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0:32

Let's create. President

0:36

Biden and

0:42

Donald Trump. And

0:53

in short, it was not

0:55

a great night for Biden. I should be

0:58

dealing with everything we

1:00

have to do with,

1:03

look, if we

1:06

finally beat Medicare. Thank you, President

1:08

Biden. President Trump. This

1:11

has triggered a big freak-out among top levels

1:13

of the Democratic Party, which

1:15

for months has been dismissing

1:18

concerns about Biden's age and mental

1:20

fitness. Often

1:22

getting angry at reporters like me

1:24

for even asking the questions, despite

1:27

the fact that polling and our own

1:29

reporting have clearly shown that

1:32

concerns about Biden's age, physical

1:34

stamina, and mental acuity are

1:36

huge factors in this election. How

1:39

are you feeling about President Biden? He's getting old, and that

1:42

makes me sad because he's really a

1:44

good candidate. He's too old. I

1:46

feel like he's a little out of touch, but I think he's

1:48

too old. At some point,

1:50

the age thing has to come into

1:52

play. I like Joe Biden. He's too

1:54

old. I don't think we should have

1:57

deep senior citizens in office making decisions

1:59

for the country. His level

2:01

of competence worries me with

2:03

his age and mental clarity. I

2:06

won't vote for Joe Biden in November

2:08

because he sneezes away from the high

2:10

seas. I was not expecting Biden

2:12

to run again, actually. I was thinking that

2:14

logically he's old, he was going to step

2:16

down. His age does trouble me

2:19

and he seems to be frail. I think

2:21

he has done. And

2:23

so for the many people who watched the debate or

2:26

who woke up on Friday morning and saw the clips

2:28

and thought, how is this happening?

2:32

Or how did the Democrats let this happen?

2:35

Here's how. From

2:38

the New York Times, I'm Estet Herndon. And

2:41

this is a special edition of The Run-Up. He's

2:54

an excellent president. He

2:56

is very good at presidenting and

2:59

his policies have worked. We've seen them,

3:02

we feel them in our community. And so you

3:04

say, if it ain't broke,

3:07

why go with something unknown when this guy is such

3:09

a good president? And, you know, we like

3:12

Uncle Joe. That's Leah

3:14

Daltrey, a longtime DNC member

3:16

and party official. We

3:19

talked to her in February of last

3:21

year at the DNC winter meeting in

3:23

Philadelphia. This was not

3:25

long after the midterm elections when Democrats

3:27

were riding high. And

3:29

after request to President Biden in his campaign,

3:32

party leaders were set to change the state

3:34

order of the Democratic primary so

3:37

that South Carolina could vote ahead of

3:39

Iowa and New Hampshire. The

3:41

stated reason was a desire to

3:44

support black voters and increase representation.

3:47

But since South Carolina has long been

3:49

Biden's second political home, the

3:51

decision also seemed designed with an eye to 2024

3:55

to scare off any potential Biden

3:58

primary challengers his

4:00

path to the nomination just a little bit

4:02

easier. Acquired coordination of

4:04

sorts. At the same time, Iowa, New

4:06

Hampshire, states Joe Biden, to Biden, South Carolina is

4:08

a state he did well in. Couldn't

4:11

this also be read as a president rewarding

4:14

a state or prioritizing a state that

4:16

serves his political interests? And?

4:22

OK, I don't have a problem with that. He's the president.

4:24

He's the head of the party. So he

4:26

gets to make the decisions that are best for the

4:28

party. Whether his personal

4:30

interests played a role in

4:32

line with our objectives, which is

4:34

to shake up this system to

4:37

ensure that the base of your

4:39

party who shows up every single

4:41

cycle for you have an early

4:43

say. That's interesting because sometimes I've

4:45

been asking folks that question. They've been asking

4:47

like politics is just not evolved to this. We're

4:49

a political party. This is just about the

4:51

representation. It

4:54

was just about. And so I appreciate you

4:56

saying that because I feel like it has

4:58

to be political. I mean, for my this

5:00

is the Democratic Party. We are political. Every

5:02

decision we make is political. So

5:05

I think to say that it's not

5:07

is kind of disingenuous. Yeah. Yeah. While

5:11

we were there, we also spoke with the chair

5:13

of the DNC, Jamie Harrison,

5:16

and asked repeatedly, do

5:18

party leaders have any qualms about

5:20

clearing the path for someone who will be 86

5:23

years old at the end of his second

5:25

term? Poll after poll says the

5:27

majority of Americans do not want Biden to run

5:30

for reelection and includes the majority of Democrats. How

5:32

did the actions with the DNC square with that

5:34

reality? Listen, a poll is a poll. But what

5:36

we do know, concrete, is that Joe Biden has

5:38

delivered for the American people with a very slim

5:40

majority in both the House and the Senate. So

5:43

in the end of the day, I hope folks

5:45

understand, don't bet against Joe Biden. I understand that.

5:47

I guess it's not a question about his accomplishments,

5:49

not a question about the midterms. But that's what

5:51

you run on. No, no, no. But it's a

5:54

question about do you want that person to be

5:56

the person going forward? Joe Biden would be 82

5:58

at the time of 2020. It

6:00

is very reasonable. And we have talked to very

6:02

little voters who like the last four years, but

6:04

still have questions about the next four years. My

6:06

question is about the next four years. Instead,

6:09

ultimately, people vote for somebody who

6:11

can deliver for them. This

6:14

man has been delivering for the American

6:16

people in a way that no president

6:18

has in recent history. And

6:20

so he has the record. He

6:22

intends to run for reelection. We at

6:24

the DNC are going to make sure that Joe Biden stays

6:26

in the White House for another four years. There

6:29

is no inkling that he will

6:31

not be the nominee of our party. I understand

6:33

that. He deserves that. There's

6:36

a reason we were asking these questions in early 2023, because

6:38

it seemed clear at the

6:41

time that the party was

6:43

going to effectively shut down a truly

6:45

open primary process before voters

6:48

had really started paying attention. And

6:51

the only person I could find would speak

6:53

openly about their concerns with what the party

6:55

was doing. Was

6:57

Biden's former primary challenger,

6:59

Julian Castro, who

7:01

famously fell from grace in the Democratic Party

7:04

after going at Biden's age and mental

7:07

acuity? I know the facts

7:09

of what is on Biden versus Trump.

7:11

And I know that you are a

7:14

supportive Democrat. I'm asking whether you think

7:16

it's right that the party has kind

7:18

of coalesced around Biden so quickly. That's

7:21

kind of shut off the doors

7:23

to other challengers or really has

7:25

made that decision so explicitly. That's

7:27

what I'm really asking. Well, I mean,

7:29

I can't blame the Biden

7:32

team for other people not jumping

7:34

into the race. I

7:37

certainly don't hold that against them. I mean,

7:39

he definitely has a track record and has

7:41

done a lot of positive things. I mean,

7:43

there's a lot to be proud of there

7:45

for Democrats. However, what

7:48

I do think the DNC

7:51

should consider is probably think

7:53

about opening up the primary

7:56

to some debates. I

7:58

think that that would probably. And

14:00

that's Joe Biden. So I think he

14:02

is running in part because he's succeeded

14:04

in defeating Donald Trump. And I think he's our

14:06

best option to feed Donald Trump in 2024, protect

14:09

our democracy. I also think he's done

14:11

a good job as president. He

14:13

ran on a very aggressive agenda for president

14:15

to have the country recover from

14:18

the pandemic, to address four crises.

14:20

He saw a crisis of

14:22

the economy in the wake of the pandemic,

14:24

a crisis of climate change, crisis

14:27

of racism. And obviously then the

14:29

health care crisis coming out of the pandemic. And so we

14:31

set to work on day one to try to address all

14:34

four crises. And I feel like we made

14:36

good progress on all four of them. There's a big unfinished

14:38

agenda and he's running to finish that agenda. I

14:40

think he has a track record that merits

14:43

reelection and an agenda that will drive a

14:45

second term and the proven track

14:47

record of taking on and defeating Donald Trump. You

14:50

know, I want to dig deeper there and partly

14:52

go back to 2020 to do that, because you

14:54

mentioned the first one about he's the person to

14:56

beat Donald Trump and he has the proven track

14:58

record there. I remember President Biden's age

15:01

kind of being an open discussion back in 2020. Even

15:04

some folks thinking he should take a pledge to

15:06

serve only one term. Can you take me inside

15:08

the campaign at the time? You were a senior

15:10

advisor. Was there any discussion of his advanced age

15:13

at that point? And how did you all go

15:15

about trying to respond to the pressure of those

15:17

concerns? Well, obviously it was an issue

15:19

in 2020. People raised it.

15:22

But you know, I think he defeated

15:24

it by campaigning, by putting his agenda

15:26

before the country. He had, I

15:28

think, a bold agenda that I think helped

15:30

reject the idea that he was too old because he was very forward

15:32

looking on issues like climate change and

15:35

race and other issues like that. And

15:37

I think that that agenda and his energy

15:39

in the campaign, his success in

15:42

debating Donald Trump in the fall, I think

15:44

all overcame those objections. Age

15:46

was an issue in 2020. It's an issue in

15:48

2024, but it's an issue. And there are other

15:50

issues too. I think the sum of

15:53

the issues favored Biden in 2020. I think they will again

15:55

in 2024. I

15:57

also though remember at the time during the.

18:00

and I'm confident he's reelected to serve all four

18:02

years. I guess there's not really a conflict between

18:04

the results we see in the top, in the

18:07

large portions of the Democratic Party and even the

18:09

polling numbers we see, right? Like the polling tells

18:11

us that Biden has a unique problem that does

18:13

not translate to the rest of the party. And

18:16

a lot of the evidence says that the party,

18:18

when it runs candidates that are not respectfully 81,

18:20

that they do fine. And

18:23

so I guess I'm saying, is there

18:25

anything that Democrats or the Biden

18:27

campaign is doing about

18:29

a question that does seem unique

18:31

to this candidate? Well,

18:33

I think that the president knows that age is

18:35

an issue in the campaign. He said that, he's acknowledged

18:38

that. I think you're going to see the

18:40

president on the stump when we get into the campaign season. People

18:42

will be able to assess the president and how he's doing. And

18:45

I think that he'll be a vigorous

18:47

campaigner on his own behalf. But

18:49

I think we have to make the argument that

18:51

his age allows him to have more wisdom and

18:53

perspective as president at a time of a complex

18:55

and a dangerous world that Joe Biden's the

18:58

person you want dealing with this mess we

19:00

have in Europe with Putin invading Ukraine. And

19:03

you want Joe Biden solving these hard problems because he's

19:05

got the experience to do that. And

19:07

certainly if the choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump,

19:09

I think Biden's a better choice. You

19:11

know, I have a last couple of questions. I really

19:13

appreciate you kind of being a proxy for us and

19:16

taking this time. You know, I hear what you're saying

19:18

and it reminds me that, you know, Biden's said

19:20

in The New Yorker this week that he's running

19:22

because he's the best suited person to beat Donald

19:25

Trump. But as we're talking here, I've realized, you

19:27

know, two things have changed since 2021. He

19:29

is older and that concern has loomed

19:32

bigger in the American electorate kind of

19:34

mind. And second, you know, the

19:36

original 2020 campaign

19:38

did have that sense of a bridge to

19:40

it. The request to ask people to pull

19:42

that sign of emergency lever. And both of

19:44

those things are different. Does any part of

19:47

you worry that the conditions of this election

19:49

are so different than the one four years

19:51

ago that the president's logic of why he's

19:53

best suited no longer applies? No,

19:56

I think that you seem stuck on this idea

19:58

that he promised a single term between. 2020, which

20:00

he explicitly did not. I guess that's fine. And

20:02

I think that he didn't just narrowly

20:05

get across the line in 2020. He won

20:07

with the largest vote for any candidate for president in the

20:09

history of the country, and

20:11

won overwhelmingly in the primaries against one

20:13

of the largest, most talented fields anyone's

20:15

ever faced, and, you

20:17

know, defeating two dozen candidates in the

20:20

nomination battle for president, including

20:22

a dramatic victory on Super Tuesday in 2020. So

20:25

I think that, you know, his

20:27

victory in 2020 wasn't some kind of just like, you

20:30

know, reluctant act of the American people. It

20:32

showed record levels of vote in

20:35

the general. And I

20:37

think what's changed since then is I'll admit he

20:40

is older, but he also is even more experienced.

20:42

He has delivered results. And

20:45

he also has an agenda for 2024. So

20:48

yes, 2024 is obviously a different election than 2020. It's

20:50

four years later, different issues, but

20:52

the candidates are going to be the same. And I think the outcome

20:55

will be the same. I guess I'm

20:57

not really stuck on the words that he says.

20:59

I'm saying that the words that he said are

21:01

indicative of a larger feeling that we hear all

21:03

the time, which is that an American public did

21:05

not expect Joe Biden to be running for two

21:07

terms. And we hear this from Democrats, independents, like

21:09

across the aisle. I guess I'm saying if you

21:11

don't think that that was a perception of the

21:13

2020 campaign gave to people,

21:16

why do you think it's such a surprise that the

21:18

president's running for reelection? I don't

21:20

know why it's a surprise that he's running for reelection. He

21:23

never suggested otherwise. And

21:26

I think that ultimately the people will speak

21:28

at the polls. And I think

21:30

when they speak at the polls and they have the choice between

21:32

Joe Biden and Donald Trump, they will choose Joe Biden and he

21:35

will be our president again. Is

21:37

saying, okay, I guess I can move on.

21:39

I can move on. You've answered

21:42

the question and I totally understand it. Could anything

21:44

happen this year that would change kind of where

21:46

you are and say, you know, maybe Joe Biden

21:48

isn't best suited to be the Democratic nominee in

21:50

November? Something

21:52

that I can imagine. No. Okay.

21:55

You know, recently my colleague Ezra Klein made a

21:57

kind of explicit case saying that the people Biden

21:59

listens to. Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, he names some

22:01

other folks, including you, need to get him to

22:03

see that Biden might not be best positioned. I

22:06

wanted you to respond to that sense of argument

22:08

that has certainly been in the air. And I

22:10

guess I actually had a broader question, which is

22:12

like, is that even the thing that's

22:15

appropriate or people even do in your

22:17

position or is it just Joe Biden's

22:19

decision? Well, I think

22:21

ultimately it is his decision and the decision of

22:24

the Democratic primary voters who are voting for him

22:26

in overwhelming numbers to be our nominee. So

22:28

I'll leave it at that. Look, if I

22:30

thought he wasn't the right candidate to be Donald

22:32

Trump, I wouldn't be for him running. But

22:35

I think he is the right candidate. And I think

22:37

that people like Ezra, who haven't really been in this

22:40

business, underestimate how difficult it is

22:42

to be Trump and have a view

22:44

that just any generic Democrat could be Trump. And

22:46

I'll say it's much more complicated than that. And

22:49

I think you need someone with the right candidate profile

22:51

and the right skills. I think that is Joe Biden.

22:53

And I think you defeated Trump once. I think he'll

22:55

do it again. I wonder the

22:57

specifics on candidate profile. What is it about Joe

22:59

Biden that makes you think he's

23:02

harder to caricature? Well, I think he

23:04

has a working class background that resonates

23:06

with voters. You know,

23:08

the man from Scranton, I think

23:10

the fact that he's had a very

23:12

pro union record as president really connects with

23:14

working people. I think that ultimately

23:16

makes it harder for Trump to make him into

23:19

something exotic. You know, he wasn't born

23:21

with a silver spoon. He didn't come

23:23

from privilege. He came from the

23:25

industrial heartland of the country. And

23:28

he's proven that he can go toe to toe with Trump

23:30

on the debate stage and hold his

23:32

own. And so I think that

23:34

to me, performance is a good indicator. And

23:36

he performed in 2020. I think he'll perform again in 2024. You

23:40

know, what both sides agree on is this

23:42

election is the stakes or at least the

23:44

size of them, right? When we go to

23:46

D events or R events, they say the

23:48

country's on the line. And for Democrats specifically,

23:50

it's about the prospect of Trump installing a

23:52

wide range of anti-democratic reforms, changing our political

23:54

system, our immigration system, our judicial system, all

23:57

of the above. And I know

23:59

that for the next six months, I'm going to

24:01

hear arguments from national Democrats in the party saying

24:03

to people who might be upset with Biden or

24:05

might prefer someone younger or might not prefer a

24:07

certain policy here or there, that they should put

24:10

those things aside because the stakes are so large.

24:12

But I do think there is some kind

24:15

of missing acknowledgement that like, isn't it also

24:17

a risky thing for the party to

24:19

do to nominate the

24:21

81 year old incumbent who a majority of Americans perceived

24:23

as too old in the first place? Like, isn't that a

24:25

big risk too? To me, the

24:27

risky thing would be when you have someone

24:29

who's beaten Trump going with an

24:31

unproven national candidate to try to defeat

24:34

someone who has run for president twice before and is

24:36

now running a third time in Donald Trump. So,

24:39

I mean, there's risks on both sides here and

24:41

every candidate has risks and

24:43

what the president de-risks is inexperience of

24:46

the national stage, inexperience to

24:48

deal with Trump. And he has

24:50

those things. And those are assets, I think, in

24:52

the race that some of these public criticisms are

24:54

undercounting or undervaluing. I hear that. I guess

24:56

my last question is, okay, we get the state of play. We

24:59

get kind of where we are, post all the age questions to

25:01

you. The Biden campaign has made a

25:03

similar argument that you have made here, that the stakes

25:05

will eventually bear them out. So is that just

25:07

going to be like a stay the

25:09

course till election day and that the day after

25:11

the election, we'll see type of

25:14

thing? Or is there something

25:16

about the evidence we have seen over sometimes

25:18

or some of the polling we have seen

25:20

or some of the critiques we have heard

25:23

that is going to require the Biden campaign to change the

25:25

strategy before then? Like what do we think might shift? Because

25:27

some of the arguments I hear from you all aren't things

25:30

that have to change. It's just going to be like a,

25:32

we'll tell you the day after and we'll be proven correct.

25:35

Well, I think what has to change about the Biden campaign is

25:37

we have to have a campaign. So, I mean,

25:39

there's going to be an election, the president will go

25:41

out, he'll campaign, people hear his argument. I think they'll

25:43

be persuaded by it. I think the more they see

25:46

him out there on the stump, the more they'll be

25:48

swaged about his age. They see him debating Donald Trump,

25:50

going toe to toe with Trump. I think again, they'll

25:52

be reassured about his age and their doubts about Trump

25:54

will be reinforced. But the thing that has

25:57

to change about the campaign is we need to have a campaign. And that's

25:59

what we need to do. And that will come. And again,

26:01

four years ago at this time, there were a lot

26:03

of doubts about Joe Biden, doubts about whether or not

26:05

he would ever become the nominee. And

26:07

he overcame those doubts. And you could have said

26:09

to me then, well, what's going to change? What's going to change is we'll

26:11

start voting and we'll see him win. And

26:13

that's what it took. So let the

26:15

campaign unfold. So

26:23

that was back in March. And

26:25

for the next four months, Klain's argument

26:28

was basically the party line. Then

26:32

Thursday night happened, sending

26:34

Democratic panic into overdrive.

26:38

Still, that panic is

26:40

mostly coming from people outside Biden's inner

26:43

circle and those close

26:45

to the president. The people who

26:47

would likely need to convince him to step down

26:49

for anything to change are

26:51

still voicing their support. That

26:55

includes surrogates by California Governor Gavin Newsom. We

26:57

have the opportunity to universally have the back

26:59

of this president who's had our back. You

27:02

don't turn your back. You go home with

27:04

the one that brought you to the dance.

27:07

100 percent all in. Former President Obama. Former

27:09

President Barack Obama just tweeted out. He said,

27:11

bad debate nights happen. Trust me, I know.

27:13

But this election is still a choice between

27:15

someone who has fought for ordinary folks his

27:17

entire life and someone who only cares about

27:20

himself, between someone who tells the truth, who

27:22

knows right from wrong and will give it

27:24

to the American people straight and someone who

27:26

lies through his teeth for his own benefit.

27:28

Last night didn't change that. And it's why

27:30

so much is at stake in November. And

27:34

other notable Democrats like

27:36

South Carolina Congressman James Clyburn

27:39

and House Democratic leader Hakeem

27:41

Jeffries. But

27:44

in what may be the biggest tell of all, Biden

27:46

addressed his own performance this Friday

27:49

at a rally in North Carolina. And

27:52

after years of dismissing questions about his

27:54

age or mental fitness, he

27:57

was suddenly singing a different tune. I

28:00

don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak

28:02

as smoothly as I used to. I

28:04

don't debate as well as I used to. But

28:07

I know what I do know. I know

28:10

how to tell the truth. I

28:17

know. I know

28:19

right for wrong. I

28:25

know how to do this job. I

28:28

know how to get things done. I

28:31

know like millions of Americans know. When

28:34

you get knocked down, you get back up.

28:40

In some ways, a notable

28:42

shift from a beleaguered candidate. And

28:44

others, a late acknowledgment

28:47

of something voters have long known.

29:05

The run-up is reported by me, Esteban

29:07

Herndon, and produced by

29:09

Elisa Gutierrez, Kaitlin O'Keefe, and Anna

29:11

Foley. It's

29:13

edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin,

29:16

with original music by Dan

29:19

Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker,

29:21

Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and

29:24

Alicia Beitoupe. It

29:26

was mixed by Sophia Landman. Special

29:29

thanks to Paula Schumann,

29:31

Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson,

29:33

David Halfinger, Maddie Masiello,

29:35

Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda,

29:37

and Elizabeth Bristow. Do

29:41

you have questions about the 2024 election? Email

29:44

us at therunupatnytimes.com.

29:46

Or better yet, record your question using the

29:48

voice memo app in your phone. That

29:51

email again is therunupatnytimes.com.

29:55

Thanks for listening, y'all. Adamus

30:01

Pompa This

30:05

podcast is supported by Americans United

30:07

for separation of church and state.

30:09

Americans United defends your freedom to

30:11

live as yourself and believe as

30:14

you choose, so long as you

30:16

don't harm others. Core freedoms like

30:18

abortion rights, marriage equality, public education,

30:20

and even democracy itself rest upon

30:22

the wall of separation between church

30:24

and state. Christian nationalists are attacking

30:26

these fundamental freedoms. Americans

30:28

United is fighting back. Freedom

30:30

without favor and equality without exception.

30:33

Learn more about AU's work at

30:35

au.org.nyt.