0:02

I'm Brett. And

0:08

I'm Alice. And we are

0:10

the Prosecutors. Today

0:22

on The Prosecutors, famed

0:25

profiler Julia Cowley joins us to

0:27

discuss the Robert One case. Hello

1:00

everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors.

1:03

I'm Brett and I'm joined

1:06

as always by my mind

1:08

hunting co-host Alice. Hi

1:11

Brett. I wish that descriptor was for me,

1:13

but I think we all know who the

1:15

real mind hunter is. And thank

1:18

goodness it's not me. It is

1:20

a former special agent FBI

1:22

agent, Julia Cowley, one of

1:25

the best profilers and host

1:27

of the consult podcast. If

1:29

y'all aren't listening to it, you are missing out. She

1:33

is here today to share

1:35

her experience and insights on

1:37

one of the most mind boggling cases I think we have covered.

1:40

Julia, thank you so much for being here with us. Thank

1:43

you for having me again. I've really

1:46

been looking forward to talking to both of you

1:48

because I want to hear your thoughts as well.

1:51

Yeah, this worked out really well. We didn't

1:53

know that you were also covering this case

1:55

on your show and it's just fantastic that

1:58

these episodes are coming out at the same time. Go get

2:00

a really interesting. Both.

2:02

Sides: As if you listen to have an

2:04

investigative side with Julia in the listen to

2:07

the legal side of in that there's so

2:09

many angles to this case. It's.

2:11

For a bottomless how long you could talk about

2:13

this if he wanted to. And you know

2:15

it's it's it's a great point bread

2:17

and I hope maybe with the documentary

2:20

kind of all these different angles were

2:22

looking at and there are not enough

2:24

angles because obviously this is still no

2:26

one is held accountable yet for Roberts

2:28

desk and said they're still an opportunity

2:30

to quote unquote, solve this case, bring

2:32

justice to robber and his loved ones.

2:34

So maybe with all this pressure someone

2:36

will speak up or someone has spoken

2:38

and that information will finally get to

2:41

the police. And forgot to ask. Is Joey

2:43

just a start off and everybody knows that

2:45

he does this case. By now you've even

2:47

a listened or seedless in the council got

2:49

the background. What I'm really interested know from

2:51

your perspective because Allison I you know the

2:53

as you said we're be no. Poor.

2:56

Imitation. Profilers:

2:59

That, but we often are doing that kind of

3:01

stuff and we talk about these cases in one

3:03

of the things that. Came up in

3:05

this case and comes up in a lot of

3:08

cases. Now it has Be interested in your thoughts

3:10

both in general and specifically here. And.

3:12

That's when you have a case where

3:14

there is an initial claim of an

3:16

intruder the intruder is involved in. Obviously

3:19

that is that is the initial claim

3:21

in this case For minimum one call

3:23

someone has come in and killed. Someone.

3:26

In the house had you look at those

3:28

claims and in this case in particular, what

3:30

were you looking for when you are trying

3:33

to decide whether or not this seems like

3:35

an intruder case or not? The. First

3:37

thing I looked for was the

3:39

evidence of an intruder because as

3:41

you know, Something. Like

3:43

this something is Marty in their own

3:46

home. Typically it's not an intruder. So

3:48

what? What was the evidence? And I

3:50

think a big misconception in this case.

3:53

Is that the Metropolitan Police Department

3:56

didn't do a thorough job or

3:58

a good job processing. The crime

4:00

scene. I think that's a little bit

4:02

of a misconception because. Of

4:04

the use of the Ashley's reagents.

4:07

But. If you look

4:10

at what they did they went in there

4:12

they when and when a fine tooth comb.

4:14

Immediately they were looking for signs of an

4:16

intruder. They were looking on the sand say

4:19

we're looking at the pollen in the dust

4:21

and signs that somebody had scale back had

4:23

some and you can do it. It's not

4:25

impossible to do by it would require. A

4:28

lot of effort. and there should

4:30

be signs of that effort. And

4:32

then of course looking at this

4:34

story makes that's. What? Would

4:36

have to happen for it to be true.

4:39

So looking at it as if it were

4:41

true, but in terms of the processing of

4:43

the scene. They. Spent. Days.

4:46

And weeks in there. And.

4:49

Really did a very thorough job and

4:51

he ashley's reagent was just like a

4:54

last resort. I don't understand why they

4:56

chose to use that rather than you

4:58

something like luminol but luminol as an

5:00

onset, a last resort. But you don't

5:03

use luminol until you process everything and

5:05

you search for blood. and you've used

5:07

a really good white light to search

5:10

first and all nooks and crannies and

5:12

and floorboards and baseboards and the walls.

5:14

even. You'd go over all that first

5:17

and then you start using chemicals. So.

5:19

That was at the end of. Everything. And so.

5:23

Just. The fact that they had done

5:25

such a thorough job at processing the

5:27

crime scene and there was just no

5:29

evidence that someone else had been in

5:31

there? I think that's where I started

5:34

looking. How significant as

5:36

a to you the idea that they

5:38

the killer would not bring their own

5:40

weapon is that we always say that

5:42

seems unusual The Us is it unusual

5:44

or do you see that more cases

5:46

and people might expect. Is don't see

5:49

that. Let me see that in cases

5:51

where it's not necessarily planned. To.

5:53

Kill Somebody. So if if someone's

5:56

grabbing a weapon from the hum,

5:58

typically you're thinking this. Like we

6:00

won A plan to. Ps: it's planned. You're

6:03

You're gonna bring a lap and you're gonna

6:05

bring gloves you're gonna bring. You may be

6:07

wear a mask and and hide your identity.

6:09

So it would be unusual for something that

6:12

would be planned and in the timing would

6:14

be unusual. Be unusual to go in if

6:16

if the intent was to burglarize a home.

6:19

That's. Not bad time you would necessarily got

6:21

when you know people are home. So.

6:24

I mean, that's a little bit unusual as well. And.

6:27

Then of course I mean adding to that

6:29

hypothetical of what you see as regular. Obviously

6:32

the murder happened on the second floor and

6:34

a lot of valuables were passed along the

6:36

way that the suppose the murder weapon was

6:39

from the first floor. so in my mind

6:41

it would be the killer came into kill

6:43

which is why they picked up the knife

6:45

but because they picked up know valuables along

6:48

the way. know t these know wallets, no

6:50

phone, no laptops. I mean is is that

6:52

when you first see that sent a fax.

6:55

What's the most stark fact that jumps

6:57

out at you and weird even begin

6:59

your investigation to break down that seen,

7:02

well I think what jumps out at

7:04

me as the door time. First, who's

7:06

gonna go in in the door Time

7:08

goes off and they're still self motivated

7:11

to continue to go. Go up the

7:13

stairs past Dylan's room, go into the

7:15

next room, and in stabbing kill somebody.

7:17

That That's a huge risk. that somebody

7:20

that's not familiar with the home. So

7:22

so that. Jumped out at me

7:24

and then of course. Like as

7:26

you point out alice not taking anything

7:29

even if it's somebody goes and we

7:31

seen this so many times somebody his

7:33

intention is to murder or it's intention

7:35

is to commit sexual murder. Often times

7:38

they do take things they're opportunity to,

7:40

they grab things on the way how

7:42

we see that all the time in

7:44

cases and the fact that nothing at

7:47

all is taken is unusual. and

7:49

so so that there's so many factors

7:52

in here that just jump out as

7:54

just being seen i really did and

7:56

we all try to approach it as

7:58

let's just approach It was a totally clean

8:01

slate. Let's not just jump to

8:03

the conclusion that, I don't want

8:05

to say everyone's jumped to conclusions. I

8:07

mean, this has been

8:09

looked at very thoroughly by brilliant

8:11

people, but let's not just jump

8:13

on and just say

8:16

what everybody else has said. Let's really

8:18

look at this with an open mind.

8:20

It's really important. That's how I started

8:22

our latest episode because, as you know,

8:24

we had Glenn Kirchner on who prosecuted

8:26

the case. And he

8:29

prosecuted the three residents

8:31

of Slawn Street for obstruction of justice

8:33

and tampering with evidence. And he has

8:36

a very strong opinion. And

8:39

our service as FBI profilers

8:42

is to law enforcement and

8:44

to prosecutors. And so we

8:46

are obtaining information from

8:48

those entities. We don't work for the defense. And

8:51

oftentimes, investigators have

8:53

very strong opinions and they have their own

8:56

theories and prosecutors have the same way. And

8:58

we really just have to sort through that

9:01

and not get tainted by that. And so that's

9:03

hard to do in a case like this when

9:05

so many people have theories. So we really did

9:07

try to approach it with an open mind. And

9:09

all we just kept coming back to is this

9:12

makes no sense. And I'm not above

9:14

an intruder theory. I

9:17

am not. I know

9:19

that it can happen. And when it

9:21

makes sense, that will be my

9:23

conclusion. But I just

9:26

saw nothing. And

9:28

there was just no and really it says

9:30

you guys know my background's forensics. That there

9:33

is no forensic evidence to indicate

9:35

that there was an intruder that

9:37

entered that house. And again, they did a

9:39

very, very thorough job. I trust the investigators

9:41

that were there at that scene. The minute

9:43

these guys were saying there was an intruder,

9:45

those detectives and those crime

9:47

scene investigators were looking for all

9:49

those signs, those telltale signs immediately.

9:52

And they weren't there. I

9:55

mean, kind of along those lines, I don't

9:57

think we explored this question in our episodes.

10:00

But as a profiler, what do you make

10:02

of the fact that the killing, at least what

10:04

it appeared to be, was by knife

10:06

stabbing in the chest specifically,

10:09

rather than, say, strangulation, gun,

10:12

any other way you may be able to

10:14

kill someone? Again, that's assuming, at

10:16

the very least, we know there are stab wounds. There

10:18

may be other methods of death. But I'm curious to

10:20

think, whether it's an intruder or another person, what

10:23

that says to you about the type of

10:25

person who's able to commit this very close

10:27

personal type of crime? I think there's sort

10:29

of levels. And in my mind, I kind

10:32

of break it into levels where it's something

10:34

like a beating and

10:36

a strangulation is the most personal.

10:39

And then a stabbing is a little

10:42

less personal. But it does take

10:44

a particular type of person, somebody

10:46

who is comfortable with using a

10:49

knife. I wouldn't be. I

10:52

wouldn't. That would not be my weapon of choice. And

10:54

then you have a gun, which becomes a little even

10:57

less personal. You don't have to put your hands

10:59

on anybody. You can do it from a distance.

11:01

You don't have to get close to them. So

11:04

I kind of put it into those categories.

11:06

That's just how my mind works. Okay, let's

11:08

categorize how this is a little bit more

11:10

personal. In this particular case,

11:13

though, while

11:16

using an edged weapon

11:19

is more personal, the way

11:21

it was used came across

11:23

as very impersonal. Almost

11:26

there, there wasn't much of a struggle in

11:29

this guy. I saw no evidence of

11:31

a struggle. What's so, which was again,

11:34

unusual, no evidence of movement

11:36

by the victim. And I

11:39

looked for it, but

11:41

I, and I think that was the one thing everyone

11:43

could agree on that these wounds were extremely

11:46

similar to one another, which

11:48

is very unusual. Yeah,

11:51

I think that I think there's this misconception

11:53

out there that you guys,

11:56

it's almost like you have a

11:58

seance. And

12:00

that's how you figure out these

12:03

behavioral profiles and profiles of the crime. But

12:05

you, and I think everybody in your unit,

12:07

to be fair, but you in particular, as

12:09

you mentioned, you have a background in forensics.

12:12

So I know for you, those kinds of things,

12:14

like you're just talking about the evidence, the ME's

12:17

report have a huge

12:19

bearing on how you go about thinking

12:22

about the case, and you've

12:24

raised one of the most

12:26

striking parts of this case. Even

12:28

if you didn't have this, it'd still be a

12:30

striking case. But the

12:33

way the stab wounds, I mean, just

12:36

their dimensions and how deep they are

12:38

is important. The angle is

12:40

important. The fact that

12:42

there's no sign of struggle is important.

12:45

What did, what did you, when you saw

12:47

that, what was your first thought? When you

12:49

saw the way that the stab wounds are

12:51

described in the medical report, what was

12:53

your initial thought? And it's

12:55

not just the medical reports, other

12:57

renowned experts that are looking at

13:00

these and saying that these are

13:02

all very identical, symmetrical, similar

13:04

angles, no movements. Well, I certainly

13:06

thought he didn't move. There's

13:08

no movement. And the offender's not moving

13:11

around a lot. This is not a

13:13

fight. This is not somebody who got

13:15

stabbed and jerked and then two more

13:17

stab wounds. I could

13:19

understand having two similar

13:21

stab wounds. You

13:24

have the one that causes death, and then

13:26

you have two other ones that are inflicted

13:28

when he can no longer move. But

13:31

I can't understand having the three

13:34

without having

13:36

some explanation for why he

13:39

couldn't react at all. And, and there

13:41

are some things I can get beyond

13:44

the blood. I can get

13:46

beyond the lack of defensive wounds. I've

13:49

seen cases where there are stabbings

13:51

and there aren't defensive wounds. Now,

13:53

the more Violent

13:56

the interaction is and the more

13:58

stab. That's

14:00

the victim has a more likely they

14:02

are you have defensive wounds that if

14:05

somebody stabbed in it's and. Their.

14:07

Unsuspecting. You might not have.

14:09

Defensive wounds on the hands. He may not have blood

14:11

on their hands. Or what's

14:13

interesting is, according to Job

14:16

Ross himself. The

14:18

you know, the last stab wounds to

14:20

stab wound to chests guess he says.

14:22

That. He pulled a knife out of

14:25

robbers chests. So. A can't

14:27

even be a circumstance where the first stab

14:29

wound is the one of the chairs severs

14:31

the A ordered and he you know.is so

14:33

fast so quickly. That. The other

14:35

two, he doesn't even move. The.

14:38

You'd have to think he stabbed in the stomach. Doesn't

14:40

wake up, doesn't move, nothing stabbed again and

14:42

then stabbed in the chest and and just

14:45

makes no movement and I can't get. I

14:47

mean I hate to hop on this topic

14:49

of i can't get past that watches as

14:51

the other stuff. Okay in a weird. The.

14:54

Blood is still weird to me. Your.

14:56

Units are a little bit about that the couple

14:58

months ago. But. The stab wounds

15:00

Man the stab wounds just. That

15:02

baggage me I could have went for forever. It

15:05

as I am too. And in not

15:07

only that, The

15:09

Negative Toxicology. Is.

15:12

Mind boggling to me and.

15:15

That. I was a toxicologist that's

15:17

my background so we're looking at

15:20

the results and seems he didn't

15:22

medical examiner's office would they did

15:24

with the screening test. And

15:26

I doing. Confirmatory it has a

15:29

just you're a regular screen and in

15:31

your typical types of drugs of

15:33

abuse or not found in then of

15:35

course there are other tennessee consists

15:37

sickly look for certain types of drugs

15:40

which. We learned. Several.

15:43

Tests were done, And

15:45

they were not sound. A

15:48

certain and to date rape drugs. We

15:50

couldn't confirm whether or not ketamine had

15:52

been tested for. But.

15:55

I believe ketamine couldn't the in would have

15:57

shown up if they had done and more

15:59

confirmatory. Now there's a

16:01

debate about sex and or coleen. And.

16:05

There's the defense motion that says

16:07

wow, There's. Data

16:09

and test for sex and are

16:11

call because it breaks down by

16:13

yet the defense puts forests well.

16:15

Here's an example that that the

16:17

very same toxicologist to tested robbers

16:19

fled from the F B I

16:21

did a test and another case

16:23

and she found success or coleen

16:25

in a victim but that was

16:27

down on urine. So. My

16:30

question would be okay. what are

16:32

the study's about successful coleen breaking

16:34

down in blood vs. urine and

16:36

then if you look at Roberts.

16:39

That mount a year and he had

16:41

He had thirty five milliliters of urine

16:43

when he was autopsy. That is not

16:45

very much. So did they past year

16:47

and and they don't have any more.

16:49

The defense motion indicates they're still year

16:52

and last. I don't know if that's

16:54

true but the it these are all

16:56

questions like the defensive. they have a

16:58

very good defense to good. Defense team

17:00

is Defense attorneys were well known in

17:02

Washington D C. My colleague Season worked

17:04

with some of them when they were

17:07

prosecutors and that they did. They did

17:09

a very good job. They brought at

17:11

good points but. Like. Okay,

17:13

well it's sectional Coli react differently

17:15

in blood vs your and things

17:17

like that. These are questions but

17:19

this was one of the suspected

17:21

drug that was brought up as

17:23

a potential a paralytic. But.

17:27

I have no explanation. For.

17:30

Roberts lack of move in either either.

17:32

He was. Somehow.

17:34

Drugs or near

17:37

death. As

17:39

though foot and move but a

17:41

I think there's indications that he

17:43

was still alive when he was

17:45

stabbed but near dance potentially. Self:

17:48

of course you are toxicologists What have

17:50

you done this? An incredible of background

17:52

that you have but with a toxicologist

17:55

background that you have would my more

17:57

sp By the way I'm very around

17:59

and. Many many years bad. I interview

18:01

on a daily and it am. Yeah and

18:04

and know you've looked at the past college

18:06

reports and screens. in this case were there

18:08

any. Obviously, you can't

18:10

test for everything where they didn't test

18:13

for everything here. Were there any potential?

18:15

a paralytic, some other type of drug

18:17

that could have rendered him, you know,

18:19

unable to respond to the stab wounds.

18:22

In. Looking at the screen that we're done that we're

18:24

not has to for that jump out at you based

18:26

on. Drugs. He's seen used in.

18:28

The past one of them of course the in the

18:31

Cessna calling that we just talked about. Have you ever

18:33

seen that in another case? Was there another trust that

18:35

you see you know at this is shown up in

18:37

another one of my cases that did render someone. Unable.

18:40

To move unable to respond. what have you

18:42

that wasn't. Part of his screen.

18:45

Know nothing that I say.

18:47

I know they tested for

18:50

G H B. Bro

18:52

hip now would have shown up near just

18:54

candid am just thinking of date rape drug

18:56

that they might have had access to. I

18:58

have no knowledge that they had access to

19:00

this boat, just. thinking. Okay, what

19:02

could potentially have been used sectional

19:05

coleen does seem kind of far

19:07

fetched to me, but can you

19:09

explain that? Because. They at it

19:11

a like i feel as theory. It is

19:14

a popular theory because it is a drug

19:16

that that has been used to poison people

19:18

before and the cases that I'm semi I

19:20

never had a case where. There

19:23

was a hacksaw. Coli poisoning. I actually

19:25

just I think in my career

19:27

as a toxicologist, I had one

19:29

case of poisoning. And. It

19:31

was antifreeze by it, easier if your medical

19:33

personnel you probably get a hold of it

19:35

but. None of

19:37

these individuals that that I know of

19:40

had any kind of medical background or

19:42

access to these. potentially they did by

19:44

it. I'm not aware of it, I

19:46

just think it would be harder to

19:48

get a hold of then you more

19:50

typical. Types. Of.

19:53

Drugs that you would use for to

19:55

for intoxication or for date rape or

19:57

things like that. I

20:00

just don't know and maybe I misheard you.

20:02

but I thought you said if they tested

20:04

for ketamine they probably would have found it.

20:07

What makes you think that what it is

20:09

I've around. Oh, because ketamine

20:11

can be used for as a date

20:13

rape drug and it's a drug of

20:16

abuse and I have found it before

20:18

in. Drug

20:20

tested I did years ago.

20:22

It's it's it's it's a

20:24

tranquilizer and it is used

20:26

as a drug abuse. As

20:28

well. So. I thought that could

20:31

potentially be one, but I think. Kirschner

20:33

indicated that had been tested. For it

20:35

was negative. yeah that's that's what I've heard

20:37

from him as well on the you know

20:39

a couple things on the fuck some ago

20:41

and it's funny because when we first talked

20:43

to people about this case. Doctors.

20:46

And others they're all like area back when

20:48

he could go anywhere was this know move

20:50

grass guards. you know if if he had

20:52

any access to a possible at all? No

20:54

big deal we talked about on the on

20:56

the episode and we had a lot of

20:58

people obviously listen, her doctors, nurses and there

21:00

are like oh no no no huge that

21:02

did Strictly controlled and it's so dangerous than

21:04

there's no way. wouldn't bet on the grass

21:06

garden. And. I don't know. Obviously things

21:08

have changed a lot less twenty years as is

21:10

funny trying to. Trying. To nail that

21:13

question down of how hard exactly would this

21:15

be because obviously anna of you guys gonna

21:17

this little bit. Michael. Price.

21:20

A gusto Prices brother. Was.

21:23

Training to be a phlebotomist. the for bottom

21:25

of the though this and draws blood and

21:27

and i guess was in turning in a

21:29

hospital times without was he get a lot

21:31

back art and grabbed the if somebody needed

21:33

some. Fit for whatever reason he

21:35

get, he grabbed some. The thing about

21:38

it, my understanding from the drug is.

21:40

He. Would have been. Incredibly reckless

21:43

to try and use it on Robert

21:45

because it is so dangerous if you

21:47

don't know what you're doing. It.

21:50

So easy to give someone too much.

21:52

You. Know if they were actually trying to

21:54

murder him? Doing that would have

21:56

the i mean obviously none of them are doctors.

21:59

So. They. Nestle know that maybe they just

22:01

thought our we can do this and he'll

22:03

be paralyzed and whatever happens happens and he

22:06

won't remember anything even apparently he would. But.

22:08

Once. Again that initially know that is frustrating. Had

22:10

to answer a question like as hanging out there

22:12

is you just feel like it should be easy

22:14

to answer but it's not the other thing that

22:16

doesn't seem to be that answer. Is

22:19

that goes along with this is the number a puncture

22:21

wounds that are unaccounted for So. You. Know

22:23

I've heard bland say. Oh. Well

22:25

you know they can account for a couple of

22:27

on, but the vast majority they couldn't But then

22:30

if you read the opinion that the judge handed

22:32

down. She. Accounts for the vast majority

22:34

of them through some sort of medical intervention. not

22:36

all of them, but the vast majority of them.

22:38

Then if you go back and you look at

22:40

the testimony, it seems like most the doctors nearby

22:42

also testified couldn't really. Rule. Out a

22:44

rule in. Most. Of the puncture

22:47

wounds and when you look at they

22:49

record what were your thoughts on the

22:51

punctuates I can you identify a puncture

22:53

wound that could have been the way

22:55

this was administered. A

22:58

day I'll let to me like medical

23:00

intervention. They're all places. Commonly

23:02

use a tactile. an emergency room

23:05

nurse about this and said that

23:07

this comment that like he said

23:09

talking with Glenn. He. Said

23:11

only one puncture wound could be accounted for.

23:14

And. Then. That. She said.

23:16

Bread that looking at the opinion there

23:19

are a few more. So.

23:21

I was wondering okay when somebody would administer

23:23

a drug like this, where would they have

23:26

been administered it with exit you have been

23:28

and a secret place they would is administered.

23:30

It says it a punch him and wouldn't

23:32

be as it ends at any point in

23:34

time. Like you know let's say they didn't

23:36

intend to kill Robert Robert wakes up he

23:38

says listen some my army now see the

23:40

lead might wanna try to put it somewhere

23:42

where where it wouldn't be notice that was

23:44

one of them questions I had China go

23:47

see this but. I think

23:49

where I came down to as I

23:51

don't think it was administered with a

23:53

needle, I think it's he was drugs

23:55

he ingested it with water and the

23:57

late when they eat they talk about

23:59

sit down. Around drinking water and in

24:01

that was the conclusion I. Lean.

24:04

Toward. But. I don't

24:06

rule out that the the reason why

24:09

rule out. The. Evidence of

24:11

the injection is there's no evidence

24:13

found. And we go back

24:15

in. The. Had so little

24:17

time really to hide things. clean thing

24:20

fab. They really didn't have much time

24:22

even if he just even if we're

24:24

very generous with the time, he didn't

24:26

have a lot of time and. Going

24:29

back to how thorough. The. Search

24:32

was A and they did go

24:34

up and down the alley search

24:36

searching the dumpsters and garbage cans.

24:39

That was all done. Nothing was

24:41

found so I lean toward potentially

24:44

huge ingesting something. When he

24:46

first got there. That. Was given

24:48

to him and then. The.

24:51

Other theory is that something happened and

24:53

he was near death and they stabbed

24:55

him at that point. but that could

24:57

be because he ingested some. but I

24:59

I know my other colleagues on our

25:01

show we. They're convinced he.

25:04

Ingested something her. Was drugged.

25:07

And. And I'd a deal with.

25:09

This is why you need to be on

25:12

our show all the time. Because we've already

25:14

spent half the time talking about Robber and

25:16

I really want to hear your thoughts on

25:18

the three men's additional testimonies you know, interview

25:20

But one really quick question on that In

25:22

your experience, if it's ketamine, is ketamine and

25:25

adjustable or is it. It. And ingest

25:27

of or an injectable. I. Did

25:29

you drink it? You drink it. Okay, it. would

25:31

it be able to work fast enough because of

25:33

what you just mentioned. Incredibly short timeline. That I'm

25:36

not sure how fast it would work, but. It

25:38

could I not the I think it probably works

25:40

fairly clearly. slipknot a time frame that he would

25:42

have been there but I I don't know exactly

25:44

how long until the effects were to take place.

25:47

Okay and again I want to come back to

25:49

discuss the still so much I want to talk

25:51

about of mouth guard about the way he was

25:53

on top of this is all the things but

25:55

you know the first time we hear from these

25:58

guys is the nine one one call. Then

26:00

a little bit of time talking about

26:02

the Nine One One Call and a

26:04

lot happens in that Nine One One

26:06

Call. A lot lot about ups and

26:08

downs and a lot of interesting word

26:10

choices all the way to be. Appearance

26:12

at the First Paramedic I assume you've

26:14

listened to that Nine One One call.

26:16

What are the first kind of impressions

26:18

you get when you hear Victors voice

26:20

of here On this Nine One One

26:22

Call. I'm very conscious when I chat.

26:24

try to judge someone's behavior on a

26:26

call like that because he saw the

26:29

oh, they're They're Too. Upset they're

26:31

faking or and they don't

26:33

show enough emotion, Everybody reacts

26:35

differently. the trauma to stress.

26:37

There's no. One

26:39

verified reaction. So.

26:42

I'm very careful. I listened

26:44

to the car. I hear somebody

26:46

who sounds genuinely traumatized, genuinely upset.

26:48

That's what I hear. I've heard

26:50

other people say he sounds like

26:52

he's the best actor in the

26:54

world so I don't want to

26:56

put too much weight on that's

26:58

a really listen to what his

27:00

words or what he saying what

27:02

is facts but the facts are

27:04

and compare those. Most. That's

27:07

how I do it. I'd also silicate

27:09

the behavior and it's it is hard

27:11

for it is hard. I just I

27:14

guess knowing behaviors. The. Way

27:16

that I know waited and having misinterpreted

27:18

it for for I'm very cautious about

27:20

it and I'm also cautious about people

27:22

say oh i need help or of

27:24

we need help or I need an

27:26

ambulance like. Some. People put

27:28

a lot of way into somebody calling

27:31

up and think I need help vs.

27:33

my. Partner. Here needs help. It

27:35

so I don't put a lot of weight

27:37

into that his I think that can also

27:39

be misinterpreted by it. I

27:42

listened that Nine One One call probably

27:44

a hundred times over the years at

27:46

a certain just a backup little bit.

27:48

My colleague on the console, Angela Sir,

27:50

Sir She was a F B I

27:52

agent and the Washington Field Office and

27:54

she was part of the Evidence response

27:56

team that went in to Fifteen Oh

27:58

Nine Swan Street. The process

28:00

it following the Metropolitan Police

28:02

Department says she was always

28:04

fascinated with the case. Him in

28:07

processed. A Crime scene and we were

28:09

in training together at the Hero Analysis unit and

28:11

she brought it up to me and it was

28:13

really of it was about the time that this

28:15

was and trial. And. She's

28:17

like that the strangest case. And so we've been

28:19

talking. About this case for years. And

28:22

I have been reading everything. and

28:24

I have followed the Who Murdered

28:26

Robert Won website that is just

28:29

an extraordinary compilation and case materials

28:31

and writing and articles on the

28:33

case. So listening to her name

28:36

among call hundreds of times are

28:38

probably not a hundred, but a

28:41

lot. And. I. Zero

28:43

in on the very. Beginning of

28:45

the call where he says. Somebody's.

28:48

And stably think somebody has been stabbed, somebody is

28:50

in and sat in the stomach. That's the first

28:52

thing many such as. And then

28:54

if you listen to their interviews the interview

28:56

that both Joe and Victor give their it

28:59

their consistent They say they wake up the

29:01

here at least Joe here's the time at

29:03

some point doesn't have a chance to fall

29:05

back asleep and then they hear. The.

29:08

Screams The Grants The breathy screams, The

29:10

breathy God grant something like that. It's

29:12

just. you know what I can. it's

29:14

of from. It wasn't really a screen,

29:16

but it was some kind of grunting

29:18

sound enough. They both

29:20

get out a run down the

29:23

stairs and before they go into

29:25

them before even Jojo says this

29:27

in his interview before even touch

29:30

Robert I tell Victor is. Screaming.

29:33

At this point, go back upstairs and

29:35

call Nine One One. Is

29:37

they both tell the story? There's no

29:39

conversation between Am there's nothing. There's no

29:41

exchange of information. Victor runs back upstairs.

29:44

He gets on the phone and nine

29:46

One one operator. The first thing he

29:48

tells the Nine One One operator is

29:50

that somebody than students. But.

29:52

Then when you go to his

29:55

interview. And. This.

29:57

Is nice at the police department and

29:59

they've. Back this is in the middle of the

30:01

night. And. Keep

30:03

in mind that you know this is. Visa.

30:05

The first interview since you know the the

30:07

detectors are bringing them all and this is

30:09

probably everybody on shift. Every taking

30:12

in interviewing people it it's the first

30:14

time they're having a chance tuck that

30:16

these guys. And.

30:19

What Victor says. Is

30:21

I told her that I thought

30:24

somebody had broken into the house.

30:26

That. I thought somebody was injured, but

30:28

I didn't at that time know

30:30

what was happening. The Saudis houses

30:33

attractive. But. We already know

30:35

he's Media Elite Thousand Nine one

30:37

one operator according to the historic,

30:39

within seconds of finding Roberts. That.

30:42

He knows he's been sent. Little.

30:44

The I don't know it's happened. A

30:46

back to what he's saying. So I bought one

30:49

of their knives to. With. One of

30:51

their knives, right? So I walk back.

30:53

While. I'm on the soundless her to the

30:55

top of our landing, up our stairs. I.

30:58

Can see Joe and Joe saying get

31:00

an ambulance here right away Roberts hurt

31:02

so I repeated it and I said

31:05

we need help right away. She.

31:07

Talked to me for a little bit

31:09

and then she told me Joe had

31:12

said he was stabbed and so the

31:14

detective at this point. Interrupt him.

31:17

And. Prayers. Oh. Joe

31:19

said he was stand. And

31:21

so so what I think is happening here

31:23

is that this is the first time they

31:26

detected as hearing how Victor learned that Robert

31:28

had been stabbed but the detective has not

31:30

heard the nine one one call. And

31:33

and we wouldn't have expected himself. Yeah, nobody sad

31:35

a chance how it is. Sit down and

31:37

listen and you have all these detectives with different

31:39

jobs and. He doesn't know that

31:41

this is them First thing that victor

31:44

his saying. This is where Victor

31:46

as caught he has caught at this

31:48

point he knows it. oh he goes

31:50

the ass because when I was that

31:52

the stairs cause I told her that

31:54

he was stabbed on the phone and

31:56

she told me to apply pressure. Anything

31:59

like that. The not like oh yeah

32:01

I was at the stairs and he

32:03

told me by any you can see

32:06

he's cause he knows hoops I know

32:08

I told her right away that he

32:10

was stabbed. They just told the detective

32:12

that I told her I didn't know

32:15

what was happening to this right Here

32:17

This is the this was a smoking

32:19

gun for me and Victor. You are

32:21

lying Victor You all talked about this

32:23

to some extent. How long he

32:26

talked about it? I. Don't

32:28

know that that tells me

32:30

the story. That you're all tingly is

32:32

Not true. And he's caught right

32:35

here. and the detective course doesn't realize

32:37

it because he hadn't heard the nine

32:39

one one call and in that again

32:41

he wouldn't have expected him to have.

32:43

Will sit and listen, the analyze it

32:46

and put it in if you watch,

32:48

if you listen to the call and

32:50

if you watch Victors interview. And.

32:52

You see that moment where he gets

32:54

caught in a little tripped up and

32:57

he realized oh because when I was

32:59

on the stairs he told me that

33:01

doesn't come out any of their stories

33:03

because letter as the part they're leaving

33:05

out is the discussion about. Hey

33:07

Robertson stat. They leave

33:09

that out because they know when they discussed

33:12

it it was prior to the call. That's

33:14

right, Yeah, and

33:16

it's It's interesting too, because you

33:18

mentioned Victor screaming. And

33:20

Victor sort of saying that he screamed. And.

33:23

They earn. You've. Got the next door neighbor.

33:26

Who says they heard a scream? A high

33:28

pitched scream and will certainly victor scream. But

33:31

they didn't hear it. In. A limb Forty

33:33

nine. Or lem. forty five Raw before the nine

33:35

One one call. They. Heard it.

33:38

Between. Eleven Eleven thirty, which was much earlier,

33:41

Was. Completely further tom one of. His

33:44

at just. One questions you

33:46

know: do they consult with the Behavioral

33:48

Analysis Unit on the skies Now. That's.

33:51

Surprising to me, I don't know why they would do the.

33:54

Young. Men to me that's not.

33:56

If that's not a normal things are

33:58

headed departments to do it. Oh.

34:01

What? Are they have be either? I mean

34:03

they're the Us Attorney's office out of thought

34:05

that they would cause you got up and

34:08

banana my knowledge Sam in any different I

34:10

mountains of madness. They've already got evidence together

34:12

her across Scotland with a victory or their.

34:15

Well I mean that that's just some sound

34:17

that me because has city and how can

34:19

he had that information and and it's not

34:21

just a valid economy given the benefit is

34:23

the downhill. he just left that part out

34:25

that. When. You see him stumble

34:27

and you know you think hi,

34:29

See that ninja like okay, you're

34:31

You're not telling the truth here

34:33

and. Why? Aren't you? Were

34:37

in in. I'm not saying that. I.

34:39

Believe that there was involved

34:41

in killing him. But.

34:45

He. Knows when he's making the nine

34:47

one one call And he knows when

34:49

he's talking to the detectives, he's not

34:51

telling them the truth. Of what

34:53

happened. He's not and there's

34:55

a reason for that. What's that reason

34:57

so thick their what really happened and

35:00

spurred my question? Where do we talk

35:02

about this on our episode? Were you surprised that

35:04

when the time came to sort of and that

35:06

I'd rather than the documentary to arrest somebody and

35:08

see if they could break somebody? And.

35:10

Get them to flip on the other two. They chose

35:13

Dylan and not Victor. A. Yes, I would

35:15

have chosen victory for this very

35:17

reason. And. And not only that

35:19

because they think he's also seems to be the

35:21

least culpable and I see that so I think

35:24

we're we had mentioned is that they think they

35:26

went after dealing with if I knew the most

35:28

culpable. I believe that. That

35:31

prosecution team and in as

35:34

detectives believe that Dylan is

35:36

the one. That. Did

35:38

the killing and they that most

35:40

likely and but i think victor

35:42

pally with some most. Emotionally.

35:45

Fragile. So. Take.

35:47

Advantage of that and.

35:50

Say. Hey we know. You're.

35:53

Not the one who did this,

35:55

but you are lying. in

35:57

and weekend we know you're lying it

36:00

And then, and

36:02

I think too, what would have been interesting too

36:04

with their interviews, and this is hindsight's 2020, but

36:07

kind of walk them through, okay, was anything else

36:09

said? Was anything, you know, who was wearing what,

36:11

when? And what, when, like just really

36:13

get all those really fine details

36:15

and match those up as well,

36:17

because they have this, they

36:20

couldn't have gotten every single detail worked out, but they

36:22

have this sort of general

36:25

story that they were

36:27

able to really stick to. And

36:29

all the little details in that

36:32

story were never drawn out to

36:34

show, okay, where are

36:36

the discrepancies? But this

36:38

was, I think, an area that could

36:40

have been focused upon if they had

36:42

decided to arrest Victor first. Yeah,

36:46

that's a great point because, you know, if Dylan

36:48

is the most culpable in their minds, and that's why

36:50

they went with them first. You

36:52

and I know from our experience, we typically try to

36:54

work our way up the chain. You know, the ones

36:56

with like the least to lose, we

36:59

try to get them to flip above and

37:01

above, but like we typically don't go to

37:03

the top of the pyramid first, which is

37:05

why I was surprised by that choice to

37:07

go with Dylan first. But

37:10

with that in mind, you know, there's

37:12

been a lot said about the interaction

37:14

of the three men, even within that

37:16

first night, where it appeared that Joe

37:18

Price was the leader of the pack

37:21

or the one who spoke most or maybe perhaps

37:23

with a look, tried to silence the

37:25

others. You know, that's

37:27

been said a lot by other people,

37:29

but I'm really curious to hear your

37:32

thoughts on the interaction of those three

37:34

at the very beginning before the investigators really know

37:37

much about them. And then as

37:39

you've learned more about their relationship with each

37:41

other and the interaction of the three of

37:43

them and how that may factor

37:46

into your theory or profile of what

37:48

happened here. Yeah, I would just –

37:50

I would love to hear that. I

37:54

think their dynamic that

37:56

night really set

37:59

the tone for what was going on. going on in

38:01

their relationship before and after. Joe

38:05

was the head of the family and

38:08

Victor worshiped Joe. It

38:11

would have done anything for him. And Joe

38:14

was enamored with Dylan in a

38:17

way. And Dylan,

38:19

as we learned, was starting to pull away

38:22

from Joe. But my

38:24

thought on that was perhaps that was, he

38:26

was manipulating Joe and saying,

38:29

well, I might find somebody else. So I

38:31

was interested to keep Joe's attention on him

38:33

because that was working. Joe

38:35

was like, what can I do? What can I do

38:37

for you? I don't want to lose you. I know

38:40

we're losing the spice in our relationship. So

38:42

Joe was really trying to cling on to Dylan,

38:45

but what we learned, and

38:47

I don't know if this was brought up in the

38:49

documentary or if you brought this up on your show

38:51

or, but at one point Dylan

38:53

had told their neighbor, the woman

38:55

who lived in the basement, who

38:58

was actually very close with Victor,

39:01

that he planned to replace Victor

39:03

at some point, that he wanted to

39:05

take Victor's place, something along those, I'm

39:08

paraphrasing what he

39:10

had told this woman and she

39:12

had provided that information to the

39:16

police. So that was

39:18

interesting to me. So I wondered

39:20

if Dylan was feeling that way.

39:23

Like, I want to take Victor's

39:25

spot. Was this a way that

39:27

he was trying to manipulate Joe?

39:31

And then you have like kind

39:33

of Joe and Dylan with their own

39:36

relationship and Victor

39:39

really just wanting to have

39:41

a relationship, a family, like

39:43

a real family, raised kids,

39:45

be with Joe. And

39:47

I think he was very

39:49

much trying to please Joe by

39:52

being accepting of Dylan. There's

39:56

no indication that I

39:58

could see that. Victor and Dylan

40:02

were fighting or had any issues with each

40:05

other, but it really did seem like it was

40:08

Joe and Dylan and then

40:11

Joe and Victor and they would do

40:13

things kind of behind Victor's

40:16

back. And

40:18

obviously they're, you know, they're not just, they're

40:21

not even just three random friends. There's obviously a

40:23

lot closer of a relationship, but

40:25

when you typically have three people

40:27

involved in any sort of

40:29

a conspiracy, any sort of a

40:31

plan, whether it has illicit purposes

40:34

or not, it's really difficult to

40:36

keep that a secret. So far,

40:38

it seems like in this trio,

40:40

whether they are at a fault or not,

40:42

they know more than they have let on, but

40:44

it seems that they have not

40:46

been able to be cracked. And I thought

40:48

that was a really interesting point you made

40:50

that, you know, we've heard over and over,

40:52

they got their story straight really quickly. They

40:54

have all stood in line. No one's broken

40:56

ranks. It is an airtight story, but

40:59

part of it is that in reading the reports, you

41:02

know, you kind of put your finger on it. Yes,

41:04

the broad story seems to all be

41:06

in line, but, you know, the devil's in the

41:08

details. And so do you

41:10

think that, do

41:12

you think that was a lost opportunity? Is

41:14

that opportunity still there? How tight

41:17

is their story together? And how is it possible

41:19

that after all these years, three

41:21

men's stories continue to align and no

41:23

one's broken ranks are spoken to a

41:25

fourth person. And that person

41:27

has then told someone else. It just seems

41:29

very strange that there has been this cone

41:32

of silence for so long when not one,

41:34

not two people, but three people are involved.

41:37

Likely because there's been no pressure, not a

41:39

lot of pressure. I mean, there's podcasts about

41:41

them. There's shows about them, but there's,

41:45

there's nothing putting pressure on them.

41:47

Really, what benefit do they get

41:49

other than maybe clear their

41:52

conscience, but there's really no benefit to any

41:55

of them talking. That's what I, how I would look

41:57

at it. Like what's, what's it going to do for

41:59

me? other than somebody wanting to clear

42:01

their conscience or... So what kind of pressure?

42:04

I mean, you're bringing the pressure now. What

42:06

kind of pressure? Because they were sued, both

42:08

civilly as well as with, you know, not

42:10

a murder charge, but a conspiracy charge tampering

42:12

with evidence. So, you know, it's kind of

42:15

to be a little more explicit. What type

42:17

of pressure will work? Because I think to

42:19

a lot of people, they'll think, well, there

42:21

was pressure. There were lawsuits. They probably had

42:23

to pay millions of dollars, certainly in legal

42:26

fees at least. What else

42:28

is there that wasn't applied back

42:30

then that could

42:33

make them crack? I don't

42:35

know. Additional evidence potentially. Somebody

42:37

having a difficult time living

42:40

with what happened or

42:43

a fracture in a

42:45

relationship where somebody is like,

42:47

I've held this secret

42:49

for you and I can't

42:52

do it anymore because

42:54

it's not good for me. That's the

42:56

only thing I think of, like the

42:58

pressure of somebody's conscience getting

43:01

to them and realizing

43:04

that perhaps the

43:07

other person and this lie and

43:09

keeping this secret of

43:11

a murder and not providing Robert's friends and

43:13

family with the answers just become too much

43:16

for that person. It

43:19

will take a lot of courage for

43:21

somebody to come forward now. If

43:23

they do come forward, their whole life is

43:26

upended again. That will be

43:28

very tough to do. Has

43:30

to be something very motivating to

43:32

do that. With the knowledge that

43:34

by the time this becomes public,

43:37

your coverage will, if not be complete,

43:40

will be close. You guys are doing what, eight episodes

43:42

on this? Am I making that up? I think so.

43:45

No, you're not making that up. We

43:47

haven't finished editing. We have everything recorded

43:49

and it's several hours. We're

43:52

editing things down

43:55

a little bit. You're

43:57

releasing these every week, right? We're going to see.

44:00

Yeah, I'm a proponent of annoyed my weeks earlier

44:02

episodes with oh Yeah. I didn't

44:04

want to have to. I didn't want it to dry up

44:06

for too long as it is. We. Went

44:08

in. It's. Really in depth.

44:10

We spend a lot of time and

44:12

it it's kind of it. I. Guess

44:14

we don't. We don't know anything about that we'd never knew

44:16

there. Were a

44:18

sign as the have to judge say okay

44:21

how much they want and never wanted to

44:23

be very authentic I we'd sit there and

44:25

we did they we talk behavior and I

44:27

wanted to be like a really do want

44:30

to be like people are in the room

44:32

with us to Cspi but there's also you

44:34

have to factor in. This is also. Entertaining

44:37

sick entertainment. You have to make it like

44:40

I'm not too boring or people fall asleep

44:42

so you have to be. A

44:45

I don't want to leave out something that could

44:47

be important as somebody, a listener and like oh

44:49

why julie that out that could have been important

44:51

need and try to make my own decisions. So.

44:55

It's a judgment call that a

44:57

at this point maybe eight episodes

44:59

I think just based on the

45:01

hours we recorded. It's

45:03

worth it. but. Sir for the

45:05

hundred and thirty of our closest friends are

45:07

here with us right now and for everyone

45:09

who be listening and thoroughly for comes out.

45:12

While. She's go and tell us. What?

45:14

Happened Robin Wonder and the Expert

45:16

as here sellers what happened that

45:19

night. World. Isn't it?

45:21

Oh dear. I'm gonna be honest, I

45:23

don't know exactly what happened by. I

45:25

will tell you what my theory is.

45:27

My colleagues has theories. Are

45:30

theories don't differ too much

45:32

from each other's. By.

45:34

It's I do not believe as a premeditated

45:36

murder one of my colleagues might have a

45:38

different opinion and that I don't believe as

45:41

premeditated. It makes no sense to me that

45:43

these very three smart individuals would plan to

45:45

murder somebody in their own home like this.

45:47

I think something went wrong. And.

45:50

Required. Them to this made the

45:52

decision that they had to kill Robert I

45:54

see him. Likely. Was a

45:56

plan Sexual assault. And

45:58

I can't say for. The written that

46:00

Robert was. Sexually Assaulted. I know

46:03

that evidence has been presented

46:05

at potentially he was. I'm

46:07

not convinced of that. Because.

46:11

Of the lab cats and some of the things

46:13

that defense put forward, I think it's questionable. I

46:15

think some of that evidence could have just then.

46:18

Muscle relaxation, And

46:21

that's how that got their. The

46:24

lack of blood. I don't think that

46:26

there was a big. Clean up, And.

46:30

The evidence just isn't there and

46:32

we debated whether the somehow killed

46:34

on a park or in a

46:36

baby poll or something but tests

46:39

the amount of time to clean

46:41

up and then just the logistics.

46:43

Okay let's say he was killed

46:45

on at Harper before they got

46:47

a. Dispose. Of that

46:49

somewhere in again, that would it still.

46:52

they'd find it in a dumpster somewhere.

46:54

There's just so I do. I do

46:56

side kind of some with some the

46:58

defense theory that there just wasn't a

47:00

lot of blood. He was killed and

47:03

likely suffered from. What did they get

47:05

acclimated? The. Queue cardiac. Camp.

47:08

An odd. Where. The blood. Yes.

47:10

The. Other liquids as surrounds the heart and

47:13

stop bleeding. That's likely what happened when

47:15

he was stabbed in the order in

47:17

my. Opinion. Has

47:19

the evidence just doesn't support that? This was a

47:21

big bloody crime scene? Now most of the crime

47:23

scenes I've been to them Bob Sapp. Things in

47:25

there is a lot of blood. And

47:28

that's what? So baffling I think. But

47:30

the are I think the intruder theory.

47:32

They are trying to stick his closest

47:34

to this what happened as they can

47:36

and so I think he somehow was

47:38

immobilized. They thought maybe he was even

47:40

dying and they stabbed him. I think

47:42

the scabs were not in. This is

47:45

not the kind of stab where somebody

47:47

is just. Wielding that knife live

47:49

in full force of just meal up

47:51

and down. Weather's blood spatter on the

47:53

walls and the slashes didn't happen here.

47:55

I think it was stabbed in to

47:57

him. it would probably great force that

47:59

good. Care and almost like maybe

48:01

you're just like as they want

48:03

to be really careful to prevent

48:05

getting blood on themselves or been

48:08

and that's how I envisioned it

48:10

happening and then me and then

48:12

then cover. Up starts. So.

48:15

But it is likely could have started

48:17

out as an accidental. Do you have

48:19

any thoughts? Want to hear theory on?

48:22

The big question of motivation. Like you

48:24

said, these are three intelligent individuals and

48:26

this is their own home. You know

48:28

this is not a good luck no

48:30

matter what, whether this was planned or

48:32

not. So and of friends, they are

48:34

friends with. This man at the very

48:36

least, one of them is very good

48:38

friends with and the other two by

48:40

proxy are not strangers to him. Said

48:42

you have any series or thoughts as

48:44

to. Motivation. My

48:47

theory would be witness elimination,

48:49

so I tend to believe

48:51

this is likely a planned

48:53

sexual assaults, not a planned

48:55

homicide. Something went wrong. They.

48:58

May be thought they kill them ill he

49:00

was done on earth. Somehow they felt like

49:02

they needed to make sure he didn't make

49:04

up or. Report them or

49:07

something. Air and. So.

49:09

That was probably the end. Result.

49:11

The motivation for the murder. Now.

49:14

My colleagues we didn't We debated there

49:16

so you have to listen to the

49:18

showed a the here are debates about

49:20

it. I don't think we. Come.

49:22

To a really clean answer.

49:25

The justices this kind

49:27

of baffling case where.

49:30

I. Just can't Just. Say.

49:33

Yes, I got it. I

49:35

a that usually happens on cases I think I

49:37

got it and I kept as made hundred as

49:39

I've been over this I just kept the yeah

49:41

it's gonna come to me it's gonna come to

49:43

me. By it

49:45

to. i

49:49

would eliminate things i can i think

49:51

we've clarified some of the evidence some

49:53

of is baffling evidence i think i've

49:55

am at peace with i understand i

49:57

understand why there's not a lot of

49:59

blood I understand why those

50:01

wounds are symmetrical. I

50:04

understand why they couldn't find evidence

50:06

of these BDSM devices

50:08

being used because I don't believe

50:10

they were. That's my

50:13

theory. And so I put

50:15

to rest a lot of the theories that

50:18

are out there, and I've

50:20

just streamlined it to where

50:22

it's palatable to me. It makes sense to

50:25

me, but ultimately, I

50:27

don't really have that moment

50:29

where I know exactly, yeah, I got it. Yeah,

50:33

to me, this is a – you hear

50:35

hoofbeats and it's zebras. This

50:38

is not a case where sort of

50:40

the Occam's razor's simplest answer is necessarily

50:43

the answer. I think

50:45

something very strange happened in that house that

50:47

night, and I think that's why it's so

50:49

hard to make sense of,

50:51

because applying sort of normal logic

50:53

and figuring this out and sort

50:55

of normal what you would expect

50:57

to see in a crime scene, you just

50:59

don't see. Real quick, do

51:01

you buy Glenn's theory that it

51:04

was a plant knife, or do you think that is the knife they used? I

51:06

lean toward that that was the knife

51:08

used. What did you decide? I'm

51:11

curious why that is. So I thought

51:13

that it was likely because there was –

51:16

Robert's chest hair found on it. There was

51:18

fatty tissue found on it. I

51:21

do believe that Joe

51:24

took it out of him for

51:27

whatever reason, I think, to tamper

51:29

with evidence, but obviously,

51:31

I don't know his intent for sure, but that's what

51:33

I think. And

51:36

what I do find is this ridiculous

51:38

story, though, that just keeps coming back about

51:41

this Cutlery set where it's missing the small,

51:43

which I believe was maybe a paring

51:45

knife of some sort. Oh, my mom took

51:47

it out of there, and it's

51:51

just such a bizarre story, so I'm

51:53

not 100 percent that that's the knife,

51:56

but I do lean

51:58

toward the knife found was likely the murder. weapon. What

52:00

about you? I can't remember

52:03

what was it. I think

52:05

we went back and forth. The fatty tissue

52:07

and the hair is very convincing

52:09

right? What about the looped white fibers on

52:11

the knife? I thought for me

52:14

it was hard to believe the the kind of

52:16

the depth that it was a longer knife

52:18

but that all three seemed so similar especially

52:20

when you had them going through kind of

52:23

different parts of the body. As you know

52:25

it's just difficult to have it be like

52:27

the perfect length each time. I

52:30

found that to be

52:32

very confusing. Everything

52:34

about those stab wounds were confusing

52:36

so that's just one of the

52:38

many things that are confusing especially

52:40

with such slow precision that the

52:42

person could have used. It is

52:44

possible that they could have known

52:47

where to stop or made sure that they

52:49

stopped before their you know hand ever touched

52:51

the body so as not to transfer

52:53

any DNA for example. Well something

52:55

that I think factored into my

52:57

thought process and that is that

52:59

if this had been a

53:01

violent struggle and you had these three wounds

53:04

that I would lean toward it's got to

53:06

be the other knife but

53:08

because I think that they were inflicted in

53:10

such a methodical way. It doesn't mean the

53:12

person's weak but the fact that

53:14

they were inflicted in such a methodical way

53:16

I can go with this longer

53:19

knife having been the murder

53:21

weapon. The thing that makes me

53:23

think it was that knife is I agree with you

53:25

that I think they

53:28

decided to stab him. I don't think you

53:30

know Joe walked in on Dylan stabbing him

53:32

with a paring knife. I don't think that

53:34

happened. I think they

53:37

decided and by they personally

53:39

I think it's Joe and Dylan

53:41

decided to do this and possibly

53:44

Victor is the one who walked in on it and

53:46

I think they would have picked the knife from downstairs

53:48

to make it look like an intruder so they probably

53:51

just went and did that and

53:53

you know like you said because

53:55

the stab wounds are As

53:58

much meant to indicate an individual. Streeter as

54:00

to kill. I. Can see it

54:02

being sort of a more even thing and

54:05

the other thing that I that I think

54:07

it's interesting we talked about this lot on

54:09

are shown if he has addressed it but

54:11

the angle of the blade, the way that

54:13

you know the the sharp end of the

54:15

knife has pointed towards eleven. Levin O'clock

54:17

on the dial in the and the dollars

54:20

on the. Is. Pointed towards the the

54:22

for high. That means whoever did it did it from

54:24

the left side of the bed. I would

54:26

say. Unless. They were holding an avenue really

54:28

unusual way which is even more of an indication of

54:30

sort of a decision. like they're standing over there and

54:32

they decide to do it. and they do it from

54:34

that side and that's why it's from that angle, which

54:36

is not what you'd expect. For instance, if an intruder

54:38

to walk in and sap it it was dead of

54:40

the right side of it, that size of advice on

54:42

the door. So. Yeah, so I

54:44

think probably the pairing off it's a

54:46

red herring. As a.

54:49

Mom. Story about keeping it as struck me

54:51

as his strays is a strict years or

54:53

so. Maybe

54:56

that. And I didn't buy it.

54:58

I didn't buy any of that. That. And

55:00

I mean simple as people lying just because

55:02

they lie because he's like wow, that's not

55:04

good friend. He may be lost it. It's

55:06

very possible that she is lying, but not

55:08

because it's the. Murder weapon

55:10

right? We didn't have the that the saw the

55:13

science. yeah mama mama can lie just to say

55:15

while we gotta give him a story that it's

55:17

may not even be the murder. That's right people

55:19

lie all the time and is Nick our high

55:21

got him and like Isis. Impression.

55:24

Management or sign a just line and liar

55:26

the to make themselves look better to protect

55:28

somebody to say think they have deal and

55:30

it's a really just makes things worse by

55:32

yeah I lean toward that and mean I.

55:35

I leaned. Is

55:38

Emily the other thing too is that

55:40

little when it comes to be intruder

55:42

it's a lesson and share mean there

55:44

there's no way that robberies to this

55:46

is in and not knew that there's

55:48

in shooter that to get close enough

55:50

to him and same as those two

55:52

so I i i like I agree

55:54

that both of you and inlet you

55:57

just said wrestling very. Strange. have

55:59

a bad. I think

56:02

what was interesting to the petechial hemorrhaging

56:04

in the eyes, it was

56:06

very minor, two pinpoint, one

56:08

in the sclera and one in the

56:10

conjunctiva, just two dots. I

56:12

mean, that could be from a cough, but

56:15

I don't think so. I think that showed

56:17

something, people

56:19

want to say, oh, it's suffocation, but it's not

56:21

just suffocation. It's some sort of manual, either

56:25

smothering or there's no indication it

56:28

was strangle, but something happened where

56:31

there was pressure and

56:33

he had a little

56:35

bit of hemorrhaging in his eyes. It

56:37

was minor, it's not a lot, but

56:40

I think that's the only sign of

56:42

potential violence that I

56:44

saw prior to the stabbing.

56:48

I couldn't make out what happened, but I

56:50

think that those somehow happened

56:52

maybe prior to the actual stabbing

56:54

and they're part of what led

56:56

up to Robert becoming

56:59

incapacitated. We need

57:01

to do more cases together, Jillia.

57:05

I don't know that we've solved anything, but

57:07

I mean, I mean, I need a

57:09

lot to think about. I mean, I thought we

57:11

covered it with however many episodes, but you brought

57:13

up so many good points here. What did you

57:15

guys come down on on the

57:17

sexual assault? Did you think he- We said

57:19

it was an intruder, so. No, we

57:22

didn't. Oh, no. Look

57:24

at Julia's face. Wow. You

57:26

don't have a good face in any way. I

57:30

think ours is not too different from yours. We

57:32

didn't think this was a planned murder, but it

57:35

was a planned assault gone wrong and we think

57:37

that they thought they killed him and they thought

57:39

they had to cover it up, which is why

57:41

they stabbed him. I do think it was a

57:44

they. Maybe it started out with one

57:46

and there was, I do think

57:48

the relationship had something to do with it. We

57:51

can't. The motivation is so difficult

57:53

to understand and that's the part I

57:56

think we may have. I've been able

57:58

to explain maybe some of them. Like

58:00

you said, the blood I'm able to get

58:02

over, I don't think he

58:05

showed up. I don't think Robert had anything to do

58:07

with this. I don't think he showed up to seek

58:10

anything other than somewhere to lay his head

58:12

for the night with a trusted friend. That

58:15

was it. I don't think he was

58:17

seeking relationships with him, nothing like that. The

58:20

mouse guard in his mouth just

58:22

keeps coming back to me for

58:24

many reasons, because I think he put that mouse guard

58:26

in to go to sleep. And

58:29

that is a very difficult part for

58:31

me, how I believe he was drugged. However

58:35

he was drugged, he was in

58:37

a place that was sentient

58:40

enough to do what he normally does, which is

58:42

to put the mouth guard in. And so to

58:44

be a person, to be able to time when

58:47

the drugs hit him so well,

58:50

to allow him to get ready for bed

58:52

– you mentioned so little urine. Before

58:54

I go to bed, I usually use a

58:56

restroom, brush my teeth, put my

58:58

mouth guard in and go to sleep. So that all falls

59:01

in line with he did the typical things that he

59:03

does when he goes to sleep. And he

59:05

had enough time to do all those things

59:08

before whatever drug hit

59:10

him, and he went to bed. And

59:13

then all of this transpired in a very short amount

59:15

of time. So the

59:17

mechanics – I think I can wrap

59:19

my head around – the motivation is

59:21

the huge question mark. Yeah,

59:27

I think that's very similar to where

59:29

we differed on a few things, but

59:32

not much. Not

59:34

us and you, but our group, slightly

59:36

different. We had debate about a planned

59:39

murder or not, and

59:42

we debated everything as we normally do. But

59:46

my thought is he laid

59:49

down on the bed, the drugs had

59:51

hit him, and they went in. Something

59:56

was discovered that was wrong. He

1:00:00

woke up or something like they

1:00:02

somehow there. I just feel like

1:00:04

somehow they realized we either

1:00:06

cannot let him get

1:00:09

up in the morning or we have to

1:00:11

cover this up because we've killed

1:00:13

him or they thought he was killed

1:00:15

something along those lines. There's just, you

1:00:18

know, the lack of again,

1:00:20

the lack of any kind of struggle and,

1:00:22

you know, tells me likely never did wake

1:00:25

up. And, you know,

1:00:27

the sexual assault part, I

1:00:29

don't think that they accomplished that.

1:00:33

And I believe that potentially

1:00:35

that the semen

1:00:38

found the seminal fluid or,

1:00:40

you know, it was a

1:00:42

presumptive test that was done.

1:00:46

And that can happen.

1:00:48

That can be as a

1:00:50

result of death and relaxation

1:00:52

of muscles. And

1:00:54

so there's confusion in the

1:00:57

documents that I have, and I think I even

1:00:59

looked for the FBI report, but they're

1:01:01

not going to send it to me. It's still an

1:01:03

open case, but, you know,

1:01:06

there's no indication that sperm

1:01:08

was found. And

1:01:10

so not knowing if there's

1:01:12

a medical reason for that or

1:01:14

he didn't ejaculate. And

1:01:18

I don't think he did. So

1:01:20

I don't think that the sexual assault took

1:01:22

place as what was put forward.

1:01:24

So I think that's also where I differ with some

1:01:27

of the popular theories as

1:01:29

well. I think it was much

1:01:31

more, like I said, streamlined as to what

1:01:33

happened. That's what the evidence suggests to me

1:01:36

is this more streamlined, you

1:01:38

know, looking at kind of the simplest

1:01:40

terms, but still very,

1:01:42

very complex and trying to

1:01:44

understand the motivation. And having

1:01:46

seen people killed for very

1:01:49

minor reasons, I feel

1:01:52

like I can understand any kind of

1:01:54

motive with these individuals. Yeah, I

1:01:56

think there's a few things people

1:01:58

get hung up on. You know,

1:02:01

when we see this and we ever recover it and I

1:02:04

think you put your finger on it I think it

1:02:06

was a planned sexual assault whether it ever happened or

1:02:08

not and it's possible Like you said

1:02:10

that that test was a red herring That

1:02:13

happens apparently it happens quite often, you know,

1:02:15

I mean it to me it

1:02:17

just doesn't matter to me The

1:02:20

thing that I always go back to is the

1:02:22

stab wounds and the uniformity thereof And I just

1:02:25

don't think you would have that if

1:02:27

he had not been Incapacitated in

1:02:29

some way and I don't think these three

1:02:31

men would have incapacitated him

1:02:34

to murder him You know, I don't

1:02:36

think they were planning on killing him

1:02:38

that night And if

1:02:41

they were planning on killing him, I think the evidence would

1:02:43

have been different I mean they would have killed him But

1:02:45

you would have seen sort of evidence of a struggle frankly

1:02:47

would have looked more like an intruder if they had been

1:02:49

planning on Killing him there'd have been more evidence of a

1:02:51

struggle and fighting back and everything else So,

1:02:53

yeah, I mean I think we pretty much end up in

1:02:56

the same places issue day, but I'm really excited to hear

1:02:58

how you get there Yeah,

1:03:00

and it's it's a long

1:03:03

road and it's great There's a

1:03:05

lot of information that comes forth

1:03:07

we have on the the editors

1:03:09

of the who murdered who murdered

1:03:11

Robert? Juan website and the

1:03:13

reason why I wanted to talk with them

1:03:16

is reading through their website They're

1:03:18

just some Comments they would write a blog

1:03:20

along the way and their comments that they

1:03:22

made that I just thought were so Intuitive

1:03:24

and I felt that they had a really

1:03:26

good understanding of the dynamics between the three

1:03:29

individuals So that's why I brought them in

1:03:31

I really wanted to understand what those relationships

1:03:33

were like what these guys were really like

1:03:35

even though they didn't know them They sort

1:03:37

of got to know them over all these

1:03:39

years of having reported on the case They

1:03:42

were fascinating and they had

1:03:45

so much information about all the

1:03:47

different players and really helped us

1:03:49

And it's just a real focus all on

1:03:51

behavior. You guys are all legal But this

1:03:53

is all about the behavior and the evidence

1:03:55

to we discussed the evidence the evidence helps

1:03:58

us inform the behavior Well,

1:04:00

I think, I think what everybody out there should should

1:04:03

know is we barely scratched the surface in this case.

1:04:05

So if you guys are fascinated by it, I know

1:04:07

a lot of you are, you need

1:04:09

to check out the consult and listen to their coverage of

1:04:11

this case. I think your mind is going to be blown

1:04:13

and I can't wait to hear what

1:04:15

you guys think about it. Everybody in

1:04:17

the chat wants to know, Julia, if you're coming to CrimeCon

1:04:19

or not, have you, have you made a decision? Sad,

1:04:22

sad faces everywhere. I

1:04:25

had, I had told, I told you,

1:04:27

Brett, I was planning on going, but my,

1:04:29

my daughter's graduating high school that week. Oh,

1:04:31

that's way more important. That

1:04:34

is way more important. Congratulations.

1:04:37

Yes. Yes. And

1:04:39

I'm, I'm sure she will be there at graduation. She's

1:04:41

a good student. So she's going to make it. Not

1:04:44

like I can sneak up. Well, if it doesn't work out, you can

1:04:46

always come back. She's

1:04:48

out with you. So

1:04:51

unless it gets really bad, senioritis, I

1:04:54

need to be there. Yeah. So

1:04:56

I, you know, I'm kind of sad.

1:04:58

I was preparing to go because I've

1:05:00

always been reluctant to go to something

1:05:02

like that because it's a lot for me.

1:05:05

It is a lot. It's a lot for

1:05:07

anybody. Yeah. I'm kind of, I

1:05:10

mean, even though I have a podcast, it may not

1:05:12

seem like I'm an introverted person, but I am. So

1:05:15

that's a lot of, that takes a

1:05:17

lot of energy. And, but I, I

1:05:19

definitely want to go to not only

1:05:21

meet the people that listen to the

1:05:23

podcast, but also meet people that

1:05:25

I've gotten to know podcasting in person. Cause

1:05:27

I have, I feel like I have this

1:05:30

little network of podcast friends now and I

1:05:32

can't wait to meet them in person. So

1:05:34

I was disappointed about that, but next year

1:05:36

I'll, I'll make it. The next year it'll be

1:05:38

in September. So no, it'll be graduating. You may have to

1:05:40

be getting people off to college. I don't know. But

1:05:43

well, I guess it'll be, but yeah. I

1:05:47

think both, both my kids will be in college. So

1:05:49

yeah. So hopefully they'll both be going back. There

1:05:52

you go. Thank you so

1:05:55

much. As always, whenever you

1:05:57

come on the show, I know that, you know, Our

1:06:00

listeners gain so much insight. I know I

1:06:02

do. And we just so

1:06:04

appreciate what you're doing in the podcast

1:06:06

space. And for these cases, like you

1:06:08

said, you know, this case, there's still

1:06:11

hope. The people involved are still alive.

1:06:13

And though a lot of time has

1:06:15

passed, I am hopeful that

1:06:17

there will be justice one day for this

1:06:19

case. So I think you are the pressure

1:06:21

that is to bear in this case. And

1:06:24

I'm excited to hear all of your episodes

1:06:26

on the consult. You guys need to subscribe

1:06:29

today if you haven't already. And

1:06:31

already I can see people in the chat asking

1:06:33

you to come back for all of our future

1:06:35

cases, which we will have you on anytime you

1:06:37

want to be on with us. So thank you,

1:06:39

Julia, for taking the time today. Thank you for

1:06:41

having me again. Yeah. And

1:06:43

a couple of weeks, we'll have you back on to discuss one

1:06:45

of the FBI's most famous unsolved cases, but I want to ask

1:06:47

you about it now. Just about people's demands in the chat. Well,

1:06:52

Julia, do you have anything else you want

1:06:55

to add before we sign off? Any final

1:06:57

parting thoughts other than to go listen to

1:06:59

the consult and get all the facts?

1:07:02

I do have some parting thoughts and

1:07:04

it's about Robert Juan, the person we've

1:07:06

been talking about, because, you know,

1:07:08

as you know, all the victims, it's

1:07:10

always sad. It's always horrible. And

1:07:12

it impacts, you

1:07:14

know, the loss of somebody like this

1:07:17

impacts everybody. And in this particular case,

1:07:19

you know, listening to the people

1:07:22

that knew Robert or reported

1:07:24

on Robert or prosecuted Robert's

1:07:26

case, or even, you

1:07:28

know, Alice, even, you know, talking about how

1:07:31

you had mutual friends that knew Robert and

1:07:34

watching the documentary, you see the pain and

1:07:37

the impact that this

1:07:39

has had on Robert's

1:07:42

friends and family. And I

1:07:46

hope that someday somebody

1:07:48

comes forward and tells the truth

1:07:50

about what happened. Give them peace.

1:07:54

That's all I have to say. Well,

1:07:58

I can't imagine a more. fitting sign

1:08:00

off for this episode and for this case. And I

1:08:02

know a lot of you have enjoyed this. I hope

1:08:04

you will listen to the consult. It's

1:08:06

an amazing podcast and they're doing a deep dive on this

1:08:08

case and you're going to learn a lot. And

1:08:11

look, if there's anybody out there

1:08:13

who has information about this, reach

1:08:16

out to us, reach out to the

1:08:18

metropolitan police department. This is

1:08:20

a case that absolutely should be solved.

1:08:22

And there are so many people who

1:08:25

loved Robert who are still waiting for

1:08:27

justice. So you need to be the

1:08:29

voice that makes that happen. Well, Julia,

1:08:31

thank you so much for joining us.

1:08:33

Thank you for everything you do and

1:08:35

your, your amazing show and for

1:08:37

continuing to grace us with your presence. Everybody

1:08:39

loves you so much. And

1:08:41

I hope, I hope everything's going well for you on

1:08:44

the show and you're enjoying it because you guys deserve

1:08:46

it. Well, guys, we will

1:08:48

be back next week. As

1:08:50

I said, in the last episode that you guys heard,

1:08:52

we have a new case, an exciting case, one of

1:08:54

my favorite cases. I can't wait to talk about it

1:08:56

some more. With all of you. But

1:08:59

until then, I'm Brett. And

1:09:02

I'm Alice. And

1:09:04

we are the products. Yesterday,

1:09:26

my daughter, who was supposed to be taking

1:09:28

a nap gets up from

1:09:30

her nap and comes in to the living

1:09:32

room where my wife is working and

1:09:35

says, mommy, I just, I just have

1:09:37

one question. Who

1:09:39

is DB Cooper? And why did he steal

1:09:41

the money? Wow.

1:09:46

Okay. He's four, by the way. Yeah.

1:09:48

Yeah. I have the same name several years ago.

1:09:51

So my, my daughter's 17 now, but several years

1:09:53

ago I was watching. I was like a date

1:09:55

line. You

1:10:31

Oh I

1:11:02

Thought she was out in the another room and

1:11:04

they were talking about sexual assault and then I

1:11:06

look up and she's Watching and somebody's

1:11:08

been murdered and sexually assaulted and she's watching

1:11:10

it So I immediately turn off the TV

1:11:12

and she looks at me shows. Don't worry

1:11:14

mom. I'm like you Exactly

1:11:17

what she said Oh

1:12:00

you