2:01

Welcome to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner.

2:04

Feeling overworked and unable to show up for

2:06

our loved ones in the ways we want

2:08

to, or to show up for ourselves for

2:10

that matter, is something many of

2:13

us struggle with. But getting

2:15

outside and plugging into the

2:17

natural world can really

2:19

help settle our minds, ease our

2:21

nerves, and allow us

2:23

to feel like we're part of something that's

2:25

bigger than ourselves. In

2:28

fact, studies show that just getting outdoors

2:30

a bit reduces our tendency to ruminate,

2:32

reduces our feelings of anxiety and depression,

2:35

and we also know that just getting outdoors and

2:38

enjoying nature increases our emotional

2:40

well-being and our sense of purpose

2:42

and meaning in life. In

2:45

celebration of summer, our next few episodes

2:47

of the Science of Happiness will be about

2:49

things we can do outside, to

2:51

make us feel good on the inside. We'll

2:54

travel to the boroughs of New York City, the

2:56

deep ocean waters of South Africa, and

2:59

for our show this week, we're visiting Japan,

3:01

exploring a way to tap into

3:03

nature through a Buddhist tradition, the

3:06

practice of caring for the temple grounds, in

3:09

this case, sweeping leaves from some

3:11

temple steps in Kyoto. It's

3:13

a practice that any of us can do wherever

3:15

we are, just find some place outdoors to

3:18

pick up a little bit, whether that means

3:20

weeding the garden or picking up the sidewalk

3:22

near our homes. For

3:24

today's show, we're going to hear from my

3:27

friend Shokei Matsumoto, a Buddhist monk. We

3:30

tend to think that

3:32

to cultivate our mindfulness,

3:34

we need to practice

3:36

some specific special set

3:39

of meditation, but in

3:41

reality, we can turn

3:43

every single moment in

3:45

our daily life into

3:48

mindful practice. We'll

3:50

also hear from Matt Herron, a Canadian

3:52

living in Kyoto, who's struggling, like many

3:55

of us, with a hefty workload. He

3:58

shares how this sweeping practice went for us. And

4:01

we'll also learn about the scientific

4:03

findings that explain how practices like

4:05

this can have such a deep

4:07

impact on our minds and bodies. All

4:09

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5:30

Welcome to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner.

5:33

Today we're exploring an ancient

5:35

but enduring contemplative technique, caring

5:37

for a garden. In

5:39

this case, by clearing leaves from the steps of

5:42

a Buddhist temple in Kyoto, Japan. This

5:44

might sound like a lot of yard work to you,

5:46

and it absolutely is, but that doesn't mean that there

5:49

isn't wisdom in finding meaning

5:51

in mindfully working. Besides

5:53

cultivating mindfulness, which supports us in so

5:55

many ways, there's a robust literature about

5:59

the benefits of garden. which has

6:01

been shown to help us feel happier, more

6:03

relaxed, less anxious and depressed, and

6:05

more generally in spending time in nature. Our

6:08

guest today is Matt Herron, a

6:11

Canadian who's lived in Japan for the last five

6:13

years. Matt joined my

6:15

friend, Shoke Matsumoto, a Buddhist

6:18

monk, to learn about the

6:20

Buddhist principles behind sweeping the

6:22

temple steps. And we'll

6:24

hear some moments from their time together throughout the show.

6:28

Here's part of our conversation. So

6:33

I want to get a sense of what it was like

6:35

the day, really the morning you went

6:37

to the temple with Shoke as you sort of

6:39

pulled away from the stressful days and

6:42

what it was like for you. Yeah,

6:44

it was very nice actually. But

6:47

as I was walking, it was funny, we talked about it

6:49

a little bit once I got there, but

6:51

I had emails coming in and customers

6:54

sending me messages that were causing

6:56

some frustration, I suppose. So

6:59

I'm like, okay, I think I will, whatever we're

7:01

doing today will probably be a good

7:03

time to do it. What

7:06

was it like as you started your conversation

7:09

and practice with him? He

7:11

had a very calm demeanor about him, which

7:13

was very nice. Good

7:16

morning. Welcome to Honenin Temple

7:18

in Kyoto. I'm Shoke Matsumoto,

7:21

Buddhist I

7:50

don't know how it is called in

7:52

English, but it's a chilitori in Japanese.

7:56

Ah, a very large dustpan.

8:00

Okay, you're breathing, thank

8:02

you. All right. So

8:08

when we were starting off heading towards the steps,

8:10

we were walking down a stone path that was

8:13

lined with trees and moss on the side. So

8:17

it's a really beautiful old temple

8:19

grounds actually, so it's really well

8:21

kept. There's lots of relatively

8:24

large white traditional buildings,

8:27

and then back down some more stone steps onto

8:30

a small pebble path that

8:32

leads through what seems

8:35

to be like a small forest on the mountainside. It

8:38

was very green and lush with these gray steps

8:40

in the middle. It was really beautiful. Walk

8:46

me through exactly what you did with

8:48

Shokae with this sweeping practice. Sure.

8:52

Once we got through the stairs, he kind

8:54

of explained that these are the stairs we're

8:57

going to be cleaning, and while we're sweeping

8:59

them, it doesn't

9:01

need to be perfect, and that the

9:03

cleaning process is not about doing it

9:05

perfectly. You do

9:07

have the left side,

9:09

I do right, but yeah, it's

9:12

not competition. So,

9:14

okay. Sounds good. All right. Sweeping

9:26

the leaves. You're

9:28

also sweeping your inner noise

9:31

in your mind. It's

9:34

interesting. So for me, it

9:37

comes in waves as I'm doing this sweeping. So

9:43

we're sweeping from the sides into the middle,

9:46

and when I do the sides, I feel

9:48

much more calm because I

9:50

can do large sweeping motions, and

9:53

it's flowing a little easier. As we get

9:55

into the middle, all the leaves

9:57

start falling into the cracks of the stones, and then I

9:59

have to do the same. to start sweeping a little more

10:01

aggressively to get them out. So it's

10:03

an interesting ebb and flow. The start is very smooth

10:05

and oh this is very nice and relaxing and then

10:08

I get to the middle and it's like okay I

10:10

need to be a little more aggressive

10:12

here and then I can go back to the nice relaxing

10:14

part. We had actually

10:16

talked about how for me it reminded me of

10:18

living in Canada. So in

10:21

Canada I would do a lot of shoveling of snow and

10:24

it was similar in the sense

10:26

that if you do it early enough and the snow

10:28

is light and fluffy you can do large shoveling

10:31

motions and as

10:33

much as it's a more aggressive sound

10:35

I find it somewhat calming but

10:38

when it's icy and the snow

10:40

is heavy you're doing these short

10:42

aggressive chipping motions and

10:44

that is not so relaxing and it can be frustrating.

10:47

So this was somewhat reminiscent of that. All

10:51

right Matt I'm gonna push on this you

10:53

know it sounds like parts of the exercise

10:55

were frustrating those stacks of leaves in the

10:57

middle of the steps and I'm just curious

10:59

in that moment you know

11:01

what your attitude was towards the activity

11:03

and your frustration. I

11:06

think what I was taking away from it

11:08

is that the whole idea of this mindfulness

11:10

and I guess it's okay it's at

11:12

interbeing is it's likely

11:15

a skill more than it is

11:17

simply something you can turn on

11:19

and turn off. I

11:22

assume if I was better with the

11:24

broom assuming anyone who does this more

11:26

often is a little less aggravated

11:29

by the cracks than I am. I

11:32

think cleaning is a good way to

11:35

leave our

11:37

goal-oriented mindset or

11:40

mindset for efficiency. So

11:43

just enjoy without thinking of how

11:46

I can do this better just

11:50

become broom. Yeah anyway we

11:53

can enjoy. And a

11:55

few times he had mentioned that

12:00

you just need to be the broom and don't worry

12:02

about it so much and

12:04

I certainly did get a little better at it by

12:06

the time we got to the bottom of the steps

12:08

but I think going forward

12:10

it's something that I need to be

12:13

mindful of that the whole idea of

12:15

mindfulness is a skill I'll need to

12:18

work on and I don't

12:20

think doing any particular activity is

12:22

going to change

12:25

anything necessarily it's

12:27

a matter of consistently

12:30

keeping this idea in mind

12:32

and practicing this mindset regardless

12:34

of the activity and

12:37

I think that's a big thing that I took away is that

12:40

if I have a goal in

12:42

mind as finding as far as mindset

12:44

goes or dealing with stresses it's

12:47

something that I need to work on little

12:49

by little and it's a skill that I'll

12:52

develop and hopefully eventually have a lot more

12:54

control over so

12:57

you may think cleaning is

13:00

about perfectionism so you need

13:02

to clean hundred percent but

13:05

it's not I'd say it's

13:07

a practice to

13:11

leave from perfectionism

13:14

so we cannot complete cleaning

13:16

there is no hundred percent

13:19

cleanliness right right after

13:21

cleaning the leaves start

13:23

falling so that's the nature

13:27

I mean even as we're talking now I've

13:29

seen maybe three leaves fall on the steps

13:31

that we just spent however long cleaning but

13:34

I think Shokay is right that it'll never

13:36

be clean and done there will always be

13:38

more to do that's

13:44

good to hear in a study

13:47

in South Korea they

13:49

had these adults who had mild depression and

13:51

anxiety and they did a 15-week gardening program

13:54

and twice weekly they did gardening

13:56

activities and over that

13:59

time their symptoms of depression and anxiety

14:01

improved or lessened. And

14:04

I'm just curious how you feel this

14:06

practice with Shoke of sweeping the steps

14:09

affected all the stresses that you've reported

14:12

on of worrying about things, sort of

14:14

mind focused on the phone, if you

14:16

notice any changes. Being

14:18

able to go into the temple and hear

14:22

the birds chirping, be in the

14:24

trees, have the light rays coming through them was

14:26

really nice and created

14:28

a bit of a disconnect from

14:31

all the stresses of normal life. But

14:34

I wonder part of it though is sweeping

14:36

is not typically a relaxing activity for

14:38

me if I'm doing it. But

14:41

I wonder if a lot of that sort

14:44

of enjoyment and calmness that

14:46

came out of it was because I

14:48

was doing it with Shoke.

14:51

I wonder if I had personally done

14:53

it myself, if it would

14:55

have been more of a goal oriented exercise where

14:57

I thought, oh, okay, I need to clean these

15:00

steps and I need to get this done.

15:03

And I would have been counting

15:06

down the sweeps until I was finished.

15:08

Whereas with Shoke, it wasn't about sweeping

15:10

the steps. It was about

15:13

doing the activity and enjoying the atmosphere

15:16

versus the

15:18

actual activity of sweeping.

15:21

And part of it, I even wonder is if

15:23

it needed to be Shoke. I think if I

15:25

was doing it with anyone, maybe this is just

15:28

me personally, but I think

15:30

doing the activity with someone

15:32

else, whether it was gardening or

15:35

sweeping or hiking can

15:38

change the activity from something

15:40

that is goal driven and

15:44

is about kind of the purpose of

15:46

the activity to

15:49

time spent enjoying what

15:51

you're doing. Personally,

15:55

when I'm in nature and

15:57

I can see the lights, I can feel the wind.

16:00

I can hear the birds. There's

16:02

nothing there putting pressure on me. I'm

16:05

just existing in

16:07

that space surrounded by trees,

16:10

birds, water, whatever have you

16:12

and I feel

16:15

more open. I

16:17

think the biggest thing I'm gonna take

16:19

away from this whole experience is that

16:22

I will try to make more of

16:24

a conscious effort to get into

16:27

nature more. You can feel

16:29

more connected with nature. You can

16:32

feel more open and more fresh and it's

16:34

a nice refresher from normal life

16:37

and normal stresses and

16:39

then you can go back into normal life again

16:41

and perhaps feel a little bit cleaner

16:43

if you will. Well

16:48

Matt, thank you so much for doing

16:51

this unusual practice with Sho-K and been

16:53

a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much.

16:55

I enjoyed the whole experience. Cleaning

17:01

outdoor is a great

17:03

opportunity to come to understand

17:06

that we are part of

17:08

the nature. Up

17:11

next, my conversation with Sho-K. Support

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your podcasts. Welcome

19:46

back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher

19:49

Keltner. We've been talking

19:51

about practicing mindfulness in nature

19:54

by cleaning up a little outdoors. It's

19:57

something that most of us can do wherever we

19:59

are. Maybe it's raking leaves

20:01

in the yard or picking up trash at

20:03

a park. Our guests for

20:05

today's show had the privilege

20:07

of visiting a beautiful Buddhist

20:09

temple on a hillside in Kyoto to

20:12

sweep the temple steps. We're

20:14

now joined by the Buddhist monk who guided him

20:16

through that sweeping practice, my friend

20:19

Shoke Matsuboto. Shoke has been

20:21

a monk for more than 20 years and is

20:23

the author of the book, A Monk's Guide to

20:25

a Clean House and Mine. Shoke,

20:31

thanks for being in conversation. Hi,

20:33

Dakar. Very wonderful to see here. Thank

20:35

you. I think you've been one of

20:37

the best illustrations of something I've always

20:40

gleaned from Buddhism, which is the

20:42

possibility of mindfulness or enlightenment

20:45

or awareness just in

20:47

every aspect of our behavior. You

20:49

teach people that cleaning and sweeping

20:51

becomes a form of

20:53

contemplation. How is this possible?

20:56

We tend to think that

20:58

to cultivate our mindfulness, we

21:00

need to practice some specific,

21:03

special set of meditation

21:06

or some sort of practice

21:09

in our time. But

21:11

in reality, we can turn

21:14

every single moment in our

21:16

daily life into

21:19

mindful practice. So to

21:21

cultivate your mindfulness, what

21:23

is important is keeping

21:25

practice. Practice it, right? Sometimes

21:28

your mind might be occupied

21:31

with issues you're facing at

21:33

or emotions of

21:36

anger or whatever. Compared

21:39

to the meditation in

21:41

silence, in stillness, cleaning

21:45

practice is meditation

21:47

emotion. At

21:50

least you need to be

21:52

aware of your physical

21:54

emotion. Otherwise, you cannot

21:57

continue cleaning. occupied

22:00

with some emotion or thought,

22:04

try to concentrate on

22:07

your emotion in cleaning so

22:09

that it reduces your attachment

22:11

to the issue or problem

22:13

you are facing. We

22:16

know from a lot of research

22:18

that when you practice meditation outdoors,

22:20

there's just greater reductions in stress.

22:22

A recent study from the UK,

22:25

other research finds people feel more connected to

22:27

nature, which is so important today. How

22:30

would you teach us about the

22:32

deepening of a meditative practice by doing it outdoors?

22:34

What does it give to us? So

22:38

basically, I think that

22:41

the role of Buddhism, the

22:44

role of Mahayana Buddhism is

22:46

cultivating your sense of feeding,

22:50

interbeingness in this world.

22:53

So the great Mahayana Buddhist,

22:56

the Thich Nhat Hanh said, human

22:59

being is interbeing. Everyone

23:02

is interconnected, interdependent.

23:04

Everything is related to each other.

23:08

So cleaning outdoor is

23:11

very, very powerful experience for

23:14

us to remember that

23:17

we are interbeing, interconnected.

23:20

So we can feel the wind,

23:22

we can see the change of

23:24

the season and

23:27

touch the soil and

23:29

the microbes in the soil. And

23:32

so we are

23:34

beyond ourselves, right? Shokhe,

23:37

I wanted to ask you about something

23:39

you wrote in your book about communicating

23:41

with nature. And first

23:43

you write that it gives us richness

23:46

to our minds. And that's a old

23:48

idea, very deep idea, in

23:51

indigenous traditions and Ralph Waldo Emerson writing, we

23:53

learned some of our most

23:55

important ethical ideas in being with nature. But then

23:57

you go on to say that, examine

24:00

nature and then examine yourself through

24:02

the lens of nature. And

24:05

that really struck me, you know, there's

24:08

recent research coming out of the UK

24:10

showing when students do mindfulness practices outdoors

24:12

in nature, they do indeed

24:14

become more reflective. So I'm curious what

24:16

you're thinking is about examining

24:19

yourself through the lens of nature.

24:22

Yeah, so the cleaning garden

24:25

is my favorite cleaning.

24:27

When you clean outdoor,

24:30

you examine the nature.

24:33

But not only that, you

24:35

become nature, right? So

24:38

nature is not something

24:41

outside of yourself, but you

24:43

are part of the nature. And

24:46

in this consumerism, we

24:49

tend to be obsessed with being

24:53

very valuable, value

24:55

adding existence as

24:58

a producer or as

25:00

a consumer. But

25:02

we could be neither

25:05

consumer nor producer. We

25:09

could be decomposer. So

25:12

that's the great learning

25:14

in cleaning practice. It's

25:16

a whole shift in identity. It's not a

25:18

subject object relationship in some way. It's right.

25:21

Right. A process view of what we do

25:23

out in the right. This

25:25

has been such a rich conversation showcase. Thank

25:27

you so much for joining us on the

25:29

science of happiness and showing our

25:31

guests, Matt Heron, how to properly sweep the

25:34

temple steps. Yeah. Thank you so much. Next

25:40

time on the science of happiness, we're

25:42

staying outdoors. Except instead

25:44

of Japanese temples, our guest explores

25:46

new places he's never seen before

25:49

in New York City, where he

25:51

lives. On

25:53

days when you explore more, you go to new places you

25:55

tend to report feeling happier. And that's partially

25:57

driven by this novelty bonus that's in trim.

26:00

in people's brains. We

26:02

travel through the boroughs of New York and

26:05

learn why visiting new places without

26:07

traveling far can make us happier.

26:15

Music Thanks

26:19

for joining us on the Science of Happiness. I'm

26:21

Dacher Keltner. A special thanks

26:23

to our research assistants and my former Science

26:26

of Happiness students, Dasha Zabroni

26:28

and Selena Bilal. Our

26:30

sound designer is Jenny Cataldo of

26:32

Accompany Studios. Our producer is Hailey

26:35

Gray. Our podcast executive

26:37

producer is Shuka Kalantari. Music

26:48

From PRX.