0:01

I am going to be 68 in a couple

0:03

months. I have

0:05

more earthly time behind me than ahead of me.

0:09

How can I live most gently and

0:11

most happily? And what would that

0:13

mean? And what would that look like? After

0:16

the initial relief of retirement, I was, well, I've got

0:18

this bucket list. I've got to get it all done.

0:20

And so I was looking at, do I want to

0:22

go become a harp therapist? Do I want to go

0:25

back to school and get a degree? And

0:27

I also went to every volunteer

0:29

organization I knew, the California Council of the Blind and

0:32

others, and I said, put me to work, put me

0:34

to work, put me to work. And

0:36

guess what happened? I found

0:38

myself with 60-hour weeks busier than when I

0:40

was working, and I was not happy.

0:45

It's time to move from the

0:47

practice of working to

0:49

the practice of living. And

0:54

it's going to be a battle for me always

0:57

to feel that if I haven't structured everything,

1:00

I'm in trouble because I have

1:02

little guilt whips. They're everywhere,

1:04

you know, and they pop out. They

1:06

become problematic if you're trying to be

1:08

a happy person. I

1:11

want to feel more deeply about everything. And if

1:13

I can't feel something, I'm not sure I want

1:15

to spend my time doing it. Welcome

1:26

to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. And

1:28

our guest today is Susan Glass, a

1:30

visually impaired poet who's 10 years retired

1:33

from being an English professor. But

1:35

she's been treating retirement like many do,

1:37

like a job. So for our

1:39

show, Susan tried a lab-tested

1:42

practice to make her retirement feel

1:44

more fulfilling. It's called

1:46

job crafting. And essentially,

1:48

it gives you prompts to reflect on

1:51

what would create more meaning and joy

1:53

in your work. Studies

1:55

show this practice helps us feel happier, and

1:57

like our lives have more meaning, both on

2:00

and off the clock. Later

2:02

in the show, we'll hear from scientist

2:04

Maria Timms on how the practice

2:06

works. We know from

2:09

a lot of research that if the fit between

2:11

the person and the job is good, it

2:13

really helps you to keep a

2:15

healthy, motivated team. But

2:18

first, my conversation with Susan after

2:20

these ads. Hi,

2:24

it's Dacher. If you're like me, you

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3:09

of happiness is proudly brought to you by

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June 2022 and May 2020. 2023.

4:01

Potential savings will vary, discounts not

4:03

available in all states and situations. Welcome

4:07

back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Kilner.

4:10

Today we're talking about work and how we

4:12

can get more happiness out of it. Our

4:15

guest is the poet and retired English

4:17

professor Susan Glass. And

4:19

though Susan hasn't worked for a paycheck

4:21

in 10 years, she's packed her days

4:24

with so many volunteer gigs and passion

4:26

projects that her days are full

4:28

of work all the same. And

4:30

she's needed some help homing in on what

4:32

matters most to her right now. For

4:35

our show, Susan tried a job crafting

4:37

practice. To do it, you reflect on

4:40

how you spend your time, what really

4:42

matters to you, and then

4:44

you brainstorm what changes you can make

4:47

so the task you spend

4:49

your time on feel more meaningful

4:51

and enjoyable. Susan,

4:56

thanks so much for joining us on the Science of Happiness.

4:58

It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.

5:01

I have to ask you, you retired 10 years ago.

5:04

What was retirement like for you initially? And

5:06

why did this practice appeal to you? It

5:10

took me a long time

5:12

to understand what retired meant. And

5:14

I still don't think I understand

5:16

it. And what I really want

5:18

to do is live

5:20

a life that is focused

5:22

in the moment and that is working

5:25

for joy. And I just haven't been able to

5:27

master that too well on my own. And

5:30

when I looked at this job crafting and the

5:32

tasks about figuring out where your time and energy

5:34

and attention is going versus where you want it

5:37

to go, I said, oh my

5:39

goodness, this is something that will really help me,

5:41

I think. What you do in the practice

5:43

is you create this before sketch where

5:45

you think about how you spend your time and

5:48

you categorize the activities and think about the time

5:50

and energy that went into it. Was

5:52

it a lot of energy or a medium amount or

5:54

low? And what did you do?

5:56

What did you write about in this part of

5:58

the exercise? I made lists. The diagramming

6:00

and I made a list of the things

6:02

I was doing. Guide.

6:04

Dog Care to spend a lot of time with

6:07

the guy Douglas medium. And then I had a

6:09

little note to myself that said that's okay because

6:11

we've been a partnership for seven years, so that's

6:13

normal. I'm spending time

6:15

on. Some activities for one of the non

6:18

profits for which I work that frankly are stressing

6:20

me out a little bit because they're more of

6:22

the you know make the data works in this

6:24

stuff and I'm not as good at that. Memoir

6:28

I wrote low time and energy

6:30

and then I. Wrote. Health next

6:32

to it because. It makes

6:34

me panicky to think about that. The

6:37

poetry practice wealth to supposed to be spending more

6:40

time on it than I am, but I have

6:42

to put it is medium and low and it

6:44

should be high so. When I looked

6:46

at my own lists, they made me

6:48

panic. Because. There

6:50

was just stuff everywhere. It's a lot

6:53

like. My drawers with you don't Wanna See

6:55

in my Kitchen written don't. Want to see

6:57

you know is is just as clutter. I.

7:00

Approached it the way I approach everything. This

7:02

is an assignment I must do. And

7:05

I noticed that my dad was hurting

7:08

and I was. Breathing The way

7:10

I breathed when I'm anxious and I thought. Stupid

7:13

where you you know you were supposed to

7:15

do this because you wanted to do this.

7:17

What's going on here And. That

7:19

was when I had of down to

7:21

the last part Where do your passions.

7:24

And as soon as I slip that

7:27

outline over yeah, I started to relax.

7:29

And I started to be able to breathe

7:32

a little better. And so when I stopped.

7:34

Doing this, practice his homework, And

7:38

started. Doing. It to enjoy

7:40

myself and just as something to

7:42

experience. It. Became. Open.

7:47

It. Became like a meadow. It

7:51

became a quieter place and it has

7:53

sunlight in it. and

7:56

that means a lot to me

8:00

What I discovered was that I

8:03

really have been trying to make

8:05

writing a full-time occupation

8:07

for myself. And what I

8:09

found is that I'm not spending my maximum

8:11

time on it. I'm spending a medium and

8:14

sometimes even low amount of time on it

8:16

and then feeling guilty about that. So

8:19

I asked myself, well, why is that? And, you

8:21

know, one thing that came out was because

8:24

there are some other activities that have surfaced that

8:26

are giving me great joy. And

8:29

I realized that what I wanted to

8:31

do was shift the priority. I do

8:33

not have to make writing

8:36

the central practice. I can let

8:38

writing be part of the scaffolding

8:40

that guides the activities I am

8:42

really enjoying, such as being

8:45

outdoors with the animals, birding,

8:47

teaching people about ecology, and

8:49

that's giving me extreme happiness.

8:59

What a shift in focus. What a shift in focus.

9:01

And so I thought, well,

9:03

okay, I have one book under

9:05

my belt, a poetry chapter book. If

9:08

you never wrote another one, would

9:11

there be an earthquake? Well, no, probably

9:13

not. Nobody would. And, you

9:15

know, is the planet going to start spinning backwards?

9:17

I don't think so. Here's

9:20

what happened. The minute I released

9:22

myself from that, you must. I'm

9:25

writing. I signed up for a month

9:27

long, you know, a poem a day, poetry content, and I'm

9:29

having a blast. But it's

9:31

not driving me crazy. So

9:34

I think this is just, you know,

9:37

letting joy guide the way instead of

9:40

insisting that projects guide the way. I'm

9:42

starting to have that, that

9:45

can, I just took a deep breath. I start,

9:47

I'm starting to have that content place that we

9:49

get where you say, oh, thank

9:51

God. And that's what I'm needing more of.

9:55

The Last part of the practice is

9:57

to make an after diagram where.

10:00

You. Look at how you've adjusted your time

10:02

and energy that you spend on things and

10:04

I'm curious what this last part of the

10:07

practice in a drawing out this after diagram

10:09

revealed to you. Well. It revealed

10:11

to me that I'll need to have

10:13

a couple hard conversations. I will probably

10:15

step back from a board on which

10:17

I'm working. And. I'm starting to

10:19

cross off of the list the pieces

10:22

that I can let go. It's.

10:24

Like. Taking. Weight off a

10:27

horse, You know. Bundle by bundle. And

10:29

what I want to do now is each

10:32

day look at my list and say is

10:34

there anything I don't need to do. If

10:37

this doesn't happen today, Is.

10:40

It a big deal and is it never happens.

10:42

Is it a big deal? So it's a

10:44

matter of questioning all the time. And

10:47

the action plan for me is. I

10:49

am going to release. I've. Got

10:52

a release what isn't working

10:54

and. I'm remembering something my

10:56

mother told me when I was a child. She said,

10:58

honey, if you let go of something, you give someone

11:00

else an opportunity to do it. If it's

11:02

really important, someone else will take it

11:04

over, and if they don't Maybe it

11:06

wasn't that import or maybe it was

11:08

important. but it no longer needs to

11:10

be because everything has a life cycle

11:13

including our interests. Susan.

11:15

Now that you've done this practice and you

11:17

thought about what was actually draining and what

11:19

really matters to you, walk us through your

11:21

perfect. An

11:24

ideal day is opening my ears and

11:26

hearing the first bird of the day

11:29

and I recognize them soon as I

11:31

can. That was first this money and

11:33

morning does. This first scored a goal

11:35

since was first screening. I once actually

11:38

the first registered besides hey I'm alive

11:40

I'm here which is good. Then

11:43

comes the cup of coffee. Gotta

11:45

have that. Take the dog

11:47

out because when we're out walking the

11:49

poetry starts moving and I start getting

11:51

a sense of what the day will

11:54

be like. Reflective longer walk with her

11:56

brings me home and then I can

11:58

sit down. if i want to right something and

12:00

work on that. A

12:03

perfect day will involve a visit to the stable

12:05

at least five days a week to get

12:07

some time with Travis the Welsh Pony

12:09

because when I'm there I'm a very

12:11

free child again and it's really good

12:13

for me. A good day involves

12:15

a couple of conversations with friends,

12:18

new friends, old friends, hey how are you doing,

12:20

hey you got sick how are you

12:22

feeling now, you know just those reaching out things. A

12:25

good day has as much outdoor activity as

12:27

it possibly can even if it's

12:29

bringing the indoor work out and

12:32

yeah that's kind of what it looks like. Susan

12:37

I so appreciate you being on the show I

12:40

want to wish you the best in the crafting

12:42

of the rest of your retirement and can't wait to

12:44

see where it takes you. Yeah me

12:46

too and thank you very much. Who

12:51

would be part of your perfect day? Share

12:53

this episode with them, let them

12:55

know how much you care and help us

12:57

grow the conversation around these practices that can add

13:00

so much meaning to our lives. Up

13:02

next we'll explain the job crafting

13:04

practice in detail and why

13:07

it's worth our while no matter what our

13:09

job is. It's about

13:11

decreasing demands that are not

13:13

helping us that are actually creating stress

13:15

and there are also demands that we

13:17

really enjoy they make us grow

13:20

so how do you get more of those? How

13:23

and why to job craft after

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Odoo Modern Management Made Simple.

14:32

Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm

14:34

Dacher Guttner. We've been

14:36

talking about the research-tested practice of

14:38

job crafting. Something we can

14:41

all do, whether we work in a

14:43

school, a hospital, an office, or at

14:45

a university like I do. We

14:47

can even apply this practice to retired

14:49

life, like our guest today did. The

14:53

first step in the practice is to get

14:55

out a pen and a piece of paper

14:57

and diagram your day. List

15:00

and then categorize each thing you

15:02

do as low, medium,

15:04

or high in terms of

15:07

the time and energy they require. Next,

15:09

ask yourself what you're most passionate

15:11

about, what motivates you, and

15:14

what you're really good at. In other words, what

15:16

do you want more of in your days? Then,

15:19

craft an after diagram. How

15:22

would you ideally like to spend your time? Are

15:25

there high-energy tasks you'd like to

15:27

de-emphasize? Are there things that really

15:29

inspire or uplift you, and you'd like

15:31

to give them more of your attention? Finally,

15:34

make an action plan. Your

15:37

job won't change overnight, but when you

15:39

look now at your before and after

15:41

sketches, notice where you can

15:43

start to implement small changes, and

15:45

then start doing it. If

15:50

you cannot afford to change your job,

15:52

then job crafting becomes even more important,

15:54

because it can just improve the one

15:56

that you have and get

15:59

a bit closer to your ideas. job so

16:01

that you can find this meaning in work.

16:04

Maria Timms is a professor of management

16:06

and organization at the University of Amsterdam.

16:09

She wanted to know when people take it

16:11

upon themselves to make little changes to their

16:14

jobs, do they feel better suited to the

16:16

work they're doing, like they're really in the

16:18

right job for them? And in

16:20

turn, would that help them feel like

16:22

their work is more meaningful? We know

16:24

from a lot of research that if this fit

16:27

between the person and a job is good, then

16:29

the person has a better attitude towards

16:31

work so there's higher job satisfaction, higher

16:33

commitment to the organization or the team.

16:35

So she did an experiment where 114

16:38

people filled out an online survey about

16:42

their job, once a week

16:44

for three weeks. We asked

16:47

things like, last week I tried to learn

16:49

new things at work. There was a good

16:51

fit this week between what my job offers

16:53

me and what I'm looking for in a

16:55

job. I understand how my

16:57

work contributes to my life's meaning. She

17:01

found that when people did things to craft

17:03

their jobs in the first week, they

17:05

felt better suited to their job the second

17:07

week. And then again the

17:09

next week we saw that meaningfulness,

17:12

this experience of meaningfulness was

17:14

also increased. When

17:16

we feel like our work has meaning and

17:19

we have the things we need to do our

17:21

work well, it frees up our energy to job

17:23

craft even more. But if

17:25

we're burned out, that's when we need the

17:27

support of our boss or colleagues. And

17:30

when each person can find a balance of

17:32

doing what needs to be done, while still

17:34

feeling motivated and happy overall, the whole team

17:36

wins. Then the person has

17:38

a better attitude towards work. They're less

17:40

likely to leave the organization and

17:43

more likely to feel motivated. And those

17:45

are the employees that you really value,

17:47

that really helps you to keep

17:50

a healthy, motivated team that can

17:52

perform well. And

17:54

sometimes it's small changes but in other

17:56

times I've seen people realizing that

17:58

they need a big team. and they had

18:01

to involve supervisors. But

18:03

yeah, overall I would recommend everybody to

18:05

see if they can craft their jobs.

18:15

Next time on the Science of Happiness, what happens

18:17

when we take time to listen to the sounds

18:19

of birds? If

18:21

it was just two species of birds

18:23

singing together or eight different species of

18:26

birds singing together, all

18:28

clinical symptoms of depression, anxiety

18:30

and paranoia were alleviated after

18:32

six minutes of listening to

18:34

this. I'm

18:39

Dakar Keltner. Thanks for joining us on the

18:42

Science of Happiness. Our executive

18:44

producer of audio is Shuka Kalantari.

18:46

Our producer is Haley Gray, sound

18:48

designer Jenny Cataldo of Accompany Studios,

18:51

and our associate producer is

18:53

Marja Zuffer. Our executive director is

18:55

Jason Marsh. The Science of Happiness

18:57

is a co-production of UC Berkeley's Greater

18:59

Good Science Center and PRX.