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0:17

Okay, we do have results.

0:21

Okay, 167 votes were cast, which means

0:23

you'd need 84 to have a majority. There's

0:30

this moment from my reporting that I can't stop

0:32

thinking about. It was late

0:34

January. The RNC had just

0:36

held its vote for party chair. Mike

0:39

Lindell received four votes.

0:45

Harmeet Dhillon received 51 votes. And

0:48

Ronna McDaniel received 111 votes. Ronna

0:54

McDaniel had easily won re-election.

0:56

So I'm pleased to announce Ronna

0:58

McDaniel has been elected chairman

1:01

of the Republican National Committee and

1:02

the gavel is yours. Congratulations.

1:07

And the first thing she did. Thank

1:12

you. We got it. We got to get Mike and Harmeet

1:14

up here. Mike and Harmeet, can you please come up?

1:17

Thank you for the race you

1:18

ran, for the leaders you are in our party.

1:21

We are so grateful for you.

1:24

She was called her two challengers, fellow

1:27

RNC member Harmeet Dhillon and

1:29

MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell, up

1:32

to the stage for a moment of unity.

1:34

She

1:40

hugged Dhillon and then Lindell. I

1:48

can't say enough wonderful things

1:50

about Mike and Harmeet. And then got serious.

1:54

We need all of us. We heard you grassroots,

1:56

we know. We heard Harmeet, we heard Mike

1:59

Lindell.

1:59

But with us united and all of us going together,

2:02

the Democrats are gonna hear us in 2024

2:06

when we take back the White House and the Senate.

2:09

Thank you, thank

2:10

you. McDaniel

2:14

had gotten 111 votes. Lindell

2:16

had gotten four. But

2:18

here was McDaniel telling the crowd that

2:21

the party needed him. Lindell,

2:24

the far-right infomercial celebrity

2:27

and leading voice of election denial. These

2:29

machines were used to

2:31

steal our election by other

2:34

countries, including China. The man

2:36

who'd repeated to bunk claims about voting

2:39

machine fraud again and again for

2:41

years. They stole the 2020

2:43

election, they stole down-tickets. The

2:45

champion of arguably the most losing

2:47

issue of the midterm elections. We

2:49

got attacked by China, and they

2:52

flipped this election.

2:53

For me, this moment

2:55

onstage perfectly captures the challenge

2:58

facing the Republican Party right now. An

3:00

establishment trying desperately

3:02

to satisfy its base despite

3:05

evidence that they're costing the party elections.

3:08

So after months of reporting on that dynamic,

3:11

I wanted to talk to these two people who

3:14

sit at the heart of it. Today,

3:17

Mike Lindell, an RNC chair,

3:20

Ronna McDaniel. From

3:22

the New York Times, I'm Estette Herndon.

3:25

This is The Run-Up.

3:29

We have a spot upstairs that we want to sit down. Where we going? We're

3:31

going upstairs. Our other producer is up there. I'd first

3:33

met Lindell at the RNC winter meeting,

3:36

but it was a few weeks later at CPAC that

3:41

we were scheduled to sit down and talk. It was ahead of

3:43

his speech there, and he was surrounded

3:46

by a team of handlers and fans. Okay. And

3:48

you can guess, how many selfies do you think you

3:50

take a death? You get requests for them? Everywhere

3:52

in the country. We didn't even

3:54

make it up the stairs before

3:57

someone asked him for himself.

3:59

New York or everywhere. I'd

4:02

originally planned to talk to him for 45 minutes, but

4:05

our conversation lasted three and a half hours

4:08

because talking to Lindell is an experience.

4:11

He's got this narrative about his life. It's

4:14

been practiced in tons of interviews he's

4:16

given to right-wing media and

4:19

in his book. You know, things would happen to me if

4:21

you read my book from crack addict to CEO. One

4:23

of the things that you put in my book, if you

4:26

read my book, just like my life, if you read my book.

4:28

That he'll tell you about over and over

4:30

again. The stories are real, 100% real.

4:34

And he insists that all of it is

4:36

true. Not 98%, 100%. It's

4:39

a life of dreams and divine interventions.

4:42

But here's kind of the thrust of it. I came

4:45

from a divorced family, a seven years old,

4:47

put into a new school where divorces weren't

4:49

common. And I was the only kid from

4:51

a broken home in that school. The story

4:53

starts in Minnesota, when his parents

4:55

divorced. I felt like I didn't fit in

4:57

either. I would either show off or I wouldn't talk. I

5:00

was kind of fit in all the groups, but yet none of the

5:02

groups. He traces his struggles

5:04

back to that. And then I was betting on sports

5:06

with the mafia. When I was 17 and 18, they

5:09

came to my door to collect. He gets

5:11

into gambling. Back then I've

5:12

got DWIs, shrinking. That

5:15

turned to cocaine in the early 1980s. Then

5:18

becomes addicted to cocaine. And in

5:20

the night, about 2000, right around

5:22

the year 2000, might a chug

5:24

of choice switch from cocaine to crack

5:26

cocaine. But in the meantime, Yeah, what

5:29

was the first business idea you tried out?

5:31

Oh, I said first bigger one would be, I

5:34

worked for my uncle on his farm and I said,

5:36

I'm going to raise my own pigs. I bought my own pigs

5:38

and they all got loose. And then plug market went

5:40

way down and I lost all my money there too. But

5:42

he's trying out a bunch of businesses. We built

5:44

this massive lunch wagon

5:47

route and it was covered over a hundred and some businesses.

5:50

We owned a bar and I didn't have

5:52

money. Nobody gave me any money. It was all- And

5:54

I was also a professional card counter. And in his

5:56

telling, how did you get the idea for the pillow?

5:58

The idea for the pillow. Here's, let

6:00

me go back and pillows then. He's always

6:03

had a thing with pillows. One of my

6:05

first paychecks when I was 16 years

6:07

old, I went out and bought the most

6:09

expensive pillow I could find, which

6:12

at that time was a down pillow. I mean, who does

6:14

that as a 16 year old kid? But

6:16

I was so, you know, with pillows,

6:18

I couldn't get them to work. I'd use my arm, fold them

6:21

and have headaches and stack in pillows. And

6:23

I'm going, what, you know, there's got to be something better,

6:25

you know? And then I got this down

6:27

pillow and it didn't work. It was the worst

6:29

and I couldn't return it. So it was horrible. Well, all

6:32

through my life, different pillows I've tried.

6:35

And then in 2004, it was a dream. And

6:40

I'm going, you know, what if you have something you could move

6:42

it and it would hold so you adjust it like a,

6:44

you're adjusting the height. So

6:47

me and my son would be out on our deck tearing

6:50

up different foams and it was quite

6:52

a process, but how long did it take that

6:54

full process? Over, over a year. I mean, the story

6:56

has a kind of mythical,

6:58

somewhat quality to it. Did you feel

7:01

like that dream? Like, do you see it as

7:03

a kind of religious experience? Oh yeah. A hundred percent.

7:05

I would get, you know, downloads from God going,

7:07

I would see, I would get even a conscious

7:09

stream or whatever and going, okay, let's try

7:12

this or let's try this. It becomes

7:14

a story of a man on a mission

7:16

struggling to overcome his demons. I

7:19

had come from a show in Milwaukee

7:21

and I was held at gunpoint there

7:24

in a crack house for

7:26

two days. There are low points. Now

7:28

during that 2008, I hardly

7:30

did any pillow shows because I couldn't

7:32

do them because I was so full blown crack because

7:34

things were going down. And interventions.

7:37

I come out of the room and all three of my biggest

7:40

drug dealers were standing there. From his

7:42

drug dealers. I come out and I say, what are you guys

7:44

doing? He goes, the one guy, Ty, he goes,

7:46

you've been up for 14 days. We're cutting you off.

7:49

I go, what is this an intervention? He said, call

7:51

it whatever you want, Mike. And the one

7:53

guy left and discuss, he says, he's not getting

7:55

any from my guys. You know, and they, there's rock

7:58

bottom about two o'clock in the morning. I was

8:00

already carpet farming. Every crack addict

8:02

listening to this would know I'm carpet farming. You're

8:04

on there, you're looking, you think there's crack there

8:06

and you're smoking, anything you could find. And

8:09

then he just wakes up one morning.

8:11

It was January 16, 2009. And

8:15

on that day, I knew, there was

8:17

a calling on my life and I knew the path.

8:20

I prayed and I said, God, I'll do this

8:22

calling, whatever it is,

8:24

but I wanna be freed of the desire.

8:27

I wanna wake up and never have the desire

8:29

again

8:29

for any of these addictions, okay?

8:32

And I woke up the next morning

8:34

and it was gone. The desire was

8:37

gone forever. And

8:39

that's the beginning of everything that happens next.

8:41

To 2011 and I had a dream that

8:44

I could make the biggest infomercial ever. Lindell

8:47

comes up with the idea to do an infomercial.

8:49

Hello, I'm Mike Lindell. I've invented the

8:51

world's most comfortable pillow. I make them right

8:53

here in the United States. Do not change

8:56

that channel because the next half hour is gonna change

8:58

your life. October 7,

8:59

2011, that infomercial launched. I

9:03

was living in my sister's basement with not

9:05

dialing, like just my kids and family

9:07

working for me. And it launched and 40 days

9:10

later, I had 500 employees. The

9:12

pillow business explodes.

9:14

And then. May of 2015 and I had a dream that

9:18

I would be with Donald Trump in a room. I go, why would

9:20

I wanna meet Donald Trump? And

9:22

I'm thinking to myself, because I didn't watch Apprentice.

9:25

I knew nothing about other than he, he

9:27

was a famous guy and Trump. And

9:30

then he announced he's running for president in June.

9:34

And I go, well, maybe there's something divine about that

9:36

or whatever. There's another dream come true. Now

9:39

in the summer of 16, I'm

9:41

on a plane and

9:44

I actually was praying on the plane going, God,

9:47

if I'm, I was reading a magazine about him. This was

9:49

like an early August of 16. I'm

9:51

going, if I've seen this in this dream, I said,

9:53

I need to know right now. My

9:55

phone dinged. It was an email. Helping to Mike, this is Donald

9:58

Trump. Will you meet me at Trump Tower? And I'm going. God,

10:00

it was just like I was getting these answers to

10:03

prayers in real time or answers. Well, that

10:05

meeting came to fruition. Lindell ends

10:07

up in Trump Tower, talking one-on-one

10:10

with Trump. And then he asked me, he had

10:12

no other agenda, never asked for money, nothing. He

10:15

says, do you know, you make all your stuff

10:17

here, I wanted to ask you some stuff. You know,

10:19

your employees, you know, is it harder not

10:21

having from overseas? And asked, I go,

10:23

no, I love it, I wouldn't have it any other way. He

10:25

goes, well, I'm bringing the manufacturing back. And

10:28

it was like talking to a best friend,

10:29

here's a guy asking me that could

10:32

be president, my opinions. And

10:34

it was, what amazed me was, you know, he

10:36

wasn't doing a sales pitch. He was asking me, like

10:38

my opinion, being a businessman, because he had seen

10:41

the commercials on TV and stuff. And anyway.

10:43

And that was the connection. He saw the commercials that made the

10:46

reach out happen. I don't know. I don't

10:48

know why he reached out. You know, that's, you know, he

10:51

asked me about my manufacturing, making it here in the US

10:53

if that worked out good. Lindell is super

10:55

impressed by what he's hearing. So I went

10:57

back to Minnesota and

11:00

I get before my board and we're talking, I go,

11:02

wow, I said, I met Donald Trump. I said, he'll

11:05

be a great president. You know, hey, I'm going

11:07

to go do a press release. I want people to hear

11:09

about Donald Trump. And one

11:11

guy on the board says, you do that and you're going

11:13

to lose half our customers. I go, why would, what

11:15

do you mean? And I walked out of there, man,

11:17

and my CMO came out and she goes, we didn't get this

11:19

far by you not listening to God. Cause I would have us

11:22

pray about different things. I went back into

11:24

the room. I said, you're right. I

11:26

said, I'm going to do that press release. I said. Even

11:28

though he knows next to nothing about politics.

11:30

I didn't know a conservative

11:33

from a liberal. I didn't know what a Democrat

11:36

was. I didn't know what a Republican was. I

11:38

knew zero, zero. He

11:40

decides he's going to come out publicly in

11:42

support of Trump. Do you know what happened? They

11:44

all attacked me, called me a racist.

11:47

I mean, it was like the biggest hate

11:49

thing ever put at me. I'm going,

11:51

what? I'm not going to have anybody tell

11:53

me you could shoot me full of holes at that

11:55

time. And that I'm not going to change me. After

11:58

Trump wins,

11:59

Lindell. fully into this new political

12:01

identity. Hello, I'm Mike Lindell, the CEO

12:04

of MyPillow. Cancel culture

12:06

has not only affected myself and MyPillow,

12:09

but also millions of you out there. Well,

12:11

my employees and I want to personally thank

12:14

each and every one of you for all your support.

12:16

He becomes an advertising powerhouse on

12:18

Fox News. And we want to pass the savings

12:20

directly onto you. At MyPillow,

12:23

we have hundreds of products. And goes from

12:25

spending a few million dollars on Fox

12:27

ads in 2014,

12:29

to 50 million dollars in 2020.

12:32

Then you go to the 2020 election. But

12:35

it's the 2020 election that truly

12:38

activates Lindell. When I woke

12:40

up on November 4th, I

12:42

started looking into stuff myself. What

12:44

happened to me was I was given evidence

12:46

on January 9th of 2021 that

12:49

it was machines, cyber,

12:51

completely all cyber, done with computers,

12:54

and China wasn't balled. From that point

12:57

on, call it political or call it whatever

12:59

you want. It's not about

13:01

Donald Trump. It's about

13:02

we lose our country if we don't get

13:04

rid of these computers. That's been my

13:06

narrative since that day. He talks

13:08

about January 9th as the day he

13:11

saw the truth. And ever since

13:13

then, he's poured his money into one

13:15

cause.

13:16

Getting rid of electronic voting machines.

13:19

He's offered five million dollars to anyone

13:21

who can prove him wrong.

13:23

And he's actually been ordered to pay that out. To

13:26

someone who did. Did your business

13:28

take a hit after you became so vocal about...

13:30

No, they took

13:32

a hit when I went and spoke out against

13:34

the machine. Who had to borrow money this fall

13:37

to keep my employees. I don't want to lay

13:39

anybody off. That's not what I've

13:41

spent on the election crime and stuff,

13:43

which is over 40 million dollars. You've

13:45

spent over 40 million dollars in service. Over 40 million

13:47

dollars trying to get rid of these machines

13:50

and get our country back.

13:52

Isn't there though a kind of cynical

13:54

view of this arc that says, we've

13:56

also really cornered the Trump market.

13:59

market. The folks who voted for Donald

14:02

Trump, the people who take selfies with

14:04

you everywhere. I'm saying I read

14:06

that when your phone was seized by the FBI

14:08

that your sales

14:10

went up. How do you respond? I've had to borrow millions

14:12

of dollars. I've lost millions by

14:14

being this to try and save our country. This

14:17

is the moment when Lendell becomes really angry

14:19

and really conspiratorial. After

14:22

an hour and a half of conversation about his

14:24

life, his demeanor completely

14:26

changes when we talk about the election.

14:29

I'm saying there was a slate of Republicans in the 2022 midterms

14:31

that talked about

14:33

machines. They stole all

14:35

their elections. You're right. Everyone, we have 100% proof

14:38

they stole their election. I'm saying that there is a view

14:41

that's endorsed by a lot of independent agencies,

14:43

by Republicans included, that

14:45

says that the swing voters rejected

14:47

that argument in 2022 midterms.

14:49

No, they were stalled. Let me just explain. Everyone,

14:52

what did they have in common? They wanted to fix

14:54

our election platforms after they got in there.

14:57

If you're the other side, the UNI party,

14:59

the CCP, the Globus, they stole

15:02

everyone. You're going, well, where's your evidence?

15:04

You guys went printed. If I showed

15:06

you tomorrow, you would not print it. And

15:09

it's 100%. To be clear, Lendell's

15:11

not just saying the 2020 election

15:13

was stolen. He's saying that he's 100% certain

15:17

that China, globalists, moderate

15:19

Republicans, and moderate Democrats,

15:22

all banded together with voting machine

15:24

companies to steal elections in

15:27

the 2022 midterms as well. Claims

15:29

for which there isn't a shred of legitimate

15:32

evidence. Kerry Lake, Mark Finchem, Jim

15:34

Mercheung, Christina Caramo, Matt DiPerno,

15:36

Tudor Dixon, Blake... They all lost.

15:39

No, all of them won. They were everyone

15:41

that was stole with computers. And we can

15:43

show you that. The majority of Americans

15:45

believe the 2020 election was

15:47

not stolen. The machines were not the problem.

15:49

The majority of Americans find

15:51

that. Where do you find this fact? Who gives you

15:54

the post? No, who gives you them? That's

15:59

not a lie.

15:59

The majority of Americans

16:02

believe the 2020 election was not stolen.

16:05

Who did? Who did? Your

16:07

poll, did you do a poll? I and the New York Times has done polling. We both

16:09

know the majority of Americans do not believe the election

16:11

was not stolen. No, they don't. They ignore the majority of Americans

16:14

do believe it was. The majority don't. I am asking.

16:16

I am asking. Don't lie to me. If you

16:18

don't know, just say you don't know. Okay. Because

16:21

you don't know what that stat is. Okay. You don't

16:23

know. I understand that you do not believe the polls. I

16:25

am saying. No, I believe. As someone

16:27

who tries, can I finish the question? No. Okay.

16:31

Do you see any connection between your actions and

16:33

the events? Well, they really gave you an agenda,

16:35

didn't they? No, I'm asking the question off the top

16:38

of my head. This is not a vague. This is me.

16:40

Okay. Do you see a connection between your actions

16:43

and the events of January 6th?

16:45

Absolutely not. I had nothing to

16:47

do with January 6th. I'm saying the questioning of the election. I wasn't

16:49

there. My stuff came on January 9th. What's the

16:52

matter with me? I'm saying the questioning the election results

16:54

between the 2020 November election

16:56

and that culminated in, I remember

16:58

being in Georgia and people talking about the

17:01

machine stole the election. You know,

17:03

it did not just come on January 9th. All

17:06

I'm saying. When did you hear me? January

17:08

9th. I am saying. January 9th. You

17:11

used your... January 9th. You

17:13

also questioned the election results along

17:16

with former president Donald Trump before

17:18

January 9th. You liked Donald Trump. Let

17:20

me tell you. The election

17:22

was stole and all these people, everybody

17:25

knew there were anomalies. There

17:26

were anomalies that note, just let me finish.

17:29

Nobody looked into that. Okay. All

17:32

I'm saying is the skepticism about the

17:34

election that came before the night.

17:36

Everybody. It was all over social media. I'm saying

17:38

to using that voice, to using that brand

17:40

to further that skepticism. Do

17:42

you see any connection between that and January

17:45

6th was my question.

17:46

January 6th was all

17:48

set up because of the stole the election. Is

17:51

that what you're saying? Okay. That's

17:53

your belief. Did not hear you then. Did your boss give

17:55

me these crazy questions? I wrote them because I am

17:58

an independent thinker who thinks of themselves.

18:01

Lindell's refusal to let go of this issue

18:03

is central to the other reason I

18:05

wanted to talk to him. In addition

18:07

to his advertising on Fox, in

18:10

early 2021, just a few weeks after the

18:13

election was certified and the events

18:15

of January 6th, Lindell made an appearance on

18:28

Tucker Carlson's show. That appearance was one

18:30

of the segments at the center of the

18:38

lawsuit between Fox News

18:39

and the voting machine company Dominion,

18:43

the one that Fox just settled for $787

18:46

million, and it seems

18:48

to have helped cost Tucker Carlson his job.

18:51

Part of the reason why I was so interested in talking

18:53

to Lindell is because in the

18:55

internal Fox communications released

18:58

as part of that lawsuit,

18:59

it became clear

19:01

that the network had put him on the air because

19:04

of his financial support.

19:05

They also knew that foregrounding election

19:08

conspiracy would play well with their base,

19:10

who were already furious at them for calling

19:13

Arizona for Joe Biden. It

19:15

also became clear that behind

19:17

closed doors, they were ridiculing

19:20

Lindell. One of the most striking parts of that lawsuit

19:22

was that you see Rupert Murdoch,

19:24

you see Tucker Carlson privately saying

19:27

they did not believe these claims of election

19:29

denial. What did you think when you saw those comments?

19:31

I didn't bother them

19:33

at all because they said that back

19:36

in November and December. There are people

19:38

that they, I didn't know about the machines that

19:40

I was learning. I was doing my due diligence. You're

19:43

saying the evolution from what we see in the lawsuit

19:45

was too early

19:47

and that the evidence has come specifically around

19:49

the machines that if we went back to Rupert Murdoch, we

19:51

went back to Tucker Carlson. I understand

19:54

that. I'm just trying to make it clear that if you're

19:56

saying if we go back to those people, they're not, you don't

19:58

think they would say the same things now. So

20:00

when Rupert Murdoch says it's really crazy stuff,

20:02

what about that? What stuff? That's

20:05

denying the results of the last election is crazy stuff.

20:07

Here's what with Murdoch.

20:09

I don't know why they put Fox called Arizona

20:11

early. Don't care. I know one thing, but I

20:13

have all the evidence. Mine's different.

20:16

I have all the evidence. So Lindell claims to be unfazed

20:19

by the Fox revelations. Murdoch

20:21

has quoted a saying about you. This man

20:23

is on every night, pays us a lot of money. At

20:25

first you think it's comic, and then you get

20:27

bored. Like what do

20:29

you hear when you

20:31

read Rupert Murdoch saying that about you? Who's

20:34

someone who advertises every second of their show?

20:36

He's a businessman, and he takes

20:38

on... You know what he's saying? Let me tell you something.

20:41

Which makes me wonder. After being treated

20:43

like a joke, after the lawsuits

20:46

and the financial penalties, where is

20:48

this going? Do you have like an end in

20:50

sight? Like

20:53

if the machines don't go away? We're

20:55

done. The country's over. It doesn't

20:57

matter. Do you have an advocacy? Do you have a

20:59

limit to your advocacy?

21:00

Are you only going to spend X amount of money? I'm

21:02

going to spend more. I'll keep borrowing money like

21:04

I am now until I will sell everything I

21:06

have down to everything. Everything.

21:09

Nothing's going to stop Mike Lindell. Nothing will stop me. Nothing.

21:12

Nothing. Do you know what? They

21:14

came to Minnesota and they interviewed people around there. They said, when

21:16

would he give up? When's he going to give up?

21:18

And you know what they said?

21:20

They said you'd have to kill him. That's what

21:22

they told them. And that's fact. That

21:24

Lindell won't stop? It's

21:26

important. Because it puts him in an

21:28

increasingly small group that

21:31

continue to keep this issue live and

21:33

make it hard for the party to move on.

21:35

Are you going to try to friends? Are you going

21:38

to try to friends? Now we are. Like I said, now

21:40

I consider friends. Absolutely.

21:43

And then how often do

21:45

I talk to him now? I don't know. Maybe

21:47

every couple of weeks or so we talk, but we don't

21:49

talk about plans or what's going on or

21:51

whatever. Do you think he's vulnerable? It's very

21:53

small. It's basically just friends talking.

21:56

He talked the last time I talked. He talked about music.

21:58

We talked about music.

21:59

I'm actually curious what music did Donald

22:02

Trump talk about. When he's

22:04

at his place there at his residence, he'll

22:06

play, he likes being a DJ. He

22:08

really likes all different kinds of music. And

22:11

that's what we talked about. He goes, listen, I found this new song.

22:14

Trump and Lindell are in some ways the party's

22:16

greatest challenge to solve,

22:18

which brings me back to Ronna McDaniel and

22:21

that scene on the stage. Since

22:23

her election, Lindell has been working on a

22:26

new initiative, the Election Crime

22:28

Bureau. And he told us he was going

22:30

to use his upcoming speech at CPAC to

22:32

ask McDaniel for her support,

22:34

which would test her calls for unity on the public

22:37

stage. At least with Ronna, she's

22:39

called me five times waiting for me. You

22:41

know, how can I help? I'm going to say all I want

22:44

from you is one thing. You just endorse

22:46

what I'm doing with the Election Crime Bureau. And she

22:48

told me, she goes, Mike, we only get on donations

22:50

so much money that can go for lawyers

22:53

and stuff. And I said, I don't want any money. I

22:55

just want you to give a credibility

22:57

that we're going to go out there and fix these platforms.

23:00

What the RNC credibility or the election?

23:02

Right on that, to say, and why? I

23:04

just don't want them to block us anymore. Just

23:06

let us do our thing. And then you

23:09

guys will look like heroes that day. You know, they'll

23:11

look like we fixed the platform instead

23:13

of them doing nothing. And Ronna,

23:15

when I talked to her, she told me straight out, she goes, I

23:18

know there was fraud, Mike. Ronna McDaniel

23:20

knows there was fraud. She goes, I know there

23:22

was. And I go, well, all I want is you

23:25

if you endorse what I'm doing, it just

23:27

gives me more credibility in the media. Now you can go blame

23:29

the RNC. Look, and you can't say they're giving

23:32

me any money either. So I don't know how you're going to bash it.

23:35

After three and a half

23:37

hours, this was a breakthrough

23:40

moment for me. We know the

23:42

establishment fears the grassroots and

23:44

feels it needs these voters to win elections.

23:47

We saw that the RNC, we

23:50

saw it laid bare in the Dominion lawsuit.

23:53

But here is Mike Lindell, the ultimate

23:55

grassroots warrior, saying

23:58

I need the establishment too.

23:59

If you all know that Ronna McDaniel said

24:02

that she looked forward to working with Mike Lindell, you

24:04

know, well, what do you think? If you're

24:06

working with me, what do you think you're going to work on? Pretty

24:09

obvious. He did end up giving

24:11

that speech. The electioncrimebureau.com,

24:15

you can all check it out. I'm making the announcement

24:17

here and you can all

24:19

use your help, get there. But I want to, I'm

24:21

asking that the RNC endorse

24:24

this. I don't need to, I don't need any help

24:26

from them. I just want them to endorse

24:28

it. And this puts the

24:29

RNC in a tough spot. A

24:32

co-dependent relationship with

24:34

the person who says he'll die before

24:37

he'll stop talking about the rigged machines.

24:41

That's why I kept asking party officials at the

24:43

RNC. What are you

24:45

going to do with the Mike Lindells of the world? Finally,

24:50

thank you for joining us. Hi Estad,

24:52

thanks for having me. I got the chance to

24:54

ask Ronna McDaniel directly. That's

24:58

after the break.

25:27

I'm Elena Bergeron.

25:41

Hello. I'm John

25:43

Branch. I'm an editor for the New York Times.

25:45

I write for the Times. Okay, good. What

25:48

fascinates me about basketball sneakers is

25:50

how they can be markers of both high fashion

25:52

and performance. You know when you hear the

25:54

squeaking sounds of sneakers on a basketball

25:56

court? There's a scientific principle behind that

25:59

called stick-

25:59

I talked to Melody Asani. She's

26:02

designing these incredibly ornate basketball

26:04

shoes. She's also one of the very few

26:07

women to design sneakers for the biggest

26:09

male athletes.

26:10

Every time a sneaker grabs a hardwood

26:12

floor, it's sticking and unsticking,

26:14

sticking, unsticking, creating a sound.

26:17

When I look at a basketball sneaker, I

26:19

see design that's impacting our culture at

26:22

so many different levels besides just sports.

26:24

When I started reporting on why sneakers

26:26

squeak, I came to understand that we

26:28

hear this type of sound all around us. From

26:30

the strings of a violin to car tires,

26:33

even the spiny lobster.

26:35

The New York Times. Explore how we

26:37

bring more of life to life. At nytimes.com

26:40

slash life.

26:42

Thank you for joining us. Hi

26:44

Estad, thanks for having me. I

26:46

appreciate you taking some time out. If you don't mind,

26:48

I might jump in here. I know we only have you for

26:51

a specific amount of time.

26:52

Absolutely. No problem.

26:54

We first tried to talk to McDaniel when we

26:56

were in California for the chair vote.

26:59

Her team said she wasn't available then.

27:01

In the time since, I'd been to the DNC,

27:04

to CPAC.

27:05

I'd spoken to Lindell.

27:07

And by mid-March, when we finally talked,

27:10

Trump's indictment was starting to look all but inevitable.

27:13

But I wanted to start back at the beginning.

27:15

Thank you. I was at the RNC

27:17

winter meeting and I was there when you were reelected.

27:20

And you focused your speech on unity

27:23

and you brought your challenges up on stage. You promised

27:25

to work with them. But the story that we found

27:27

while we were there was a story about

27:30

a party that was searching, that was fractured,

27:32

maybe even fighting in some senses. Are

27:34

Republicans currently united? And

27:37

how do you get the party back to a place of

27:39

unity?

27:41

I think Republicans are united in our desire

27:43

to win in 2024. And

27:47

there's always times when after

27:49

an election you're going to have differences

27:52

or debate or discussion. And

27:56

I think

27:57

the fact that I ran on a unity message

28:00

and talking about how we come together

28:03

is what resonated in that election. And

28:05

that's why I won two to one, because

28:07

overwhelmingly I think that's what

28:10

Republicans want to see, they want to see us work

28:12

together to beat the Democrats. Mm-hmm,

28:14

mm-hmm. I'm going to ask about a couple of things that

28:16

came up in that election. One was from

28:18

the grassroots. Those people were pretty

28:21

unanimously opposed to you and they frankly

28:23

saw you as a member of the establishment and

28:25

held you responsible for the midterms losses.

28:28

Do you see this divide within the party right now

28:30

between the RNC and the Republican

28:33

grassroots?

28:34

Well, first of all, I consider myself grassroots.

28:37

I am a mom from Michigan, I still live

28:39

in Michigan. I started with

28:41

knocking doors, being a state committee

28:44

woman. I think what you saw in this

28:46

campaign was, you know, typical tactics

28:49

by my opponent to drum up some

28:52

angst around

28:54

a lot of misinformation. And

28:57

I think that's fading as I go to county conventions

28:59

or state conventions and I talk to the grassroots

29:02

about what the RNC actually does. We

29:04

don't pick the candidates the voters do. We

29:07

don't do the messaging. The campaigns

29:09

do through their pollsters or their

29:11

consultants. But what we do is we build

29:13

the infrastructure, we build the road that they all

29:15

drive on. And we put the candidates in

29:17

a position where they can win. And

29:20

coming out of 2022 in every single

29:22

battleground state where we competed statewide,

29:25

a Republican won

29:27

except for Pennsylvania. Republicans

29:30

turned out more voters than Democrats. Based

29:32

on the turnout from the 2022 election, we

29:35

would have won the electoral college because

29:37

we were the top vote-getter in Arizona,

29:40

Georgia and New Hampshire. So

29:43

based on the infrastructure we built, we did

29:45

put Republicans in a place where they could win.

29:47

What we do need to find out is, why did

29:49

one Republican win in a state and the other one

29:51

didn't? And that's gonna be the sweet spot

29:54

towards success in 2024.

29:55

I hear that. But I also

29:58

remember you coming onto that stage and...

29:59

saying after the re-election that you

30:02

hear the grassroots. So what

30:04

then did you hear as being

30:06

the valid concerns from the campaign? And

30:09

what do you think that divide between what they're

30:11

expressing and the RNC, what

30:13

do you think that divide is about? There does seem to be something

30:15

there.

30:16

I certainly think the grassroots needs

30:18

to understand what the RNC does. I don't think if

30:20

you ask the average person on the street

30:23

or even the average Republican, what does the Republican

30:25

National Committee do? We're not the umbrella

30:28

for everything. So I think that was a big

30:30

wake up for me, which is we've got to get out there

30:32

and talk more about what we do and our successes.

30:35

And the fact that we

30:38

are challenging laws like in New

30:40

York that allowed non-citizens to vote

30:42

and we won. That we won leading

30:45

the way

30:46

in DNC versus Bronovich, which

30:48

banned ballot harvesting in Arizona, that

30:51

we actually did win with early vote and

30:53

turnout in states like Florida

30:56

and North Carolina. And so what

30:58

I came out with is I got to communicate

31:01

better with them what we're doing so

31:03

that they know what the RNC actually does.

31:06

If I hear you correctly,

31:08

it seems like you're saying you think that some

31:10

of the things you take away from that election was

31:12

just maybe that you felt like the RNC

31:14

had an ignorance problem that you all needed to tell

31:17

people what you were doing. And that if given

31:19

that information, folks would come around to the RNC.

31:22

Is that what you're saying?

31:22

Well, I think that's, I wouldn't say ignorance.

31:24

I don't like that word, but I would say

31:27

you don't always know. So it's more just

31:29

a,

31:30

you know, we're not educating. We're not

31:32

out there talking about it. So we've got

31:34

to work on that. But there are things that

31:36

we can do better. We have to improve

31:38

with our outreach to the youth vote, independent

31:41

voters, we need to be reaching out to

31:43

them. I think independent voters are becoming

31:45

more and more important in every election. I think

31:48

people are becoming more independent voters

31:51

as a whole. So how do we reach them? And

31:54

also why did a Chris Nuneau

31:56

win in New Hampshire but

31:58

Don Bulldog did it? Why did we win?

31:59

eight out of nine statewide races in

32:02

Georgia on election day, but Herschel

32:04

didn't. So we've got to figure out what worked

32:06

with those messages and what didn't

32:08

and help educate future candidates.

32:11

Okay, the second big critique I heard coming

32:13

out of the RNC was from a completely different

32:15

group, a more, I would say, establishment

32:17

wing of the RNC that had long disliked Trump

32:20

and his effect on the party. Their

32:22

critique was actually that they

32:24

felt that you were too beholden to Donald

32:26

Trump and were unable to run a fair

32:28

and open primary. What would your response be

32:30

to that? Well,

32:31

obviously, I didn't take an endorsement

32:34

from anybody heading into this election. I've pledged

32:36

neutrality. I've done it since 2020. I think

32:39

that's a critical role of the RNC, but our

32:43

duty right now is to the voters and to

32:45

make sure we put forward a fair

32:47

primary debate process that

32:50

allows the voters to view each of the

32:52

candidates and make the determination as

32:54

to who will be the next nominee. And

32:56

in my mind, the next president of the United

32:58

States. I think that's

33:02

just not a valid concern. And I

33:05

think I'm going to show that and prove that through this cycle,

33:08

that the RNC will remain a neutral entity

33:10

through this process.

33:11

Can you give me an example of a time you pushed back

33:14

against Trump in your time as RNC chair? Oh,

33:16

I'm not going to share my private conversations with

33:18

the president. But I'm saying it.

33:21

Listen, I say if you have a problem in

33:23

your family,

33:24

you don't go on Jerry Springer. I'm not doing

33:26

that. If I have a problem with my family, I keep

33:28

it within the family. That's what we should do.

33:30

But I certainly have given

33:33

the president advice when he was president,

33:35

where we disagreed. That absolutely

33:37

happened. But that's going to stay between him

33:40

and me.

33:41

Part of what I'm getting at here is

33:43

that some of the concerns we'd heard were

33:46

not just that McDaniel would be incapable

33:48

of running a fair and open primary. Given

33:51

the fact that President Trump had appointed her, but

33:54

also that she would be unable to acknowledge the

33:57

real lessons of the midterms. She

33:59

appointed a within the RNC to lead

34:02

a post-mortem. I talked to

34:04

two of its chairs, and they had totally

34:06

different takes on their ability to produce a

34:08

meaningful report. So I wanted

34:10

to ask McDaniel about that work.

34:13

I talked to Henry Barber, one of the people

34:15

who you appointed to lead some of those efforts. He's

34:17

calling what he's up to the 2024 Victory Plan. I

34:21

know some people refer to it as more

34:23

of an autopsy language based on 2012, but

34:25

he made sure to call it a Victory Plan. Is

34:28

that report going to take a clear-eyed

34:30

look at what happened in the midterms, and how

34:32

much can we expect that report to talk

34:34

about Donald Trump?

34:36

I think it's absolutely gonna take a clear-eyed

34:39

look, and I agree with Henry. It's

34:41

a Victory Plan. What

34:43

do we look at? What can we do better? What do we do right?

34:47

It's not just the RNC. It's our whole ecosystem.

34:49

It's what are things that

34:52

outside Democrats are doing that we don't have outside

34:54

Republican groups doing where we could use help. And

34:57

it's gonna be very fair, and

35:00

it will take on everything, and it will not be

35:02

edited to exclude any

35:04

data point that we think is valid. So that's

35:06

all I'm gonna say on that point. I haven't

35:09

seen the report yet. I've really allowed

35:11

the different chairs to work on their respective

35:14

points on it, and then we'll move forward.

35:17

Yeah, well, let's talk about the

35:19

chairs, because we talked to Harvey Dillon at

35:21

the RNC,

35:22

and she said that she didn't really have

35:24

much confidence in the report

35:27

that's gonna come out of the committee. And there was nothing

35:29

about it that really should give us confidence

35:31

about that level of honesty. How

35:33

can we trust that the RNC is going to follow through

35:35

on that process when one of those

35:37

chairs is telling us even before it begins

35:40

that it may not be an honest one?

35:42

Well, I just disagree with that, I think. I mean,

35:44

her meets one of the chairs, so why would she

35:47

waste her time and be chairing a committee if she

35:49

thought it was gonna be useless? She could've said

35:51

no. She could step aside. So she's

35:54

continuing to work hard on that

35:55

report, as are the other

35:58

members who are part of it. I

36:00

am saying as chair of the RNC that we're

36:02

going to take recommendations or whatever we see

36:04

from that report and use that to build

36:07

towards success in 2024.

36:08

Henry Barber told us

36:11

very plainly that he thinks things

36:13

like conspiracy and election denial

36:16

hurt Republicans. Do you share that perspective?

36:19

I want to look at data points. I want to see

36:21

race by race, candidate by candidate,

36:23

what worked and what didn't and where Democrat

36:26

messaging was effective. And I'm not going to get ahead

36:28

of

36:28

our report. I mean, the biggest data point is...

36:31

I'm going to push back a little. Can I ask a question? Let

36:33

me finish my answer. I

36:35

think there's a lot of people just saying,

36:38

this is what it was or here's what was

36:40

wrong here or here's this. And there's going

36:42

to be data that will back that up. So

36:44

let's look at the data. Let's not

36:46

make broad generalizations. I'll

36:49

give you one example.

36:50

People keep saying the RNC doesn't do ballot harvesting.

36:53

We 100% do ballot harvesting. Why do you think

36:55

we won the Duarte seat

36:57

in California? How do you think Ryan

36:59

Zinke won in Montana? So

37:02

I'm hearing narratives on TV over and over

37:04

again,

37:05

saying that certain things happen, that

37:08

the data does not back up. And this report

37:10

will show that. So we'll look at what

37:12

messages worked with candidates and what didn't.

37:15

But I don't think you can generalize

37:17

or overgeneralize and get the correct

37:20

accurate picture. And I'm focused on getting the

37:22

accurate picture, not the media

37:24

narratives.

37:24

I understand that. Sometimes I don't feel

37:27

like I'm really asking about broad narratives

37:29

or things that are outside of data. We

37:31

have that coming from Election Day. Every

37:34

person who denied the results

37:36

of the last election and was a

37:39

contestant in those swing states lost.

37:42

Based on that evidence, do you think

37:44

that issue hurt Republicans in the 2022 midterms?

37:48

Well, I would disagree with that. I disagree with your

37:50

assessment right there. There were many congressional

37:52

members who didn't certify the results

37:54

who went on to victory. So I just

37:57

don't agree with that. I think people

37:59

are allowed to.

37:59

say I have concerns about this election

38:02

and do it in a fair way. And

38:05

many of them did win elections. So

38:07

I just don't agree with that premise. Mm-hmm.

38:09

I guess I just want to try one more time, though. For

38:12

people, you got to respect me trying.

38:14

You got to keep coming at me, guys. You got to respect me

38:16

trying. You want to hear your time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just

38:18

saying for the people

38:20

who we most associate election

38:23

denial with. Well, who? Who are you? Let's talk. OK,

38:26

great. Let's be specific. Get specific. Sure. Get specific,

38:28

then. Let's say someone like Kerry Lake. Let's say someone

38:30

like Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania.

38:34

Let's talk about candidates in Nevada

38:36

or Michigan who were leading the

38:38

Secretary of State slate of Republican

38:41

candidates on those races. Those folks universally

38:44

lost and almost universally

38:45

were rejected by swing

38:47

voters. Independence, who you mentioned Republicans

38:50

had sort of an issue with, is election

38:52

denial and the promotion of that

38:55

issue

38:55

a problem for Republicans? I

38:58

don't think you can say yet or

39:00

even know that that was the issue in

39:02

all of those cases. I think

39:05

Doug Mastriano had

39:07

an abortion,

39:09

no exceptions, including for life of the mother.

39:11

We are seeing that that was a big issue

39:14

in his race. And it affected

39:16

Oz and it affected Tudor Dixon in Michigan

39:18

as well. And it went down ticket, especially

39:21

in Michigan where Prop 3 was on the ballot. So

39:24

I just don't think you can say it was that

39:26

one issue. I think there's a lot of factors

39:29

and components that varied state

39:31

by state.

39:32

What I will say in Arizona is

39:36

Kimberly Yee,

39:37

who ran for treasurer in Arizona, was the

39:39

very top vote getter in the whole state.

39:41

She got more votes than Mark Kelly

39:44

or Pots. So

39:46

it shows you that there is a path

39:49

for a Republican to win statewide

39:51

in Arizona, which gives

39:54

me a lot of hope and confidence towards 2024. I

39:57

also know there were some problems on election day. in

40:00

Maricopa with tabulator machines not working.

40:02

And for Republicans and Democrats, that

40:05

should be totally unacceptable. And we should all

40:07

be looking into that. Everybody should be

40:09

able to go and vote on election day and

40:11

not have the equipment breakdown and

40:13

prevent them from being able to vote.

40:15

I hear you. One

40:17

of the things that I think stuck out from the RNC

40:20

race was your promise to work with

40:22

your opponents, not just Harmeet Dylan, as we mentioned,

40:25

the other being Mike Lindell, who most people

40:27

see as a leading voice on election

40:29

conspiracies. When you promise to

40:31

work with someone like Mike Lindell, what does that mean

40:33

for the RNC? What do you mean by that?

40:36

It means I'm going to talk to him and hear

40:38

his ideas. And certainly

40:42

there were voters at the RNC

40:44

who,

40:45

you know, very, very were very much taken

40:47

with Mike. He was a very nice guy. He

40:50

is willing to help support candidates,

40:52

put money into races and help win

40:55

elections. Listen, I

40:57

want to bring everybody in

40:59

from every spectrum of our party to make sure

41:01

that we're winning elections and

41:05

that we're focusing on beating the Democrats.

41:07

Whatever differences we may have, maybe

41:09

I disagree with a Republican on this

41:12

or that. The things that unify us

41:14

are far more important because we

41:16

are seeing what the Democrats are doing to this country.

41:19

That's how I feel. And I'll work with everybody

41:21

who's swimming in the right direction to win back

41:24

the House, keep the House, win

41:26

back the Senate and win back the White

41:27

House. Lindell told us that

41:29

you've called him several times since the RNC election.

41:34

I don't believe that I'm going to talk

41:36

about my conversations with Mike. I absolutely have

41:38

talked to him. We've just had some conversations.

41:41

Okay. I guess the last question

41:43

I'll ask about this is when we talked to him,

41:45

he said that you made clear to him that

41:47

you agreed that there was voter fraud in

41:49

the 2020 election. Did

41:51

you say that to him?

41:54

I've said this publicly that I thought there were all

41:56

types of problems. Listen, we switched to a completely

41:59

virtual election. with states

42:01

that didn't have the safeguards to go to all mail-in.

42:04

I think it's worth looking at and making sure that

42:07

those systems worked, that

42:09

we didn't have problems. And I think we should be able

42:11

to have a civilized conversation about

42:14

that without attacking people or labeling

42:16

them and saying, yeah, that was a big

42:18

change in our election process, and

42:20

we should make sure it worked. And I

42:22

think there were some issues with the 2020 election,

42:24

and I've never ever shied

42:26

away from that. But

42:28

that wasn't my question. I'm just saying, I understand the

42:30

honest conversation that you say you're trying to have.

42:33

I'm saying, is your support of someone

42:35

like Mike Lindell, who is not doing

42:37

that and is doing something very different,

42:39

how do you justify that? Is

42:41

support of Mike Lindell in line with what you're

42:44

saying about only trying to look to see if

42:46

there was problems? Because he is endorsing a

42:48

global conspiracy.

42:50

I don't know. I'm not talking about that.

42:53

I'm talking about moving forward and working together

42:55

to win elections in 2024. That's

42:57

not what I'm talking about. Yeah, I'm going

42:59

to work with everybody to make sure we're

43:02

looking forward to win elections in 2024. That's

43:05

what I'm focused

43:06

on. The better version of me asking this is can the party

43:08

with somebody and I say, hey, are you going to help elect

43:10

Republicans in 2024? Hey,

43:12

let's get on board. Let's do that. That's that's

43:14

what

43:15

we're going to do. Can the party win back the

43:17

voters it needs to start winning elections

43:19

again, if it continues to bring along

43:21

people who endorse election

43:23

conspiracies that independent voters

43:26

did reject in the last primary?

43:27

So we're going to talk about those things.

43:30

But we're also going to talk about fentanyl,

43:33

an open border, a crime rise

43:35

in our country. We're

43:38

losing some of the faith from some of our

43:40

allies in countries

43:43

that depend on the United States and our leadership.

43:45

So

43:46

the things that bring Republicans together are

43:48

so much more than one issue. And

43:51

I think the media is obsessed with this one

43:53

issue. And that's what you're going to keep talking

43:56

about. And I'm going to keep talking to the American

43:58

people about

43:59

The fact that we have major, massive

44:02

problems right now in this country that

44:04

we need to address and the Republican Party is

44:06

standing where it's always stood, which is

44:08

we need to be working on behalf of

44:10

the American people and giving them that opportunity

44:12

for prosperity, a

44:16

good education, and what America

44:18

stands for. And right now, if you poll

44:21

most Americans, they don't feel

44:23

like we're heading in the right direction and they are

44:25

worried

44:25

about their future. To your point

44:27

about other issues, we were just at CPAC and several

44:30

of the issues that you just mentioned came through loud

44:32

and clear. A vision of America first,

44:35

that's isolationist and anti-China

44:37

panic around transgender identity

44:40

and ongoing war with the so-called deep

44:42

state.

44:43

Is that the Republican agenda for 2024?

44:47

I think if you look at what Kevin

44:49

McCarthy put forward as

44:51

his blueprint for America,

44:54

that's what the Republican Party

44:57

stands for. Let our

44:59

leaders in Congress show

45:02

what we stand for. And absolutely,

45:04

we are for making

45:06

sure that we have a strong America,

45:09

but that does include taking on

45:11

China when they're threatening to invade

45:13

Taiwan and making

45:16

sure that

45:17

we are doing the things that

45:19

we need to do to support democracy and freedom

45:21

around the world. We're not seeing that from Biden.

45:24

It does mean securing our borders, not

45:26

because we don't love people coming into this

45:29

country, but we just think they should come

45:31

legally. It does mean giving

45:33

our kids access to school choice so

45:35

they can have the best possible education.

45:37

Why would we limit a child's

45:40

future based on their zip code? Look

45:42

at how many kids have been lost through

45:44

the pandemic. Millions of kids that have

45:46

never

45:47

logged back on since the pandemic. So

45:49

the Republican Party will continue to stand

45:51

for the things that are going to bring

45:53

better education, freedom,

45:56

safety, and prosperity to our

45:58

country. And I understand that.

45:59

I guess what you lay those you lay those

46:02

issues is coming from the top down, coming

46:04

from the political leaders. I'm wondering,

46:07

do they come from the grassroots? Who

46:09

is determining the direction of the Republican Party

46:11

going forward? Is it folks like you?

46:13

It's right now. It's

46:15

going to be our speaker and

46:17

our leaders in the Senate. It's going to

46:19

be our elected leaders that are going to determine

46:21

the policy. They are the policymakers

46:23

that have been elected to determine

46:26

how

46:26

we govern in Washington. You

46:29

made a pledge. You just said we're right

46:31

at the top. I have two questions. I have two questions

46:33

that will be done. Can I do one last one?

46:35

Because we are above the time limit. So

46:37

we can do one question. We can wrap.

46:39

You have said that you want Republican

46:41

candidates to sign a unity pledge before

46:43

participating in debates. Trump has indicated

46:46

that he is not willing to do that and he has skipped debates

46:48

before. Are you prepared to keep him off

46:50

the debate stage if he doesn't pledge

46:52

to support the Republican nominee?

46:54

Well, let me just start with. How does that square? And

46:57

since I get one question, let me put that another one in there. And

46:59

how does that square with your vision of a

47:01

united Republican Party?

47:03

So this is a pledge that was in existence

47:05

in 2016. So this is not new to the

47:07

party. And President Trump signed it in 2016. This

47:11

isn't about the RNC. This is about the voters.

47:14

And the voters very, very much want

47:16

to see our

47:17

candidates who get on the Republican

47:19

National Committee debate stage say

47:22

that whoever we choose, whoever the voters

47:24

choose to be the nominee, will you support the

47:26

voters and endorse

47:29

that

47:30

candidate and that nominee? And I

47:32

think that's really fair. I think it's a no brainer.

47:35

Why would the voters want somebody to be

47:37

on the Republican Party debate stage

47:39

who won't support the eventual nominee?

47:42

So I think this is pretty

47:45

much a non-issue. It's been signed before.

47:47

I can't imagine that anybody would agree

47:50

to that. Because if we don't, if we

47:52

can't support each other, then how are we going

47:54

to beat the Democrats? It's a pretty fair

47:56

request.

47:57

And I actually think that

48:00

They'll all sign it. And I think in

48:02

the end, we are going to come around our nominee

48:04

and we'll beat the Democrat on the White House.

48:06

Does the RNC position change? I'm sorry, come on. We

48:09

have a lot more over the one question. I'm sorry, just one

48:11

question. Does the RNC, please,

48:14

please, just one more.

48:15

We already gave you the last question. Yes,

48:17

yes, yes, thank you. We really are pressed for time. Thank

48:19

you. Thank you. We can just wrap

48:21

this up. We appreciate it. Thank you, totally. Does

48:24

any of the RNC's position change if Donald Trump is criminally indicted? Again,

48:26

we are... Oh my

48:27

gosh. I am not even going

48:29

to go into hypo-s

48:37

and

48:45

we're looking very forward to a strong,

48:48

robust debate. Unlike the Democrats

48:50

who just changed and manipulated their entire

48:52

primary schedule to make sure that Biden had no

48:55

competition, we're very open

48:57

to having... A lot of people

48:59

on the stage have that dialogue in front of the

49:01

American people not manipulating the process

49:03

to protect a president who won't even address

49:05

the American people. So thank you so

49:07

much. No, thank you. I appreciate your time.

49:10

I really do. Thank you.

49:12

Thank you. Yup. Today

49:16

was an unprecedented day in American

49:18

history. Former President Donald

49:20

Trump arrested and arraigned in a Manhattan

49:23

courtroom.

49:23

Donald Trump tonight now a criminal

49:26

defendant, the first former U.S. president

49:28

to be arrested on criminal charges. After

49:31

Trump's indictment,

49:32

we went back to the RNC to

49:35

ask if Ronna McDaniel had any further comment.

49:38

They directed us to her Twitter account, where

49:41

she characterized the indictment as an act

49:43

of political vengeance. The only

49:46

crime that I have committed is to

49:48

fearlessly defend our nation from those

49:50

who seek to destroy it. Next

49:54

week,

49:55

the Trump indictment.

50:08

Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Whether

50:11

you're looking for a hearty breakfast on the go or

50:13

a mid-morning snack, a McDonald's Steak

50:15

Bagel paired with a refreshing iced coffee is sure

50:17

to hit the spot. If steak patties aren't your thing,

50:19

try a mouth-watering bacon or sausage bagel

50:22

with iced coffee. Either way, your taste buds

50:24

will thank you. I participate in McDonald's.

50:33

The

50:33

run-up is reported by me, Estet Herndon,

50:36

and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin

50:39

O'Keeffe, Luke Van Der Ploeg, and Anna

50:41

Foley.

50:43

It's edited by Franny Cartoff

50:45

and Lisa Tobin,

50:48

with original music by Dan Powell, Marion

50:50

Lozano, and Alicia Butte, Itup.

50:55

It was mixed by Corey Schrepple and Fact

50:57

Check by Caitlin Love. Special

51:00

thanks to Paula Schumann, Sam Dolenick,

51:03

Larissa Anderson, David Halfinger,

51:06

Mahima Chablani, Desiree

51:08

Ibiqua, Renan Barelli, Jeffrey

51:11

Miranda, and Maddie Masiello. If

51:15

you like the show and want to get updates on latest

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51:22

Thanks for listening,

51:22

y'all.