0:00

Over the last 25 years, the world

0:02

has witnessed incredible progress from dial-up modems

0:04

to 5G connectivity, from massive PC towers

0:06

to AI-enabled microchips. Innovators are rethinking possibilities

0:08

every day. Through it all, Invesco's QQQ

0:11

ETF has provided investors access to the

0:13

world of innovation. Be a part of

0:15

the next 25 years of new ideas

0:17

by supporting the fund that gives you

0:19

access to innovative companies, Invesco QQQ. Let's

0:22

rethink possibility. There are risks when investing in ETFs, including possible

0:24

loss of money. ETFs' risks are similar to those of stocks.

0:26

Investments in the tech sector are subject to greater risk and

0:28

more volatility than more diversified investments. Before investing, carefully read

0:31

and consider fund investment objectives, risks, charges, expenses, and

0:33

more in perspectives at invesco.com, Invesco Distributors, Inc. For

0:38

months now, I've been reluctant to

0:40

talk about third parties. That's

0:42

not because of any individual candidates, but

0:45

that it's hard to know what type of impact they

0:47

could have in November, especially at

0:49

this early stage. But

0:51

this week, some news caught my

0:53

attention. The Democratic

0:56

National Committee has just formed a unit

0:58

to specifically push back against

1:00

third party and independent candidates. And

1:03

it comes at the same time some Biden

1:05

allies formed a super PAC called

1:07

Clear Choice that plans to do

1:09

the same. Meaning clearly,

1:12

Team Biden is worried about the potential

1:14

impact of outsider candidates. And

1:17

one candidate in particular is likely

1:20

the primary cause of concern. Robert

1:22

F. Kennedy Jr. He's

1:25

polling above 10 percent in national surveys.

1:29

His team says he's already secured ballot

1:31

access in key states like Nevada and

1:33

New Hampshire. And of

1:35

course, he's a Kennedy. But

1:39

for as much as RFK Jr. could matter in

1:41

November, very little is

1:44

known about him at this point besides

1:46

his famous name and

1:48

his history of spreading conspiratorial claims

1:51

about COVID, vaccines, and

1:54

the political system as a whole. So

1:57

after exploring the two major candidates. how

2:00

Democratic and Republican leadership help

2:02

create the conditions for Biden versus Trump

2:05

again. I wanted

2:07

to talk to the person who's crashing the

2:09

rematch party and positioning

2:11

himself as a potential spoiler for them

2:13

both. Today,

2:17

an interview with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. From

2:21

the New York Times, I'm Estet Herndon. This

2:24

is The Runup. Hello,

2:30

can you hear me? Hey,

2:32

Estet, it's Bobby Kennedy. Hi,

2:34

how are you? Thank you so much for joining us. I

2:36

appreciate your time. Yeah,

2:39

thanks for doing this. I

2:42

wonder if you'd allow me

2:44

to ask, what is your...what kind of

2:46

name is that? Is that

2:49

Ethiopian or...? No,

2:51

it's actually like a family name. My dad's

2:53

name is Estet, his uncle's name is Estet,

2:55

and I'm the next one of us. Wow,

2:59

all right. You

3:01

know, I too have the same name as my dad,

3:03

even though, you know, I think the pressure of

3:06

that's a little different. I

3:11

talked with RFK Jr. earlier this week with

3:13

this press team in the background. I

3:16

want to dive into this kind of life of

3:18

relationships and the kind of scope and worldview, kind

3:20

of where that came from. So, have you always

3:22

been a Democrat? It might be an obvious question.

3:25

Yes, I grew up in the

3:27

Democrat Party. And was that an identification

3:29

because of your family's history? What did the word Democrat

3:31

even mean to you as you were growing up? The

3:35

word Democrat means the party

3:37

of the Constitution, particularly

3:40

press freedom and

3:43

other religious freedoms, etc. In

3:45

the world I grew up in, the

3:47

Democrats were the protectors of the Constitution.

3:49

The Republicans often

3:52

put law and order and national security

3:54

in front of the Constitution. It

3:56

was the party of working people

3:59

of the Constitution. middle class, the Republican Party

4:01

in contrast was the party of Wall Street.

4:03

It was the party of free

4:06

speech. It was the anti-war party. It was

4:08

the party that was worried

4:11

about the domination of

4:13

America's democracy by excessive

4:15

corporate power. It

4:18

was the party of the environment, you

4:20

know, it was a party of

4:22

freedom, essentially a personal freedoms. Yeah.

4:25

It was also the party of your family.

4:28

I mean, I can't be here and not ask

4:30

the obvious question that I'm sure you've gotten

4:32

so many times, but you know, at the age

4:34

of nine, your uncle was killed. Where do

4:36

you remember about that time and what affected to

4:38

have on you and how you viewed the

4:40

political system or his political space in general? Yeah.

4:45

I mean, you know, my uncle was

4:47

kind of the son that provided the

4:49

gravity that was the center of, you

4:52

know, the orbit of all of our

4:54

orbits growing up. My father

4:56

had, there were a total of nine

4:58

siblings, the children

5:00

of Joseph and Rose Kennedy, and

5:03

we grew up, you know, with this kind

5:05

of notion that

5:08

our lives would be consumed by

5:10

some great debate and that, um,

5:13

and that it would be a

5:15

great privilege for us to

5:17

be involved in some meaningful

5:19

way in those disputes. And

5:22

then, uh, when my uncle died,

5:25

I was, you know, of course it

5:27

was, uh, it

5:29

was shattering for our whole family. Um,

5:32

I was at school that day. It said,

5:34

well friends, and my mom picked me up

5:37

early from the school and I could already

5:39

see that, that the staff,

5:41

the flags in Washington, DC on her way home

5:43

were at half staff and I asked her about

5:45

that and she said about that. But you didn't

5:47

know why. I

5:49

didn't know at that time. And then she said a

5:51

bad man shot uncle Jack. And

5:54

when I got home, my

5:57

father was walking in the yard with

5:59

John McComb. who was the head of the CIA. He

6:02

came to our home every day during

6:04

the springtime and summer to go swimming in

6:07

our pool after work. And

6:09

he would often come over for lunch and eat lunch with

6:11

my mom or dad. So I knew

6:13

him well. And he was walking with my father

6:16

in the yard when I got home. My

6:18

father actually during that conversation had

6:21

asked McComb whether

6:23

the CIA had been the authors

6:26

of his brother's shooting. And

6:30

we hugged my dad. And

6:32

that was kind of the beginning of a

6:34

long morning period. You

6:37

were 14 when your father was killed. At

6:40

the time, did you see their deaths as connected to

6:42

their political message and the work they were doing? I

6:47

saw their deaths as a risk of

6:49

politics. Okay. And

6:51

to me, I feel like

6:54

I saw politics the way

6:57

that you'd see going to war, that

6:59

this was a risk and that it

7:01

was something that took

7:04

some courage to do. And that

7:06

it was part of the cause of

7:09

maintaining a democracy. And,

7:12

but there was also a risk

7:14

involved. And I'm sure that

7:17

my uncle's deaths influenced

7:21

that belief system. Mm-hmm.

7:26

But that's a kind of Zen view to take

7:28

as a 14 year old who had

7:30

experienced such personal, you say at the time,

7:32

you thought that this was just a kind

7:34

of function of public service? Yes,

7:37

I did. And I think

7:40

my mom and

7:42

my family were really shattered by the

7:44

debt, but they also, they

7:48

wouldn't allow self-pity in our

7:50

house or victimization. Those

7:52

were regarded

7:55

as destructive impulses and

7:58

selfish impulses. My mother. I

8:00

remember her saying, you know, everybody takes

8:02

their licks and their

8:04

kids in Harlem, their kids

8:06

in Compton, their kids in

8:08

Bed-Sci who

8:11

have lost their dads, who, you know,

8:13

dads have been shot and they

8:16

don't have what you had, which is

8:18

a strong family, a strong religious belief,

8:21

good education, wealth,

8:24

and plenty of potential. And,

8:26

you know, my grandfather

8:28

kind of set this answer that people

8:32

don't whine about, that you accept what

8:37

happens and I don't embrace it.

8:40

You know, I've read a lot of details of

8:42

your life after that. I read that you were

8:44

kicked out of school twice, you were arrested, you

8:46

were sworn in as an ADA in Manhattan, but

8:48

then had to resign because you didn't pass the

8:50

bar. How did you go

8:52

from that story and land at

8:54

environmental activism? Take me through the

8:56

journey that, you know, I

8:59

see like a wayward teenager era, but

9:01

it also seems like it landed in

9:03

a passion activist, specifically in finding the

9:05

cause of the environment. How did that

9:07

happen? Well, I would

9:10

say, I mean, I became a heroin addict

9:12

pretty soon after my dad's dad. I

9:15

was a heroin addict from the age of 15.

9:17

I think after my dad's death,

9:19

I felt a pressure to pick

9:22

up the torch and I

9:25

ended up kind of following a little more

9:27

in his footsteps. I went to, you know,

9:29

Harvard, I went to the University of Virginia

9:31

Law School, which he had done. I became

9:34

a DA, you

9:36

know, which was kind of a parallel

9:38

to what my dad had done. But,

9:41

you know, I was doing things that

9:43

were not appealing to my soul. I

9:46

was doing them out of a sense

9:48

of obligation or some other sense that

9:51

was, that it was not right for

9:53

me. And when I got sober at

9:55

the age of 28, you

9:58

know, one of the important things about sobriety

10:00

is to try to be true to yourself. And I

10:02

knew that I wanted to work on the environment. You

10:04

know, when I was a little kid, I said

10:08

I wanted to be a vet or

10:10

a scientist. I was, you know, I

10:12

was in the, I love the outdoors.

10:14

I had homing pigeons that I was

10:16

raising and breeding. From when I was

10:18

seven years old, I started training hawks

10:20

when I was nine and, you know,

10:22

became obsessed with, with

10:25

falconry and had hawks my entire

10:27

life after that. Um, and so

10:30

when I, when I got sober

10:32

and started reorganizing my life, I

10:35

wanted to work with people who

10:37

were working in the environment, people who

10:39

were up to their waste in mud

10:42

and water and waders. And

10:44

so it was very, very comfortable to me to

10:46

work with the fishermen. And

10:49

I began suing polluters for the fishermen

10:51

on the Hudson River. And, you know,

10:53

I felt like I was being effective

10:55

at doing something that I loved. Yeah.

10:58

Yeah. I mean, I've listened to other interviews

11:00

where you explained this and I think this

11:02

really comes through and I think it gets

11:04

us to a portion. We can talk more

11:06

about how this informs a belief set and

11:09

how you start to use your public voice

11:11

in this time. This is when you start

11:13

using your voice specifically in the public health

11:15

arena. And you're expressing the skepticism against vaccines.

11:17

There is a now notorious retracted article in

11:19

salon that repeated the time of, I would

11:22

say heavily debunked theory that vaccines cause autism

11:24

in children. Now I want to say, I

11:26

don't want to really fight about the science

11:28

here because in my opinion, that's something that, you

11:30

know, is settled or folks can look up. I

11:32

guess I just wanted to ask you more broadly

11:34

about the choice to use your voice for

11:37

that issue. It does seem like around

11:39

this time you go from being RFK

11:41

junior environmental lawyer fighting against corporate influence

11:43

to using your voice for something other

11:45

things in the public eye. I

11:47

guess I'm asking with your voice

11:49

and with your name, how did

11:51

you think about your own personal

11:53

responsibility and lending that to these

11:55

causes? Like, even if

11:57

you believe them privately, what about the choice to do

11:59

so publicly? Well,

12:01

you know, I mean, the way that I

12:04

got into this was kicking and screaming. It

12:06

wasn't something that I wanted to do. In

12:08

2003, FDA and

12:11

the National Academy of Sciences published a

12:13

study that found that every freshwater fidget

12:15

in America had dangerous levels of mercury

12:17

in its flesh. And

12:20

the waterkeepers, by then, the waterkeeper

12:22

movement, which I had co-founded, was

12:24

the biggest water protection movement in

12:26

the world. We had

12:28

350 waterkeepers on waterways in 46

12:30

countries. And

12:34

a lot of them began suing

12:36

the coal-burning power plants and cement

12:38

kilns for discharging mercury, which was

12:40

then getting in the fish. And

12:44

I was giving speeches, public speeches, all

12:46

over the United States and Canada. And

12:49

these women started showing up at almost

12:51

all my speeches, different groups. They'd

12:55

always do the same thing. They'd come early,

12:57

occupy the front rows. And

13:00

afterwards, they'd ask to speak to me. And

13:02

they were, as it turns out, they were

13:04

the mothers of kids

13:06

with intellectual disabilities. And

13:08

they all believe that

13:11

their children have been injured by

13:13

vaccines, and particularly mercury in vaccines.

13:18

And so I started talking to them. I said I

13:20

didn't want to talk about the science, but

13:22

that's where this ended up going. So

13:25

first, we found no evidence

13:27

of a study finding dangerous levels of mercury

13:29

in all freshwater fish in

13:31

the United States, even though

13:34

it's true that nearly all fish contain at

13:36

least some traces of mercury. And

13:38

second, as for this

13:40

very debunked conspiracy that mercury

13:42

in childhood vaccines causes autism, here's

13:45

the situation. Mercury

13:47

is a dangerous heavy metal. A

13:49

specific, less harmful type of mercury used

13:52

to be used in some childhood vaccines. But

13:55

there's no link between the mercury in

13:57

vaccines and autism. taken

14:00

out of childhood vaccines in 2001. Still,

14:04

the theory continues that

14:06

the government, the CBC, and

14:08

the FDA knowingly let parents

14:11

harm children this way, all

14:13

in the name of profit for Big Pharma, which

14:15

is what really angers Kennedy. So,

14:19

you know, I was looking at just

14:22

this mass poisoning of children that nobody

14:24

was acknowledging and nobody really had the

14:26

capacity to confront. And any scientist or

14:29

doctor who came out and spoke about

14:31

it was

14:33

censored, punished, de-licensed, made

14:36

pariah. And

14:38

that kind of left me as the only

14:40

one who could actually stand up and, you

14:43

know, help these kids and these parents.

14:45

I felt like an obligation to it was not

14:48

something that I chose what I wanted to do.

14:51

If you knew about R.F.K. Jr. before he ran

14:53

for president, it was probably because

14:55

of this advocacy. And

14:58

it's not just vaccines and autism. It's

15:00

conspiracies about 5G wireless and Wi-Fi

15:03

that they can get into your body and cause cancer.

15:06

It's election denial long before

15:09

Trump turned that conspiracy mainstream. This

15:12

is a man whose life has been

15:14

defined by mistrust. Do you

15:16

see any connection between your beliefs, you

15:18

know, that, you know, the government has not been

15:20

fully honest with the citizens on a bunch of

15:23

issues and the personal tragedies that

15:25

you experience as a kid? It's

15:27

hard to ignore the fact that your

15:29

uncle and father's death were the basis

15:31

of some very big kind of American

15:33

formative beliefs about, you know,

15:35

the government not being honest or, you

15:38

know, what's been now brandished

15:40

as sort of conspiracy or conspiracy theory. Well,

15:42

I guess I'm considering like for you as

15:44

someone who has lived this,

15:46

do you see a connection between having experienced

15:50

some of the things you did growing up and kind

15:52

of where you've landed on where the

15:54

government is in terms of just as an

15:56

instrument to be trusted or not? might

16:00

be, but my skepticism about

16:02

government authorities, I think, was

16:05

really melded during my years

16:07

as an environmental attorney. My

16:12

attitudes about my uncle's death, my

16:15

father's death, I never questioned those

16:17

were the doxies until quite late

16:19

in life. I

16:22

just accepted, like you do, the

16:25

New York Times version of things that there was

16:27

a single gunman, which

16:29

now the New York Times is flip-flopping on.

16:34

As the information began

16:36

to come out and the documents

16:38

because of JFK Act and people

16:41

made confessions and I started reading

16:43

the books and the

16:46

scholarship on it, my

16:48

attitude about that changed. I'm

16:51

happy to talk to anybody about the details

16:53

of that, of what made

16:55

my attitude change. If you can tell me

16:58

something that shows that I'm wrong, then I

17:00

will... No, I

17:02

don't have a formed opinion. I

17:04

guess I'm saying... I'll tell you, I

17:08

think what you say is right,

17:10

that these were formative... Yeah,

17:12

that's what I was asking about. Most

17:18

Americans do not believe that

17:20

the official story about what happened

17:22

to my uncle, when the

17:25

church committee actually went back and

17:27

looked at these and carried hard

17:29

and all these senators, when the

17:31

house assassination committee, the select committee

17:33

on assassination went back and looked

17:36

at much more voluminous data. They

17:39

came to the official conclusion. You can read

17:41

it in the congressional records and my uncle

17:43

was killed by a conspiracy. Oh

17:46

yeah, it's a conspiracy theory, but the

17:49

United States Congress and Senate believes

17:51

it and I'm told I'm

17:54

a conspiracy theorist because I

17:56

believe that glyphosate causes non-Hodgkin's

17:59

lymphoma. but I was

18:01

able to help convince juries that it does. And

18:04

I also was called by the New

18:06

York Times a conspiracy theory, because I

18:08

said the COVID vaccines

18:11

would not prevent transmission. As

18:13

I said, there's no scientific basis or

18:17

imposing social distancing or masks. And now

18:19

the New York Times admits those things.

18:21

So you call them

18:23

conspiracy theorists until they're

18:26

proven true. For

18:30

the record, he's mostly right. The

18:33

House committee did reach the conclusion that

18:35

President Kennedy was probably assassinated as

18:38

a result of conspiracy. The

18:40

Senate committee was more ambiguous. They

18:43

concluded that the investigation into

18:45

the assassination was quote, deficient,

18:48

but that they had not found evidence of a

18:50

conspiracy. And the New York

18:52

Times continues to cite experts

18:54

who say that masking and social distancing

18:57

can help keep people safe from COVID.

19:00

But as with all conspiracies, the

19:04

power isn't in the factual basis, but

19:06

the feeling it adds up to, that

19:09

the government can't be trusted and

19:11

skepticism is required. After

19:15

the break, RFK Jr. won his

19:18

campaign. Snakes,

19:31

zombies, sharks, heights, speaking in public, the

19:35

list of fears is endless. But while

19:37

you're clutching your blanket in the dark, wondering if

19:39

the sound in the hall was actually a footstep,

19:42

the real danger is in your hand when you're behind

19:44

the wheel. And while you might

19:46

think a great white shark is scary, what's

19:49

really terrifying and even

19:51

deadly is distracted driving.

19:54

Eyes forward, don't drive distracted, brought

19:56

to you by NHTSA and the Ad Council. New

19:59

York Times. themes make me feel like

20:01

I'm amazing. Portal makes me feel things

20:03

that I don't feel from anyone else.

20:05

The Times crossword puzzle is a companion

20:07

that I've had longer than anyone outside

20:10

of my immediate family. U-N-K-L-E? Is

20:12

that his fault? No. You

20:14

should know what it's called. Okay. I

20:16

started Wordle 194 days ago and I

20:19

haven't missed a day. I absolutely love

20:21

spelling bee. I always have to get

20:23

genius. I really like words that use

20:26

few letters but give you a lot

20:28

of points. Polapa, falafel. I've seen

20:30

you yell at it and say that

20:32

should be a word. Totally should be

20:35

a word. My proudest crossword achievement is

20:37

my four minute, 54 second

20:39

Saturday. Crossword heads, you're going to be impressed

20:41

by that. When I can finish a hard puzzle

20:43

without pins, I feel like the smartest

20:45

person in the world. When I have to look

20:47

up a clue to help me, I'm learning something

20:49

new. It gives me joy every single

20:51

day. Join us and play all New York

20:54

Times games at

20:56

nytimes.com/games. So,

21:00

for years, and particularly before

21:02

his anti-vaccine pivot, RFK

21:04

Jr. was rumored as a possible candidate

21:07

for elected office. But

21:09

it wasn't until last year when he formally

21:11

announced his intentions to run for president, that

21:14

he officially joined the family business and

21:16

followed in his father's footsteps. Initially,

21:20

RFK Jr. ran as a Democrat, seeking

21:23

to challenge President Biden in the primary.

21:26

But last October, he announced he

21:29

would drop out of the Democratic primary and

21:31

run as an independent candidate, positioning

21:33

himself as a potential spoiler. That

21:37

word, spoiler, now

21:39

hangs over everything regarding Kennedy and

21:41

his campaign. Personally, as

21:44

the host of this show, I've been avoiding

21:46

the topic of third party candidates, partially because

21:48

history is really jumbled on how to

21:50

think about them in November. Obviously,

21:52

third party candidate hasn't won. But

21:55

This year seems uniquely suited to a kind of

21:57

idea of an outsider due to how many people.

22:00

Are disillusioned with the race or have said

22:02

to be interested in candidates outside of Trump

22:04

Or by then, how would you think about

22:06

the Rfk Junior Campaign? What's the point of

22:08

it? Who's it's audience? Early

22:11

in my life, I was sort of

22:13

dabbled in politics. And

22:15

that was a couple of times when I

22:17

came close to running. I

22:19

can close to running when Hillary Oil or the

22:22

middle of or what have been around. Two.

22:25

Thousand and. Ah,

22:27

Hillary one around for my

22:29

dad seat. And I

22:31

was actually considering running and

22:33

but I had family issues

22:35

that made it southern wouldn't

22:37

have been of judgments. And

22:39

then when Obama won and

22:41

she was appointed Secretary of

22:43

State. of that

22:45

of course was are exempt intimate because

22:47

was a it was of something that

22:49

never happens reserve free senate seat. I

22:52

had the same family issues that I was

22:54

a silver struggling with. An

22:57

odd that led me to believe I

22:59

send us is up and then after

23:01

that I put aside any sort of

23:04

every running for political office again. So

23:06

I was very content with what I

23:08

was when. And it wasn't until

23:10

cove and on I saw the nation

23:12

really making the is very strange noises.

23:15

And taking these very disturbed troubling

23:18

to practice oh through republican party

23:20

but also the democratic party the

23:22

democratic party losing touch with a

23:25

traditional values as if it's a

23:27

difference for censorship it became and

23:29

said. The. Driver behind

23:32

this is the other censorship of speech

23:34

is in a particularly of dissent from

23:36

or criticism of com and policies which

23:38

is exactly what a party at represent.

23:41

For so long as you think kava

23:43

kava it was a break. I mean

23:45

I hear a kind of ton of

23:48

ground covered it in terms of your

23:50

life, in your advocacy, but in that

23:52

moment. You. Actually felt that there was

23:54

a more cause of direct political accept. A

23:59

Yeah, Exactly. And the first thought

24:01

that I began toying with

24:04

is, I

24:07

had a big enough following and I could

24:09

raise enough money even

24:11

if I didn't have a chance to win a presidential

24:14

contest that they would have to force me

24:16

into the debates. And I was frustrated because

24:18

I hadn't been allowed to talk about any

24:21

of these issues. And wall

24:23

to wall censorship since 2014, beginning

24:26

really in 2005. And

24:29

by 2014, it was total eclipse. I

24:33

couldn't publish a letter to the editor. Nobody

24:35

would allow me on to talk about issues.

24:40

So, if I ran, I thought at least

24:42

I'll be able to talk about these issues

24:44

and confront them. But

24:48

my wife would have never let me run if

24:51

I wasn't gonna win. And

24:55

it would have been a hardship on my children. I

24:58

could have ended up really being kind of a joke. And

25:04

then a pollster, Jeremy Zogby,

25:08

contacted me by email and

25:11

he said, I have some poll, I've been

25:13

polling your name and

25:15

I need to show you these polls. And

25:18

he came out to Los Angeles and he

25:20

sat down with me and Cheryl. And

25:24

he was getting these results that

25:26

were extraordinary given that I

25:29

had nothing but bad publicity

25:31

for almost a decade. And

25:34

that my popularity was better than anybody. So

25:37

at that point I started thinking I could

25:39

actually win this. Anyway, as the

25:41

long version of long term. No,

25:43

I appreciate, I wanted to hear the kind of

25:45

story in full because I think it helps give

25:47

me an understanding of the arc that brought us

25:49

to this point. But it's unclear to me when

25:52

you feel like the Democratic party kind of lost

25:54

its way. Is it during that time, when would

25:56

you cite your own break with Democrats? Well,

25:58

I would say during. During that time, I saw

26:01

a lot

26:03

of disturbing things. I saw the

26:06

lockdowns businesses shut down with

26:09

no scientific citation,

26:11

no notice of

26:13

comment rulemaking, no environmental impact

26:15

statement, no

26:17

due process, none of the safeguards

26:19

of democracy that I've been

26:22

litigating against government corporations

26:24

for 40 years when they

26:27

tried to skip the democracy part of

26:29

regulation. Here you just had one guy

26:31

who one week says, Bas, don't work.

26:34

Three weeks later, he's saying, everybody put him on.

26:36

A week after that, he's saying, put on two,

26:39

and never gives a single citation for anything

26:42

that he says. And

26:44

yet everybody is saying, we get this new

26:46

thing that Democrats are saying, which is trust

26:50

the experts. Well, of course, trust

26:52

the experts is not a feature of

26:54

democracy, and it's not a feature of

26:56

science is the opposite of democracy and

26:58

science. My father told

27:00

me part of the duties of

27:03

living in a democracy is to

27:05

maintain a posture of constant versus

27:07

fierce skepticism towards

27:10

public authorities. But

27:12

you initially announced your presidential run as a

27:14

Democrat before switching to independent. Why did you

27:16

initially announce as a Democrat? Why

27:19

did you switch? My idea was

27:21

to try to recall

27:23

the Democratic Party back to its

27:26

initial values, the values of Robert

27:28

Kennedy, John Kennedy, FDR. And if

27:30

you went down a list of

27:33

everything that they believed in, and

27:36

I would check every one of those boxes. But

27:39

the Democratic Party does not believe in those

27:41

things anymore. And I thought the best path

27:43

for me was to run within

27:45

the Democratic Party, try to summons it

27:47

back to its traditional values and then

27:49

go ahead and beat Donald Trump. And

27:53

by the way, our polling was

27:55

showing me if I ran as

27:58

a Democrat decimating Donald Trump. because

28:00

I was getting a lot of independence. I was

28:02

getting a lot of Republicans. Right, but the part,

28:05

but why did you switch from the Democratic primary to

28:08

independent? I guess I still haven't heard any of that.

28:10

Because the Democratic party rigged the rules so that I

28:12

could not win. No,

28:14

as a primary candidate, it

28:17

was polling was showing you having a

28:19

real uphill battle against Biden among Democratic

28:21

primary voters. Obviously running as

28:23

an independent ensures that you can

28:25

pull from other groups. And

28:27

to your point, it

28:30

has inspired some fears of playing a spoiler

28:32

from either Joe Biden or Donald Trump. Did

28:34

you do any polling as you switched from

28:37

Democratic run to an independent run, trying

28:39

to ascertain who you would pull more votes

28:41

from in the general election in November? That

28:45

was not the purpose of our polling.

28:47

Our polling that we did was

28:50

to see if I could win. And

28:54

the polling indicated that I could win as an independent.

28:58

You are concerned at all about whether you will pull more votes

29:00

from Biden or Trump? My

29:02

purpose is to win the election. Are

29:06

you committed to staying in the race through November?

29:08

Is there any evidence, if there was any evidence

29:10

that you would help one candidate or another win,

29:12

would that cause you to drop out? No. No.

29:16

Do you have any personal fears? Even if you

29:18

believe that you can win the election, you don't

29:20

have any personal fears about the possibility of playing

29:22

a spoiler to either Biden or Trump? I

29:25

have a fear about both of them

29:27

winning the election. I

29:30

guess I'm curious about that in your view. What are

29:32

the stakes to this election? What do you think happens

29:34

if Biden wins or if Trump wins? I

29:38

see. These two

29:40

presidents ran up the national debt higher

29:42

than any president in history. We now have

29:45

a $34 trillion debt. We're

29:47

spending more on the servicing our debt than

29:50

our defense budget. The chronic disease

29:52

epidemic, I don't think either of these guys

29:54

are gonna do anything about it. And you

29:56

know, President Trump said that he

29:59

understood that. You shouldn't lock

30:01

down an entire society that it was crazy

30:03

and yet and he knew it He said

30:05

it and he gave into his bureaucracy and

30:07

let them roll over him So I don't

30:09

think he you know, I just I think

30:11

those are these But

30:14

it's scary thinking about what could have happened if either

30:16

of these guys get selected It's interesting

30:18

because a lot of what you're saying does not

30:20

sound so dissimilar to the conceit of the original

30:22

Donald Trump Presidency an outsider with a big name

30:24

a willingness to tell it like it is not

30:26

beholden to systems of power the money that backs

30:28

it I guess there's also what I think critics

30:31

would say is an intention to use kind of

30:33

conspiracy or maybe fear in The terms of bring

30:35

it to the mainstream I guess how would you

30:37

respond to that? Do you see many

30:39

similarities between what you're asking for voters to do and

30:41

what Trump has asked for voters to do in the

30:43

past? Well, I think

30:45

both of us have a populist message message, but

30:48

you know populism

30:50

can be either an instrument of idealism

30:52

or it can be as my father,

30:55

you know, I had a populist campaign

30:57

in 1968 and

30:59

then George Wallace had a populist campaign in 1972

31:02

four years later and one was a message

31:05

of darkness and the other was a

31:07

message of a light I Want

31:09

to use my last couple minutes? Well, I

31:11

think I hear what you believe in terms

31:13

of the government's failures during the pandemic I

31:16

guess what's harder to understand about your candidacy

31:18

is where it kind of stands on the

31:20

broader issues, right? You've gone back and forth

31:22

on the national abortion ban You've changed your

31:24

opinion when it comes to the southern border

31:26

There's even less known about what you would

31:28

do in a foreign conflict in terms of

31:30

war a war in Gaza or over in

31:32

Ukraine I guess I'm asking like because of

31:34

that should we see this candidacy as a

31:36

protest vote or Considering your comfort

31:38

with you know playing the role of spoiler How am

31:41

I not supposed to see it as an as

31:43

a spoiler campaign considering just the level

31:45

of unknowns? Well,

31:48

I there is a level on what

31:50

your your statement yours synopsis of my

31:53

record is Just

31:55

a disinformation campaign. It's

31:58

not accurate. They do not back

32:00

and forth on the abortion ban? No,

32:03

I've been consistent about abortion, that

32:05

women should have the right to

32:07

choose. And that's my position. Listen,

32:11

if you want to know what my position is,

32:13

go to our website, go to my interviews and

32:15

watch them. And I've been very, very consistent about

32:17

that. Women should have a right to choose, women

32:19

should be in charge. I've been a champion

32:23

for medical freedom, for bodily autonomy,

32:25

more than anybody in this country.

32:28

Oh, and I stick by that.

32:31

People should go to our website, kennedy24.com,

32:35

if they want to know what my

32:37

position, our issues are, on not flip-flopping

32:39

on issues. If I, now listen, if

32:41

I learn something and I'm going to

32:44

change my position, I think we want politicians

32:46

to do that. You

32:48

know, I learned something about the border from

32:50

doing two trips, spending three days on one

32:52

trip down there, two days on another. And

32:55

I saw what was happening, the chaos,

32:57

the destruction, the humanitarian

33:00

crisis. And yeah,

33:02

I changed my position on that, and

33:05

I think, don't we want politicians who can

33:07

respond in common sense ways when new information

33:09

comes in front of them? I

33:12

think we do. You

33:14

know, my last kind of point or question, I

33:17

really do think that they're in this

33:19

conversation. There's so many signs of someone

33:21

who has been navigating kind of difficult

33:23

life circumstances in the public eye, someone

33:25

whose name has afforded them access

33:27

and privilege to information, but also kind of

33:29

insulated them from political consequences. I'm still stuck

33:32

at you saying that you really haven't thought

33:34

about whether you pull more from Biden or

33:36

Trump, or that's not really a thought

33:39

process. I did

33:41

not say I have not thought about it. I mean, you say

33:43

you didn't pull from it, and that's not like an important thing.

33:46

Why would I pull from that? My intent was

33:48

to see whether I could win this race.

33:53

Well, I'll ask again, then, specifically. And by the

33:55

way, here's what the polling's showing. The polling is

33:57

showing. showing,

34:00

you know, political internet, an article

34:02

on this house with, and I

34:05

am polling, I'm my strongest supporters

34:09

are independents. There are people who don't want

34:11

to vote for Trump or Biden, and I

34:13

beat Trump and Biden among independents. So you

34:15

know, in that sense, I'm not polling for

34:18

me. I'm also beating

34:20

President Trump, President Biden among people

34:23

under 35 nationally, people under

34:25

45 in the battleground

34:27

states. There are

34:29

people who probably would not vote for either

34:32

Trump or Biden. They're going to vote because

34:34

I'm in the race. People

34:36

don't want to choose between the lesser of

34:38

two evils. They want somebody they can believe

34:41

in, somebody that they face, and somebody that

34:43

they like, and my popularity is greater than

34:45

any political figure right now, according to every

34:47

poll. And

34:50

I guess that's not the question I'm

34:52

asking you, though. I'm the question

34:54

everybody asked me, which is, you know,

34:56

what every every reporter asked, are

34:59

you a spoiler? And I'm like, you know, listen, I

35:01

don't know who I'm going to pull from. So

35:03

we gave 10 extra minutes. I totally understand.

35:05

Can I ask this final question? Can I ask this?

35:07

I just want to be understood. As

35:10

long as I've understood and you answer it, then we

35:12

can totally get out of there. That's I totally know

35:14

it is a privilege to be understood. Most

35:17

people have said that. Yeah, I

35:20

am. Yeah, I'm asking for you to

35:22

understand. OK, I am saying

35:24

considering the long road of viability that

35:26

you have in a third party candidate,

35:29

even though you believe that you have a

35:31

good chance of winning, there's a

35:33

much higher likelihood that because

35:35

of those structural barriers, that your candidacy is

35:37

less likely to be successful than Biden or

35:40

Trump's. I am saying, considering

35:42

that reality, how do

35:44

you then think about your potential impact on

35:46

this race? Is that a thing that you

35:49

think about at all? I think

35:51

I'm going to have a good impact on this country.

35:55

And I listen to

35:57

everybody that I've admired in history.

36:00

as I admired because they've

36:02

gone against conventional wisdom, they've

36:04

gone against, you know, sometimes

36:07

their families, sometimes their friends,

36:09

sometimes their political parties, their

36:11

allies, and

36:13

they win. And that's why

36:15

I admire them. And I believe I'm going to

36:17

win this race. And

36:19

in any case, I'm going to have a

36:22

positive impact on this country, because I'm going

36:24

to get people to start questioning some of

36:26

these orthodoxies that have been so destructive to

36:28

our health, to our

36:30

economy, political polarization.

36:32

And, you know, I'm

36:34

bringing, you know, listen, I'm

36:37

healing a divide here. The people, so,

36:41

you know, I think the reality of the stakes,

36:43

how would you respond to someone who says that

36:46

someone who has the name, access and wealth that

36:49

you do are insulated from a lot of the

36:51

consequences of maybe some elections, that in the same

36:53

way that you think you're acting on what you

36:55

believe in, that it requires a certain level of

36:58

privilege to do so without thinking

37:00

about the possibility of being a spoiler. How

37:02

would you respond? You know, I don't even

37:05

know, I really don't understand what your question

37:07

is. I don't understand

37:09

what your question is. Listen, I'm

37:11

running a race. I'm

37:14

raising the money that I need.

37:16

I have an organization that we

37:18

believe is better than any of

37:20

the other political organizations. I'm surrounded

37:22

by people who are motivated by

37:25

very, very pure impulses because they

37:27

love this country. I'm offering a

37:29

vision to Americans that they're not

37:31

getting. 70% of the people in

37:33

this country do not want a contest

37:35

between Trump and Biden. Don't you feel

37:38

that those people should have an option?

37:40

I mean, or isn't that

37:42

kind of a privileged position that you have

37:46

of taking the position that the New

37:48

York Times is not going to allow those

37:50

people to get into those Americans who

37:52

don't want to see a rerun of this contest?

37:55

Don't you think they deserve something? Are you

37:57

going to sit there and say, nobody? should

38:00

do that because I'm scared of this guy

38:02

or I'm scared of that guy. The

38:04

reason that we have pressured Democrats about the way

38:06

that they set up Biden and about Republicans about

38:08

the way that they set up Trump is because

38:11

of that very fact, because of the fact that

38:13

most Americans do not want these two options. I

38:15

guess I'm asking you, listen, the New York Times,

38:17

a Democratic is essentially an instrument of the Democratic

38:19

party. I understand you're making institutional argument. I'm asking,

38:21

I'm asking about the work that we do. And

38:23

I'm posing a question to you. You've

38:25

been making institutional arguments against me

38:28

since this started. You

38:31

know, you're you are a, you're an

38:34

instrument of the DNC. And of course you're going

38:36

to try to, you know, get people your, your

38:38

job as, you

38:41

know, doing what you're doing is to try

38:43

to spin this some way that it's going

38:46

to help Biden and hurt Trump

38:48

and get rid of any threat to, you

38:50

know, to that a

38:52

narrow guardrail in the guardrail contest that

38:54

the New York Times approves of. And

38:56

it's just not right for our country.

38:58

And I'm not going to go along

39:01

with it. Thank

39:03

you so much. Yeah. Thank you all. I appreciate your

39:05

time. And just so you know, like, that's not what

39:07

I'm here to do. No, everyone's asked a question I

39:09

was asking. So we have like, uh, uh, we're going

39:11

to be able to get this back to you. We're

39:13

planning to do this on Thursday. Um,

39:15

and we, uh, appreciate your time. Great.

39:18

I'll work with Anna. Thank you. So

39:24

RFK Jr. believes he's going to win

39:27

and his campaign is plowing ahead efforts

39:30

to secure ballot access in critical States

39:33

like Wisconsin, Michigan, and

39:35

Pennsylvania are already underway and

39:38

the campaign will soon unveil his choice for vice

39:40

president. After floating names

39:42

like Aaron Rogers, the NFL

39:44

quarterback, who has also dabbled in conspiracy

39:47

and Nicole Shanahan, the Bay

39:50

Area lawyer and investor, but the

39:52

flashy VP pick or getting

39:55

on the ballot in all 50 States would

39:57

not immediately take Kennedy from the fringe to

39:59

the main. mainstream. Because

40:02

while RFK Jr. sets his messages one

40:04

that calls back to a more populous

40:06

version of the Democratic Party, that's

40:09

not quite what I heard. I heard

40:11

a man completely convinced of his convictions,

40:14

no matter how unfounded. And

40:17

I heard a candidate convinced

40:19

of his own viability, no

40:22

matter the evidence against it. In

40:25

other words, the perfect recipe forthificed.

41:06

You look around your business and see

41:08

inefficiency everywhere. So you should know these

41:10

numbers. 37,000, the number

41:13

of businesses which have upgraded to the

41:15

number one cloud financial system, NetSuite by

41:17

Oracle. 25, NetSuite

41:19

just turned 25. That's

41:21

25 years of helping businesses streamline

41:23

their finances and reduce costs. That's

41:25

the run-up

41:45

for Thursday, March 21, 2024. Now

41:49

the rundown. On

41:51

Tuesday night, the march to

41:53

Biden and Trump's nominations continue. elections

42:00

in Arizona. That's not a

42:02

surprise. Showing incoming candidate

42:04

President Joe Biden, winning the

42:06

Kansas Democratic nomination, 84% of tally votes. Former

42:10

President Trump also winning the state's

42:12

Republican nomination, 75%. And

42:16

once again, we can declare the

42:18

race here in the Illinois presidential

42:20

primary, going to President Joe Biden

42:22

as we... Oh, don't

42:24

forget Donald Trump, I'm sorry, from the Republican

42:26

Party, is clinched to the nomination here

42:29

in Illinois as well. Former President Donald Trump

42:31

already going into the day as the presumptive

42:33

GOP nominee, Trump winning Florida with more than

42:35

80% of the vote. We

42:38

have results from how Ohio voted for the

42:40

candidate. Yes, former President Trump collected more than

42:42

79% of the vote after

42:44

major challenges dropped out of the race. Meanwhile,

42:46

President Biden secured 85% of the vote, securing

42:49

their place in the presidential primary and

42:51

forecasting a 2020 rematch coming up in

42:54

November. Trump took home

42:56

wins in all five Republican primaries. Biden

42:59

also swept his contest, winning

43:01

in all four Democratic primaries. And

43:05

in one of the most consequential Senate races come

43:07

November, Marina won every county

43:09

in Ohio last night, which sets

43:11

us up right now for a

43:13

really good matchup between Marina and

43:15

November against Sherra Brown, the Democrat

43:17

who's held that seat for several

43:20

cycles. Bernie Moreno, the Cleveland businessman

43:22

who was backed by Trump, beat

43:24

out Republican state Senator Matt Zolin.

43:27

That seat is crucial to the GOP's hopes

43:29

of winning back a majority in the US

43:31

Senate. For

43:34

229 days from the general election.

43:38

See you next week. The

43:50

run-up is reported by me, Esteb Herndon,

43:53

and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin

43:55

O'Keefe and Anna Foley. Dry

44:00

and Lisa Tobin. With

44:02

original music by Dan Powell,

44:05

Marion Lozano, Pat McCuster, Diane

44:07

Wong, Sophia Landman, and Alicia

44:09

Butt-Youtub. It was mixed

44:12

by Sophia Landman and back checked by Caitlin

44:14

Love. Special thanks to

44:16

Paula Schumann, Sam Dolnick,

44:18

Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger,

44:21

Maddie Maciello, Mahima Chablani,

44:23

Jeffrey Miranda, Elizabeth Bristow,

44:25

and Rebecca O'Brien. Do

44:29

you have questions about the 2024 election? Email

44:31

us at therunup at nytimes.com. Or

44:34

better yet, record your question using the voice

44:36

memo app in your phone. And

44:39

email again, it's therunup at

44:41

nytimes.com. Thanks for listening, y'all.

44:52

We're driven by the search for better, but when

44:54

it comes to hiring, the best way to

44:56

search for a candidate isn't to search at

44:58

all. Don't search. Match with Indeed. Indeed is

45:00

your matching and hiring platform with over 350

45:02

million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed Data,

45:05

and a matching engine that helps you find

45:07

quality candidates fast. Enlisters of a show will

45:09

get a $75 sponsor

45:11

job credit to get your jobs

45:13

more visibility at indeed.com/podcast. Just go

45:15

to indeed.com/podcast right now and support

45:17

the show by saying you heard

45:19

about Indeed on this podcast.

45:21

indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply

45:24

need to hire you need Indeed.