0:00

Hi Ben, my name is Vicki and

0:03

my secret is that I was a child

0:05

psychic. All my predictions were

0:07

imaginary, but that didn't stop the adults

0:09

around me from falling for the charade.

0:12

Today the Seeker Room presents, I

0:14

was a child psychic. There

0:27

were things that I can't explain

0:29

that I saw or experienced occasionally. They're

0:31

things that I still think I

0:33

wonder what that was. This

0:38

episode is brought to you by BetterHelp Therapy

0:41

online. For 10% off

0:43

your first month,

0:45

go to betterhelp.com/secret.

0:53

My guest on today's show was a child psychic.

0:56

When she flexed her youthful powers, the

0:58

adults in Vicki's life listened with rapt

1:00

attention. Now as an adult,

1:03

she joins me to tell her secret. Hi

1:07

Vicki and welcome to the Seeker Room. It's

1:10

great to be here Ben. You have a very unique

1:12

secret that I'm really excited to get into. And

1:16

depending on where the story goes, I might have

1:18

some follow-on questions for you toward the end. Yeah,

1:21

no problem. Okay, you might be able to guess

1:23

what kind of questions I'm going to ask. I

1:25

don't know. And you're speaking to

1:27

us from Melbourne, is that where you grew up? Melbourne,

1:30

Australia, yeah, it's the southern part

1:32

of Australia. And I grew up kind

1:35

of out of the main city. It was

1:37

pretty much a beautiful countryside by

1:39

the river and lots of trees. And

1:42

yeah, I had a quite idyllic childhood, basically

1:44

swimming in the river and climbing trees a

1:46

lot. I was a, what would have once

1:48

been called a tomboy, I guess. And

1:51

how many siblings did you have? I

1:53

have two older sisters and two older brothers. So

1:56

I was the baby. But by

1:58

the time I came along, my old, older

2:00

sister was married with a daughter who's basically

2:02

the same age as me. So we kind

2:05

of grew up like sisters almost.

2:07

Oh, that's quite a spread. Yeah,

2:10

big spread. So at first there was

2:12

five of us. The other ones were quite older.

2:14

So they grew up

2:16

and moved out and my

2:19

parents eventually separated and that

2:21

left just my mum, my sister who's two years

2:23

older and me. Secrets

2:26

were a part of your life starting very early,

2:28

right? They were, yes.

2:31

Something I really, really didn't

2:33

like was there were some secrets that we

2:35

were expected to keep, yeah. Can you tell

2:37

me about those? Well

2:39

the first one I was aware of

2:41

was when I asked

2:43

my mother, where did you

2:45

and dad get married? And

2:48

she paused for a moment and then said,

2:50

darling, we didn't actually get married. Wow. And

2:52

to me that was just like, oh, that's

2:54

funny because I only asked because my friend

2:56

said, my mum and dad got married in

2:58

this church. My mum and dad got married

3:00

there. I'd never heard my

3:03

mum talk about it and didn't worry

3:05

me at all. But she said, don't

3:07

tell your older brother because

3:09

my older brother was famously the

3:11

conservative of the family, I think. And she

3:13

said he wouldn't like that. No one else

3:16

seemed to care. Did that mean

3:18

you could tell other people, just not the one

3:20

brother? I look, I got the

3:22

feeling I wasn't supposed to tell anyone

3:24

really. Yeah, I would be careful. But

3:26

in particular, don't talk about it to your

3:29

brother. Yeah. Did she tell you why they never

3:31

got married? No, she never

3:33

told me. But I know

3:35

my father was married before and he

3:37

never got divorced. Interesting

3:40

part of Melbourne culture, we have trams. I

3:43

think they're a bit like trolley cars in

3:45

San Francisco. And my dad was

3:47

a tram driver and my mother was a conductor

3:49

who sold the tickets on the tram when they

3:51

met. And he was 11 years

3:54

older than her and married when they met

3:56

and fell in love. And he had Two

3:58

daughters, so I've got two half-years. This do

4:00

what. They formed a relationship and he left

4:02

his wife and a my mother got some

4:04

of the together twenty five years and had

4:07

five kids with never actually. Married look out

4:09

for me that slides? Yeah, Sure, sure that's

4:11

that's fine. Of course there are good reasons

4:13

for the information to be shared though. Just

4:16

in terms of whom are us as a

4:18

shared or parental rights are other things. Answer?

4:20

In those days it was early nineteen

4:23

seventies. it was. It wasn't late

4:25

enough something. That was acceptable to general

4:27

society as I think. Earnest? Yes,

4:29

Well, there must have been a

4:32

surprise and and an awful burden

4:34

to bear. Your. Six years old

4:36

at the time, cent right for terrorists and

4:38

up on August Six. Or maybe maybe. Just

4:41

Seven I know. My mother told me later

4:43

she said i waited for you and seven

4:45

or nearly seven because she said that it

4:47

difficult events or traumatic events don't have six

4:49

kids out of the I just seven. So

4:52

much as he kind of why to as

4:54

well as exactly seven. The four seed separated

4:56

from my father, but to be honest, my

4:58

relationship with my father was not close. Their

5:01

separation didn't affect me greatly on my side

5:03

because sadness. He was a kind of a

5:05

distant all the father kind of thing. He

5:07

was never. Really involved so it wasn't a big

5:10

deal to me. I had sex with her Other

5:12

secrets as he has to to keep. Yes,

5:14

there were. While my parents

5:16

were still together my mother used to take

5:18

me with her pretty much every way of

5:21

it's the baby and we were quite close

5:23

but I remember his she's going shopping and

5:25

on the all come with the and she

5:27

says no you can't come with me you

5:29

can come with me and other got very

5:32

upset and she finally said okay you can

5:34

come with me but just. Don't tell anything

5:36

to have thought about where we got. Him.

5:39

And see has a boyfriend!

5:42

Oh my. Yeah, see,

5:44

that's nice man who lived sort

5:46

of that in the countryside. And

5:49

I'll go have a day. And he had Ferrets.

5:52

Are as. Always been an animal lover so

5:54

others fascinated by the ferrets a his a

5:56

you play with the ferrets and stay outside

5:58

climb the trees other the. The great and

6:00

year just don't say thing to my

6:03

dad about where we went so I

6:05

didn't always have an honest caught a

6:07

child. if anyone had asked me I

6:09

guess I would as tell them the

6:11

truth but I didn't ever reveal anything

6:13

that I remember When we got back

6:15

hi my mom would get under the

6:17

dashboard of the car and she was

6:19

rolling back the miles on the. Whatever.

6:22

It is in yeah, Gillis, how how

6:24

five travelled on. She was rolling that

6:26

back manual least in case my father

6:29

saw how far we traveled. Wow.

6:31

She's a year Very industrious

6:34

woman. Yes he is. His

6:36

car is also cites or that for

6:38

I would say so as it. Sounds

6:40

kind of society, but she was. even though there

6:42

was secrecy, the pictures. Of open woman, very

6:45

warm. Very loving and I saw nothing

6:47

wrong. And what she was doing because of who

6:49

she was. She knows a real that's what I was

6:51

gonna have. Did you have a sense of the time.

6:54

That. You were being us to cover

6:56

of something that was no right. No.

6:59

It was more like a game. It was

7:01

fun! So lovely man that we to go

7:03

to. Say he was very friendly and he

7:05

would give me a toys occasionally and say.

7:07

It's. Fell off the back of a

7:09

track system such as it sounds

7:12

nice Oh wow. Imagine driving along

7:14

the road saying toys falling off

7:16

it's flock is guy So lucky.

7:18

Yes he was he would go into at. A

7:21

pub? A hotel. And does that be

7:23

Some men selling. Some things are fell off a

7:25

backlit trucks and he was. Very nice and

7:27

very generous, so I thought he was great that

7:29

it was it's like a game to me that

7:32

we couldn't reveal where we wins. It was

7:34

so much fun with the ferrets and

7:36

playing in a creek and saurian old

7:38

farm. It was great. Your.

7:40

Parents' marriage didn't last know.

7:42

Ah, My mom actually left my

7:44

father. And so does your mother have an income?

7:47

So yet and and that the hit

7:49

the he comes Another secret. Sensors

7:52

and it. sounds club series

7:54

but as a sort of is like

7:56

disallow the fun thing that we not

7:58

meant to say anything about But she

8:00

was working at a psychiatric

8:02

hospital like a nurse's

8:05

aide, I think. And she was also

8:07

getting what I think was then called

8:09

the deserted wives pension. It

8:11

sounds like we're raking in

8:14

this money illegally, but truly

8:16

we were not. I found the

8:18

receipts for the house we lived

8:20

in and it was owned

8:22

by the tramway board. You know, I mentioned we have

8:24

trams and that's how my parents met. That our

8:27

house was owned by the public transport organisation

8:29

and it was painted green because that's the

8:31

same colour as the buses. And we paid

8:33

$8 a week rent. So it was bad.

8:36

$8 a week? $8 a week. Yeah, it was

8:38

about in the 1970s. Well still.

8:41

Yeah. So my mother was, she went back

8:43

to work when I was still quite a

8:46

baby really. She was always busy

8:48

working and, but she

8:50

was also getting a deserted wives

8:52

pension. And she'd

8:54

say to myself and my

8:57

sister, now when I go

8:59

to work, don't tell the neighbour on the

9:01

left, don't tell them I'm going

9:03

to work because they know I get the pension. Oh,

9:06

okay. But the neighbour on the other side, they

9:08

know I go to work, but they don't know I

9:11

get the pension. So don't ever mention

9:13

that. So complicated. It was a bit ominous

9:15

because she would say, I will then owe

9:17

money and I'll go to jail. Oh my

9:19

God. And you'll have to pay it back

9:21

when you get older or something. Oh, it's terrible.

9:23

So that was scary. What a burden to put

9:25

on you. Yeah, it was. It

9:28

was like you'll be made a ward of

9:30

the state. You'll be put into care and

9:32

I'll go to jail. So don't tell anyone.

9:35

So that was hard. Better

9:37

keep your mouth shut. Exactly. Yeah.

9:40

So a couple of questions about that. Sure. Were

9:42

you supposed to keep that secret about your mom's getting

9:44

the deserted wives pension because in order

9:46

to qualify for the pension, she could not hold

9:49

a job? That's right. And

9:51

that was obviously illegal to claim

9:54

the pension and also be

9:56

working. I mean, I'm sure she could have

9:58

done some work, but I think she was working for. full

10:00

time and also claiming a pension.

10:02

She thought it was a

10:04

good way to get extra money, which we

10:06

certainly did need. We were never wealthy, but

10:08

it was a scary thought for me in

10:11

my whole childhood that if I said the

10:13

wrong thing, my mother would go to jail

10:15

and I'd be put in home. I would

10:17

think so. Yeah. That's quite a lot to lay

10:19

on a kid. My other question

10:21

is, if your parents weren't married, how

10:23

did she qualify for the deserted wives pension?

10:26

Yeah, that's a good... I don't know actually. I

10:30

imagine there's some provisor for

10:33

like if you've born a child to

10:35

someone, I imagine. Maybe they

10:37

were common law. Yeah, I think something like

10:39

that. At least when she was talking to us,

10:41

she called it the deserted wives pension. And I

10:43

remember as a child thinking, you weren't deserted, you ran

10:47

off. She was the one who

10:49

did the deserting. Oh yeah, she did

10:51

the deserting there. But as a child, you

10:53

don't fully understand all of that. Right, and

10:55

these are all things that became clear to

10:58

you with age. That's

11:00

right, yeah. So you told me

11:02

when we were talking before the interview that you have early

11:05

memories of your mom making some other kinds of visits that

11:07

she took you on. That's right. She'd

11:09

say, oh, we're going to the spooks, which is

11:11

what she would call the psychics.

11:16

And it's the trips to the spooks that open

11:18

a gateway to where things start to go a

11:20

bit sideways for Vicki. Hang on.

11:23

We'll be right back. This

11:32

episode is brought to you by Better Help

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12:41

Check the show notes. And

12:46

we're back as our heroine just seven years old,

12:48

is about to take her first trips to the

12:50

psychic with mom. We'd

12:52

go to like a suburban house. I'd

12:55

sit in the front room usually and she'd go

12:57

into another room and be in there for a

12:59

while. It's a little bit boring while she was

13:01

in there. There were other mothers or middle-aged ladies

13:03

sitting around waiting and she'd come out and say,

13:05

oh, right, right. Let's go

13:07

home. Oh, she'd be happy because she'd generally

13:10

been told some some good news to expect

13:12

some good fortune coming her way or something.

13:14

That gave her comfort or gave her hope,

13:16

I think. But I didn't really understand it

13:18

and I thought that's just what you do.

13:21

You go to these people and

13:23

they make you feel good. They tell you something

13:25

that you don't know already. And yeah,

13:27

that was just an accepted part of our lives.

13:30

And did you see this extend into other parts

13:32

of your life? Apart from

13:35

the going to private psychic, most

13:37

weeks we'd go to a spiritualist

13:39

church. I know now

13:41

I've looked into the background, the history of

13:44

it. It's a movement that started basically in

13:46

the 1800s. It

13:48

was not just a belief in

13:50

paranormal. It was very much like a

13:52

movement where they were incorporating beliefs in

13:54

God and even incorporating some parts of

13:57

the Bible. It was sort of Christian.

14:01

but it also had

14:03

spirits, talking to spirits,

14:05

reincarnation and other things along with

14:08

it. So we'd go on a Sunday, usually my

14:10

mother, my sister and me, but once my sister

14:12

was a little bit older, she would just go

14:14

to a neighbour's house. I didn't think she really

14:16

liked it. It's in an old

14:18

church hall. Sometimes even do a reading from

14:21

the Bible, I think we'd sing hymns like

14:23

you do in regular church. But as soon

14:25

as that finished, everyone was just waiting for

14:27

the psychic to take the stage. That

14:30

was the main draw. Yeah, for sure.

14:33

And maybe the cake, the tea and coffee

14:35

and cake at the end. Oh yes,

14:38

of course. But for me, that was the main draw. That

14:40

was the main draw for you as a six, seven year

14:42

old. But it was a normal thing.

14:44

Before we went to church, we would go

14:46

and pick some flowers. We were told to

14:48

pick flowers and hold them in our hands.

14:51

The flowers would then take on our vibrations.

14:54

Sometimes people would give them an object like

14:56

a watch or a piece of jewellery that

14:58

they'd been holding. But usually it was a

15:01

standard thing to take some flowers, drop

15:03

them on a tray and the

15:05

end of the service, everyone would sit

15:07

down again and they'd pick up a

15:09

flower and say, I'm getting a feeling

15:11

from this flower. There's someone coming through

15:13

from the other side. Normally. Their names

15:15

start to be all of the things

15:17

you normally associate with a psychic, a

15:19

medium. And yeah, because

15:22

I was young and there wasn't many

15:24

children at the church, there was very

15:26

rarely children, but my mother tended to

15:28

take me with her everywhere. And I

15:31

was probably seven years old. And

15:34

they had a belief that if

15:36

you're young, you're still very close to the

15:39

spirit world because you're freshly

15:42

born and you've just come from

15:44

that. So you have natural psychic

15:46

abilities. But also

15:48

the head psychic predicted that

15:50

I was going to be a very good

15:53

medium when I grew up. She said, one day

15:55

you'll be up here doing what I do.

15:57

And my mother was really proud. What

16:00

did you think about that? Oh, that was fantastic. I

16:02

couldn't wait. The head

16:04

psychic was this very glamorous

16:06

blonde woman. His name changed.

16:10

It's funny to think about now, but I think her name was Shirley

16:13

originally and then she said, I want you

16:15

all to call me Cheryl.

16:18

Her spirit guide had said to change

16:20

her name and then she said, it's Cheryl, but

16:22

I want you to pronounce it Cheryl. So

16:25

we had to keep up with each week. Her

16:27

name is slightly changing and then she finished with

16:29

no, it's actually, you need to call

16:31

me Shay. So for the most of

16:34

the time that I knew her, she was called

16:36

Shay and she was lovely, really friendly,

16:38

warm, kind of glamorous

16:41

woman. Very charismatic. Yeah,

16:43

she was charismatic. And when

16:45

she said one day you'll be up here doing

16:47

what I do, I thought, well, of course, what

16:50

a great life that would be. Everyone

16:53

looks up to you and your psychic

16:55

medium. Everyone hangs on every word you

16:57

say. You know, it's

17:00

a position of kind of power amongst

17:02

the community. I thought this would be

17:05

fantastic. So everyone would look

17:07

at me and go, oh, that's exciting. You're going

17:09

to be a medium one day too. Wow.

17:12

My mom was so proud. Yeah, my mom was

17:14

proud and I thought, well, yeah, of

17:16

course I'm going to do that. Did

17:19

you get readings too? I did.

17:22

I would take flowers in with

17:24

my mother and because I

17:26

was a child, it was very easy

17:28

for them to predict my future. The

17:31

adults would get things like take care of

17:33

your chest, I think, and see a test

17:35

infection coming your way. But I would get

17:38

things about my whole life. I remember

17:40

my sister being told she was going

17:42

to marry a diplomat and

17:45

travel the world. And

17:47

I was told I was going to

17:49

be a famous psychic medium and be

17:51

up on stage and known by everybody.

17:54

Were you busy calculating what versions of your name

17:56

you would use? No,

17:59

I presume I... spirit guide would let

18:01

me know if I needed to change

18:03

my name because that was again an

18:05

accepted part of our lives. Everyone had

18:07

a spirit guide. I had a spirit

18:09

guide. It's kind of strange now I

18:11

think about it but as a child in the school

18:13

yard when I was quite young, if

18:16

I'd fallen over or I was being bullied and

18:18

needed to find my older sister, I would

18:21

ask my spirit guide to find my sister

18:23

for me and she usually

18:26

showed up eventually. I guess it

18:28

works. It works. It was just a

18:30

normal part of our lives that we would ask,

18:33

mom would ask spirit, ask spirit

18:35

for guidance. We just

18:37

did for pretty much everything. So your mom

18:39

is, she's tickled pink that she's got a

18:41

psychic in the fam. Maybe

18:44

your powers might even be stronger than

18:46

Shae's. Yes. I

18:49

would imagine that she would start asking you questions

18:51

that would be appropriate to ask a psychic. Did

18:54

she do that? She really did.

18:56

So she would ask me

18:58

about her spirit guide

19:01

and my spirit guide. There's

19:03

so many aspects to spiritualism

19:06

that I can remember. So

19:09

there was things like auras. She

19:13

asked me for the color of

19:15

different people's auras and just general

19:17

what is someone coming through from

19:19

the other side, what messages do

19:21

they have. And I was a

19:23

fairly quiet child, reserved and avid

19:26

book reader. And I think that

19:29

helped inspire a lot of

19:31

what I eventually came out with. So

19:34

yeah. So what did you say when

19:36

she asked you about say your

19:38

sister's aura? Okay. Well, everyone

19:40

had an aura. They were all different

19:42

colors and the different colors meant something

19:45

different. So I

19:47

remember staring at my

19:49

sister's head and my mother

19:51

would say around top of her head, there'll

19:54

be colors. And

19:56

I could not really see

19:59

any colors unless I If you

20:01

look at any blank space and I say what colors do

20:03

you see, you think no I can't see anything, I can see what? If

20:06

I keep saying what colors do you see what colors do

20:08

you see? You will eventually

20:10

come up with something. Well, it's a

20:12

little bit greenish actually. Oh green

20:15

and my mother would just she would run

20:17

With that green. Oh, wow. What color is

20:19

mine? Mmm Purple.

20:23

Oh, that means I'm spiritual. Oh, that's fantastic So

20:27

there was lots of reading of auras

20:29

My mother had a boyfriend and she would

20:31

often say who were we in a past

20:33

life? And I would come

20:36

up with she loved it when I

20:38

said you were an Egyptian princess

20:41

and he was your slave She

20:43

thought that was Fantastic. Wow,

20:45

and you just came up with us. I did

20:48

I did and I was Aware

20:52

that among the psychic amongst the

20:55

spiritual spiritualist church everyone

20:58

had Spirit

21:00

guides who are often strangely enough

21:02

Native Americans From

21:04

what I said, they had similar beliefs

21:06

about reincarnation and spirits guiding you So

21:09

the head psychic at our church had

21:12

a chief a Native American chief

21:15

Past lives and reincarnation they were

21:17

never just ordinary folks

21:20

You usually an Egyptian princess as

21:22

someone who was beheaded for treason,

21:24

you know, it's never just well

21:27

You just grew old and died and you know, it was

21:29

always something exciting so my mother loved

21:31

when I came out with princesses

21:33

and Spies and

21:35

warriors who died dramatic deaths.

21:37

Yep So I

21:40

want to be clear then when you

21:42

were seven coming up with

21:44

all of these psychic observations and predictions

21:46

Yeah, and information about

21:48

past lives and auras and whatnot Were

21:51

you aware that you were just

21:53

making it up or did you feel

21:55

that it was indeed? Something

21:57

coming from within you that you had

21:59

a story sense that was special.

22:03

You know it's actually hard to tell the

22:05

difference because if somebody

22:07

says you can see things that other people

22:09

can't and you're thinking oh

22:12

okay, alright, what am I meant to

22:14

be looking at and they will tell you

22:16

what you're meant to be seeing and you

22:18

think initially well I can't see that but

22:21

if they keep asking you, your

22:23

mind creates something

22:26

and I thought that's what it

22:29

is and that must be what being psychic is.

22:31

If I stare low enough I

22:33

can see a colour or

22:35

if I think hard enough about what my mother

22:38

was in another life, something pops

22:40

into my head. So

22:42

maybe that must be what spiritualism being

22:44

a psychic is. Those

22:46

ideas were put there by spirits. So

22:51

I thought that's what it meant. Yeah,

22:53

so okay, so you were

22:55

a believer at that point. I

22:58

think I was. I was a believer in

23:00

whatever it was to me. You

23:03

have to put your faith in beings

23:05

from another world. They will

23:07

guide you and if you

23:09

kind of believe it will exist even

23:12

though it doesn't in other ways and

23:14

there were things that I can't explain

23:17

that I saw or experienced occasionally. There

23:19

are things that I still think I

23:21

wonder what that was but

23:24

now I think there's probably

23:26

a really simple explanation for

23:29

it and to think that it was spirits

23:31

from another world appearing

23:34

or doing things is drawing

23:37

a very long bow. It's

23:39

not really logical to me now that that's

23:41

the best explanation for things. Am

23:44

I hearing you say that your mother asks you

23:46

if you saw spirits? Yes, oh

23:48

yes, all the time. And what did you say?

23:51

She would say, who's in the house now? That

23:53

would be people who are not alive

23:55

basically, ghosts. So

23:57

I would look around and. my

24:00

mind would come up with something

24:03

like, oh, there's a man in

24:05

a black hat in the corner of the room. And

24:08

the moment I mentioned I could

24:10

see something, my mother would

24:12

get very excited. Any other adults who are

24:14

present would get very excited and ask me

24:16

more and more questions. And it was kind

24:18

of rewarding as a child growing up as

24:20

the youngest and my mother had grandchildren virtually

24:23

the time I was born and she was

24:25

working full time and she had a boyfriend.

24:28

I didn't get much attention from her. So

24:30

having her hanging on my every word was

24:32

kind of rewarding for young child and having

24:34

adults going, ooh, tell me

24:36

more. It just kept self

24:39

perpetuating. And so who

24:41

was the old man in the black hat? Oh,

24:44

look, I can't remember now but all

24:46

I needed to do was say I saw something like

24:48

that. And they would say, oh

24:51

yes, this house used to belong

24:53

to someone who died. There'd

24:55

be a story. I remember telling my

24:57

mum I saw a group of children

24:59

in our front garden and she said,

25:02

well, there was a kindergarten

25:05

here and there was a fire and lots of children

25:08

died. That must be what you can see. Oh

25:10

my gosh. So there was always something and

25:14

I don't know if that's true or not but I

25:17

just needed to say, I saw a figure, I

25:19

saw something and

25:22

they wanted to believe it so much. They would

25:24

help me out. They would say, oh, that must

25:26

be this. Well, of course, even

25:28

when I got things blatantly wrong,

25:30

they wanted it to be true

25:32

so much. They would help me

25:34

out of those situations. I remember

25:37

saying to my mother, you were

25:39

a glamorous flapper in

25:41

1928, dancing

25:43

in the jazz bar. And she says, darling,

25:46

I was alive in 1928. And

25:48

I went, oh, oh. Cause

25:51

everything I'd always said to her was always,

25:53

oh, that's great. That's amazing. And she said,

25:55

no, I was alive. Oh, the charade is

25:57

out. And then she jumped in. Yeah,

25:59

she jumped. did this. It must

26:01

have been 1828 and I was ahead of my

26:03

time and I said yes, yes,

26:06

that's right. So it

26:08

didn't take much for them to not

26:10

only accept whatever I said,

26:12

but they would help me out in

26:15

any way to make it true for

26:17

them. What an interesting dynamic. It

26:19

was very affirming for you because you were

26:22

getting so much positive feedback and must have

26:24

been a lot of fun to roll with

26:26

it and get all the praise. You're just

26:28

a kid. It really was. Yeah,

26:31

it was. I remember being

26:33

at the spiritualist church

26:36

and Shay was drawing

26:38

something. At the end of the service,

26:40

she came and said, who is this? And

26:43

I had what I would now call an

26:45

imaginary playmate. My mother

26:48

said, asking his name, she assumed immediately

26:50

that's the spirit. And I

26:52

said, oh, he says his name is Sam. So

26:54

Shay showed me a picture she had drawn

26:56

of a young man in a

26:58

sailor suit. And I said, oh, that's Sam.

27:01

And that was amazing. My mother said

27:03

that was fantastic. She said, well, that's your

27:06

spirit guide. He was a sailor. He

27:08

died at sea and you were married in

27:10

a previous life. I'm like, oh, fantastic. So

27:13

I had this spirit guide called Sam, who

27:15

was my previous husband in

27:17

another life at Diet Sea. Now,

27:20

looking back, it was just an

27:23

imaginary friend you play with occasionally, but

27:25

maybe just taken to a more

27:27

extreme degree. It is quite enthralling.

27:29

I mean, you know, getting

27:31

lost in these stories is really fun.

27:33

It really is. And if you want

27:35

to believe it, I could see somebody

27:37

making the leap quite easily. And

27:40

it makes life more interesting, more

27:43

colourful, more fun. That's why people

27:45

want it. And it gives hope to

27:48

people. Yes. As I explained,

27:50

we weren't wealthy, but my mother

27:52

was of the belief that if

27:54

we believe strongly enough and we

27:56

ask spirit for guidance, we

27:58

would eventually be be prosperous and

28:00

happy as a child. They

28:03

think, well, of course I'll go along with

28:05

that and our life will change someday eventually.

28:09

There was a brand new house in our

28:11

town. It was a very 1970s, modern, really

28:13

big. She

28:16

would drive us past and say, we're going to live in

28:18

that house one day. I'm like,

28:20

fantastic. I can have a horse. I can

28:22

have dogs. She'd say, what bedroom

28:25

do you want? I said, I want the one

28:27

on the end. So I believe that this was

28:29

going to happen one day. She would say, that's

28:31

going to be our house. And we were in

28:33

a little old fibro cement

28:36

shack. It was falling down. It

28:38

was owned by the public transport board, but

28:40

we were going to have this beautiful house

28:42

one day. And I know

28:44

she said to me, well, we're going

28:46

to win Tatslotto. Tatslotto is a

28:49

lotto game in Australia. It's

28:51

run weekly. Of

28:54

course she asked me to tell her

28:56

the numbers that would win. Of

28:59

course. So, um,

29:01

I said, Oh, okay. Uh,

29:04

two, four, six,

29:08

eight. She's writing them down. She goes,

29:11

darling, you're just saying the two times

29:13

table, which I'd probably

29:15

memorized at school. Oh,

29:17

gee, maybe I am 13, 19. I

29:22

carried on. She's like, that's better. So these

29:24

Tatslotto numbers, which I remember a two, four,

29:26

six, eight, 13, 19,

29:29

26, where our Tatslotto

29:31

numbers for years and they

29:34

never, they never came up. How

29:36

did you explain that? Um, my mother explained,

29:38

Oh, well, I think they came up the

29:40

week that we didn't put an entry in,

29:42

or I think it was

29:45

just one number wrong. You know, there's

29:47

always an excuse and there was lots

29:49

of excuses for the psychic

29:51

predictions from the church as well. Like

29:53

I remember they famously said, Oh,

29:56

to my mother. I can see, um, grandchildren.

30:00

see lots of boys and

30:02

everyone went on to have girls,

30:05

girls and girls, girls. All

30:07

my brothers and sisters had girls and the

30:10

next generation were boys. So my mother

30:12

waited maybe 30 years

30:14

and said, see, there's the

30:17

boys that were predicted. They happened

30:19

eventually. So the lottery

30:21

win never happened. And

30:24

I was starting to think this is hollow,

30:27

all these ideas about just put your

30:29

faith in spirits, they'll guide you and

30:32

believe in this and you'll

30:34

be prosperous and have a happy life.

30:36

I was starting to think this doesn't

30:39

seem to work. So you're

30:41

starting to see some cracks. I was starting

30:43

to see some cracks. Yeah, as

30:45

I got a little bit older. Also,

30:48

there were so many inconsistencies. Like

30:50

I'm I guess I'm a

30:52

fairly logical person, even as a child, and

30:54

I would hear one version of

30:58

spiritualism from someone and then a slightly

31:00

different version from someone else. So

31:03

they all believed in reincarnation and spirits

31:05

and spirit guides. But I had an

31:07

auntie who was also my whole family

31:09

brought up in spiritualist church. She believed

31:11

in everything. She also believed in fairies.

31:14

And my mother was kind of on the fence

31:16

about fairies. I thought, well, they're either exist or

31:19

they don't. How can one person think they're real?

31:21

The other person doesn't. And

31:24

there's a lot of things about evil

31:26

spirits. Like I was worried about

31:28

evil spirits. I did some reading in books

31:30

my mother had and there were some really

31:32

scary stories about evil spirits coming

31:35

and taking over. And everyone

31:37

reminded me they are drawn to those

31:39

who are clairvoyant, who can see them.

31:42

So they will come to people who who

31:44

are psychic. And I was terrified

31:47

of this. And there was things you encounter

31:49

in evil spirit. You must say this. Say,

31:52

you're not wanted here. Go back to

31:54

the light or something. And

31:56

different versions of what you should say. But then other

31:58

people said, no, no, no. A child will

32:00

never see an evil spirit. It doesn't work

32:03

that way. So I just wanted some consistency.

32:05

I was like, ah, I'm really frightened about

32:07

this thing, but I don't fully understand if

32:09

it's real or not because

32:11

I'm getting conflicting stories about what it

32:13

is and what I should do. I

32:16

was not doubtful, but I was

32:18

frustrated by the inconsistencies in the

32:20

whole system. Right. I

32:23

mean, it makes sense that at some point you would start

32:26

putting the pieces together and

32:28

seeing that they don't really fit all that well. You

32:32

said your mom had believed in reincarnation, right? Yes.

32:35

Were there other stories about past life?

32:39

I'd love to hear some more stories about that.

32:43

My mother was very forthright,

32:45

down to earth woman. She

32:48

was really well liked by everybody. And

32:50

she accepted spiritualism and the spirit realm

32:52

as just a normal part of her

32:54

life. And I remember taking

32:56

her, this was when I

32:59

was older, when I was an adult, I

33:01

took her to a beautiful tulip farm up

33:03

in the mountains here and it's

33:05

just beautiful colors everywhere. She said, I've

33:07

never liked tulips. I think

33:09

I must have been raped by a Dutchman in

33:11

a previous life. Oh my goodness.

33:14

And like, oh, okay. It's

33:17

a pretty heavy, but I want to explain why

33:20

you don't like tulips, I suppose. Wow.

33:23

Yeah. Other stories of past

33:25

lives were a little bit dark.

33:28

Yeah. She didn't mind going to the dark side

33:31

at all. She had quite a dark sense of

33:33

humor, as you can tell. Do you

33:35

have another story? So I remember

33:37

telling her that she was once an

33:40

Egyptian princess and her boyfriend was her

33:42

slave. And she was very

33:44

excited about that. I had a lot of other past

33:47

lives for her. I can't remember them all

33:49

now, but every different iteration I had, she

33:52

loved it, especially for something colorful

33:54

and dramatic. Yeah. She

33:56

loved that. Wow. She loves it.

33:58

The drama. was condemned

34:00

to death. She was delighted by

34:02

that rather than being

34:05

saddened or you know frightened by

34:07

it. She loved it. Anything dramatic,

34:09

exciting and colorful and that's the

34:11

thing. If you have a

34:13

past life that is far more exciting than

34:15

the one you have now, that makes life

34:17

more interesting. It makes you more interesting as

34:20

a person. It satisfies a lot

34:22

of those cravings we have for adventure and

34:24

drama and glamour. You just say it happened

34:26

to me in a previous life. Yeah. So

34:29

she was always obsessed with gypsies and loved anything

34:31

to do with gypsies. I guess because

34:33

they also have these beliefs that they

34:36

can tell fortunes. Goodness. And I told

34:38

her she was a gypsy born with

34:40

many lovers. She loved that. She would

34:43

repeat it to anyone who heard because

34:45

it made her more colorful

34:48

and more interesting. As

34:50

your mom is getting more and more

34:52

into you know your psychic abilities, I

34:55

mean she's not the type of person that's going

34:57

to keep this close. Did word of your talents

35:00

spread? Yes. Amongst

35:02

the family I was like the

35:04

go-to psychic for things

35:06

like past lives or

35:09

as automatic writing. My sister

35:11

and I would do that on occasion. That's

35:13

where you start writing and you

35:15

just let spirit take over. But I also

35:17

remember it didn't really work unless you tried

35:19

to actually write something yourself. But I thought

35:21

that was what how you did it. You

35:24

can't just hold the pen and it will

35:26

work automatically. You kind of have to move

35:28

the pen and kind of have to make

35:30

some kind of words. Like a Ouija

35:33

board. Kind of like a Ouija board.

35:35

We never actually used a Ouija board because the

35:37

spiritualist church thought that was a little bit so

35:39

busy as having a Ouija board. Ouija boards

35:42

are so gimmicky aren't they? That's

35:44

right. They thought they were gimmicky. But I did know

35:46

some people who used them. And so

35:48

what did you tell your sister about

35:50

her former life? Yeah,

35:56

she apparently had some psychic

35:58

powers as well. but I

36:00

was far stronger than her.

36:03

I remember having a fight with my

36:05

sister, I would tell her things like,

36:07

you were a slave who had to

36:09

clean the king's toilet in a past

36:11

life as an insult. And

36:13

she had no comeback from that because what

36:15

can you do? Right,

36:18

because you were the medium. Yeah,

36:21

I was the voice of truth

36:23

for the family. Yep, the ultimate truth.

36:26

And so did Shay claim

36:28

that your sister also had

36:30

psychic abilities? Not

36:33

that I remember, no. My sister was

36:35

not so interested in it as

36:37

me because she was a little bit older.

36:40

No, I was chosen

36:42

as the one who had the ability,

36:44

yeah. Was your sister onto you a

36:46

little bit or she believed it? No,

36:49

not at all. We never spoke

36:51

of it, but I was better at

36:53

it than she was, for whatever reason.

36:56

Yeah, I mean, to this day, I think you could

36:58

pull it off quite well. I'm

37:01

lucky enough to have a job I love, but if I

37:03

was ever down on my luck, I

37:05

would be a really good psychic.

37:10

No doubt, you've got the training for it. Yeah,

37:13

yeah, and I know how they work. I'm

37:15

actually just right now reading Harry

37:18

Houdini's book. It's called A

37:20

Magician Amongst the Spirits. I'm only

37:22

up to chapter two, but I'm loving it

37:24

because he's saying how the

37:26

spiritualist movement started in the 1800s. There

37:29

were two sisters called the Fox sisters who

37:31

were basically playing tricks on

37:33

their family. I'm thinking, gee, I can kind

37:36

of relate to this. And it just kind

37:38

of took off. People were fascinated and wanted

37:40

to believe it. So it became a famous

37:42

thing. And next thing you know, there's

37:44

a whole movement which spread across

37:46

the world. And on their

37:48

deathbed, one of them said, we made it all up. We

37:50

made it all up. Were you worried

37:53

what would happen if your mom discovered

37:55

your ruse? Not at

37:57

all. She was a... Like

38:00

my enabler, if you know what I

38:03

mean. She was there to support, encourage,

38:05

and even if I got things wrong,

38:08

she would jump in with a reason

38:10

why that didn't work. I'm

38:13

worried that your mom might have made some life

38:15

decisions based on your whimsy that didn't work out

38:17

so well. Look,

38:21

there was never anything where I said,

38:23

you have to do something.

38:25

I think if I ever did, she would have,

38:28

or she would have tried to. But no,

38:30

there was never anything, thankfully,

38:33

that I gave her advice on,

38:35

which went really badly. Nor

38:38

did I ever say, oh, the spirits

38:40

are saying, mom, you have to buy me a

38:42

new bicycle for Christmas. I could

38:44

have done that. I know, I never

38:46

did. I don't know why, but I

38:48

never did that sort of thing. You

38:50

had quite a lot of power that you did not

38:52

exercise. That's right, yes. I

38:55

rarely did it for anything but to keep

38:58

everyone happy, to answer their questions as best

39:00

I could and keep everyone happy. My

39:03

mom took me to a special night

39:05

at the spiritualist church where they were

39:07

having a séance. A lot

39:09

of the spiritualists would just communicate

39:12

with spirits like they were talking

39:14

to someone else on a daily

39:16

basis. They didn't think a séance

39:18

was necessary, but there were some

39:20

younger members of the church who

39:22

really wanted to do a full-on

39:24

classic séance. I

39:26

went there with my mother and it was, as

39:28

you would imagine, like a darkened hall with

39:31

chairs in a circle and a table in the

39:34

middle and a crystal ball. I

39:36

think it was just candlelight. The

39:38

young spiritualist looked at me and they

39:41

immediately said, well, you're going to be

39:43

the one who's going to connect to

39:45

the spirit first, easier than

39:47

any of us because you're young.

39:49

We're all holding hands and

39:52

she's saying, okay, now spirits are connecting

39:54

with us and they're going to show

39:56

us some visions in the crystal ball.

39:59

She's looking at me saying, sorry. So what can you see? And

40:02

I was thinking, I, I see

40:04

a ball. I can't see anything. And

40:06

she kept saying, what can you see? And

40:10

there was candle light kind of

40:12

shining on the crystal ball and

40:14

it sort of refracted into the blue

40:16

and red light. I said, I see

40:19

lights like a train, like a train lot.

40:21

She goes, you see a train

40:23

that represents travel. Someone is traveling. What else

40:26

can you see? So

40:28

I just went with it and the slightest

40:30

thing I thought I could see reflected, or

40:34

if I looked at the different shapes that were

40:36

showing up reflecting in the crystal ball, that became

40:38

what I could see. And they, they

40:40

love that. They just ran with it. And I

40:43

thought, well, this is really easy. Connecting

40:47

with the spirit world is easy. I just say

40:49

something like more like word association. I think

40:51

I see lights and the lights remind me

40:54

of a train. Train means travel. So

40:56

what else can I see that is connected to some

40:58

other thing that will excite the adults in the room? So

41:01

we did a few of those seances.

41:04

My mother would drive home and she was

41:06

like, Oh, that was great. You did a

41:08

really good job. And I felt

41:10

really proud that I could do

41:12

something so easily. For sure. I

41:15

never thought I was fully making it up. I

41:18

thought that's what you do. You just stare at

41:20

something to you, to a vision pops into your

41:22

head. And that's what it means to connect to

41:24

the spirit world. If you think you

41:26

hear a word, even if you don't,

41:28

that must be what it is. That's

41:31

the explanation. It's spirit. You mentioned

41:33

in your secret that you had duties assigned

41:35

to you as a family junior psychic. Yes.

41:38

We talked about automatic writing and

41:40

seeing auras. Going back to automatic

41:43

writing, what kinds of things would

41:46

be revealed in an automatic writing session?

41:49

Look, I don't remember any specific

41:52

things, but it was also just very general.

41:55

Any medium giving a reading,

41:57

there is strangely enough never anything

41:59

really. specific. A word that is

42:01

scribbled but looks like a particular

42:04

word can be interpreted as something.

42:07

So it's more general things like what's going to

42:09

happen in the future. If it's

42:11

the shape that looks like a heart you

42:13

go, someone's going to have heart problems. We

42:15

better watch out for our health. It could

42:17

be anything, symbols and signs. I

42:20

think people want to interpret patterns

42:23

in anything visual or words or

42:25

numbers. They want them to have meaning.

42:27

So they assign meaning to them when

42:29

maybe there isn't any there. But

42:31

automatic writing was kind of funny. You just

42:33

sat down and started scrolling and tried

42:36

to make your hand do something that was

42:38

like a word. That's all you really need

42:41

to do. Someone will say, oh wow, it

42:43

says there's a wedding ring. Someone's getting married.

42:45

Oh my gosh. Brett, jump all over that. One

42:48

of your other duties was to heal people? Yeah,

42:52

look, I didn't do a lot of this,

42:54

but if my mother was, if she had

42:56

a sore shoulder, I would

42:58

have to lay my hands on her

43:00

and she would always

43:02

claim that it was getting better. And

43:05

we were told always, if we were

43:08

sick, we could heal ourselves with

43:10

the power of spirit. Also, the

43:12

power of our minds. It was in

43:14

our power to heal ourselves from

43:16

disease and general aches and pains.

43:19

That was part of the spiritualist

43:21

church as well. They would have

43:23

healing sessions after the service. Anyone

43:26

who had any diseases, aches and

43:28

pains. They would go to you

43:30

or Shay and... I feel Shay didn't

43:32

do it herself. She had little offsiders

43:35

who were like lesser mediums

43:37

who would do some healing. And

43:39

some people were known for different

43:41

things like Shay was clairvoyance. I

43:43

mean, she heard spirit voice and

43:46

she had some associates. One was like,

43:48

he was a good healer, not so much a

43:50

clairvoyant. They all had their own little specialities.

43:53

And yeah, at home, I was expected to

43:55

do a little bit of everything. It seems

43:59

a little reckless. This healing

44:01

power. Hope nobody

44:03

ever you know avoided medical treatment

44:05

because they felt that they were

44:08

being healed. you know, by a

44:10

psychic power. I. Heard such

44:12

to and I don't remember. I know my

44:14

mother even though she worked in the medical

44:17

field. Three she were

44:19

to the psychiatric hospital. Cs.

44:22

A it interesting she and she

44:24

didn't like medicine priest like a

44:26

western medicine see was very skeptical

44:28

about it seemed press said anything

44:30

that wasn't West Ham isn't Chinese

44:32

medicine occupants it's natural paths that

44:34

author does the power of healing

44:36

see hated to take when she

44:39

was older she had it under

44:41

when of the stick to me

44:43

and see. Refused to take painkillers

44:45

afterwards. Oh my gosh, how do

44:47

you do that? He

44:50

ought and I see this. he did

44:52

though some don't even as an old

44:55

lady she was in hospital after bad

44:57

for and I would coming to give

44:59

her pain medication she would throw something

45:01

at the nurse and say tainted drugs

45:03

and get our yeah. Yes

45:06

is. Famously. Not

45:09

the nurses favorite patient.

45:11

has she refused pain

45:13

killers and unnecessary medications?

45:15

It's good to question, You know, is this really

45:17

necessary but see steadfastly refused and she actually wasn't

45:20

even going to have had the stick to me

45:22

to say I don't want to do that. Siddiqa.

45:25

Through the but the night before she

45:27

was due to have it had doctor

45:29

rang me and said your mother is

45:31

refusing to have this operation and he

45:33

was like ask made it convince her

45:35

thoughts on how do that but he

45:37

says you die a slow and painful

45:40

death unless you have this operation tomorrow

45:42

So. Together. The family convince

45:44

her to go through with it

45:46

that see refused any pain medication

45:48

afterwards. Ah yes she was not.

45:50

Strong on. On. On medicine

45:52

in in general to to have

45:55

a pain medication during those surgery.

45:57

Lbc. She had anesthetic I guess.

45:59

Whatever. See, The able. The goodness, Yes,

46:01

He had. To do but afterwards know

46:03

absolutely nothing other than one time that

46:05

speaking of the healy are to the

46:07

church service There was an visiting psychics

46:10

Sheila think from Sydney and my mother

46:12

always had a bit of sold. The

46:14

paid says she said of got some

46:16

shoulder pain and that's the heel will

46:19

com and lay hands on the person

46:21

and. Close. Their eyes and let it to

46:23

me to came a spirit heal this person. And.

46:26

See. Jumped. Up and

46:28

said. Already Crepe what

46:30

she's it's his hands were moving

46:32

to spot down my chest while

46:35

is trying to heal my sold

46:37

us out that I couldn't believe

46:39

it. You. This reputable psychic

46:41

would be basically having a feel of

46:43

my mother while he was meant to

46:45

do is really mess, according to her.

46:47

Was goodness gracious. We're.

46:51

Both services a moment of

46:53

realization. My mother also. Believed

46:55

in astral traveling. Would

46:58

tell us quip from his. Who.

47:00

Won a bronze and on unknown an

47:02

expert on this. I only know what

47:04

I was told. Certainly not an expert

47:06

on anything but awesome. seventies Where's your

47:08

spirit leaves your body. And

47:10

can travel. Anywhere,

47:12

It wants really. I have dreams where

47:14

I could fly by the soo do

47:16

think everyone does and I'll often also

47:19

have lucid dreams where I knew all

47:21

this dreaming. a my mother said boot

47:23

know that's not dream as as torn.

47:25

Traveling your spirit is leaving your body

47:27

when you're asleep and traveling. Either.

47:29

This is fantastic South though drains I

47:31

have on flying. Over at

47:34

green fields and trees. I'm

47:36

actually doing that. It's a very common

47:39

dreams according to my mother that was

47:41

s or traveling. While and sold

47:43

and could you take other people

47:45

on Prince? Not. Manifest

47:48

in your psychic ability? No,

47:50

you couldn't. and that

47:52

sir guy that was another these strange

47:54

inconsistency ice to ask questions like that

47:57

and no no you can only do

47:59

yourself and Can I meet up

48:01

with someone? Yes, you can meet with someone on

48:03

the astral plane if they're astral traveling at the

48:05

same time as you It didn't make

48:07

a lot of sense Even then to me

48:10

So it was one of the other things that caused

48:13

me to just question if this is really

48:15

real Because it not strong rules

48:17

applying there for astral traveling. What

48:20

was your relationship with evil spirits? Oh Yeah,

48:24

so I had heard the dangers

48:27

of Attracting evil spirits

48:29

and my mother has some books about

48:31

Spiritualism spirits and so on my adult

48:33

sister once gave her a book for

48:36

her birthday It was called the occult

48:38

my mother was horrified because the

48:40

occult is kind of the dark art and

48:43

My mother considered what she believed in was

48:45

a positive thing a

48:48

spiritual thing We never called

48:50

it the occult, but I know this book

48:52

had some very terrifying images in

48:54

it It's as a child really

48:57

horrified me and had stories

48:59

of demon possession and evil spirits

49:02

hanging around people so

49:04

I was Terrified terrified

49:06

as a child of evil spirits

49:10

I was always trying to remember what I had been

49:12

told to do if one

49:14

came to me so I would

49:16

lie awake at night and Think

49:18

I heard something I think that must

49:21

be an evil spirit if I see a dark shadow

49:23

in the corner of the room That's

49:25

an evil spirit. They're coming to me because

49:27

I'm psychic. So that was

49:29

terrifying I spent so many nights

49:31

where I hardly slept as a

49:34

child. How were you supposed to keep them at

49:36

bay? There was kind

49:38

of a thing. I was told to say

49:40

by the head psychic, which is you don't

49:42

belong here We were told that they're not

49:44

actually evil. They're just lost. They're

49:47

kind of between the realms or something So

49:50

you tell them that they don't belong

49:52

here They're no longer alive. They

49:54

need to go back to where they came from

49:56

you had to say very confidently

49:58

to and I thought I did say it

50:01

a few times because I was scared there was

50:03

an evil spirit in the room at night and

50:05

thinking I don't sound confident enough and that was

50:07

part of it. You had to say it strongly

50:09

and confidently, you must leave here, you don't belong

50:12

here, go back to where you came from. And

50:15

I thought I can't do that. I'm scared,

50:17

I'm a child, I'm shaking. I was like

50:19

go back to where you came from. I

50:22

was worried that I was not a

50:24

strong enough psychic to banish these evil

50:27

spirits. Yeah, so

50:29

tell me some more about how the

50:31

seances went. So

50:34

once I realised I could

50:36

just look into the ball and maybe

50:38

think I see something or tell

50:40

what I can see which might be just a shape

50:43

or a colour, they would jump on

50:45

this and say that's fantastic, that must mean this,

50:47

that must mean that. Everyone

50:49

was getting very excited and I was

50:51

pleased, my mother was proud. So

50:53

by the time we did that, maybe the

50:55

second seance and I was kind of knew

50:57

what I was doing now, I was running

51:00

with it, I realised they loved it if

51:02

I would glance into

51:04

the corner of the room and stare

51:07

just for a few seconds and they would all

51:09

turn and look and

51:12

they'd say you see something, you see something. I

51:14

didn't even have to say anything, I just had to give

51:16

the right look and they would all

51:19

look at the corner of the room, look back at me and

51:22

it was kind of fun. You're

51:25

giving everybody chills. Yeah, give

51:27

everybody the chills and create a bit

51:29

of drama. Yeah. One time

51:31

I remember like just stretching it a

51:33

little bit for fun, for dramatic effect,

51:37

it worked and I went home feeling really good and

51:39

so did they. Right,

51:42

yeah you're giving the people what they want, it's a

51:44

performance. That's what they want, you go to a

51:46

seance, you want someone to connect to spirits. Yeah. Give

51:49

the impression that I did, we're all

51:51

happy. So did you ever conjure up

51:53

the dead and serve as a medium between the

51:55

people in the beyond and the people in the

51:57

room? Look, I don't remember. ever

52:00

saying, okay, there's someone coming through

52:02

and it's your father or

52:04

something. I never went that far with

52:07

it. I think with my mother

52:09

I may have, but with other people, I

52:12

never went that far with it. When

52:14

you were looking into the corner, you

52:16

knew that that was a performance, right? You

52:19

were doing that consciously? Yes. And

52:22

so how old were you when you

52:24

started realizing that, you know, maybe

52:26

this is all just a bit of hogwash? Yes,

52:29

and there was no major

52:31

revelation where I said, this is all

52:33

rubbish. I was looking

52:35

for some logic, some system that worked

52:37

and had rules, I guess. And

52:40

then when I was a young teenager, I

52:43

remember writing an essay in my English

52:45

class about applying

52:48

reason to your life is kind

52:50

of cringy and embarrassing. But

52:52

as a young teenager, you think you've

52:55

discovered the secret of how to live

52:57

your life, not realizing there's a whole

53:00

canon of philosophy behind it. People have

53:02

already thought this before, you know, then

53:05

I'm thinking about the way I live my life. It

53:07

doesn't really make sense. If I

53:10

apply logic to the things that I do and

53:12

I believe it doesn't

53:14

work, you know, it's not logical. There

53:17

are so many other explanations for things

53:19

you experienced than saying it's dead

53:21

people coming back. So I didn't

53:25

let on and my family, whenever my family

53:28

would get together, there's always like,

53:30

oh, granny's been coming through. Meaning

53:33

my deceased grandmother would be have come

53:35

and visited one of the family or,

53:39

you know, how's your spirit guide going?

53:41

You know, there's always talk of it,

53:43

just casual talk about it. And I

53:45

would just ignore it. And

53:47

as I got older, I was getting

53:49

more and more cynical about it.

53:51

I thought this is really

53:54

not true. But I was not

53:56

taking a strong stance. I was just ignoring

53:58

it. And My. The

54:00

Mud his older sister. She.

54:02

Died and. She.

54:04

Was a very strong believer she's want

54:07

to believe in fairies as well as

54:09

everything else and my cousins her daughter's.

54:12

Said to me at the the

54:14

weight so. Do. You believe all that

54:16

stuff? And my mother

54:18

was what bit and i to move the said

54:21

do you believe it and i said. No.

54:24

The. My mother is just see the stairs

54:26

me and we didn't speak about it

54:29

afterwards but I thought us has. To

54:31

be honest, I'm grown up now and

54:33

I don't believe in any of it.

54:35

But. You were a psychic see this is

54:38

how could you know believe exactly And

54:40

I must have been quite a while

54:42

and see your mom. It

54:44

must have been of is like the term I told

54:46

her I'd drink coffee. See.

54:49

Was regarded me as they good saw see

54:51

so good she hasn't even drink tea or

54:53

coffee season be the golden child ends As

54:55

horrified that I will I confess I didn't

54:58

believe anymore, but yet we didn't speak of

55:00

it. It just like my cousins saying illegally

55:02

that more like ah no. And

55:04

then so did she continue to ask

55:06

you for psychic opinions about things after

55:09

that are. No. And Connors

55:11

as cited as I got older.

55:13

I was not. So. Invested in

55:15

it. I guess they also just maybe

55:17

stews. Well, she's old and now she's

55:19

not so close to the spirit world

55:21

anymore was a reality was I was

55:24

such a thing for myself. So.

55:26

As an adult, you've completely renounce

55:28

your psychic powers. As a true

55:30

ability, I can completely without saddam.

55:32

So whatever happened to your mom

55:34

and Dad. Ah look, my

55:36

dad died when I was a teenager. Ah,

55:40

my mom died just in two

55:42

thousand and nineteen. She was ninety

55:44

five. Olmert us. With actually

55:46

had the funeral service in my lounge

55:48

room knowing that my mother was not

55:50

at. You know it, traditional religion. Kind.

55:53

Of person was the oh I said when I

55:55

die is in do whenever you want with my

55:57

body to the casket Get all the kids to

55:59

do. Later it which is what we did, we got

56:01

it. Costs and there can be

56:04

painted on me. orgies, flowers so my

56:06

sister wrote on it don't haunts me.

56:08

Suffer. That's

56:11

funny. Yeah got five. Same system

56:13

is around for Christmas last year and she said.

56:16

His. Mom here. And.

56:18

I thought she means my mom's ashes.

56:20

yeah yeah yeah in the lounge room

56:22

she has yet she's been amount of

56:24

my size. Two of the ah a

56:27

case means the spirits and I'll let

56:29

us odyssey All this. Ignore that. Does.

56:32

Your sister and your other siblings

56:34

for that matter. Debates believe you

56:36

still have these psychic powers. Yeah,

56:38

they do. At least one sister particularly

56:41

did definitely. She's like, just accepts it

56:43

still is totally normal. Do

56:46

feel that you should dissuade her a bad or

56:48

have you tried? Are you just avoid the topic.

56:51

I just avoid the topics are would

56:53

be like destroying. Something that

56:55

is integral part. Of

56:57

the the family home, it's not doing

57:00

her any harm. To believe that our

57:02

mother is visiting her is probably comforting.

57:05

even though she's whether I started for. Offense.

57:10

And you just have to tell me

57:12

the story about your friend who works

57:14

for a national television station. Is this

57:16

yes though? as. An adult young adults.

57:19

I had a friend see she

57:21

was set of contact with a

57:23

local television station just to do

57:25

some hostess include roles and they

57:27

wanted to keep her on contract

57:29

so they said from morning show

57:31

you can be the astrologer. Knowing

57:33

full well she had no background

57:35

in astrology at all and they

57:37

didn't ask her where she was

57:39

gonna get to astrology effects from

57:41

just like you'll Be the Size

57:43

of the she would appear every

57:45

morning and say tourists. You're.

57:47

Gonna meet. You know it's

57:49

a tall, handsome stranger all. That the

57:52

classic things. She.

57:54

actually had a crush on one of

57:56

the other presenters is up football plas

57:58

says she knew what stuff he was,

58:00

he was Capricorn. So she'd

58:02

say, Capricorn, someone at your work

58:05

is your soul mate. You just need to find her.

58:09

Things like that. And she would be hanging out

58:11

the night before she'd say, oh, I've got to

58:13

do the astrology tomorrow. What can I say? And

58:17

I would tell her, oh, say this, say this. Ah,

58:19

yes, she'd write it down. People

58:21

would stop her in the street and say, you're the

58:23

astrologer. On TV, you

58:25

are the most accurate astrologer I

58:27

have ever known. She'd say, oh,

58:30

thank you very much. Thank you.

58:32

Yeah, it was total fabrication. And

58:34

you were the power behind the throne. Sometimes,

58:37

yeah. But it just goes to show you,

58:39

people hear what they want to hear and

58:41

they interpret it in the way that suits

58:44

them. It's human nature.

58:46

It's not evil. It's not stupid. It's just

58:48

the way humans are made. We want to

58:50

make connections. We want to

58:52

see order and patterns and

58:54

things that don't make sense to us. So

58:57

we create those things. It's kind

58:59

of logical, in a sense,

59:01

to make these strange

59:04

connections and give them meaning. But it's

59:06

not real. And

59:09

did your friend's astrological predictions

59:12

enable her to get together with her work crush?

59:15

Never worked. It didn't

59:17

work at all, no. And

59:20

so what's your relationship with, say, Santa Claus or

59:22

the Easter Bunny? Oh, I

59:25

love Santa Claus. I remember,

59:27

gee, I went to great lengths to

59:30

make Santa Claus real. As you know,

59:32

I'm in Australia. We have Christmas in

59:34

summer. But Santa Claus still had snow

59:36

on his feet when he came down

59:38

our chimney. It was actually just some

59:40

flowers in the kitchen. But yeah, the

59:42

kids, oh, wow, he's still got snow

59:44

on his boots, even though it's really

59:46

hot outside. I have three adult sons now.

59:48

And you might see him. I have

59:50

never conceded that Santa Claus is not

59:52

real. I still say, Christmas is

59:55

coming. Have you been a good boy? Oh,

59:57

yeah. Well, you better write a letter to

59:59

Santa Claus. let him know what

1:00:01

you've done. That's

1:00:03

great. This is such a

1:00:05

story. I love it. At the beginning of

1:00:07

the interview, I said that I might have some questions for you.

1:00:10

Sure. They were going to

1:00:12

be about my own fortunes, but since you

1:00:14

have dissuaded me of your abilities, I

1:00:17

will still try one or two questions on you anyway.

1:00:20

Okay, personal question. What is

1:00:22

my worst habit and how can I overcome

1:00:24

it? What is your worst habit?

1:00:26

You don't want to channel your psychic ability. Okay,

1:00:28

let me see. Your

1:00:31

worst habit. Yeah. Alright.

1:00:34

I'm channeling my psychic abilities. Your

1:00:36

worst habit is biting

1:00:39

off more than you can chew. Yes.

1:00:42

See? And you need to

1:00:44

start delegating, trusting other people enough to delegate.

1:00:47

That's amazing. How about that? That's

1:00:49

exactly right. You're exactly right. That's only 50 bucks.

1:00:51

Thank you very much. So

1:00:54

this is quite a secret. Why

1:01:01

did you want to tell it today? Yeah.

1:01:05

The older I get, the more I really

1:01:08

value truth. Also, I'm just

1:01:10

becoming more aware of how strange my

1:01:12

childhood was. As a

1:01:14

child, you accept it as normal. Everyone

1:01:16

has a spirit guide. Everyone goes astral

1:01:18

traveling. Everyone has seances. I

1:01:21

have to examine my life and what

1:01:24

my experiences are and what my truth

1:01:26

is now. I don't want to at

1:01:29

all be mean and say people are

1:01:31

stupid or people are pulling the

1:01:33

wool over someone's eyes. I

1:01:39

don't think it's that simple. It's more complex, but

1:01:42

I have to say what I've experienced. Well,

1:01:45

Vicki, you have taken us on quite a ride. I

1:01:48

just want to thank you for sharing your secret. It's

1:01:51

a pleasure. Vicki's

1:01:54

a devout skeptic now. How about you?

1:01:57

Have you seen things you can't explain? we

1:02:00

all have, and how we interpret

1:02:02

them is, as Vicky says, complicated. It's based

1:02:04

on our own set of life experiences. We

1:02:07

all decide for ourselves. See

1:02:09

pictures of the church, Little Vicky's home and

1:02:12

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join our Facebook discussion group. All are welcome.

1:02:22

Sarah from episode 207, Escape

1:02:24

from Gilly Tea, is back to address

1:02:26

all the buzz around her episode on

1:02:28

the next Secret Room Unlocked. She'll

1:02:30

respond directly to a number of social

1:02:32

media reactions and tell us about corrupt

1:02:35

cops and an orphanage she encountered on

1:02:37

her trip. And there's more to her

1:02:39

breakup with her ex back home too.

1:02:42

Is Sarah still traveling and living it up?

1:02:44

Join me, Susie Lark, in one week

1:02:46

for Unlocked, the premium version of

1:02:49

the podcast for all this and

1:02:51

more. It's available with a free

1:02:53

trial on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and

1:02:55

at patreon.com/secret room. If you've

1:02:58

got a secret you want to keep close at home, but you

1:03:00

want to share with the world, send

1:03:02

it to me at secret room pod.com. Just click

1:03:04

the share a secret button. And

1:03:06

next time I can hardly wait to share a

1:03:08

forbidden secret from a nurse who worked at a

1:03:10

psychiatric facility. She crossed ethical boundaries

1:03:12

when she fell in love with a patient. But

1:03:15

making it even more complicated, she's a mixed

1:03:17

race and he was a ranking official in

1:03:19

a white supremacist group facing

1:03:21

20 years in prison. That's

1:03:24

in two short weeks on the next episode of the

1:03:27

secret room production credits on

1:03:29

this episode of your favorite indie podcast that

1:03:31

could go to Susie Lark and Luna Patel.

1:03:33

Thanks also to break master cylinder for the

1:03:35

music. This is the secret room.

1:03:38

The podcast about the stories. No one ever

1:03:40

tells. I'm Ben Ann.