0:01

So

0:03

there's this show hosted

0:05

by Steve Bannon. the former Trump

0:08

strategist. It's called

0:10

WarRoom. And while

0:12

it's controversial enough that

0:14

YouTube and Spotify won't

0:16

publish it. In the conservative

0:19

world, it's a big deal.

0:21

Okay. When live at

0:22

CPAC, the war were positive. A couple

0:25

months ago, Bannon hosted a

0:27

live recording at CPAC. Basically,

0:30

the most important gathering of

0:32

influential grassroots conservatives.

0:35

and he brought out again. man. Okay.

0:37

Glenn's story is the founder of Patriot Mobile.

0:40

You gotta hear what he has to say. I tell you

0:42

what, this is a guy that puts his

0:44

values in back of his business.

0:46

Someone with a blueprint for conservative

0:48

politics in the Trump era. Yeah. It's pretty

0:50

simple. We put God first. amen.

0:54

The head of a Christian cell phone

0:56

company. We are a Christian conservative

0:58

cell phone company and we carve out a poor

1:01

of our proceeds and donate back to conservative

1:03

cause. It's called Patriot Mobile. We

1:05

take biblical principles and we say, hey,

1:07

we're gonna donate causes it really

1:09

matter. And during the interview with his value.

1:12

He lays out how they use their money.

1:14

We went and found, I believe, eleven

1:16

candidates and we supported

1:18

them. And we won every

1:21

seat. We took over Eleven eleven

1:23

eleven seats on Starboard, took over

1:25

four. when we live for him.

1:31

It's all part of a strategy to point

1:33

energy at the local level. and

1:36

stay ahead of a changing country. As

1:38

I said last night, one of the keys is

1:40

these school boards. Right? The school boards

1:42

are the key that picks the lock. Talk to us

1:44

about what you did in Tarrant County -- Today.

1:46

-- a case study in grassroots

1:49

Republican politics. So it is important

1:51

to save Tarrant County -- And weather Democrats.

1:54

and catch up. Are we gonna save Tarrant County?

1:57

Yes. Let's

1:59

give a big shot of a Patreon mobile. Patreon

2:01

mobile. From The New York Times, I

2:03

must head herntin. This

2:06

is the run up.

2:11

home

2:15

Alrighty team. Mhmm. We

2:17

all we all miked up and ready. I

2:19

think so. I kind

2:20

of wanted to do the first question. So my colleague,

2:23

David Goodman, is the Houston Bureau Chief.

2:26

And he's the one who told me this story

2:28

about Patreon Mobile.

2:30

David, what's the backdrop of

2:33

how you come to report on this story? So

2:35

I moved to Texas last July and

2:38

one

2:38

of the major political questions that's

2:40

hung over the state really in every

2:42

election cycle going back several

2:44

is when the state is going to

2:46

turn blue if And,

2:48

you know, hopes it brings a turn along Democrats

2:51

that it will eventually do this,

2:53

but they keep falling flat. But there's a

2:55

big asterisk to that, and it's these

2:57

suburban counties that had been trending towards

2:59

the democrats in recent years.

3:01

And That was particularly the case

3:03

in the surrounding county of Fort Worth called

3:05

Tarrant County where you had the

3:07

county actually go slightly blue in each

3:09

of the last election. So in twenty twenty and

3:11

in twenty eighteen. Yeah. Yeah. You

3:13

know, as a political reporter, the question of

3:16

whether Texas will turn blue feels

3:18

like I'm the president. always

3:20

everywhere. But it's because

3:22

it's so central, right, to the political

3:25

future of the country. If that were to

3:27

happen, Democrats

3:28

would have a huge,

3:30

I mean, almost insurmountable advantage

3:32

in things like the electoral college

3:34

through big states like California

3:36

and Texas. But it seems like

3:38

you're saying that if that's going to happen,

3:41

it's likely going to be driven

3:43

largely through these suburbs. that

3:46

have been trending Democrats. Is

3:48

that right?

3:48

Yeah. I mean, that's where the Democrats have been

3:50

making their gains and where the Republicans

3:53

really need to make a last stand if they're

3:55

going to keep some of the demographic shifts

3:57

and voting patterns from overtaking them.

3:59

And so it's become

4:01

this this real battleground and

4:03

nowhere really more intensely, I

4:05

think, than in the suburbs around

4:08

Fort Worth and Dallas just because those

4:10

are suburbs that are just very traditionally conservative.

4:13

really reacted strongly to, you

4:15

know, seeing their fellow,

4:17

you know, neighbors and whatnot voting more

4:19

democratic over time. And so this

4:21

became a real cause. You saw actually a very

4:23

strong tea party emerge in that area

4:25

and it sort of morphed into, you know, a

4:27

pretty engaged conservative base

4:30

in that part of the state. So

4:32

how does Patriot Mobile factor

4:34

in here? I should say I've heard of this company

4:36

they would pop up in

4:37

my reporting on conservative politics

4:40

every now and then. Their

4:41

swag is very visible at

4:43

Trump rallies. I've seen their ads

4:45

in conservative media but

4:48

I've never gotten a full understanding of

4:50

what they're

4:50

up to. Well,

4:53

it's true they've been around for a while. I didn't

4:55

really know too much about them.

4:57

And that's why I went out to try and, you

4:59

know, set up an interview and and actually talk to them

5:01

face to face. You know, it was pretty clear to

5:03

me they weren't gonna agree to a a phone interview

5:05

with the New York Times necessarily. That'll be better

5:07

if I showed up in person and and talk

5:09

to them. But when you track down the

5:11

address from their campaign

5:13

filings. It's a a PO box in in Grapevine,

5:16

Texas, north of Fort Worth. I dug a little

5:18

deeper and I was able to find an actual

5:20

address of a place and I I drove

5:22

to that office park and

5:24

knocked on the door and went through, and it

5:26

was completely unmarked from the outside. But when you got

5:28

inside, there was all kinds of folks wearing, you know,

5:30

Patriot Mobile T shirts and and this

5:32

other branding around. So I knew I had landed

5:34

in the right place, but it was not the right

5:36

time. This was back in the spring, and they decided

5:38

they didn't wanna have anything to do with a reporter

5:40

who just showed up at their door. And

5:42

they an experience we both had before.

5:45

Well, they were surprised to see me in fact

5:47

because they've done a lot to try and conceal

5:49

sort of their location. They would say for

5:51

safety reasons, And so they were

5:53

surprised that that I had showed up, but I did have a a

5:55

brief conversation with the president and one

5:57

of the founders Glenn's story. And

5:59

he essentially, you know, said he'd think about

6:02

interview and thought about it and

6:04

said no. But then I decided to keep pushing

6:06

it because their influence was really very clear in

6:08

that area. that they were spending a

6:10

a significant amount of money, and I felt like

6:12

their story needed to be told. And

6:14

I followed up a couple months later, and

6:17

reiterated my interest in talking, and and

6:19

we had a long cell phone conversation off

6:21

the record about what kind of story I wanted

6:23

to do. And And, you know, he came

6:25

away, at least at that moment, convinced that

6:27

he wanted to sit down. Hi there.

6:29

Hi. Sorry, David. Hey. Nice to hear

6:31

you. So tell me about that. you go

6:33

back to this office park, and this time

6:35

they let you in.

6:36

Okay. So I guess I'll go

6:37

ahead. Okay. So we're gone. Yeah. So it looks a

6:39

lot like, you know, a typical small business.

6:41

You have cubicles and people kind of buzzing

6:43

back and forth. But it's just a little bit different and

6:45

has a little bit more of a conservative feel,

6:47

namely because you have flags that you

6:49

might see at a conservative rally hanging from some of

6:51

those cubicles, including one modeled on

6:53

the Texas flag, except there are two silhouettes

6:56

of assault rifles on it, and the words come

6:58

and take it in Hebrew and in

7:00

English. You know, who signed your guitar?

7:02

It doesn't say MacBook. Got

7:05

it. Yeah. It does. Yeah. It's let's

7:07

just say it's a pretty notable name. Is it

7:09

Trump? No. It is. Oh, it's

7:11

his son. Oh, it's done junior. Alright.

7:13

Alright. He's These

7:15

are good guys. And, you know, so these isn't

7:17

overtness to the politics that are just not

7:19

present in your typical office

7:22

space. The other thing they do at the office is

7:24

every Tuesday they have a bible study

7:26

with senator Ted Cruz's father,

7:28

Rafael. saying that. Where does that take place?

7:31

It's just a packed conference room with people out

7:33

in the hallways trying to listen in. So

7:35

for those that are interested and it seems like a lot of

7:37

people are that's a a real highlight of

7:39

the week there. So it's a

7:41

normal sort of company, but it's got, you

7:43

know, these aspects that make it, you know,

7:45

unique. Yeah. And what did you learn when

7:47

you sat down with Clint? Yes. So I sat

7:49

down in in Glen's office with him and with

7:51

his wife, Jenny Story, who's the chief

7:53

operating officer for the company. Mhmm. And

7:56

with their sort of VP for government

7:58

affairs, Lee Wamsgond's. And she

8:00

also runs a separate entity, which is their

8:02

political action committee. And

8:04

so we spoke for almost

8:06

two hours take I'm actually really curious just how

8:08

you got started and kinda what your experience

8:10

has been with the business, like, with You know, what they

8:12

do? They don't operate their own towers or

8:14

anything like that. They essentially buy

8:16

space from T Mobile? Is there the provider

8:19

they take space from? And then they will sell

8:21

you your cell phone and a plan and and they're,

8:23

like, the customer service. part of it. Mhmm.

8:25

But really for these executives, that's not the exciting part.

8:27

You know, the exciting part for them was the

8:29

conservative politics that the business

8:31

allowed them to pursue. And we

8:33

were purely political until

8:35

about three years ago when we put God

8:37

first. Mhmm. One of my board members

8:39

said, look, you guys are putting your

8:41

God first. put him first --

8:43

Mhmm. -- and you will lead the last rigley.

8:45

And right after that, you know,

8:47

our our growth is just on

8:49

exponential And I'm sorry. That was and they talk

8:51

about it as this is their for profit

8:53

mission. And they see it as a Christian mission.

8:55

On the whiteboard and and Glenn's

8:57

office, he has the core values for the company

8:59

still sort of written and you know,

9:01

handwriting with a black marker, you know, in the

9:03

first one, it says, missionaries versus

9:05

mers mercenaries. Missionaries

9:07

versus mercenaries. a mercenary is

9:09

somebody that's out here just to make

9:11

money. Mhmm. I'm gonna sell as many

9:13

cars. I don't really care about the byproduct.

9:16

Well, a missionary is somebody that really

9:18

buys into what you're doing, and we're

9:20

not selling a car.

9:22

We're selling a relationship. Mhmm. Mhmm.

9:24

And that's a very different thought. We

9:26

are believers. Now the rest of it

9:28

won't and then the second one

9:30

is God is in control. and

9:32

they talk about that, that all the decisions they make they

9:34

prey on and that's how they view their

9:36

business. So when

9:38

they say for profit mission, what

9:40

is that mission. What are the conservative

9:42

Christian causes? That Patreon Mobile is

9:44

most concerned about. We've migrated

9:46

away from the pure politics

9:48

and -- Mhmm. -- and our four really

9:50

are four pillars. Well, so broadly, they

9:52

set out a mission for themselves

9:54

of essentially four areas or four pillars that

9:56

they would they would say. First

9:58

amendment. First amendment. Yeah. The

10:00

second amendment. They're about

10:02

support for the military

10:04

military and first responders and right to

10:06

life. And then the pro life issues.

10:09

Pretty standard conservative causes.

10:11

Exactly. And for a while, Inland was

10:13

telling me they were just giving their money to

10:15

to politics and the local causes that

10:17

were, you know, bigger than them. And then

10:19

they started to look more in their

10:21

own backyard. when you

10:23

hear the stuff that some of these schools

10:25

were allowing these kids -- Mhmm. -- the

10:27

pictures we have -- Mhmm. -- going

10:29

into the school and getting the books,

10:31

you would be mortified. I don't. And

10:34

they, just this year, decided

10:36

to start spending money on local

10:38

school board races. Yeah.

10:40

What do you think of this one? Look at this picture.

10:42

All the executives have kids in the schools

10:44

in this area. And then he'll show you another

10:46

one. I mean, this is just awful. And they

10:48

were very focused at least in the meeting that I

10:50

had with them on the content of the

10:52

books that were being offered to offered to

10:54

students. Parents

10:54

do not believe gender

10:57

issue should be discussed in k through twelve.

10:59

Mhmm. Especially Christian parents

11:01

do not want multiple

11:04

genders discussed with their children.

11:06

And so Bicep. It really wasn't

11:08

born of their pillars per se, but more

11:10

of the general sense of their faith in

11:12

being able to instill that faith in their own

11:14

kids and and have other parents

11:16

be allowed to do that themselves for

11:18

their own children.

11:19

And

11:20

so what does this actually look like

11:22

for them getting involved in these races? Well,

11:24

there were several. There's four different, you know, independent

11:26

school districts where they supported candidates.

11:28

And the one that I looked at most specifically

11:30

was one called Grapevine Colliville

11:32

ISD. And this is a school district that spans

11:34

two towns Grapevine and Colliville. And

11:36

Grapevine is the corporate

11:38

headquarters for Patriot Mobile. that's the reason I was most

11:40

interested in that district because everything

11:42

was kinda happening right, you know, in a span

11:44

of a few miles. The other reason

11:46

I was interested in focusing on that area is that

11:48

it it had this recent history with

11:50

the district having gotten rid of a a

11:52

pretty popular new

11:54

black principal at its high school. The first black

11:56

principal that they'd had at the the College of

11:58

Heritage High and he only lasted there a

12:00

year. And that year was really

12:02

marked by a lot of controversy,

12:04

especially towards the end and

12:06

parents coming school board meetings and

12:08

complaining that the principal was

12:10

bringing, you know, critical race theory, quote unquote,

12:12

into the schools. Mhmm. And

12:13

I hate to say the CRT word

12:16

because people think it's Sunday,

12:18

Bohemia. Mhmm. And the bottom line

12:20

is, is there was

12:20

teacher training that we got through

12:23

public information requests

12:24

showing that they were

12:26

asking teachers to judge

12:28

kids based on the amount of melanin in

12:30

their skin -- Really? -- which is and

12:32

was, you know, privileging conversations about

12:34

equity and diversity over

12:36

concerns about the education of the

12:38

students. And there was a

12:40

a pretty bitter back and

12:42

forth that ended with the principal

12:44

agreeing to step down and the

12:46

school district moving on from him.

12:48

But it was a kind of you know, ugly

12:51

chapter that came to a close

12:53

only really at the end of last year. And

12:55

so this was the backdrop for them

12:57

these school board elections that come up in in

12:59

the following spring. And so there was

13:01

an effort to push further with, you

13:03

know, more changes that they could put into place.

13:06

I mean, it seems like you're laying out a school district that

13:08

has a lot going on. What kind

13:10

of impact did Patriot's mobile

13:12

involvement and investment half are

13:14

those school board races? Well,

13:16

these are races where really only, you

13:18

know, a few thousand dollars is spent, you know,

13:20

by a campaign and and here you had Patriot

13:23

Mobile allocating four hundred twenty

13:25

thousand dollars to eleven different candidates.

13:27

Right. Right. Right. If you wanna focus

13:29

on national politics, Maybe

13:31

that four hundred thousand dollars doesn't go that

13:33

far.

13:33

But when you're looking at a

13:35

school board race or a local race,

13:37

as essentially bring

13:39

a Bazooka to a knife fight. Like, right,

13:41

that has a big impact. Right? That

13:43

money goes in just a dramatic

13:45

way in these little races where people

13:47

name recognition is is quite low if it exists

13:49

at all. And people go to the polls out

13:51

of, you know, sense of duty often on a day

13:54

that's unusual. This is vote

13:56

that was in May that didn't have any other

13:58

races besides a couple of local

13:59

ones happening. So

14:01

that spending had a suggested

14:03

tremendous effects. I mean, they won

14:05

each of the eleven races

14:07

where they favored a candidate. Oh. And in

14:09

doing so, you know, they put more conservative

14:12

School Board members on the boards of four

14:14

school districts, you know, solidifying

14:16

control in some cases. And in the case of

14:18

Grapevine Collegeville Schools

14:19

flipped We have a conservative

14:22

majority now, and they're focusing more on

14:24

education and trying to stay out of the

14:26

indoctrination. So

14:26

Actually, flipping control from a

14:28

board that had been, you know, more centrist to one

14:31

that was decidedly much more

14:33

conservative. Say more about that.

14:35

There were a bunch of new policies that were

14:37

under discussion And once the school board

14:39

flipped those new policies that more

14:41

tightly restricted books and changed

14:43

the way students and their pronouns would

14:45

be handled, those new policies passed

14:47

easily. And so it changed the

14:49

atmosphere in the schools pretty

14:51

quickly. the other thing that happened during

14:53

that school board fight that kinda didn't get as

14:55

much attention sort of flew under the radar was at the

14:57

school board at the same time as they were voting changes

15:00

to how books are handled and how transgender

15:02

students are dealt with in the school and

15:04

pronouns and all the hot button issues, they

15:06

also change the election rules. What

15:08

do you mean?

15:09

well Well,

15:10

what they decided to do is move from a

15:12

system where you had to get a majority

15:14

of the vote to win a seat on the

15:16

school board to one where the person

15:18

who had the plurality of the votes would

15:20

win. And so the current system, if

15:22

you don't get a a majority, there's a runoff

15:24

election between the two top vote

15:26

getters. And what they said was, hey,

15:28

that system is too expensive and,

15:30

you know, pointless in these small races

15:33

where we can just say the

15:35

person who has the most votes of the

15:37

candidates who are running gets that

15:39

seat. Mhmm. So this was presented as a cost

15:41

saving measure. It's completely within

15:43

the rules of how these elections are run. You

15:45

can either do plurality system or one with

15:47

runoffs. But they changed this, you know,

15:49

at this very heightened moment.

15:51

And opponents of the new

15:53

school board said they did it in order to serve

15:55

their majority on the

15:57

theory that the folks that are

15:59

currently in control of the school

16:01

board have a really animated and

16:03

organized base of support. and that they always

16:05

turn out a plurality, you know, forty

16:08

percent or so of the voters. And as

16:10

long as their, you know, was more

16:12

than one other candidate, they stood

16:14

to hold on to those seats or even gain them with new

16:16

candidates. So this is actually

16:18

seen as a way of maintaining

16:20

power by the folks in the school board

16:22

even if, you know, majority of

16:24

voters were voting against them. As long as they

16:26

could sort of split their opposition, they can hold

16:28

on to their seats.

16:30

That feels like a pretty big success

16:32

story. Oh, certainly. And,

16:34

you know, you've seen them get a ton of

16:37

national attention for this in conservative

16:39

circles. I mean, were fetted at

16:41

CPAC by Steve Bannon. And so they've kind of

16:43

become these darlings of

16:45

the far right here, especially

16:47

those who really champion Christian values

16:49

and wanna see them more in place and

16:51

policy. You know, at the local

16:53

level, there's few things that

16:55

have more of an impact on the community than how

16:57

your schools are run. It's what's taught

16:59

on issues of race and gender. It's

17:01

what your children are coming

17:03

home with. and telling you about they know about the world.

17:05

And so it's a very direct kind of

17:08

reflection back to conservatives of

17:10

this changing society that they're looking to

17:12

push against. And so this is a very powerful

17:14

space in order to try and take a little bit

17:16

more control. Mhmm. You know, and so there's

17:18

this understanding of a of a larger political

17:21

opportunity here to own

17:23

the idea of parental rights. And

17:25

you've already seen other communities sort

17:27

of looking to their playbook and thinking about

17:29

how it can be expanded. and it's

17:31

something that they've talked about that they sort of put this

17:34

together and hope to be able to

17:36

show other places that maybe don't have

17:38

the resources to develop plans of their

17:40

own, kinda give them essentially

17:42

this strategy for how to how to

17:44

win -- Mhmm. -- a blueprint.

17:46

Exactly. Exactly. And you

17:48

know, I talked to them about what's next, and they

17:50

were not really that interested in in

17:53

getting into the nitty gritty of where they plan to

17:55

spend their money, especially after this

17:57

election cycle here in Texas. But you can sort

17:59

of see how the model might scale. And for example, Fort

18:01

Worth, which is, you know, the largest city in

18:03

Texas that's still run by Republicans,

18:06

You have a mayor there who came up

18:09

under a a Republican who was

18:11

fairly centrist. And and that former mayor

18:13

actually just lost the

18:15

county race in the Republican primary

18:17

to a candidate who is aligned

18:19

with Patriot Mobile and in fact, is friends with

18:21

one of the folks who helps engineer

18:23

Patriot Mobile's strategy. And so you

18:25

could sort of see them thinking, we're gonna push not only school boards in a

18:28

more conservative direction, but maybe

18:30

also start to think about how to do that at the

18:32

county level. And then at the level of

18:34

one of the largest cities in the state of Texas. Mhmm.

18:36

And this feels critical because as

18:38

you said,

18:39

these communities are

18:41

core to the question of whether Texas flips,

18:43

and that

18:44

is core to the

18:45

question of

18:47

America's political direction.

18:50

It

18:50

feels like a lot of that ties back to these communities,

18:52

which is why you went there.

18:54

So how should we

18:55

think then about Patriot

18:58

Mobile's place? in that larger

19:00

store? Well, you

19:01

know, it's not that Patriot Mobile is

19:03

this incredibly powerful operation. It is,

19:05

at the end of the day, a local, self

19:07

phone provider. But I I think the

19:10

point is that the conservative movement

19:12

has these folks

19:14

like Glenn who are really, you

19:16

know, willing to put their money

19:18

and their businesses in

19:20

service of the values and the

19:22

politics that they feel most

19:24

strongly about. And I think one of the

19:26

things that something like Patriot Mobile and

19:29

folks like the Glen and Jenny show is that

19:31

or or at least what they're trying to prove is that

19:33

even as the state changes, demographically,

19:35

it doesn't actually mean

19:37

that they, you know, need to

19:39

change their values, that the state needs

19:42

to change the values that it's had before.

19:44

And I think what you're seeing

19:46

with this kind of very organized

19:48

movement is a

19:50

minority of of folks, but one

19:52

that's quite organized and really

19:54

animated in their values and

19:56

in their their politics it can

19:58

be quite effective, especially against a majority

20:01

that's much more fractured. And then it maybe

20:03

doesn't have the same kind of

20:05

alignment around similar goals. And so

20:07

you can imagine that this will play out

20:09

not just in these suburbs in

20:11

Texas, but, you know, in suburbs and

20:13

in areas all over the

20:15

country. Yeah. I mean, it

20:17

makes me think about one of the blind

20:19

spots of the demographic

20:21

destiny argument, the

20:24

idea that when these changes happen, conservatives

20:26

or Republicans who would have

20:28

been politically

20:28

hurt were just gonna sit there and not

20:31

do anything.

20:33

They are creating

20:34

the infrastructure to really

20:36

rest their community

20:38

back to where

20:40

they are and even willing to

20:42

change some rules to do that. Well, that's right.

20:44

And, you know,

20:44

I think the other thing that's important to point out and

20:46

something I, you know, is notable when you go to

20:48

Patriot Mobile is that the folks that work there

20:50

are quite diverse. It's not

20:52

a all white employee base. You have people of all

20:55

backgrounds who are employed by the

20:57

company visibly. And

20:59

you know, it's sort of this idea that I think is

21:01

overly simplistic that, you know, the

21:03

demographic change in Texas, which is largely

21:06

towards Hispanics, know that would mean

21:08

necessarily that Democrats would take power. But

21:10

I think we've seen it

21:12

especially what Glenn and folks like him

21:14

are are stressing is the

21:16

centrality of Christian values and of that

21:18

kind of commonality that actually does

21:20

cross racial lines in a place like

21:22

Texas. And I think -- Mhmm. that may be

21:24

core to the the future of this

21:26

kind of strategy of sort of reaching

21:28

across, you know, maybe racial divisions to

21:30

find common ground on

21:33

questions of values and how, you know, we should be

21:35

raising

21:35

our kids. So

21:42

grassroots Republicans, bonded

21:45

by faith and motivated by

21:47

fears of a changing country have mobilized

21:50

in local races to have

21:52

an outsized impact. But

21:55

this summer, they

21:56

may have gone too far. And

21:59

in doing

21:59

so, given democrats, senator,

22:02

can you Hold on a second instead.

22:04

Something of their own to mobilize

22:06

around.

22:06

Okay. Hi.

22:07

Hi. I heard some debate over who's

22:10

a feminist and who's not? Yeah. We're

22:12

debating who's the biggest feminist in

22:14

our office.

22:17

We'll

22:20

be right back.

22:24

Hi.

22:25

I'm Megan Lauren, the director of

22:27

photography at The New York Times. A

22:29

photograph

22:29

can do a lot of different things. It

22:32

can connect us. It can bring us to

22:34

places we've never been before. It

22:36

can capture a story in a

22:38

universal visual language. But

22:40

one thing that all these photographs have in common is that, you know,

22:42

they don't just come out of the ether. We spend a

22:44

lot of time anticipating news

22:47

stories, working with

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the best photographers across the

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globe. These are photographers who have

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spent years mastering their technical

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craft, developing their

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skills as

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visual chroniclers of our world.

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You know, getting certified as a scuba

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diver and learning how to shoot underwater to

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document climate change or tremendous

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on the slopes next to Olympic

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only because of New York Times subscribers. If you're not a

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subscriber yet, you can become one at n

23:20

y times dot com slash

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subscribe.

23:24

Here's

23:31

the thing. Republicans have

23:34

been really good at using the system

23:36

to their political advantage

23:38

and changing certain rules to

23:40

their own benefit. even when it's

23:42

out of step with the majority. The

23:44

biggest example of that

23:47

has to be the

23:49

stacking of the supreme court with

23:51

deeply conservative judges, and

23:53

the overturning of Roe v Wade.

23:56

Nearly six and ten

23:58

adults disapproved of the court's

24:00

decision. So the question

24:03

is, have conservatives gotten so

24:05

out of step with the majority that there

24:07

will be a backlash? one

24:09

that benefits Democrats and

24:12

finally gives the party a rallying

24:14

issue of their own. Thank you so

24:16

much for taking some time out. Senator Kirsten

24:19

Gillibrand has been sounding the alarm on

24:21

Row for years. An issue

24:23

that most of the party largely

24:25

ignored while Rohr was still in place.

24:28

Now that it's been

24:30

overturned, I wanted to ask

24:32

her, can democrats catch

24:34

up? to years of Republican unity?

24:36

And is their biggest problem in

24:38

how they delivered their message?

24:41

Or is it a message itself?

24:43

I have I read in a

24:46

story that you said of the fundraiser that

24:48

Democrats are terrible in messaging. It's

24:50

just the fact. I saw

24:53

this week governor Gavin Newsom of California

24:55

kind of repeat a similar thing where he said

24:57

Democrats have a messaging problem.

24:59

I wanted to just pose that to you directly.

25:01

Is that how you feel? Democrats have

25:03

a messaging problem. What does that mean?

25:05

So I don't remember the context

25:07

of what I was talking about,

25:09

but I don't

25:10

think it's necessarily true. I

25:13

think Democrats

25:13

certainly during campaigns are

25:15

very

25:15

good about talking about their

25:18

values and what they want

25:20

to accomplish and who they wanna help and what they're willing

25:22

to fight for. I think

25:23

there's not the same message

25:26

discipline, I guess,

25:27

as probably more precise way to say it.

25:30

Republicans have a brand almost, whereas

25:32

Democrats have so many issues we care

25:34

about. It's just such a big agenda.

25:36

And so

25:37

candidates don't talk about the same stuff all the time. They

25:40

talk about different things. And

25:42

so

25:42

it's not really that our messaging's bad.

25:44

It's that we're not all on the same

25:46

song sheet. So you don't

25:47

have the brand management in the way

25:49

I think the Republicans have done.

25:52

Mhmm. But I think it's changing, and I

25:54

think that this issue particularly

25:56

about the right to privacy and

25:58

how this has been so deeply

25:59

undermined is something that

26:02

resonates across

26:03

districts and across states. Yeah.

26:05

And I I wanna get to how it's changing, but I think I

26:07

wanna look back a little more. Can you give

26:09

me an example of a time when you thought

26:11

that message discipline has come

26:13

to hurt Democrats? Howard Bauchner:

26:15

No, there are

26:16

examples. There's examples when people,

26:19

the way they talk about

26:20

an issue isn't clear.

26:22

And so it's

26:22

easy for Republicans

26:25

to miss what's

26:27

the

26:27

word? To mislead people about what

26:29

people mean. So Let's

26:31

talk about public safety. It's just the easiest

26:34

one. Sure. You know, if you say defund

26:36

the police, that scares the hell out

26:38

of millions of people because they don't know what

26:40

they meant. whereas many people

26:42

meant things like fund

26:44

mental health, fund

26:46

social services, fund more social

26:48

workers. things which we agree. So it just it

26:50

didn't make sense in terms of the words chosen.

26:53

And so when we're

26:54

talking about things that all

26:56

agree on, like, the right to privacy and

26:58

the right to access

27:00

to healthcare and the right to bodily autonomy.

27:02

We

27:02

all understand the words we're using and it

27:05

all makes sense. sense? Yeah. I mean, I

27:06

feel like I hear about messaging a lot, but I

27:08

also wanna pull on the idea of messaging

27:11

in general. I mean, what is giving you the

27:13

confidence that's just just a matter getting

27:15

Democrats on one of the corps rather

27:17

than there's a dislike of the message in general.

27:19

I mean, I think some people would say that even

27:21

to use that defund the police example,

27:24

majority of Americans just

27:26

weren't at the point

27:28

that maybe some Democrats were.

27:30

Also, thinking about the issues of schools

27:32

and coronavirus. You know, Republicans have

27:34

been able to seize on the

27:36

idea that democrats went too far in

27:38

terms of masking, and

27:40

making issues like parental rights rise to the

27:43

top of voters' concerns. Was

27:45

that a messaging problem for

27:47

democrats or was it a substance issue

27:50

that people didn't like the

27:52

substance of what democrats were pitching

27:54

in terms of masking and

27:56

in schools? So

27:59

I

27:59

think Republicans took

28:02

this issue, again, misled

28:04

and lied. and created massive

28:06

division in the country over it.

28:08

Parents want kids to be safe.

28:10

Parents want kids to be

28:12

in school. And I think the Republicans just took

28:14

advantage of people's anger and

28:16

frustration with the length of the COVID

28:18

pandemic. to

28:20

say, you're telling us what to do as

28:22

opposed to, no, we're protecting the lives of

28:24

you and your families. And

28:27

I think real corruption

28:29

within the Republican Party is

28:31

to create these divisive issues and

28:33

rile parents up. They

28:35

stand for burning books. they

28:37

stand for extremely

28:42

misrepresenting views on things

28:44

that are just not accurate.

28:47

and they went

28:49

into

28:50

create arguments that

28:54

just aren't true.

28:54

I mean, it's just not true. And that

28:56

division they created within the school

28:58

system was just intended

29:00

to make people be

29:02

misled and not understand what was going

29:04

on. Okay. So

29:05

I I feel like if I hear you correctly.

29:07

So Jillibrand says the democrats

29:10

problem. is not a failure of the party's

29:12

own messaging. Rather,

29:14

it's

29:14

what she calls the corruption

29:16

of Republicans. It's a it's

29:19

a But when it comes

29:19

to abortion, Democrats

29:21

have, at times, tried

29:24

to make protecting Roe

29:26

a priority. long

29:27

before it was overturned. But it

29:29

wasn't a unified effort, and

29:32

voters didn't really respond.

29:35

And I wanted to know if she thought that

29:37

actually contributed to Roe

29:39

being overturned. Well,

29:41

I

29:41

can tell you what it was like during

29:43

the Kavanaugh

29:44

hearings. we were

29:46

just speaking every day

29:48

in front of the supreme court

29:50

trying to be heard on this issue, raising

29:52

this red flag of this is so

29:54

bad that this president is putting in

29:56

place someone specifically

29:57

to overturn Roe. I mean,

29:59

we were I can't say that people didn't believe us,

30:02

but they certainly weren't as worried as

30:04

the advocates were. And Why

30:06

do you think?

30:07

because they're not paying attention to what's happening in the

30:10

red states. We are. We're

30:12

watching the pain and the horror

30:14

that these families are having to

30:16

face and not all of our

30:18

colleagues are recognizing this as the

30:20

red flag that is. I think,

30:22

as Ted, It's an issue of

30:24

men and women. I don't know that

30:26

our male colleagues fully

30:28

understand what it

30:28

would be like.

30:30

to not have a right

30:32

to privacy. Like, this is

30:35

crazy. Like, you can't fully

30:37

absorb what it would be like that you don't have

30:39

the right to privacy in the mail, you don't

30:41

have the right to privacy in your phone calls,

30:43

your discussions with doctors, your

30:46

emails, That's what's happening in these

30:48

red states to implement the dov's

30:51

decision.

30:51

It's framing

30:53

and people just

30:55

weren't

30:55

paying attention, and I think it's because women

30:57

in this country still don't have a great tool

30:59

of power. And it's not just that

31:01

women, of course, will care more than men

31:04

It's that if we don't

31:06

care, then no one seems to care. So

31:08

it's it's just There's We don't

31:11

have quality, and we don't have full representation in

31:13

the country. And so these issues

31:15

that might affect women most

31:17

deeply still get ignored.

31:19

I

31:19

guess I'm saying, I I don't wanna be dismissive of

31:22

that stuff. I I'm really asking about how you

31:24

balance that moral clarity,

31:26

that need for democrats to speak up on

31:28

that issue. with the political

31:30

reality of deeply ingrained

31:32

sexism, you know, of deeply ingrained

31:34

misogyny. How can

31:36

Democrats lead on those

31:38

issues, while at the same time

31:41

messaging correctly to those

31:43

crucial voting blocks that they

31:45

need. Mhmm.

31:45

Well, on this issue, people

31:47

are following the issue. So,

31:49

for example, you look

31:50

at what happened in Kansas.

31:53

an increase in voter registration or

31:55

women registered to vote then by

31:57

seventy percent, I think. And then

32:00

we were able to defeat that measure.

32:02

You look at the special elections we've

32:04

been having, one in upstate New York,

32:06

before the jobs decision came down,

32:09

we'd if we

32:10

could hold that seat after we won.

32:12

That's happening

32:12

all across the country. So

32:15

people are very aware of this issue

32:17

and they are hearing the message

32:19

clearly that these rights are

32:21

being destroyed,

32:22

and it it is undermining basic

32:24

life liberty and pursuit of happiness for

32:26

all women

32:26

for forty years. But it seemed like that

32:28

awareness of right now is coming after that

32:31

decision of Dobbs -- Right. --

32:33

which was kind of the

32:35

worst nightmare. Yeah. How do you wrestle those

32:37

two things that the energy of right now

32:39

is only happening because of the

32:41

fall of row?

32:42

Right. So I think it's because

32:44

up until now, a lot of people just

32:46

thought it would never happen. So they

32:48

didn't believe they weren't

32:50

taking to heart what was happening in

32:52

red states. And now

32:55

they realize that it's

32:57

is happening and they have to take it

32:59

seriously. So people

33:01

are becoming

33:01

more aware of this

33:04

issue. Mhmm. What's your

33:06

confidence level

33:06

that Democrats can make up some

33:08

of these

33:08

holes that they're in, particularly

33:11

around this issue considering

33:13

that renewed energy?

33:15

Howard Bauchner: So,

33:18

obviously, there's normal dynamics in midterm

33:21

elections. Usually, the party that the president

33:23

is from does poorly. This

33:25

is an existential threat

33:27

to democracy and equality, so

33:29

it rises to a level that's

33:32

bigger than any one of us or any one candidate or

33:34

even Democratic politics. I

33:36

think it's a reflection

33:38

of our democracy being broken.

33:41

because these justices were chosen

33:43

from a list created by a bunch

33:45

of lawyers in New York City who

33:47

had a religious agenda. That

33:50

undermines the whole

33:52

framework of our constitution, freedom

33:54

of speech, freedom of religion, So

33:56

I think what's happening now is dead, is

33:58

not about messaging and it is

33:59

not about democratic politics.

34:02

It's literally taking away full

34:04

citizenship rights for fifty percent of Americans. That's

34:06

why it's so big. And that's why I think

34:08

it's breaking through as something that

34:10

people are not gonna tolerate

34:13

it's structurally breaking our

34:16

democracy for a

34:18

religious agenda by just a

34:20

bunch of really wealthy people that

34:22

took a president who didn't know much about much and said, we'll

34:24

support you if you take this

34:26

list of justices. And these justices then

34:28

went to their hearings and said,

34:32

oh, no. precedent should be regarded, it should be

34:34

protected, you know, all

34:36

their language was

34:37

so specific to lead

34:39

the Susan Collins' and

34:41

and others of the world to say, they're not gonna

34:44

undermine Roe. They would never change the

34:46

country in that way, and they did.

34:48

And their intention is to

34:50

keep going. The worst thing about Clarence Thomas is that

34:52

he says he wants to now apply

34:54

this to LGBTQ

34:56

quality. He wants to private to,

34:58

like, blasting your bedroom,

35:00

like he's bonkers. And you

35:02

just add to Lindsey Graham, you know,

35:04

the fact that he now wants to

35:07

make a federal ban on

35:09

access to reproductive which total BS because this Republican

35:11

party has always said we

35:13

believe in states

35:16

right. and these red, red states wanna have their laws the way they are and you can't tell

35:18

us what to do. Well, you know what? The blue,

35:20

blue states do not wanna do the way you

35:22

do these things and to have

35:25

federal ban, again, is going

35:28

farther

35:28

farther backwards. And and

35:30

and shining discrimination. It's

35:33

not okay. But

35:33

considering the realities that we're

35:36

currently in and that Republicans, at least

35:38

on the grassroots side, are openly

35:40

admitting what their next

35:42

targets are, What

35:43

is the democratic recourse? I get the kind of

35:45

intellectual, like, hypocrisy that you're identified.

35:47

Only democratic recourse. is

35:50

winning these elections. Mhmm. Period. What does that mean winning? Like, what

35:52

is the bar for winning? You have to have

35:54

a majority. You

35:55

have to have a set of majority to

35:57

stop these crazy judges

36:00

from being elevated and not having Mitch McConnell get to

36:02

steal more supreme court justices, he

36:04

cannot be in charge of the senate, and

36:06

you cannot lose the house.

36:08

And if you do lose the house, you better lose it by the smallest margin possible because

36:11

you need to govern on a

36:13

bipartisan basis. So that's

36:16

what it means. And if people don't realize that,

36:18

then we are screwed. I

36:20

hear a lot of Democrats

36:21

talking about the codification of

36:23

Roe v Wade. as

36:24

a as a goal coming from this midterms. I wanted to

36:27

ask you about that. Is it fair to say

36:29

that that is the democratic recourse

36:32

that president and most congressional democrats have identified? Codifying

36:35

Roe?

36:35

Mhmm. Well, on the senate

36:37

side, you can codify Roe with

36:39

a Democratic only

36:42

vote. you'd have to amend or bridge the filibuster. Yeah.

36:44

And if we did have two more Democrats,

36:46

you would have enough people

36:49

to say, we will

36:51

amend the filibuster for civil rights issues.

36:53

You could do it for just those type of issues,

36:55

or it could do for all issues. But you'd

36:58

have to be able to pass that on the house side

37:00

too. So it depends.

37:02

Like, what is our majority in the house? Do we

37:04

have a majority or do we have a

37:06

thin minority? It matters. It

37:08

absolutely matters because if you can't pass it in the house, it

37:10

can't become a law. Yeah. So,

37:11

I mean, as you mentioned, there are those laws that

37:13

really govern midterms. You know, the incumbent

37:16

parties usually suffer losses. What

37:18

I hear you saying, I think what

37:19

we both intuitively

37:20

know, is that to codify something like Rovi

37:22

Way, democrats need to not only keep the

37:24

house and keep this in it, but

37:25

expand those majorities. They have to do something

37:28

frankly unprecedented

37:30

than what parties have done in midterms before. Is that fair?

37:33

Yeah. They

37:34

do. They have

37:34

to work really, really hard. and

37:37

everybody who's listening to this podcast

37:39

who cares about these issues needs to fight

37:41

harder. I mean, make phone calls for the

37:44

Pennsylvania senate race. Make phone

37:46

calls for any candidate that you like in your state or in your

37:48

community, go door to door, send

37:50

resources, do what you can,

37:52

elevate their voices. It

37:54

all matters.

37:55

Mhmm. I think both agree to such renewed

37:58

enthusiasm and interest on the national level.

38:00

We're seeing Democrats really

38:02

outpaced Republicans. in terms of

38:04

fundraising and interest on those House and

38:06

Senate races on the lot of state ride

38:08

races. I know there has

38:09

been a consistent criticism of

38:11

Democrats they haven't focused enough on local races. Do you think

38:13

that that energy has shifted our

38:16

Democrats' infrastructure

38:17

now putting adequate attention

38:19

on local races? I

38:21

think we're getting much better at it. And I also think,

38:23

you know, a lot of the

38:26

Republican, you know, they had a number

38:28

of billionaires just funneling

38:30

money into this very right

38:32

wing agenda of taking away reproductive

38:34

freedom, taking away LGBT queue

38:36

quality, literally going after this right wing

38:38

religious agenda. and doing it

38:40

on a local level.

38:42

And

38:42

I think that constant

38:44

spending did have an impact.

38:46

And so I think Democrats fully understand what's at risk and

38:49

what's at stake. And I think people

38:51

like Stacey Abrams, for example, just said, I'm

38:53

gonna deal with Georgia voter

38:56

vote. I'm gonna make sure we really register

38:58

to vote. People feel engaged.

39:00

People feel valued. People feel

39:03

that their voice matters, that's really good

39:05

democracy building. So we have

39:07

to keep doing the good things. Like, we have

39:09

to keep focusing on

39:12

voting, getting people registered,

39:14

strengthening our voting rights is why,

39:16

you know, if we ever did amend or bridge the

39:18

filibuster, the first thing we'd vote was

39:20

to guarantee voting rights that are being reduced and

39:23

eroded in in red states across

39:25

the country. So I think we're quite

39:27

aware of what we're up

39:30

against. but it's a lot of money politics extremely

39:32

corrupting and we have to fight against

39:34

it. And the way we fight against

39:37

it is by getting people to

39:40

vote and getting people to understand what's at

39:42

stake

39:42

and trying to strengthen the democracy.

39:44

Can Democrats make up the gap without

39:46

ending the filibuster without ending Jerry

39:48

Mann during without changing those kind of rules. It feels like because of,

39:50

you know, how Republicans have kind of outpaced

39:52

Democrats in some of these local races,

39:56

it

39:56

can sometimes feel like the solutions being presented for midterms

39:58

are inadequate that, like, democrats

40:00

had ten dollars taken away from them and

40:02

this midterms may give them back five. mean,

40:06

how does that gap get made up without those

40:08

structural rules? You

40:10

can do it through

40:10

hard work, and I think making

40:12

sure we organize and get people

40:15

to vote just the common sense of what's

40:17

happening in this moment, there are allies. I

40:19

mean, we had a good decision out

40:21

of Indiana. We had a great vote

40:23

out of Kansas. like,

40:25

these are different states that are

40:28

quite red and purple that are

40:30

doing the right thing in this moment

40:32

because it's so shockingly big and

40:34

very important.

40:34

very important So I'm

40:35

optimistic. I'm not pessimistic. I I

40:38

believe in our democracy. I

40:40

believe that, like, actually doing the hard work

40:42

of registering people to vote and getting

40:44

them to vote is a

40:46

solution. I mean, people are

40:48

frenetic over this issue. And they're

40:50

frenetic in red places and blue places.

40:52

Like, it's It's hard to

40:54

put yourself in somebody else's

40:56

shoes,

40:56

but denying basic bodily

40:59

autonomy is really

41:01

stark. it's something that it's hard

41:03

to imagine

41:03

for this generation because we've

41:06

never been under

41:08

that. So I think it

41:10

matters. Thank you.

41:10

I'm I haven't know for my producers

41:13

to ask about there was a buzz that was happening.

41:14

Yeah. It's just the vote being

41:16

called. I gotta go vote

41:17

Oh, okay. Okay. That makes the perfect philosophy. This means

41:19

I gotta go to the Yeah. That bugs

41:21

the bugs for me and

41:24

for you. I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. This is Ted.

41:26

Take

41:26

care.

41:33

What I hear

41:33

from senator Jillibrand and

41:36

many prominent Democrats is that

41:38

the party is hoping that backlash

41:41

to overturn and grow. has given

41:43

them the opportunity to use the Republican blueprint

41:46

and energize their own

41:48

grass roots. But

41:50

the Republican blueprint isn't

41:53

just reactive. It's proactive.

41:55

From Patriot Mobile's work in

41:57

the Texas suburb, all the

42:00

way to the supreme

42:02

court. What Republicans have

42:04

really done is craft a

42:06

political strategy

42:08

that anticipated the country's changes and got ahead of

42:10

them. So much so

42:12

that it's raised the bar

42:14

for Democrats in these

42:16

midterm elections and beyond.

42:20

Now, democrats have to

42:22

do more than just

42:24

defy expectations. They

42:26

have to defy political gravity.

42:32

Next time,

42:32

on the run up. My campaign

42:34

manager and I wrote a playbook that

42:36

lays out

42:37

what it takes, but what is

42:39

so important is that people remember that while

42:41

we're writing our playbook the other side

42:43

is writing their playbook. We talked

42:45

to the woman whose vision for how

42:47

to do that will be

42:49

tested in November.

42:51

The

43:16

run

43:16

up is reported by me, astead Herndon,

43:18

and produced by a Lisa

43:20

Gutierrez and Caitlin O'Keefe.

43:24

It's

43:24

edited by Frannie Carthoff, Lewisa

43:27

Anderson, and Lisa Tobey.

43:29

With original music,

43:32

by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and

43:35

Aliciaba YouTube. It was

43:37

MiX by Dan Powell and

43:39

fact checked by Caitlin