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0:32

400 Mini Games list is revealed. Mudd

0:35

has fixed the Nintendo design floor, and

0:38

we get the story of Domok

0:40

and Eidos with co-founder Dominic Wheatley.

0:51

And the Retro Hour podcast is brought

0:54

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0:56

our wonderful mates at Bitmap Books. Now,

0:58

have you seen from Anster Zombies, Six

1:01

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1:03

covers all the genres from rail shooters

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1:07

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1:12

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the rest of their retro gaming collection

1:16

at bitmapbooks.com. Hello

1:20

and welcome to the Retro Hour podcast episode

1:23

number 416, your

1:25

weekly dose of retro gaming and technology news

1:27

with me, Dan Wood, me, Ravi Abbott, and

1:29

me, Joe Fox. And a very warm welcome

1:32

to the podcast, a show that each and

1:34

every Friday celebrates the world of classic video

1:36

games. Now, today's been all over my social

1:38

media timeline. I share this with you guys

1:40

earlier on, but, uh, Sony, I think have

1:43

announced that the PlayStation 5 is kind of

1:45

coming towards the end of its life. Which...

1:47

Does that mean it's retro? Oh, that sounds ridiculous to

1:49

me. I was looking at that thinking, I haven't finished

1:51

playing with the PlayStation 1 yet. They

1:53

haven't even released GTA yet, you know.

1:57

We don't care about all that stuff though. This is why, you know,

1:59

every week on the podcast, Cause we celebrate the classic

2:01

days of game and be eighties or nineties.

2:03

The two thousand symptoms of Only Was will

2:05

still all kinds of stuff on the podcast

2:07

and Uncle Sam. It's been an amazing week

2:09

for us because we've had so many people.

2:12

Taken. As and social media posts probably

2:14

wearing back retro out t shirts and

2:16

showing us the ot for set side.

2:18

since holding up their books which have

2:20

been arriving all around the world over

2:22

the last couple of days. it takes

2:24

a while for their shipments to get

2:26

across doesn't I am? So we're waiting

2:28

for it to hit America and then

2:30

we saw it hit New York fast

2:33

and guest star a gang around a

2:35

meager bell hot warm but also in

2:37

Australia such as It's It's literally on

2:39

the opposite side of the world now

2:41

which is amazing to. Say yeah I think

2:43

what landed in Canada this morning. We got

2:45

tagged in a pitcher so I'm stemming for

2:47

anyone to bite or kickstarter. that read about

2:49

a year ago we did send over you

2:52

can autumn books out and Joe is be

2:54

package not household. have a Christmas what you

2:56

pretty much every night and with to call

2:58

loads of them. To. The By so

3:00

I do mentors by will size car journeys

3:02

yeah have remained you down and the Us

3:04

by some. My wife drives the post office

3:07

good post Alamos go at not the east

3:09

coast. Pretty much it

3:11

turned out Royal Mail for the Uk

3:13

with the yeah. The. Best option for

3:15

his interestingly which is there are quite while.

3:18

And. Then am a German princess as he

3:20

disappeared and arrested world yeah I'm which is

3:22

vague sense how few weeks later didn't night

3:24

and ah yes and no twenty Fourth of

3:26

January as much as our on so am

3:28

I have been arriving now though they ever

3:30

did say to be like six to eight

3:32

weeks perhaps and other asked them for some

3:34

people under masters everyday but the was my

3:36

book was my boats the are are that

3:38

we sent every cop yeah now Paul from

3:41

there is eighteen bookstore outstanding from my people

3:43

have instilled in the kickstarter survey successor to

3:45

reach out to them appear as if we

3:47

guarantee a jump mail. Then yes hopefully will

3:49

catch on the podcast than et al easy.

3:51

We actually got deliver it without an address

3:53

Saturday so view as you're listening. Any bucks

3:55

our kickstarter for the book anything in my

3:57

doesn't and of yes please login six thousand.

4:00

What's your keys or that survey and because glad you're

4:02

dressed as rev he said in a bow to posted

4:04

so s as I do so it's all the love

4:06

as well. I'm a nurse that i feel like that

4:08

i don't know jinx things but not seen a single

4:10

but comment about the book. The. Agenda against

4:12

the other say a screen it loaded tweets and

4:14

outcrops. Sit and big I'm into love is been

4:16

overwhelming says thank you so much to everyone who's

4:19

as simple it as I am reddit and that

4:21

as the said the Los on the social as

4:23

well. So it's been us and incredible Just and

4:25

that book out there. very very proud of it.

4:28

So s a hub you enjoy as well. Now

4:30

on the podcast this week we have gotten Amazing

4:32

Guest and Das I said to rob Ya

4:34

So we did this entity because I am. I

4:36

always love it when we get the the proper

4:39

oh gee guys. On Oh yes

4:41

yeah and of is absolutely huge

4:43

companies as well. Yeah I mean

4:45

if we're talking British gaming companies

4:47

at don't Mock a Monday was

4:49

siege back in the eighties in

4:51

originally on the the I Bet

4:54

platforms in other side with Ssm,

4:56

Eureka and the in Livingston actually

4:58

wrote. Am A. He was an

5:00

early investor in the company's well of course when

5:02

I'm see where it's kind of Games Workshop and

5:04

then very early on a means they have this

5:06

interesting initiative on that dame and earned him on

5:08

us in this is about Nineteen Eighty Four I

5:10

see side the game time outs and they also

5:13

plays a chance to win. Twenty.

5:15

Five thousand pounds is he finished the

5:17

game. Which. You

5:19

know you think so the time. That.

5:21

Was incredible to some it's Dominic are we

5:23

talking to this week and upon the mark

5:26

mass would die Much Transports basically an amalgamation

5:28

of dominate Much Save Us Had a marketing

5:30

background. Something. You know, compared to

5:32

many of the company heads with Adam is

5:34

bogus, A lot of which have like in

5:36

a background in programming for example. I think

5:38

their experience in marketing. Which. Is where

5:41

they came from. really at a different

5:43

perspective. didn't and my mother died he

5:45

the Institute two different lens buggy I

5:47

went. When you're in video game publishing

5:49

it's all about getting has like as

5:51

as and kind again those rights, packaging

5:53

stuff correctly. And I in a getting

5:55

him in the right. People's. eyes and

5:57

this was a time before you

6:00

know, they were in the retail stores on mass

6:02

in the UK. So, you

6:04

know, you're kind of taking a bit of a risk there as

6:06

well. And, you know, Ocean, we're

6:08

another another huge company that had a

6:10

lot of licenses as well. And we

6:13

covered some great licenses in this.

6:15

A championship manager, which is one

6:17

that people are still absolutely obsessed

6:20

with. There was

6:22

some Star Wars licensing as well. You

6:24

know, Domar Brown, absolutely huge company. And

6:26

then they kind of turned into this

6:29

this beast with so many companies

6:31

getting involved. And when they went

6:33

public, they also did Tomb

6:35

Raider. You know, that's a

6:38

pretty big game there. And we

6:40

talk about the early days of Domar, how

6:42

it started, you know, getting some

6:44

of the great licenses, the establishment of it and

6:47

then hitting Tomb Raider. Yeah, I mean, how that

6:49

company just absolutely spiraled. I mean, it blew up,

6:51

didn't that? I mean, you know, pretty much from

6:53

the coming out of the gate, you know, they

6:55

were there with that first game, Eureka, that just

6:57

got so much press coverage and then this huge

6:59

licenses, converting all the Atari coin ups as well.

7:01

It's a championship manager. And then, you know, Tomb

7:04

Raider, when that came along in the

7:06

90s, when they merged with Eidos, that

7:09

reverse takeover. Fascinating story and just incredible

7:11

to get it from one of the

7:13

founders of the company. So our special

7:15

guest, proper industry legend, Dominic Wheatley.

7:17

He's going to be coming up on the

7:19

show in around half an hour from now.

7:22

Now, you know the way the podcast works. If you're

7:24

a regular listener, the first half of the show is

7:26

when we like to do a little roundtable chat and

7:28

bring you up to speed on all the big happenings

7:30

in the world of retro from over the last seven

7:32

days. And this story just keeps on

7:34

giving us more details. I mean, we've all been kind of hyped

7:36

for the Atari 400 Mini,

7:39

which is the next. I call it

7:41

a mini console. It's really a mini

7:43

computer, though, isn't it? From Retro Games

7:45

Limited and Atari in the US, I

7:47

think, releasing it over there. This

7:49

is a system that's basically a modern mini

7:52

recreation of the legendary Atari 400 computer. And

7:55

I've said on the podcast, I'm very excited to get my

7:57

hands on this. Obviously, you guys have heard a bit more.

8:00

since we started talking about it. You guys tempted

8:02

by this system at all? Yeah, if

8:04

I kind of had the space in my

8:06

house. It's not even a

8:08

mini system, Ravi. It's in the size of your

8:11

phone. Yeah, yeah, but still, you know, it's plug

8:13

sockets. It's all that kind of stuff. Doesn't

8:16

have to be set up constantly, Ravi. I was going to say, it's the

8:18

weirdest excuse for not getting the system I think I've ever heard. Ravi's

8:21

sounding like an old man these days. But I know, I

8:23

see what you're saying. If you're not going to play it

8:25

and it's just going to sit there in the box and

8:28

take up room, etc., I understand.

8:31

And I'm probably in the same boat

8:34

as Ravi. I'm probably not going to grab it, but I think

8:36

that's just because of, I haven't got

8:38

any nostalgia for it, which... Well, neither have

8:40

I, but to me, it's something that, because

8:42

it's something I've never used before and I've

8:44

heard about, that's what intrigues me, I think.

8:46

It's a platform I've never explored before. Yeah,

8:49

I understand that. And quite a few people on

8:51

the Hangout, you know, our

8:53

monthly Hangout, we do, with Patreons, quite a few

8:56

people were talking on there saying, you know, they haven't played

8:58

it and stuff, because obviously it was a lot bigger in

9:00

America than it was in Europe. And,

9:02

you know, a few

9:05

of our listeners were saying on there, yeah,

9:07

you know, they want to play it because

9:09

they never have played it. They've never seen

9:11

one, nor they've only seen them

9:13

at conventions and stuff. I know this isn't,

9:15

you know, it's a recreation of one, etc. So I

9:17

get that element of it as well, but it just,

9:19

I don't know, it just, it looks

9:21

cool. I like the look of it and

9:23

everything. Like, obviously it's super retro. Yeah. It's

9:26

too old school for you, maybe. Maybe. Play

9:28

the 70s. Yeah, maybe. But

9:30

yeah, I mean, if just the reason

9:33

we talked about it is announce the

9:35

full line up for

9:37

the built-in games. And there's 25 of them,

9:39

which is nice to see. Yeah. I

9:41

mean, we won't go through them all, because like you said,

9:43

there is a hell of a lot of them on here.

9:45

Yeah. But I mean, there is a few that kind of

9:47

leap out to me. Battle Zone,

9:50

which of course, Legendary Game. You've

9:53

got Boulde Dash on there as well, which, you

9:55

know, if I think of like those kind of classic Atari titles,

9:57

that's one that stands out. We have Peter Leeper on the podcast

9:59

and Wayne Ravi. like yeah yeah years ago.

10:01

Ascentopede's on there which you know Ascentopede

10:03

appears to be on like you know

10:05

every single Atari collection and same with

10:07

Millipede that's on there as well and

10:10

we've got minor 2049ers on there

10:12

too, Hover Bover which

10:14

is a very quirky maze game. Hover

10:17

Bover I've got a feeling that could be the

10:19

Jeff Minter game I'm thinking else yeah that came

10:21

out the things that stand out to me on

10:24

it Star Raiders 2. Yep Star Raiders 2 is

10:26

on there. I'd love to play that and you

10:28

know experience that in a 720p but

10:30

also Mule as well because I know it's got

10:32

the four player input as

10:35

well. Yeah and you know having

10:37

a multiplayer title on there's pretty

10:39

cool. Yes I think you

10:41

know the thing is with these systems it's I

10:43

find it quite hard to get excited about the the

10:46

built-in games list. I mean it was

10:48

the same with the A500 Mini I mean yeah there

10:51

was like you know a few alright Amiga games on

10:53

there but the main appeal to this is you know

10:55

you can literally just download all the ROMs from

10:57

the internet and work it on a USB stick

10:59

so really the built-in games are kind of you

11:02

know irrelevant really. That's the thing like I'm not

11:04

massively excited because I've seen the games before everywhere

11:06

else and they've been put

11:08

on quite a few times onto quite

11:10

a few systems you know and

11:12

we've had the Atari 50th collection that's had a

11:14

yeah a lot of a lot of the same

11:17

software with it but yeah I get it you

11:19

know and people obviously they're gonna hack it they're

11:21

gonna put all sorts in there and it

11:24

does look quite nice if you're into that yeah. I

11:26

mean that's the thing for me I mean you know

11:28

I mentioned on the podcast last week that when I

11:30

got my A500 Mini first thing I did was try

11:32

to get you know the Amiga word bench running on

11:34

there. A couple of other games anyway but I thought

11:36

can I get the operating system running on it and

11:38

I'm looking at this and I'm thinking to me I

11:41

kind of want to drop into like you know can

11:43

I get basic running on it and do some programming

11:45

that kind of thing so I'd be interested

11:47

to play around with it and kind of see if

11:49

that is possible. Do you think there's any

11:51

like Obvious missing ones there,

11:53

that would be. You know the big titles

11:55

that would bring people in? I Think they've

11:58

got. They've got the lot there, really.. The

12:00

I'm in the last thing I'm a i'm know

12:02

all that familiar with the Tories Orange library which

12:04

to me is it's kind of a close because

12:06

sometimes you go into a system and if you

12:08

are the to wherever you can adjust gravitates yeah

12:10

due date is a lot am a sex with

12:12

me I wouldn't know what others do in our

12:14

sober at enjoy in A and sometimes you might

12:16

find that you really like like a game and

12:18

then he says you go into a website and

12:20

suddenly you find out I see the rest of

12:22

the committee's exams. Game is dreadful. The. It's

12:24

a nice yard so that was alright for

12:26

okay play about that so that's a few.

12:28

The I wasn't the you know heard people

12:31

talking about on the plane of course F

12:33

played stuff I Millipede and in I'm On

12:35

a Twenty Four in I know is meant

12:37

to be kind of like a the precursor

12:39

to Manic Mana of Into took a lot

12:41

of influence from the by I'll Lay Israel.

12:44

Is. Meant to be really good. The Air Marshal arts

12:46

one. Putting. It is a nice or selection like

12:48

said that you know I'm I'm not really knowledgeable about. A.

12:50

Law those games or mass of off my

12:53

inner that the Pulsar, the Atari yeah are

12:55

tied titles boss. I'm looking forward see kind

12:57

of just exploring a system the I'm unfamiliar

12:59

with especially with us. Nutshell of the maker

13:01

of is like having that j Minor heritage

13:03

as well an unobstructed emulate days but I

13:06

think living on earth and many system Mr

13:08

Ness has been tested Ninos can have on

13:10

them well and for having the ass that

13:12

rewind and sees consumption. Excessively

13:15

way to get will be Ss and

13:17

is announcements I think someone is Epic

13:19

Games my mates now be welcome addition

13:21

sets not long slightest coming up next

13:23

month and Twenty eight so much as

13:25

on Ninety Nine Ninety nine Uk pounds

13:27

and that preorders are available on Retro

13:29

Games The missus, what silence up And

13:31

as soon as now at Joe's those

13:33

guys I peeled for new mega drive

13:35

games and ago a sites and this

13:37

one which is that launching on Kickstarter

13:39

and well yesterday at a time when

13:41

his pockets comes out but at the

13:43

moment it. Said to preorder as we

13:45

record this on. Valentine's.

13:47

Day. Vindicating. Lived up. And

13:51

Loved! Loved up for Rocket Panda.

13:53

Yeah yeah, this is Rocket Panda

13:55

coming today. A second Exotics Sega

13:57

Genesis. on six of his car.

14:00

Like say launching Lay in this week

14:02

by the point of had a show

14:04

come out. would have lunch yesterday and

14:06

got my on this one. I really

14:08

really really like the look of this

14:10

as be it'll It does look beautiful

14:12

and then it's coming to a so

14:14

it's been published and released by Mega

14:16

Cassius. And who's done quite a few

14:18

these narrow wicket. And. Is being developed

14:21

by Space Pants Games. Ah, who

14:23

are two guys Julian Scumbag Navarrette

14:25

who are behind that who have

14:27

been in the industry for plot

14:29

while for my understand. And.

14:31

Yeah Rocket Panda it's a it's

14:33

a classic to d platform. But.

14:36

You are flying around as I say as

14:38

a panda with a jetpack. And

14:40

graphically. A

14:43

breed He does remind me. Subject.

14:45

Out and you know they are persists the

14:47

guys who making this year the graphic style

14:49

of it really is him since he of

14:51

those kind of old school code mass death.

14:54

You. Know like in a tizzy and you

14:56

know reminds me of a bit that

14:58

Robots hard. Feelings

15:00

for our society and and any that

15:02

as yeah, Robocop, don't it must be

15:05

a James Bond to. Road.

15:07

At Robocop and even the music. reminds.

15:09

Me of that. unlike. Bass. Real

15:12

in a spouse for me. As

15:14

an So, in terms of gameplay,

15:16

it's hard to describe to you

15:18

kind of floating around. The.

15:20

Not going to the story of the game a

15:23

funny you enter the thrilling world of biscuit land.

15:25

And have to save it from the clutches

15:28

of the wicked. Discuss: Had. Nice.

15:31

To have a lot of risk at. A

15:34

better fighter jet to get a smack on

15:36

the back of a hundred a month. So

15:38

yeah. Gameplay wise, you are traversing the levels.

15:40

kind of like dodging the obstacles, does any

15:42

enemies and stuff. but then. He

15:45

asked to rescue. He's. Little baby

15:47

pandas from cages. so it kind of

15:49

reminds me of kind of like James

15:51

Pond. Meets. sonic free

15:53

day you know the slicker one was sick

15:55

fucks the flick isn't drop them off that's

15:57

why it reminds me of obviously with the

16:00

2D graphics. I really really like

16:02

the look of this and I think I'm gonna go ahead and

16:04

back at this because I'd love to have

16:06

this in the collection and you know on physical cartridge on

16:08

the Mega Drive as well be wicked and British

16:11

develops and stuff and it's the

16:13

musically watching the trailer to it. It's

16:16

got that classic the Biscuit Land

16:18

makes sense and it reminds me

16:20

of Jones Pond too you know with the

16:22

what's the levels which were based around the

16:24

suites and stuff just the music in there

16:26

and that classic Mega Drive

16:28

like twang. I thought it looks a bit

16:31

snazzy to me. Do you think?

16:33

Yeah yeah just like the colours in there

16:35

but yeah. It is colourful but I don't

16:37

know I just I can't get my head

16:39

away away from James Pond. Yeah that was

16:42

the first thing I thought of as well

16:44

especially cause I mean. Or Wonder Dog. Even

16:46

like you know that Biscuit connection cause I

16:49

mean you know it was James Pond was

16:51

sponsored by McViti's Penguins I think wasn't sponsored

16:53

that game so like they were like Jamie

16:55

Dodges or someone should sponsor this. They're gonna

16:58

tie in there. That's a good idea

17:00

actually I like that. It was very nostalgic

17:02

though I mean this looks like a game that if you'd have told

17:04

me this game out in like 1992, 93 it

17:07

looks quite perfectly off that era doesn't it? Yeah

17:09

absolutely 100% that pure it's not like

17:13

oh it's you know one of these late

17:15

release Mega Drive games by like Treasure I

17:17

mean there is some of the you know

17:19

scrolling backgrounds and you know parallax scrolling and

17:21

stuff like that and some of the

17:23

enemies have got that kind of pseudo mode 7 look

17:25

to them which I guess is where Ravi says it

17:27

looks a little bit Super Nintendo but it 100% has

17:29

that kind of like mid Mega

17:32

Drive look to it like 92 93

17:34

look to it I would say. Yeah so that

17:36

is should be launched on Kickstarter by the time

17:38

this podcast comes out on Friday so if you

17:40

want to back that and get a proper old

17:43

school looking new game for your Mega Drive slash

17:45

Genesis let's put that in the show notes as well.

17:48

Now I've got to say when we talk about

17:51

gaming television It's

17:53

always a bit hit or miss, isn't it? I Mean

17:55

there are some absolute classics you know, Games Master obviously

17:57

in a bad influence which I love and I know.

18:00

That show and many got to you know Sigma the

18:02

ones I obviously to go I bet would you know

18:04

we were all signs of go I bet as as

18:06

a was that he was at decent and of watch

18:08

in I wasn't as good as like some like games

18:10

most of them a boss i thought to be something

18:13

i could sit down and watch for half an hour

18:15

and other it's the community was very split on max

18:17

a thinks I'm a to be complaint like oh it's

18:19

called a bit but the playing like in a playstation

18:21

two games on there was a games must come back

18:24

as well be i was a guy like what lights

18:26

at ucla like Elect's and this one is for interesting

18:28

cause all as we mentioned narrow down. A British.

18:31

In. Abundance of says well as. Game

18:34

chat that. Was

18:36

apparently a Tory. A.

18:38

Working on a. Video.

18:40

Game Celebrity Game Show.

18:43

That. Looks like it's going to be made in

18:45

America. And. Tentatively titled

18:47

the Great Atari Celebrities Show

18:50

them. What's. To come a

18:52

long time to come up with that

18:54

title. and apparently this is a couple of

18:56

exec produces J Bloom and Sailed and

18:58

Tony Moss to that of Honey. We're done

19:01

shows like those you've heard of any

19:03

least the Chelsea Handler shows. Nope.

19:05

Taken. The Newlyweds? Nope. G.

19:08

Glows? Nope. And restaurants

19:10

stakeouts help. And.

19:13

Tournament's of less? Oh yeah. Manner

19:15

night at at Us on a party the

19:17

got some category if you're into that. Gotta

19:19

show. See I'm I'm a gym like as

19:21

edited live in America at but again it

19:23

seems like an Atari are funny involved in

19:25

this in a wide rows. and who is

19:27

that? The tories of income you see I

19:29

would have been actively is now he's well

19:32

behind this and Aponte working with them and

19:34

apparently the the idea of this is to

19:36

base a bit of a walk down memory

19:38

lane and celebrate the history of gaming. The.

19:40

Coach of Entertainment's and The Joy

19:42

of Competing. Like. We are

19:44

kids they're saying so by some I can

19:46

only do anything because the incident. I think

19:49

it be simple challenges like they're not gonna

19:51

get people on and. Quizzed. Him

19:53

about centipede and stuff Geico Christmas cause I

19:55

have to as last year i know are

19:57

not like a boxer lot of these are.

20:00

What? Don't watch? Many of them Best in

20:02

a you see something. I'm a celebrity. He.

20:04

Be light, who's the celebrity? A hair like

20:07

cuts us off the A T for letting

20:09

those in those shows. It's was descriptions. I've

20:11

done some of those yeah people from of

20:13

a reality show. since the Us the end

20:15

up going on them but I can see

20:18

that. Maybe. If they do

20:20

like little challenges. says.

20:22

I just be like oh you know

20:24

both compete on this round of asteroids

20:26

so are these of him events is

20:28

weird because I've got a rollercoaster tycoon

20:31

in that some other know what the

20:33

chance cliff if it's successful along sit

20:35

town game by the comments and rollercoaster

20:37

tycoon wonder now you've said that because

20:39

of the me. I. Kind to

20:41

read it and sore as like. A

20:43

little bit more liner like all Christmas quest,

20:46

kind of like celebrity surround the annette. Got

20:48

to answer questions because I'm saying is over

20:50

is a rich pop culture of Atari Over

20:52

if they've over fifty years now. And.

20:54

I get sorry as a lot bigger in

20:56

in a while with a lot more influential

20:59

in american an ever was you know in

21:01

the tight so. it my mind went

21:03

straight to other going to be answering questions

21:05

as to put them robbie mentioning know. I.

21:07

Think it might go a step further. I don't think

21:09

they'll be playing the games. I think it might be

21:11

like. You're. Inside the game

21:13

against a wall. Why? They're like

21:15

you member? It's a knockout. Yeah

21:18

you know with like the giant.

21:20

You. Don't align ourselves with a giant inflatable with

21:22

and everything like that. I've got a feeling it

21:24

might be a little bit more like that. like

21:26

or with. Next game is Asteroids. But.

21:29

They have to like dodged like giant

21:31

boulder asteroids like like this as she's

21:33

cock up a dressing up as a

21:35

centipede. and yeah, I miss Adams. I

21:37

probably watch something like that. be much

21:39

more inclined to watch that with some

21:41

like said, you know, celebrities. Economizing. unit.

21:43

Will Smith for some cruz of. A

21:46

hassle of boat? maybe? some of you

21:48

know, Somebody. Kind of like

21:50

reality stars of the I think you know I'd

21:53

rather just watch a tv show about the history

21:55

of it's a hard sell. Yeah is a rather

21:57

large here and there are my three guys in

21:59

of it. but. As my taste but

22:01

you know of the offing. if anybody's gonna

22:03

do this is gonna be Atari isn't a

22:05

good been doing so much at the moment?

22:07

Yeah. That branding so much that

22:09

I'm. Yep! We will

22:11

saber am. I got my hopes

22:13

up for this because I have a what's

22:16

taken a second best way is just as

22:18

a job this weekend rather have to educate

22:20

like Israel but next week so I yeah

22:22

me details a very scans at the moment

22:24

but apparently they are a hard work on

22:26

that coming up with this so I'm will

22:28

less keep an eye out for and I'm

22:30

sick of your receipts as and when we

22:32

see it. So as an attack on the

22:34

article Alexander centers as well Now and did

22:36

you guys know that apparently the yeah the

22:39

Nintendo Entertainment System. As had a small.

22:41

Society. Nine years. Law.

22:44

Tell. Me more. Tell me more

22:46

about this law will have only

22:48

summer any as mother's as that

22:51

six this problem. With. The

22:53

original? Any yes and and

22:55

and this is caused by

22:57

what is cool. Bm Zero

23:00

insertions force cartridge connector. And.

23:02

As a name of it now this is obviously sees you.

23:05

Gotta. Regional. Any as you'll know that's the way it

23:07

works is you pop open little cover on the from.

23:10

Sliding. Thoughts in and a kind of goes and

23:12

then in the press it down in. Which.

23:15

Have no idea really why that was it

23:17

is design of the in my mind I'm

23:19

just thinking maybe it was designed to be

23:21

a bit similar see were of front loading

23:23

video recorder could be wrong but I'm fairly

23:25

certain it was because is because of the

23:27

video game cross when they brought you over

23:29

to America. Yeah they once it's in look

23:31

less like a games console a more like

23:33

a toy via or a Vhs player I

23:35

am I'm pretty sure I could be wrong.

23:37

I'm pretty sure that's what it was in

23:39

the reason it was initially package different the

23:41

robots to fight that. Because. It was

23:43

to avoid the looks of it being. A.

23:46

Video game console and I'm fairly certain as

23:48

well. You. Can play it without

23:50

pushing it down. I'm. Pretty

23:52

sure it will play is well if you just put

23:54

it in him and. But. the on but

23:57

i need sasol a around a couple make him out

23:59

well because the same Obviously when

24:01

you have a traditional cartridge

24:03

slot, for example like one on

24:05

a Super Nintendo or a Mega Drive, when

24:08

you push the cartridge down it goes into

24:10

a standard connector, it cleans

24:12

the pins a bit doesn't it? Because obviously any

24:15

grime or whatever is going to get scrubbed I

24:17

suppose when you're in certain and removing the cartridges.

24:20

However, they're saying that with the original

24:22

zero insertion force cartridge connector on the

24:24

NES it kind of lacked that element

24:26

allowing dirt and grime and

24:28

stuff to build up on it. Then obviously

24:30

there is a problem which is known as

24:33

the blinking light slot which generally what you

24:35

do then is you take the cartridge out, give it

24:37

a damn good blow, which everyone always

24:39

advises against, everyone's always done it for like 40

24:41

years, never, you know having anything to problem with

24:43

doing that. I was playing my

24:45

Super Nintendo the other day because you know we'd be playing

24:48

some games for the after hours, my ever drive wouldn't work

24:50

actually on it so I took it out and gave it

24:52

a good blow, put it in, well perfectly after that. But

24:55

the same that basically you know that was a reason that a

24:57

lot of people did that to blow the cart and blow some

24:59

of the dirt out that had accumulated on there. But

25:02

now there is a solution and this

25:04

is called the Ninchen draw. Now

25:07

looking at this you might think it's just a basic kind of 72 pin

25:10

connector that means you can just shove the cartridge

25:12

straight in. But the

25:14

way this works is it essentially creates a straight

25:16

shot straight to the cartridge slot without it going

25:18

down. Right. So there

25:21

have been a few of these over the years. There's

25:24

one called the blinking light win that

25:27

came out a few years back now. But

25:30

the same there is a few other tricks on here as

25:32

well that basically make it a lot more reliable. So

25:34

there are some beta testers that are testing this

25:37

out at the moment. No word on

25:39

pricing from what I've seen so far. But

25:42

looking through some of the comments on the tweets, there

25:44

have been some people that have, I mean it

25:46

kind of feels like the camp's kind of split into two

25:49

separate people. I mean there is some people

25:51

saying that they've never had a problem

25:53

with the original design of the NES. And I've got

25:55

to say I kind of probably more fall into that

25:57

category. That yeah when I have had a cartridge not

25:59

work. it out give it a blow put it back

26:01

in it pretty much works 99% of

26:03

the time. But then

26:05

there is a video actually linked up that

26:08

it's not the best film video I've ever

26:10

seen but it's on a channel called Games

26:12

done legit where he's actually made his own

26:14

mod and that means you don't have to buy

26:17

any of these kind of additional you

26:20

know modifications for your NES some of

26:22

which can be quite expensive apparently but basically

26:24

he shows you that there is a

26:26

routine for cleaning the consoles pins on here

26:29

and also lifting the pins of the

26:31

72 pin connector on there that means they

26:33

will connect better with game cartridges

26:36

and basically it kind of opens it up gives it

26:38

a clean with some brasso and rubbing

26:40

alcohol as well and raises

26:43

the pins up so they're always going

26:45

to connect with the cartridges. So

26:47

it looks like I mean if you're willing to open your NES and you

26:51

know play around with it yourself

26:53

and do a bit of a bit of

26:55

DIY you can do it yourself but I imagine with

26:57

this Nintendo or it is going to be something that

26:59

just kind of slots in. Yeah these

27:02

things over time you know they

27:04

kind of get damaged like I

27:06

remember the rum chips

27:08

on my Amiga 4000 the

27:11

little plastic clips broke on those and had to

27:13

get them replaced and taken out and then you

27:16

know get the board kind of cleaned up and get

27:18

a better connector in there. I

27:20

just feel like it's such a heavy mod to

27:23

it like you know I mean it looks the

27:26

little video of it here that they've got obviously

27:28

it's heavily modded NES because they've put a clear

27:30

shell on it so you can see which you

27:32

know so you can see what's happening and

27:35

it does it feels it looks so alien

27:37

to not see it get pushed down yeah

27:39

and it's funny you know because it fits and everything you

27:42

know fine but it just I mean it's

27:44

way beyond anything I'd be able to do. Well I've got

27:46

a feeling look into this I think all you do is

27:48

you open the NES case you kind of put this in

27:50

the slot and then close it back up again I don't

27:52

think it needs any soldering or anything like that. Oh really?

27:54

Yeah but it's basically just a cartridge port extender really. Oh

27:57

okay fair enough I thought it was like a full-on okay

27:59

that's pretty easy. just take the top off, connect it

28:01

to the... Yeah, or maybe even just shove it in,

28:03

maybe don't have to take the top off actually looking

28:05

at it, it might just shove straight in the slot.

28:07

Basically, I guess it's less wear and tear on the

28:09

actual cartridge slot that's already in there, but yeah, I

28:11

mean, it's... Like I said, maybe there is a massive

28:13

problem with it, but I've always been fine just, you

28:15

know, I know it's not advised, give the

28:17

cart a lot of blow, put it in, GM works for

28:19

me, so I probably won't be investing in this, but if

28:21

you do want to get one, they are looking for beta

28:24

testers now, so you can offer your services. Just

28:27

one more story before we get into our

28:29

interview this week with an absolute legend of

28:31

the industry, Domark, founder, Eidos as well. Dominic

28:33

Wheatley is coming up on the podcast in

28:36

just a minute. Some good news if you

28:38

are a PC gamer of a

28:40

certain vintage, like our Mr Abbott, maybe

28:42

someone who hates the DRM, like our

28:45

Mr Abbott. You might be pleased

28:47

about this news, and apparently, classic

28:49

games on the PC that came on optical disc

28:52

that were protected by a certain

28:54

form of DRM called SafeDisc have

28:57

now been broken from their shackles.

29:00

So what does this mean? And

29:02

what was SafeDisc? I guess that was just like

29:04

a copy protection that was on the E-ROM and

29:06

DVD games? It was like an old copy protection.

29:08

You know, you'd have kind of

29:10

secure ROM as well, that was another one, and people

29:13

used to bypass it back in the days, but

29:15

what it would essentially do was it

29:18

would do like a digital fingerprint that

29:20

was connected to the machine on a

29:22

driver, or it would do a number,

29:25

basically assign a number to the disc.

29:29

You know, using that with your old

29:31

school CD-ROMs and

29:33

everything, that's like fine back in the

29:35

days with your old machine because it

29:37

would still go, ah, the CD's in

29:40

there, and it, you know, it would

29:42

communicate. But it's basically been a

29:44

problem, and the problem is that

29:47

SafeDisc no longer works on modern

29:49

versions of Windows, and

29:51

that's because there's like a vulnerability

29:53

in the driver. So, you

29:56

know, when you, you like run something on the

29:58

modern Windows and you get so many warnings. The

30:00

have. Like. Cold offer

30:02

burning any old school stuff which a lot

30:04

of as do all the time. What

30:07

items will break your Pc? Yeah, Yeah,

30:09

exactly. Never go? Yes, Yes. Okay, I

30:11

know what I'm doing. Yeah, so this

30:13

on the kind of warnings. Well, I'm

30:15

safe. This they just totally knocked it

30:17

off. Like. They were like yeah, you're

30:19

not gonna be able to use this and. And

30:22

I think oh stuff available on

30:24

Gog or hall you know that's

30:26

that's ways to do this with

30:28

some Pc games as not. You

30:31

know, sometimes you need the original desk and

30:34

you need to set that, put it in

30:36

and a boot open. You can't do that.

30:38

Or. You might is what do you regional copy not buy

30:41

it again. You know there's some of the really bugs

30:43

me like you know when I got gave him a

30:45

lie brain I'm like how many times rubble the and

30:47

digital as well as like a python again so many

30:49

times. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm

30:51

basically a new piece of software.

30:53

Has there been developed switches echoed

30:56

safe this him and since Twenty

30:58

fifteen, you've not been able to

31:00

use as safe desk on windows.

31:03

And as. A few people

31:05

were doing light sketchy stuff which

31:08

was kind of replacing the driver

31:10

with another driver but i also

31:12

cause like security problem some risks

31:14

as wow so instead of lie.

31:17

In of replacing the driver. This.

31:20

Enables you to have that protects him

31:22

but it intersects communication requests sentence had

31:24

a driver so it kind of it

31:26

goes in the middle of and sims

31:28

it which here in a shame is

31:30

basically an opening a lot you know

31:33

how can I love seeing see in

31:35

an open but I that's why this

31:37

is kind of death in it's it's

31:39

get in there and it's Garrett. It's

31:42

unusual games again and is weird as

31:44

well. Because it's is it. It's like

31:46

you're actually. using. A piece of

31:48

software to enable some kind of Drm school

31:50

system which is because I'm in Wendy's i

31:52

much when the skull can also mean looking

31:54

at the article and as he the com

31:56

as people like well as but a crack

31:58

for the games with. He

32:01

likes to pick the object of have a Drm

32:03

innocence and you can cross again so actually play

32:05

at Boston Seven Point. But I can imagine places

32:07

like you know. That a museums

32:09

that wanna play stuff or like if

32:11

you have a recollection like Osgood Sixty

32:13

eight Pc games in a cupboard just

32:15

around the corner and some of them

32:17

on some mine in a. And.

32:19

In some of these games I'm in

32:22

that I'm retitles dislike technology for apparently

32:24

had as as disco metaphysical release on

32:26

the Pc Age of Empires Dead at

32:28

Prince of Persia Assassin's Creed original one

32:30

more went some in Kuala games apparently

32:33

as he got the money collection and

32:35

now basically pliable on modern theses Italy

32:37

without of a workaround without may have

32:39

to lug my Windows Xp machine out

32:41

as he says in a cupboard. yeah

32:44

you've got up only sab anyway. Ravioli

32:46

tonight's ssssss can be some goodies as

32:48

you got a classic Tcl. Dvd collection

32:50

when applied. Money modern systems that's been read more

32:52

about the Alexa ups and of course the rest

32:54

of the stories It also gives all around us

32:56

as a vigil every week by putting them in

32:59

the pocket shown as we can head to the

33:01

web sites at the Retro our.com. right?

33:04

And dominant Wheatley get distorted.market I'd asked

33:06

him in up and just moments before

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then keep it here. We have

35:28

got the story of a true

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iconic, which is software company, talking

35:33

about some legendary titles as well.

35:35

Everything from Trivial Pursuit to James

35:37

Bond to Star Wars to Lara

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Domark's co-founder, Dominic Wheatley. He's

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apply. Dominic

36:59

Whaley, how's it going Dominic? Well,

37:02

thank you very much for having me on. I'm

37:04

delighted to be here talking with you. Yeah, I

37:06

really appreciate you taking the time to share some

37:08

domain memories with us. One thing

37:10

we always like to do with our guests, just to kind

37:12

of get a bit of background is, because I know you've

37:14

kind of got quite a, maybe a different background to a

37:17

lot of our guests who, you know, were passionate about computer

37:19

programming, for example. I know you kind of entered the industry

37:21

in quite a different route. So I'm just kind of interested

37:23

in how that started for you, what your first computing or

37:25

gaming experience was. What kind of happened there? Well,

37:29

it's, my journey has started off

37:31

fairly circuitously. I was actually

37:33

a soldier when I left

37:35

school and I joined,

37:38

as my father referred to

37:40

it, as the brigade of guards, in an

37:42

article called the Health of the Division, became

37:44

an Irish Guards officer, went to Santersk,

37:46

of course, and did

37:49

some time out in various

37:52

jungles of Central

37:54

America and other exciting

37:56

escapades. And then I, oh wait, it's a

37:58

short service. as commissions I

38:01

left after four years of total.

38:04

And I joined an advertising agency because

38:06

that was my first love, was really marketing.

38:09

And I've always enjoyed watching ads and

38:11

reading ads. And I loved this sort

38:13

of, you know, the theoretical selling, you

38:15

know, how do you, you

38:18

know, if you're in a car show, when you're in

38:20

car sales, when you have the customer in front of

38:22

you, if you're not, if

38:24

you are doing either a print ad in a

38:27

newspaper or a magazine, how do you

38:29

communicate the message across to persuade someone

38:31

to actually, what to control or the

38:33

phone or whatever. And I thought that

38:35

was absolutely, it would just up my street. And it sort of still

38:37

is in a way. But anyway, that was what

38:40

I did. I joined an ad agency

38:42

called Clark River Hill. And

38:44

I was a junior account executive.

38:46

And I did two years there. Now,

38:50

of course, in the officers' mess, we used

38:52

to play video games. You

38:55

know, even in the bars in

38:57

Paris, I would play breakout, space

39:00

invaders and things like that when

39:02

I was on holiday, you know, so I've

39:04

always enjoyed playing games, but as a sort

39:06

of consumer, I never thought of going into

39:08

that as a business or a profession.

39:11

But what changed, what changed was

39:14

that in Christmas, 83, I

39:18

saw my brother had come home, back to

39:20

family home in the common or 64. And

39:24

I'd never seen one of these before. And

39:27

he was playing game called Heroes of Khan.

39:30

And what I thought was incredibly different about

39:32

it was that instead of sort of wiggling

39:34

a joystick and shooting space invaders, it

39:37

was a pass-a-tech based sort of energy game. So you

39:39

type it, you kill the dwarf. And

39:41

it would say, ah, you kill the dwarf, and now

39:43

the gate is open, the values are, you know, and

39:45

there's little sort of graphic came up, not frankly, good

39:48

graphic or something. And I just couldn't believe it.

39:51

I thought, this is amazing. Because up at that

39:53

point, I don't know, some of your listeners are

39:55

probably rather younger than I've been. I mean, you

39:57

know, computers were things that were in.

40:00

Finance departments really never the new or

40:02

else as I was like wow this

40:04

is expected so I took it. I

40:06

took that idea of a way am

40:09

I thought. That. I would

40:11

go in pitch maybe Commodore

40:13

or full Sekai Sinclair and

40:15

when the advertising account. That.

40:18

Was the germ. Of my.

40:21

Interest in the games industry be

40:24

as industry. That's. Not fascinating. see

40:26

I like said a very unique entry into the

40:28

industry. There may not be before going to the

40:31

Sounding of Dough market mean I imagine the know

40:33

that the named oh Mark is an amalgamation as

40:35

you know where dominate and not di Maggio, Yoko

40:37

sound amok, Stratasys how did you may not The

40:39

on did he look at the agency video. He.

40:42

Did indeed Oh Barry Mine on

40:44

twenty four years old I know

40:46

nobody and they they know much

40:49

about anything right? and I didn't

40:51

have a the airport business experience

40:53

at Annapolis mates who have experienced

40:55

but I knew my uncle's because

40:57

we worked in this little agency

40:59

arm are we will same age

41:01

and are we going? well. And.

41:04

I had taken in the new Year

41:06

the idea of of try to win.

41:08

The Clyde in this newfangled in a

41:10

home computer world I'm back to the

41:13

used to live out or where he

41:15

walked upstairs to the office of Terry

41:17

Pooh Bear have Club Bouba Hill abuse

41:19

Lovely man asked her to the guy

41:21

and I went up and I was

41:23

going to talk to him about this

41:26

idea and I a digital and he

41:28

looked on the i can see that

41:30

he looks optimism his desk. And

41:32

I looked him. And I

41:34

just suddenly went know than an inner. So

41:38

I sit up and carry out. You know

41:40

what? out? Ah yeah, I'm going to come

41:42

back to you and I won't back down

41:44

the stairs and was a claimant My I

41:46

think I think I could do this. I

41:48

could. I could stop the company making these

41:50

games. So I

41:52

grabbed box and I said pub

41:54

now and we were in. It

41:57

is just a is and little

41:59

ups swear. Well, green and.

42:02

We. Were learn to the pub and I said

42:04

excited As a business books I do. I'll.

42:07

Explain it. As. It would you

42:09

like to join. This happened he said

42:11

he has a cost of that was

42:13

late or is it a doubling of

42:15

omar? Yup, exactly. Did.

42:17

You am have any idea of. Which

42:20

departments who needed in and or this company

42:22

was gonna work when you found that. Know.

42:25

Ah but I mean apart from this

42:27

of the obvious of you have girlfriends

42:30

or to pick a game and we

42:32

gotta be dope up a marked and

42:34

and sell it. We didn't really have

42:36

too much about setting up a publishing

42:38

business. He was effectively a i'm a

42:40

one on one of us company like

42:43

this of Biscay which came up with

42:45

you reach her and of course. Actually,

42:48

If you think about it may also

42:50

the defining part of your regular to

42:52

defining pets. One was that it was

42:54

of a prize of twenty five thousand

42:56

pounds for the first person who found

42:58

a secret code which. To. Be honest

43:00

with loosely based upon Masquerade Where The Kit

43:03

Williams I think it would have. Time.

43:08

To find that he was a golden hair

43:10

that he buried somewhere in English Feals you

43:13

know and you can buy should work out

43:15

because it's you could, you could pick it

43:17

up. Ah but so that was hipsters. it

43:19

goes with them. allegations of that's and of

43:21

course we would choose to be in Livingston

43:24

by the federal David Bishop that is a

43:26

mutual friend was a and week thought well

43:28

if we get him. To to

43:30

to sort of the author the script

43:32

then you've got that famous author up.

43:35

Peace the it'll be a good fun

43:37

adventure game. Oh could you might win

43:39

a prize and he think about it

43:41

given the we have to advertising guys

43:43

either with marketing guys it's tell it

43:46

makes sense of we came at it

43:48

from a marketing angle right? This is

43:50

why we have the surprise us that

43:52

was off idea was really bored of

43:54

marketing. Ah play than

43:56

than us or pure video game

43:59

play. And that's where

44:01

it came up. So

44:03

actually, we didn't think about, oh, we've

44:06

got to build this company, it's going

44:08

to have five games a year coming

44:10

out. No, we didn't. We just thought,

44:12

let's do this one thing, see how it goes. Well,

44:14

I know that game really put, you know, Denmark initially on

44:17

the map. I mean, obviously every kid in, you know, every

44:19

bedroom around the country wants to win 25,000 pounds. And

44:23

I imagine they spent a lot of time to... I think

44:25

the way it worked is they completed the game and then there was a

44:27

phone number at the end and then if

44:29

they could call that for a chance to win. So, I mean,

44:31

how did you go about marketing that then? Well,

44:34

first of all, just to be

44:36

precise, I mean,

44:39

we were pretty diligent about, you know,

44:41

our plan. We didn't have a whole

44:43

business plan. And we did follow

44:46

it exactly. We thought it all through, we followed it.

44:49

The phone number was sort of buried.

44:51

Nobody was supposed to know, you

44:54

know, programmers who made the

44:56

game buried it at some

44:59

part of the game it was actually eventually found. That

45:02

was buried in there. And the number

45:05

was wired to a specific

45:07

line, which was then

45:10

wired into an answer machine at

45:12

the house of our lawyer. Okay.

45:16

So, whoever at whatever time of

45:18

day or night managed to find

45:20

this thing, the idea was that they ring the number, they

45:23

say, hello, well done, you found the game, please leave your name

45:25

and number, we'll get back to you. And

45:27

then the lawyer would check the answer machine

45:29

every day to see if anybody had rung

45:31

it on the one dedicated line. And

45:34

then, of course, when eventually it did happen,

45:36

he was able to ring back

45:39

in and say, yes, well done, you

45:41

know, companies come and see us. So, it was

45:43

all kind of carefully thought through. When

45:46

it came to the marketing piece, we

45:49

would just take a traditional marketing

45:52

guide. So, we were advertising in the Sunday

45:54

Times. And We

45:57

were advertising in these sort of

45:59

computer magazines. So quickly though, fantasy

46:01

was really and and we did

46:03

leaflets, we did that. us and

46:05

we do. We did leave for

46:07

drops in certain areas, arm and

46:10

stuff like that. It was all

46:12

fairly sort of standard marketing stuff.

46:15

And. And in particular of course we have

46:17

a Pr agency. And they

46:19

got a small town fridge in the

46:21

Sunday Times. the Daily Mail unknowns with

46:23

yeah and it was very much in

46:25

the mid eighties to do so. thats

46:27

of zero of entrepreneurship and so on.

46:29

He was very much you're too young

46:31

guys starting a company and tutted other

46:33

exciting and sullivan computer games of us

46:36

who he was. Hard to get the

46:38

coverage in this in this is in

46:40

the nineties and that sort of didn't

46:42

put is absent rap know what else

46:44

was really doing it but he is

46:46

not be as the same which is

46:48

which changed. From the beginning of

46:50

up a lot of are planning and

46:52

always written launch it went from being

46:54

a mail order only business. The. Becoming

46:56

a retail business in the sort of

46:59

ten months. From. Start to finish

47:01

it really was extorting to everything that

47:03

we planned was based upon mail order

47:05

like get particular his the to bomb

47:07

us for the in credit card dump

47:10

of said it me on the labour

47:12

that will send you a game at

47:14

a cassette at actually we sold about

47:16

three thousand in the end of that

47:18

way up in the summer of eighty

47:20

four. Suddenly so, my

47:22

hands and Smith's. Starting.

47:26

Some people it's and soft measure soft

47:28

came up and then you're the independent

47:30

retailers. A mom and pop stores which

47:32

are popping up everywhere right selling a

47:34

little Sick Doubles and Sigma would also

47:37

selling all were more Games are in

47:39

these little stores and and of course

47:41

they would.as supplied by micro dealer which

47:43

was this little blurb at the species,

47:46

Gabi for small it's in Adam stores

47:48

to Sunday we found ourselves calif in

47:50

a coming through August September were heading

47:52

for November. More were like oh my.

47:55

God. Now. Of what he's stocky live

47:57

in the stores. were going to have to find out who

47:59

the buyers are and. we have to go visit them. Did

48:01

you initially have some reservations about the

48:04

home compute market and how it would

48:07

actually go before it exploded? And was it

48:09

kind of seen as a bit of a

48:11

risky move? And also, did anybody

48:13

actually win that prize as well? Yeah,

48:16

OK. So the first question, no,

48:18

I had absolutely no doubt that

48:21

it was going to grow and grow

48:23

and grow. And for all sorts of

48:25

reasons, it wasn't just about video games.

48:28

But actually, you could tell the people

48:30

were starting to use them as work

48:32

processes. Yes, they were

48:34

sort of doing stuff. There

48:37

were other applications that were starting to

48:39

come through. So I was never concerned

48:41

that these things wouldn't

48:43

go. I mean, when we were raising money, I

48:45

mean, I had potential investors looking at the plant

48:47

and say to me, this is a skateboard. It's

48:49

going to be over by Christmas. And

48:52

I'm like, no, no, no, no. This

48:54

is going to be massive. And it's going to grow and grow and

48:56

grow. So I had no doubt about that

48:59

at all. In terms of who won

49:01

the prize, well, it was a fellow called Matthew Woodley.

49:04

Matthew was about 15 years old. And

49:07

he had been playing the game day

49:09

and night, day and night, day and night. And

49:11

he finally found the number. And

49:15

so one of the fears that we had was that somebody

49:18

would find it too soon, right? And then we'd all be

49:20

over. The

49:22

third day, and I was giving sales. It

49:26

can't be won too quickly. But equally,

49:29

we did not want it to be

49:31

won. We did isolate the money in

49:33

an escrow account, specifically for

49:35

the purpose. Because in those days,

49:37

maybe it is now, if you

49:39

did offer a prize as an

49:42

incentive to purchase something, you

49:44

had to bring from that prize

49:46

by law. OK. So

49:49

we actually had it legally

49:52

put into an escrow account. And it could only be

49:54

used for the purpose of a prize

49:58

winner, which then. But

50:00

if today no one had ever won

50:02

that I shall know about today, but

50:04

for years if no

50:07

one claimed it, it would still have to

50:09

sit in that bank account just in case

50:11

somebody picked up an old copy and got

50:13

an old copy to write and suddenly, ten

50:15

years later, rang the number. So it was

50:17

gone anyway, the money was gone. So we

50:19

kind of wanted it to be one,

50:22

but we do want to bid one too soon. And

50:24

I think I'm going to say it must have been

50:26

at least six months or more. I

50:29

can tell you when Matthew

50:31

rang the answer machine at

50:34

our lawyer's office and

50:37

bingo, he rang us up and said, hey, we got a

50:39

winner. And Matthew is 15 years

50:41

old. By the way, 25,000 quid

50:43

in those days, you could buy a house. And

50:46

I think he put it to good use. I

50:48

think he invested it wisely. He

50:50

then, of course, used to come and hang out with

50:53

us. So he'd hang out in the office and put

50:55

me. And we

50:57

couldn't sort of shake him off really. He

51:00

went to university. I have a feeling we

51:03

may have contributed in some way

51:05

to his feeds. I was using

51:08

on the podcast, we could tell us. I think

51:10

we made some contribution to his feeds because the

51:12

idea was when he finished university, he would come

51:14

back and work for us, which he did. Which

51:16

he did. So when he left

51:18

uni, he came and

51:20

he went to the marketing department. And

51:24

he grew his career with us for

51:27

quite a few years. And

51:29

then he joined Sega and he became

51:32

head of marketing at Sega. And

51:35

I haven't spoken to him in a while, but

51:38

I have a few years ago. I

51:41

think he's gone freelance, but he's become

51:43

a very senior executive in the

51:45

video games industry. Sounds like

51:47

that 25,000 pounds was a very good investment in

51:49

Matthew then. Yeah, something he wanted to do well

51:51

after. Yeah, yeah, amazing. And obviously

51:54

for Domark, I mean, it got your press coverage

51:56

as well. And it felt, you know, looking at

51:58

kind of the game history. your

52:01

game-ography of that era, it feels like suddenly

52:03

you became a really well-known company

52:05

in the media because you won

52:07

a huge license next. You actually got to

52:10

produce a video game based on James Bond.

52:13

Well, okay, so when we

52:15

embarked on Eureka we thought it was

52:17

either going to sell a huge amount

52:20

and we've become incredibly wealthy. And a

52:22

lot of shareholders as well because we have to respond.

52:25

Or it would be a bust

52:27

and we just go back. And funny enough, white

52:29

collars, Ralph and Scott, like I mentioned before, the

52:32

ad agency that was sort of sat above our

52:34

agency, when they first heard

52:36

that we were thinking of going

52:38

on for doing this thing, we were

52:40

summoned to the very magnificent

52:44

penthouse suite at the top of

52:46

the building in Duralay, where

52:48

they had the big agency. And there

52:50

were four guys all in our money, you

52:52

know, walking frightfully cool and sitting on sofas.

52:55

And we did our

52:57

pitch and they kind of, you

52:59

know, they were going to go, yeah, yeah, yeah. And

53:01

we went back down in the lift with the finance

53:03

director. And as we're going down the lift, I think,

53:05

yeah, I can see this, I'm playing my video. And

53:08

he, John McKinney, and he goes, well,

53:11

the guys like to put £25,000 in. And

53:14

I were like, oh, well, that's

53:16

great. And it's like, oh, and the

53:18

other thing is, if it

53:21

doesn't work, and you

53:23

have to close the business, they'd

53:26

like you to come back and work for them. We're

53:29

like, oh, my God, what

53:31

sort of investor is that? Like, you lose

53:33

their money and they give you a job.

53:35

Oh, my God. I mean, real, I mean,

53:37

you know, that's real style, isn't it? And

53:40

I thought, gosh, these

53:42

guys are going. So, of

53:44

course, you know, we obviously had to

53:46

go raise all this money. We had

53:48

to put it down the black and

53:50

see whether it worked right. And what

53:52

happened was not what we were expecting. It

53:55

neither was a huge success, nor was it

53:57

a disaster. It was kind of in between.

54:00

We sort of got all our money back

54:02

plus some, right? And now

54:04

we're going, what do we do? Because there is

54:07

no, we have no other ideas. This was our

54:09

idea, but then we were going, no, wait a

54:11

minute. Oh my God, we're going to think. So

54:13

again, being marketing orientated, right? I'm sitting

54:16

down with my thinking capital and going,

54:18

well, I don't know that

54:20

much about making games. And then we, of

54:22

course, we played those games, but we didn't

54:24

read. So I'm like, oh my God, oh,

54:27

how about we make a game based

54:30

upon something. And there was a J.S.

54:33

Bond movie called The Living Daylights, which had

54:35

been mooted as coming out the following year.

54:38

It was like, I think it was Roger Ward's last one. And

54:44

so I found the agent

54:46

responsible, a guy called

54:48

Derek Caweep at Danjack, and

54:50

I went to see him. He's an older guy. And

54:54

we had a very emotional lunch. So

54:56

Mark and I took him out for lunch, and he would be in

54:58

his 60s, right? And we were like in

55:00

mid-20s. And it was bizarre,

55:02

because we're having our little lunch,

55:05

and we are, obviously, we do like a nice

55:07

bottle of wine. So we're having wine, we're probably

55:09

on our second or possibly even

55:11

third bottle with us, too. So we're

55:14

all becoming quite sort of merry. Then

55:16

he gets at this thing, and he goes, are

55:18

your fathers proud of you? And we're like,

55:21

yeah, I guess. I'm proud

55:23

that you're starting a business, and you're going, and

55:25

I'm like, yeah, I think so. And

55:27

he burst into tears. And

55:29

we're like, whoa. He said, my father, they were proud

55:31

of me. I've done so well, my father's not proud

55:33

of me. So we had the whole dump, the whole,

55:35

you know, we were like therapists

55:38

for like the rest of the lunch. But

55:40

as a result, we won

55:42

the rights to James Bond. Because

55:45

he fell in love with us. And so we

55:47

got the rights to James Bond, and we got

55:49

a team of people. And I can't remember who

55:51

it was. I'm sure they're

55:54

scattered now, but a

55:56

team of guys to do a game. But

56:02

it was a game and it did have James Bond on the front

56:04

and it didn't sell extremely well.

56:08

And of course it was the start of many licenses that

56:10

we then published. Well another huge

56:12

license was a Trivial Pursuit and

56:14

we all know there's a great

56:16

connection between board games and video

56:19

games. What was it like

56:21

getting that? Because nearly every household probably had

56:23

a copy of Trivial Pursuit. Yeah,

56:25

so at this point, okay, we've done James

56:27

Bond. I think we did a game called

56:29

Gladiator which is a homegrown game which did

56:32

okay but not great and we're starting

56:34

to run out of money. So

56:38

we went to the bank and

56:41

we said, look, we've got

56:43

this idea, Lloyd's Bank actually in

56:45

Palmael, a fellow called Neil Money,

56:47

a great name for a bank

56:49

manager, Neil Money. He

56:52

probably, Neil Oliver probably, you know, so

56:54

he's like, N-O Money. Anyway,

56:58

this guy was a great guy, absolutely fantastic

57:00

guy. We went to see him, we said, oh, we've got this idea but

57:02

we're going to need a call from the business to do it. And

57:07

he kind of, you know, for some reason he

57:09

gave us the money. So I

57:12

found Horn Abbott, the agent for

57:14

Horn Abbott, who

57:16

were the guys, there were two brothers, I think

57:18

there were two Abbots and one Horn, I think.

57:21

The three men, I guess

57:23

some of them were quite young men, had unions

57:25

in the United States. They were

57:27

penniless people, absolutely penniless.

57:30

They lived in some terrible shack. It

57:33

was near a beach or something. They

57:35

used to comb the beach and pick

57:37

up bottles and tins and take them to the

57:40

store and get 25 cents for every

57:42

bottle again in order that

57:44

they could actually buy coca-conuts.

57:46

They were dirtballed but they did love board games and

57:48

they had these board games and they would play all

57:50

day long. It was a lot of beach months really.

57:53

And then one day they said, you know, we should make

57:55

our own board games because we love board games. If

57:58

we made our own board game, maybe, maybe. we could market

58:00

it and da da da da. So one thing that they

58:03

came up with this idea, again

58:06

based on the of course questions and particular categories

58:08

and subjects and so on and the rest is

58:10

history. And they're a lawyer, they went to a

58:12

lawyer, the lawyer put in half the money to

58:14

help and kept to it and they

58:18

made 5000 copies which they sold

58:20

in their local town, just the

58:22

stores and I'm saying maybe a

58:24

few local towns. And

58:26

you know it just took off, bang. The

58:28

next thing you know they sold it I

58:30

think to Parker Brothers and they made literally

58:33

tens and tens of millions of pounds

58:35

and this again in the 80s, millions

58:37

of pounds you know meant something. Now

58:41

it's a too up too

58:43

down in baddiecy but in those days

58:45

you know it was real money. And

58:47

oh my god they made a

58:50

fortune from this thing and that was the

58:52

whole start of Google Suite. So we come

58:54

along, we go okay we can do a

58:56

computer version of this. And

58:58

interestingly, Leisure

59:01

Genius which was a brand that was

59:03

bought by Virgin Games, Leisure

59:06

Genius was Scrabble, Monopoly,

59:09

oh god something else, a few other

59:11

games and it was very much a

59:13

board game brand, okay Leisure Genius. And

59:16

they didn't pick it up because they

59:18

couldn't see how it could be made into

59:20

a computer game. But we

59:22

had a vision for this and I

59:26

failed to remember exactly why how we

59:28

ended up with Oxford Digital Enterprises but

59:31

there's a it was a little company

59:33

of game makers in Oxford. There

59:35

were students actually and David Pringle

59:37

was a boss and he put it together. He

59:39

was honestly he was actually

59:41

a nuclear physicist. I mean it sounds

59:43

incredible but he really was top top

59:46

top nuclear physicist and he was a

59:48

lecturer at the University of Oxford and

59:50

he had this kind of group of four or

59:52

five young guys who

59:55

made games for people. It was

59:57

very embryonic. We somehow came across and

59:59

we We said, well, can you

1:00:01

do it? And sure enough for money, they did

1:00:03

it. And we go every week, we get out

1:00:05

to Oxford with crates of beer, and we'd sit

1:00:07

with these guys six o'clock in the evening and

1:00:09

discuss how the game was getting on, and look

1:00:11

at it, and had a couple of ideas. We

1:00:13

really had to put our all into it because

1:00:15

we borrowed this money from the bank to do

1:00:18

it. Okay. And well,

1:00:21

age by age by age, we got there. And

1:00:24

of course, the rest is history

1:00:26

because that sold millions of copies.

1:00:29

Not least through the Book Club Associates. Yeah,

1:00:32

I mean, having sold that many units, I mean, how

1:00:34

did that change the company then? And did it change

1:00:36

the culture at all at Domeac? Well,

1:00:39

it did. It put us on the map and

1:00:41

it gave us a tonne of dough. Right. So

1:00:44

we walked into, we didn't say anything because,

1:00:46

but the very first check we got was

1:00:50

a quarter of a minute pounds. And it

1:00:52

was from the Book Club Associates and Nixon around

1:00:54

the Book Club Associates. And in those days, you

1:00:57

got Neil Payne by a check. It

1:00:59

wasn't transferred naturally. We got

1:01:01

this check and we asked him to

1:01:03

visit the bank, Neil

1:01:05

Money. And at this point,

1:01:07

by the way, Neil was starting to really bowl.

1:01:10

I think he felt that maybe he'd done something

1:01:12

really stupid that we were going to default on

1:01:14

the loan and he was going to lose his

1:01:16

job. So we

1:01:18

said we need to come and see who's very, very serious

1:01:22

just to wind him up. And he's like panicking.

1:01:24

He's like panicking at this stage, right? So we

1:01:26

march into Lloyd's bank at the Palma. And

1:01:29

you can see he's like, the colour is draining from

1:01:31

his face and he sits down and we're

1:01:33

looking very sort of like sad and sheepish. And

1:01:35

we go, oh God, Neil, you know, he's got

1:01:37

something to tell you and it's really, really, really

1:01:39

bad. And he's like, oh God, God, no. And

1:01:41

then we put out this check from BCA, we

1:01:43

put it on his desk and we go, boom,

1:01:45

no more overdraft. And there's plenty more to come.

1:01:48

And literally the guy, oh

1:01:50

God, he literally leapt back at his

1:01:52

chair. And our

1:01:54

evacuated his place full- buddies at the ICE

1:01:56

close. He was like, oh, oh my

1:01:58

goodness. It was

1:02:00

such fun, it was such a... and we got a booked,

1:02:03

a fabulous restaurant in the West End and we

1:02:05

said, gomps, out to lunch now. And we went

1:02:07

out and got a passion. And

1:02:09

it was just great fun, great fun. And what

1:02:11

a wonderful guy he was. And of course, more

1:02:13

checks came in as we went along because of

1:02:15

course, the micro

1:02:17

dealer and of course, the legislature

1:02:20

said so. The checks were pouring

1:02:22

in and it

1:02:25

was just fantastic. So we were high and high, we

1:02:27

went and we rented, we moved office from a little

1:02:29

garage which

1:02:32

was like some shitting place and we moved to

1:02:34

a much better office. So it

1:02:36

did indeed put us on the map. And then

1:02:38

of course, we carried on with more licenses. Yes,

1:02:41

speaking of huge licenses, Domark got

1:02:43

the license for Games

1:02:45

Based on Star Wars and it

1:02:48

was a huge brand at the time and

1:02:50

you started a partnership with Atari. How did

1:02:52

that partnership start then? Okay,

1:02:55

so well, now

1:02:57

if you recall, there used

1:02:59

to be a sort of a computer

1:03:01

game section at the CES consumer electronics

1:03:03

show in Vegas in January and

1:03:06

it will be in Chicago, in June.

1:03:09

And everybody used to go there but now

1:03:11

we did enough, actually we did well with

1:03:13

both of us there. So I

1:03:15

went on my own to Vegas in

1:03:17

January of probably in the East, seven and a half

1:03:19

weeks ago. And

1:03:22

I'm meeting this guy called Manlio

1:03:24

Allegra. And he's the

1:03:27

agent for all the arcade coin-op

1:03:29

companies, which in those days was

1:03:31

a very, very big deal. There

1:03:33

was Namco and Capcom, of course,

1:03:35

you had certainly

1:03:37

Atari and you had all these big kind

1:03:39

of brands and they had arcade

1:03:42

machines of these molds and other areas and

1:03:44

so on. It was quite big business. And

1:03:48

what Ocean and US Gold and Elite

1:03:50

actually, another game publisher of those

1:03:52

days, had started to do was to

1:03:55

get the licenses from these very

1:03:57

well known popular coin-ops home

1:04:00

computer versions. Okay. So

1:04:02

we're now moving into the sort of the

1:04:04

Atari, ST and Amiga era. So

1:04:07

we think we should be doing this. We've

1:04:10

done some other licenses, but we thought, gosh,

1:04:12

we ought to try and get into this

1:04:15

area. So I fixed the meeting with Manu.

1:04:18

Manu represented all these dudes. And

1:04:21

he sat in my really grim

1:04:23

bedroom in the hotel

1:04:25

and he had this list of coin-up

1:04:28

games. for

1:04:30

like a AAA game, we're talking $250,000.

1:04:34

So if it's like an old AA game,

1:04:36

it's going to be a hundred thousand dollars.

1:04:39

And that's how we grade things. So you've got to

1:04:41

get in the game. You've got to be here. You've

1:04:43

got to pay for the money. I took it. We

1:04:45

didn't actually have the money to put down the risk.

1:04:49

I said, oh, I can't do that. I can't do that. He

1:04:52

was like, hey, D, come on. You've

1:04:54

got to be in the arm. I said, what

1:04:56

have you got? He goes to this

1:04:59

list and eventually he comes down

1:05:01

and he goes there. The Star Wars. I'm like, oh,

1:05:03

Star Wars. There you go. What do you mean

1:05:05

Star Wars? Spar Wars. I mean, come on, it's 10

1:05:07

years old. Nobody does that anymore. I'm like, no, no,

1:05:09

no, no, no, no. Madly, Madly. Atari,

1:05:12

Star Wars coin-up game. I've played it many

1:05:14

times. You sit this thing and you go

1:05:16

to the spectrographic, you know, kind of shoot

1:05:18

the TIE fighters. And then you go into

1:05:20

down the hole and shoot you. The brilliant

1:05:22

little spectrographic game, Greyfire, I

1:05:24

said, and I deal for her computer. I'm like,

1:05:27

I want that. He's like, are you killing me? You're killing

1:05:29

me. Damn it, it's not going to

1:05:31

work. I'm like, how much, how much? He goes, oh my

1:05:34

god. All right, 25,

1:05:36

I said, done. And

1:05:38

I said, I'll take the other two. And I'm trying to make it in Jedi

1:05:40

as well. Anyway, he said,

1:05:42

fine, fine, fine. Oh my god, he knows it's going

1:05:44

to be a disaster. So I get the rights and

1:05:47

we blaze it across CTW, computer trade,

1:05:49

we think those days, the

1:05:51

games magazine, that we've got the

1:05:54

rights to Star Wars. And I get a call from Rod Cousins.

1:05:57

And Rod Cousins, who, if anybody doesn't know

1:05:59

who's listening, a public day. Rod

1:06:01

Cousins famously was head of Activision

1:06:03

Europe back in the 80s and

1:06:05

then a claim then

1:06:08

actually he was a code masters, sole

1:06:11

code masters and it was the Jagex for

1:06:13

a while and he's now you

1:06:15

know take you put his feet up a little

1:06:18

bit but he'd been immensely successful games

1:06:20

guru in our industry and we had him on the

1:06:22

podcast a couple of years ago lovely guy he's

1:06:24

a lovely guy full of great stories by the

1:06:26

way, guru from great stories, bad time

1:06:28

you had him on again anyway so

1:06:31

Rod rings me up and he

1:06:33

goes, oh Dominic, yeah Rod, yeah

1:06:35

look I've got a

1:06:37

programmer who sent me some you

1:06:40

know code of souls we don't want

1:06:42

it but you know I'll put him

1:06:44

in touch. I said yes Rod absolutely

1:06:46

so this guy called Jurgen Friedrich young

1:06:49

student really from Germany but obviously

1:06:52

you know absolutely

1:06:54

brilliant and he

1:06:56

came over we got him over we paid

1:06:58

his flight he came over and he showed

1:07:00

us a sort of demo or we said

1:07:02

can you do it on spectrum, Commodore, MIGA,

1:07:05

ST, PC and he was like oh

1:07:07

yes I think I can do yes I can do

1:07:09

that but I've got to be here in London and

1:07:11

we did we don't want to get

1:07:13

a flash or anything but believe it or not he

1:07:16

took a bedroom and

1:07:18

bathroom at the very top

1:07:20

of my parents house in Wimbledon. So

1:07:24

I mean he literally lived with my parents I mean

1:07:26

every day he'd come down and they'd feed him I

1:07:28

guess. He was Jurgen and for about five months I

1:07:34

mean it wasn't that long those days I

1:07:36

mean yeah things would take seven

1:07:39

years to make again but in those days it was

1:07:41

pretty quick and he banked these

1:07:43

things out and they were excellent it was

1:07:45

perfect copy of these so

1:07:48

we put it out again November I'm gonna

1:07:50

say 80 where are we 80, 36, 80, 70 and

1:07:56

it goes out and boom number

1:07:58

one number one absolutely And

1:08:00

the checks are pouring in now. Bear in mind

1:08:03

that we've our advance to Atari was

1:08:05

$25,000 and Now

1:08:09

it's November December boom the

1:08:12

first quarter Okay, we will the

1:08:14

first corner is making the final quarter of the

1:08:16

year So we totally love

1:08:19

and we've made a lot of money. I think

1:08:21

we had to pay 20% royalty to Atari

1:08:25

we cut my checks was something like

1:08:27

five hundred and seventy thousand dollars And

1:08:32

they can I think I'll give this check and

1:08:34

I get this phone call of a guy

1:08:36

called Rowdy brow light and

1:08:39

he's like he did that

1:08:41

Dominic. Yes Darnik,

1:08:44

you know who that are you? And

1:08:47

we're like well, where does this little games

1:08:49

companies they like we need to come and see

1:08:51

you Like why you doing

1:08:53

anything next week like not

1:08:56

really know that okay. All right. Well,

1:08:58

we'll see you Tuesday. Bye These

1:09:01

three Atari executives Becky de Pue

1:09:03

ready brow light and

1:09:07

Dan van Elterin see

1:09:09

my memory is still putting yeah, yeah Dan

1:09:12

van these three dudes turned up

1:09:14

at our doorstep of our little tiny You

1:09:17

know a cup of the office and they're like, what

1:09:20

did you do? And we're like, well,

1:09:22

you know how we did the anyway we got for lunch

1:09:24

We got for dinner or blood by the end of their

1:09:26

stay they're like we want you to

1:09:29

do every Atari coin up conversion

1:09:33

And that was it from then on every arcade

1:09:36

game they put out we did the home computer version

1:09:39

And it was a rich scene of creativity and

1:09:41

of course, you know So

1:09:44

you pretty sure to make your money back on the cost

1:09:46

of making them home to be the version and

1:09:49

it produced a line of product Which

1:09:52

which was which was along with other stuff that we did Fantastic,

1:09:56

so that's how we

1:09:58

got in with the tonnery Obviously,

1:10:00

you're making a lot of product by this time. I

1:10:02

know that you... Of course, originally

1:10:04

you mentioned that you're outsourcing the game programming,

1:10:06

but then you brought it in-house with another...

1:10:09

The Kremlin team, is that right? You're in-house

1:10:11

their programming team. Tell us a bit

1:10:13

about how that was set up then, and how did it change

1:10:15

your company bringing that in-house? So, one

1:10:18

of our guys, he was a

1:10:20

programmer, actually, and a producer

1:10:22

as well, a guy called John Catherner. And

1:10:25

when he was a young Irish guy, he'd come

1:10:27

over to Britain, he was born in

1:10:29

Limerick, but

1:10:31

he'd come over, he was very bright. And

1:10:35

he was doing some internal stuff, and he worked for us,

1:10:37

he was sort of a techie guy. And

1:10:40

we had dinner one night in

1:10:42

an Indian restaurant, opposite the office

1:10:45

called Samrat, in Parni,

1:10:47

in the thing. Super best Indian in London.

1:10:50

And he was complaining

1:10:52

that we would waste all

1:10:54

this money by giving it outsourcing.

1:10:57

We should have our own team, blah, blah,

1:10:59

blah. He was doing all and on and on

1:11:01

about it, OK? And I'm trying to dig into

1:11:03

my prawn biryani, which, if anybody ever

1:11:05

did London, Parni wants a really good prawn biryani, the

1:11:07

Samrat is the best to go. And

1:11:09

I said to him, wait, I said, John, go

1:11:12

and set it up. Set up a tea. And

1:11:15

he looked at me like, what? I said, yeah, set

1:11:17

up a tea. So, he went,

1:11:20

er... OK. So, that

1:11:22

was the birth of Purn and he got

1:11:24

a whole lot of programmes together,

1:11:27

an artist and everything else. And we started

1:11:29

doing a lot of the Atari game

1:11:31

conversions, effectively, in the programming.

1:11:33

And it was in, I believe, church, see? Mostly

1:11:36

because he lived somewhere

1:11:39

near there. So, he put it at

1:11:41

the office near there. And they

1:11:43

churned out stuff. And that was

1:11:46

the first, well, in-house studios.

1:11:50

Well, you ended up moving to the US in

1:11:52

1992 and set up

1:11:54

a US division of Domark. What

1:11:56

was your inspiration to move there? And what

1:11:59

memories stand out? you at that time. Okay

1:12:02

so in those days most

1:12:04

of the Americans in the 80s

1:12:06

late 80s early 90s

1:12:08

most Americans were operating in

1:12:11

America but they were starting to open

1:12:13

up their UK or European offices like

1:12:15

electronic cards and so on and

1:12:19

we up until that point had done

1:12:21

some swapsies so for example we distributed

1:12:23

Broderbund games okay every game that they

1:12:25

did we would replicate over here in

1:12:27

Europe, cars late and manuals and things

1:12:29

and then we would put it out okay and distribute

1:12:32

it and then send them a check and

1:12:34

they actually would take our games like Star Wars

1:12:36

and stuff like that they would take our PC

1:12:38

and then they would publish it over in the

1:12:41

States and then send us a check so we

1:12:43

thought well God write it on the wall and I said

1:12:46

if we don't have an office in America

1:12:48

and control our own bullets and we're going to

1:12:50

be we're going to be a disadvantage and

1:12:53

it probably had badly so I said

1:12:55

to Bob you continue to run this we

1:12:57

have a European side and of course a

1:12:59

lot of development games I

1:13:02

will go and set up in

1:13:04

the US and I took fun enough John

1:13:06

Cabana the guy who I just you know

1:13:08

who could set up our studios because

1:13:11

we were great friends or because actually I

1:13:13

needed a good techy guy and so the

1:13:15

two of us literally got our visas and

1:13:17

pewing we went out and

1:13:21

and set up our our dome up

1:13:23

sort of US office and

1:13:26

we did do distribution deals with people

1:13:28

like Spectrum Hollabite and indeed

1:13:30

Atari did our cartridges because of course

1:13:33

cartridge business is very capital

1:13:36

intensive you have to pay your

1:13:38

$10 a cartridge I mean now it's

1:13:40

it's a disc but it's physical

1:13:42

goods but in those days you know $10

1:13:45

a cartridge it's

1:13:47

three miles beforehand you're gonna pay the

1:13:49

money then Sega or Sony or Nintendo

1:13:52

would then send you the the divisional

1:13:54

Sony but Sega or Nintendo will send

1:13:56

you the the 200,000 and

1:14:01

then you sell them and then you get

1:14:03

the money back after the 90 days from

1:14:05

the retail. So the cash flow was absolutely

1:14:07

horrendous. We needed partners with

1:14:09

deep pockets to take us to market, but we

1:14:11

needed to be there to do the marketing and

1:14:14

starting to make sure that the buyers of Toys

1:14:16

R Us and Walmart knew who

1:14:18

we were. So that was the idea.

1:14:20

So it's very feasible to start with, but

1:14:22

gradually I started to hiring people and

1:14:25

in the end, gradually after three or four years,

1:14:28

the US office really was

1:14:30

running the whole show. Talking

1:14:33

about that time as well, the early 90s,

1:14:36

there was obviously a massive series of games

1:14:38

that started. Then the

1:14:40

Championship Manager games, another first one developed

1:14:42

by Intelec that Denmark published. What are

1:14:45

your memories of that project then and

1:14:47

how did that relationship start? So

1:14:50

Championship Manager came in

1:14:54

along with lots of other games into our

1:14:56

sort of test room. When

1:14:59

someone said to me, oh, we got this purple

1:15:01

manager game, I'm like, ugh, there's so many of

1:15:03

them and it's a really

1:15:05

hard market and I really

1:15:07

wasn't terribly interested. But then

1:15:10

my finance director came in and he said, like, I

1:15:12

got Jeremy Barr and he said, there's

1:15:14

this game, this Championship Manager game and literally people

1:15:17

are not leaving the office. They're

1:15:19

staying late and they're playing and they're all

1:15:21

standing around, they're playing. It's

1:15:24

got to be something there. So I said, oh,

1:15:26

God, so I went and had a look and

1:15:28

I didn't understand it at all because first of

1:15:30

all, I'm not really a football fan. I know,

1:15:32

I know, I know. There's

1:15:35

one of us who's not mad about

1:15:38

football and I didn't really get it.

1:15:40

And also, of course, it wasn't lots

1:15:42

of lovely graphics. It was just this

1:15:44

kind of text, you know, you

1:15:46

place it in your bets and then you see the

1:15:48

outcome of the game and then you win it and

1:15:50

lose. And I'm like, okay, it doesn't really look great.

1:15:54

But fine, fine. They've always said you've got to do it.

1:15:57

So we get the Collier Brothers star.

1:16:00

two brothers, they're at university and they come down.

1:16:02

And we would pay for them. We had to,

1:16:04

they were trained to get to come down. And

1:16:07

they come into my office, they're lovely guys. And

1:16:09

I'm like, two

1:16:11

students, haven't got a bean, and

1:16:14

I don't know about this game. So I'm gonna

1:16:16

have to offer the very smallest

1:16:19

upfront money for the game

1:16:22

that I've ever contemplated. 5,000

1:16:24

pounds. Well,

1:16:26

they thought it was a fortune, of course. They

1:16:28

were like, what? 5,000 pounds, you couldn't

1:16:30

believe it. So anyway, we then got

1:16:34

the finished year. So we went to

1:16:36

an agency where they specialize in ugly

1:16:38

people, like models who are ugly people.

1:16:41

And we got this ugly guy to

1:16:44

stand with a kennel tech with

1:16:46

a cigar in one hand and jabbing

1:16:48

his finger at the camera as a

1:16:51

kind of coach. Like, you don't wanna

1:16:53

have that. I mean, those days, most

1:16:55

football coaches were just nasty, ugly, pick

1:16:57

ugly kind of nasty people. Now

1:16:59

they all look like movie stars, but those

1:17:01

days, they're all little. And

1:17:05

we thought that's an amazing sort of manager

1:17:07

that we look for. So we put him

1:17:09

on the front of the box and

1:17:12

we put it out. Now we sold that at a

1:17:14

couple of thousand units. Then we got

1:17:16

a phone call from, you know, let us off, can we

1:17:18

have another 3,000 units and send

1:17:20

us off round, they wanted 5,000 units. I

1:17:23

waited, that doesn't happen. And then

1:17:25

the next week it was like 10,000 and

1:17:28

we're going, well, what's happening here?

1:17:30

And it didn't go out with

1:17:33

a big bang. It kind of erupted

1:17:35

like a volcano. And

1:17:37

now we're busy trying to make it enough for

1:17:40

the demand and it's going completely crazy. And

1:17:44

of course, again, these two lads,

1:17:46

right, their first royalty check. I mean, I

1:17:48

think it was at least, I'm

1:17:50

thinking it was 70 or 80,000 pounds for

1:17:54

their first couple of

1:17:56

months royalties. And of

1:17:59

course they came. I said, come on, come on, come down. And

1:18:03

they turned up in this brand new golf GGI. And

1:18:07

they were like, they were bouncing up and down.

1:18:09

They were so excited. And they kept bouncing. And

1:18:12

so anyway, we went on and on.

1:18:14

They made a lot of money. We made a lot

1:18:17

of money. They called it the championship match. And two

1:18:19

came out. And it had its problems, actually, with chapter

1:18:21

two, because they were very inexperienced, really. And

1:18:23

they were a lot of, I was quite ambitious, and a lot

1:18:26

of bugs, a lot of complaints. If

1:18:28

we were on Steam now, it would have

1:18:30

been a mixed negative. The thumb would be

1:18:33

definitely in the orange. And

1:18:36

it was a real problem. But we gradually,

1:18:38

gradually sort of reversed that. And then, of

1:18:40

course, the rest is history. It just became

1:18:43

the biggest selling football management game of all

1:18:45

time. And it

1:18:49

definitely helped build our reputation as a

1:18:51

publisher and added a lot of money to

1:18:53

it. So the corollaries of the story

1:18:55

is that, believe it or not,

1:18:58

Matt Woodley, the winner of

1:19:00

Eureka Prize, became

1:19:03

marketing director, whatever it was, of

1:19:05

Sega. Around

1:19:07

about, I'm going to say, 1998,

1:19:09

1999, he was in place. And

1:19:15

he was luring the Collier

1:19:17

Bronzer away. I think they're

1:19:19

coming to that point when it had been changed in

1:19:21

sports interactive. And

1:19:24

this very happy relationship. I had left, by the

1:19:26

way, at this point. So I wasn't going to

1:19:28

do with Eisels anymore, but no accident with Eisels.

1:19:31

And Matthew managed to persuade them to

1:19:33

go to Sega and Sega bought them.

1:19:35

And that's why sports interactive is now

1:19:38

a division. And the Collier Bronzer worked

1:19:40

with that division for Sega. And

1:19:42

now it's player managed. Well, it's called player manager

1:19:44

because I owned the rights

1:19:46

to championship manager because we kept the

1:19:48

name for us. They had to game

1:19:50

the code. That was their copyright. Our

1:19:53

copyright was for me. Now, for some reason, this

1:19:55

is way after I left Eisels. The

1:19:58

idiots, I hope, who have had actually looked after

1:20:00

idols, didn't really think, Gilm should be on saying,

1:20:02

look, we'll give you the name. Gilm should just

1:20:04

give us like one, 2%. You

1:20:07

know, like, make something out of it. We weren't gonna do

1:20:09

anything with it. They tried to do something with it, but

1:20:11

it's pointless. I mean, these boys, these guys,

1:20:13

they were, yeah, they were so fanatical

1:20:16

about football. I mean, even over lunches, I mean,

1:20:18

you couldn't really talk about anything else. And I

1:20:20

didn't know much about football, but if I said,

1:20:22

you know, how's your father? I'd say, well, my

1:20:24

father's really, really well because, you know, Manchester United

1:20:26

won against, okay, I'm like, you know, they

1:20:29

couldn't talk about anything else. But

1:20:32

which is, of course, why it's so

1:20:34

good is because there's a person and

1:20:36

so detailed. And the difference between

1:20:39

chat manager, people just say, what's the difference?

1:20:41

And the answer is the algorithm, because they

1:20:44

would attribute 20 different kind of, you

1:20:47

know, features like the speed, tackling,

1:20:50

dribbling, shooting, you know, whatever

1:20:52

it is, for every single player, right

1:20:54

across all the leagues, all the divisions or whatever

1:20:56

it was in those days, to

1:20:58

a very, very, very accurate degree. They literally

1:21:01

knew every single player. I mean, thousands, and

1:21:03

they would give them these attributes and put

1:21:05

them into the, so that when you build

1:21:07

your teams, or you had a team against

1:21:09

another, you know, it was

1:21:12

very accurate, you know, yeah, he does always

1:21:14

trip over his feet before he actually, you

1:21:16

know, gets to the goal. Yeah,

1:21:18

you know, that's exactly what that dude does.

1:21:20

I recognize that, because they would have accurately

1:21:23

defined that attribute to him. And that's why

1:21:25

people found it so perfect. And

1:21:28

very few other companies have

1:21:30

managed to get to that level. You

1:21:32

know, you did touch on there, the change to Eidos.

1:21:34

Now I'm interested in that story, because you know, that

1:21:36

was around 1994, I

1:21:39

read that happened, and you met

1:21:41

Charles Cornwall, who was the chairman of Eidos.

1:21:44

I'm quite interested in the background of like, who Eidos were, because

1:21:46

I heard they were like, a small company that were making video

1:21:49

compression software for like the Acorn Archimedes.

1:21:51

I mean, how did that relationship start,

1:21:53

and how did that end up becoming

1:21:55

a, basically a reverse takeover, and the

1:21:57

moment becoming Eidos? What kind of happened? Well,

1:22:01

exactly as you say, so I was

1:22:04

introduced to Charles Gore by

1:22:06

a mutual friend who was also an

1:22:08

investor in in Denmark has

1:22:10

been from the very beginning actually,

1:22:12

he was a city guy, very,

1:22:14

very powerful, successful, rich city

1:22:17

guy. And he

1:22:19

introduced me to Charles because he come across him and

1:22:21

Charles had got those chairman and bought into this little

1:22:23

aim no one is USM of those days,

1:22:25

but equivalent of a kind of

1:22:28

Google company, which had raised

1:22:30

a million pounds to do data compression

1:22:32

technology. In those days, obviously,

1:22:35

you know, your land

1:22:37

lines were taking data and it was

1:22:40

terribly slow. And the idea

1:22:42

was if you could divide packets, a little

1:22:44

easy to send packets and compress the data,

1:22:46

which would then open the other end, you

1:22:48

know, as a full thing, you could get

1:22:51

a lot more speed and a lot more

1:22:53

data done. So data compression

1:22:55

technology was really, really quite the thing. To be

1:22:57

honest now, I mean, it's a star thing, but

1:22:59

it's with fiber, you don't need it the

1:23:02

same way that people did in those days.

1:23:04

So it was the right idea. And they

1:23:07

start in a little office, trying

1:23:09

to do this data compression technology, to

1:23:11

be able to sell it to you know, and,

1:23:15

and of course, they were not actually able

1:23:17

to sell it to anybody. It was very,

1:23:19

very pregnant with hope, but

1:23:22

it wasn't actually translating into sales.

1:23:24

So small market cap not

1:23:26

very much. 600, 700

1:23:29

grand in the bank, okay, because they were hardly spending

1:23:31

the money that they raised because they're about three or

1:23:33

four. And no for hours

1:23:35

in the car park, you know, and and

1:23:38

lots of hope, but nothing actually happening. And

1:23:40

Charles bought it because what he saw was

1:23:42

a little nothing company that probably could act

1:23:45

as a shell with some cash in it

1:23:47

for something proper. So

1:23:49

when we got

1:23:51

together, he said,

1:23:54

Look, you want

1:23:56

capital, you want to grow your business, it's

1:23:59

difficult to necessarily necessarily go public out

1:24:01

of the box. But if you reverse into

1:24:04

Eidos, Noamite reverses

1:24:06

into Eidos, when you've

1:24:08

got a real business, you know, telling over,

1:24:11

yeah, millions of pounds or less of it

1:24:13

and lots of people, we'll put it into

1:24:15

this business and that will be the new

1:24:17

business that Eidos will go to.

1:24:19

And that was how it began. Clearly,

1:24:23

you know, I was not

1:24:25

that au fait with the

1:24:28

city and how you raise

1:24:30

money or float companies. So

1:24:32

it's very helpful having somebody who did

1:24:34

know how that worked and who to

1:24:37

talk to. I mean, you know, since

1:24:39

then I've only probably five, six companies

1:24:42

and I've got loads of mates in the city who

1:24:44

are fund managers and brokers and blah blah blah blah

1:24:46

blah blah. So, you know, there's no mystery now, but

1:24:49

if I had known then, what I know

1:24:51

now, I would have needed all this, but I

1:24:53

certainly did at the time and we

1:24:56

reversed in. I mean, it was actually in September, I

1:24:58

believe it was September 95 when

1:25:01

we finally consummated that

1:25:04

and became listed

1:25:06

on the

1:25:09

stock exchange. And a

1:25:11

lot of other people had bought shares when

1:25:13

it was nothing, you know, not worth anything

1:25:16

kind of company. And suddenly,

1:25:18

their shares became worth humans.

1:25:22

They were very happy. They wanted to hit them.

1:25:24

They just, I mean, they wanted to hit them.

1:25:26

You know, I mean, they were missing also my

1:25:28

shareholders. You know, my mother, I mean, my father

1:25:30

had a pocket in ground there to

1:25:32

show good faith when we were kicking off back

1:25:35

in the mid 80s. So it was exactly sort

1:25:37

of ten years later. And

1:25:39

there were people who hadn't seen since the day I

1:25:41

got to, I had two

1:25:43

Morgan Grenfell bankers over

1:25:46

a hamburger in Fulham, wrote

1:25:48

out checks for £10,000 each and had it to be

1:25:51

over the, you know, was I was squeezing the old

1:25:53

tomato sauce on my burger. I

1:25:55

didn't see them for ten years, right? And

1:25:57

then I get phone calls and they're like...

1:26:00

What in the earth did you just do? I

1:26:03

got like half a million pounds worth of

1:26:05

shares of it. What what did he do?

1:26:07

You know he said it was quite fun

1:26:09

when we went when we went public and

1:26:11

everybody was successful So it was great. I

1:26:14

think you had so many companies involved as

1:26:16

well because a big red software got involved.

1:26:18

Yeah into gold Coritines

1:26:20

US gold as well and you're

1:26:22

expanding very fast yes,

1:26:25

I was wondering what it was like when when

1:26:27

Tomb Raider hit and and You

1:26:30

saw it for the first time how crazy it went

1:26:32

then Right. So so

1:26:35

so yes, you're right. Well, we were probably so start

1:26:37

with the the big red. Yeah, so Paul rats a

1:26:40

Fantastic guy. I loved him like a brother He'd

1:26:43

done some games which we published a little guys.

1:26:45

I bought that company and The

1:26:53

Simmons flight sims and we published all the flight

1:26:55

sims that they'd ever done in Babastok

1:26:58

and julie for new terrific guys. I

1:27:00

had actually published them only a week

1:27:03

ago Wonderful guys

1:27:06

and so we bought them so we we bought

1:27:08

a couple of studios We talked

1:27:10

about it out and then

1:27:12

the following year so that now we're moving

1:27:14

the clock forward into 96

1:27:17

it's about I'm gonna say February Maybe

1:27:20

March and Charles rings me

1:27:23

up and he said if

1:27:25

it again, so he says Dominick There's

1:27:27

a company called since except a good

1:27:30

and I think we should bathe in and I'm like, oh,

1:27:32

yeah It's Jeff brands outfit right send us off and of

1:27:34

course us gold and together they call it said the gold

1:27:36

It was listed on the soccer stage. It

1:27:39

had some problems They'd have been not

1:27:41

very profitable the share price was in

1:27:43

the tank. He really wasn't worth

1:27:45

very much And I said,

1:27:47

oh that's really I said, you know,

1:27:49

I think the US gold piece is

1:27:52

the piece we want I don't think we want sell the soft. I

1:27:55

think a distribution company. It's a logistical it's

1:27:57

like, you know, you make five P on

1:27:59

every It's not our style. We

1:28:01

just don't do that. If

1:28:04

we can sell CentaSoft to the management and

1:28:07

keep the US Gold bit, then yeah, let's

1:28:09

buy US Gold. So he goes and we

1:28:11

make a bid, it's like 15 million quid

1:28:13

and we buy CentaGold. We

1:28:15

sell CentaSoft off, I think, 8

1:28:18

million pounds to Roger Sudelles and

1:28:20

his team, and then the

1:28:22

other piece of it, which is the US

1:28:24

Gold publishing piece of it, we take over.

1:28:27

They have the Olympic license and they work it on

1:28:29

and they fill a thing. And

1:28:32

then we now go to E3

1:28:34

territory because the CES shows are now think of the

1:28:36

past, it's all about E3,

1:28:38

the industry is big enough to host its

1:28:40

own dedicated show in

1:28:43

Los Angeles. And

1:28:45

I've got a big stand and I've got all my

1:28:47

boys and girls and stuff

1:28:50

is happening, it's very chaotic. And the

1:28:52

first day I had a whole lot

1:28:54

of material that's just come in from the UK. And

1:28:57

one of them is a video tape and

1:28:59

it's got Tomb Raider written on it. And

1:29:01

I'm like, okay. And initially I'm like, oh,

1:29:04

it sounds like a kind of Raiders of

1:29:06

the Lost Ark knock off. It's

1:29:08

like, it's like, oh yeah, this is kind

1:29:11

of cheesy. So anyway,

1:29:13

I put it on, I've got all the

1:29:15

sales people, all our sort of reps, all

1:29:17

the grungy old reps out of New York.

1:29:19

You know, seated or been there, done it.

1:29:22

I mean, they're always miserable. They're

1:29:24

both of the reps for toy companies as well.

1:29:27

If you've ever come across anybody who reps

1:29:29

for a toy company, they are literally one

1:29:31

of the most miserable creatures on Earth. I

1:29:33

mean, they just go, it's no matter why.

1:29:35

It's just they're all lucky guys that are

1:29:38

grumpy. And I put this thing on

1:29:40

and I go, okay, we've got this new game coming

1:29:42

in at the CES, it's going to be actually on

1:29:44

PC and PlayStation. It's

1:29:47

getting up, which has just come up before. And

1:29:51

Lara, she's running and a

1:29:53

ponytail is swinging behind her and she

1:29:55

dives into this underground pool. And

1:30:00

he's a tomb and I'm looking at

1:30:02

it and it's like wow, this

1:30:05

is amazing. It's like a fantastic character,

1:30:07

great animation and then she

1:30:09

turns around and she winks. She literally winks

1:30:12

at us, we're watching it and that's the

1:30:14

end of the trailer and I'm like oh

1:30:16

and these guys are clapping. They're

1:30:18

all applauding. They're like

1:30:20

wow and they never applaud. And I'm like

1:30:23

a warm glow came across my chest because

1:30:25

you're like oh my god we've got something

1:30:27

here. So I go back onto the

1:30:29

stand and I'm like right, we need to at least take that down,

1:30:32

take that down. I will post this for you

1:30:34

know two round. I want more tape, get some more tape cut

1:30:36

and we can put them into the loops

1:30:38

that go round and round and round with all the teddy screens and

1:30:40

so on. And

1:30:42

Eidos, a dome arc in fact

1:30:44

originally, but I don't know, Eidos were famous for

1:30:46

their show parties. We were always

1:30:48

shut down by the fire marshals. There

1:30:50

was always drama and

1:30:53

intoxication involved in our

1:30:55

parties and we were famous for

1:30:57

it and everybody used to try and get in and it was

1:30:59

always a nightmare and a great fun. And

1:31:02

that night we had exactly that. We had

1:31:04

a huge party and a big nightclub we'd

1:31:06

taken over and a fantastic country rock and

1:31:08

roll band won it. I

1:31:10

could see the drummer now. He's one of those dudes who

1:31:12

can bang the drumsticks on the thing and they go just

1:31:14

a little out of the air and come down and he

1:31:16

catches them and then he bounces off his heel

1:31:19

and catches it and back. An incredible guy

1:31:21

and everybody was coming up to me going

1:31:24

damn, tomb raider. I

1:31:26

saw that in your stand. It's going to be

1:31:28

huge. It's going to be huge. And literally everybody was talking about

1:31:30

it and I knew that we had something.

1:31:33

Yeah, I mean that was just a complete game changer.

1:31:35

No pun intended and that game came out wasn't it?

1:31:37

It was just the biggest thing in the world and

1:31:40

obviously continues to do today. It's a huge franchise. A

1:31:42

couple of years after that though, in 1997, that kind

1:31:45

of marked the end of your era at the company.

1:31:47

You left in 97. I mean, what

1:31:50

kind of motivated that then and how did

1:31:52

it feel leaving behind the company that you'd

1:31:54

co-founded a decade before? Yeah,

1:31:56

you know, I think. I

1:32:00

think there were a few

1:32:03

things that combined really. I

1:32:05

think the first one was to be

1:32:07

frank, the boat had come in, you

1:32:09

know? And I

1:32:12

was quite tired. I

1:32:16

mean, I was only about 35 or 36, but

1:32:18

it'd been a long 10 years and

1:32:21

it'd been so many ups and downs,

1:32:24

so many moments we got close to bank property

1:32:26

and then suddenly, you know, rabbit was pulled out

1:32:28

the hat. It was quite weary. The

1:32:30

fact that we'd managed to lumber through, we were always

1:32:32

the last man standing, but bear in mind, I mean,

1:32:35

all the other great names from

1:32:37

that era are pretty much gone.

1:32:39

I mean, you know, Domart Stroghaidos,

1:32:41

but Ivalier Hubert was still a

1:32:44

name, in a way, I

1:32:46

mean, now owned by Embrace of it, yeah. And

1:32:49

I felt that. The other thing was

1:32:51

that I think Charles

1:32:53

and his thoughts and ideas, and

1:32:55

some people that he brought in on the board had

1:32:58

a different set of ambitions to

1:33:00

me. I wanted just to focus on building a

1:33:02

games company. And Charles

1:33:04

was like buying record labels and

1:33:06

he was buying, you know, CGI

1:33:08

studios in Soho. He

1:33:11

was sort of, he was

1:33:13

like a sailor who'd just come into

1:33:15

port, you know? He was sort of

1:33:17

buying everything and I felt that we

1:33:19

were gonna end up probably falling out.

1:33:22

And it was no point and I just didn't feel like

1:33:24

a fight really over it. Also, my

1:33:26

wife wanted to bring her children, two little

1:33:29

children, they'd grown up in California, they were

1:33:31

entirely American, they spoke American. And

1:33:34

we had to kind of make a decision. They're

1:33:36

sort of seven, eight years old now and I wanted to

1:33:38

get a ticket back to bringing them up into England, you

1:33:41

know, rather than leaving them out. So she

1:33:43

wanted to go back to England, we'd done five years

1:33:45

and both had come in, and and and and and and I

1:33:48

just thought, you know, leave them laughing, I'm

1:33:50

done here and I'll take some time

1:33:52

off and then, you know, see what

1:33:54

happens. So that's really when I left

1:33:56

in 97 and. And

1:34:00

we ended up in France, and

1:34:03

then we went, obviously, back to England,

1:34:05

and we sort of reached around. So

1:34:08

it was the end of an era, really. And

1:34:10

I just went on quite

1:34:13

strongly, obviously mostly because

1:34:16

of Tomb Raider. There

1:34:19

are some crazy stories that

1:34:21

came out, and I was obviously, because my

1:34:23

guys, my old friends like

1:34:25

my Mugavi and of course Cavader and

1:34:27

others who were still there, you know,

1:34:29

I'd meet with them for dinner

1:34:32

and a song in London. I get all the

1:34:34

stories of craziness. There was a whole book to

1:34:36

be written about Eidos in those years. But

1:34:39

eventually, of course, it fell into the arms of

1:34:41

Square Enix, who

1:34:43

bought it. And

1:34:45

then that was it. That was the end of

1:34:48

the public-held company that I thank you. I

1:34:50

found it. But it

1:34:52

still exists today in some form, and does the same

1:34:54

thing now in it, and some

1:34:56

of these great franchises. But

1:34:59

no, I don't regret leaving. Sometimes

1:35:03

you sort of finish your business and you

1:35:05

go, that's it, on to the next. And

1:35:08

obviously, your career has continued very strong in the

1:35:10

gaming industry. I mean, you're still involved today, aren't

1:35:12

you? What do you do now?

1:35:16

So I sort of, I became chairman of

1:35:18

Kujhu, which was a spin-out of Simis because I

1:35:20

think Ian, Babish Doctor, Joel for News, felt the

1:35:22

same way as I did. And as soon as

1:35:24

they could get out, they did. And

1:35:27

I became chairman of that in the early 2000s. And

1:35:30

I floated it, I think, about 2004, maybe 2005. And

1:35:36

I had other non-executive direct ships. And

1:35:40

I had various projects. So

1:35:42

I did some property, all the sort of

1:35:45

things that you sort of muck about. And

1:35:49

then we were approached by a

1:35:51

company called Katalas. It's a German company,

1:35:53

listed in the stage in Frankfurt, run

1:35:56

by a couple of German guys. And they wanted

1:35:58

to buy Kujhu out of the line. stock

1:36:00

exchange for cash. It

1:36:02

was a good offer, we said, all right. So the

1:36:04

approach being said,

1:36:07

look, would you like to come on the board of guitar? This

1:36:09

is not exactly if I'm like,

1:36:11

yeah, okay. So I was chairman of Kuju under the

1:36:13

guitar, I had all the board of guitars. And

1:36:16

the other thing it had, it was supposed to be a buy

1:36:18

and build. It was supposed to be like a key word. So

1:36:21

I mean, that was the idea that the Germans had in their

1:36:23

buy and build services to the kit. But actually the other thing

1:36:25

they had was Testronic, which was a film with television testing company

1:36:27

in Hollywood, but nothing to do with games. And

1:36:30

then this game making company, which was like, it

1:36:32

was a work for studio, 350 people, blah,

1:36:35

blah, blah, but doing games for Ubisoft,

1:36:37

Activision, so on. And so these

1:36:40

two things were going together. Then

1:36:42

we had a very

1:36:45

disastrous time. I will

1:36:48

delicately say that it had something to

1:36:50

do with management, but

1:36:53

without necessarily pointing the figure in

1:36:55

exactly the direction. But

1:36:57

nevertheless, management had, they

1:36:59

asked me to take over in 2012, well,

1:37:01

11, 12. And I

1:37:08

hadn't actually run anything since, but

1:37:10

I said to them, like, oh,

1:37:12

wait, I'm a chief executive of

1:37:14

another company, what time do they start work? Is it still

1:37:16

9.30? Great, okay,

1:37:19

fine. So I went to see my

1:37:21

wife, she was just lounging by the

1:37:23

pool in France. And I said, I

1:37:26

think I might be going back to work, you know,

1:37:28

like proper work. And she's like, oh, well, good, you

1:37:31

know, yeah, make

1:37:33

some proper money. So

1:37:36

that's it. I took it over. And it was basically we

1:37:38

owed 12 million

1:37:40

euros to KBC Bank in

1:37:43

Brussels, which somebody had borrowed.

1:37:46

And, and, you know,

1:37:48

we were in deep, deep, I

1:37:51

can't say the word, but we were in

1:37:53

it deep. Yeah, doo doo. That's it. That's

1:37:55

the one. And and you

1:37:57

know, it was always so mission

1:37:59

impossible. Okay, because the bank pulled the money

1:38:01

back the bank on the door the bad pulls

1:38:03

down. Mm-hmm And I had these two think could

1:38:05

you had suffer from lack

1:38:08

of games? You know to make because

1:38:10

all is dead and testronic was in

1:38:12

the you know film division testing,

1:38:15

you know with DVDs and stuff

1:38:17

it was kind of small business and I had

1:38:20

no time at all, but I had to figure out what to

1:38:22

do and the way I dealt with it was like I I

1:38:27

Turned testronic into a games

1:38:29

testing company, right? So we

1:38:31

went to Poland throughout a couple of

1:38:33

floors peg borrowed But

1:38:36

some desks and tables and stuff and we

1:38:38

started testing games the first plant the riot

1:38:40

and Rovio and people like that So

1:38:43

suddenly, you know money started to come

1:38:45

in on that side of the vision

1:38:47

with with kuju I got Gary Bracey

1:38:49

who's wonderful wonderful guy

1:38:51

and a great sales guy and

1:38:53

he was Loose end

1:38:55

of the time that I rang thank goodness and

1:38:58

I said, what are you doing? Yeah, he said well not very much

1:39:00