0:02

IT IS ELECTION DAY IN GEORGIA

0:05

AND THE STAKES ARE HIGH

0:06

TONIGHT. GEORGIA REMAINS AT THE

0:08

center of the American political universe. Why?

0:10

It's easy to forget this. But

0:12

pretty much everything about our current

0:14

political reality comes back

0:17

to George

0:17

CBS News projects Joe Biden has

0:19

one Georgia flipping.

0:21

After the twenty twenty election

0:22

We saw a shift of power in

0:25

the US senate

0:25

Democrats flipped the state. This is

0:28

a huge victory for the Democrats a

0:30

state they've long eyed, like

0:32

a ten year long project to flip

0:34

this red state AND GABE THE PARTY

0:36

NEW HOPE FOR THE FUTURE

0:39

AS THE STORY GOES.

0:40

ONE NAME, ONE PERSON WHO ALMOST EVERYBODY

0:43

AGREES HAS BEEN OUTFRONT LEADING THE

0:45

CHARGE TO MAKE GEORGIA INTO THE SWING

0:47

STATE IT IS TONIGHT.

0:48

THE REASON GEORGIA FLT.

0:50

AND THAT PERSON IS STACI ABRA.

0:52

SHE'S STACI ABRA. And

0:54

the playbook she developed for the state.

0:56

released the playbook laying out the path

0:59

to democratic victory here and across

1:01

the country. Abrams as the keys are spending

1:03

money, tens of millions, and

1:06

convincing voters to show up.

1:07

A playbook that many Democrats

1:10

saw as the antidote to Republican

1:12

grassroots dominance. She is a star

1:15

at the Democratic Party whose get out the vote

1:17

efforts have transformed the state of Georgia.

1:19

It cemented her role as a national

1:21

celebrity in politics and

1:23

a political powerhouse. What

1:26

an honor to have no peace prize

1:28

nominee Stacy Abrams

1:30

on the show. And

1:33

pop culture, every time I see you,

1:35

I feel like you are doing more and more

1:37

things.

1:37

Your first novel, listen, you'd written a bunch of

1:40

romance novels under different name.

1:42

I've written Abrahamism.

1:43

She even got cast.

1:46

As the president of United Earth

1:48

on Star Trek. United

1:49

Earth is ready right now.

1:51

to rejoin the Federation.

1:52

Okay.

1:53

Stacey Abrams is a clown.

1:56

That's celebrities. And she

1:58

should just go back to writing romance now. You

2:00

see, Stacey Abrams is gone. She

2:02

is toast. Has also made her a

2:04

target of Republicans. She's actually

2:06

never been a great candidate. She only won a

2:08

state house seat that wasn't largely contested.

2:11

She didn't win in twenty eighteen. Who say

2:13

even though Georgia flipped, she's

2:15

a losing candidate. and

2:17

her playbook has gotten more credit

2:19

than it deserves.

2:22

But let me tell you something. Behind

2:25

closed doors, in Georgia

2:27

and in Washington.

2:30

There are Democrats who increasingly

2:32

whisper the same thing.

2:35

and question her playbook as

2:37

a winning strategy for the party.

2:41

Today, the

2:43

Stacey Abrams playbook and

2:46

why the Georgia governor's race

2:48

has more at stake for democrats than

2:51

a single elected office.

2:55

From The New York Times, I'm

2:57

a stud Herndon. This

3:00

is the run up.

3:05

Hello?

3:07

Hi. Can you hear me? I can. Oh,

3:10

thank you so much for for joining us.

3:12

Stacey Abrams, I appreciate your time. Absolutely.

3:14

So about a week

3:16

ago, I called Stacey Abrams.

3:19

The Democratic nominee for governor in

3:21

Georgia. The biggest reason that But we started

3:23

with the playbook itself. And

3:25

what we actually mean when

3:27

we talk about what Abrams did in Georgia

3:29

and the lead up to twenty twenty. Georgia

3:31

was for a very long time not

3:33

just a polarized state, but it was

3:36

very black and white. There was very little

3:38

intention in engaging

3:41

black voters beyond those

3:43

who always showed up. There

3:44

was very little attention other than

3:46

presidential years and talking to young

3:48

people. There had been almost no investment

3:51

in other communities color

3:53

and low propensity voters, voters

3:55

who weren't regular voters, were

3:57

not included in outreach.

4:00

we basically had persuasion voters

4:02

which were considered white

4:04

swing voters or

4:05

you had turnout voters which were black people.

4:08

what

4:08

that means, and I know you understand as I said, but

4:10

for

4:10

for your listener. What

4:11

that means is we don't have to talk to you until

4:13

the very last minute. Per

4:15

swage and target means you get information

4:17

and detention

4:18

throughout the entire campaign. And

4:20

the reality is black voters need persuasion

4:22

as well. We had an entire

4:25

swaths of black voters who at first

4:27

to be persuaded to register and then be

4:29

persuaded that voting could change

4:31

things. We have to do the same with

4:33

AAPI and Latino communities and Native American

4:36

communities. And with young people, we had to

4:38

connect the dots so they understood what

4:40

was at stake and why their voices

4:42

mattered. Those

4:43

are all organizing responsibilities.

4:46

And

4:46

I think sometimes people here organizing and it

4:48

becomes a reductive idea

4:50

But it's truly the fundamental work of

4:52

democracy, getting people to believe in their

4:54

political power by explaining how

4:57

their power can translate into outcomes.

4:59

I

4:59

totally agree about organizing being kind

5:01

of seen reductively. I wanted to pull on that.

5:04

How would you rank the organizing that

5:06

you all did and lead up to twenty

5:08

twenty against other factors

5:10

that mattered in that year too,

5:12

moderate voters who were turned off

5:14

from Donald Trump or Republicans who

5:16

didn't come out to the polls that November

5:19

at all. How much did your work

5:22

matter against those other factors in terms of

5:24

ranking the order importance of what made

5:26

Georgia flip?

5:27

It's pulling at threads that unravel

5:29

the entire tapestry if

5:31

you think only one thread matters.

5:34

You don't have a

5:36

twelve thousand vote margin

5:38

if black and brown people aren't

5:40

engaged. No matter how many voters

5:42

who voted for Trump in sixteen, and

5:44

voted for Biden in twenty. No matter how

5:46

many of those voters shift, if you

5:48

don't have the lift that

5:50

comes from engaging low prepared

5:53

to the voters, engaging voters who

5:55

had never been considered part of

5:57

the electorate, who never gotten the resources necessary

5:59

to

5:59

be part of the electorate. you're

6:02

trying to figure out who comprises that last

6:04

twelve thousand. Well, my my pushback is not

6:06

that your question isn't legitimate, but

6:08

the question presumes that there was

6:10

one final, you know, explosion

6:12

of reality where

6:14

in

6:14

truth it was a

6:16

confluence of different pieces, but

6:19

the heft of which, the difference

6:21

between a twenty sixteen and a

6:23

twenty twenty was the organizing of

6:25

voters who had not been a part of the narrative.

6:27

Mhmm. I guess I'm asking because for a lot of

6:29

Democrats, Georgia, especially after

6:31

twenty twenty has been seen as this replicable

6:33

playbook and has been a sign of hope

6:35

for the party in the landscape where

6:37

there's not many of those signs. I'm

6:40

wondering, do you see what

6:42

the national narrative has taken from Georgia

6:44

as that confluence of factors

6:47

you're talking about? Because I feel like I hear

6:49

just organizing led to the results.

6:51

Is the narrative too simple?

6:52

The narratives is too simple and it's

6:55

too systematic.

6:57

What do you mean? It is a Polaroid instead

6:59

of a documentary. Can

7:02

you say can you say more there?

7:03

So, you know, if you take a polaroid, it's a

7:06

snapshot of an instant and you get it right now.

7:08

and it's very gratified. But the documentary

7:10

is about how you get there and it tells you all

7:12

the pieces that came into being to

7:14

make it so.

7:15

And

7:16

winning elections in Georgia,

7:19

the pieces that had to come together had to

7:21

come together over time. They had to

7:23

be sustained over time. This

7:26

wasn't this moment and this

7:28

flashpoint, this was an

7:30

operational initiative that took almost

7:32

a decade to execute. And so

7:34

when you get to twenty twenty, the

7:36

confluence of events you

7:38

had to navigate voter suppression

7:40

and you had to convince voters

7:43

who were not necessarily moderate

7:45

voters. You had to convince conservative

7:47

voters who'd

7:49

shared a certain value system

7:51

and found that their value system ran

7:54

afoul of who was representing it. And

7:56

so, yes, we pulled some of those voters over,

7:58

but I think sometimes it is overstated

7:59

how many of those voters

8:02

actually swung in that year

8:04

versus the migration that

8:06

we've been able to create over

8:08

the last decade. And

8:09

again, it's very easy to So Abrams

8:11

and I are agreeing. that the

8:13

national narrative around what happened in

8:15

twenty twenty, and

8:16

the role that the Abrams playbook had in

8:19

that is

8:19

too simplistic. But

8:21

we differ on why it's

8:23

too simplistic. What I'm

8:25

saying at the same time.

8:26

Is that this is a narrative that is often

8:28

reduced to

8:29

one of Abrams and organizing and

8:32

doesn't fully account for

8:34

what else was going on at the time.

8:36

In terms of moderate swing

8:38

voters, turned off by Trump

8:40

and moving towards Democrats.

8:43

Abrams downplays the significance of

8:45

those swing voters. and

8:47

instead focuses

8:48

on the years of organizing

8:51

that she says laid the groundwork

8:53

to make that flip even possible

8:55

in twenty twenty. things I think And

8:56

that's about to be tested because

8:59

this year.

9:00

Trump is not in office. In

9:02

Abrams' opponent,

9:04

governor Brian Kemp, was one of

9:06

the few Republicans to

9:08

stand up against Trump's pressure campaign

9:11

to overturn election results.

9:13

Now, wanted to ask you about your Republican

9:15

opponent, Governor Brian Kemp, you have,

9:17

particularly in that first race,

9:19

characterized him as a real threat to

9:21

democracy, through his actions as both

9:23

secretary of state and now in the governor's

9:25

office, how do you square that with his

9:27

actions he took in twenty twenty to

9:29

stand up against president Trump in his

9:31

efforts to steal the election. He didn't

9:32

commit treason.

9:33

Every

9:34

other governor also managed to not

9:36

commit treason. We are

9:38

lionizing someone because he did what

9:40

every other governor in American history

9:42

has done. That's

9:44

it. But not everything that a Republican party

9:46

has done. I

9:47

mean, in in that same moment. But

9:49

every Democratic governor in America did

9:51

not commit treason that time.

9:53

Every

9:53

Democratic governor, every Republican governor

9:55

did not commit treason. I

9:57

don't deny that it's a good

9:59

thing, but

9:59

it was also his job. And

10:01

so I

10:02

I give him no credit because

10:04

not committing treason should not

10:06

be the benchmark for

10:07

leadership in democracy. I also wanted to

10:10

ask about another So if Abrams is right

10:12

in her view, about what's

10:14

decisive in these elections. Then

10:16

she'll need to turn out a lot of the

10:18

voters who are at the center of her

10:20

playbook. What was coming out? Which

10:21

includes young people. communities

10:22

of color, and specifically

10:24

black men. But

10:26

right

10:27

now, according to polling

10:30

and recent

10:30

reporting from my colleagues,

10:32

She's actually struggling there too.

10:35

Our paper

10:35

has recently reported on a potential challenge

10:38

for you among black men.

10:39

The the idea in that story was

10:42

that a meaningful percentage of them may not show

10:44

up for you and that your campaign has now

10:46

put a focus on them in

10:48

doing that type of outreach. Why do

10:50

you think that

10:50

has had to become a focus of your campaign? Why

10:53

have you all struggled there? We have not struggled.

10:55

Your story

10:55

was wrong, and I'm gonna say that

10:57

very directly because In twenty

10:59

eighteen, I had the very same

11:01

conversations. In

11:02

twenty eighteen, I was castigated in

11:05

Georgia because I was having conversations with

11:07

communities that were marginalized and disadvantaged. And

11:09

in twenty twenty two, I did the exact

11:11

same thing because I know

11:13

that these are persuasion voters, but I'm

11:15

not persuading them not to vote for a Republican.

11:17

I am persuading them that voting

11:20

matters and that they can trust a

11:22

political leadership that they have

11:24

really never seen deliver for

11:26

them. And to that end, I am having

11:28

explicit conversations with black men

11:30

because black men are a large

11:32

portion of our electorate. and thus

11:34

they deserve the kind of attention that

11:36

Brian Kemp is giving to farmers.

11:37

There is not a single story in the New

11:40

York Times about how Brian Kemp is

11:42

going after the farming community. And

11:44

does that mean he's struggling with farmers because he

11:46

doesn't have every farmer voting for

11:48

him? Why then am I

11:50

subject to this notion that because

11:52

I'm talking to black men to

11:54

engage them, to make certain that they know

11:56

and can they see that I was expect

11:58

them that this is somehow a

11:59

sign of trouble. It is a sign of

12:02

reality that every election you

12:04

have to go to the voters that you need and

12:06

ask them for help. Our

12:08

campaign has largely and long

12:10

standingly invested in the black community.

12:12

We spend money. We hire from

12:14

within. We pay assiduous

12:16

attention. much attention that the New York Times

12:18

decided that it must be a sign of weakness

12:20

as opposed to a campaign

12:23

strategy that you win by getting voters to

12:25

turn out for you, and I mean

12:26

All voters including black men, I

12:29

want black men to vote for me. I know that

12:31

black men have the deepest

12:33

rationale for not being engaged in

12:36

politics And it is disingenuous for me

12:38

to pretend that that's not true. And more

12:40

importantly, for me not to articulate

12:42

why I am different. And

12:43

that's what these conversations are about.

12:45

Mhmm. One of

12:46

the reason I wanted to call you was because I

12:49

feel like when I talk to

12:51

democrats, there's

12:51

sometimes not an understanding

12:54

of the structural challenges that they

12:56

face. Yes. The

12:58

depths in state legislatures that

13:00

they face. Yes. In the courts,

13:01

in gerry bantering. in

13:04

a lot of structural

13:06

political fronts. And

13:07

when I pose those questions to Democrats often,

13:09

a lot of times they point

13:12

to you

13:12

and Georgia as

13:15

the way to overcome those

13:17

barriers. I mean, I

13:18

have you here.

13:20

Do you think that you and Georgia

13:22

are a response to

13:24

those holes that Democrats are in?

13:26

We

13:26

are absolutely one

13:28

of the roadmaps, but what

13:29

is so important is that people

13:31

remember that while we're writing our playbook, the

13:33

other side is writing their playbook.

13:35

What's happening in the Supreme Court

13:37

just this term they are taking

13:39

up a case that will essentially eviscerate

13:41

voting rights at those state

13:43

level for a generation. The

13:45

Supreme Court is about

13:46

to reduce every election decision

13:49

going forward to the state

13:51

legislature. That also

13:52

means that we will have Republicans and

13:54

they are already talking about it.

13:56

in

13:56

states like Georgia where the

13:58

number of electoral college votes change

14:01

the outcome in ways they didn't like,

14:03

they will shift from a winner take all

14:05

system that most states use to

14:07

the system that is used by Maine and

14:09

Nebraska where we will go to a

14:11

congressional district. And so you talked

14:13

about gerrymandering. because of the extreme gerrymanders

14:15

that were not only done in

14:17

twenty twenty one, but permitted by a supreme

14:19

court that said, well, we can't do it because it's too

14:21

close to the election. Those get

14:23

solidified in twenty three

14:24

and Democrats won't win another

14:27

presidential election if instead of

14:29

Georgia delivering sixteen electoral

14:31

college votes We only deliver five because

14:33

they've gerrymandered our congressional districts,

14:35

so we only have five democratic districts

14:37

and the rest of the votes go. and the same

14:39

things that would happen across the country

14:41

where Democrats lose

14:42

governorships. Yeah, I I agree with you there.

14:44

I'm saying how does organizing overcome that?

14:46

But here's

14:46

what I'm saying. So part of how I

14:49

organize is that we test to talk

14:51

about what's to come. It is

14:53

uncomfortable. It is awkward. It gets

14:55

people angry at you. But we

14:57

have to discuss it. Organizing is not this

14:59

esoteric

15:00

distance event. It is having

15:03

conversations about the consequences

15:05

of action. There is nothing

15:07

permanent about our civil liberties or our civil

15:09

rights in this country. And so,

15:11

yes, I think that it is

15:13

critical that Georgia be

15:15

emblematic both in the sense of

15:17

urgency because we are going to be ground

15:19

zero for what can go horribly wrong

15:21

or we can be a beacon of light for what can go

15:23

horribly right. And what's

15:25

happening in the next thirty six days is

15:27

deciding which direction we head in. Mhmm.

15:29

the In that

15:30

view, I wanna turn to now because it seems like

15:32

in part because of twenty twenty, you

15:35

are an unique gubernatorial

15:37

candidate. I mean, you're frankly much more

15:39

famous than the other governor candidates

15:41

on the slate across the country. I

15:43

mean, you you are you are

15:45

president of United Earth via

15:47

Star Trek. I wonder as you

15:49

run-in this race now. How has

15:51

that national name

15:52

recognition and celebrity impacted

15:55

your statewide race this time.

15:57

It seems your this is a different version or

15:59

at least a more well known version of Stacey

16:01

Abrams running this time around.

16:02

Howard Bauchner: When

16:03

I ran in twenty eighteen, I had

16:05

very identical goals.

16:08

Education, housing,

16:09

healthcare, and making certain people could

16:11

have economic security.

16:13

I worked well within our party. I built

16:16

party capacity. I worked across

16:18

the aisle.

16:18

and I ran a very strong

16:20

race that surprised a lot of

16:22

people and I got

16:24

really close. But the moment

16:27

after that, I became an avatar for a

16:29

number of things. I will be the

16:31

first black woman to become governor

16:33

should I be elected. And

16:35

for some, that is a moment of

16:37

celebration. And for others,

16:39

it is a moment of fear. Nothing

16:42

I've wanted. Nothing I've suggested

16:44

has changed. I'm not a different

16:46

person in terms of my political philosophy

16:49

or my policy prescriptions, but what

16:51

has changed is that it could actually

16:53

work. Because in twenty twenty and twenty

16:55

twenty one, the architecture that I

16:57

built in twenty eighteen actually

16:59

helped yield a result

17:01

And so one of the differences between eighteen

17:03

and twenty two is that

17:05

people have poured into me their hopes

17:07

or their anger. in ways that they

17:09

didn't in twenty eighteen. And

17:12

and

17:12

that's hard because I've become

17:15

emblematic of both things I do and the

17:18

things that people are afraid of being are being

17:20

done or not done.

17:21

This inspired, like,

17:23

two philosophical questions I I might

17:26

ask you. One,

17:27

then do you

17:28

regret leaning too far into

17:30

that national profile then? If

17:32

what we're saying is that after

17:35

twenty eighteen, some of that projection

17:37

has come from

17:38

what your name has come to mean in terms

17:40

of kind of like national celebrity and profile.

17:42

That's something that you kind of controlled. Yes?

17:44

But Star Wars mistake. Okay. First

17:46

of all, it's Star Trek. Star Trek.

17:48

I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

17:50

Okay. Yeah.

17:54

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Fair. Okay.

17:56

But let let's go back to twenty nineteen,

17:58

twenty twenty. Let's

17:59

not forget that

17:59

in twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, we facing

18:02

a crisis of democracy.

18:04

And

18:05

because of the organizational work that

18:07

we did, one of the reasons I've been

18:09

given, you know, some credit for

18:11

the success was that we

18:14

truly raised the alarms. And I was

18:16

one of the voices that was able to

18:18

concretize and explain this

18:20

matter. So do I regret helping,

18:22

you know,

18:23

organize and focus the minds of

18:25

Americans on the threat to our democracy

18:28

My dad was arrested when he was

18:30

fourteen for registering black people to

18:32

vote in Mississippi. Instead of

18:33

getting arrested, I I got some

18:36

magazine covers. Mhmm. But my

18:38

mission, if you read every story, was about

18:40

how do we save democracy? How do we make certain

18:42

we have an accurate census? How do we get

18:44

resources to the communities that

18:46

need it? How do we do right? I don't

18:48

control the means of communication, but

18:50

I am never going to shy away from telling

18:52

people what they deserve and

18:54

how they can get it. Mhmm.

18:56

Star Trek, however, I have loved Star Trek

18:58

since nineteen eighty nine and I

19:01

will never regret be able to

19:03

stand on the bridge and be able to have that

19:05

conversation because I will forever be able

19:07

to live long and prosper. No. No.

19:09

No. No. I I get that.

19:12

what then then would

19:13

it mean? I I know you don't wanna entertain

19:15

the prospect, but what then would it mean if you lost

19:17

the gubernatorial race? It would seem like in

19:20

that same kind of projection, not

19:22

just be a loss of Stacey Abrams

19:24

as a candidate in Georgia

19:25

for the second time. It would

19:27

seem to be a blow to a political vision that

19:29

you embody. Do you think that's true?

19:32

there is always going to

19:35

be the

19:35

worry that people extrapolate

19:38

from one data point, an

19:40

entire

19:40

narrative. And we see

19:42

that happen. And it's happening

19:43

unfortunately in part because of

19:46

who I am pointing to

19:47

as the solution. And this goes back to the very

19:49

beginning of this conversation.

19:51

When black and

19:52

brown people are seen as

19:55

the means

19:55

of success,

19:56

it does not guarantee

19:59

victory. but

20:00

it guarantees continued engagement.

20:02

I want the outcome of

20:04

victory because I want to do the job

20:07

of governor. But

20:08

what undergirds everything I do is the

20:11

obligation of access. People deserve

20:13

to be heard. And I

20:15

think what I demonstrated in the

20:17

intervening four years since twenty eighteen to

20:19

now is that my

20:21

responsibility is going to constantly be how

20:23

do I do the most good possible

20:25

for the greatest number

20:27

possible, and how do I encourage

20:29

people to

20:29

own and control their own power?

20:32

so that it doesn't matter whose name is on the ballot. All that matters

20:34

is who shows up to make the decisions.

20:36

Stacey Abrams,

20:37

I appreciate your time.

20:39

Thank you. And thank you for very thoughtful and

20:41

engaging questions.

20:42

Thank you. IIII take that so

20:44

hard. I mean No. No. No. No. Look.

20:46

I mean, III

20:48

think these are conversations we have to have

20:50

and

20:50

it's We'll

20:53

be right

20:54

back.

21:03

My colleague

21:03

Mya King is on the politics desk

21:06

and is based in Georgia. It

21:08

was her story that Stacey Abrams took

21:11

issue with.

21:11

And I wanted to ask her about the

21:14

specific details of her

21:16

reporting. So let's starting

21:17

with what she was seeing that led

21:19

her to take up the story in the first place. That led

21:21

you to take up the story. Well,

21:25

we were reporting out a number of

21:28

stories on the ground in

21:30

Georgia, I was trying to talk to

21:32

folks as close to

21:34

the base, the democratic base as

21:37

possible. the community leaders, the

21:39

county elected

21:40

officials, the validators,

21:42

if you will, who in a race

21:44

that is going to we

21:46

can, I think, safely say,

21:47

be decided largely on

21:49

the margins that could come down to

21:52

several thousand votes. These are the

21:54

folks who I felt were going to

21:56

make the difference in making sure that those

21:58

people on either side

21:59

turned out. Mhmm. I mean, everyone

22:02

seems to

22:02

be an agreement that this race

22:04

is going to be close. You were trying

22:06

to figure out which populations

22:08

could decide those thin margins.

22:10

Absolutely.

22:11

And we also looked

22:13

at

22:13

polls that showed, you know, which groups,

22:16

especially in the Democratic base,

22:17

had been the most enthusiastic and

22:20

which

22:20

groups were lagging a little bit. And

22:22

one point that stuck out to us

22:25

was this underperformance that we

22:27

had seen at that stage in the

22:29

race that Democrats, particularly

22:32

Abrams had with black men -- Mhmm. --

22:34

we know that her to be successful her

22:36

campaign has said this too, she would

22:38

need to perform with upwards of eighty

22:40

five to ninety percent of African

22:42

American men in Georgia.

22:44

Around

22:44

the time that we were doing this reporting and

22:47

looking at the numbers, what we found was

22:49

they floated a little bit closer to

22:51

seventy five to eighty percent.

22:53

So

22:53

not a huge gap,

22:55

but again,

22:55

if we're talking about a race that

22:58

will be won and lost at

23:00

the margins, it was something that we felt we

23:02

had to pay very close attention to.

23:04

Mhmm. And what

23:05

did your reporting find

23:08

about why Abrams might be

23:10

having a tougher time to just go around with groups

23:12

like Blackman? Well, I'll

23:14

start by saying that we know with all

23:17

demographic groups there is indeed

23:19

a gender gap. And so black men are no different

23:21

from any other group in that

23:23

a portion of black men are

23:25

more likely to defect

23:28

to Republican. Mhmm.

23:30

However, we also know that in

23:32

Georgia, black voters are

23:35

the base and the most loyal, and really it's the

23:37

most valuable portion of the

23:39

Democratic base. And so

23:41

we know that vast

23:44

majority of black men will

23:46

support Democrats and will vote for

23:48

Stacey Abrams rather enthusiastically. what

23:51

we're asking about is the margins

23:53

here.

23:53

And it's just a different game

23:56

with Democrats in Georgia because

23:58

you're operating from

23:59

the belief or from the

24:02

understanding that you are having to

24:04

galvanize just a lot of different

24:06

types of voters in order to get

24:08

them all to turn out for Democrats.

24:11

Mhmm. But depending

24:11

on what strategy they deploy,

24:14

It's not the only group that could

24:16

decide the election for Democrats. Right?

24:18

Let's talk about

24:19

the other voting group that you're reporting

24:22

focused on. Well, the other group that we focused on

24:24

and and aim to really unpack here

24:26

were were the groups that really every

24:28

candidate in every race knows

24:30

that they have to have a critical mass of,

24:32

and that's those sort of

24:34

moderate or conservative leaning

24:36

largely white voters who

24:39

tend to swing one way or the

24:41

other in any competitive race

24:43

in Georgia. And for the last

24:45

few years have largely decided the outcome

24:47

of these races. What is

24:49

your reporting finding of

24:52

where those voters are in this

24:54

race in twenty twenty

24:55

two? I mean,

24:56

what we found right now

24:58

just

24:59

talking to people in these

25:02

areas is that this is a

25:04

group that

25:04

has seen four

25:05

years of Brian Kemp

25:08

and is not unhappy.

25:10

Mhmm.

25:10

Is relatively pleased

25:12

with what the incumbent governor

25:15

has been able to accomplish. And

25:17

one thing that he has said is, look, you

25:19

might not agree with everything that I say, you

25:21

might not agree with everything that I do.

25:23

but you can't say that I didn't do what I

25:26

said I was going to do. Mhmm.

25:27

And to a lot of voters, that's

25:30

actually a very effective message

25:32

even if it does mean some pretty

25:34

far to the right policies. This

25:36

is a man who ran on

25:38

a platform of

25:40

getting in his pickup truck and rounding up

25:43

criminal illegals. Those are his words.

25:45

So I'm not trying to paint him at all

25:47

as someone who is trying

25:49

to appeal to to

25:51

moderates. What he is trying to do

25:53

is make sure that every single

25:55

person in the and voting base in

25:57

Georgia turns out. And

25:58

then by making this sort

25:59

of second

26:00

term, I did what I said I was

26:02

going to do the first four years, I'll continue to do

26:05

that the next four years, he too

26:07

can chip away at these groups of

26:09

voters at the margins like these

26:11

sort of conservative

26:12

leaning

26:13

voters in the suburbs to

26:16

say, give

26:16

me four more years to continue doing the job

26:19

that I did. The challenge

26:21

for him has been catching up to

26:23

the demographic changes in Georgia

26:25

and sort of having to temper that

26:27

language that does lean

26:29

very far to the right. to

26:31

try to appeal to those people in the middle

26:33

that we're talking about. So, of course, there

26:35

was all of this drama in twenty

26:37

twenty where Kemp certified

26:40

the election and he came across as this

26:42

hero of democracy that I

26:44

think

26:44

appealed in large part to a

26:47

number of of

26:49

even liberal leaning voters who

26:51

liked

26:51

to see a Republican

26:53

who could stand up

26:56

to Trump. I

26:56

believe that's why you see Abrams pushing

26:58

this message of. He did the

27:00

right thing. He followed the

27:03

rules. does not make him in

27:05

any way some kind of a hero. Mhmm.

27:07

In the minds of those in the middle though,

27:09

they liked that move. It's

27:11

like here's someone who appealed to

27:14

the far right sensibilities of the Republican

27:16

base, but when it came down to

27:18

the wire,

27:19

did not betray

27:21

lowercase d Democratic

27:23

principles.

27:25

And again, to the small

27:27

slice of voters who exist in

27:30

this swing

27:30

conservative leaning universe, that

27:33

could very well be enough for them to

27:35

elect him to four more years. And

27:37

that's the

27:39

issue that the

27:40

Democratic ticket, particularly, say,

27:43

see Abrams, are

27:44

having to contend with. Also

27:47

feel

27:47

like we might be talking around something here,

27:49

which is not just who Abrams

27:51

is running against, but how

27:54

voters see her? in twenty twenty, Biden

27:56

asked moderate Republicans to

27:58

bet on the Democrat who

28:00

happened to be a moderate white

28:03

guy. Right? We talked to Jim Clyburn about

28:05

how the white guy part of that

28:07

was really key to them seeing him

28:09

as electable. In

28:11

Georgia, they did that. But Abrams is a

28:12

black woman and who has perceived to be

28:15

more progressive

28:16

up against

28:17

that type of moderate white male

28:19

figure that has

28:21

historically a more traditionally hold seats

28:23

like governor. I

28:25

don't think that's something

28:26

we should skip over in terms of why

28:28

some of these Biden

28:31

voters might

28:31

relate more to Kemp than in Abrams? No,

28:33

I don't think we should skip over it at

28:35

all. Like, we have to acknowledge that

28:37

this

28:37

is a black woman who

28:40

is running to be something that

28:42

Georgia voters, that American voters have

28:44

never seen before, a black governor

28:47

of deep south state, a black woman governor of

28:49

a deep south state, and someone who

28:51

has been unapologetic in

28:54

describing policies

28:56

that she supports

28:58

and backing up, you know, with

29:01

data and with her own

29:03

knowledge, how she thinks these

29:05

policies will work in Georgia. You

29:07

know, she's not cowering away

29:09

from her policy viewpoints. She

29:11

she doesn't back away from us of anything. No.

29:13

She really doesn't. And I think that voters have they're not used

29:15

to seeing that, and it turns off a lot of

29:17

voters. It just does. A lot of white voters

29:19

in Georgia who have never seen anyone like

29:21

Stacey Abrams before. Mhmm.

29:23

Mhmm. Okay. Let's talk about

29:25

where this all leaves us. Because Democrats

29:27

are

29:27

talking about this playbook.

29:30

as an important piece of the party strategy

29:33

going forward. It is frankly

29:35

the answer I get. If you

29:37

ask prominent Democrats, about what they're gonna

29:40

do about the Republican Advantage

29:42

and grassroots organizing all across

29:44

the country. So what do you think the significance

29:46

of this election will be when

29:48

it comes to how the party thinks about this

29:51

playbook in relationship to its larger

29:53

strategy. We

29:54

have looked to

29:55

November twenty twenty two in

29:58

Georgia and the outcome of this

29:59

election as an

30:01

answer to the question of whether

30:04

or not this strategy of

30:06

turning out infrequent,

30:09

largely voters of color,

30:11

younger voters, people who

30:13

exist out side of this universe of

30:15

white moderate or conservative

30:17

leaning voters in the suburbs who tend to

30:19

vote one way or another whether

30:21

or not that strategy is going

30:23

to be effective and is going

30:25

to become sort of political gospel

30:28

in Georgia moving forward.

30:31

Stacey Abrams has become synonymous

30:34

now with that very strategy.

30:36

And so it seems that if she

30:38

does indeed lose in November,

30:40

we see a scenario in which

30:43

people take that loss to

30:45

mean that this playbook should just

30:47

be thrown away. Mhmm. The

30:49

Democrat should revert back

30:50

to their strategy of

30:53

appealing more to these moderate

30:55

swing voters who are not very

30:57

diverse and then count on

30:59

a strong enough showing

31:02

of people

31:03

of color, young people, and

31:05

frequent voters, but not factor them in

31:07

to the calculus of who

31:09

needs to be persuaded, who needs to be talked to,

31:11

who needs to be invested in.

31:14

But I think Democrats

31:16

if they do indeed write off this entire

31:19

strategy in Georgia and

31:21

beyond, should the

31:23

party see some major losses up and

31:25

down the ticket in November, it

31:27

would mean leaving voters

31:29

on the table. Mhmm. Mhmm.

31:31

It

31:31

reminds me of something Kellyanne Conway told

31:34

me, which

31:34

is that in running the

31:36

Trump campaign, she said they

31:38

understood that there was not a tap on

31:40

a single group of voters, and that Trump had to

31:43

break rules

31:44

to appeal,

31:46

to but ended up being the key demographic group

31:49

that unlocked his twenty

31:50

sixteen equation, white

31:52

working class

31:53

voters, particularly non college white

31:56

voters. and that that was a group that the

31:58

establishment was kinda leaving behind.

32:00

It feels like Stacy Abrams is

32:02

asking Democrats to rule break, frankly.

32:04

and embrace a demographic group that

32:07

could unlock political possibilities

32:09

for them. But

32:10

breaking those

32:11

rules also

32:14

for Republicans has

32:16

kicked off a whole party internal

32:18

fight because

32:19

it's turned off

32:20

a lot of college educated moderates

32:23

who have started voting for

32:25

democrats because of the way

32:26

that Trump and the Republican Party

32:29

has embraced this new type of messaging to

32:31

drive out the base. It

32:33

strikes

32:33

me to that same kind of cost

32:35

to benefit analysis can

32:38

be true when we're talking about Democrats

32:41

and

32:41

Abrams. Right? Like, she's

32:43

asking them to invest

32:46

in a strategy that more directly

32:49

centers messaging to

32:51

black man, to young people,

32:53

to underrepresented groups

32:55

to rural voters and

32:57

the like. And

32:59

it seems like

33:01

doing that might also

33:04

come with a cost

33:05

of turning

33:06

off some of the voters

33:08

who definitely vote and

33:10

who are those moderate

33:11

swing people in the

33:14

middle.

33:14

So we should also probably

33:16

acknowledge, right, that it is a hard

33:18

line to walk And the biggest proof point

33:20

of that

33:21

is what happens on the

33:24

Republican side over the last ten

33:26

years? Yeah.

33:26

And I mean, look, Democrats have

33:28

had a hard time trying to do a

33:30

very hard thing, which is hold

33:33

altogether as one coalition

33:36

the same white college

33:38

educated moderate voters who

33:40

largely exist in the suburbs alongside

33:44

these voters like black

33:46

men at the margins who don't feel

33:48

like their needs have been listened to

33:50

young voters who feel homeless politically

33:52

in many ways. first time voters,

33:55

disinfected people of color,

33:57

all of these people have been

33:59

able to be added

33:59

to the Democratic co in Georgia as we saw

34:02

in twenty twenty. But the question

34:04

now for the party,

34:04

for Democrats in particular,

34:06

is how do you hold all of these people together

34:10

is one national coalition

34:11

across several different states over

34:14

time. Mhmm. Why do a risky

34:16

thing in talking to

34:18

these communities

34:20

may or may not come out when you can do the easy thing

34:22

and tailor your messages to the

34:24

communities who most likely

34:28

come out. Exactly, which seems like a short term

34:29

response to a long

34:32

term dilemma.

34:34

I wanna pick

34:36

up on what

34:39

Maya was saying. Democrats

34:41

have often deployed a

34:43

short term political strategy. that focuses

34:45

on moderate voters in hopes

34:47

to seize

34:48

on weak republican candidates.

34:51

and sometimes it

34:53

works. For

34:54

example, in the other

34:56

big midterms race in George,

34:59

The incumbent senator Rafael

35:02

Warmock has benefited from a

35:04

controversial Republican opponent, In

35:06

Hershel Walker, whose scandals have hurt his standing

35:08

with moderate swing voters in

35:10

particular. That's

35:13

raised the possibility. that

35:16

Democrats could succeed in the Georgia senate

35:18

race even as Abrams

35:20

falls short in her

35:22

own race. But the point of the playbook

35:24

is less about immediate

35:26

victories and more about a

35:28

long term

35:30

strategy. for Democrats to build a grassroots machine

35:32

of their own, one

35:34

that's on their

35:35

own terms. empowered

35:38

by previously ignored voters who've

35:40

been apathetic

35:41

and mistrustful that the system

35:43

can

35:43

deliver for

35:46

them. Next

35:47

time on the

35:48

run up, how Republicans

35:50

have already seized control of

35:54

two key parts of the

35:56

system and are once again a step ahead.

36:14

The run up is reported by me

36:15

as that harmed it

36:17

and produced by Alyssa

36:20

Gutierrez and Caitlin O'Keefe.

36:23

It's edited

36:24

by Frankie Carthoff,

36:26

LaRissa Anderson, and Lisa

36:29

Tobit. with original music by

36:31

Dan Powell, Marion Lozano,

36:34

and Alicia But e2.

36:36

This episode was mixed by Brad Fish

36:39

and fact checked by Caitlyn

36:41

Love. Special thanks to

36:43

Paula Schuman. Sam Dolan.

36:46

David How Fanger. Julia Simon, Maheema

36:48

Chablani, Shannon Buster,

36:50

Nell Gallogly, Jeffrey Miranda,

36:53

and Maddie Messiello. Thanks

36:57

so much

36:57

for listening y'all.