0:00

Thanks to at home for joining us this hour really

0:02

happy to have you here with us tonight. So

0:04

this is how the news today in Nashville.

0:08

Unfolded on live TV in

0:10

that city. This was in Nashville

0:13

as it happened live on the Channel 4

0:16

local news.

0:19

We do anticipate

0:21

this news conference starting any moment.

0:24

This will be the first official news conference

0:26

where we can hear where police are at in their investigation.

0:28

Joylin's back is joining us live

0:30

with some perspective personal perspective

0:34

on this as well. Joylin.

0:35

Yeah,

0:37

there's absolutely no words for what's going

0:39

on today. I'm actually a school shooting

0:42

survivor myself happened years

0:44

ago. I was in eighth grade and

0:46

all this is bringing it just flooding

0:48

back flashbacks for me and

0:50

what went through with classmates.

0:53

I was actually in the hallway during break when

0:56

the gunman opened fire, shooting

0:58

of my peers and killing them. And just

1:01

after hearing the gunshots, I just knew to

1:03

run and hide. I hid underneath

1:06

the risers in my choir

1:08

class. And those

1:10

minutes and hours of waiting be released

1:13

by police officers, I just felt like a lifetime.

1:15

That was today

1:17

in Nashville. And,

1:20

you know, this is obviously a really big

1:22

country. There's something like 800 different

1:24

local news stations from coast to coast. And

1:27

you have an obvious reaction to that video, You

1:30

watch that and you think, wow, what are the odds that this

1:33

reporter, person who survived

1:35

a school shooting as a kid, grew

1:38

up to be a TV who just

1:40

happened to be the reporter on duty the day

1:42

there was a school shooting right down the

1:44

street from where works. What are the odds that

1:47

the people who cover news end up having

1:49

a personal

1:51

connection like that to the gun

1:53

violence that they have to report on at

1:57

it turns out in this country, The odds of that

1:59

are. really not terrible

2:01

because this was also today, also

2:04

in national.

2:07

We're hearing from their administrators letting

2:09

them know that they are okay and that

2:11

they are monitoring the situation closely.

2:13

Holly, Amanda? Yeah, speaking of that, I'm getting

2:16

emails from my child's school that they're going

2:18

into lockdown at this time just

2:20

as a precaution and

2:22

that one of my other children's schools is

2:26

working with security to make sure that they've got

2:28

everything safe. It's going to be

2:31

okay.

2:31

All right. It's going to be okay.

2:34

Both that anchor who you saw on set there

2:36

at the end and the reporter

2:39

who you saw just before her who herself

2:41

was a school shooting survivor, they both

2:43

work at the same local TV station in

2:45

Nashville, Tennessee, a local NBC affiliate

2:47

there.

2:49

This was another local station

2:52

in Nashville today. This was News Channel 5 in

2:54

Nashville this afternoon. I

2:57

am here now with Hannah and I understand

3:00

you've been given a message. Yeah, so

3:02

I wanted to make sure it was okay with her before I

3:04

talked about her experience.

3:07

My mother-in-law is the front

3:10

desk

3:11

angel. She

3:14

is and she was at the

3:16

school this morning, however, Diana was

3:19

able to come

3:21

out of this safe. She actually stepped

3:23

away to take a break. I mean, and that is why

3:25

right now I am just, she's,

3:28

I'm torn. Sure, it probably

3:30

could have saved her life that she stepped away. Correct.

3:35

This nightmarish phenomenon

3:38

of news reporters, news anchors

3:41

finding themselves covering gun violence that

3:43

is in real time threatening their own

3:45

families, or that is in real time calling

3:47

back to the previous school shootings

3:50

that they themselves have survived.

3:53

I mean, these

3:55

dynamics, I mean, especially for those of

3:57

us in this business, it's like something

4:00

that you want to wake yourself up from, right? But

4:03

it's not just happening here and there. It

4:06

is not even just a phenomenon that

4:08

is unique to Nashville.

4:10

This, for example, was Wednesday. This

4:12

was five days ago in Denver, Colorado.

4:16

Sandra, that is

4:18

so encouraging to hear as

4:20

a parent, excuse me, my son just came up and

4:22

I had not seen him. Come up,

4:25

come up here. So, I'm sorry,

4:27

I've not seen my kid since this all

4:29

the way I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm

4:31

so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

4:34

I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so

4:36

sorry. I just. There's no

4:38

way you would have let your kid walk by. You need to

4:40

step aside. Please do. So

4:44

okay. Okay. He's okay. He's

4:47

good. You good? Okay. He's

4:50

good. But yeah, he's the one. And

4:53

my sister telling me what her daughter was telling her. He

4:56

was the one who was telling me what was happening. reporter's

4:59

source inside the school, the one giving

5:01

her real-time information about the shooter

5:03

in that building. Her

5:04

source was her own son, who was

5:06

a student at that school. That was five days ago.

5:10

Just a few months ago it happened in

5:12

St. Louis. A radio reporter live

5:14

on the air when her 17-year-old daughter texted

5:16

her that there was an active shooter inside her

5:18

school. Quote, this morning I was on the air

5:21

when my daughter began texting me that her school was

5:23

on lockdown, sirens, screaming.

5:26

Then I have to begin talking on the air about

5:28

the latest school shooting in America, the

5:30

one at my daughter's school. It

5:33

was October in St. Louis. Look

5:35

at these text messages. This is an 18-year-old

5:38

college freshman Emma Riddle. She's in her dorm

5:40

room at Michigan State earlier

5:43

this year when she sent these texts to her

5:45

dad. The police say the shooter's at the I.M.

5:47

East building, which is right next to us. I'm in my dorm.

5:50

We're still in lockdown. He hasn't been caught.

5:52

Her dad replies, what can I do? And

5:55

Emma writes back, I'm hiding under my desk with my

5:57

roommate. Just pray please and remember that I love you. and

6:00

her dad writes back, hey, I love you so much. You're

6:02

going to be okay. I'm right here. But

6:05

then look at what Emma writes to her dad next. I

6:07

never thought I would have to go through this again.

6:10

Yes, again, because before Emma

6:12

Riddle survived a school shooting, her freshman

6:15

year of college, just weeks ago at

6:17

Michigan State, the

6:19

same girl had previously survived a

6:21

shooting at her high school

6:24

when a gunman opened fire there and killed three

6:26

students and injured eight others. That

6:29

was only in 2021. Then

6:31

she graduated high school, went off

6:33

to Michigan State for college, right

6:35

into another mass shooting. This young

6:37

woman has survived two school

6:39

shootings in the span of 15 months.

6:42

Gun

6:45

murders, mass gun murders, are so

6:48

common in this country that it's entirely possible

6:50

that you might survive a mass shooting only

6:52

to endure another one.

6:54

That is a thing that happens now in our country.

6:56

It is statistically possible. Gun

6:58

murders are in fact so common in this country

7:00

that the shooter in one attack could shoot

7:02

and kill 11 people, drive to a nearby

7:05

parking lot to kill himself at

7:07

the site of where another mass shooting had occurred

7:09

just a few years prior. That literally

7:11

happened earlier this year. The shooter in

7:13

the Monterey Park, California, mass shooting.

7:15

You remember the guy who shot up that dance hall and

7:18

killed all those innocent people during the Lunar

7:20

New Year celebrations in Monterey Park?

7:23

After he killed all those people in the dance hall, He

7:25

then went to a parking lot and shot himself

7:28

there. It was the parking lot of a bowling

7:30

alley where a separate mass shooting had killed three

7:32

people in 2021.

7:34

Mass shootings are so common in this country

7:36

that if you yourself are the survivor of a mass

7:38

shooting, you might even one day

7:40

find yourself on vacation with your family.

7:43

And on vacation, you might find yourself down the road

7:46

from another mass shooting in progress. That

7:48

happened today to a woman named Ashby

7:51

Beasley in Nashville. The

7:54

press conference location was set up for police

7:56

officials to brief reporters on what they

7:58

knew.

7:59

Police officials were done briefing reporters. Ashby

8:02

Beasley just

8:03

went up there herself as an American

8:06

citizen, caught in the middle of this one too.

8:09

And she said this.

8:12

Aren't you guys tired of being here and having to cover

8:15

all of these mass shootings? I'm

8:17

from Highland Park, Illinois. My son and I

8:19

survived a mass shooting over the summer. I am in Tennessee

8:22

on a family vacation with

8:24

my son, visiting my sister-in-law.

8:27

I have been lobbying in DC since

8:29

we survived mass shooting in July. I have

8:31

met with over 130 lawmakers. How

8:35

is this still happening? How are

8:37

our children still dying and why are we failing

8:39

them? Gun violence is the number one

8:41

killer of children

8:42

and teens. It has overtaken

8:44

cars. Assault weapons are

8:46

contributing to the border crisis and fentanyl.

8:49

We are arming cartels with hour guns and hour

8:51

goose loose gun laws. These shootings

8:54

and these mass shootings will continue to happen until

8:56

our lawmakers step up and pass

8:58

gun safety legislation. Aren't

9:00

you guys tired of this?

9:02

You guys sick of it? We

9:05

have to do something. We'll all have to call our lawmakers and we

9:07

all have to make our lawmakers make change now.

9:09

Or this is going to keep happening. And it's going to be your

9:11

kid and your kid and your kid and your kid next.

9:14

Because it's just a matter of time.

9:17

She just survived.

9:20

Another mass shooting in Highland Park, Illinois.

9:22

She survived that with her son. She says her son is still deeply

9:25

traumatized by that. They wanted a family

9:27

vacation, family vacation

9:29

visiting Tennessee today when she

9:31

and her family end up in the middle of another mass

9:33

shooting.

9:34

The

9:36

fact that reporters are covering shootings at

9:38

their own kids' schools, that

9:41

people are surviving multiple mass

9:43

shootings before they are legally allowed to drink.

9:46

These aren't crazy coincidences.

9:49

This is a measure of the prevalence of this

9:52

problem in our country, this kind of stuff is happening

9:54

over and over and over again, because mass shootings

9:57

really do happen that frequently in the United

9:59

States.

10:02

In terms of today's, at this

10:04

hour police say the shooter is dead.

10:07

Shooter is a 28-year-old Tennessee resident and former

10:09

student of the school who identifies

10:12

as transgender, although there was some confusion

10:14

around that for much of the day today. The

10:16

shooter has no previous criminal record,

10:18

was reportedly carrying three firearms,

10:21

an AR-15 style rifle,

10:24

an AR-style pistol, as well as

10:26

a handgun. believe at least two

10:28

of those weapons were obtained legally

10:31

in Nashville.

10:32

Police say they're still working on a motive inside

10:34

the shooter's apartment. They say they found some sort

10:36

of manifesto, as well as other

10:38

writings that police say pertained to today's

10:41

date. Authorities are definitively

10:43

calling this today a targeted attack,

10:46

one that was carefully planned with detailed maps

10:48

and surveillance that took place

10:50

ahead of the incident.

10:52

And what's the end result? Two

10:55

little girls and a little boy, ages eight and nine,

10:58

were killed. As were three adult

11:00

staff and faculty, we're all in their

11:02

early 60s. Joining

11:04

us now is the mayor of Nashville, Tennessee,

11:06

John Cooper. Mayor Cooper, thank you so much for being with

11:08

us tonight. I'm so sorry for what's happened in your city today.

11:12

Well, thank you for having me. This

11:14

is our worst day. Nashville

11:16

has had challenges and tragedies before,

11:19

but we've gone through

11:21

that, but this is our worst day. resilient

11:23

city, but it's a shock

11:26

to have to add our name to the list of

11:28

places where there have been

11:30

mass killings of children. What

11:33

can you tell us about the victims?

11:36

One of the things that was not clear

11:38

in the immediate aftermath, but seems

11:40

clearer now, is that while there

11:43

were six people shot and killed,

11:45

three little kids and three adults, it doesn't

11:47

seem like there were other

11:49

people who who were injured, who were hurt

11:52

and in need of care afterwards. Can

11:54

you tell us anything about the logistics

11:56

of this, about the victims, about what you know

11:58

about the circumstances. of

12:00

these deaths? Well, the

12:03

police are working hard. I suspect either tonight

12:05

or tomorrow they'll be releasing

12:07

body camera footage and maybe some

12:10

footage from the school as

12:12

they're trying to establish the timeline.

12:15

The three adults were two

12:19

teachers and one custodian

12:23

and then the three children. But

12:25

the order in which this happened and

12:28

how it was this particular six, I

12:30

don't think is established.

12:33

I've been told tonight, Mr. Mayor,

12:35

that you were able to speak with President Biden

12:37

earlier this evening. I'm wondering if you can

12:40

tell us anything about

12:41

that and what he's been able to offer. Well, I

12:43

appreciate the president's call. I mean,

12:45

it's a tragedy. It's

12:47

one, as he said, he's far too familiar with.

12:50

He's spent a lot of his lifetime

12:52

in politics dealing with this

12:55

increasing epidemic of gun violence,

12:57

where guns and gun violence

13:00

is the number one cause of childhood

13:04

death, which is just shocking and needs

13:06

to be changed. I'm grateful.

13:09

He was very knowledgeable about

13:11

the amazing response time by our

13:13

police department,

13:15

which arrived quickly and

13:18

was very effective with the shooter. It

13:20

could have been much worse,

13:22

clearly. And

13:24

again, our very brave officers

13:27

rushed to gunfire and engaged

13:29

the shooter. And

13:33

we're grateful for that because it could

13:35

have been much worse in a school filled

13:38

with so many children.

13:40

Mayor Cooper, is there anything that you and Nashville

13:42

need tonight that you don't have?

13:47

Well, we

13:49

need to support each other. I mean, Nashville is a

13:51

resilient city. We're a welcoming city. It's

13:54

a shock that has happened here. there's

13:58

a mental health challenge.

13:59

I've gotten to speak to a lot of mayors

14:02

from around the country today where this has

14:04

happened in their cities. And then

14:06

one thing that they say is the residual

14:09

mental health needs of the community are underestimated.

14:12

The mental health needs of the officers

14:15

are underestimated. It is far

14:17

more toxic and

14:20

traumatic than

14:23

you even fear that it will be. So

14:26

in the weeks and months ahead, your thoughts

14:28

and prayers, and then again, I

14:30

think accepting that

14:33

a terrible, evil thing has happened,

14:35

and of course we should feel

14:37

bad about it. Mayor

14:39

John Cooper of Nashville, Tennessee, sir, thank

14:42

you for joining us on a really difficult night. The

14:44

whole country has Nashville on our thoughts tonight. Thank you.

14:47

Well, we appreciate the country having

14:50

us in those thoughts and prayers. And

14:52

again, let's just hope that we can

14:54

get beyond this epidemic of gun violence.

14:58

Thank you, sir. Good luck

15:00

to you. Thank you. As scary and

15:02

as horrifying as the scene was today in Nashville,

15:05

it was, of course, very familiar. And

15:08

it brought to mind one of the worst incidents of

15:10

gun violence anywhere in

15:12

the world. It's been a little over 10

15:15

years since a young man with an assault rifle

15:17

killed 26 people at

15:19

Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.

15:21

Most of them just little kids, most of them little first graders.

15:24

One of them was six-year-old Dylan Hockley. In

15:27

the aftermath of the Sandy Hook tragedy,

15:29

Dylan's mom, Nicole,

15:31

summoned the strength to become a leading

15:34

voice on the issue of gun violence. She heads up

15:36

Sandy Hook Promise, which is a nonprofit

15:38

that's dedicated to trying to

15:40

prevent violence in schools and

15:43

in homes and in communities in the most practical

15:46

ways. reached more than 18 million

15:49

people with violence prevention programs.

15:52

More than 23,000 schools and youth organizations

15:55

nationwide. They have reached tons and

15:57

tons of people trying again to find...

15:59

and practical solutions

16:02

to stop this epidemic. After

16:04

the shooting in Nashville today, Nicole

16:06

Hockley said this online.

16:09

She said, quote, we have the solutions,

16:12

yet we mostly don't use them. Why? Because

16:14

too many people love guns more than children and

16:17

fight against solid measures, praying for

16:19

the families, pissed off

16:22

at cowards and profiteers. Joining

16:25

us now is Nicole Hockley. She's co-founder and CEO

16:27

of Sandy Hook Promise.

16:28

Ms. Hockley, it is nice to

16:30

see you. I'm sorry that it's under terrible

16:33

circumstances. Thank you for taking time to be with us tonight.

16:36

Thank you, Rachel. It's always good to speak

16:38

to you, but always under awful

16:40

situations. Yeah. Let

16:42

me ask you to expound a little

16:44

bit on what you said today in the immediate

16:46

aftermath of this news.

16:48

You said we have solutions. We don't

16:50

usually, we mostly don't use them. You

16:52

said you were praying for these

16:54

families, but you'd said you're angry. You said you're pissed

16:56

off at the cowards and profiteers. What did you mean by

16:59

that?

17:00

Exactly that. I

17:03

am so heartbroken and continue to be heartbroken

17:06

every single day. There have been

17:08

so many incidences of gun violence, so many

17:10

incidents of school shootings. My

17:14

heart just can't take it anymore, and now I'm

17:16

just really pissed

17:18

off. There are too many people that just

17:21

want to debate about this and want to

17:23

talk about why we shouldn't talk

17:25

about it now or that now isn't

17:27

the time, or that we need to protect

17:29

gun owners first. And I honestly

17:32

think that the majority of gun owners want to

17:34

see these solutions too. They

17:36

probably purchased their guns to protect their families.

17:39

They don't want gun violence. They don't

17:41

want school shootings. And

17:43

neither does anyone else. So why don't we

17:46

take the solutions that are on the plate right now,

17:48

such as safe storage, such as

17:50

background checks, such as magazine

17:53

limits, or even assault weapons bans, and do

17:55

something about it rather than this constant

17:58

endless cycle of conversation

18:00

that actually doesn't go anywhere when we

18:02

know these solutions work and we know it's what

18:04

people want. Those

18:07

practical measures that you just described,

18:09

I'm thinking particularly the first three before

18:11

the assault weapons ban, safe storage,

18:14

background checks, magazine limits, the

18:17

public opinion polling on that shows that

18:19

not only do Americans want those things

18:21

and support those kinds of practical solutions

18:24

in overwhelming numbers, most gun

18:26

owners do too. And

18:28

that's been true for a long time. And so I guess

18:30

I'm wondering as somebody who's been working on this again

18:32

in very practical ways, do you see

18:35

any distance closing

18:36

between the views of Americans,

18:38

including gun owners, and the advocacy

18:40

groups and the politicians who won't allow

18:43

for practical solutions like those?

18:46

I think the distance is closing. And

18:48

we saw a big gap in that decrease

18:51

last year with the passage of the Bipartisan

18:53

Safer Communities Act, where we saw that Congress

18:56

could come together from both sides and

18:58

agree on a set

19:00

of common sense legislation that would prevent

19:02

violence and in particular gun violence. However,

19:05

it's not enough. We know there's still

19:07

much more we need to do. My organization

19:09

continues to focus on teaching the signs,

19:12

how do you recognize someone who is going

19:14

into crisis or who is in danger of hurting

19:16

themselves or someone else and taking action.

19:19

But we also need the legislation to support and enforce

19:21

that. And I still think there are

19:24

far too many

19:25

politicians in particular

19:27

that are focused

19:29

on

19:30

their careers more than about being on the

19:32

right side of history and doing the right things by

19:34

kids.

19:35

That needs to change. And also

19:38

there is still a gun

19:40

industry that is more focused on profits

19:43

and measures. You know, we still hear

19:45

them talk about more people need guns. That's

19:47

the way to prevent

19:48

bad people with guns. That's the way to

19:50

prevent criminals. Not every shooter is

19:52

a criminal. They don't start that way.

19:55

start as a normal person and through a series

19:57

of circumstances, it

19:59

asks... into violence, the difference

20:02

is they have access to firearms.

20:04

So if we are better about how

20:07

we ensure is someone capable

20:09

of having a firearm, are they mentally

20:11

able to have that firearm? Are they in crisis

20:13

or not?

20:14

And stop thinking about money, stop

20:17

thinking about careers, think about your children.

20:20

How do you want their school experience to be?

20:22

Do you want them to come home every single

20:24

day? If you don't care, then continue

20:26

on the path you are. If you care at all,

20:28

then you need to do

20:29

something about it. Nicole

20:32

Hockley, the co-founder and CEO of

20:34

Sandy Hook Promise, who knows of what

20:36

she speaks. Um, I mean, thank

20:38

you so much for taking time to be here tonight, Nicole. It's,

20:41

it's, uh, it is always good to see you. Um,

20:43

I swear you'll be back here and have your time soon. Thank

20:46

you, Rachel. All right, more ahead here tonight. We'll

20:48

be right back. Stay with us.

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22:06

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22:08

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last call on your favorite podcast platform

22:13

today.

22:14

So this is just about

22:17

like roughly one minute of video

22:19

that I want to show you. So this is your cue.

22:21

If you're like watching the dishes or doing something else and

22:23

not watching or just this is the part you should look at

22:25

this. Let's go ahead and put it up here. You'll

22:28

see in the video, there's this woman

22:31

and she's holding that blue flag

22:33

with the stars on it. That is the flag of

22:35

the EU, that's the European Union flag.

22:39

You can see there's this young man at her feet that got

22:41

knocked down, just blowing across the pavement. A

22:43

water cannon that's being aimed at them and then

22:45

this... You

22:48

see her start to get help. The guy in the red cap

22:50

comes forward first to help her stand.

22:53

So she won't be knocked down and pushed back by

22:55

the water cannon. But then you see there's these other

22:57

people, as they realize she's

22:59

still standing,

23:01

that she's not afraid. I'm

23:03

sure she is afraid, but she's still waving

23:06

that flag. She's refusing to be pushed back. And

23:09

when they realize she's not backing down, more

23:11

people

23:12

join her and link arms with each

23:14

other around her to hold her up.

23:17

And it's mostly men, it's at least one other woman,

23:20

and they're holding onto each other so they can keep

23:22

standing against this water cannon. and

23:25

the people in front get knocked down by the water cannon,

23:28

but they're standing together. Ultimately, there's enough of them

23:30

so that she's able to stay standing to keep

23:32

waving that flag. And

23:34

eventually,

23:35

faced with more and more people coming

23:37

forward to hold on to each other in this group, that they can no

23:39

longer knock down. Eventually, the police

23:44

stop. They go from trying to knock down

23:46

this one woman with the flag to turning

23:48

it off. They stop when everybody comes

23:51

forward to back her up.

23:54

This was earlier this month in Georgia.

23:56

Georgia the country, not Georgia the state.

23:58

is in their capital city. to Blisi. And

24:02

these protesters, you should know,

24:04

they won. Not just

24:08

that woman who kept waving that flag, but the protesters

24:11

that she was with, they won. Russia

24:13

has been trying to exert more control over all

24:16

the countries in the former Soviet Union, including Georgia.

24:18

And Russia basically told the Georgian

24:20

government that they should pass a law like Putin did

24:23

in Russia back in 2012. It's

24:26

called the Foreign Agent Law, and it's basically

24:28

designed to to shut down civil society, let the

24:30

government close down organizations

24:32

and advocacy groups and news organizations and

24:36

prosecute people for belonging to them

24:38

if those organizations criticize

24:40

the government or if they do anything else that the government

24:42

doesn't like. Putin did this in

24:44

Russia in 2012 to shut down civil society

24:47

in his country,

24:48

to get rid of his rivals and public

24:50

critics, to shut down all dissent.

24:53

Now he's trying to get other countries that he wants

24:56

to be in the Russian orbit, including Georgia.

24:58

He's trying to get those other countries to do things like

25:00

this too. And

25:02

the problem in Tbilisi is that the people in Georgia

25:04

don't want that. They

25:07

don't want to be some Russian outpost.

25:09

By a large margin, they want to be part

25:11

of the West. They want to join NATO,

25:14

for example. They want to join the European Union.

25:16

Hence this woman waving the EU

25:19

flag.

25:21

And when Russia told the Georgian

25:23

government they needed to pass this new law that

25:26

would essentially get rid of civil society

25:28

and journalism in their country. The

25:31

people of Georgia poured out into the streets

25:33

night after night

25:34

for protests. And

25:37

it was peaceful protests. They did spray paint

25:39

things like no to Putin and F

25:41

Putin everywhere, both in Georgian and in

25:44

English. Georgian politicians,

25:46

even from the ruling party, started coming out and saying

25:48

that they were with

25:49

the protesters, they were not with the government on

25:51

this. They did not support this Russian pro-authoritarian

25:54

law. And in the face

25:56

of those big protests, eventually that government

25:59

in that country decided to they couldn't bear it.

26:02

And so they dropped the bill. They dropped the bill the

26:04

government gave up. They

26:06

also freed all the people who had been

26:08

arrested in those big, peaceful protests

26:11

in the streets of the Georgian capital. This

26:15

was less than three weeks ago. It worked.

26:17

The people did it. They

26:20

stopped that law that would have undone

26:22

civil society, voluntary organization, to

26:24

advocacy groups journalism. That

26:26

was just this month. That was earlier this month in the nation

26:28

of Georgia.

26:30

Here's what that same dynamic looks like in the nation

26:33

of Israel. We have been covering

26:35

this for a few weeks here now on the show. These have been

26:37

the largest mass demonstrations,

26:39

the largest popular protests in the history

26:42

of that country

26:42

since it was founded 75 years ago. The prime minister

26:46

there has been indicted on serious corruption

26:49

charges. Perhaps coincidentally,

26:51

he decided at the same time that he now

26:53

believes the court system needs to be no

26:57

longer independent. He's

26:59

decided that he wants to take control

27:01

of the judicial system now. But the

27:03

people of that country have taken to the streets

27:05

to say no. No, you cannot have

27:07

a democracy without law enforcement that is independent

27:10

and free from political control.

27:12

People turned out in the streets, in lots

27:15

of cities all over Israel in huge, unprecedented

27:18

numbers. Members of the military

27:21

said that they too objected. They said without

27:23

a real court system, without a real and independent

27:26

judiciary, they were afraid they'd be forced to

27:28

comply with unconstitutional illegal

27:30

orders, because there'd be no court system to call

27:33

those orders unconstitutional.

27:36

They therefore conveyed that there were going to be problems

27:39

in the military as well as in the streets if they went

27:41

ahead with this judicial takeover.

27:43

This weekend,

27:45

the defense minister said, said, you know what, we cannot

27:47

do this. I'm a part of this government, but

27:50

I'm in opposition now to what

27:52

the prime minister is trying to do in taking over

27:54

the legal system.

27:56

Defense Secretary C When

28:00

the prime minister fired the defense

28:02

secretary in response, people came

28:04

out overnight, last night, by the hundreds

28:06

of thousands.

28:09

And then today they turned it up even further. All

28:12

universities in the country closed. No

28:14

flights out of the country's main airport. Ports

28:17

closed. Malls closed. Stores.

28:20

Fast food chains. Libraries. Museums.

28:23

All closed. Main roads blocked. Hospitals.

28:26

Hospitals suspended everything but emergency care. And

28:28

the diplomats went on strike. Their embassies

28:30

and consulates around the world closed.

28:33

The head of their consulate in New York quit his job

28:35

in protest. In every major city

28:37

in that country, people turned out in the streets

28:39

waving flags, singing the national anthem,

28:41

saying, hands off the judiciary, hands

28:44

off the court system. Our legal system

28:46

stays independent. You will not take it

28:48

over. We are not

28:51

giving up this pillar of what makes us a

28:53

democracy.

28:54

They

28:56

also have for now won. Today,

28:59

they won. The prime minister delayed

29:02

and delayed and delayed the speech he was supposed to make to

29:04

the public about how he was going ahead with this

29:06

plan no matter what. But then finally,

29:08

he did give that speech and he announced, okay,

29:10

actually we're shelving it. They're

29:13

not going to force it through like they were planning, at least

29:15

not yet.

29:16

So

29:18

it worked in both places. Less

29:21

than three weeks apart. One

29:24

place today in Israel, one place earlier

29:26

this month in Georgia, people

29:29

in the hundreds of thousands saying no

29:32

really loudly. I mean, they honestly

29:34

ran a clinic on what it means to say no

29:36

to authoritarian-style takeovers,

29:39

to stick up for your democracy, to know what

29:41

makes your democracy real, and to say,

29:43

no, you guys cannot take that away. We will defend

29:46

our democracy. We will defend it. It is not yours

29:48

to take. It is ours collectively. And

29:50

we say no.

29:58

on democracies

30:01

everywhere, authoritarian governments are rising everywhere,

30:04

but also everywhere there

30:06

are citizens of democratic countries who get

30:08

it and who aren't giving it up without

30:11

a fight.

30:13

And the secret, of course, is that when you fight, you very

30:16

often win. And when you don't fight,

30:18

you always lose.

30:20

Tonight,

30:23

in the state of Georgia, here in the United

30:25

States, Republicans have just

30:28

within in the past hour, finalized legislation

30:30

that will allow them to remove from office

30:33

the prosecutor,

30:34

the Georgia prosecutor in Fulton County

30:36

who was leading a criminal investigation that

30:38

could result in criminal charges against former President

30:41

Donald Trump. The Republican

30:43

governor in Georgia, Brian Kemp, has said he supports

30:46

this legislation. He is therefore expected to sign

30:48

it.

30:51

In the face of the leader of their party

30:53

facing potential indictment,

30:55

Georgia Republicans have decided for the first

30:57

time in their state the judicial system

30:59

will be subject to a new partisan

31:02

test. The Republican controlled legislature

31:04

tonight has awarded itself the

31:07

ability to remove prosecutors

31:09

who bring cases they do not like.

31:12

And this is

31:14

not in Georgia the country, this is Georgia here.

31:18

And

31:20

I put this up alongside what's just happened

31:22

in Georgia, what's just happened in Israel, Because I do think

31:24

sometimes it's easier to see the pattern of these things

31:26

when you see them far away, when you see them happening in

31:29

other countries,

31:30

especially when they happen in totally disparate

31:32

parts of the world. But

31:35

this one, this one's happening to us here at home. The

31:37

question, honestly, is

31:39

not why Republicans

31:42

are trying to dismantle this part of our legal

31:44

system. The

31:46

question for us is whether anybody's going to stand up for that

31:48

part of our legal system and try to save it.

31:51

ahead tonight.

31:53

Stay with us.

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32:59

Last week, the office of the

33:01

New York District Attorney who's investigating former

33:03

President Donald Trump, that office

33:05

was surrounded by an intense police presence

33:07

and of course a full-time media scrum. And

33:10

in the midst of that, one sitting Republican

33:12

U.S. Senator said that Alvin

33:14

Bragg, that New York prosecutor, should himself

33:17

be jailed. He should be incarcerated.

33:21

The DA's office also reportedly received

33:23

three straight days of bomb threats last week.

33:27

That same DA was also last week mailed

33:29

an envelope containing some unknown

33:31

white powder, which turned out to be not something

33:33

that would kill you, but they didn't know that until it was tested,

33:35

and it was accompanied by a death

33:38

threat with no fewer than 13

33:40

exclamation points on it. Amid

33:43

all of that, the near prosecutor,

33:46

Alvin Bragg, sent a note to his staff saying,

33:48

we do not tolerate attempts to intimidate our

33:50

office or threaten the rule of law in

33:52

New York. On

33:55

that point of intimidation, if

33:57

this prosecutor's office and all

33:59

prosecutors officer's office really don't tolerate

34:02

attempts at intimidation. It's

34:04

worth asking what the implications of that might be

34:06

and for whom. What does that mean in practical

34:08

terms? Because the threats

34:11

to prosecutor Alvin Bragg and his office

34:13

in New York, they're not arising out

34:15

of the mist. They're not rising out of some unknowable

34:18

miasma.

34:19

These threats are coming because the subject of one

34:21

of his ongoing criminal investigations appears

34:24

to be trying to stoke these threats. former

34:26

president Donald Trump last week warned that

34:28

if he did get charged by Alvin

34:30

Bragg's office, the result would be, quote,

34:33

death and destruction.

34:35

He then called Mr. Bragg a degenerate

34:37

psychopath. In another post,

34:40

he complained, quote, our country is being destroyed

34:42

as they tell us to be peaceful.

34:45

And just in case that was still too subtle,

34:47

he then posted this. A

34:51

juxtaposed photo of Trump wielding

34:53

a baseball bat right next to Alvin

34:55

Bragg's head. We

34:58

have no idea when or even

35:00

if the Manhattan DA's office is

35:02

going to charge former President Trump with anything. But

35:05

in the meantime, as Alvin Bragg says his

35:07

office does not and cannot

35:09

tolerate intimidation,

35:11

this all feels pretty intimidating at a

35:14

very practical level.

35:17

And then there's the broader issue of what happens

35:19

when the leader of a political party starts explicitly

35:22

endorsing violence against the government,

35:24

at least pretty explicitly endorsing it.

35:27

This weekend, the same former president

35:30

held a rally in Waco, Texas on

35:32

the 30th anniversary of a federal siege

35:34

that's been invoked for decades by the

35:36

white power movement and the violent ultra right

35:39

as a justification for citizens

35:41

using violence against the U.S. government. he

35:44

combined that staging with

35:46

an extended homage at that rally to

35:49

people who have committed violence against the government,

35:51

when he praised people at that rally

35:53

who are in prison because of their alleged participation

35:56

in the attack on the U.S. Capitol on January

35:57

6th.

36:00

raising people for committing violence against

36:02

the government,

36:03

putting his rally at the site of a place that for

36:05

decades has been used to justify violence

36:07

against the government, saying that the government

36:09

is a degenerate psychopath that's

36:12

going to bring charges against him and that will result in

36:15

death and destruction. When you put those things together,

36:17

that's

36:19

the sort of thing that makes you want to call in the folks who

36:21

are experts in this kind of thing. Experts

36:24

particularly in where it leads. Joining

36:28

us now is New York University history professor

36:30

Ruth Ben-Giat. She is the author of the book

36:33

Strong Men from Mussolini to the Present.

36:35

She also writes a sub-stack newsletter called Lucid,

36:38

which is about threats to democracy. Professor Ben-Giat,

36:40

thank you so much for being with us. Sure. Let

36:43

me first just ask you if you feel like I have any

36:44

of that the wrong way around, if juxtaposing

36:47

these items, looking at these as sort of concerning

36:49

things in a pattern seems off to you or

36:51

inappropriate. No, not at all. It's

36:55

all one part of the authoritarian playbook.

36:58

The people who authoritarians go

37:00

after, because they're all very corrupt, are

37:03

prosecutors, judges. They

37:05

try and link them. The modern playbook is you

37:07

link them to George Soros, you link them

37:09

to degenerates. Putin

37:12

will trump up sex crime

37:14

charges so they can be seen as deviants.

37:17

They also want

37:19

to poison in the public's mind

37:21

journalists. anyone who

37:24

can prosecute or harm

37:26

or expose the corruption and crimes

37:28

of these individuals, Trump being one of them, becomes

37:31

a target.

37:33

And at the same time, you need

37:35

to kind of prep

37:37

the public to be ready to defend

37:39

you.

37:40

It's been very interesting to me that

37:43

Trump started talking about this possible indictment

37:46

and made a spectacle out of it because

37:49

it feeds his victimhood complex.

37:52

It's very important that he can

37:54

be the victim of the deep state and

37:57

the roster of enemies has to keep expanding,

37:59

right?

37:59

at CPAC and

38:02

then at Waco, the, you know, the enemies

38:04

list keeps, is longer and longer.

38:08

And in fact, at Waco, the rally,

38:10

he had placards with witch

38:12

hunt passed out. Pre-printed

38:15

placards. Yes, so that they would get on TV.

38:18

And so it's very important

38:21

to, for his bonding with the public to

38:23

be the victim

38:25

and the victim of the deep state.

38:28

It's also lucrative since this

38:30

idea of his possible indictment came

38:32

out. He's raised over $1.5 million. In

38:36

terms of the importance of him defining

38:38

himself as a victim, he's

38:40

effectively making a case to his

38:42

supporters that extreme

38:44

action is justified to rescue him, to

38:46

stand up for him, to stop his persecutors, who are

38:49

terrible people.

38:51

How does violence fit into that? the

38:56

January 6th example, the people who have been

38:58

prosecuted for their role and bring

39:00

violence to bear that day, are

39:03

having to contend with the consequences of that in the criminal

39:05

justice system. He's lionizing them

39:07

and talking about them, too, as having been unfairly

39:10

persecuted. How does the threat

39:12

of violence, the threat of political

39:14

violence in his name, how is

39:17

that evolving now as he faces

39:19

potential indictment?

39:20

Yeah, I've been tracking this for years, and

39:24

I wrote a report for the January 6 committee

39:26

on how Trump,

39:28

since 2015,

39:29

he used his rallies as

39:32

radicalization sites, and

39:34

he did what all authoritarians have done

39:36

since Mussolini and Hitler. He wanted

39:39

to change the public's perception of violence,

39:42

because in order to have an extremist movement

39:45

and a private army, which is basically

39:47

what he and also Bolsonaro, today

39:49

you maybe We can't get the military, so

39:52

you have a civilian army of thugs,

39:54

of extremists. So to have people see

39:56

violence as not repugnant, you have to have people see violence as

39:58

not repugnant. You have...

39:59

have to change its perception. You have

40:02

to change the idea that perhaps

40:04

violence can be morally justified,

40:07

necessary, and even patriotic.

40:09

And so Trump was already doing this.

40:12

And now there's a huge push

40:14

with the help of Fox and the GOP

40:18

because they're all involved in this criminal cover-up

40:20

of January 6 violence. And

40:22

so now at Waco, the

40:24

people who are sitting

40:26

in jail for January 6, Now

40:28

there's the January 6th choir

40:31

and their patriots and Marjorie Taylor

40:33

Greene is there calling them patriots. She visited

40:35

them in prison. It's a thin

40:37

line though, because you have to say both, they did nothing wrong

40:40

and also their violence, to

40:42

the extent that they committed violence, was justified.

40:45

I mean, that's a double-sided argument.

40:47

Yes, and it's been like that since fascism. On

40:49

the one hand, the strongman gives

40:52

license to be violent.

40:54

He tells people that it's justified

40:57

and that he will reward violence.

40:59

On the other hand, violence has to be

41:01

sanitized. It has to be

41:05

made palatable to the broader public.

41:08

So they're always walking that line between,

41:11

inciting violence

41:14

and also having to whitewash

41:16

it and massage it. And that's what

41:19

Trump is doing now, many authoritarians

41:21

have done.

41:23

Ruth Ben-Giat is a professor of history at NYU.

41:26

She's the author of the book Strong Men. Her

41:28

sub-stack newsletter is called Lucid. Professor,

41:30

it's good to have you here. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

41:32

All right. We'll be right back. Stay

41:33

with us.

41:37

Forgive

41:39

me, but I have to do this.

41:43

And yeah, the headline there is a reference

41:45

to cat litter. I'm sorry. You just have to stick with me

41:47

here, okay? All right.

41:49

Today, a Trump-aligned

41:52

super PAC posted this shiny,

41:54

official-looking poll that

41:56

looks so, so good for a

41:58

former president.

41:59

Donald Trump. As you can see, the poll

42:02

has him trumpeting Florida Governor Ron DeSantis

42:04

for the Republican presidential nomination. Very,

42:06

very exciting for them, right? If

42:09

you look closely, you can see that the source

42:11

for this poll is, oh, cat

42:14

turd 2.

42:15

Congratulations,

42:18

sir. Who among us has not longed for the day

42:20

in which we can claim victory in the acclaimed

42:22

cat turd 2 presidential

42:26

Now, I have to tell you, we

42:29

are advised that CatTurd 2 apparently

42:31

didn't go out and like hire

42:33

a polling company. This is literally just a Twitter

42:36

poll conducted by the Twitter

42:38

user CatTurd 2.

42:40

But nevertheless, at his campaign rally

42:43

in Waco, Texas this weekend, the former president

42:45

himself apparently got upset

42:47

that his staff had put up on the Jumbotron

42:50

a real poll because what he wanted

42:52

to see instead was those Cat

42:54

Turd 2 numbers. That was the

42:56

poll he wanted them to show instead.

43:00

You know, Cat Turd 2 does

43:02

really seem to appeal to Trump at a visceral way.

43:05

And I will note that Mike Pence is almost certainly

43:07

not coming back as Trump's running mate.

43:11

And I know it doesn't totally roll off the tongue, but

43:13

the t-shirts would be incredible, right?

43:16

Can't you vote Trump cat

43:18

turned two for a fresh step? Scoop

43:21

away your worries. Now

43:24

with less clumping.

43:31

All

43:33

right, that's gonna do it for me tonight. A special shout

43:35

out to Elisa and Bilgie in the makeup

43:37

room here at MSNBC

43:40

tonight. They had no idea that I was here

43:42

and I walked in to get

43:43

makeup done like two minutes before the show. They

43:46

had nothing prepared. They scrambled into action

43:48

and made me not look like I'd been Nixon buried

43:51

and dug up. They're amazing. Bill G and Alisa,

43:53

you guys are absolutely freaking

43:56

amazing. I'm sorry about the cross wires

43:58

tonight. surprised you. Thank

44:00

you for all you do.

44:29

News Now.