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0:35

I'm Ashley. I'm

0:37

Radia. And I'm

0:39

out here because of her. We're

0:41

cousins. We're cousins. Yeah. No,

0:44

we're just trying a different way to meet people. I

0:46

mean, we've been trying to do any websites and it

0:48

hasn't been working, so we thought let's give this a

0:50

try and see if we can have better luck. The

0:53

struggle is real. Do you

0:55

care about politics or issues or things like

0:57

that? Do they come up? Do

0:59

you, does it matter? You know what? I

1:02

will say if it's like super extreme,

1:04

you know what I mean? And you

1:07

can't respect as an adult

1:09

someone else's opinion. You know what

1:11

I mean? But like if you're

1:13

hardcore like one

1:16

way, I can't, you know? You're

1:19

saying does it matter that someone agrees with you or

1:21

just really matters if they disagree? You

1:24

know, I think,

1:26

and this might, I mean, whatever. I

1:29

think it's a

1:32

hardcore disagree for me. That's what you

1:34

don't want to see. Right. Exactly.

1:36

More than agreeing with everything. We can

1:39

disagree, but if you're riding hard,

1:41

like this is, you know, one

1:43

of your family members, I

1:45

can't. Is that about individual canary? We talk in

1:47

Donald Trump. It's about individual issues, like abortion

1:49

or guns. Is there some things that matter

1:51

at the top of that list? Things

1:54

that I've run into on the apps.

1:56

I don't know about this, but usually

1:59

someone will ride. for a candidate.

2:01

Right now it's Donald Trump and anything

2:03

he says is gold, right? And it's like,

2:05

come on. You know what I mean? Like nothing

2:07

anyone says is gold. Does it matter on the

2:09

opposite side? If someone thought everything Joe Biden said

2:11

was gold, would that be a problem? I

2:16

mean, I lean more towards his

2:18

social, like, values more than

2:20

the other side, but I can take

2:22

from both, you know what I mean?

2:24

But like, so rise hard, right or

2:26

left, you know? That

2:29

would be a red flag for you. Or would it

2:31

be a deal break? It's

2:33

a beige flag. Beige flag,

2:35

okay. This

2:42

past weekend, my colleague Alyssa Gutierrez and

2:44

I met Ashley and Radia at a

2:46

higher place in King of Prussia, a

2:50

suburb about 30 minutes outside of downtown Philadelphia.

2:52

Should we go in? Yeah, let's go in.

2:54

Yeah, we have a couple. When we walked

2:57

in, we were greeted by a big bunch

2:59

of pink and red heart balloons. And

3:01

a bucket of roses for five bucks apiece was

3:04

sitting on the counter. We

3:10

were here for a speed dating event.

3:12

The first crowd is around 25 people,

3:14

12 couples. The second crowd's bigger, like

3:16

20 couples. I

3:18

think if anything, you just stay for the second crowd.

3:21

Not to participate, to be clear. We're here

3:23

for work, so stay on

3:26

mission instead. I'll get distracted. But

3:29

more as a thought experiment, to

3:32

explore the idea of how the political divisions

3:34

that can seem so present on the campaign

3:36

trail or in polling are

3:39

actually playing out in people's personal lives. We

3:43

set up shop at the hotel bar. Hi,

3:45

guys. Wonderful meeting you guys. How are you guys

3:47

doing? Yeah, that's a

3:49

great question. Welcome to people

3:51

throughout the night, before their dates

3:53

and after. And here's what

3:55

we wanted to know. If

3:58

you had just a few minutes to win someone's affection. How

4:01

political would you get? Is

4:03

there anything at all to be learned about

4:05

national politics or the mood of

4:07

the country from dating? From

4:12

the New York Times and for Valentine's

4:14

Day, I'm Estet Herndon. And

4:17

this is The Run-Up. Can

4:23

you tell me your name and what brought you here? My

4:26

name is Samoya. What brought me

4:28

here is just that I need to find love. I

4:31

just want someone compatible.

4:35

Does politics matter, Annie? I

4:38

do not want it to come up. They

4:40

always say, your first date, don't

4:42

introduce your ex. Don't

4:44

talk about your ex. Don't talk about anything

4:46

of that harsh... Yeah,

4:52

we don't want that right now. I'm

4:55

very chill just to see how the person

4:57

flows with you. I

5:00

think that's what I want to do. When

5:02

does it come up then? It's going to probably

5:04

flow out maybe on the second date, on

5:06

the second and a half. I

5:11

was actually dating somebody initially. He

5:14

told me that he supported Trump. And I

5:16

just completely told him it won't

5:19

work. But then

5:21

I felt like, you know what, maybe I need

5:23

to, because I am new in this country. Maybe

5:26

I need to educate myself a little bit more. So

5:29

I feel like I should have stayed around

5:32

a little bit just to hear his perspective

5:34

and to do my history, do

5:36

my research. You know? Yeah. You're

5:39

saying... Or do you regret

5:41

cutting it off? I feel like

5:43

I'm sorry I did. Because

5:46

there's always room for learning. And

5:49

you should never really cut

5:51

somebody off. Took

6:00

a break from dating was in a long relationship and then

6:02

I didn't want to go on the apps So and

6:05

I don't really go to bar as much so I figured

6:07

I would have to look for other alternatives You know tell

6:09

me about characteristics or qualities or values that you would want

6:11

in the person you're dating Yeah,

6:15

you know it's a really good question in

6:17

terms of like geographic I don't like long

6:20

distance dating Yeah,

6:22

but in terms of values I

6:24

don't know it's funny because those are subjects you avoid

6:27

when you're first on a date with somebody But

6:30

you don't really thought you don't really talk about

6:32

that on the first day. Well, no you can't

6:34

I mean it's tough It's hard to like even

6:36

if someone agrees with you It's such an intense

6:39

subject especially in today's polarized world that even if

6:41

you're sitting with someone and they agree with you

6:44

The mood is not gonna be like a

6:46

fun talk like hey, we're talking about how

6:48

much we like Biden or how much we

6:50

like Trump It's not

6:52

gonna be a fun conversation. It's a very

6:54

tumultuous environment. We're in right now to you

6:56

If some that someone cares about politics at

6:59

all or does it or if they didn't with that

7:01

matter It

7:03

does matter to me that they care if

7:05

somebody wants to if someone if you're gonna

7:07

size somebody up based on their political views

7:09

I think that uh, you're affected

7:12

by what I call the virus of the Mainstream

7:16

political scene that's basically getting everybody riled

7:18

up and divide and divided, you know,

7:21

it wasn't like this ten years ago Yeah,

7:24

we're waiting. I didn't know it's really changed.

7:26

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's so divided. Go ahead

7:28

I think any of that changed the way

7:30

you have today No, no, I just

7:32

like I said, I avoid the subject and not because I'm

7:35

you know I don't want to lose commonality,

7:37

but it's almost like talking about a very

7:39

dark subject, you know That's a dark subject

7:42

to talk about Last

7:44

thing I asked is about like specific issues like,

7:46

you know Hot button stuff like gun rights or

7:49

abortion rights or things like that If it's not

7:51

maybe bread versus blue you ever talk about Specific

7:54

things that you that that you believe in or

7:56

you don't believe in and things like that. Yeah,

7:58

you know, I do get something I

8:01

don't like the push with the vaccine that

8:04

a lot of people got very adamant

8:06

about making sure somebody was vaccinated. Did you say that on

8:08

the date? If you have to keep that one. If they

8:10

brought it up. I would. So

8:12

when COVID was happening, they wanted to make sure you

8:14

were vaccinated. Now what I'm

8:16

noticing is since COVID is over, I'm getting people

8:19

who are saying, did you get the vaccine? And

8:22

they want to know if you did or didn't. And look, I don't

8:24

care if you got it. I'm not going to, that's not going to

8:26

change how I... You have to say...

8:28

I didn't get it. I didn't get

8:30

it. But I don't, I don't, I don't judge someone

8:33

who didn't. So when COVID

8:35

was the thing, they were asking, are

8:37

you vaccinated? Now that it's over, they

8:39

go, did you get that vaccine? I've been getting that.

8:41

Has that come up today? What's that? No,

8:43

no. I was at a singles

8:46

event a month ago. It came out

8:48

twice. Like it's like where

8:50

you go and react to you when you say that

8:52

you didn't get the vaccine. So both people who asked

8:54

me were people who didn't, who were adamant about not

8:56

talking to people who got it. You

8:58

know, maybe political beliefs aren't necessarily Biden Trump,

9:00

but that's a belief that you hold, right? That's

9:02

a belief that is important

9:04

to you. I wonder if you share that with people as

9:07

your one day. Yeah.

9:09

No, I try not to. I want to

9:11

get to know them and not the,

9:14

not the ideas that I feel, I don't want

9:16

to say or plan it in their head, but

9:18

have been, it seems like that's kind of your

9:20

biggest kind of control is that you want to

9:22

make sure you're listening first and judging people individually

9:24

first before we get to all this other stuff.

9:27

Absolutely. Yeah. All right.

9:29

I'm John. I'm

9:33

41 single for the last

9:35

five years, owning a business. And

9:37

this is a great opportunity to get out. One

9:40

question we have is specifically about division and

9:42

politics. Are there things you try to not

9:44

talk about? Yeah.

9:48

Politics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

9:52

There's no real point in talking about politics. We're

9:55

all just people. Our thoughts

9:58

aren't going to change anything. Unfortunately. though,

10:00

like unless the government was actually gonna listen to

10:02

the people, there's no sense in talking about it.

10:05

If somebody wants you to pick a side, right,

10:07

that's too much, too

10:10

demanding. Pick

10:12

a side. No, I just

10:14

want to be myself. Someone

10:17

was a strong Democrat or

10:19

a strong Republican. Both of those would be

10:21

things that you... Don't

10:23

stay away from. Yep.

10:25

I think most of people are somewhere

10:28

in the middle of a little bit of both

10:30

and everybody's

10:33

allowed to have their own opinions. That's what

10:35

makes us such a great country. Somebody that's

10:37

gonna stop you or try to change your

10:39

opinion. Like, just an opinion.

10:41

I'm not doing what the other side is

10:43

telling me to do, right? Like, just let

10:46

me be me. Time

10:48

to go in. Thank you so much. It

10:53

was funny. Our team spends so

10:55

much time in political settings, at rallies

10:57

and campaign events. Places

10:59

where people define themselves through common

11:02

political beliefs. But here,

11:04

it was entirely different. Politics

11:07

wasn't just in poor taste or

11:10

a subject to be avoided. It

11:12

was a complete turnoff. Okay, so

11:14

my name is Karen. I came here with like a

11:16

couple of girlfriends. They were like, oh, let's do this.

11:19

It's something different. It beats being online. I feel

11:21

like values are things that you would put at

11:23

the top of your kind of priority list when

11:25

you think about a partner or a match. I

11:27

definitely have one side just from past

11:29

experiences and from like my past relationships.

11:32

I know, like generosity is something that

11:34

I value. I don't want someone

11:36

who's trying to like, new talk to me. But I

11:38

also don't want someone who's like, trying

11:40

to take from the world. I want someone who's

11:42

giving back and like, who will help others like

11:44

give back and see us. I really don't want to pay

11:47

for things. So I do want them

11:49

to be generous with me too. Are there

11:52

beliefs? Are there things like that? Do

11:54

you ask about that? I'm

11:57

very anti political and not political at

11:59

all. I don't

12:01

I'm a big believer and everyone's entitled to

12:03

their own beliefs I just I'm a big

12:06

believer that they shouldn't be pressing that on

12:08

someone else So if I

12:10

don't care like if you're the two

12:13

different sides I just don't want

12:15

you to try to push that on me And I don't

12:17

want you to try to diminish me for what I believe

12:19

in or don't believe in I don't

12:21

watch the news I don't the only thing

12:23

I watch is Bravo Obviously, that's

12:25

the only news that people should be

12:27

informed on It's just kind of

12:29

that's the stance that I've taken just seen what What

12:33

the political world has done to the society

12:35

that's meant to be like? United

12:41

What's your strategy when you go into these type of things what are you

12:43

looking for well Depending on

12:45

how I feel I guess first

12:48

impressions So you want to

12:50

have a good first impression, but at the same time

12:52

you don't want to like Put

12:54

yourself out there as like a generic candidate

12:56

like oh, I'm indifferent to things so like Maybe

13:00

not being overtly direct about like your political

13:02

ideology at least at the very beginning Let's

13:06

say you don't want to come off as

13:08

someone that's only like in

13:10

a way That's like oh, you're solely like a political

13:12

activist for one side or the other you know I

13:14

don't know how to I

13:18

mean I just kind of go with the flow so If

13:21

it comes up it comes up, but I

13:24

wouldn't bring it up apropos nothing

13:27

Oh, that just makes it seem like you're an extremist

13:29

like this is all you want to talk about Does

13:32

it come up in historically as you have been out

13:34

there is it easy to avoid? I

13:37

think it's probably easy to avoid. I

13:39

don't think most people are as extreme as We

13:42

get an idea of on like social media and

13:44

stuff and you know you just

13:47

get the loudest voices Social media

13:49

I think a lot of people are

13:51

a little hesitant to bring stuff up

13:54

if they think it's gonna be a little risk guy I

13:56

guess it seems easy to avoid it seems like you're just

13:59

trying out your hammer have at least for that

14:01

initial first one, make sure you're sticking on a

14:03

more general basis. Yeah, I mean

14:05

I'm not here to make statements about my political views

14:07

or anything like that. I'm just here to meet someone.

14:12

What brought you all here today? Um,

14:15

my friend here invited me. It

14:18

was a fun experience. Yeah.

14:22

About like more serious or heavier topics.

14:24

Do you expect to be asked about

14:26

it? Absolutely not. I don't expect to

14:28

be asked about it because my questions don't really

14:31

give off. Don't ask me if I'm a liberal. You

14:33

know, I just, I feel like it's

14:35

very natural conversations. It's very awkward to, a lot

14:37

of people are getting out of their shell. This

14:39

is like their first time. I don't

14:41

think to ask about their political values or anything

14:43

like that. Because there are

14:45

things that they look for that would be bill burgers for them

14:48

politically. Do you have those type of things? I

14:50

mean, yes and no within reason. Like how crazy are

14:53

you? Like what do you, like how radical are you I

14:55

should say? Um, cause if you're

14:57

radical, then I'm like, oh, well, no, no,

14:59

no, no. I don't think about politics every

15:01

day. You know, so it really just depends.

15:03

Um, it doesn't rule my life. I

15:05

do other things. The

15:08

bad sign would be if it takes up a lot of your life,

15:10

that would be scary. Yeah, that's, I think it

15:12

was a healthy ground here when you talk about

15:14

things that, cause I don't think you live and

15:16

breathe politics, then that, it must be your job.

15:18

And if it's not your job, then you're crazy

15:20

passionate about something that doesn't go within your day

15:22

to day. And if I'm a part of your

15:24

day to day, that's where that you set that

15:26

in there. I just, it doesn't correlate with my

15:28

life. But if that's their values,

15:30

that's fine. I just, they're not for me

15:33

if they're really, really intense about it, but

15:35

I don't. Like

15:37

that. Yeah, that was kind of the

15:39

same way where it's like, obviously, if there's

15:42

something that we completely disagree on, that's a

15:44

big flag. But

15:46

about specific issues when we think about gun rights

15:48

or abortion or anything like that, is there issues

15:50

that matter just as much? Or is it just,

15:53

is it like? There's so many specific

15:55

issues, like women's rights, obviously. Yeah, I

15:57

was gonna say, can you sum it

15:59

up? like dating as a minority if

16:01

someone comes off a low-racist. And if

16:04

they know, you know, I

16:06

think equality matters just in all

16:08

instances. So, yeah, as long as someone's

16:11

aligned on that affiliation, or something like that.

16:13

If they're aligned on those big things, then

16:15

you can figure out the smaller thing. Yeah.

16:18

Well, thank you, Lulu. Thank you. Almost

16:23

every single person we talk to, said

16:26

a version of the same thing. When

16:28

it comes to politics and dating, they

16:31

weren't concerned about finding a partner with

16:33

an identical viewpoint. But

16:35

avoiding people that came off as too

16:38

rigid in their thinking, be

16:40

it right or left. In

16:42

fact, the only automatic deal breaker, at

16:45

least to this crowd, was

16:47

someone being too into politics. Can

16:50

you imagine that? Ladies

16:55

and gentlemen, we have the attention, please. We're going to

16:57

take a five-minute break. After the break,

16:59

more love in politics with

17:02

two in-house experts. Finding

17:19

the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's

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why Pandora makes it easy to explore all

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your favorites and discover new artists and genres

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can listen for free. Download Pandora on

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the Apple App Store or Google Play and start

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hearing the soundtrack to your life. Hey

17:42

there, it's Ira Glass from Miss American Life. If

17:44

you don't know our show, it's true stories that

17:46

unfold like one of movies for radio. Lots

17:48

of them funny with surprising moments and pot

17:50

twists. We've been on the radio for years.

17:53

And we teamed up with The New York Times

17:56

to bring you new episodes of Miss American Life

17:58

a full day and a half. where

18:00

you can find them anywhere else online. And

18:02

the place you can do that is the New

18:04

York Times audio app every Saturday

18:07

morning. In the app, you also find

18:09

the best of our archive, hundreds of episodes, plus

18:11

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And if you're not already a New York Times subscriber,

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that's nytimes.com/audio app.

18:46

So according to a 2022 survey from Pew, 30%

18:50

of American adults are single. And

18:53

the people at our speed dating experiment

18:55

represent just one slice of those single

18:57

people. First of

18:59

all, they were women looking to meet men

19:01

and vice versa. Second,

19:04

they were trying a very specific form of dating,

19:07

meeting strangers in real life. But

19:09

that's not how most people date. Pew

19:12

also found that almost half of people who are

19:14

trying to meet someone are looking

19:16

online. So to understand

19:18

more about how the rest of the dating

19:20

universe might think about political divisions and trying

19:23

to meet a match, I

19:25

call two colleagues with expertise in the area. Producers,

19:28

I'm gonna kick it off if you give me a thumbs

19:31

up. Great. To ask

19:33

them specifically about some of what we heard. Hey,

19:36

I'm really excited to be here. Can we just start with

19:38

some introductions? Can you tell me who you are and what

19:40

you do? I am Jess Gross.

19:43

I am an opinion writer for the New

19:45

York Times. Okay. And?

19:47

I'm Anna Martin. I'm the host of the

19:49

Modern Love Podcast from the Times. Oh, I

19:51

am so excited to have y'all both here

19:53

because we did this thing over the

19:56

weekend and me and Alyssa, our

19:58

colleague went to a speed date. event

20:00

in the suburbs of Philadelphia. First, like,

20:02

kind of personal question, have any of

20:04

y'all ever been speed dating? I have

20:06

not. Neither have I, and

20:08

I feel like I should go for reporting purposes,

20:10

so I'm jealous of y'all. I

20:12

mean, to be honest with you, it was a

20:15

lot of people who were talking about wanting to

20:17

get out of the kind of rat race of

20:19

online dating. It was a lot of people trying

20:21

to switch their lens to give people a more

20:23

good faith in person chance. And it was kind

20:25

of hopeful. Like, I do think that there is

20:28

something classic about the act

20:30

of trying to see someone in real

20:32

life. I mean, Jess, I wanted to

20:34

start with you because part of the

20:36

reason we wanted you here is you've

20:38

done some reporting about how our larger

20:40

understanding and politics fits in with dating and

20:42

relationships. It actually gave us the idea to go

20:44

to speed dating in the first place. What have

20:46

you been working on? So

20:48

I had seen a lot of commentary

20:51

late last year about how young men

20:53

were more conservative and young women were

20:55

more liberal and how that was going

20:58

to destroy marriage forever in the United

21:00

States. And I thought

21:02

that that was overblown. And I

21:04

wanted to talk to people under 30 about

21:07

how politics informed their dating life. And I put

21:09

out a little survey in my newsletter, and

21:12

I got back almost 300

21:14

responses. And I had in-depth conversations

21:16

with probably 20 people, and it

21:19

was really fascinating. Well, we're going to

21:21

talk more about those conversations. But first,

21:23

I wanted to know what do we

21:25

know more broadly about how Americans sort

21:27

themselves romantically? So the first thing

21:29

to know, I think, about politics kind

21:31

of applicable to everything we talk about

21:33

is 80

21:35

percent of people do not care that much about politics. 20

21:38

percent who we talk about a lot care

21:41

a lot about politics.

21:43

And so that being said, there

21:47

is a thing called homophily.

21:49

People like dating

21:51

and marrying people like themselves. So

21:54

that's on a number of factors. That's

21:56

on attractiveness level. That's on ambition, education.

22:00

In class. Race, religion,

22:02

all those things. The politics is

22:04

just one of those things and

22:06

it is really, really important to

22:08

some people and less important to

22:10

others. That make sense intuitively. I

22:12

guess what was in the is following

22:14

up as like. Well. How do

22:17

we define care and not care And that

22:19

like eighty twenty right likes Cause. Sixty.

22:21

Percent the country Fifty Feet Six exam

22:23

both right, likes it. Or how are

22:25

we defining how much someone's political identity

22:27

takes up in their kind of. Sam

22:30

is is that sort of a hard and

22:32

fast as innocent but I think the way

22:34

it sort of roughly defined as do you.

22:37

Keep. Up with politics everyday. Do read the

22:39

news all the time. Is it something that

22:41

you talk about frequently? Or are you someone

22:43

who tunes and a month before the election

22:46

his and been out then start said care

22:48

about voting, care about sort of the whole

22:50

thing. I would say that eighty percent. it's

22:52

just not summing up in their day to

22:54

day and and fact. for that group of

22:56

people, someone being really into politics is a

22:59

turnoff. For them were going to get their

23:01

yes I've heard over this weekend was actually

23:03

people who were saying that the most alarming

23:05

thing to them as people who are kind

23:08

of to into politics or around in the

23:10

work that you all do or modern love.

23:12

How does like politics come up when someone

23:14

is thinking about their own relationship or and

23:16

their own kind of way they're going about.

23:19

Love. I would say

23:21

that modern love approaches politics and love

23:23

from like amnesic. A much broader view?

23:26

Is it like? I see a lot

23:28

of the dynamics, the power dynamics, the

23:30

financial dynamics, the dynamics of control,

23:32

the dynamics of desire that are inherent

23:35

in a ton of modern love stories

23:37

as inherently political Dynamics on or shall

23:39

we cover? Romantic relationships with covers, similiar

23:42

relationships, friendships, a relationship with yourself and

23:44

a think that you know why

23:46

someone says pulled to do something are

23:48

pushed to do another thing. Like I

23:51

think that those decisions are political in

23:53

a sort of broader zoom out. Way.

23:57

i want to ask you both how overtly just politics

23:59

come up in dating, per the research and reporting you

24:01

were doing? And like, is there any examples that we

24:03

have of who's most likely to bring it up, when

24:06

they're most likely to bring it up, or if people

24:08

avoid it? So it really is

24:10

kind of all over the place. I

24:12

think some people who, again, it's

24:15

very important to them, they screen.

24:17

Either they're screening in

24:20

terms of context clues. So it

24:22

was really funny to hear people who do

24:24

a lot of online dating say, if

24:27

they don't put their political affiliation in

24:29

their profile, I try to look at

24:31

their pictures and if they're hunting or

24:34

fishing, they're definitely conservative. This is all

24:36

women. And I

24:38

actually love the nuances of the liberal

24:40

man posturing, because it was like, he's in

24:43

a coffee shop. Usually he's wearing

24:45

a beanie. If

24:47

he says he loves Taylor Swift, that was a

24:49

big thing that came up. That was like- As

24:52

a pro. As a

24:54

pro. It's saying, I am liberal

24:56

and a feminist, because I

24:58

am signaling to you. I

25:01

just loved it. I

25:05

can literally talk all day to people

25:07

who are dating about those sort of

25:10

non-verbal context

25:12

image. I just loved

25:14

that discussion. You're talking about sort of overt

25:16

signaling, which I don't know how overt Taylor

25:18

Swift is. I'd have to read a little bit into that one,

25:20

but being very overt about their political opinions

25:22

on their profile, but I think more

25:24

so the conversations I have with people are about sort

25:27

of the gray areas, like

25:29

the moderate or the, I come from this

25:31

area of the country, so people reading into

25:33

the backstory there. If we get to the first

25:35

date, if we move

25:37

on from the dating profile, I think we have

25:39

a lot of conversations with people

25:42

who are dating who are very surprised by

25:44

the person who shows up. Perhaps they had

25:46

something on their profile that indicated they might

25:48

lean a certain way or hold certain values.

25:50

And then when the real flesh and blood

25:52

person shows up, they're totally different. So I

25:54

think some of the more

25:56

interesting conversations I've had on our show

25:58

where people are surprised because the signaling

26:00

indicated one way and the in-person

26:03

person proved different. What

26:05

was really interesting was that the people, and again

26:08

this is not like a scientific sample, but

26:10

the people I talked to who were more

26:13

likely to be dating across political differences had

26:15

met in person. They had

26:17

not totally. That's what I was going to say

26:19

is that even in this kind of conversation, it does seem

26:21

to be clear that like the type of people who are

26:23

interested in sorting, who are interested in

26:25

homophily, how about we call it?

26:28

Homophily. Homophily. We could be both

26:30

butchering it. Like we'll go. Right. Like

26:33

if we're thinking about that politically, more specifically,

26:35

like the type of people who are in

26:37

that 20% who matter, it does seem like

26:39

online dating provides them an ability to sort

26:41

that an in-realized connection makes more

26:43

complicated because you know the nuances of real people are

26:45

just more unique, right? Totally.

26:48

Totally. Yeah. And

26:50

I think what comes up a lot in my reporting about

26:52

lots of different topics is that most people,

26:56

their beliefs do not neatly

26:58

line up with the Democratic

27:00

or Republican party platform, right?

27:03

We all have a combination

27:05

of beliefs that often don't make

27:08

sense when they're all together. And I

27:10

think that that's what makes it

27:13

interesting to really get in deep and

27:15

ask people why they came to the

27:17

decisions that they made. Yeah. And

27:19

certainly I think that's one thing that drew

27:21

us to your reporting is because that overlaps

27:23

with how we talk to people about politics

27:26

too. Like the idea that someone fits very

27:28

neatly into a Democrat box or a Republican

27:30

box or even, you know, progressive or conservative

27:32

or whatever often takes more nuanced forms. One

27:34

thing that came up as we were talking

27:36

to people over the weekend was the idea

27:38

that you can separate values from politics or

27:41

that what they were looking for in someone

27:43

in a relationship was kind of understanding who

27:45

they were. And for some people that seemed

27:47

distinct from politics, as we will put

27:49

in quotes, and for some people, those two

27:51

things couldn't be separated. I wonder if that

27:54

came up in your reporting too. It

27:56

did. It came up frequently. And

27:58

I think as in

28:00

many things Donald Trump

28:02

is specifically polarizing more

28:05

than anything else because I think

28:08

especially for the women I spoke

28:10

to supporting Donald Trump to

28:12

them signaled a baseline disrespect for women

28:14

or I often heard I also heard

28:16

a lot they felt a baseline disrespect

28:19

for immigrants if their parents were immigrants

28:21

if they came from you know if

28:23

they were first generation so that

28:26

came up a lot but there actually

28:29

was sort of a lot more

28:31

flexibility around those things because again

28:33

it was like okay we disagree

28:35

about this one thing but if

28:37

they explained to me how they

28:39

came to this belief and I

28:41

can understand that and I think

28:43

that it shows good

28:45

values then I'm okay with it. I'm

28:47

glad you brought up identity though because I

28:50

mean we were obviously at a hetero like

28:52

speed dating event and at that

28:54

like the way that people talked about

28:56

their own gender identity was the most

28:58

common form of political expression that was

29:00

coming up so when we were talking to

29:02

the women who were there there was

29:04

some idea that of course at some

29:06

point I need to know what he

29:08

thinks about women's role

29:10

in relationships or how he views

29:13

his own role in relationships whereas

29:15

the men we were talking to

29:17

were kind of universally saying

29:20

I'm not bringing this up until it

29:22

absolutely has to my goal here is

29:24

to make this apolitical for as long

29:27

as possible when you all hear that

29:29

does that surprise you? No

29:32

it doesn't surprise me I am sorry

29:34

I guess I'm a little surprised

29:37

and impressed that the women were like I

29:39

need to know this early on.

29:41

So. Yeah somewhere. True

29:43

story one time I was on a date in Boston

29:45

I'm gonna make sure every dating story I say is

29:47

at least like five six years old. Like

29:53

yeah let me make sure I was ever but one time

29:55

I was on a date this is right early in my

29:58

journalism career I was a crime reporter for the Boston Globe

30:00

and I had that day been

30:02

to a murder trial because

30:05

I was covering a teenager who had

30:07

shot another teenager. Okay so I

30:09

go on this day and

30:11

this woman asked like oh

30:13

what'd you do today and

30:15

you know I've started saying actually you know

30:18

it's really sad I covered this stuff and

30:20

blah blah blah blah blah and she goes

30:22

like well what do you think about juveniles

30:24

being charged as adults because

30:27

I was like I'm not about to share

30:29

too many like full opinions I'm still in

30:31

journalist mode like we're just giving each other

30:33

I was like oh you know it's complicated

30:36

you know I tried to give like a

30:38

very like middle of the road answer and

30:40

she goes I need to

30:42

know what you think about prison

30:44

abolition right now. Wow. And I

30:46

was like oh and she

30:48

ended up actually leaving to be honest with

30:50

you but if that would have been date

30:52

two or three I wouldn't have answered in

30:54

the same way I probably would have answered in

30:57

the more open way so I definitely feel like

30:59

the timing really matters here too. Well okay so

31:01

this is one thing I haven't mentioned yet.

31:03

One of the political scientists I spoke to

31:05

for the series that I did said there

31:07

is a real difference between dating behavior and

31:10

mating behavior right. So it's like are you

31:12

how serious are you

31:14

right now? Yeah. And if you're not

31:16

that serious in your dating it

31:18

I think you obviously have a much broader

31:21

idea and there's fewer

31:23

deal-breakers but if you are looking you're like

31:25

I want to settle down I'm trying to find my person

31:27

then I think things sort of ratchet

31:29

up and that brings me to like my other

31:32

you know very strongly

31:34

held belief after doing this reporting which

31:36

is that thirst outweighs politics for

31:38

like a lot of people. I

31:40

totally agree with that. I completely

31:42

trust that. Like if you want

31:44

if you're thirsty enough you'll put

31:47

it to the side. Absolutely.

31:49

Or you're figuring out a way to justify it

31:51

to yourself. Yeah. The other thing I want to

31:53

throw in is there are a lot of people

31:56

who find love later in life so either like

31:58

post divorce or and I feel like conversation

32:00

has centered around younger people. I don't

32:02

know the age of the people at the speed dating event, I would

32:04

assume, like 20, 30? We went to

32:06

five to seven was twenties to thirties and seven

32:08

to nine was thirties and forties. Oh,

32:11

I'm so interested in hearing about that. But, you know,

32:13

we have so many conversations with

32:15

people who are sort of this

32:17

sounds negative, but I can't think of

32:19

otherwise it like sort of calcified in their ways

32:22

of thinking or living or, you know, the way

32:24

that they approach family, the way that they approach

32:26

politics, certainly. And we have a lot of very

32:28

beautiful modern love stories and people sort of being

32:30

broken out of those ways because of a new

32:32

love or surprised by them. But I will say

32:34

it's like, I'd be so interested thinking about all

32:37

of this through the lens of dating as a

32:39

slightly older person. Well,

32:41

I can say that, like, one thing that stuck out to

32:43

me just in the people, it was the

32:46

the older set of women who

32:49

were more comfortable saying, I want

32:51

to know more quickly,

32:54

like, what's his purpose here? But I guess, like,

32:56

nobody wanted to frontally mention

32:59

politics at speed dating. And

33:02

the clearest thing that came through was

33:04

really an aversion to the kind

33:07

of explicit team waving, you know,

33:09

they did not want someone who

33:11

was a mega Democrat or a

33:13

mega Republican, weariness of strong political

33:15

opinions, no matter what, you know,

33:17

I guess I'm wondering, like, how much do

33:20

you think the idea of intense politics being

33:22

a red flag or beige

33:24

flag or turn off for people is a

33:26

widely held belief? So I actually

33:28

think it's a third thing possibly,

33:30

which is just exhaustion, like

33:32

the past, you know, eight years, let's

33:34

say have just been so rancorous

33:37

and ugly. And I

33:39

think a lot of people even who might

33:42

have very strongly held beliefs, they just don't

33:44

want that anymore. It has taken too central

33:46

a role in their lives

33:48

and their discourse and they're sick of it. What

33:51

was interesting is when we met a couple people

33:53

who did hold really strong beliefs, and they were

33:55

very aware that it could be a turn off

33:57

to people. We're going to play one clip of a

33:59

guy. talking about the importance of faith

34:01

to them and how they talk about that

34:03

in dating. So

34:06

I am a Christian and I'm definitely looking for somebody

34:08

who has the same faith. It's

34:12

tricky though, like I try not to be

34:14

so upfront about it as these kind of

34:16

things because it's a mix or it's just

34:18

trying to see if we have any

34:20

common interest, see if we have a common background. When

34:23

you say I'm a Christian and my faith matters

34:25

to me, there's a lot of us, there's some

34:27

folks can make assumptions about what that means about

34:30

you politically. And you're saying because of that you

34:32

try to be conscious about when you reveal that

34:34

information. Yeah, I mean if it's

34:36

almost like we're playing a game of chicken,

34:38

like I'm waiting for her to sell me, like

34:40

if she believes in God or I may bring

34:42

up some sort of thing about like, oh, I

34:45

went to a lunch with my small

34:47

group and then, oh, who's that small group? That

34:49

is my church small group. But, yeah,

34:52

so I try to make it come out more organically

34:54

then be like, okay, I go to church every Sunday.

34:57

I have a small group Bible study that I

34:59

meet on Tuesday nights and we kind of do

35:01

this thing like, because if the person doesn't understand

35:04

that or know that

35:06

then it's like, I don't know, maybe it is

35:08

better that I kind of be upfront with it

35:10

because it could be a very touchy subject

35:12

for some people. I have some follow-ups

35:14

on that because you know that's important to you

35:16

and because that would be important in relationship, how

35:18

do you negotiate when to talk about it versus

35:20

maybe when to not bring it up? And then

35:22

something like this where you're going to talk to

35:24

someone for seven minutes, do you expect to talk

35:26

about your thing? Yeah,

35:28

and that's the challenging part because like I think what

35:31

ends up happening a lot of people start making it

35:33

very political and then I just do

35:35

not want to go down that. Like

35:38

typically if you're a

35:40

Christian then it's like, oh, you're a Republican or

35:42

you're conservative in very specific

35:44

areas like the abortion or the gun rights and

35:46

everything like that. And then that's where it's just

35:48

like, I don't want, I don't

35:51

know, you preconceived notions. I don't want that

35:53

to be how we're

35:55

communicating to each other and I just I

35:57

want it to be a little bit more relaxed and want them

36:00

to feel comfortable like that

36:02

way. I mean like specifically,

36:05

what are the sort of like preconceptions people

36:07

have that you think you would say

36:09

you don't agree with? I'm pro-life no

36:11

matter what. The conception

36:13

people have? Yeah, because I'm a

36:16

Christian. Yeah. Can

36:18

I ask, are you? I'm

36:23

more pro-choice, to be honest.

36:25

You say that on dates, does that

36:27

come up? I

36:30

don't mention that at all, ever on a date.

36:33

That's because something... Thank you so much for talking to

36:35

us. I

36:38

have multiple thoughts. The first is, I did

36:40

a series last year about people moving away

36:42

from organized religion. And there is, based on

36:44

tons of research, there is a way in

36:47

which in this country, Christianity has been branded

36:49

as a religion of the far right. So

36:51

if you do not have those political beliefs,

36:54

often people are a little bit afraid of

36:56

saying that they are a Christian because they

36:58

think it will, you know, attach them to

37:00

a set of beliefs that they do not

37:02

identify with. So the other thing that I

37:04

think of when I hear him talk is

37:06

when I was reporting this politics and dating

37:08

series, that often couples

37:10

who were split about their abortion

37:13

stance shared a religious

37:15

background, which was super interesting

37:17

to me. I'm thinking particularly of

37:19

one couple, they were both Catholic, and

37:21

they both believe that you shouldn't have

37:24

sex before marriage. Because I

37:26

asked, I was like, well, as

37:28

a practical matter, like, this is

37:30

dangerous if you're, you know,

37:32

and they're like, well, we don't... It's moot. Because

37:35

the thing we agree on kind

37:37

of like precedes the abortion.

37:40

Exactly. So it's all theoretical. And so

37:42

I just thought, you know, again,

37:44

it just comes back to like, what

37:46

is the value system that is informing the

37:48

belief? And they could live with each other's

37:51

value system and how they came to

37:54

being pro-choice or pro-life. And it was

37:56

based in this sort of Christian value

37:58

system. And I thought that was

38:00

really interesting. Interesting. You know, another

38:02

thing a person mentioned to me while there is

38:05

as a liberal leaning person, this was

38:07

a woman who was speaking, she said

38:09

that she actually regretted writing off a

38:11

Trump supporter she previously dated. And that

38:13

came up a couple times, not necessarily

38:15

just with Trump supporters specifically, but the

38:17

people at this event saying that they

38:19

think that in the past, in the

38:21

recent kind of political past, they

38:23

were too consumed with their

38:26

sense of ideology and cut

38:29

people off in ways that they now currently

38:31

regret it. I guess as people

38:33

who are thinking about kind of

38:36

the individual ways that people make

38:38

connections, like, how

38:40

should I think about those feelings alongside

38:42

the things I think about all the

38:44

time, the division, the polarization, the kind

38:46

of macro stuff that comes up in

38:48

politics a lot like, there is an

38:50

argument here, whether it's be dating or

38:52

do the work that you all do

38:54

that, like, once you step

38:56

out of the red versus blue, we are

38:58

a little more connected or once you get

39:00

into the thirst, right, like we're a little

39:02

more connected. Like, do you think that stuff

39:05

is true? Like, I'm kind of skeptical of

39:07

that concept, like that love

39:09

conquers all, you know, but

39:12

like, am I being like a jaded

39:15

human here? Like, is that a real

39:17

lesson of these kind of individual connections?

39:20

I mean, I think it's just that

39:22

politics is just one part of what

39:24

makes up our

39:26

belief system and our value system and who we

39:29

are and how it manifests, right? So

39:31

I don't think love

39:33

conquers all, but I think that

39:35

for most people, their political

39:38

beliefs are not the most important thing about

39:40

them or not the thing that they value

39:42

most about themselves. And I might

39:44

let you have the last word here, like, put the

39:46

divisions in context for us, like, in your work, where

39:49

do you land on the love conquers all scale? Yeah,

39:52

I mean, I would love to say that

39:54

it does, but I would say the more

39:56

accurate, like, this is just my view, I

39:58

would say love conquers all. what we

40:00

want it to conquer. Like in a lot of ways

40:03

I feel like when I have

40:05

these conversations with people about the most

40:07

meaningful relationships of their life, and honestly

40:09

the series of very difficult decisions that

40:11

often we have to make to get

40:13

to a love that lasts, like I

40:15

realize that love really is just that,

40:17

which is a series of decisions. It's

40:20

like an active thing, love is

40:22

not passive, and so, I mean now I sound

40:24

like one of those motivational speakers, but I truly

40:26

believe that I think love conquers what

40:28

we want it to conquer because we have to

40:30

make a choice, so I really do

40:32

see like to love and to be

40:34

loved and to make those choices like I'm saying

40:36

as a sort of radical in its own way

40:39

act of hope. So I'd say that like no

40:41

love does not conquer all, yes we can decide

40:43

that it can conquer big things if we let

40:45

it, and like also to love is a very

40:48

hopeful, a

40:50

very hopeful orientation toward the future, and I think that's

40:52

what we all should aim

40:54

for. And that ends my speech. My grand,

40:56

you know, thank you. I felt about

40:58

this year all year, you know, like,

41:01

I think there's like a version of this year that

41:04

looks really doom and gloomy, but I'm gonna take your

41:06

perspective, and I'm gonna make sure that's not true. Good,

41:08

I hope that can help. Thank you all

41:10

for joining me today, I really appreciate it. Oh, our

41:12

pleasure. So much fun, thank you. That's

41:21

too much sunshine for show focused

41:23

on politics. We should be clear,

41:26

not everyone is as optimistic. Okay,

41:31

so how's it going so far? It's

41:33

interesting, yeah, everyone's really nice. You

41:35

think you're making any connections, so they're

41:37

gonna. No. No.

41:42

They gave it a hundred, no. But

41:45

you're having a good time, okay

41:47

good. But thank you, we appreciate it.

41:55

Thank you. Thanks

42:00

again to my colleagues Jessica Gross and Anna

42:02

Martin. Be sure to

42:04

subscribe to Jess's newsletter and

42:06

to check out the new season of Anna's show,

42:08

Modern Love, which drops this week.

42:11

Links to all of that on our site or in

42:14

our show notes wherever you get your podcasts. Find

42:24

your perfect fit with a custom suit

42:26

from Indochino. From timeless classics to bold

42:28

statements, you can express your style exactly

42:30

how you want. Get 10% off

42:33

any purchase of $3.99

42:35

or more at indochino.com

42:37

with code PODCAST. That's

42:42

the run-up for Thursday, February 15, 2024. And now,

42:44

the rundown. On

42:53

Tuesday night, Democrat Tom Swasey defeated

42:56

Republican Mazi Pillow. In the special

42:58

election in New York's third congressional

43:00

district. Despite

43:04

all the attacks, despite

43:08

all the lies about

43:10

Tom Swasey and the squad, about

43:16

Tom Swasey being the godfather

43:18

of the migrant crisis. So

43:21

take back a seat you once held and

43:24

succeed ousted Republican congressman George

43:26

Santos. Despite

43:28

the vaunted Nassau County

43:31

Republican machine, we

43:36

won. And

43:39

his victory in the race

43:41

dominated by immigration, Israel and abortion

43:44

might give other Democrats a playbook going

43:47

forward. Also,

43:49

so with President Trump closing in on

43:51

the GOP presidential nomination, the former president

43:54

is looking to shore up the RNC

43:56

ahead of the general election. Donald Trump

43:58

is pushing for a leadership. change

44:00

at the Republican National Committee. On

44:03

Monday, Trump called for his

44:05

daughter-in-law, Laura Trump, to

44:07

become the co-chair of the RNC. She

44:10

spoke with Sean Hannity on Tuesday. The

44:12

RNC should have one goal and

44:15

one focus, and that is ensuring

44:17

that the leader of the Republican

44:19

Party, Donald J. Trump, is elected

44:21

as the 47th president of the

44:23

United States, and we are able

44:25

to save this country. The

44:27

current RNC chairwoman, Ronna McDaniel,

44:30

is expected to leave her position

44:32

after South Carolina's GOP primary later

44:34

this month. And

44:38

as of Sunday during the Super Bowl, President

44:40

Biden is on TikTok. You

44:51

kidding? It's

44:55

a clear effort to connect with younger voters.

44:58

But it's also been controversial. Because

45:00

of the security concerns surrounding ByteDance,

45:03

a Chinese company that owns TikTok, there

45:08

are nine days of the South Carolina Republican

45:10

primary and 264 days until the general

45:14

election. We'll see

45:16

you next week. The

45:27

run-up is reported by me, Estet Herndon, and

45:30

produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O'Keeffe,

45:32

and Anna Foley. It's

45:34

edited by Rachel Dry, Lisa Tobin,

45:36

and Franny Cartag. With

45:39

original music by Dan Powell,

45:41

Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Sian

45:43

Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alicia

45:45

Benito. It was mixed

45:47

by Sophia Landman and back checked by Caitlin Love.

45:51

Special thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam

45:53

Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David

45:55

Halfinger, Maddie Masiello, Mahima

45:58

Chablani. and

46:00

Jennifer Poynt. Do you

46:03

have a question about the 2024 election? Email us at therunup

46:06

at nytimes.com or better yet record

46:08

your question using the voice memo

46:10

app on your phone and

46:13

then send us the file. The

46:15

email again is therunup at nytimes.com.

46:18

And finally, if you like the show

46:21

and want to get updates on latest episodes, follow

46:23

our feed wherever you get your podcasts.

46:26

Thanks for listening y'all. you

46:37

Find your perfect fit with a custom

46:39

suit from Indochino. From timeless classics to

46:41

bold statements, you can express your style

46:43

exactly how you want. Get 10% off any

46:46

purchase of $3.99 or

46:48

more at indochino.com with

46:51

code podcast.