0:00

This year, a very important public

0:02

figure turns Haiti. He sent us

0:04

his wish for his birthday. My

0:06

wish is for everyone to practice

0:08

wildfire safety, because only you can

0:10

prevent wildfires. That sounds easy enough,

0:12

but you don't know who it

0:14

is. Nah, of course you do.

0:17

It's Smokey Bear. Let's all make

0:19

sure Smokey's wish comes true by

0:21

learning his wildfire prevention tips at

0:23

smokeybear.com. Because Smokey Bear lives

0:25

within us all. Brought to you by the

0:27

USDA Forest Service, your state forester in the

0:29

Ad Council. The

0:32

street right over here looked a little

0:34

bit more shady to me. It's

0:37

not too bad though, thankfully. The breezes

0:39

make it nice. Yesterday

0:42

was so hot. It's

0:44

another spring day in Arizona. And

0:46

once again, we're following around a group

0:48

of organizers, trying to reach

0:51

voters on this November ballot initiative that

0:53

would enshrine the right to an abortion in

0:56

the Arizona State Constitution. But

0:58

these organizers, Catherine and Heather,

1:01

are targeting a more conservative suburb of

1:03

Phoenix. And they're trying to

1:06

convince people not to support the initiative. And

1:09

you work at Students for Life? I work for Students for Life, yeah.

1:11

How old are you? I'm 21. Okay. How old

1:13

are you? I'm 16. You're 16? Yeah. How

1:16

did you get involved in this? I got

1:18

involved through a club that's at my

1:20

school. I joined two years ago,

1:22

a year and a half ago, because they started it up and

1:24

I was like, oh, this is really cool. A Students for

1:26

Life club at school? Yeah. Was that high school or was that

1:29

middle school? For me, it was

1:31

eighth grade, yeah. It was eighth grade? Yeah,

1:33

middle school. Yeah. So we do a lot

1:35

with all ages and we also have community

1:37

things as well. For

1:41

decades, the Republican position on

1:43

abortion rights was crystal clear. Overturn

1:46

Roe v. Wade and

1:48

send the issue back to the states. But

1:51

since June of 2022, when

1:53

the Supreme Court's conservative majority did

1:55

exactly that, Republicans

1:58

have faced the question. What

2:00

comes next? In

2:03

Arizona, that question is especially

2:05

important. Because in

2:07

this battleground state, Democratic groups

2:09

have already mobilized around this ballot initiative,

2:13

which is expected to motivate a wide range

2:15

of voters to show up in November and

2:18

could be a boost for Biden. So,

2:21

after spending time with organizers who support

2:24

the ballot measure, this

2:26

week, we explored the anti-abortion movement in

2:28

Arizona, where a

2:30

powerfully motivated group of conservatives in the state

2:33

is continuing to push against the initiative

2:36

and punishing the Republicans, who

2:38

have sought a more moderate position on the issue. Today,

2:43

in part two of our reporting from Arizona, how

2:46

abortion rights are exposing the fractures on

2:48

the right. From

2:51

The New York Times, I'm Estet Herndon. This

2:53

is The Runout. The

3:02

street was your typical Arizona suburb. Quiet, not much grass, some palm

3:04

trees, even an orange tree. No

3:10

one answered at the first

3:12

few houses. We can't

3:15

answer the door right now, but if you'd like to leave a

3:17

message, you can do it now. But Heather and Catherine left

3:19

some flyers anyway. We'll just leave the

3:22

information on your door. The

3:24

most awkward part is when they,

3:26

like, your walkway. You're

3:28

walking away, and then they open the door, and

3:31

you have to decide, am I going to go back and talk to them,

3:33

or just be like, I left it on your door. How

3:36

do you decide? Depending on how

3:38

welcoming, they open the door. They're like,

3:40

hello? A lot of it sounds like journalism familiar.

3:43

I used to have to do a lot of door

3:45

knocking, and you're reading vibes in the moment. Yeah, oh,

3:47

so many vibes. Eventually.

3:56

It's all you know? Yeah, I guess. What can I do

3:58

for you? Hi. the door.

4:00

We're informing people about their local pregnancy resource

4:02

centers. Have you heard of any in area?

4:06

No, no. We can

4:08

just give you the information if you're

4:10

interested. Okay, all right. These pregnancy resource

4:12

centers offer free diapers, formula, pregnancy tests,

4:15

anything that a woman could need during

4:17

her pregnancy. They also offer like paternal

4:19

classes for men who are helping their

4:23

partner. And then we also have this. This

4:26

is our decline to sign information. Have you heard

4:28

of the ballot initiative that's going around in Arizona

4:30

right now for abortion access? Yeah, don't

4:32

worry, I'll sign that when I find it. Oh,

4:34

so we're actually encouraging people not to

4:36

sign it. Why? Generally

4:39

speaking, so this will allow abortion up until

4:41

the moment of birth. Is that something that

4:43

you're comfortable with? No,

4:46

most people aren't. So that's kind of like

4:49

we're offering that information. It'll also remove the

4:51

parental consent law. So the parental

4:53

consent law doesn't allow minors to be taken in

4:55

to get abortions without parental consent. If that law

4:57

is removed, then it'll allow people

5:00

that are trafficking children to go in. Stop with

5:02

that stupid argument. Okay,

5:05

that's a dumb ass argument. Yes, I will

5:07

support this bill actually. Thank you. Have a

5:09

good day. How

5:19

often do you get responses like that? Not

5:21

very often. Most of

5:23

the time, people are very receptive because they do

5:25

have kids and they're like, Oh, I wouldn't want

5:27

my daughter who's 13 years old to be able

5:29

to go in and get an abortion without me

5:32

knowing about it. You

5:34

know, the bill is technically 24 weeks.

5:36

Yes. So it's all viability. And so

5:38

viability, and then it has some exceptions that are

5:40

expanded from other ones. Yeah. Yeah. So

5:43

it says up until viability, but you can

5:45

interfere after for health of the mother. But

5:47

health of the mother is defined so broadly.

5:49

It could literally just mean, Oh, I don't

5:51

like that I gained weight from being pregnant,

5:53

which is like a natural consequence. That's

5:55

what you're saying is leading to argument. You're saying it's up until

5:57

birth, right? Because the law is technically 24 weeks. So

6:01

it is written in a way that persuades people to

6:03

think that it's 24 weeks, but when we really break

6:05

down the language, it would allow it up until the

6:07

moment of birth. Because the exceptions are so

6:09

brah. Right, yeah. This argument that

6:12

Heather makes, that the ballot

6:14

initiative's language would allow abortion up to the

6:16

moment of birth, it's

6:18

misleading. And it's one that

6:20

abortion rights groups reject. Current

6:23

state law permits abortion up to 15 weeks. The

6:26

Arizona ballot measure would allow abortion

6:28

up until the point of fetal

6:30

viability, which is usually defined

6:32

around 24 weeks. Less

6:35

than 1% of all abortions happen

6:37

after 24 weeks. And

6:40

under the ballot measure, any exemption

6:42

following viability will require sign-off

6:44

from a medical professional. But

6:47

that didn't stop Heather and Catherine from

6:49

making the argument. Let's definitely

6:51

try to get back to the house and let

6:53

somebody come back. We

6:55

walked up to a house that had to sign out from. It

7:00

said, grandkids welcome. Parents

7:03

by appointment. Hi, how's

7:05

your day going? That's where

7:07

we met Vicki. Hi, we're informing people about

7:09

their local pregnancy resource centers. Have you heard of

7:11

me in your area? Well,

7:14

no. Yeah, these pregnancy

7:16

resource centers offer free pregnancy tests,

7:18

free ultrasounds, free stuff after you

7:21

have babies and even during your

7:23

pregnancy. Yeah. We

7:25

can give you both of these. We're also asking

7:27

people if they've heard about the Arizona for

7:29

Abortion Access Act. Yes.

7:32

So we're asking people how they feel about

7:34

that. I

7:36

am against abortion. Okay, awesome.

7:40

We're out here asking people not to sign

7:42

for that. It would allow abortion up until the

7:44

moment of birth and it's something that's really scary and that

7:46

we don't want to see happen to Arizona. So

7:49

we're very grateful for your support. We

7:52

also have the New York Times with us if you

7:54

have a minute to share your

7:56

opinion. and

8:00

we're over for the New York Times. We actually

8:02

work for its Politics Podcast and we're following them

8:04

around today, partially to talk to Arizonans about how

8:06

they're feeling and only about this referendum about the

8:08

election because Arizona is such an important state. Maybe

8:10

a couple minutes, I'm just curious on how like,

8:13

you know, we're about to come into a very

8:15

crazy election period. Like how do you, how are

8:17

you feeling about that? How

8:19

are you feeling about the election? Just

8:22

like blue sky first word that comes to your mind.

8:26

I feel that many people

8:28

are deceived and don't really

8:30

understand everything that's going

8:32

on and that they'll listen to

8:35

regular news that is

8:37

not reporting both sides, sad to

8:39

say. Well, one of the reasons-

8:41

It frightens me. One of the reasons we're like talking to

8:43

people so they can tell us what they think we're missing.

8:45

Like what do you think are the things that folks aren't

8:47

reporting on that you're saying you wish they, you heard more

8:50

about? The other

8:52

side, I mean, there's

8:55

so many times they'll report like with

8:57

abortion. They'll report about, oh,

9:00

you know, we want to have more

9:02

abortions. We want to make it available

9:04

for people, but they're not reporting what

9:06

actually happens during an abortion or like

9:09

Israel. They'll

9:11

say, oh, these poor people

9:13

in Palestine and everything, nothing

9:15

about the hostages that were

9:17

abducted or, you know,

9:19

how Israel is just trying to protect themselves

9:21

and keep from being

9:24

annihilated. Do you have an issue

9:26

that you think is most important for you in this election? I

9:31

guess those are my two most important ones

9:33

right now. Can I ask you about

9:35

the specific candidates when you think about Trump and Biden likely to

9:37

be on the ballot again from 2020? Like,

9:39

do you know how you're going to vote? Are you

9:41

a Democrat, Republicans? Do you consider yourself one of those

9:43

identities? There's

9:45

a lot of corruption on

9:47

both sides, but I

9:50

will not vote for Biden. I mean,

9:52

he has just totally destroyed

9:55

this country, and he keeps sending money

9:57

to people. They

9:59

want to kill. us and annihilate us and

10:02

then open borders when you have so

10:04

many people that you don't know where

10:06

they're from and the fentanyl that's happening

10:08

and the child, not

10:11

prostitution, but human trafficking

10:14

and you know all of this that's

10:16

going on and then him and his

10:18

son and he is

10:20

very corrupt and I do not want him president.

10:23

Well, I have some question about Trump. You mentioned

10:25

how you feel about Biden. How do you feel

10:27

about Donald Trump? Well if

10:29

he's the only one running then yes I

10:31

will. I think that he did an awesome

10:33

job as a president. He

10:36

did a lot of stuff that again the

10:38

media just sort of overlooked. He

10:40

says stuff that he shouldn't say. I want to

10:42

smack him. But

10:45

he did so much good. Our economy

10:47

was better. Just overall.

10:49

One of the things that's been

10:51

interesting to me about Trump is he's backed away from

10:53

endorsing a federal abortion ban and

10:55

he's recently kind of been

10:58

like a couple other Republicans who've

11:00

stepped back from really leading on

11:02

a pro-life stance. Does that

11:04

as someone who feels strongly about

11:06

abortion like does that bother you

11:08

any that he seems to have

11:10

stepped away from that? I

11:13

wish he hadn't and yes

11:15

it bothers me but being the man

11:17

he is, he is out

11:19

for votes and sad to

11:21

say a lot of people support

11:23

abortion. So I do

11:25

not agree with

11:27

Trump not really supporting it

11:30

full-heartedly but

11:32

I understand why he's doing it.

11:36

Because for votes? Because many people

11:39

that is a deciding factor for them. If

11:41

they can't have an abortion then they don't

11:43

want that person in. Even if

11:45

it means that that person is going to

11:47

totally destroy America. I mean

11:50

I do think that a lot of elections have told

11:52

us that people are prioritizing that issue at the top.

11:54

The only question I have for you is Arizona has

11:56

changed so much to become a swing state. There's

11:59

been a lot of influx of new people. I

12:01

don't know how long you have been in this

12:03

state or anything. I guess I was just wondering,

12:05

has that been tangible? I mean, has it, does

12:07

Arizona feel like it's changing? Because the numbers would

12:10

tell us that it's becoming a little more liberal,

12:12

that it's becoming more open to Democrats. It

12:14

definitely has become more liberal. I've

12:18

been talking to my husband about moving

12:20

because too many Californians came with their

12:22

liberal ideas. They didn't like what happened

12:24

to California. But then they come here

12:26

and they still want the same thing.

12:29

And destroy our state. It

12:32

makes me angry. But we

12:35

all should have the

12:37

right to vote as we feel. How

12:39

long have you been in Arizona? Since

12:41

84. Thank

12:43

you so much. Do you mind telling us your

12:45

name or how old you are? My name is

12:47

Dickie. I'm in my 70s. Hey, that's all good.

12:50

We're good? Thank you. Thank you

12:52

so much. We really appreciate it. My name

12:54

is Heather. I work with Students for the

12:56

Life of America. Well, God

12:58

bless you. Thank you. I

13:01

just wanted to say we're so grateful

13:03

for your support. Thank you. Don't leave.

13:06

We need all of our Republican voters here.

13:08

We have a daughter and three grandchildren that

13:10

said, no, you can't go, grandma. You have

13:12

to say that. I

13:15

see your sign. Vicki

13:18

is representative of a lot of Republican

13:20

voters right now, who may

13:22

not love that Donald Trump is rejecting the

13:24

idea of a federal ban on abortion, but

13:27

who are unlikely to punish him for it. But

13:30

not everybody in the Republican Party gets

13:33

a pass from the anti-abortion movement. In

13:36

fact, on days when they're

13:38

not canvassing against the ballot initiative, Students

13:41

for Life had begun to target

13:43

a Republican state legislator named

13:45

Matt Gress, who had,

13:47

up until recently, been on their side.

13:51

Now they're handing out flyers with

13:53

his face on them that say wanted

13:56

for the death of countless Arizona

13:58

pre-born babies. And

14:00

we wanted to talk to him about why he's

14:02

become a lightning rod. So

14:09

we said goodbye to Heather and Catherine and

14:12

met up with Gress. Do

14:16

we sound okay? How do we feel?

14:18

Yeah, we're good. Do you have a

14:20

nice podcast voice? You have

14:22

a great podcast voice. And

14:26

we're going to talk to you about the conversation

14:29

that we're going to talk about in the conference

14:31

room at our hotel in Phoenix, right by his

14:33

district. Can you just introduce yourself and tell us what you

14:35

do? Yes, my name is Matt Gress and I'm a state

14:37

representative in the Arizona House representing

14:39

Scottsdale, Arcadia, Paradise Valley

14:42

and North Phoenix. Gress

14:44

is in his first term as a state legislator,

14:47

but he worked in state government before that, under

14:50

Republican Governor Doug Ducey. When

14:52

he initially ran, his platform didn't

14:54

have much to do with abortion. It

14:57

was about education. I'm

15:00

a former school teacher getting

15:02

more money into the classroom, safe

15:04

neighborhoods, ensuring that we

15:07

are supporting our police, as

15:10

well as addressing the serious

15:12

issues down on the border

15:14

and then just keeping taxes

15:17

and regulations low and

15:19

appropriate. Then on

15:21

April 9th, that's when everything

15:24

changed completely. I did not.

15:27

It was not on my bingo card. April

15:29

9th is when the Arizona Supreme Court

15:31

moved to change the landscape of abortion,

15:34

reviving an 1864 law that had been

15:37

on the books since before Arizona was

15:39

a state, a law

15:41

that banned any abortion at any time, except

15:44

if the mother's life was in danger. Yeah.

15:46

Can you tell me like what was

15:48

the immediate reaction when the law went

15:50

into place? So within a

15:52

few hours of the court ruling, I

15:55

came out with a video. I posted

15:57

it and basically said that. I

16:00

do not believe that the Supreme Court's

16:03

ruling can stand and that

16:05

the legislature now needs to engage and

16:07

repeal the territorial law because it is

16:09

not in alignment with the values of

16:11

Arizonans in 2024. Gress

16:14

was initially the only Republican in the

16:16

statehouse to side with Democrats in pushing

16:18

to repeal the law. Eventually,

16:21

two other Republicans joined him and

16:23

the law was overturned. But

16:26

Gress made some enemies in the process. The

16:29

reaction from

16:31

Republicans was

16:34

conflicted because many

16:37

of my Republican colleagues who did not vote with

16:39

me acknowledged why

16:42

I was doing what I was doing. They saw

16:44

the rationale. They obviously did

16:46

not agree with me. And

16:49

we're going to have to agree to disagree on

16:51

this particular issue. Most

16:53

people in the Republican caucus, the ones

16:55

who believed the 1864 law should stand, punished

16:59

Gress for his vote. If

17:01

I understand correctly, you were removed

17:03

from the Appropriations Committee after this vote, right?

17:06

Yes, I was. I mean, that's not

17:08

a small thing. Did the intensity

17:10

of the blowback surprise you any? I

17:23

really applaud the Senate for

17:26

keeping their cool on this. There

17:29

were members of the Senate that wanted Senator

17:32

Shope and Senator Bullock to

17:34

be removed from leadership posts. The

17:37

other folks who joined with Democrats to repeal

17:39

the senator. On

17:41

the Senate side. And they said, well, the

17:44

Speaker punished Matt Gress. You need to

17:46

punish these other Republicans in the Senate.

17:49

And the Senate president, Warren Peterson, said that's not

17:52

how the Senate works. Each member

17:54

gets to vote the way that they

17:56

believe their district wants them to vote. And we're not

17:58

going to punish them for that. So

18:00

I think it's unfortunate,

18:03

but I don't work for the speaker. I work for

18:05

the people of the fourth legislative

18:07

district. And I'm going to continue to do

18:09

what they want me to do, not

18:11

just on this, but on other issues as well. The

18:14

thing is, Gress really believes he's

18:16

helping his party win. And

18:19

that's what I ultimately wanted to talk to him about. For

18:22

you as a Republican, what have the

18:24

conversations been like amongst the party about

18:26

how to find a position

18:28

that both speaks to

18:31

values and has political relevance?

18:33

I think for too long, we

18:36

have seen the extremes

18:39

on both ends. Want

18:41

to pit women against

18:44

new life. I don't

18:46

think that it's a mutually exclusive situation.

18:49

I think we can respect women

18:52

and have policies that protect new

18:54

life, working simultaneously

18:56

together. There's no

18:58

doubt there are deeply held

19:00

views on the existential

19:03

question of abortion. And I'm not

19:05

going to dismiss what some of

19:07

my colleagues believe or review on

19:11

banning abortion outright. I'm

19:13

against abortion. And yet

19:15

I also recognize that abortion is

19:18

necessary with reasonable

19:20

timeframes and reasonable exceptions.

19:23

I mean, it is

19:26

undeniable that that needs to be available

19:28

to women going through certain

19:31

circumstances, especially in the horrific

19:33

situations of rape or incest.

19:36

I think I took the most pro-life position

19:38

that was available. What do you mean? So

19:41

if we were to allow the zero-week

19:44

territorial law to remain in

19:46

place, we would have

19:48

created the perfect conditions for

19:51

the Arizona abortion access to pass

19:53

overwhelmingly in November. You're saying if

19:55

that law was still there, it

19:57

would be easier for the progressive...

20:00

activists who are trying to push the referendum

20:02

in November that would expand

20:05

abortion access, it would be

20:07

easier for that to pass if it was up against

20:09

the 1864 law. Absolutely, because you have nothing

20:12

versus allowing abortion to be

20:14

legal and most people

20:17

recognize that abortion has to

20:19

be available in those

20:21

circumstances when it's warranted. So

20:23

we were going to create the perfect

20:25

condition for, in

20:28

my view, a pretty extreme

20:30

measure like the Abortion Access Act

20:33

to pass overwhelmingly. We have to

20:35

be strategic here because I think

20:37

that most people are in the

20:39

middle and I think

20:42

that since Roe v. Wade was

20:44

decided in 1973, we have done

20:46

a very bad job on the

20:49

Republican side of winning the hearts

20:51

and minds of

20:53

Americans, winning them

20:55

over to the pro-life side. Republicans

20:59

have kind of, they

21:01

had an easy out before Roe v. Wade

21:03

was overturned to say, yeah Roe

21:06

v. Wade should be overturned and

21:09

that was it because no one

21:11

thought that it would get overturned. So

21:13

you didn't really have to do the policy

21:16

exercise at what happens if

21:18

Roe v. Wade was overturned. Where do

21:20

you want the law to stand if it

21:23

was overturned? Exactly, and we didn't, we

21:25

as Republicans didn't have to do the work

21:28

around thinking through

21:30

real-life implications of

21:33

having a policy that is workable and

21:36

reflective of the reality on

21:38

the ground and that aligns with

21:41

the values of the people we serve.

21:43

And then there are those who are

21:45

like, this is a matter of principle,

21:48

this is a matter of moral

21:50

conviction, and despite

21:52

what the electorate thinks,

21:55

we have to stand firm on our

21:58

principles. We've been fighting for outwards. for

22:01

all of this time, now is the

22:03

time to stand firm, a life is a life. Yeah, I

22:05

was going to ask about what you do with

22:07

the kind of moral conviction slice of your party

22:10

because it's not insignificant, you

22:12

know, that's a driving activist and energy base

22:14

for a lot of Republicans. And

22:17

we've talked to so many activists, both

22:19

in Arizona and nationally, who

22:22

describe this in such human rights terms

22:24

that there is no, for them, sense

22:26

of compromise. Can you describe

22:29

how that was received by that wing? And then

22:31

in a larger way, what

22:33

can Republicans do if that group never

22:35

budgets? Well,

22:39

that group does not represent the

22:42

majority of the party. And

22:45

maybe it's going to take this election

22:48

to show some of these individuals and

22:50

even some of them have acknowledged that

22:52

they are in the minority. They acknowledged

22:54

that, but they have deeply held beliefs.

22:56

And again, I'm not going to dismiss

22:59

that, but I'm not going to go along

23:01

with that. It's not

23:03

appropriate for my constituency. And

23:06

when you're talking about widespread

23:08

policy shifts, like

23:12

completely banning abortion after it had been legal

23:14

for 50 years, the

23:19

electorate, the governed, are

23:22

not going to shift like that. Yeah,

23:24

you know, from our perspective, there's

23:27

a lot of interest in how this could affect a presidential

23:29

race. What do you think about that prospect? Like is the

23:31

reason this is happening now also to

23:33

help Joe Biden win in Arizona? I'm

23:37

not sure. I'm not sure the

23:40

reason why proponents picked 2024

23:43

to run the Arizona Abortion Access Act, but

23:45

that's the only issue that the Democrats have to run

23:48

on. It's not the border. It's

23:50

not foreign policy. It's not

23:52

the economy. I

23:55

mean, I'm straining

23:58

to think what else the Democrats Democrats

24:00

have to run on. The problem

24:02

is that voters

24:04

are not single issue voters. They

24:06

have a host of concerns. And

24:09

right now, President Trump is

24:12

in Arizona is leading President Biden.

24:15

And his views and viewpoints, especially

24:18

when it comes to the border, are

24:20

resonating with Arizonans. The Democrats can continue

24:22

to try to focus on abortion to

24:25

hopefully win additional votes. But

24:27

their absence and apathy on

24:29

the border is what will

24:32

ultimately do them in in November.

24:34

So I think as long

24:37

as we stay focused on

24:39

being responsive to where our

24:41

constituents want us to be

24:44

and being able to talk about abortion

24:47

in a responsible way, I do

24:49

think that Republicans have the edge.

24:52

Yeah. In one way, I see how,

24:54

what you're saying, that's all the Democrats have to run on.

24:56

It also makes it seem like that's

24:59

the vulnerability for Republicans in that

25:01

abortion and that the lack of

25:03

kind of a consistent message or

25:05

a lack of maybe a clear

25:07

position on what to do going

25:10

forward is maybe the sticking point

25:12

when we think about optimism come November. Do you

25:14

think by the time we get there, Republicans

25:17

will be united behind 15 weeks or

25:19

will there still be, you know, the

25:21

human rights faction versus another faction or

25:24

specifically on abortion? I think that

25:27

the pro-life coalition will come

25:30

together. The fact is

25:32

the 15-week law is the law of

25:34

the land for all intents and purposes.

25:36

We repeal the territorial law is

25:38

gone. So now the

25:41

pro-life movement has to think, okay,

25:43

we could have a constitutional amendment that

25:45

enshrines abortion in the Constitution, or

25:48

we can fight to defend the 15-week law, which

25:50

was good back in 2022. It

25:53

was considered very pro-life. I

25:56

think that's where the pro-life factions

25:58

are going to ultimately. end

26:00

up. They're upset right now,

26:03

but my hope is that they

26:05

will see the bigger picture. We

26:08

got to be focused on talking

26:10

about abortion in that

26:12

way versus continuing to

26:14

advocate for its complete ban and elimination.

26:16

That's just not where voters are going

26:18

to be. Yeah. Yeah. Great.

26:21

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And I

26:23

think this was really helpful for us. Okay. Thank you.

26:25

Have a great day. Thank

26:27

you. For

26:30

Gress, the most pro-life thing a

26:32

Republican can do is find

26:35

a consensus position on abortion rights that

26:37

meets voters where they are, where

26:40

some abortions are allowed up

26:42

until a reasonable timeframe and

26:44

with reasonable exceptions. And

26:47

its thinking seems to mirror Trump's. It's

26:49

pragmatic and calibrated for

26:51

Republicans to win elections. But there's

26:55

another group that has an increasingly

26:57

loud voice in this debate, pushing

27:00

more extreme measures where people

27:02

like Gress see compromise. These

27:05

are the abortion abolitionists, the

27:07

radicals who refuse to give

27:09

an inch and in doing so

27:12

are boxing the Republican party in. That's

27:16

after the break. This

27:22

year, a very important public figure

27:24

turns Haiti. He sent us his

27:27

wish for his birthday. My wish

27:29

is for everyone to practice wildfire

27:31

safety because only you can prevent

27:33

wildfires. That sounds easy enough, but

27:35

you don't know who it is.

27:38

Of course you do. It's Smokey Bear.

27:40

Let's all make sure Smokey's wish comes

27:42

true by learning his wildfire prevention tips

27:44

at smokeybear.com. Because Smokey Bear lives within

27:46

us all. Brought to you by the

27:49

USDA Forest Service, your state forester and

27:51

the Ad Council. Alright

27:53

guys, how would you describe our podcast?

27:55

Matter of opinion. Uh,

27:58

extremely civilized, exchanged. of

28:00

high-minded ideas. I swear, if

28:02

somebody says dinner party conversation, I'm slapping them.

28:04

It's an airing of grievances, right? Somewhere

28:07

in between, I hope. Maybe the easiest way

28:09

to explain what Matter of Opinion is is

28:12

actually to share what our listeners have to

28:14

say about us. Listener Tobias

28:16

said, Matter of Opinion

28:18

is a great podcast for anyone

28:20

engaged with social issues and politics

28:23

on any level. The

28:25

lighthearted but testy conversations about

28:27

truly divisive topics pique my

28:30

interest. Lighthearted but

28:32

testy. That's totally you, Ross.

28:34

I'm putting that on my headstone. My back is getting

28:36

a little sore from all this padding. From

28:40

New York Times Opinion, I'm Michelle Cottle. I'm

28:42

Ross Douthit. I'm Carlos Lozada. I'm Lydia

28:44

Polgreen. And don't just take our work for it.

28:47

Make up your own mind and follow Matter of Opinion

28:49

wherever you get your podcasts. I think you were going

28:51

in there.

28:54

A couple days after talking with Gress and

28:56

going out with Students for Life, Caitlin

28:58

and I drove to Tempe, Arizona, to

29:01

an unassuming office whose location we've been

29:03

asked to keep private. Where? Is

29:06

that over there? We were there to

29:08

meet the pastor of Apologia Church, a

29:10

church focused on anti-abortion advocacy. It

29:14

also has a studio space where

29:16

they broadcast their

29:18

message to more than 500,000 YouTube followers. The

29:22

studio space was in the back of the building. And that's

29:24

where we set up. That's OK. That's all

29:26

I understand. Take your time. There you go. All

29:29

set. There were classic movie posters

29:32

on the wall next to another poster that said, babies are murdered

29:35

here. Can

29:38

you introduce yourself on mic? Yeah. Can you just tell

29:40

me what you do? Yeah, I'm passing the mic.

29:42

I'm going to do it. I'm going to do

29:44

it. I'm going to do it. Tell me what

29:46

you do. Yeah, I'm pastor Jeff Durbin, a pastor

29:48

at Apologia Church. I'm also the head of End

29:51

Abortion Now and Apologia Studios. Jeff

29:53

Durbin is 46, a

29:55

father of seven, including three

29:57

adopted children. and

30:00

their two newest babies were waiting in the

30:02

lobby of the building as we spoke to him. He's

30:05

also a grandfather of six, and

30:08

he has a colorful backstory. Yeah,

30:10

so I wasn't raised in an explicitly

30:13

Christian home and heard the gospel for

30:15

the first time when I was

30:17

16, had a profession of faith, moved to

30:19

Arizona because at the time I was the

30:22

national champion in martial arts.

30:24

I was a full-time professional competitor and did

30:26

a lot of different projects. Like when I

30:28

was, I turned 18, first thing

30:30

I did was I was with Mortal Kombat, the

30:32

live tour. Did a lot

30:34

of different projects like stuff in the Ninja Turtles

30:37

franchise and video games and things like that. So

30:39

that brought me out to Arizona to

30:41

teach martial arts and be closer to LA.

30:43

And my life had a real

30:46

transformation after about a year long

30:48

pursuit of drug addiction, drug and

30:50

alcohol addiction. God got a

30:52

hold of my life and my heart and changed my

30:54

life. Durban started Apologia

30:56

Church in 2010. He says about a thousand

30:58

people come

31:01

to services on a good day. Durban

31:03

and Apologia have become synonymous

31:06

with anti-abortion activism in Arizona

31:09

and what's called abortion abolition. Yeah,

31:12

so the issue of abortion

31:14

abolition is an issue that

31:16

focuses in upon equal protection

31:18

for all humans. It's a

31:20

focus upon consistency, no

31:23

compromise. The abolitionist says it

31:26

is fully human and in the image

31:28

of God from fertilization and we must

31:30

protect all humans and give them equal

31:32

protection. In Durban's view, people

31:35

who seek abortion should be punished.

31:37

Abortion should be considered a crime.

31:39

It should be considered a murder.

31:42

You're unjustly taking the life of a human

31:44

being and so that's murder. And

31:46

what I've said is what is the historic

31:49

position of the Christian church, that

31:51

if you take the life of a

31:54

human being unjustly, then what the state

31:56

owes you, if it's proven and it's

31:58

true, is capital punishment. forfeits your

32:00

right to live. However,

32:02

in this nation right now,

32:04

we have strayed so far

32:06

from just standards of accusation

32:08

and prosecution that I

32:10

can't even say, and I won't say

32:13

that I want capital punishment in any

32:15

particular state because it could have an

32:17

unjust system that leads to that capital

32:19

punishment. So do I believe in capital

32:21

punishment for murder? Do

32:23

I believe that we are in the place

32:26

right now or we can employ that with

32:28

trust to our judicial system? Absolutely not. Members

32:31

of Durbin's Church have done some things you'd

32:33

expect, like protesting at Planned

32:35

Parenthood. But one of the things

32:37

that makes them different is that

32:39

they also focus their efforts on pressuring

32:41

conservatives who seek to compromise on

32:44

abortion rights. The pro-life lobby will

32:46

really boast in the fact that they are

32:48

not explicitly Christian. They're opposed

32:50

to using the biblical worldview

32:52

and biblical standards as explicit

32:55

in the legislature. The

32:57

pro-life establishment does

32:59

not want to abolish abortion. They

33:01

do not believe in equal protection for all humans

33:03

from fertilization, though they say they do. They do

33:05

not. So you'll see pro-life

33:07

legislation, like you can kill

33:10

the children under 15 weeks, but not

33:12

over, or 12 weeks, or heartbeat. So

33:14

the pro-life lobby, the pro-life establishment

33:17

actually believes in partiality. They're

33:19

inconsistent, wholly inconsistent, and

33:22

that's the issue. I really

33:24

wanna talk about actually the post-stops, but

33:27

I think that was helpful context. When the decision

33:29

came down, what was your initial thoughts? Thankful

33:33

that God strikes straight blows with

33:35

crooked sticks. Am I glad that

33:37

Roe is out of the way via that decision? I'm

33:40

glad it's no longer gonna be able to be used

33:42

as an excuse by pro-life

33:44

legislators and leaders. I

33:47

believe that the decision itself, however,

33:49

was evil in

33:53

terms of the justices actually

33:55

just washing their hands of it and saying to

33:57

the states, you decide if you wanna kill them.

34:00

I don't think that was a consistent or just

34:02

decision. I think that it was cowardly. To be

34:04

clear, you're saying that the delegation

34:07

to the states is

34:09

one that you find cowardly because you

34:11

would prefer them to just to outlaw

34:13

abortion directly. I would prefer the Supreme

34:15

Court be consistent, even the judges that

34:17

have pro-life commitments, that they'd

34:19

be consistent with how they address an

34:22

issue like abortion and not simply say,

34:24

I believe it's fully human from fertilization,

34:27

but I'll go ahead and let the states decide if they

34:29

want to go ahead and oppress these human beings. To

34:32

your point, it has really thrown

34:34

the Republican pro-life position in flux.

34:37

For so many years, it

34:39

was just the refrain of eliminating Roe,

34:41

and now we have seen a kind

34:44

of open question in a lot of

34:46

states about where a lot of these

34:48

legislators fall. This is a big issue

34:50

here in Arizona, but I first wanted

34:53

to ask about national folks, too. We've

34:56

seen Donald Trump, frankly, step away

34:58

from calls for a federal abortion

35:00

ban. We've seen Republicans in a

35:02

Kerry Lake step away from calls

35:05

for a federal abortion ban.

35:07

What is your reaction to just

35:09

the way national or kind of

35:11

big name Republicans who were pro-life

35:13

and anti-abortion four or five years

35:16

ago have kind of become pro-state

35:18

decide on its own? Yeah. I

35:22

think it's demonstrating that a lot of

35:24

these politicians are not as committed to

35:26

the principles they say they are, and

35:28

they're, in fact, charlatans. I

35:30

believe this for votes. I believe this for the

35:32

crowd, but I don't actually believe it in principle.

35:34

And so I think what Donald Trump

35:36

did and how he came out

35:38

was it exposes his inconsistency, but it also

35:40

demonstrates that he doesn't really believe what he

35:43

says he believes, and the same for Kerry

35:45

Lake. And so you're right.

35:47

There's been a big revealing after

35:49

Dobbs as to whether or

35:51

not people actually believe this. I

35:54

have no affinity for the Republican Party.

35:56

My challenge to them

35:58

all would be to say, you guys.

36:00

don't really believe what you say you

36:02

believe. You're inconsistent and that

36:05

inconsistency is so obvious, your opposition

36:07

knows you don't really believe it.

36:10

The pro-life establishment is not working for abolition

36:12

in the end of abortion. They're not ultimately

36:14

aimed at equal protection and

36:17

abolishing abortion like say

36:19

we did slavery. It's a

36:21

crime. It doesn't matter who does it.

36:23

There is no one getting out of the

36:25

justice that will be served. If you kidnap

36:27

and enslave any of our black brothers

36:29

and sisters, you will be punished. And we

36:32

don't care who you are or where you're

36:34

involved in the process, right? You're all guilty

36:36

and we're going to punish you. That's

36:39

abolition. And these

36:41

pro-lifers don't actually want abolition. Like

36:44

looking ahead to November in Arizona, 1864 law is

36:46

gone. Yep. Like

36:49

what's the plan in terms of the current

36:51

political reality around abortion in Arizona? Yeah,

36:53

that's a good question. So in

36:56

terms of methodology and strategy and

36:58

establishing justice, if you're consistent

37:00

at the bottom, you don't need to

37:02

change your strategy. You're aiming at the same

37:04

thing. Equal protection for every human being. Nobody

37:07

is to be treated differently. And

37:09

so in terms of what we're trying to do, it's

37:11

the same thing we've been doing. Bills of abolition, equal

37:13

protection, in whatever way we can get it. But

37:16

in terms of this ballot measure, the

37:18

ballot measure would mean that

37:21

post-Roe, we would have

37:23

the bloodiest and most brutal part of

37:25

this Holocaust just beginning from my perspective.

37:28

So it's very serious that we focus on

37:30

the ballot measure. And

37:32

we are, we are working

37:35

very, very hard right now around the clock.

37:37

And I cannot say what

37:39

we're doing to make sure that this

37:42

ballot measure doesn't take place. Why

37:44

can't you say what you're doing? Because there's too

37:46

many people working on it. And I

37:48

know that the opposition has a lot

37:50

of money and they have, I'm

37:53

not gonna reveal them and I mean

37:55

what my plans are. And they're all

37:57

peaceful and all legal remedies to deal

37:59

with. with the ballot measure. But we're

38:01

working very hard right now. And there are a number of

38:03

organizations that are working together with us. As a matter of

38:05

fact, Apology at Church is leading this. And

38:08

if we get to the point where it is on

38:11

the ballot, or is the goal right now to just keep it

38:13

off the ballot? The goal right now is to

38:15

kill the ballot measure. Yeah.

38:18

There's no insight legally, or to not

38:20

get enough signatures and validate the signatures,

38:22

we can't get any visibility there? You can't.

38:25

Okay. Is there any point of

38:29

defeat here? Like if we get enough of these

38:31

in a row, like let's say Arizona backs the

38:34

access bill. That is so far

38:36

from abolition. Would

38:38

that change anything that you all do? No. No.

38:42

Because the problem is the same, the message is the same. And

38:44

I keep bringing it back to this, just

38:47

in terms of it's something fresh in many people's minds,

38:49

in terms of in our own nation's history, people

38:51

still fill the wounds from it, right? The issue of

38:53

slavery. There was a heck of

38:56

a lot of resistance to the abolition of

38:58

slavery. And a lot of people are

39:00

saying, this isn't gonna end, it's just gonna keep going. And

39:03

it was, I think, just a grace of God

39:05

that light really started to shine in people's hearts

39:07

and minds to love another person like God calls

39:09

us to. And that's how it happened. Also a

39:11

huge war. Well,

39:14

and where we are in the civil war.

39:16

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually

39:18

believe that the civil war was judgment

39:21

in our nation for doing such a

39:23

wicked thing for so long. Yeah. Do

39:26

you vote? Yeah. When I

39:28

think about the presidential election, like how do you view this

39:30

issue in terms of, I imagine,

39:32

two choices now that at least

39:34

in terms of major party candidates have

39:36

stepped away from the idea of

39:39

a federal abortion ban or really embracing abortion

39:41

as a thing to be restricted at the

39:43

national level. Where does that leave you? So

39:47

you heard me say that I have no affections

39:49

ultimately for the Republican party or anything like that.

39:51

What I'm looking for is consistency and principle. But

39:54

we're obviously, from my perspective as a

39:56

Christian, as a pastor in a very

39:58

difficult moment because it would seem like

40:00

a very difficult moment. seem to be

40:03

that both candidates, whether it's Biden or

40:05

Trump, both have radically unchristian worldviews on

40:07

so many issues. And so

40:09

it becomes very challenging. I'm not saying that as

40:11

a Christian you need to have the perfect candidate.

40:14

But you're right on this issue, it becomes very challenging

40:16

for someone like me. I don't

40:19

idolize Trump. I'm thankful for some of the things that

40:21

he did that are consistent with the Christian worldview. I'm

40:23

thankful for a lot of those things. But

40:25

at the same time, I think it's important to

40:28

call out where he is inconsistent and where he

40:30

demonstrates that I'm more concerned with votes than I

40:32

am lives. I think the

40:34

idolatry of Trump amongst Christians in America

40:36

is shameful. But

40:38

I'm hearing he's more likely to get your

40:40

vote. Trump? Yeah. Right

40:43

now I do not have any position on

40:45

it at the moment. I'm hoping to see

40:47

light and consistency

40:50

happen. But yeah. The

40:53

last question I have is it

40:55

seems like the Republican Party, even

40:57

though it's not something you personally

40:59

identify with, is in a rock

41:01

and a hard place, partially because

41:04

of the advocacy of abortion abolitionists.

41:06

That has historically been a huge

41:08

energy and activism base for them

41:10

and a source of money. And

41:13

they have really calibrated their message around

41:15

some of that activism. And

41:18

it does seem like right now

41:20

their desire to reposition is being

41:23

pulled from the desire to

41:25

win votes as you have identified and

41:27

folks like you who are,

41:30

as they do that pivot, calling them out.

41:34

Right. In their dream world, I imagine you

41:36

all become more open to compromise and just

41:38

let them pivot. Yeah. But that

41:40

doesn't seem likely. Not if your

41:43

commitments are first and foremost to

41:45

the authority of Christ and the

41:48

word of God. No, we're not going

41:50

to change because the word of God doesn't

41:52

change. The Christian worldview is consistent in this

41:54

area. The problem we have right

41:57

now politically is there's so many people who

41:59

are just in this as a career and

42:01

it's just pretend. It's just something you say

42:04

for votes. And I

42:06

don't wanna live that way. I wanna live in such a way that

42:08

I actually believe what I say I believe. And

42:11

if I say this human being is valuable, I act like

42:13

that's true. Would you rather Carrie

42:16

Lake and Donald Trump lose with

42:19

endorsing abortion abolition or

42:21

win if it required stepping away? I'd

42:24

rather see them lose being consistent. Yeah,

42:27

because I think what God shows

42:29

us over and over and over again is that

42:32

what he blesses is faithfulness in

42:34

his people. And at times he

42:36

will change history with the smallest

42:38

numbers of people through faithfulness. So

42:40

yeah, would it be

42:42

devastating to this nation to see more

42:45

from my perspective, economic

42:48

injustices that are promoted by socialists

42:50

and Marxists and things like that,

42:52

would it be devastating to have

42:54

them employ more of their worldview

42:57

with regard to children and sexuality?

43:00

Yeah, that'd be devastating. And I don't want

43:02

that for our nation. But what

43:04

I do want is to see actual transformation

43:06

take place. And if that means that you

43:08

have to lose an election because you're being

43:11

faithful and consistent, I'd say God will

43:13

bless that. Yeah, cool.

43:15

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This

43:17

was helpful. Absolutely. I really enjoyed talking to you.

43:20

Your point about the idolatry of Trump is interesting.

43:22

Yeah, yeah. And I do think the way that a

43:24

lot of like conservative evangelicals

43:26

have started to talk about Trump feels different

43:29

than any kind of politician relationship I've seen. It

43:32

is interesting. And the thing I thought was the most disturbing

43:34

thing to me is we went during

43:36

the Capitol breach, wasn't there,

43:38

I didn't do that. We

43:41

were there just on the ground that day to

43:43

just provide like Christian media coverage of like this

43:45

whole thing. And then that

43:47

whole thing went off. We were a ways away. We

43:50

did some stuff saying, this is not the way you do

43:52

things. This is not the way Christians should approach this. But

43:55

the thing that was, I think most disturbing to me the whole

43:57

day was the

43:59

idolatry. It was Christians with

44:02

big signs of like, you know, Jesus hugging

44:04

Trump or like a Trump and Jesus on

44:06

a cross. It was like the most disturbing.

44:09

You see it in some of the rallies. Gross thing imaginable.

44:12

And it was just one sign after another

44:14

that was so offensive. So

44:21

when it comes to Republicans and abortion rights, there's

44:24

enough finger pointing to go around. People

44:27

like Matt Gross want compromise, which

44:30

is anger pro-life activists like Students for Life. And

44:33

hardliners like Pastor Jeff Durbin are

44:36

upset with both groups for not going

44:38

far enough. This

44:41

division could represent a problem for Republicans

44:43

in November, the first

44:45

presidential election since Dobbs. Because

44:49

now that Roe is overturned, the

44:51

anti-abortion movement has lost its chief

44:53

organizing principle. And

44:56

in doing so, created one

44:58

for the Democrats. This

45:13

year, a very important public figure turns

45:15

Haiti. He sent us his wish for

45:17

his birthday. My wish is

45:19

for everyone to practice wildfire

45:21

safety because only you can

45:24

prevent wildfires. That

45:26

sounds easy enough, but you don't know who it is. Of

45:29

course you do, it's Smokey Bear. Let's

45:31

all make sure Smokey's wish comes true

45:33

by learning his wildfire prevention tips at

45:35

smokeybear.com. Because Smokey Bear lives

45:38

within us all. Brought to you by the

45:40

USDA Forest Service, your state forester, and the Ad

45:42

Council. Hi. That's

45:45

the run-up for Thursday, June 20th, 2024. And now, the

45:47

rundown. The

45:52

work Jeff Durbin is doing in Arizona is just one

45:54

piece of how religious conservatives are organizing to push abortion

45:56

abolition and other causes

46:00

and oppose for a world, to

46:03

understand how that work is unfolding nationally

46:05

and how it might show up in

46:07

November. I called a

46:09

colleague. I'm Elizabeth Dias.

46:11

I am the national religion

46:13

correspondent for The Times, and

46:15

I write about the anti-abortion

46:17

movement and especially the conservative

46:20

Christian power involved

46:23

in advancing the anti-abortion

46:26

cause. Yeah, and we

46:28

recently just spoke to Lisa Lehrer, who

46:30

co-authored a book with you that is

46:32

titled The Fall of Roe, specifically around

46:35

these issues. How would you describe the

46:37

goal of the anti-abortion movement in this

46:39

post-row era? Well,

46:41

their ultimate goal is the end of

46:43

all abortion, right? The fall of Roe

46:45

was the beginning in a way, not

46:47

the end. And it's

46:50

a movement that thinks in these

46:52

long arcs, right? I think in

46:54

generational terms. So even though now

46:56

there's been this enormous backlash to

46:58

the overturning of Roe from liberals,

47:01

moderates, even some conservatives who were not

47:03

happy with that decision, they are

47:06

looking ahead to

47:08

what are the kind of tactics that they

47:10

need ultimately to push ahead with

47:12

their goal. So they're

47:15

finding some success, of course, in

47:18

conservative pockets and conservative

47:20

states and among

47:22

the true believers of

47:24

their cause. You

47:26

know, I know you covered the religious angle

47:28

of this. You actually talked to the pastor

47:31

that we spoke to in our episode today.

47:33

How is this issue playing out amongst the

47:35

religious right? Are they aligned on what to

47:37

do next regarding abortion rights? They're

47:41

splits. The pastor, Jeff Durbin,

47:43

that you spoke with for your episode,

47:46

he's on what many would

47:49

consider the fringe of the

47:51

anti-abortion movement, but it's

47:53

a fringe that's been gaining a

47:55

lot of traction. And that's a

47:58

segment of the movement. this whole

48:00

movement that we see doubling

48:03

down, hardening across areas

48:06

of politics, public

48:08

policy efforts that

48:11

really is doubling

48:13

down with the conservative

48:16

Christian vision and following

48:18

it through to its logical conclusion. We

48:21

see that in places like the

48:23

Southern Baptist Convention, opposing IVF. We

48:26

see it with some of the

48:29

Republican lawmakers who are in the

48:31

MAGA movement and the anti-abortion movement

48:33

where those things kind of mingle

48:35

together in states and places like

48:37

Arizona, for example. Are

48:40

there any notable anti-abortion candidates running on

48:42

further restrictions in this climate? What are

48:44

you watching for when it comes to

48:46

November? Well, it's been

48:48

really interesting watching Republicans, even

48:50

those who have been staunch

48:52

anti-abortion supporters, even former President

48:54

Trump, who made so much

48:58

of his platform was his support for

49:01

the anti-abortion movement. They've been really

49:04

running away from the cause in many

49:06

ways. What was the political advantage to

49:08

them before Roe fell is

49:11

clearly not right now. And I think

49:13

the politicians often see that, especially if

49:15

they're in moderate districts, restrictions

49:18

on abortion, cracking down on

49:21

IVF. These are very unpopular

49:23

positions and Republicans

49:25

know that. Thank

49:28

you so much, Elizabeth. We appreciate your time.

49:31

Thanks so much for having me. It's good. There

49:36

are 25 days to the Republican National Convention,

49:38

60 days until

49:40

the Democratic National Convention and 138 days

49:43

until the general election. We'll

49:47

see you next week. Thanks

49:57

for watching. Run

50:00

Up is reported by me, Esteb Herndon, and

50:03

produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Kaitlyn O'Keefe,

50:05

and Anna Foley. It's

50:08

edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin,

50:11

with original music by Dan

50:13

Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker,

50:16

Diane Wong, Sophia Landman, and

50:18

Alicia Beitout. It was

50:20

mixed by Sophia Landman and Fact Check

50:23

by Will Paisho and Kaitlyn Love. Special

50:26

thanks to Paula Schumann,

50:28

Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson,

50:30

David Halfinger, Maddie Masiello,

50:32

Mahima Chablani, Jeffrey Miranda,

50:34

and Elizabeth Brista. Do

50:37

you have questions about the 2024 election? Email

50:40

us at therunupatnytimes.com. Or

50:43

better yet, record your question using the voice

50:45

memo app in your phone. That

50:47

email again is therunupatnytimes.com.

50:51

Thanks for listening, y'all. Of

51:16

course you do, it's Smokey Bear. Let's

51:18

all make sure Smokey's wish comes true

51:20

by learning his wildfire prevention tips at

51:22

smokeybear.com. Because Smokey Bear lives

51:24

within us all. Brought to you by the

51:27

USDA Forest Service, your state forester, and the Ad

51:29

Council. Council. Hi.