0:00

Tiki Taka was common. Xavi and Iniesta

0:02

tipping the ball back and forth. Galway are a

0:04

lot further ahead than was common at this. But was common,

0:07

as Ger said, are gonna do damage in this championship.

0:09

Subscribe to the OTB GAA podcast

0:12

feed wherever you get your podcasts. OTB

0:16

AM with Gillette Labs. Get

0:19

the ultimate shave or your money back.

0:21

Neon Night Edition available now. Now

0:23

I'm glad to say Keith Wood is with us. Keith, good morning to you. How

0:25

are you?

0:26

I'm very good, Ger. How are you? I'm very

0:29

well. There's a couple of big stories that

0:31

we should talk about.

0:33

Finally, the entire country is united behind

0:36

Ronn Lagara and La Rochelle this weekend. Because

0:38

if La Rochelle beats Toulouse in

0:41

the final, then Munster fans will be

0:43

happy because it's one of their own doing really well. And Leinster

0:45

fans are gonna be happy as well because in the

0:47

newly fixed or nearly fixed

0:51

European Champions Cup, Leinster are back into

0:53

top seeds as a result of

0:55

being beaten by La Rochelle. I don't

0:57

know if you've had a chance to look at the actual

1:00

new pool system, but

1:02

we're getting back to something

1:03

slightly better if it's

1:06

not still quite fixed. No,

1:08

no. I will admit

1:10

I kind of really lost the will to

1:12

go on when I was trying to read

1:14

it. Competition should be very

1:17

simple.

1:20

But none of this is simple. Different

1:23

teams can't be in different groups. Different

1:26

teams don't play against different groups. It's

1:29

trying to find a mix that suits everybody.

1:32

And it's a compromise that I think is

1:34

just a little bit frustrating. I mean,

1:36

ever since they've tinkered with us and

1:39

it wasn't perfect before. And I know we

1:41

often think it was. It was absolutely

1:44

beneficial to the Irish teams the way it

1:46

was before. Partly

1:50

because the Irish teams are always guaranteed

1:52

to be in it. And by playing

1:56

in it every

1:59

season,

1:59

single year you get used to it and you understand it

2:02

a bit more and it was different

2:04

then in almost a pure meritocracy

2:06

for the other teams. But now there's so many teams

2:08

that are in it.

2:11

It is

2:13

chopping and changing consistently.

2:17

They haven't it right, I think, but I

2:19

think they need to get it right over the next couple

2:21

of years just to try and have it where

2:24

it is seamless. Now,

2:26

and the reason I say that previously wasn't right,

2:28

there were a few Ted Roberts and there was a few French

2:30

teams who didn't take the games seriously

2:33

enough. But in the last year

2:35

teams didn't take some of the

2:37

matches seriously enough because they didn't have

2:39

to. They could have qualified by

2:41

winning one match pretty much. So

2:43

I think this looks a little

2:44

bit better, but it's a work in progress.

2:47

Definitely a work in progress. There's going to be a seeding system

2:50

on the basis of different teams playing

2:52

each other and results and it's kind of difficult to see

2:55

exactly how that's going to end up working out. Whereas

2:57

previously you had two teams coming

2:59

out of groups. Now, the issue there was that

3:02

if you got drawn with one of the Italian

3:04

sides, it was a routine five points

3:06

and that ended up skewing who got home advantage.

3:09

The Italian teams aren't automatically qualifying anymore.

3:11

And it did like the

3:13

main problem is that they've taken out a couple of rounds

3:15

and rugby is the only sport where

3:17

the European competition is getting

3:20

fewer games than the domestic competition.

3:22

It does feel as if they still quite

3:25

haven't worked out the whole economics of if

3:27

we play more big games, we'll

3:29

get more people to come to them and we should be generating

3:32

more revenue off the back of that. Well

3:35

look, when we start talking revenue, which I think

3:37

we're going to discuss a few other parts for

3:42

the premiership and for the

3:44

French championship, they don't get paid

3:47

as much money for European. It isn't

3:49

as valuable for them. And for

3:52

the elements of this that are a business, there's

3:54

a large requirement for that to be the

3:56

case. But I think it's all

3:59

going to change. change within England anyway. It would

4:01

say English Premiership going to be down to 10

4:03

teams. Should

4:06

they automatically get the same number of

4:09

teams into the competition?

4:11

That doesn't seem right either because

4:13

it's supposed to be meritocracy, but it's the top

4:15

eight.

4:16

So that's top

4:19

eight out of 10 seems a little bit

4:21

top heavy. Look,

4:25

I just think it's

4:26

I think this year, I think the

4:28

World Cup will take over a huge amount

4:30

of concentration. And

4:33

I think there'll be an awful lot of back channeling conversations

4:35

to try and figure out where we

4:38

can go at the present moment in time. And

4:40

at times we seem funny, I've looked at

4:42

a couple of the notice boards and this people

4:45

seem to be saying, well, look, Ireland's in great shape

4:47

and almost

4:50

glorying in the fact that other

4:52

teams are going or it's not as good in

4:54

England or elements of that, we need

4:56

all the countries to be strong. We need all the teams

4:58

to be strong for it to be a viable, sustainable

5:01

series of competitions. So rugby

5:05

has to have some level of a reset. And we

5:07

discussed this at

5:09

lockdown when we were

5:11

trying to figure out what we were what we were supposed to talk

5:14

about and that the idea

5:16

was there for a reset. But what

5:18

has happened since is it's become more

5:22

financially skewed, more financially

5:25

strained. And I

5:28

think we're in a kind of strange period

5:30

of time for the next couple of years. So,

5:32

look, I love the European competition. The Irish

5:34

teams have embraced it more than anyone. Some of the

5:36

French teams have, some of the English teams have.

5:40

There is there is a financial

5:43

model. There has to be through Europe

5:45

and with Europe. It is we

5:48

know it from the crowds that turn up for those

5:50

matches. We know it for the rivalries

5:52

that have have gone over the history.

5:55

Like we talked about Rona Gara at the start, you

5:58

know, he was Mr. European. Cup,

6:00

he still is. And it was built

6:02

on huge series of different rivalries

6:04

with Munster and Gloucester, with Munster and Leinster,

6:07

you know, with Toulouse, with

6:10

Leinster and everybody with Toulon, you

6:12

know, there was huge,

6:14

huge competition, huge rivalries

6:17

that were built up that

6:18

get 30, 40, 50,000 people through

6:21

the gate. And that's what's required. The

6:23

money is obviously the huge thing here, Keith. And

6:25

certainly when you come to the Champions Cup structures, that's one

6:28

of the rationales behind it. And TV

6:30

viewership obviously matters as well. But Jeopardy

6:33

is what sport is all about. And you look at this

6:35

new structure and you're thinking, well, if you win

6:37

a couple of your games, two of your games, you get into the round of 16 basically,

6:40

mismatched opponents at that stage. Like

6:42

I know that the Robie Puris loves the old

6:44

Heineken Cup model.

6:48

You're even looking at them picking four groups of six

6:50

teams. Like could they not have gone for six groups of four

6:52

teams? Maybe I should go. Like, well, the winners go through

6:54

two best runners up. Then it's the two games, the

6:57

two extra games they've taken out. Yeah. That's the thing. But

6:59

I mean, is Jeopardy not the be all land

7:02

all here, Keith, above the money?

7:03

I think Jeopardy is. Look,

7:05

I do think if you look at the

7:08

if you look at the European Cup this year,

7:11

all the home teams won except at

7:13

the very end, you know. And

7:17

so there is there often isn't that much Jeopardy.

7:19

It just hasn't worked as well.

7:23

Look, I think there's a bigger question

7:26

to this than just the the

7:28

European Cup. We've

7:30

said this, you know, when we were trying to

7:32

figure out rugby, I think it was

7:35

during the lockdown, we were having lots

7:37

of conversations over

7:40

sustainability, both in terms

7:42

of travel and in

7:44

terms of financial and

7:46

the

7:48

sustainability in terms of player

7:50

welfare and the length of the season

7:53

and all those different component parts.

7:56

If the season is forty

7:59

two or forty four.

7:59

weeks long, it's too long. So there

8:03

has to be a coordinated effort between

8:05

the leagues. It has to be better than it

8:07

is at the moment. There's still, it's too

8:09

many people kind of fighting their corner that

8:12

much. At times it sounds like

8:14

it's going to get better. And in

8:16

some countries it's better. In

8:18

some countries it's a shambles at

8:21

the moment. And the viability of this

8:24

is should you have squads of 55,

8:27

60 people so that you can play all

8:29

these games? And then when you

8:31

do have a squad of that size, are

8:34

the players match hardened

8:36

enough to be able to play at the end of the season?

8:40

Is it financially viable in the first place? If you look

8:42

at Wales, the salary

8:44

cap has gone so low. It's

8:48

a very interesting decision.

8:51

It's like going back to the early days of professionalism.

8:54

The decision is do you work or

8:56

do you play rugby? And it

8:58

may be better off to work. Wales

9:01

is like a whole hour long program

9:03

to get into it, but Gatlin was talking during the

9:05

week. I don't know if it's

9:07

a stereotypical war in Gatlin, like

9:10

if he's just

9:12

lobbing grenades because that's what he does. But he was saying

9:14

that he wouldn't have taken the gig if he'd known how bad

9:16

things were. And Catherine

9:18

was pointing out, pre-show, he's pretty well connected in Wales.

9:21

He knows the crack.

9:23

I

9:24

thought it was a very interesting interview.

9:28

And well, it's as if he went

9:30

into the job without taking any

9:32

view on what was going on there at all. And

9:34

I think most people would do that. And he would be

9:37

very well connected there.

9:39

He tried to explain why some of the players were leaving.

9:42

Some of those made sense. I think there's an

9:44

element of lobbing grenades. I think there's an element

9:47

of taking pressure off the team, which he does

9:49

consistently and taking pressure off himself.

9:54

But yeah, it was kind of an

9:56

unusual element really. And I thought

9:58

it was quite harsh. on Young Hawkins

10:01

who

10:02

had,

10:03

we don't know the circumstances, but

10:05

for a guy who's 20 years of age, he may

10:08

not have been offered a big contract

10:10

and he may have been offered a big contract elsewhere. And

10:13

if you were talking

10:15

and working in a company that was debating

10:18

going on strike in the middle of it and somebody offered

10:20

you a very good contract elsewhere, I think you might go

10:22

there. So, like

10:25

sport is very unusual. The emotional

10:27

tote to sport is

10:29

just

10:32

singles it out as being something unique

10:35

in life really. And you

10:37

can go for your dreams with it. It's been funny. I've been

10:40

talking to a couple of young players recently

10:42

and describing what rugby

10:45

can be for them if they wanted it as a career. And

10:49

it's pretty much an internship for the rest of their life

10:52

because you could play rugby for 10

10:54

or 12 years and retire at 30 years of age

10:57

and then you have another 35 years to work. So,

11:00

what has rugby given you in that period of

11:02

time to be able to build it out for the next 35

11:05

years? So, you can

11:08

start the rest of your life

11:10

a little bit later than you normally would. That's

11:12

a way of looking at it because it's

11:15

so fraught at the present moment in time with

11:17

injury, with financial

11:19

concerns, with the potential

11:21

of clubs. Like any person who signs on with a club

11:25

and suddenly they go out of business. That's a pretty

11:28

horrendous situation. But we

11:30

know it happens all the time in real world. Yeah. Well,

11:32

let's talk about London Irish then because that situation

11:34

has just happened. We were speaking

11:37

to one of the players recently and he was bringing up, I

11:39

think it was Declan Danner

11:41

whose wife also was an employee of the club

11:43

and they have a young family. And these

11:46

are the stories that you

11:49

don't think about when the headline stuff and

11:51

the club and the debt and whether or not they're going to be able to

11:53

play next season.

11:55

But then that collapses and

11:57

all of a sudden that's all that's left is the stories

11:59

of the

13:59

first games I played with

14:03

Monster was against

14:05

the Exiles in London Irish and there's

14:08

a mixture of the two of those and playing

14:11

with Gary Owen over there with them back in

14:13

the early 90s. So it is a

14:16

long, proud history

14:19

but I don't

14:21

think you can just talk about London Irish. I don't think it ends

14:23

with London Irish. I think there's a

14:25

lot of clubs under pressure. The

14:27

amount

14:30

of money that the owners are putting

14:32

in is averaging

14:36

four million a year on top of everything

14:38

the clubs are making. So that

14:40

is not sustainable.

14:42

It's stark as well Keith when you

14:44

look at the Saudi involvement in golf

14:47

and even at Newcastle and the money that Premier

14:50

League football clubs are spending on players at the minute when you compare

14:52

it to rugby it nearly highlights

14:55

it and it's a scary thought

14:57

in some ways. I don't know if it speaks to where rugby

14:59

is at the moment and you see that the club's

15:01

struggling of course in the English Premiership financially but it's

15:04

not in a good place.

15:06

No and I don't go for the comparisons.

15:08

I don't

15:10

think they're big sports and I think

15:12

at times we try and

15:14

drive the idea that rugby is

15:16

as big.

15:19

It isn't. It's a complicated game there's

15:22

been a huge amount of tinkering with the laws

15:24

over the last number of years and even when

15:27

we're talking about qualifications

15:29

for Heineken Cup or European

15:32

Cup or who gets out of what group or where

15:34

or who plays who

15:36

football is incredibly easy.

15:38

The laws are pretty simple.

15:40

Rules and soccer

15:42

the rules are simple.

15:45

It's easy to play. No great

15:48

players play make it look very

15:51

easy and they can great

15:53

players can bring the game to an

15:56

entirely different level but it's a simple

15:58

game that everybody can go and play.

15:59

rugby isn't that and rugby

16:02

still is niche. It's very

16:04

big

16:05

within the areas that it is big if that

16:07

makes sense. So within the established

16:09

countries that play it.

16:12

And it also is a very attractive commercial

16:14

venture for sponsors.

16:19

But it's an incredibly attritional game. And

16:21

so the idea of playing for

16:24

the whole year means you need much

16:26

bigger squads. I mean,

16:29

I think we're at a really strong

16:31

inflection point. I mean, I'm not giving any solution

16:33

here. I think we said recently

16:36

that, you

16:38

know, the game can't afford to pay the salaries

16:40

it's paying. But

16:42

I don't know whether players should play

16:46

for less than those, you know, it's one of those

16:49

absolute impasse where

16:53

if you have someone who's on a couple of hundred grand

16:55

a year and you say that's a good salary, that's

16:57

great. And the next

16:59

salary is 50,000. Is it worth it then?

17:02

That becomes the question. It was the question that was

17:05

there at the start of professionalism.

17:07

And actually it's come back to that point again. Another

17:09

question, Keith, is have we missed the trick with

17:11

Jean Klein or is it all nice and

17:14

relaxed? He's obviously gone after it. South

17:16

Africa, is it mind games from Razi Erasmus?

17:18

Is he trying to get into our heads?

17:20

I think that would

17:22

be probably overstepping it a little.

17:24

I know, Jerry, you asked

17:27

me a question about Jean Klein about how

17:29

he played a couple of weeks ago

17:30

and whether he'd get into the Ireland squad.

17:34

I didn't see him getting into the Ireland squad. I

17:37

said, I don't know that he suited what it was

17:40

that Ireland wanted to do. And

17:42

I'd

17:43

said that his strengths

17:46

are his pinning of the

17:50

scrum, his

17:53

huge work rate, which has become

17:55

huge. I have to say his amount

17:58

of his tackling, his work in the mall.

19:59

World Cup squad but he probably will

20:02

get some game time in the rugby

20:04

championship or whatever that tournament was called these days. And

20:08

you know, I do think fair play

20:10

to him for taking advantage of the rule change

20:12

when it was clear that he wasn't going to play for

20:14

Ireland. And Razi said in fairness

20:16

to them that they voted against the rule change

20:19

but that once the rule change was made, how

20:21

can we benefit from this was his words.

20:23

And that's the, that's the ruthlessness

20:26

of big time professional sport, right?

20:29

Absolutely. There's no point.

20:31

And we definitely have talked

20:33

on this before. There's no point bemoaning

20:36

the fact that there is a law that's

20:39

in there. And if other

20:41

teams follow by it and

20:43

you fall by the wayside, that's you

20:45

can't allow that to happen. So it's an opportunity

20:48

for for South Africa.

20:50

I look I'm a little bit I'm uncomfortable

20:52

that

20:54

we've been healing the

20:56

fear I have is he could end up kicking a 65 meter

20:59

kick to

21:00

win a match against Ireland, which would

21:02

frighten the life out of me or John

21:05

Klein could come in and and

21:09

be a changing force. You know, it's there

21:11

those sorts of things. Do you mitigate against those

21:14

or not? Well, we haven't in either

21:16

of those instances, but it's look,

21:18

there are decisions that are made and you live you live

21:20

by them. But

21:22

look, you have to

21:24

the laws that are put in there are put in there

21:26

for a reason. And they

21:28

coaches coaches, their

21:30

ability to to exploit

21:33

nuance in in law

21:35

is what makes them good coaches. Yeah.

21:37

Whatever they're disposing. I mean, that's that

21:40

is a harsh reality of profession sport. One

21:42

last thing I just wanted to ask you about was the passing

21:45

of Paul Randall. Yeah,

21:46

the judge. Tell

21:49

us about him because a lot of our listeners and

21:51

viewers this morning won't know too much about his playing career.

21:53

No, he played he played 80s

21:56

in the very start of the 90s. I look

21:58

I never played against him.

22:00

I met him on loads of occasions.

22:04

So one of the things I always mark out as a touch

22:06

of quality. Jason Leonard

22:08

took over from

22:11

the judge and

22:13

took his place, but the two of them became unbelievable

22:16

friends. So I always met

22:18

Paul with Jason often.

22:22

And that front row of of probe and Moore

22:25

and Randall were they

22:29

ended up with a front row union club.

22:31

They used to dinners

22:34

and lunches in

22:38

everywhere around the UK and the three of them

22:40

stayed together forever. So there were always great

22:43

regaling stories and everything. But he was a cracking

22:45

player at

22:46

a time when there weren't a huge number

22:48

of matches every year.

22:51

And I can't remember how many how many caps

22:53

he got, but it would have been about three or four times

22:55

that it was being played if he was playing now 28 28. Yeah.

23:01

So that's through the 80s with only sort

23:03

of four or five games a year. And

23:07

now it's up to 10 or 12 years. So but

23:10

he was a good guy, really good

23:12

guy, actually great, great, fun, great guy to have a pint

23:14

with. And he's succumbed

23:16

to motor neuron disease. So that's another

23:18

another

23:19

another one fallen,

23:22

which which is very tough. He

23:24

got diagnosed, I think, very late

23:26

on in last year and his

23:28

passing was very quick, but he'll be sadly

23:30

missed. OK, we leave it there. Good stuff. Great

23:32

to have you back. Thanks a million. Cheers,

23:35

Tans. OCB AM with Gillette

23:37

Labs. Get the ultimate shave

23:39

or your money back. Neon Knight Edition

23:41

available now.

23:44

The great story is my story. It's

23:46

a great book called Drama

23:49

of the Gifted Child. I know I've told

23:52

this story before I think a while ago by Alice

23:55

Miller. And

23:57

I remember meeting a friend for lunch and saying, oh,

23:59

God. I just read this amazing book.

24:01

It's called drama of the gifted child

24:04

and she said oh by Alice Miller and I said,

24:06

yeah and she said, um

24:09

You know, there's a funny story about that. It

24:11

was originally called a

24:15

Drama of the narcissistic child

24:17

and She

24:20

realized the people who need to read

24:22

that would not buy that book So

24:25

she reads she titled it drama of the gifted

24:28

child Really

24:30

took the wind out of my cells, but it's it's it's

24:32

so true and it's a great book

24:35

But listen, you know my shrink just he

24:37

just told me about some quote I want to

24:39

say it's Eckhart Tolle or you

24:41

know, one of those but that the

24:43

greatest and

24:45

Most common, you know human

24:48

struggle is the feeling

24:50

that we are not enough And

24:53

it's that kind of insecurity that drives

24:56

I think obsession with self

25:01

You know, I talked about this a couple specials

25:03

ago. I feel it like I'm a

25:05

real exemplary I

25:07

don't know this feels like I We

25:11

have met the enemy and they are us, you

25:13

know, I am the what I'm talking

25:16

about who know, you know, but

25:17

you know people think

25:20

that Self-deprecation is

25:22

modesty like Oh Kate my

25:25

thighs my shoes my firm ugly my

25:27

this this line this thing All

25:29

that stuff it's not modesty it's it's

25:31

all-consuming it's there's

25:34

no space for anything else It's

25:36

self obsession

25:39

You think Mother Teresa walked around

25:41

complaining about her thighs no,

25:44

she had shit to do and people

25:48

really confuse I think also self-love

25:51

with conceit and The

25:54

truth is they're total opposites,

25:56

you know, if you love and accept yourself

25:58

if you can get to a place

25:59

of where you love yourself

26:02

unconditionally.

26:05

To love yourself unconditionally is

26:07

the absence

26:09

of the obsession with self.

26:13

You're fine with yourself. You can think about other

26:15

things. To love yourself creates so

26:18

much space for other things.

26:20

To be obsessed with self, I

26:23

hate this about myself. I hate this. Or I

26:26

have this or those kinds of things that

26:28

takes up all the air in the room.

26:32

So this was a very long answer

26:34

that did not really answer your

26:36

question, but in my opinion,

26:40

answers a better one. Anyway,

26:43

dad, wherever you are, wherever

26:47

your energy has

26:49

been repurposed, let me

26:51

tell you, we are winding

26:53

down. This is the part

26:55

of the show where I say subscribe, rate,

26:57

and review, wherever you listen to your podcast

27:00

and check us out on YouTube. If you want

27:02

to watch, if you want to watch.

27:06

Bye.