0:01

I feel like it was this little miracle that

0:03

in some areas of my life I'm shutting myself

0:05

up and shutting myself down, but

0:07

with my writing, I was always really

0:10

connecting with that inner voice. Words

0:13

are to us what ones and zeros

0:15

are to computers. They're the

0:17

language of processing, processing that which

0:19

we may or may not

0:21

always be aware of. It

0:23

does feel like a little miracle

0:26

that I had that kind of

0:28

stabilizing force in throughout my whole

0:30

life. Shannon Hale spent a

0:32

lot of her childhood anxiously trying to

0:34

be perfect, even when that

0:37

meant hiding her true feelings and personality.

0:40

But she eventually discovered that when she

0:42

wrote, she was free to be honest

0:44

with herself. Shannon is

0:46

an acclaimed author celebrated for her

0:48

children's and young adult novels, such

0:51

as the Newbery Honor-winning Princess

0:53

Academy and her memoir graphic

0:55

novel, Real Friends series. And

0:57

of course, many of you will

0:59

know Shannon for her best selling

1:01

The Princess in Black series, which

1:04

features a princess with a secret

1:06

superhero identity. By the

1:08

way, Lee-Hwen Pham, a guest on

1:10

this podcast and Shannon's Bestie, illustrated

1:12

both of those series. In

1:14

this episode, Shannon will tell us

1:17

about growing up in a deeply

1:19

conservative culture and how writing unearthed

1:21

her true voice, her authentic self

1:23

from where it had been simmering

1:25

just beneath the surface. As

1:28

you'll hear, we'll get into some

1:30

very telling revelations. Oh,

1:36

and we have a wee surprise for you. If

1:38

it's good and funny, I claim it. Shannon's

1:42

co-author and collaborator on The Princess in

1:44

Black and in Life, Dean Hale, will

1:46

join us to talk about how they

1:48

started work on the series and why

1:50

it's been such a family affair. Yes,

1:54

Dean, her husband. My

1:56

name is Jordan Lloyd-Bookie, and this

1:58

is The Reading Culture, a show

2:00

where speak with authors and illustrators

2:03

about ways to build a stronger

2:05

culture of reading in our communities.

2:07

We dive into their personal experiences,

2:09

their inspirations, and why their stories

2:11

and ideas motivate kids to read

2:13

more. Make sure to check us

2:15

out on Instagram for giveaways at

2:18

the Reading Culture Pod, and you

2:20

can also subscribe to our newsletter

2:22

at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter. All right, onto the

2:24

show. My

2:30

first question is, I tried to look around and find

2:32

it. Maybe it's on your website and I missed it,

2:34

but what's up with Squeedus? It

2:36

was just a random word that my

2:38

husband made up, and

2:41

it was because it was a nonsense

2:43

word. Domain names and

2:45

email names were always available, and

2:47

so we just kind of grabbed

2:49

him. Also, he

2:52

used to call me, like a nickname he

2:54

used to call me, was Squeeder Pig. He

2:58

felt like Squeedus was the formal version

3:00

of Squeeder Pig. But

3:04

too formal and royal for everyday use. Okay,

3:08

well that heavy hitter's out of the way. All

3:11

right, I just kind of want to start off with your growing

3:14

up life, which you really share a lot about, and if people

3:16

really want to know like the details, they can just go read

3:18

your graphic novels. You gave up a lot

3:20

there, and I've heard you say that those are pretty

3:23

much true. There's no made up, save for

3:25

a few things, parts, yeah, so that's an

3:28

accurate reflection. But yeah, just

3:30

talking about your younger childhood,

3:32

what life was like for

3:35

little Shannon Hale. So mom

3:37

and dad, stay at home mom, working

3:40

dad, five kids, I was the middle

3:42

kid. And my

3:45

two older sisters were a year and a half apart,

3:47

and my younger brother and sister were a year and

3:49

a half apart. But I was separated

3:51

by three and four years. So I was kind

3:53

of in this gap in the middle, partly

3:56

because of that I did feel like a bit

3:58

of a loner in my home. and

4:01

big imagination lived a lot in my head.

4:04

I was really the only avid reader

4:06

in my family. I eventually started doing

4:08

theater and I was the only person really

4:10

interested in that. And just from birth, I

4:12

had a different kind of, I was just

4:14

tuned into stories in a really big way.

4:18

And that didn't come from my

4:20

family necessarily. It was almost like

4:22

a coping mechanism, like how to

4:24

survive in a place where you

4:26

don't quite feel like you belong.

4:29

Which is probably how most

4:31

kids feel. I had a

4:33

stable home. I had loving parents, but

4:36

they were so different than me. They

4:38

just couldn't understand what was going on with

4:41

this bizarre little child. And you felt like

4:43

that even when you were really young. I

4:46

did. So much of my

4:48

life, and I talk about my books, you know,

4:50

I had anxiety disorder and OCD. And

4:52

I think so much of that was trying

4:55

to cope with what I thought I was

4:57

supposed to be like. There's this

4:59

designation, highly sensitive person. Some

5:01

research has shown that 15, 20% of human and

5:05

animal populations are just wired this way.

5:08

In evolution terms, it would be beneficial

5:10

to have some people who notice the

5:12

sounds and smells more, you know, and

5:14

can alert everyone else. But

5:16

what it means is I just take

5:18

everything in so much of a bigger

5:20

way. It's not good or bad. It's

5:22

a neutral thing. I can

5:25

get so much, my joy up so

5:27

fast, listening to a song

5:29

or noticing a sunset. And

5:31

when something negative happens, it plummets

5:33

so fast. Everybody else in

5:35

my family is more even killed. And I'm just

5:37

this dialed up to 11 kid

5:40

who's taking in all the sensory

5:42

information so much. And so I

5:45

notice every twitch of my parents'

5:47

lip of disapproval. And

5:49

the fear of rejection is so heavy

5:51

in me that I'm like, I have

5:53

to be perfect. I have to be

5:56

the kid that they need me to

5:58

be. Without causing that, I'm like, I'm not. consciously

6:00

thinking that, but that's absolutely what was

6:02

going on. And so much

6:04

of my anxiety is not anyone's fault. It's

6:07

just me reacting to an environment where I

6:09

didn't quite fit and trying, putting so much

6:11

pressure on myself to fit and be perfect.

6:14

What was your release? Did you write? So

6:16

yeah, my mom says that I was, I was

6:19

making up stories before I could talk cause I'd be sitting in

6:21

the high chair and I would be going, like,

6:24

she's like, it wasn't normal

6:26

baby babble. I

6:33

was like, you were talking, you

6:35

know, it was like a three act structure in

6:37

the baby babble. And

6:39

I always was, I was always making up games.

6:41

I made up little plays to have my younger

6:44

brother and sister, anybody I could rope

6:46

in to perform with me. I made up games for

6:48

my friends to play. I didn't know

6:50

I was storytelling, but that's clearly what it was. And

6:52

I read a lot and I had stories in my

6:54

head and it was fourth grade when I had a

6:56

teacher that had to start writing short stories. And that

6:59

was the first time I was like, Oh, I could

7:01

actually do this. That

7:04

was something I'm so grateful for with my

7:06

teachers is that they did allow

7:08

me some expression cause I would

7:10

make up these plays and I would practice them

7:12

with friends on the playground and then they would

7:15

let me perform them for the class. They

7:18

were probably like a minute and a half long, but

7:20

still that was very indulgent of them.

7:23

That was something I really appreciate. And

7:25

then my fourth grade teacher, Mrs. Spackman

7:28

read something I wrote at parent

7:30

teacher conference to the parents. Cause

7:33

I never had a lot of you got it

7:35

kid kind of stuff. So you kind of cling

7:37

to those little positive feedbacks of maybe this is

7:39

something I could do. Like

7:42

I can make a living at it. That was

7:45

not something in, we never met authors. Like authors

7:47

didn't come. Yeah, they never really came through schools

7:49

right now. No, not until after

7:51

Harry Potter did publishing sort of see

7:53

children's books as like a big enough

7:56

industry that they would tour children's authors.

7:58

So we never met any authors. And

8:00

also, I was raised in a very conservative culture where

8:03

the only women I knew were

8:06

stay-at-home moms, or

8:08

occasionally they could be their

8:10

teachers or nurses. So

8:13

there was very limited options. I never saw

8:15

modeled for me women having careers

8:17

at all. So in my

8:19

mind, I thought maybe I could write

8:21

books someday, but it was always kind

8:23

of in a hobby way. I'm going

8:25

to be a mom. Here's

8:28

the song. There's this

8:30

kind of culture I grew up in. I mean,

8:32

obviously the 80s were different for women in

8:35

every way, but I was in an especially conservative

8:37

culture. And the

8:39

media that we had, one

8:41

of the songs I grew up, I do not sing. I

8:43

cannot carry a tune, but I'm going to sing for you

8:45

right now, Jordan. This is one of

8:47

the songs that we used to listen to over

8:49

and over again on a tape of children's music.

8:52

When I grow up, I want

8:55

to be a mother

8:57

and have a family. One little,

9:00

two little, three little babies that

9:02

I love. And you

9:04

will say each sister

9:06

and each brother will

9:09

look a lot like me. Four

9:11

little, five little, six little, blessings

9:13

from above. And it just keeps

9:15

counting. The

9:17

job is to have as many babies

9:20

as you can get. You were singing

9:22

along to that? I was. I

9:24

was singing along. Not questioning that. That

9:26

was going to be my lot. I had a

9:29

mom who had five kids and they always said,

9:31

oh, we wish you could have had more. My

9:33

dad was one of eight kids. And that was

9:35

just what you did. Do you

9:37

remember a particular moment in which you

9:40

were like, hey, wait, I don't necessarily

9:42

want this. I want something else for

9:44

myself. I wish I had one big

9:47

epiphany, but what it

9:49

was was constant cognitive

9:51

dissonance of moments of like, wait a

9:53

minute, and then stuffing it down like

9:55

I did everything else. It

9:58

was dangerous for me to question.

10:00

It felt dangerous to disagree. I

10:03

didn't feel like I had an option to say,

10:05

can I choose for myself? Can I see

10:07

what feels right to me and make that choice?

10:09

That didn't feel possible. Okay, that's

10:11

a lot to unpack growing up like that. That's

10:15

the Mormon Church, right? But I understand that

10:18

you distanced yourself from that more officially. Yeah,

10:20

so I grew up in the Mormon

10:22

Church my whole life and was active for

10:24

45 years. It

10:26

was my community. It's my family.

10:28

There's so much good in it.

10:30

And everybody's different. Everybody's

10:33

experience is different. Like my experience, what

10:35

I took out of it, what I

10:37

learned, what I believed, isn't the same

10:39

as what everybody else did. So the

10:41

experience of a really anxious, highly sensitive

10:43

girl in growing up in the 80s

10:45

is gonna be completely different than anybody

10:48

else as well. There was

10:50

so much great about it and there was

10:52

so much that was really hard for me

10:54

about it. And ultimately, I did step away

10:56

a few years ago. I'm still officially a

10:58

member and I'm

11:00

not interested in bad mouthing the

11:02

organization or anybody in it. Everybody's gotta

11:04

find their own path. But

11:07

for me, with

11:09

my kids, it was like, I think actually it's

11:11

best not to be here anymore. Yeah,

11:14

I imagine that's probably liberating and

11:16

painful all at once. I

11:18

mean, it's a 10-year journey that continues

11:20

and I don't regret a moment of

11:22

it. I haven't gone through

11:25

something that wrote itself

11:27

on every cell of my body and

11:30

then deconstructing from that and figuring out as

11:32

an adult, what do I actually believe and

11:34

how do I actually see the world in

11:37

myself? That's an

11:39

amazing experience. You can't

11:41

go on any kind of meditation retreat that's gonna

11:43

give you that kind of experience. There's no therapist

11:45

in the world that can give you that. So

11:48

I feel really lucky. I feel

11:51

like I got this chance

11:53

to go through myself

11:55

tiny piece by piece and

11:58

really work through. everything

12:00

and man, I feel

12:02

amazing now. Like, I

12:04

mean, I had anxiety OCD for my entire

12:06

life for decades, it's gone, it's gone. I

12:08

didn't know you could cure that after

12:12

that being constant, shattered my head 24

12:15

hours a day, every waking moment. And now it's

12:17

gone. It's really a cool

12:20

experience. And of course not everybody

12:22

who goes through that also has the same experience,

12:24

but for me, it's been amazing. Before

12:27

this interview, Shannon shared a quote with

12:29

my producer, Jackie, and it's

12:31

from EM Forrester and goes like this, how

12:34

can I tell what I think till I see what I

12:36

say? The act of writing

12:38

is as much for the writer as it is for

12:40

the reader. And even when she didn't

12:43

realize it, Shannon was discovering more about herself

12:45

and her place in the world through the

12:47

words and stories that came out of her.

12:50

It definitely has. Looking back now, so

12:53

I was that kid who didn't

12:55

allow myself to listen to my own inner voice

12:58

because I was wrong. Everything I kind of

13:00

did and felt was wrong. So I'm stuffing

13:03

everything down. But

13:05

it turned out that when I was

13:07

writing, I was in

13:09

kind of this meditative state where

13:12

I'm like just me and the story, but

13:15

I think you can't be

13:17

in that state without being really connected to

13:19

your inner self. So

13:21

I think writing was always when I actually

13:23

could hear my own voice. And

13:26

even looking back now at things

13:28

I wrote 20 years ago, they

13:31

still so much represent who I

13:33

am and I have

13:36

no regrets and they feel like,

13:39

yes. Yes, I'm so

13:42

happy I wrote this and I still, I would

13:44

write it today with joy. So

13:46

I feel like it was this little miracle that

13:48

in some areas of my life, I'm shutting myself

13:50

up and shutting myself down. But

13:52

with my writing, I was always really

13:55

connecting with that inner voice. It

13:57

does feel like a little miracle.

14:00

miracle, that I had that

14:02

kind of stabilizing force

14:04

in throughout my whole life. And I didn't

14:06

notice throughout the years of like, oh, I

14:08

haven't had a chance to write in like

14:10

a week. I would feel not

14:12

good. Like I'd feel more anxious than normal. And

14:14

I used to explain it to myself of like,

14:16

I need to feel productive and I wasn't being

14:18

productive. I wasn't producing things in the good

14:21

little cog of the machine of this world. But

14:23

I think part, and maybe that was part of

14:25

it, but part of it was for sure that

14:27

was like my meditation time when I

14:29

was like allowing the anxiety and everything to

14:31

go away. And I was like connecting

14:34

with that little bright spot inside me. Writing

14:38

was my sneaky loophole way

14:40

to access my inner voice

14:43

without going through all of the

14:47

snaggy barbed wire fences that I had

14:49

built because I thought that I had

14:52

to shut that off in order to be a good

14:54

and worthy person. Oh

14:56

my God, the things we tell ourselves. Okay,

14:59

when you weren't writing, what

15:02

were some of the things that you love to read?

15:04

I did love fantasy. And

15:07

it was amazing to find

15:09

fantasy that had female leads.

15:13

I really feel like I lived in a world

15:15

where women were not the heroes and

15:18

certainly the movies. There just

15:20

was not a lot of value

15:22

for women's stories. So

15:25

I have here Robin McKinley, The

15:27

Blue Sword, which was given

15:29

to me by my school librarian. Oh

15:32

wow. And I devoured it. And then

15:34

she gave me the sequel

15:36

when it came out and I devoured that

15:38

one too. And I

15:40

reread those over and over again. I love

15:42

those. I love the Narnia books and Lloyd

15:44

Alexander. And

15:46

Patricia McKillip wrote a series

15:48

called The Riddle Master of Head. Oh, I

15:50

loved those and read them over and over again.

15:53

I also loved Homecoming and

15:56

Dicey's songs, Cynthia Foyt. Those

15:58

were ones I reread a lot. like almost

16:00

all the books in my library. I

16:06

felt like she was really honest. She

16:08

wasn't pulling punches. And

16:11

for me, it was a relief to have an adult

16:13

kind of see you that way. You

16:15

asked me earlier, were there any adults who

16:18

validated how you were feeling and saw you where

16:20

you were? And

16:23

I couldn't think of any. But now I'm saying, I think

16:25

Cynthia Voight did. So

16:28

I think that's one reason why I was yearning for books,

16:31

is because in some ways

16:33

it was escapism, like the fantasy writing

16:35

far away. And in some ways, the

16:37

realistic fiction was like, yeah, it's really

16:39

hard. She was definitely had a lot

16:41

of unflinching looks at kids that

16:43

you didn't really get from other, that I can think of.

16:46

She was so raw and the

16:49

characters were not perfect. And

16:51

there were no tidy endings. But

16:53

just living through that point of view was

16:57

incredibly validating for me.

17:00

And I just felt like maybe I was not

17:03

so broken maybe, if, hey,

17:05

this dicey deserves a story. Yeah.

17:07

And she got a shiny sticker on it even,

17:09

a story. That's how good a

17:11

story it is. Maybe I deserve a

17:14

story, which is really like, maybe I deserve

17:16

to live. Because certainly I had dark thoughts,

17:18

scary thoughts from a very young age about

17:21

not wanting to be alive. So

17:23

hearing that someone values a messy

17:26

kid, Ramona. Yeah.

17:29

It's a messy kid who deserves

17:32

a story, a book, and even a shiny

17:34

sticker. That gives you hope. Yeah,

17:38

I'm sorry that you had that too when you

17:40

were younger. With my real

17:42

friends' books, which are about my

17:44

elementary through middle of school years,

17:48

I have had a lot of adults tell

17:50

me, it's too much. These

17:53

are too dark. And I pull back

17:55

a lot. I don't want it. I'm not shoving everything. You

17:58

don't want to tell all the worst moments. and you

18:00

don't want to dwell there too long. Yeah,

18:02

I read that you held back a lot

18:04

on the bullying, which feels kind of intense

18:06

anyway, but that you actually didn't include a

18:08

lot of the worst parts of things that

18:10

were happening. Yeah, it just was too much.

18:12

You want kids to know this happens, but

18:14

you don't want to kind of

18:16

shove their head underwater with it. So it

18:19

is a balance trying to figure out what

18:21

to do. Because the point of the book

18:24

for me was not, I'm a important

18:26

historical figure and I need to tell all the details

18:28

of my life. That

18:30

would be like an autobiography, I suppose. But a memoir, the

18:32

point of it is, here's some

18:34

experiences I have that tie together in some way,

18:37

and I'm going to share them with you. So

18:39

you can understand other kids like me, and so you

18:42

can feel less alone in your own struggles. I

18:45

kept that as my guiding stars as I wrote

18:47

it. But it was interesting how

18:49

many adults said, it's too much, it's too

18:51

hard for kids. And

18:53

then kids were like rereading

18:56

it over and over again. It wasn't too

18:58

much or too hard for the kids. It

19:00

was a relief. Finally, somebody

19:02

saying what I'm going through, putting

19:04

it down, not only in words,

19:07

but only when fam's visuals,

19:09

the pictures, it's really powerful

19:11

for a kid to be able to say,

19:14

this is how I'm feeling and point to

19:16

a picture. I

19:18

went to a high school reunion 30 years, and

19:23

there was a guy, a

19:25

great guy, who I

19:28

went to elementary through college with. And

19:31

he told me that he had

19:34

a 10-year-old who reread Real Friends

19:36

so often that it fell apart,

19:38

and they went and had to bind it, rebound

19:41

it at a kinko. I

19:43

said, oh, she's having a

19:46

hard time, is she struggling? And he said,

19:48

how did you know? I

19:50

said, well, because there's something in that

19:52

book that she's needing, and

19:54

so she's reading it over and over

19:56

again because she's needing something from it.

20:00

And he had, I said, did you read it? He

20:02

said, no. And I said, dude,

20:04

you need to read, your child is reading

20:06

a book over and over again. There's

20:08

something in there. You need to see it. And guess

20:11

what else? You're in it. He's

20:14

like, what? I was like, you're literally in the book. And

20:17

he had no idea what it was about. He didn't

20:19

even know it was a memoir. Oh, that's amazing. Okay.

20:22

God. Okay, we have to do, we have

20:24

to do better, parents. All right. I

20:26

want to go back for a moment to

20:29

your love of fantasy and just talk a bit

20:31

about how you got into writing it for young

20:33

readers, if you can go into that a bit.

20:35

I loved reading when I was younger. By the time

20:37

I was in high school, everything that was assigned to

20:40

us were the classics, which were

20:42

mostly these books that had been written

20:44

by people who are now deceased, almost

20:46

all men, almost all white men. And

20:49

almost all of them were literary

20:53

fiction, which was realism

20:56

with a tragic bent. There

20:59

was no more genre. There's no more comedy. There's

21:01

no more fun. There's no romance.

21:03

There's no mystery. It's just people

21:06

who had potential,

21:08

but the world is horrible and they end up sad

21:10

and depressed or dead. And then

21:12

on the Christmas break, I

21:14

went home and my brother struggled with

21:16

reading and he had to

21:19

read a book for class. And so I got a book

21:21

that I loved when I was a kid, which was

21:23

the book of three by Lloyd Alexander. And

21:25

I read it to him aloud, the

21:28

first several chapters to get him hooked. But

21:30

I also got hooked. I was like, I

21:32

forgot how fun this was. And so I

21:35

started reading other fantasy books and

21:39

I found that my literary

21:41

sensibilities had gotten so raised

21:43

by the really fine literature

21:45

I was reading that I

21:48

couldn't enjoy a lot of them anymore. And I

21:50

couldn't let myself just get lost in them. And

21:53

that's not true of all, but just the ones that I'd happened

21:55

to read at that time. And so I made a goal for

21:57

myself. I was like, I wonder if I could write a book.

22:00

that was written at the sentence level, knowing

22:03

everything I know now, but

22:05

was still the kind of story that I would have loved

22:07

when I was 12. So

22:10

I aimed for Goose Girl. I

22:13

thought I was writing adult fiction that was

22:15

fantasy. And I was

22:17

amazed when it eventually, after many, many

22:19

rejections in a long time, in many

22:21

years, I did find a publisher

22:23

and she said this was a young

22:25

adult. And then I discovered this whole new amazing

22:28

world of young adult literature

22:30

where so many people were

22:33

writing exactly what I wanted,

22:35

which was these really fun,

22:37

tightly crafted, many different

22:39

genres of story, but also with

22:41

so much care for the structure

22:44

and the sentences so that they were beautiful

22:47

to read. Marilla

22:53

was out in the orchard picking a handful of

22:56

summer apples. When she saw Mr. Berry coming over

22:58

the log bridge and up the slope with

23:01

Mrs. Berry beside him and a whole procession of

23:03

little girls trailing after him. In

23:06

his arms, he carried Anne, whose head lay

23:08

limply against his shoulder. At

23:11

that moment, Marilla had a revelation in

23:13

the sudden stab of fear that pierced to

23:16

her very heart. She

23:18

realized what Anne had come to mean to her.

23:21

She would have admitted that she liked Anne, named

23:23

that she was very fond of Anne, but now she knew

23:25

as she hurried wildly down the

23:27

slope that Anne was

23:29

dearer to her than anything on earth. Anne

23:36

of Green Gables is a classic in the

23:38

highest sense of the word. First

23:41

released in 1908, Lucy

23:43

Maud Montgomery's timeless work follows

23:45

the story of 11-year-old orphan

23:47

Anne, who finds herself in

23:49

rural Prince Edward Island, Canada,

23:51

with a family that never

23:53

intended to take her in.

23:56

Like Dicey from Dicey's Song by Cynthia

23:58

Voigt, Anne is a

24:00

flawed. She is imperfect and

24:02

yet she deserves love. They

24:05

wanted a boy. They wanted a boy

24:08

because they wanted someone who's going to

24:10

be useful and strong and could

24:12

do things boys did. And then she showed up and they were

24:14

going to get rid of her. And

24:17

then Marilla decides to

24:19

keep her out of mercy. As

24:22

time goes on, we get

24:24

to this moment where Anne

24:27

was dared to walk the ridge, pull the roof and

24:29

fell off. Mr. Barry

24:31

is carrying her back and

24:34

she's broken her ankle. And

24:37

for me, coming to

24:39

this moment after

24:43

everything that came before, it's this

24:46

pure moment where someone is

24:48

loved for just being

24:50

who they are, not

24:53

for what they can do, not for

24:55

how productive they are, how helpful they

24:57

are. And in fact, they're

24:59

quite annoying often. And

25:02

yet they still have value. The hope

25:05

of that really moves me. Yeah.

25:08

And she's so precious still to them.

25:11

Okay. I cry when someone cries and I'm going to

25:14

cry. It's why

25:16

I resist crying because it's like a

25:18

virus and I don't want

25:20

to make anyone else cry. But I can't help it.

25:23

I loved that as a kid. It felt hopeful to me as a

25:25

kid, as a parent, it brings

25:27

me to tears. Oh my God. Yeah. Just thinking.

25:30

As a parent to be like, I love

25:33

my kids for being

25:35

who they are and the relief

25:37

of that. Because I think

25:39

when I was younger, a younger

25:41

mom even, I felt like

25:43

I had to tell them how to be, in

25:47

order to be safe, in order to be good,

25:50

all of those things, I had to tell them how to be. And

25:53

the beauty of letting go of

25:55

that and realizing, no, I'm just

25:57

supporting them in becoming who they actually

25:59

are. are and whatever they are is

26:02

beautiful. And the metaphor

26:04

I use with my kids that they

26:06

understand is we have

26:08

this wonderful, very fat asthmatic

26:10

rescue cat who

26:13

does nothing. He

26:16

just sits there and

26:18

occasionally moves to get some treats and

26:20

otherwise just sits. And

26:23

we love him so much. That

26:25

is how I feel. I

26:28

feel about them and I hope that

26:30

they feel about themselves and each

26:32

other that we don't have to earn our

26:35

worthiness and love. We just

26:38

are. If we can love this cat, why

26:41

can't we just love ourselves and each other? Yeah,

26:44

that's very beautiful. What's your

26:46

cat's name? His name is

26:49

Michael Hat. Last

26:51

name Hat. So his nickname

26:53

is Mike Hat. Since

27:02

2014, Shannon and Dean Hale have

27:04

been writing the Princess in Black series,

27:06

truly beloved by kids everywhere and definitely

27:09

by my own kids growing up and

27:11

now my younger nieces and nephews, their

27:14

modern day classics. Because

27:16

this is truly a family affair, we asked

27:18

Shannon to bring Dean into the interview to

27:20

join us for a bit. The first thing

27:23

he told us is that Shannon is the

27:25

reason he realized he could have his own

27:27

career in writing. Shannon

27:29

had written and sold things. She

27:33

had made it a career and I was still like,

27:35

is it really possible? You

27:38

still are like that. Really?

27:41

Yeah. True. Yeah,

27:44

living that. What was the impetus,

27:46

I guess, for you to work together?

27:49

That was the comic. So I had

27:52

published several novels and I was meeting

27:54

these kids who, a sibling,

27:57

loved my 380 page fantasy. novel

28:00

and then another sibling was in the

28:02

back and the mom would whisper, they're not really a

28:04

reader. And I was like, Oh, but they are,

28:06

they just don't have the right book. This isn't the right book for

28:08

them. I wanted to do

28:10

a comic with Dean. It was not

28:12

easier to work together. It didn't save

28:14

time. It cost more time. But

28:17

there was also, we found it was a

28:19

fun new part of our relationship that, you

28:21

know, we'd known each other for so long.

28:23

I've been through so much together already. And

28:26

now we were pitching ideas

28:28

back and forth and, you know, brainstorming

28:30

together and that was fun. Yeah. It

28:32

was like playing, you know, even

28:35

though that it was, you know, we were trying

28:37

to produce something, it was so much fun. It

28:39

was like I distanced myself

28:41

so much from having fun, you know,

28:43

like, you know, hanging out with friends

28:45

or, you know, doing something like that,

28:47

you know, in our relationship, we had

28:49

fun, but there's something next level

28:52

about cooperating on something like this. Especially,

28:54

you know, as you're, like you said,

28:56

pitching ideas back and forth and coming

28:58

up with what would be

29:00

cool. His not favorite part would be revising,

29:03

which is why I do that. Right. Beyond

29:05

the Shannon Dean husband wife team writing

29:08

the Princess in Black series. This was

29:10

even more of a family affair. The

29:13

whole series came about after their young

29:15

daughter said something to Shannon that she

29:17

couldn't shake. So one day

29:20

she was four years old. Her name's

29:22

Maggie, which is short for Magnolia. And

29:25

she was wearing this butterfly skirt and she was pointing to

29:27

the different colors on it. And she said, mama, purple

29:30

is a girl color and pink is a girl

29:32

color, but not black. And I was like, what?

29:34

Where, you know, I did not raise her this

29:36

way. Where does this information coming from? And

29:39

I said, of course girls can wear black.

29:41

I wear black. And she would call like,

29:43

cause like, I'm not a girl. I'm a

29:45

mama. And I said, bad

29:47

girl wears black. And I

29:49

thought that would solve the issue.

29:51

And she said, but mama princesses

29:54

don't wear black. And

29:56

I realized her little four year old brain had been

29:58

absorbing information that I never had. She's

30:00

four. Yes, and she's like, I'm

30:02

a girl, and princesses are girl plus.

30:06

And so they're like the ideal, and they

30:09

never wear black. So that must not

30:11

be a girl thing. And

30:13

immediately I'm thinking about it like the princess in

30:15

black, it sounds like a superhero.

30:19

And I couldn't stop thinking about it. I was thinking about

30:21

it all day. I went to exercise and I usually like

30:23

play like an audio book when I exercise to distract myself

30:25

from the horror. And I

30:27

couldn't even pay attention to the audio book because my

30:29

mind was just going, going, going with this idea. I

30:31

was so excited about it. And as soon

30:33

as Dean got home from work, I said, the princess in black. Yeah.

30:37

And he's like, yes, it immediately just

30:39

kind of got it. She was a

30:41

superhero immediately. And I can't remember the

30:44

origin of the monsters, but I

30:46

was either like she fights monsters or I

30:49

was completely on board with that idea. Yes.

30:52

Yeah, I don't remember who said what. And that's often

30:54

how it happens when we're creating

30:56

is nobody really remembers who did

30:58

what. And plus someone says one thing and they build

31:00

on it and they build on it and you know,

31:02

it becomes a joint effort. And if

31:05

it's good and funny, I claim it in the end.

31:07

Yeah. And so do everybody else because they're always like,

31:09

oh, I love this part. That must have been Dean because he's the man. And

31:12

so he's the funny one. I swear to you. I've

31:14

read you write about people that be like, oh, he

31:16

must have. I

31:19

read like a funny dinner conversation or something with you guys.

31:21

I'm one of your friends. It happens all the time. And

31:25

I've read comedic books on

31:27

my own. But anytime there's anything funny, people are

31:29

like, it must have been Dean. Like actually

31:32

women can write comedy, I swear. But

31:34

anyway, we immediately were really excited about it. We

31:37

could have really taken the premise and done

31:39

many things with it. But I specifically wanted

31:41

to do these early chapter books like Mercy

31:44

Watson because I had

31:46

these four young children. And

31:48

it's a big leap from the early

31:50

readers to magic tree house in the

31:53

early chapter books. And I

31:55

was like, we really need ones that are shorter

31:57

word count, larger font, full color illustrations every page.

31:59

and the only really ones I could find at

32:01

the time were Nate the

32:04

Great and Mercy Watson. And

32:07

it was a hard sell. There was not a

32:09

big market for it. A lot of publishers rejected

32:11

it. They wanted us to make them longer

32:13

and change them. I was like, no, I swear there's a market

32:15

for this. I just know it. And

32:17

so we really were very persistent in

32:20

our view of it. At

32:22

every stage, people pushed back, but we really

32:24

knew what we wanted with this book. Not

32:26

only the premise and the way of telling

32:28

the story, but the format and

32:31

all of it. And Candlewick just got

32:33

it. So we went with Candlewick. They

32:36

also published Mercy Watson, so it just was a no-brainer.

32:39

And the response again was so immediate.

32:41

I love these books so much. If

32:43

all my gravestones said, I don't want

32:45

a gravestone, just bury me somewhere. But

32:47

if I had one, if all it said

32:49

was author of The Princess in Black, I

32:52

would be happy. The joy of those books,

32:54

the way we hear of kids learning to read

32:56

for the first time on these books, or

33:00

kids who are older, who didn't have strong reading

33:02

skills, but they still wanted to read a chapter

33:04

book, but they were trying to read books that

33:06

were too hard for them because they weren't there.

33:08

And these were chapter books that they could cut

33:11

their teeth on and then they feel proud of

33:13

themselves that they read them and their reading confidence

33:15

goes up and they are able to more tackle

33:17

more books. At every stage, it's been nothing but

33:19

just joy, joy, joy. Yeah, it's the same sort

33:22

of thrust as with the graphic

33:24

novels. I mean, not exactly the same,

33:26

but where you see someone who struggles

33:28

with the traditional dense, thick book and

33:32

defining themselves as a non-reader and

33:35

then having them encounter a

33:37

graphic novel or a book like this and having

33:39

them be able to do it themselves, it

33:41

switches. That negative voice in your head that says,

33:43

you're not a reader, you're not capable, it has

33:46

evidence to the contrary. I was like,

33:48

I had very high standards for this. And I

33:50

had advice that were like, okay, then you can't

33:52

call it The Princess in Black, you can't have Princess in the

33:54

title and you can't have her on the cover, you have to

33:56

disguise that it's about a girl. I said, absolutely not. I

33:59

want it obvious. the title, I want the cover. I

34:01

want it to be so clear that

34:03

it's about a girl and about a princess and they're

34:05

still gonna love it. And then people won't have a

34:07

place to stand out anymore when they say that boys

34:09

won't read about girls. Oh yeah, I love that. And

34:11

like my son, he definitely loved them. And do you

34:14

get a lot of boys telling you that they love

34:16

the series? Oh yeah, boys come

34:18

with their parents and they read all the

34:20

books and they love them. We get pictures

34:22

of little boys dressed up as the princess

34:24

in black, the princess in black's handily sidekick,

34:27

which he doesn't exist yet, but he's made

34:29

it up. It's just beautiful.

34:31

And older boys who grew up with

34:33

them, like, oh, I love the princess in black.

34:35

I was recently at a high school. I

34:38

was doing presentation at high school and high school is

34:40

a very different kind of a crowd and

34:42

they're onto you immediately and you

34:45

cannot pander to them. And

34:47

you have to be really honest. But

34:50

there was this one kid who was kind of making wisecracks of

34:52

the audience. So I kind of zeroed in on him and I

34:54

asked his name and he told me and I pretended

34:57

to miss here and I just kept calling him the wrong

34:59

name throughout. And so I'd make a point, I'd refer to

35:01

him by his name and be like, David knows

35:03

what I'm talking about. And so we had this

35:05

kind of thing going on. And then I showed princess in black

35:07

and I said, I raised your hand if you've

35:09

grown up with this book. And

35:11

a lot of people raised their hands, but David didn't.

35:13

And I said, David, I know you did. I

35:16

know you love this series. And he said, my little

35:18

sister did. I was like, yeah, right, David. Yeah, right.

35:21

It was your little sister that read princesses, but you didn't

35:23

read every single book. I'm onto you, David, and I know.

35:26

And then later, during question and

35:28

answer, he raised his hand. He said, yeah, I read princess

35:30

back. I really liked it. That's

35:32

what's so cool about having a series like this. This has

35:35

been going on long enough that they're

35:37

teenagers now. That had grown

35:39

up with this series and

35:42

been a part of those books you read as kids.

35:44

They become part of your DNA in a really fabulous,

35:46

interesting way. I mean, you were making a joke about,

35:48

you know, grow up and believe in gender equality and

35:51

all that. I mean, but I think that there's a

35:53

lot of truth. I'm not joking. That's

35:55

how high my ideals are. That's how high my hope

35:57

is. I really think that I'm not saying that I

35:59

can. and Princess of Black is going to solve

36:01

everything and create world peace. But

36:04

absolutely, it is a very

36:06

real, influential piece of

36:08

the puzzle when kids read

36:10

stories or see movies, engage

36:12

in media about girls or

36:14

anything that's beyond their personal

36:16

experience. Kids of different races,

36:18

kids of different orientations, whatever. It

36:21

just creates a space in their brain to say these are

36:23

people who exist if they're not in my family and in

36:25

my friend group. The brain still

36:28

absorbs them through the story as

36:30

being real people. And

36:32

the brain makes space for these people

36:34

living in the world. And I think

36:36

that's one reason why the book bands,

36:38

I mean, they're ridiculous in so many

36:40

ways, of course, because there's the internet.

36:42

So claiming that the books are pornography

36:44

when they're clearly not, and

36:47

when there's actual pornography available on these,

36:49

their smartphones 24 seven. It's

36:51

very silly to be targeting books. But

36:54

the truth about books is that they

36:56

create empathy in a very real way.

36:58

When we're reading a story, we're engaged,

37:00

even more than when we're watching a

37:02

movie, our brains are engaged so deeply.

37:05

It's just like we're meeting these people and we're knowing

37:07

them in a way that you can't, because

37:09

you can't get inside someone else's head. You

37:11

actually have to imagine that you have to

37:13

put all those pieces together very personally. Nobody

37:16

else can do it for you. And

37:18

now you feel like you've got a

37:21

friend, a best friend who's a girl

37:23

who is black or- Unapologetically feminine. Or

37:25

yes, or is

37:27

gay, or whatever the character is that if

37:29

you are not, and they're in your heart

37:31

now and you care about them, you have

37:33

empathy for them, that's gonna create a

37:35

space in you just to be more compassionate and

37:38

accepting of everyone. And

37:41

for some people, that's dangerous. That

37:43

idea is dangerous. For me, it's

37:45

like, that's heaven on earth. At

37:48

my company, Beanstack, my colleague, Megan's daughter,

37:50

Lauren, is a diehard princess and black

37:52

fan. She actually dressed up as the

37:54

princess in black for Halloween, very adorable.

37:56

And she was super excited about this

37:59

interview, so of course we had to

38:01

make room for her to ask a

38:03

question of her own. Your

38:05

stories are focused on the importance

38:07

of friendship. What advice do

38:10

you have for being a good friend? My

38:12

advice for being a good friend is

38:15

kind of the same as my advice

38:17

for everything. It's

38:19

just be kind to yourself. If

38:22

you can be compassionate with yourself with

38:24

where you are, it's

38:26

the key to healthy

38:28

friendship and selfhood and

38:31

everything. I think whenever

38:33

we start in that place of self-compassion,

38:37

then we can be kind to ourselves for

38:39

our mistakes and give ourselves room to make mistakes and then

38:41

learn from them and then get better and grow and that's

38:44

gonna make you a better friend and everything else. But

38:46

also when we have self-compassion, that compassion flows out

38:48

of us towards other people. And when we can

38:50

have compassion for our friends, things

38:52

are just gonna go better in their relationship.

38:55

So anytime we can just infuse

38:57

that compassion, which is like, I

38:59

would say it's like a good

39:01

feeling, a positive, hopeful, loving feeling

39:05

and notice and acceptance kind

39:07

of living in that energy is

39:10

gonna make everything go better. What is

39:12

your favorite book? Taking

39:15

inspiration from her series, The Princess

39:17

in Black for Shannon's reading challenge,

39:20

favorite early chapter books, she's put

39:22

together a list of thoughtful and

39:24

engaging early chapter books for all

39:26

readers. Early chapter books, I think

39:28

are so hard to do

39:30

well. I think there's a

39:32

misconception that because they're shorter and for younger

39:34

kids, that they're somehow easier.

39:37

And what I found is it's

39:39

really hard when I had kids that age,

39:42

it was really hard for me to find

39:44

really engaging, well-written, great,

39:46

interesting books. And

39:48

writing Princess in Black, we know it is

39:50

not easy. It is really tough

39:52

to do. So there are certain ones that I think,

39:55

I love these.

39:57

And I'm always excited to hand them out.

39:59

I think there's... so vital because we lose

40:01

so many readers between the age

40:04

when they're having picture books read to them and they're

40:06

reading all the phonic books trying to learn how to

40:08

read and it stops being

40:10

fun. They need books that are at

40:12

their level that are fun. So

40:14

I put together a list of books

40:16

that I think are delightful and can

40:19

reach kids where they are. You

40:22

can find Shannon's reading challenge

40:24

and all past author reading

40:26

challenges at thereadingculturepod.com. This

40:34

week we're featuring Addie Huertas, the

40:36

program manager of youth, family, and

40:38

equity services at the San Diego

40:40

Public Library, which is also a

40:42

Beanstack partner. But in this case,

40:44

the important part is that she

40:46

serves on the Presidential Advisory Committee

40:49

for the incoming American Libraries Association,

40:51

President Cindy Holtz. ALA is

40:53

having its annual conference in San Diego starting

40:55

on June 27th and

40:57

Addie stopped by to share a bit about

40:59

what to expect this year. ALA's

41:02

2024 theme is exploring

41:04

issues that affect libraries and

41:06

their communities. A lot

41:09

of the programs will include

41:11

topics that span from health

41:14

and wellness, strategic partnerships, community

41:16

engagement, justice involved services, and

41:20

AI, and of course intellectual

41:22

freedom. Some of the

41:24

expected highlights include the opening session

41:26

with Trevor Noah and the President's

41:28

program that will feature library workers

41:30

and honor and celebrate library workers

41:32

and they work in engagement that

41:34

they are doing across the country.

41:37

And even if you can't attend in real

41:39

life this year, there are many ways that

41:41

Addie says you can support ALA. Folks

41:44

can support ALA in many

41:46

different ways. At any time,

41:48

you can go online and

41:50

donate at ala.org. Also

41:53

become an ALA member, attend

41:55

annual conference, and

41:57

give back in a way of

41:59

getting involved. with committees or running

42:01

for office. And that

42:04

support really helps with our

42:06

advocacy efforts. We have an

42:08

Office of Intellectual Freedom that

42:10

really is working hard on

42:12

behalf of libraries and library

42:14

users. And of course, our

42:17

efforts to promote literacy, community

42:19

outreach, and strengthening libraries nationwide.

42:22

Finally, you know I had to ask Addie

42:24

about a book that made an important impact

42:26

on her life. Too Many

42:28

Tamales by Gary Soto is a book

42:30

that changed my life. As

42:33

a middle schooler who had recently

42:35

moved to this country and struggled

42:37

to learn English and really struggled

42:39

to read, I discovered

42:41

that book through a read aloud.

42:44

And I felt like it was the

42:47

first time that I

42:49

had seen a book with

42:51

characters that look like me and families

42:53

that look like mine. So that having

42:55

that representation and a story that I

42:57

could connect to with the lead character Maria

43:00

really got me excited

43:03

about reading in a way that I

43:05

had not been excited before. Back

43:07

then there wasn't a lot of representation in

43:10

those books. And to me, I could

43:13

not put down too many tamales and

43:15

I just read that book over and

43:17

over and over again because it felt

43:20

like it was telling my story. Don't

43:22

you just love that? All right, y'all.

43:25

If you're at ALA, please stop by to say

43:27

hi to us at the Beanstack booth. This

43:33

has been the Reading Culture and you've

43:35

been listening to my conversation with Shannon

43:38

and Dean Hale. Again, I'm

43:40

your host, Jordan Lloyd-Bookie. And currently

43:42

I'm reading Attack of the Black

43:44

Rectangles by A.S. King and

43:47

Just for the Summer by Abby Jimenez.

43:49

If you enjoyed today's episode, please show

43:52

some love and give us a five-star

43:54

review. It just takes a second and

43:56

really helps. This episode was produced by

43:59

Jackie Lamport and Lower Street Media and

44:01

script edited by Josiah Lamberto-Egan. To

44:03

learn more about how you can

44:05

help grow your community's reading culture,

44:07

you can check out all of

44:09

our resources at beanstack.com. And

44:11

remember to sign up for

44:14

our newsletter at thereadingculturepod.com/newsletter for

44:16

special offers and bonus content.

44:18

Thanks for listening and keep

44:20

reading.