0:00

I'm not a person

0:02

that's like, let's throw out the

0:04

classics. It's let's move forward. Let's

0:07

disrupt the canon. Some

0:10

of these universal themes, some of these

0:12

ingredients that we love, how do I

0:14

remix them into a new stew? Danielle

0:19

Clayton is a lover of the

0:21

fantastical, whimsical, and wonderful world of

0:23

magic. She always has been. But

0:26

growing up, the harrowing tales

0:28

of dragons, witches, and wizards

0:30

were missing one key character.

0:33

Her. So I was trying

0:36

to read all of the fantastical, magical

0:38

stories, but looking for my

0:41

family, looking for magic

0:43

that felt like it came out of my community, and

0:45

I couldn't find it. And I think

0:48

it just made me hunt for it, and then

0:50

it made me want to create it, because

0:52

I couldn't find exactly what I was looking

0:54

for. Danielle is an

0:56

acclaimed author known for her works,

0:58

including The Bells series, The Controversy

1:01

series, and Shattered Midnight.

1:04

She is also the co-author of several

1:06

novels, such as Blackout and Tiny Pretty

1:08

Things. She's also

1:10

the co-founder and incoming CEO

1:12

of the influential organization We

1:14

Need Diverse Books. In

1:17

this episode, Danielle traces the magic in her

1:19

books back to its roots in African folklore,

1:21

and details the challenges of stepping

1:23

out from the long shadow of Harry Potter.

1:27

She also outlines her mission to literally

1:29

hire her own squadron of diverse writers.

1:32

Yeah, she's a busy woman. My

1:35

name is Jordan Lloyd-Bookie, and this is

1:37

The Reading Culture, a show where we

1:39

speak with authors and illustrators about ways

1:42

to build a stronger culture of reading

1:44

in our communities. We dive into

1:46

their personal experiences, their inspirations, and

1:49

why their stories and ideas motivate kids to

1:51

read more. Make sure to check us out

1:53

on Instagram for giveaways at The Reading Culture

1:55

Pod, and you

1:57

can also subscribe to our newsletter

2:00

at the Reading Culture Pod. pod.com/newsletter.

2:02

All right. Onto the show. Let's

2:09

start in the beginning. Can you tell us a little bit

2:11

about what it, what it was like to grow up in

2:13

only Maryland? It was small

2:15

town. It was quaint. There

2:18

were horses and cows and

2:20

farms and farmers markets and a

2:23

cute little library and it was

2:25

super peaceful. I was lucky. My

2:27

grandparents moved out there from Washington

2:29

DC. And then

2:32

that I guess is how the

2:34

whole family got sort of out

2:36

there. They were the anchors and

2:39

it was really quiet. It was a

2:41

quiet, gentle childhood full of

2:43

books. So there wasn't much else to do.

2:47

So reading was such a huge part of my

2:49

life. When you were in those

2:51

like later years and like fifth, sixth, seventh, when you're

2:53

kind of middle school to high school, what

2:55

was your experience? Like were there other black kids

2:57

like in Olney where did you feel like you

3:00

were alone in that regard or was it like,

3:02

there were three of us are okay. Four

3:05

in your class, like in your

3:07

grade, in my grade. Yes. Okay. In my

3:09

grade. So there were about three to four

3:11

per grade. And so, and I know their

3:13

full names still to this day. And

3:18

yeah, I was a fish out of water,

3:20

but because it felt like a

3:22

bubble. I didn't understand what

3:25

that meant. I knew that I was

3:27

different, but my parents were very, very

3:29

good at anchoring me in community. So

3:32

from going down South every summer

3:34

or going to North Carolina, like

3:36

anywhere that we went, it was

3:39

family and rooted in community and

3:41

culture that. I knew exactly

3:43

who I was. I wasn't confused, but

3:45

I definitely stuck out and knew,

3:47

Oh, I'm different. And I'm different

3:49

in a particular way. But

3:52

also I have all of these things that I do

3:54

have in common. So I grew up around a

3:56

lot of other people that were fish out of

3:58

water for other reasons. So we

4:00

were all this little motley crew of

4:02

weirdos who loved books and were

4:05

ethnic and weird and had eight different kinds

4:07

of food and had different things we were

4:09

doing on the weekends. Because that's where it

4:11

shows up. That's where it shows up. It's

4:13

on the weekends, right? It's like what you're

4:15

doing. So it was just your grandparents, your

4:17

parents, you, were there other family members of

4:19

that was sort of like your core that

4:22

was out there? Yes, I have aunts and

4:24

uncles. They're all within 10 to 15 miles

4:26

of each other. So

4:28

it was sort of like the whole pocket of

4:30

both my mom's side and

4:33

my dad's side converged out

4:35

there. Are they from that area

4:37

as well? Or where is like your family? My

4:40

mom is from North Carolina and my

4:42

dad is from Mississippi. Oh,

4:44

Mississippi. That's more unusual out here. I

4:47

know, it's that deep South and we

4:49

would go every summer down to my

4:51

great-grandparents farm. My grandmother

4:53

would drive down in a Cadillac,

4:55

would be hot. I'd have

4:57

all my books in the back seat

4:59

as my legs were stuck to the

5:01

leather and we would drive down and

5:03

I would spend my summers on that

5:05

farm, no air conditioning, animals, reading

5:08

books. That's cool. That's such

5:10

a different type of grounding or

5:12

something in your childhood, I think.

5:14

Absolutely. I think it's what created

5:16

my imagination, just seeing those kinds

5:18

of things, even driving through the

5:20

deep South, whether it's Georgia, Tennessee,

5:23

Louisiana, New Orleans, Mississippi,

5:25

Alabama, just spending a lot of

5:27

time down there while

5:30

reading and reading about fantasy

5:32

kind of electrified my imagination.

5:35

Yeah. Do you want to go into that a little bit more

5:37

what that means? Sure. It's

5:39

the kids of the early, the 80s and

5:42

90s where

5:44

TV was important, but for my household,

5:46

my dad was a huge reader. So

5:48

reading was what we did, whether it

5:51

was books on tape. I

5:53

remember the sound of a tape turning. A little

5:55

bit of turnover from A side to B side

5:57

as you got to the next part of the

5:59

show. the story. And I went to the

6:01

library every day. And I

6:03

also got to go to the bookstore

6:06

every Saturday morning with my dad, Crown

6:08

Bookstore, which R.I.P. makes

6:10

me really sad. And the comic

6:12

book store. So reading was what I

6:14

was doing. I would go under my

6:17

grandmother's table, wherever there was

6:19

a table. And there was like those, what

6:21

is it? It's got the lacy sort

6:23

of table. Yeah, like a sheath sort of

6:25

over that. Sheath, exactly. And I

6:27

would hide under there with pillows and

6:29

a blanket, snacks and have my books.

6:31

And the sun would come through that

6:34

little doily tablecloth. And I would just hide under

6:36

there and read. And so I would just do

6:39

that all summer. And they used to have those

6:41

Pizza Hut challenges. Oh, yeah, book it. Book

6:44

it. I would win them. You crushed

6:46

those? Crush them. Got those personal pan

6:48

pizzas. Loved it. I mean, they were

6:50

full of grease, but it was delicious.

6:53

And I feel like books were just

6:55

what built my imagination. I would read

6:57

anything and everything I could get my

6:59

hands on. I just love the act

7:01

of reading. I loved

7:03

all different kinds of books, whether

7:05

it was scary books and fantasy

7:07

or historical fiction. I just liked

7:09

the transport of nature of

7:12

reading. Yeah, Gregory McGuire. He called

7:14

it reading travel of the mind. I

7:16

love that phrase. And his

7:18

point he was making was that like you sort of begin in that

7:21

way as a kid when you can't really get

7:23

out as much or whatever. Like you're bound to

7:25

wherever you've been taken. You can travel

7:28

with your mind. And then he was on the other side

7:30

of that now and older and talking about how it's like

7:33

similarly, if you don't feel like or can't move

7:35

around as much, it's like you get that same

7:38

experience. It's beautiful. And

7:40

I also remember like my heart beating

7:42

and racing while reading. And that

7:45

kind of experience is something

7:47

I constantly hunt. It's that

7:49

little girl experience of feeling

7:51

so enraptured by a book

7:54

that I'm sweating or my heart is

7:56

racing or I'm afraid. And I'm having

7:58

an emotional experience while reading. And

8:00

that to me is so powerful. It just

8:02

means that you're locked in. Yeah. And you're

8:04

loving it. Oh yeah. It's like I feel

8:07

like my entire reading life is searching for

8:09

that feeling. And what about

8:11

New Orleans? Can you talk a little bit about

8:14

that? Your Bells series is set

8:16

in a world named Orleans. It got shattered midnight.

8:18

It's like 1920s New Orleans. We've got the

8:21

Conjurers from the Marvelers. So what's wondering

8:24

what importance the real city has

8:26

to you? I do love it

8:28

there. And I have some cousins that live there

8:31

now. But I think that when I was a

8:33

young person and my grandparents, we would be shipped

8:35

off. I don't know what my parents were doing

8:37

during the summer, but we were all on the

8:39

grid. They were living a great life. Yes. And

8:41

I will repeat this if I have a child.

8:44

I'm like, here's your grandchild. I'm out of here

8:46

for six weeks. And when we

8:48

would drive down to the country, that's

8:50

what my grandparents would say, sometimes they

8:52

would take day trips into New Orleans

8:54

to gamble. You know, people like to

8:56

gamble. And I just remember sitting

8:59

in the back of that Cadillac

9:02

and looking out the window at

9:04

this swampy, weird, loud, musical, electric

9:06

city when I'm like eight, nine,

9:09

10, 11, and 12. And

9:11

I think that it really just

9:14

stuck in my imagination. It started to haunt

9:17

me that this place feels so strange. Why

9:19

are the people, the dead people buried above

9:21

ground? Why does my grandmother tell me to

9:23

hold my breath and put a penny in

9:25

my shoe when we go past a graveyard?

9:27

It was like little things like that, that

9:29

when we would go down south and go

9:31

into New Orleans for the day or two,

9:33

that started to like, I don't know, I

9:36

think I'm just re-toiling soil

9:38

that was planted when

9:40

I was the age

9:42

of my characters. Those are the

9:45

things that stick with me now as I've gotten

9:47

older. It's what I remember. And I

9:49

remember going into New Orleans and it felt magical.

9:52

It felt like I had left the United States. And

9:55

I think that is why I keep

9:57

finding myself coming back. And I think New Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans,

9:59

New Orleans, New Orleans, and sort of the

10:01

southern United States, that's my anchor. ["The

10:03

Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The

10:07

Star-Spangled Banner"]

10:10

They say that people could fly. Say

10:12

that long ago in Africa, some of

10:14

the people knew magic. And

10:17

they would walk up on the air like

10:19

climbing up on a gate. And they flew

10:21

like blackbirds over the fields, black,

10:24

shiny wings flapping against the blue up

10:26

there. Then, many of

10:28

the people were captured for slavery.

10:32

The ones that could fly shed their wings. They

10:34

couldn't take their wings across the water on the slave ships.

10:37

Too crowded, don't you know? The

10:40

folks were full of misery then. Got sick

10:42

with the up and down of the sea. So

10:44

they forgot about flying. When they

10:46

could no longer breathe, the sweet scent of Africa.

10:49

Say the people who could fly kept their power.

10:52

Although they shed their wings, they kept their secret magic

10:54

in the land of slavery. They

10:57

looked the same as the other people from

10:59

Africa who had been coming over, who

11:02

had dark skin. Say you

11:04

couldn't tell anymore one who could fly

11:06

from one who couldn't. ["The

11:09

Star-Spangled Banner"] The

11:12

People Could Fly is a remarkable

11:14

collection by Victoria Hamilton, featuring 24

11:17

retellings of black American folk tales.

11:20

The passage in question is from its

11:22

titular story, The People Could Fly. The

11:25

story narrates the plight of enslaved

11:28

African Americans who, once captured, lose

11:30

their magical ability to fly. It

11:33

is only when an old man reminds

11:35

them of their forgotten magic that they

11:37

regain this extraordinary power and soar to

11:39

freedom. The theme of

11:41

reclaiming lost magic is the

11:44

direct inspiration for Danielle's magic-filled

11:46

Controvers series. I remember

11:48

sort of this juxtaposition of flying

11:51

and being stuck. And

11:53

I remember this idea of magic

11:55

being taken from you. And it

11:57

was like a beautiful metaphor. I

12:00

was grappling as a young person with,

12:02

how did our family get here? They

12:04

do all those projects in school, especially

12:06

in elementary school and family history. Oh,

12:08

where did your family come from? And

12:11

all of the Black American children who are

12:13

related to American chattel slavery

12:16

have to grapple with, uh-oh, what

12:19

happened? And how do I talk about

12:21

it? And this, it's

12:23

a beautiful picture book, a beautiful

12:25

folklore. I sort of contextualized

12:28

it in a very beautiful way. And it

12:30

is probably the anchor and the heart of

12:33

my Marvelers universe, of the Controvers.

12:35

Like, it is where I started

12:38

when thinking about how do you make magic

12:40

from this. It's the heart of it. It's

12:43

the first seed. Oh, can you go into

12:45

a little more? In

12:47

the, without spoilers for the Controvers

12:49

and these novels, there's this idea

12:51

of there are these Controvers that

12:54

were left behind when the Marvelers

12:56

decided to leave the non-magical

12:58

world behind and live in the skies and

13:00

build their magic school in their three cities

13:02

that travel all over the world. And

13:05

there is a precarious relationship between the

13:08

Conjur folk and the Marvelers. And

13:10

it does relate a lot to

13:12

this idea of movement and flying

13:14

and moving out of your current

13:16

situation. I kept thinking about

13:19

magic and what happens to magic when you have

13:21

to move. How does it change? And

13:24

the Conjurer magic is a crossing magic,

13:27

right? Crossing across lots of

13:29

different ways through into the essence of

13:31

plants and animals, crossing between life and

13:33

death, because they cross the oceans. And

13:36

as you get deeper into the series and

13:38

you learn about why the Marvelers can move

13:40

all around the world, you're going

13:42

to unearth some secrets that are related to the

13:45

Conjurers and what they can do. And

13:47

what their magic and how it's rooted in this

13:50

idea of flying and movement. Yeah,

13:53

that's fascinating. And really, like, yeah, everybody

13:55

needs to read your books because now

13:58

I need to go back and read Virginia. Hamilton.

14:00

It's such a gift that your

14:02

family gave you that book and thank

14:04

God for that book and like the,

14:07

you know, a handful that were

14:09

there. Absolutely. And because I

14:12

was looking for magic specifically,

14:14

Virginia Hamilton had a few

14:16

books and she collected folk

14:18

tales and magical stories

14:20

that were rooted in the Black American

14:22

diaspora. And that was the first time

14:25

I thought, oh, we

14:27

can be magical too. This isn't just, you

14:29

know, I'm reading the Chronicles of Narnia about

14:31

four British, white British children who go into

14:34

a wardrobe. Still getting into it, but it's

14:36

like, you know, and I love it, but

14:38

I'm like, well, where are the other people, you know,

14:40

where are the people that look like me? And I

14:42

couldn't at the time in

14:45

those like late 80s, early 90s, I

14:48

couldn't find magical stories that were transportive.

14:50

I could find folklore and that was

14:52

great. And that was the stepping stone,

14:54

but I was really filling my well

14:56

with magical stories that

14:58

didn't have anything to do with my community

15:01

or my culture. So

15:03

I was trying to read all of the

15:06

fantastical magical stories, but

15:08

looking for my family, looking

15:10

for magic that felt like it

15:13

came out of my community and I couldn't find

15:15

it. And I think it just

15:17

made me hunt for it. And then it made

15:19

me want to create it because I

15:21

couldn't find exactly what I was looking

15:24

for. And create her own, she

15:26

did. Furthermore, Danielle didn't hesitate

15:28

to call out the most iconic titles

15:30

in the genre for their lack of

15:32

inclusion. In her 2023 essay,

15:35

We Don't Talk About Harry Potter,

15:37

Danielle wrote, quote, I

15:40

wanted to rectify a pattern.

15:42

One where magic school invitations

15:44

to BIPOC, LGBTQIA+, neurodivergent and

15:46

disabled kids seem to get

15:49

lost in the mail. Those

15:51

children were left perpetually waiting in the

15:54

margins, ready for adventure,

15:56

but sidelined. Unquote. The

15:59

full essay is a must-have. read and I'm going to link

16:01

to it in the show notes for you. Even

16:03

in the face of controversy and

16:05

transphobic remarks from the author herself,

16:08

Harry Potter remains the most popular

16:10

children's fantasy series of all time.

16:13

And nearly 30 years later, the series

16:15

lack of diversity is still leaving

16:17

marginalized groups feeling excluded from the

16:20

immersive and magical world of fantasy

16:22

stories. Danielle is

16:24

changing that. I asked her

16:26

about how she's currently working to fill

16:28

in the diverse character gaps from this

16:31

beloved genre, despite the large shadows cast

16:33

by stories like Harry Potter and Percy

16:35

Jackson. They're titans.

16:38

And unfortunately, because our

16:40

community and culture globally

16:42

loves nostalgia, they don't want to

16:44

move forward. But the young people like one foot

16:46

in the old and one foot in the new,

16:48

one foot in the thing that they loved. And

16:51

it's like, oh, it's like that, but we've

16:53

got these new things. And so I intimately

16:56

use my librarian training when

16:59

I'm sitting down to create ideas thinking

17:01

about what are the ingredients of this

17:03

big Titan property like Percy Jackson. Okay,

17:06

it's the reluctant hero kid that's kind

17:08

of down on his luck, finding out

17:11

that he's got this huge inheritance. I

17:13

took those ingredients and I thought, what do

17:15

these ingredients look like when filtered through the

17:17

lens of culture and community? These

17:20

things look different when filtered through a

17:23

Black American context and worldview. And then

17:25

I built Tristan out of that. And

17:27

so I embrace what has come before.

17:30

So I'm not a person that's like,

17:32

let's throw out the classics. Let's

17:34

move forward. Let's disrupt the

17:37

canon, which I love the disrupt text

17:39

movement. They are wonderful, wonderful teachers and

17:42

educators. And just borrowing that and thinking

17:44

about, well, how do I

17:46

move some of these universal themes, some

17:48

of these ingredients that we love, how

17:50

do I remix them into a new

17:54

stew that young people could

17:56

get really excited about? Because

17:58

frankly, these These young kids,

18:00

they don't want to read those books. They

18:02

don't want to read some of the older classics that

18:05

I love or that I grew up on or that

18:07

I was obsessed with. They're ready

18:09

for something that speaks to their lived

18:11

experience now. While Danielle

18:13

has devoted a substantial part of her

18:15

career to bringing diversity into the fantasy

18:17

genre, she does note that not all

18:19

of her peers are as enthusiastic as

18:21

she is about this particular goal.

18:24

And I have this conversation with my good

18:26

friend Jason Reynolds a lot about

18:29

why he moves away from fantasy,

18:31

why fantasy isn't a thing that he

18:33

enjoys. Yeah, you are very, you are

18:35

like a… Diametrically opposed, okay?

18:37

And we fight about it all the time. And

18:41

he said something very painful that haunts me

18:43

and it's like one of the anchors of

18:45

my work is he said that he feels

18:47

like black children

18:49

especially, black boys especially, their

18:51

imaginations are taken from them at a very

18:53

young age. And so

18:55

those building blocks don't get to grow

18:57

in the same way. And

19:00

so fantasy fiction, there is no escape.

19:03

And there is something that is

19:05

missing because at a very

19:07

young age, reality shows up on

19:09

their doorsteps so the fantasy cannot…

19:12

It can't even penetrate the reality for

19:15

many. So I just

19:17

wanted to inspire and create as many

19:19

fantasy books and worlds that feature and

19:21

center and set a table for black

19:23

children but invite all children so

19:26

that those imaginations can be built in

19:28

spite of the reality. I

19:31

am like, okay, this idea is really taking

19:33

me right now because I have a little

19:36

brown boy and a little brown girl and

19:38

they're older now, I guess, 12, 14. But

19:41

it is very interesting. I just figured

19:43

is there taste. But yeah, for Cassius, at

19:45

a very young age, he was very interested

19:47

in reading real stories. I

19:49

remember him reading The Hate U Give and he

19:51

just kept… Right, real. When

19:53

he was young, he kept asking me,

19:55

can I read The Hate U Give? And I'm like, no. I

19:58

mean, no. That seems tremendous. and

20:00

I don't want you to read that. But

20:02

he was persistent. Whereas my

20:04

daughter, she was like, don't when

20:06

everything happened with George Floyd, I remember she didn't want

20:08

to see it, she didn't want

20:10

to look at the news. She was shielding herself in

20:13

every which way. She has lived in her little world

20:15

of magic forever. She'll stay there right now. It's

20:18

interesting. It's an interesting thing.

20:22

He and I have talked about it quite a bit, thinking

20:24

about we grew up in the same area. He grew up

20:26

in Maryland, I grew up in Maryland, and

20:28

our childhoods and our experience of imagination is

20:30

completely different. He makes

20:32

magic out of the ordinary, out

20:34

of his neighborhood, and I like to

20:36

make magic with the extraordinary. So we just create

20:39

from two different places that are both valuable, but

20:43

different. And I think children need both,

20:45

and all. It's

20:48

that and space that they should live in. So

20:50

they know that they don't have to

20:52

choose. Yeah, not having to choose is

20:54

the thing, right? Okay, so

20:57

do you have a guiding principle for how you balance the realities

20:59

of our society with

21:02

your fantasy world building? And I mean,

21:04

by way of comparison, would be

21:06

the Bridgerton approach, which is kind

21:08

of like, toss history out the window, let's escape to this

21:10

alternate timeline, and

21:13

racism mostly just blew over. But

21:15

you don't do that. And

21:18

you also don't really drown your characters in

21:20

the worst of our actual, our current reality.

21:24

And you have two master's degrees, so

21:26

you're obviously bringing a scholarly

21:28

perspective to the writing,

21:30

and I know that you go deep into the history

21:32

books for background and everything. So

21:35

yeah, what is your approach to the

21:37

right balance? I think what

21:39

I don't want to do is invite readers

21:41

into my fantasy worlds and traumatize them with

21:45

the same things that are happening in their real

21:47

world. For me, I

21:50

think it's about leaving little breadcrumbs where

21:52

if you put it together, you've put

21:54

it together. This

21:57

is for the marvelers

21:59

and the controversies. series. This is

22:01

an analog to the 1960s

22:03

integration, school integration in America,

22:06

historical parallel. But it also is just

22:08

about two magical communities that have a

22:10

little bit of an issue with each

22:12

other, right? And about a little girl

22:14

who goes to magic school

22:16

and she's the first of her

22:18

group to go. So you can

22:20

put the pieces together. And I think that

22:23

the power of children's literature, the way

22:25

that I like it, is when it can be read on

22:28

two levels, maybe even

22:30

three. One for the teacher, right?

22:33

One for the parent and one for

22:35

the listener or for the reader, the

22:37

young reader, where each person is getting

22:39

something different. Those

22:41

were the books that I loved growing up. This

22:43

is the B in my bonnet. I find that

22:48

when I started writing that

22:50

writers of color and marginalized

22:52

writers, especially whatever your marginalization

22:55

is, are tasked with teaching.

22:58

And also they become teachable

23:00

lessons and I wanted to be

23:03

in the epic category. Why can't my work

23:05

be read just like Philip Pullman's work? Just

23:08

like Diana Wynne Jones, Jane

23:10

Yolen, right? We're talking about

23:12

real things but we also

23:14

have magic and mischief and

23:16

it's just a kid who has to

23:19

face a dragon or a

23:21

demon. And so I find that I felt

23:23

like my stories had to be local and

23:26

ripped from the headlines and very

23:28

newsy. And I wanted to write

23:30

something that felt like it could be read

23:33

in 50 years and still have

23:35

value where we don't have to go to the

23:37

newspapers and be like, oh, this is why this

23:39

book came about. That it still had some sort

23:41

of epic resonance. But I

23:43

wanted to balance making sure that it's

23:46

just a magic story about

23:48

magic school and a magic school

23:50

for all and the promises that we make

23:52

when we say something is for everyone. And

23:55

how do those values actually show up when

23:57

everyone comes? Right? So these

23:59

sort of, you universal themes, but set in

24:01

a context where you could make an analog

24:04

to bring it to life so that people

24:06

can read it on many levels. Oh,

24:08

yeah. That completely makes

24:11

sense. Okay, I want

24:13

to switch gears a little bit here because you

24:15

spend a lot of time as a teacher and

24:17

a librarian, which is amazing.

24:19

So outside, I guess, of the fantasy

24:21

genre, I wonder if you can speak

24:24

to your experience as a librarian

24:27

or as a teacher, getting kids to want to

24:29

read in general. I understand

24:31

that when you first arrived at your

24:34

school, the reading culture wasn't on solid

24:37

ground yet. So if you want to speak to that bit, that would

24:39

be great. Absolutely. I

24:41

mean, that was devastating. I think that was my

24:43

wide-eyed, like, I'm going to move to the big

24:45

city and I'm going to change people's lives and

24:47

I'm going to make kids are going to love

24:50

to read like I did. And then I

24:52

got to my school and kids hated to

24:54

read. And it broke me for

24:57

a while. How old were the kids who were teaching at first?

24:59

They were K through eight. So I

25:01

ran my library and I had to, you know,

25:03

work with different groups and the teachers

25:05

would bring them to the library and we would

25:07

do read-alouds and we would do book

25:10

selection and book tastings and all kinds of

25:12

fun things. But a lot of my

25:14

students hated books. Reading

25:17

was a struggle because of literacy rates,

25:19

but also because they saw books as

25:22

something that didn't involve them. They didn't

25:24

see themselves. So that's not for me because

25:27

I don't see anyone who

25:29

is from my neighborhood or

25:31

from my background or

25:33

my family that are in these

25:35

books. And

25:37

they were encountering when they did

25:39

see themselves, it was all about

25:42

things that pressed down on the bruises

25:44

of their collective background, which we need

25:46

those books. But we also need joy

25:49

because if we only see the bruises, then

25:51

I don't want any part of that. I

25:53

wouldn't want to read either if it was always going to be

25:55

something that made me feel like ouch. And

25:58

so I had the large task of building. a

26:00

reading culture at my school and

26:03

making reading fun. And

26:05

that was such a great and wonderful

26:07

challenge because I'm ambitious and I

26:09

like it when someone says they don't like something, I'm

26:11

like, oh, let me

26:13

prove you wrong. Challenge accepted.

26:16

Exactly, so I was like, we're gonna

26:18

do reading pajama parties, we're gonna bring

26:20

back our version of Book It. We're

26:22

gonna do a March Madness of books,

26:24

and then we're gonna have pizza parties,

26:26

and we're gonna have readathons, and we're

26:29

gonna do all this fun

26:31

stuff that created an obsession with

26:33

reading and helped change the literacy

26:35

rates of my young people in

26:37

my school. Okay, Danielle, you're

26:39

amazing. You are epic. Okay,

26:41

author, teacher, librarian, but we basically still

26:43

haven't covered all the facets of your

26:46

professional career, and I just wanna talk

26:48

about so many things, but definitely wanna

26:50

talk about Cate Creative. So can you

26:52

describe what it is? I think most

26:54

people who are not into books might

26:56

not really understand what it is or

26:59

what you do, and they could just go read the

27:01

New York Times article about Danielle. You can go do

27:04

that now, but maybe you can give us the

27:06

short version. Sure,

27:09

so when I was a librarian,

27:11

I noticed that a lot of

27:13

children's literature, when you open and

27:15

you look at the copyright page, the

27:18

copyright is owned by a company,

27:20

and I thought, hmm, Babysitter's Club,

27:23

Pretty Little Liars, Vampire Diaries. I

27:25

said, what is this? And I found

27:27

out that many children's books are what are

27:30

called packaged. That means that a team has

27:32

come up with an idea, and

27:34

writers, many writers at times when

27:37

it's series, have gotten a work for hire

27:39

contract to be able to write in that

27:41

series. So we've seen stuff like Star Wars,

27:43

all of those books, people writing in the

27:46

universe of Star Wars. That is the same

27:48

thing as a packaged book. It

27:50

means that someone has come up with the

27:52

idea and given that outline to you and

27:54

paid you to write this book. And I

27:56

thought to myself, in my

27:58

little library, trying to get these

28:00

kids to read. My

28:05

little readers that were obsessed were asking for books that

28:10

didn't exist on the shelves at the time.

28:15

This was around 2008, 9, and 10. It

28:18

was really frustrating to me. I

28:23

had a little girl who came into my library. She

28:28

said, where are the brujas? There

28:32

wasn't a single book that was for kids that had a

28:34

little bruja in it. I got

28:36

really angry. I was getting my

28:38

second masters at the time and I thought, I

28:41

need to do something about this. How can

28:43

I move faster? I

28:45

learned about packaging. Basically,

28:48

kick creative and also my other company, Electric

28:51

Postcard Entertainment, I come up with ideas for

28:54

books and I hire writers to write them and

28:57

I get a cash course and a launch

28:59

pad into the business because it took me

29:01

so long to break in that I thought,

29:05

we're never going to get out of this

29:07

problem and deficit of representation if

29:09

I can't shorten the runway for people. I

29:12

went through all of this stuff and these eight

29:14

full novels and all these

29:16

rejections. I finally learned how to write

29:19

a book and how to commercially pitch a book and how

29:21

to navigate the business. How many

29:23

people can I pass that knowledge on to? I can write

29:25

a piece of my own intellectual property and

29:28

teach you what I know and help get you that

29:30

foot in the door. We can

29:32

make this table bigger. We can

29:34

send that elevator back down. That's what I did.

29:38

Basically, I come up with all of these

29:40

ideas and outlines and

29:42

characters and worlds and then I hire writers

29:44

to write them and teach

29:46

them how I created the story, coach

29:49

them, edit them, and then go sell them to publishers.

29:54

How does that feel to watch? I

29:56

feel like it has to just feel amazing to know that one thing

29:58

is going to be a good thing. one kid is

30:00

reading a book that you wrote and

30:03

taking something from it, but then to know that now

30:06

it's like this whole other meta level

30:08

to not just like reach kids, but

30:10

then you're reaching all these

30:12

writers that you're bringing in and then

30:15

that exponential impact. I mean, wow. It's

30:17

weird. I kind of want to be like a

30:19

little secret. So like getting the New York Times

30:21

profile, like my agents were like, yeah, this is

30:23

great. And now I'm like, oh no, everybody knows

30:25

now. I have to go hide. I'm actually quite

30:28

shy, you know? And so, because

30:30

really this isn't about me. This is

30:32

literally about sitting the elevator

30:34

back down. That's how I was raised. My

30:36

mother told me the vision of success is

30:38

not you getting in the room, it's how

30:40

many people did you bring in with you

30:42

and hold that door open? So seeing that

30:44

Kwame Nbalia, who wrote the Tristan Strong series

30:46

and the Laskett of the Emperor series for

30:48

me, now has his own imprint at Disney

30:50

called Freedom Fire. Like that's the

30:53

goal. That's the impact. It's the sort

30:55

of spreading it. And like

30:57

I taught him things and now

30:59

he's now paying it back by

31:02

launching other creators. That's the

31:04

only way we can do this is

31:07

building this boat together. We all get

31:10

to the destination, but we can't leave

31:12

people behind. Yeah, I really,

31:14

I love that. And that leads us to, we

31:16

can talk a little about, we need diverse books,

31:19

which I'm like, how does this woman have time for

31:21

anything? But you recently like

31:24

did the transfer from LNO. Are

31:27

going to be taking over, but have

31:30

already been so involved as a

31:32

co-founder. So what's the conversation you

31:34

want to push now? For

31:36

the next decade? Yeah. We

31:38

need diverse books. I mean, I have

31:41

several bees in my bonnet. I always have a bee in my

31:43

bonnet. My mom said I was born with a bee

31:45

in the bonnet. Like I just was born a

31:47

little ornery, a little

31:49

fussy and particular. And I think what we

31:51

are facing and the thing that I really

31:54

want to drill down on in

31:56

this next decade, we've got a book banning

31:58

problem. what happened. We

32:06

knew that the work that we were all doing in

32:08

all of our various communities, we

32:13

have to work together to make

32:15

sure that our children get to read the things

32:17

that they want to read. And

32:20

that one group of people doesn't get to tell

32:22

everybody and everyone's child what they can and cannot

32:24

read. And so we have that to face. We

32:30

have to continue to not allow the fear of banning

32:32

to change their acquisition patterns.

32:35

Because this is tied to commerce.

32:41

And the book world and writers sit at the intersections of

32:43

art and commerce. We've

32:46

got to make sure these things sell. And

32:51

we have to get more creative because

32:54

also social media is changing. And

32:57

young people were competing for their

32:59

time. And

33:02

so we have to really talk to creators about how can we

33:04

make sure that these books really speak to this next generation and

33:06

get creative. Yes,

33:11

this is so good and important and I'm

33:13

so glad you're doing it. It

33:16

just strikes me that in so many avenues you've really

33:19

gone headfirst into creating these possibilities for young readers.

33:22

The possibilities you didn't have as a

33:24

kid. And

33:27

outside looking in, everything seems to be coming

33:29

together, like falling into the right places for

33:32

you. And I wonder, I know

33:34

you said you're not religious, but I wonder, I'm

33:36

curious about your thoughts on purpose. And

33:39

if you believe in that or believe in destiny,

33:42

that kind of thing. I think

33:44

that I am supposed to be

33:46

doing this work. And

33:49

I wanted to be a part of leaving a legacy behind

33:51

that helps them become the best versions of the next generation.

34:00

themselves, whether it is

34:02

sparking other artists and

34:04

making other writers and readers. So

34:07

that is something that I think that I was

34:09

supposed to do. Because all

34:11

of the roadblocks in my life

34:13

have landed me here. So

34:15

I do think my purpose here,

34:17

if I want to leave something behind,

34:20

make this place better than I found it, is

34:23

to change the shelves. To

34:25

make sure that every kid can walk into

34:28

that bookstore or library or classroom library and

34:30

see themselves reflected on the page, but also

34:32

get excited about that and allow

34:34

that to shape and change

34:36

their imaginations and grow it. Yeah,

34:40

absolutely. And do you have any

34:42

specific memories of an interaction with a

34:45

student or a kid that you know you had an impact on?

34:48

Yes. I had a little

34:50

girl who had created an entire

34:52

diorama of the magic school because

34:55

she was so obsessed and her mom said that

34:57

she couldn't get her to go to sleep. She

34:59

was creating every animal that was mentioned, every character.

35:01

And I couldn't take them with me because I

35:04

had flown in. But it was

35:06

just seeing a kid's

35:09

imagination become electrified by

35:11

something that I made to where they

35:13

were making things. I

35:15

was like, oh, job done. Yeah. Like,

35:19

job done. Danielle

35:23

Clayton is a doer and a disruptor.

35:26

She also just happens to be a

35:28

doer and disruptor who loves magic. For

35:31

her reading challenge, retelling heroes and

35:34

magic, she takes inspiration from her

35:36

goal to disrupt the world of

35:38

fantasy storytelling. I think it's

35:40

going to be sort of disrupting

35:42

your classic sense of what a

35:45

hero or what magic

35:47

looks like. And

35:49

heroes born out of culture and community.

35:52

I'm going to include Marty Dumas' Wild

35:54

Seed Witch, which is a

35:56

fun middle grade that is set in Louisiana as

35:58

well. And it's about the world. these naughty

36:00

girls at this magical

36:02

boarding, finishing school sort of

36:04

thing. I think I'm

36:07

gonna do Kenyan masters in the Pureless Academy

36:09

too. It's got like a

36:11

environmental sort of magic school feel. So

36:14

I think it'll be sort of, it's

36:16

time for new worlds. There are new

36:18

worlds. There are new heroes amongst

36:21

us type of vibes. This

36:25

episode's Beanstack featured librarian is

36:31

once again, Erin Baker, media specialist

36:34

at Durham Middle School in Georgia.

36:36

This time, Erin tells us her

36:38

secret sauce for getting the whole

36:40

school on board with reading initiatives

36:43

and why it involves some unlikely

36:45

allies. My secret sauce

36:47

is aligning with classroom teachers. And

36:50

as a media specialist, my priority has

36:52

always been collaborative instruction, but it really

36:55

goes beyond that because you need those

36:57

teachers advocating and representing your program when

36:59

they're in the classroom. A

37:01

librarian or media specialist could not do all of

37:03

that work by themselves. So I think

37:06

you start with just one teacher, one

37:08

group of teachers. I've been fortunate to

37:10

be in my school for 13 years.

37:13

So I have really secured a

37:15

foundation and have roots in

37:17

the program. And I have my go-tos

37:19

who I know are my people who

37:21

will try anything and every school has

37:23

those. But I've also had such great

37:25

success working with science teachers because they

37:27

have that same mindset. And

37:30

sometimes because teachers carry so much, sometimes when

37:32

things flop, that can be very overwhelming. But

37:34

I found with science teachers, science teachers didn't

37:36

care. They were like, everything's an experiment. Every

37:38

day is an experiment. If something doesn't work,

37:40

it's okay. That's what we're teaching our kids.

37:42

So it's okay if that happens with us

37:44

too. This has been the

37:48

Reading Culture. And

37:52

you've been listening to my conversation with

37:54

Danielle Clayton. Again, I'm

37:56

your host, Jordan Lloyd-Bookie. And

37:58

currently I'm reading, Skin and

38:00

Bones by a former guest of our

38:03

show, Renee Watson. It's her first adult

38:05

book and it's so good. And

38:07

also The One and Only Family by

38:10

Catherine Applegate, which is the last in

38:12

that series. Sad ears. If

38:14

you've enjoyed today's episode, please show some love

38:17

and give us a five-star review. It just

38:19

takes a second and really helps. This

38:21

episode was produced by Jackie Lamport

38:24

and Lower Street Media and script

38:26

edited by Josiah Lamberto-Egan. To

38:28

learn more about how you can help grow your community's

38:31

reading culture, you can check out all

38:33

of our resources at beanstack.com. And

38:36

remember to sign up for

38:38

our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter for

38:41

special offers and bonus content.

38:43

Thanks for listening and keep

38:45

reading.