0:08

Have you ever reflected on the term

0:10

post sale? Why do

0:13

we call that post sale? When

0:15

did we stop selling and what have

0:17

we started to do? Create customer

0:19

value, renew, expand? I've never thought

0:22

about it until today's

0:24

episode with Sangeeta Chakraborty,

0:27

the CRO of Miro, a recent Silicon

0:29

Valley darling. And what's really cool

0:31

and unique about her is she

0:34

grew up in customer success. Customer

0:37

success didn't even exist 20 years

0:40

ago. And now we have this

0:42

new generation of CROs that grew

0:44

up from that perspective. She filled

0:46

that role at Okta, at Checkr,

0:48

eventually at Miro, and now she's

0:51

in the CRO suite. And

0:53

she doesn't have the perspective of only

0:55

sales and only marketing, but primarily

0:57

of customer value. So we'll learn

0:59

more and she's going to drop

1:02

knowledge in today's episode on why

1:04

that is so critical for today's

1:06

CRO. I'm Mark Giberge, and

1:08

this is the Science of Scaling. You're

1:13

really active, especially in the Silicon Valley

1:15

startup ecosystem. As a board member and

1:17

investor and advisor, I just

1:20

would love to hear your reflections

1:23

on the patterns you're seeing on early go-to-market.

1:26

Yeah, sure. What you need to do as

1:28

a go-to-market leader is to have to be

1:30

a scholar of the business. And you have

1:32

to understand what your customers are saying and

1:34

the employees that are facing the customers are

1:36

saying. And sometimes these founders tend to have

1:38

blinders on and really have a hard time

1:40

looking at it critically from a go-to-market function.

1:42

Interesting. Imagine for the most part, you're

1:44

talking through the lens of a product

1:46

founder. And so what do you do

1:48

in that case? They have

1:51

all that passion. You don't want to insult them. You

1:53

don't want to insult their baby as they say. It's

1:56

their vision. Exactly. This is

1:58

their company. coach them through

2:00

that. I think the best thing is to figure

2:03

out how to take that power and harness it

2:05

and use it for the best outcomes. And

2:08

that passion, that evangelism is needed in different

2:10

parts of the business. You need it in

2:12

fundraising, you need it in hiring people that

2:14

are probably, you're punching above your age when

2:16

you're trying to hire some of these people,

2:19

place it there. But if you

2:21

bring that intensity into a customer meeting, sometimes you're

2:23

actually drowning out the voice of the customer. So

2:25

I try to coach them and to helping them

2:27

understanding what is it going to be that is

2:29

going to give you the fastest scale through

2:32

the go-to-market journey. And

2:34

there you want to kind of tone

2:36

that down and be all about listening.

2:38

I struggle with this myself. I'm actually

2:40

going through this with a portfolio company

2:42

right now, getting the product

2:45

founder to let go. We

2:47

have hired a professional seller from an incumbent.

2:50

They know the domain really well. They know

2:52

how to sell. I

2:54

feel like the product founder has a

2:56

perception of what great sales is, but

2:58

they've never really

3:00

professionally sold before. And

3:03

I'm struggling to have

3:06

them let go and educate

3:08

them on what selling is. I'm

3:11

sure you've seen it. And I don't know if you

3:13

can walk through a case of how you manage that

3:15

between the first professional seller and

3:17

the founder. Yeah, I've seen that. What

3:20

I've realized is that the product

3:22

founder CEOs are all about design

3:24

and understanding the purity of the

3:26

design of anything that anybody is

3:29

doing. And when you

3:31

are aligning yourself and helping them

3:33

understand the problem that you're solving,

3:35

when you talk to them in terms of a

3:37

product lens, even about go-to-market, I think you get

3:39

a lot of mutual

3:41

understanding that gets fostered. It's

3:44

actually something that I feel we could do better

3:46

in go-to-market, which is to take that product lens

3:48

and apply it. Because even

3:51

in go-to-market, you're thinking about it, you are building a

3:53

product. That go-to-market function is a product that is going

3:55

to start from some alpha stage. You're going to test

3:57

it, you're going to go to beta, then you go

3:59

to live. and you're going to try a new place.

4:01

But generally the patterns that help is when the founder

4:04

understands the design and understands how we're

4:06

going to go about it and is on the journey,

4:08

but also recognizes that

4:10

they have a particular seat on their

4:12

journey, and that is not necessarily the

4:14

driver's seat. They're very close

4:16

understanding how we're delivering it, and they trust

4:19

them this person can do the right things.

4:21

I've never heard that before. I love that.

4:23

You're bringing this challenge of caught off on

4:25

the first sales process and team back

4:28

to something they understand. Bring

4:30

that to life one step deeper. Because

4:32

I'm just going to assume and guess

4:34

that what we're talking about here is,

4:37

version 1.0, which is a total mistake,

4:39

is founder hires seller, seller brings them

4:41

on to a prospect call, founder

4:44

tells the founding story, tells the vision for the

4:47

product and says, do you want to buy? That's

4:49

where we're at. It's like they expect the sellers

4:51

to do that too, and that's not how sales

4:53

works. Now

4:57

you tell them the story about, hey, listen, we have to design

4:59

this thing and now they get excited. What

5:01

does that mean? Does that mean they're like a

5:03

fly on the wall in prospect calls? Does

5:05

that mean we're listening to gone recordings? Does

5:07

that mean we're getting up from a whiteboard

5:09

and doing role plays? The way

5:12

I've got about it is, the

5:14

first understanding is for the product CEO

5:16

to figure out what that journey

5:19

is. If you tell them, here's a user

5:21

journey. Similarly, here's a buyer journey. Part

5:24

of what is important is, we market

5:26

you and I will say, here's force

5:29

management. Isn't it blatantly obvious? PBOs and

5:31

negative business consequences, metrics, all of this.

5:34

We've also developed our own jargon that people

5:36

tune out. You want to

5:38

actually break it down and say, here's the journey

5:40

that they're on and they will only buy when

5:42

they see a problem that resonates with them, that

5:44

there's budget associated, they understand how the outcomes are

5:46

going to arrive. We're going to design this journey

5:49

very carefully so that we

5:51

can accelerate it. We try it once, learn

5:53

what doesn't work, understand what the

5:55

friction points are, and we take the friction away. The

5:58

first step is to have the

14:00

CSMs also to think about how do you

14:02

grow the business. Putting them in very different

14:04

silos creates a lot of tension within

14:07

the system because he wants the

14:09

CSM to help with expansion activities and the

14:11

CSM says, hold on, that's not what I'm

14:13

paid for. I'm just going to do my

14:15

thing. And I'm a huge believer of culture

14:18

and nothing destroys culture than the wrong incentive

14:20

structure. Yeah, brilliant.

14:23

When is the majority going to get this? Like,

14:25

we're comping our reps like it's 1980.

14:29

To Senghita's point, we have to

14:31

align end customer value with

14:33

our sales comp plan. And she

14:35

talks a lot about different ways to do that.

14:38

I'll add to it. Well,

14:40

a couple phases. First off, you're five people around the

14:42

room in R&D, you bring a seller on. I don't

14:45

think you can use a comp plan. Like, it's

14:47

not fair to be iterated on product market fit.

14:49

And all the engineers and PM and designers sitting

14:52

around and just like making their salary while they

14:54

iterate, iterate, and the sellers only

14:56

get paid half their base and not their commission

14:58

because we haven't figured out PMF yet. Just put

15:00

them on a salary with equity. Like

15:02

if they care too much about like making money

15:04

and upside, you hire the wrong person. It's like

15:06

the exploration and curiosity of finding PMF. But once

15:08

we get past that, and we actually have to

15:11

put like some of this compensation in a

15:13

commission and variable, which you should do, then

15:15

align it with end

15:18

customer value. Now, the struggle

15:20

with doing that is we

15:22

can't pay them like a percentage of the

15:24

monthly payment from the customer or the annual

15:26

payment from the customer, because then they'll just

15:29

be like collecting money every month without doing

15:31

anything. And then furthermore,

15:33

it is a psychological

15:35

best practice to have the seller feel

15:38

the pain when they miss a month or quarter

15:40

and feel the upside when they crush in a

15:42

good way, the month or quarter.

15:44

And so we have to figure

15:46

out how to propagate end user

15:48

value back to

15:51

right now at the point of sale. And

15:53

that's where the implementation of the leading indicator

15:55

of retention is useful. So what is it

15:57

that the customer is going to do and

15:59

therefore, first month with your product, that if

16:01

they do it, they'll be with you forever. And

16:04

if they don't, they're going to churn.

16:06

For HubSpot, it was, they used five or

16:08

more features in the platform. For Slack, it

16:10

was, they sent 2000 team messages a month.

16:12

I don't know what it is for Miro,

16:14

but like that's the comp plan. Hey, you

16:16

get paid half your commission when you, they

16:18

signed the contract and half the commission when

16:20

the lead indicator of attention occurs. Beautiful. Short-term

16:22

focus of the point of sale and highly

16:24

align the customer value. All

16:27

right. Let's get back to Sangeeta. And

16:29

I can accelerate that process into the high

16:32

touch sales motion. That's a pretty good

16:34

transition, I think, to Miro and

16:36

your experience there, kind of when you came

16:38

in, what got you excited about

16:41

the opportunity? I think with every leader,

16:43

they also see challenges

16:45

they're excited to take on or opportunities for

16:47

improvement that they think they can drive. Can

16:49

you, can you elaborate? Yeah. So

16:52

I was quite blown away with the

16:54

PLG, SLG motion that we have. And

16:57

I will say that before that I was in very,

16:59

very pure PLG companies. So I was

17:01

a student of force management and the only way

17:03

I could think about it was just the one way

17:05

that the selling world works. It

17:07

was the demand was so incredible and

17:10

the PLG machine was so efficient that

17:12

the company was doing this beautiful job of

17:15

acquisition, of acquisition of fantastic customers, the

17:17

best logos you could find. And they

17:20

were very successful. Huge

17:22

user love to me. The thing that attracted me

17:24

the most is I felt I

17:26

was going to have an opportunity to learn something

17:28

that I had never learned before. It

17:30

sort of unlocked a part of my brain once I

17:32

got to know it. I was still

17:34

evaluating it. And what I loved about

17:36

the way Miro looks about their business is that we

17:39

are in fast learning mode

17:41

through experimentation. And to me,

17:43

that was another thing that I thought was fascinating to

17:45

see how we could explore that in GoToMarket. And we

17:47

weren't going to do that in GoToMarket at that time.

17:49

And so when I joined,

17:51

this to me was the most fascinating

17:53

thing that here's a company enormously successful,

17:55

but we had this fantastic opportunity to

17:57

actually better understand. the customer. At this

17:59

stage of growth, I would have expected

18:01

that we would know a lot more.

18:04

And so that is the experience that I

18:06

understood that a PLD company has to figure

18:08

out how to master without slowing down the

18:10

beauty of PLD, without slowing down any of

18:12

that motion. But how can you then supplement

18:14

this with understanding what the customer is doing?

18:16

Because at the end of the day, and

18:18

an enterprise customer, if you don't understand that,

18:20

you don't know how to grow them, you

18:22

don't know how to help them. And

18:25

there's a velocity that comes with the

18:27

PLD motion that you want to then

18:30

continue to accelerate, but that needs to

18:32

be then supplemented by the traditional CSM

18:34

and the SLG motion.

18:41

The Sales Evangelist, hosted by Donald

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Sales Evangelist wherever you get your

19:25

podcasts. What

19:27

is your personal experience? I

19:31

do want to take a step back to

19:34

educate those in the audience that

19:36

aren't familiar with force management's approach

19:38

to SLG, and then also maybe

19:40

dive a little more deeply

19:43

into how the sales motion worked

19:45

in a very heavy PLG oriented

19:47

context that you found. Yeah,

19:50

you first uncover the pain, and

19:53

you do a little bit deeper understanding than

19:55

even the customer initially tell you, because you

19:57

want to really deeply understand what is the

19:59

problem. you're solving. And then you paint a

20:01

vision for the customer that if they use

20:03

your product, here's what the positive world would

20:05

look like, the implications of not

20:07

using your product, and then helping them understand

20:10

how you're going to take them into that,

20:12

you know, the promised world. And

20:15

then if possible, you want to show them

20:17

what in your product is required for them

20:19

to be successful, and how you could do

20:21

it better than anybody else out there. So

20:24

the net result is you're painting a vision,

20:26

you're helping the customer understand the exact characteristics

20:28

of how this process would look like, you

20:30

also help them understand the metrics

20:32

that will show success. And so at the end of

20:35

the day, you have both a business case

20:37

that you can go and take to the executive buyer,

20:39

you also ideally have a timeline because you have a

20:41

work backwards plan in terms of what they would like

20:43

to see and how you get the deal done. And

20:46

it's a tried and tested sales methodology. And there's

20:48

many methodologies, I'm sure there are others that are

20:50

fantastic, I just happen to have users.

20:54

So when I look at a PLG world, I automatically

20:57

started looking for it. And it was interesting,

20:59

because that's not even necessarily what

21:01

you would be looking for. The

21:03

beauty of it is that you're able to marry

21:06

the PLG velocity, which is user

21:08

driven love and user driven habits

21:10

that you have monetized. I

21:13

think product founders that actually pull this

21:15

off get confused at why they even

21:17

need a sales work. Ultimately,

21:19

how do you bring the

21:21

sales organ without destroying the magic? Because

21:23

I, in my experience talking to a

21:25

lot of founders, CEOs, like,

21:29

I don't know, like, the minute I bring

21:31

these sales people in, I'm going to have

21:34

this like, bro culture over there, it's going

21:36

to destroy our product and engineering mindsets, it's

21:38

going to be president's club and like, going

21:41

out to the bar every night and like

21:43

closing deals and revenue and high fives and

21:45

look at I'm driving a Ferrari now because

21:47

I had a sick quarter. And then even

21:50

just beyond culture, it's going to

21:52

be like they're going to start calling these people before

21:54

they even have a chance to use

21:56

the product. And that's going to destroy our

21:58

PLG, it's going to raise our We're

22:00

gonna end up with a lot of

22:02

customers who were sold a dream that isn't

22:04

actually true, all these manipulations and lies.

22:07

I kind of feel like in my

22:09

experience talking to those founder CEOs, that's

22:11

what's going through their head. So

22:14

how? Yeah. So for

22:16

the product founders that are starting with PLG, and

22:18

I hope the most of them are, even though

22:20

it doesn't apply to everything, I think

22:23

the beauty of starting with PLG is incredible

22:25

and I'm a convert. I

22:27

think the most important thing is the culture that you set

22:29

and the value system that you set. And

22:31

I will commend our CEO for being completely

22:34

rooted and practicing this every day. And

22:36

I think that is crucial about how you

22:38

start to scale your business, not

22:40

just when you bring in sales teams, you bring it,

22:43

this is the value system that you bring into

22:45

the company. So the things that I felt that

22:47

I've seen done really well are

22:49

this value system allows you to take a step

22:51

back from your functional role and think about the

22:53

company first. And so you're actually moving

22:55

forward the company as a shareholder with that value system

22:58

in place. When you bring the

23:00

sales team in, you're hiring for the same

23:02

values. You're not hiring the bros that are

23:04

buying for us. You're hiring

23:06

people that are also shareholders and the right

23:08

sales leaders that come in, think

23:10

about how to build this business with the biggest

23:12

and the best efficiency metrics, not

23:15

just the biggest paycheck and the most lavish

23:17

vacations that they can go on. It

23:20

takes careful, nurturing and constant

23:23

management, I will say, from

23:25

the leadership suite, the

23:27

CEO first, but every single person in the leadership

23:29

suite needs to keep thinking about this and how

23:31

we build these teams together because you're

23:33

right. The culture could get destroyed

23:35

if you hire the wrong person, but that would

23:37

stand for anybody. It could be the salesperson, it

23:40

could be the engineering leader. So I don't think

23:42

this is, I know the stereotype, but

23:44

I think the risk is for anybody you bring in. So

23:47

the first thing is, what's your value system? How strongly are you

23:49

maintaining that very system as you're growing the company? On

23:52

your other point of, are they going to destroy

23:54

the PLG machine or the magic? I

23:57

think your PLG magic is at risk. you

24:00

haven't figured out the fundamentals

24:02

of the business. And the fundamentals to

24:04

me are you are building

24:06

a PLG system that is driving value,

24:08

you're monetizing it next. You have to

24:10

be very clear about the enterprise value

24:12

that you're providing because you don't have

24:14

that. Then yes, the sales team is

24:16

going to start going into prospects

24:20

that are not ready for enterprise value. So

24:22

I think the enterprise value has to be

24:24

clear. The second thing is the

24:26

incentive structure also has to be clear because then

24:28

it also will drive the right kind of behaviors.

24:31

This is a critical point and it's

24:33

like a huge failure point for successful

24:36

PLG companies that then need

24:38

to bring in a sales team, which

24:40

I honestly, it's hard to think as we discussed. I

24:42

mean, maybe Canva is a recent good example, but it's

24:44

hard to think of a company that's scaled to like

24:46

10 billion plus a market

24:48

cap without doing that and how to do

24:51

that well. And it really comes down to

24:53

the differentiation of like the end user value

24:55

and why that end user uses

24:58

your product and perceives it as value, which

25:00

is what the PLG motion does and the

25:02

economic buyer and what they perceive

25:04

as value as an important switch. And it's,

25:07

it's a little bit of the, one of

25:09

the key points in Oliver J's PLG trap

25:11

that we talked about in season one is

25:13

like, we have to study the new

25:15

user, the new buyer in

25:18

this case. I mean, Sangeeta didn't

25:20

explicitly say who it was. She

25:23

talked a little bit about what that

25:25

enterprise value was in terms of security,

25:27

which is probably more like the CTO

25:29

and CIO she talked about in terms

25:31

of employee experience, which could have

25:33

been in like the drop-off example. Maybe it was the head of

25:36

engineering or the head of product that cares about it. Maybe it's

25:38

a little bit ahead of people and what

25:40

they're doing. These are folks who

25:42

are not users of Miro today, but

25:45

they are key buyers in the

25:47

transition to sales like growth and

25:49

what they're going to up-level monetization

25:51

with. So we have to

25:54

almost like reinvent that package and

25:56

reinvent that sales process to be built

25:58

around that buyer. To do that, you

26:00

won't ruin the PLG motion. Because

26:03

there's no incentive for the

26:05

salesperson to call the frontline individual.

26:08

They're really calling the economic buyer and pitching that.

26:11

It's like, hey, you've got 5,000 people using

26:13

our product, but it's not secure and

26:15

it's not integrated. And we have to

26:17

do discovery on that to see if it's a pain point for them and

26:19

sell it. All right, thank you to Sanghita for

26:21

outlining that for us. Let's get back to her. First,

26:25

to me, the two things are clarity

26:27

on the enterprise product offering. And

26:30

assuming that you've hired the right kind of people, that

26:32

you have the incentive structure that gives them the right

26:34

thing to do. The difference

26:36

between hiring a salesperson for

26:39

SLG versus PLG. Can

26:41

you literally get down to the

26:43

differences in attributes you're looking

26:46

for, perhaps even the differences in what the

26:48

interview sounds like or the exercises that you

26:50

do during the assessment? Yeah,

26:52

I think the key things of a

26:54

sales leader in a PLG world is

26:58

somebody who is deeply curious

27:00

about how this product works

27:02

and the value that you're driving and the learning

27:05

journey that you can go on. So

27:07

it needs somebody who thinks like a shareholder. The

27:10

second thing is that you need somebody

27:12

who is coming in as a learner

27:15

and doesn't come in with a lot of

27:17

preconceived notions, but the best PLG sales leaders

27:19

are the ones that say, I know what

27:21

has worked there. I wanna bring

27:23

that when the time comes in, but let me first

27:26

understand what is needed here and how I can be

27:28

the best at learning fast. The third

27:30

thing is the value system. You want somebody

27:32

who understands the value system of the company and

27:34

wants to be a value centric leader of the

27:36

company. I really truly can't emphasize

27:38

how important I found this to be. Because

27:41

if you don't have that, then the foundation is erased and you

27:43

really are going to have a hard time doing any of the

27:45

other two. That's great.

27:47

And I wanna hit the other one too,

27:49

because I have been very fortunate to be

27:51

on the receiving call

27:54

of those first sales leaders

27:57

that took these great PLG companies

27:59

into. to the enterprise. I

28:02

got the call from Shopify, from

28:04

Zoom, from Asana, from Dropbox, from

28:06

all these folks. And

28:11

I knew what was coming. It

28:13

was like, they don't wanna put

28:16

any value in the enterprise product.

28:19

They wanna keep everything in the free. And

28:23

so I love your point about like, you

28:25

have to be very clear on the enterprise

28:27

value. So maybe can we just

28:29

use Miro as a case? What

28:31

was it for them? Can you walk us through

28:33

like in with Miro? What

28:35

is it that the opening PLG

28:37

user value is that they're

28:39

intended to experience for free?

28:42

And what is the enterprise value that the

28:44

sales person is gonna bring them toward? So

28:47

it's a very Miro specific situations. I'll tell you

28:49

what Miro does for people that in your audience

28:51

may not be familiar. Miro

28:54

invented the category of online

28:56

whiteboard long before it was something that the world

28:59

thought it was necessary. And

29:01

during the pandemic, brought it to a collaboration

29:03

workspace where people could just get on the

29:06

browser and work with each other. Obviously

29:08

massive product need at that time and

29:10

really beautiful product market fit. And

29:13

what we realized was that people were coming

29:15

to Miro to actually build their products and

29:18

services. Only look at, Miro is used by

29:20

any kind of or typically to be hospitals

29:22

selling their services to a patient. It

29:25

could be a bank with financial services. It could

29:27

be a manufacturing company mapping out the manufacturing process.

29:29

And of course a lot of high tech companies

29:31

use Miro. And so

29:33

we started to look at well in this

29:35

vast user base and there's now 75 million

29:37

users on it. What are they

29:39

doing on Miro? And we realized that at that time when

29:41

we were looking at this for sure is

29:44

that the majority of the work are people

29:46

that are bringing products and services to market.

29:48

So they're doing their best ideation work. They're

29:51

doing their best collaboration work. And

29:53

they're really literally creating IP for

29:55

their companies. And so the value

29:58

that you get when you move to an

30:00

enterprise. setting is you get first of all

30:02

to protect that IP better. And

30:04

that's a value that the enterprise cares about.

30:06

And then increasingly, we are beginning to put in

30:08

more and more features that are security oriented that

30:10

actually make sense. Not because we say that, oh,

30:13

you can just get a skim offering, you can

30:15

get that even without going to the enterprise plan.

30:18

But the value that you're getting is locking down that

30:20

IP that you need to protect. And

30:22

we continue to invest on it now. So we

30:24

are putting in more admin features, because if you

30:27

are a small company with 10 users, you don't

30:29

need all of the value that I think that

30:31

an admin in a 15,000 organization or 60,000 organization

30:35

will need. So you continue to

30:37

invest then in giving them the ability

30:40

to manage that software better. And you

30:42

legitimately don't need it unless you've gone

30:44

to that state. Yeah,

30:46

I haven't really thought about this that much.

30:48

And I like where Sangeet is going. I'll

30:51

add to it. And I have

30:53

experienced this significantly as an operator

30:55

and used it in

30:58

many portfolio companies at Stage 2

31:00

Capital. And that is the motions

31:02

really different in sales when you're

31:05

adding this team into

31:07

the PLG motion. And

31:10

this is a case where you do decide

31:12

to call the end user with

31:14

the ultimate goal to drive adoption and then

31:16

eventually get to the economic buyer. So

31:19

the way it goes is like the outreach

31:22

to the end user is

31:25

the prospect in this case is different than sales like growth, in

31:27

which case you're just trying to get them on the phone to

31:29

do discovery in sales like growth where you're

31:31

just like doing some form of

31:33

education or research. In

31:35

this case, you're almost like acting like a

31:37

proactive customer support person. The

31:40

next step when they first get on the phone

31:42

is actually remarkably similar, you want to get

31:44

into a discovery motion. You don't

31:46

want to get into like how are you using the product

31:48

and how can I make it better? You might have to

31:50

if they're not super engaged, but ideally you want to get

31:52

into like what made you even download this product, which

31:55

is the same thing in sales like growth, which is like, why do

31:57

you even take this meeting? It

31:59

ultimately leads to like. what are the problems you're pursuing or

32:01

what are the opportunities you're pursuing and why and what have

32:03

you changed? What would be the ideal solution and all

32:06

these types of situations?

32:09

The step after the discovery call is very

32:11

different. In sales like growth, you're moving into

32:13

a tailored pitch and trying for a

32:15

contract of ultimately. In

32:18

product led growth, you're showing them how to

32:20

use the product to achieve those goals. That's

32:23

a huge difference. And

32:26

you're just like, do you get that? Yeah, this is

32:28

perfect. Thank you so much. I had a problem. I

32:30

kind of knew how to use your product to solve

32:32

it, but you've clearly set it up

32:34

for me and you're like, great. I'll

32:37

check in next week. And

32:40

your hope is that when you check in

32:42

next week, they're probably going to chip trip

32:44

a monetization wire or you're going to create

32:46

enough value usage that you can now go

32:48

to the economic buyer with the pitch. So

32:51

hopefully we understand the nuances there and how

32:53

it's different from the SLG and

32:56

how you can avoid ruining the pure

32:58

PLG motion as you add sellers to

33:00

the team. Let's get back

33:02

to Sangeeta. So

33:04

it's about being very genuine about the

33:06

enterprise value that you're selling and not

33:09

doing something that most other places I've

33:11

seen are, hey, I think you should

33:13

have, you know, skim and that is

33:15

the enterprise product. Well, thank

33:17

you so much, Sangeeta. The work you're doing

33:19

and the foundation that you had in your

33:21

career now in the CRO suite, I think

33:23

is so critical to the positive

33:25

evolution of our field. Well,

33:28

I'll never forget this episode because I'm

33:30

going to remember the word post sale

33:33

with a big red X through it. And

33:35

I think that's so metaphorical on what we need to

33:37

do to make our function more

33:39

successful and in the end, our startups more

33:41

successful. So I really appreciate you coming on

33:44

and dropping knowledge. Thanks for having

33:46

me, Mark. It was a pleasure. All

33:53

right. That does it for me, folks.

33:55

I'd like to thank our showrunner, Matthew

33:58

Brown. I didn't support comes from. of

34:00

Shark Productions. Of course I want to

34:02

thank HubSpot for startups and the HubSpot

34:04

podcast network for keeping the audio on.

34:06

And by the way, I'm

34:09

a huge fan of feedback. And so

34:11

get this, if you're listening on Spotify right

34:13

now, check your phone, see that Q&A field?

34:16

That's a direct line to me and our show. So let

34:18

us know what you think. Alright, I'll see

34:20

you next week. you