things to think about. Lay them in the

1:17:41

street. Maybe he gets run over by a snowplow.

1:17:43

Yeah, that is hard to know who was at

1:17:45

fault. Yeah, but now

1:17:47

we're questioning the men in the arena

1:17:49

again. Maybe the conspirators just didn't come

1:17:51

up with very good ideas. That

1:17:53

was the best they could come up with in the

1:17:55

moment. It's like the solo cups because we're interested in

1:17:58

the solo cups and the same thing. Okay, guys. back

1:18:00

next time. Can't wait to discuss this case

1:18:03

with you some more. Who knows, by the

1:18:05

time you're hearing this, maybe at least the

1:18:07

prosecution will finish their case. Hope

1:18:09

springs eternal. Who can say? And

1:18:12

you know, or maybe the case will be over

1:18:14

and we'll look like idiots because the FBI will

1:18:16

have raided the courthouse and arrested everyone. That could

1:18:18

happen. Who knows? Then we'll just, we'll just bury

1:18:21

these episodes and the only people will even know

1:18:23

they happen. We'll be our patrons. So everybody keep

1:18:25

quiet. We're going to conspire together to make sure

1:18:27

that no one ever knows we did these episodes

1:18:29

if it turns out bad. All right, but

1:18:32

we'll be back next time. But until then,

1:18:34

I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And

1:18:37

we are the prosecutors. No,

1:18:59

I mean, it's been better. And I get a little

1:19:01

bit confused because I definitely zone out while I'm watching.

1:19:03

Well, that's easy to zone out. Watching

1:19:06

at 1.5 speed helps some of

1:19:09

that. But, but you know what? It was funny

1:19:11

because I forgot I was listening at a

1:19:13

fast speed. And at one point I was like,

1:19:15

why is Flamati speaking so weirdly?

1:19:17

I was like, oh, right.

1:19:19

Right. Because I have it

1:19:22

on high speed. Okay. Who's

1:19:24

the last person we talked

1:19:26

to? Um,

1:19:28

I talked about I think that all right.

1:19:32

We talked about that. Yeah. Yeah.

1:19:35

Because he's the first person who says she said I hit him. Yeah.

1:20:34

I couldn't see anything I was like stop doing it

1:20:36

this way this video is terrible. They didn't have to

1:20:38

do that. No they didn't. Because they didn't even compare

1:20:41

them it was like they looked at both at different

1:20:43

times. I know. It's like they're asking

1:20:45

you to look and see things. She's like I can't

1:20:47

see anything because there's only half the screen. Because it's

1:20:49

half the screen. We're

1:20:52

the same person. I know I just. It's

1:21:34

summertime and with Pluto TV Summer of

1:21:37

Cinema the streaming is easy. Stream hundreds

1:21:39

of free movies on all your favorite

1:21:41

devices all summer long. Chill out poolside

1:21:43

with Mission Impossible and Transformers. Or stay

1:21:45

cool inside watching Indiana Jones and the

1:21:47

Raiders of the Lost Ark. Titanic or

1:21:49

the Wolf of Wall Street. No

1:21:52

matter your vibe download the Pluto TV app

1:21:54

to spend summer doing what you love. Watching

1:21:57

endless movies. Tell me that's not the deal of the

1:21:59

summer. Summer of Cinema on Pluto TV.

1:22:02

Stream now, pay never. Throw

1:22:04

the best birthday party ever that your

1:22:07

child will always talk about. Big Air

1:22:09

Trampoline Park inside Fieldhouse USA at the

1:22:11

Polaris Mall can do just that. Award-winning

1:22:13

birthday party packages start at just $300.

1:22:16

And all birthday parties include pizza, drinks,

1:22:18

a party room with a party host,

1:22:21

grip socks, printed invitations, and all 40

1:22:23

attractions at Big Air Trampoline Park. It's

1:22:25

a birthday party you and your kids will never

1:22:27

forget. Book your party today.

1:22:29

Big Air Columbus, where the

1:22:31

fun never ends. Visit bigairusa.com/Columbus

1:22:33

for details. Welcome to

1:22:36

another round of Drawing Board or

1:22:38

Miro Board. Today, we talk

1:22:40

brainstorms with UX designer, Brian. Let's

1:22:42

go. First question. You thought you'd

1:22:45

see everyone's idea in the team brainstorm, but

1:22:47

you've got a grand total of one.

1:22:49

Drawing Board or Miro Board? Drawing Board. In

1:22:51

Miro, the team can add ideas now or

1:22:53

later. And with privacy mode, we can keep

1:22:55

them anonymous until they're good to share.

1:22:57

Correct. Next, you need

1:23:00

the best way to explain your idea,

1:23:02

but all you have is a few

1:23:04

sticky notes. Drawing Board or Miro Board?

1:23:06

Drawing Board. In Miro, I could record

1:23:08

videos, add text, images, links, and digital

1:23:10

sticky notes, of course. Right again. Now,

1:23:12

you're looking for a past idea you

1:23:14

thought was just genius. Only you could

1:23:16

find, oh, there it is. Drawing Board

1:23:18

or Miro? All our finished and unfinished

1:23:20

work lives in one place. And

1:23:23

he's won. For a limited time, visit

1:23:25

miro.com/brainstorm now and get a free business

1:23:27

plan trial to unlock even

1:23:29

more brainstorming tools like private

1:23:32

mode and voting. That's miro.com/brainstorm

1:23:34

now.