0:00

Hi Ben, my name is Jo and

0:02

my secret is how I came into

0:04

Six Figures in cold, hard cash to

0:07

pay off my house. No

0:09

one knows that I own my house free and

0:11

clear or how I

0:13

did it. Today

0:15

the Seeker Room

0:18

presents Power Dynamic.

0:28

I said what are you talking about?

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0:35

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1:25

Jo shares a story about a defining moment in her

1:27

life. She'll tell us about the events that led her

1:29

to a point where she had to make an ethical

1:31

decision that would have a profound impact on her life

1:33

and on her family. The decision she

1:36

made and how she feels about it today is

1:38

her secret. Hi

1:42

Jo and welcome to the Seeker Room. Hi,

1:44

Ben. Hi, it is great to have

1:46

you here. Thanks

1:48

so much. It's great to be here. You

1:51

are welcome. If I were to ask what do

1:53

an indecent proposal, a mortgage, and a Da Vinci

1:55

painting have in common, what would your answer be?

2:00

Me. Okay, great. You

2:02

and your secret, right? Correct.

2:06

Okay, great. Well, I am

2:08

just so intrigued. And

2:10

as I recall from our conversations leading up to this

2:13

interview, you told me that

2:15

you were the youngest of three with two

2:17

wonderful older brothers, right? Yes.

2:20

I grew up in Rhode Island and I

2:22

was the youngest child. My

2:26

middle brother is two years older than me

2:28

and my next brother is two years older

2:31

than him. And

2:34

we were middle class, two

2:36

parents, a dog.

2:39

I played Little League. I was

2:41

a little unconventional. I wanted to

2:43

do all the things that my brothers

2:45

did. And so I grew

2:47

up in the 70s and that

2:50

was not really the norm.

2:52

And so I wanted to be an altar

2:54

boy because they were altar boys and I

2:56

wasn't allowed to do that. I

2:59

wanted to play Little League. I

3:01

wasn't supposed to do that but they let me on. So

3:04

I basically just trailed around in my

3:06

brother's footsteps and wanted to be just

3:08

like them. They were wonderful role models

3:10

for me. That's

3:12

awesome. Tell me about your dad when you were

3:14

growing up. My dad was

3:17

a quiet,

3:20

small man. He

3:22

was what I would call a functional

3:24

alcoholic. He worked

3:26

at a pen company, local pen

3:28

company and he was kind of your

3:30

traditional nine to five working

3:33

dad. Came home at 5.30 or

3:35

6. My

3:38

mom would hold dinner for him. You know, we

3:40

would sit down as a family and eat dinner

3:42

and the kids would talk a lot. My

3:45

mom would ask questions and my dad just kind of

3:47

sat at the table. Very

3:49

quiet and introverted and not very

3:53

emotionally connected. How

3:55

about your mom? My mom was

3:57

very emotional and I would...

4:00

say maybe not totally emotionally

4:02

connected but my

4:04

experience was that like my mom

4:06

was always home, she didn't work

4:08

and she was always like a

4:11

quote-unquote stay-at-home mom. My dad,

4:14

my dad passed away. I

4:17

struggle with my thoughts

4:19

about him and my towards him.

4:21

So I try to like think the

4:23

best of him and speak well of him. So

4:26

how did that unsatisfying relationship with

4:28

your dad impact you? I

4:31

looked for other people to

4:33

fill that role and

4:36

tended to foster

4:39

relationships with older men who were

4:42

like mentors or basically a surrogate

4:44

father. I was kind of always

4:46

on the lookout for a surrogate

4:48

father. So my soccer

4:50

coach became a surrogate father,

4:53

my little league coach.

4:56

At one point I worked on a

4:58

farm and the farmer, he was my

5:02

surrogate father. Yeah, I was just

5:05

looking around, I was looking for

5:08

love in all the wrong places.

5:10

I also sought out romantically partners

5:13

who were not great at communicating

5:15

and had issues with drinking and

5:19

so I ended up marrying somebody

5:21

who was very much like my

5:23

father. Yeah, who was a

5:26

functional alcoholic and

5:28

extremely emotionally disconnected.

5:33

Did it take long for you to realize that

5:36

maybe this wasn't the right fit for you? No,

5:40

no, I realized that before

5:43

we were married actually.

5:46

Yeah, so another little piece

5:48

of this story which is

5:51

also a secret. No,

5:54

so I realized

5:57

that my current boyfriend who

5:59

then became my husband was a

6:01

terrible match for me and I

6:03

moved out and broke up with

6:05

him and I moved into

6:09

a house with some people I did not

6:11

even know and I felt like I had

6:13

dodged a bullet and

6:17

I found out about three

6:19

weeks later that I was pregnant.

6:24

And yeah, so

6:27

that's another actual, another secret that

6:29

I hadn't even thought of about

6:31

this story. Yeah, so I was pregnant

6:33

with somebody that I didn't want

6:35

to be in a relationship with. Right. Mm-hmm.

6:38

Are you still in touch with the father then? Oh

6:42

yeah, we had three children together. We

6:44

ended up reconciling to raise

6:47

our first child and then

6:50

he wanted to get married and I

6:52

wanted to have more kids,

6:54

I wanted to have a sibling for my son,

6:56

so I basically forced him to have

6:59

another child. He didn't

7:01

really want any of that. To

7:04

begin with, I mean to begin with, he was

7:07

actually when my son was born

7:09

quite enchanted and my son was

7:11

an amazing and still is an

7:14

amazing person and sort of like

7:16

I think cast a little magic spell

7:19

on the whole thing and

7:22

so I was like, look

7:24

at this one. We

7:26

definitely genetically make wonderful

7:29

humans. I know that. So

7:31

yeah, so I guess I was like, we need

7:33

to have another one and he

7:36

was willing enough, you

7:39

know, he was willing enough and

7:42

I got pregnant with twins.

7:45

Wow. Yeah,

7:48

so we had three

7:50

children all under three years

7:52

of age. Goodness. Okay,

7:54

great. Yeah, shortly thereafter I

7:58

realized that I was a single. mom

8:00

with three kids under three in

8:02

the middle of nowhere in Vermont

8:04

and this guy was actually not

8:06

gonna really help a ton yet

8:09

didn't work out. So you left the

8:11

marriage? Correct. I left the

8:13

marriage, I moved back home

8:15

to be close to my family. So

8:18

I went to school and got

8:20

my license and became a massage

8:22

therapist. Well fantastic. Tell

8:25

me about your work as a massage therapist. I

8:29

worked with another massage therapist

8:31

who had an established base

8:35

of clients and she would

8:37

refer her clients to me. I

8:39

would work on commission for her and

8:43

I started out doing that pretty

8:47

quickly after school and

8:49

did that for quite a number of years with her. She

8:52

refers clients to you because she's got too many.

8:55

Correct. She had an extra room

8:57

in her office and so I

8:59

would come in and I would work in

9:02

the same space as her but in my own room. She

9:04

would take, I can't

9:07

remember what it was, 40% and I would keep 60 and anytime she

9:09

couldn't take

9:14

a client she would say, hey can you come in

9:16

and work, you know, and I would always say yes

9:18

if it was during school. That's great.

9:21

Okay. So you've got a professional

9:23

job, you've got kids. What's

9:27

the next step in your development? So

9:30

I'm renting a house and we

9:32

are living in a really great

9:34

little town that has a great

9:36

school system and then my landlord

9:39

decides to sell my house. And

9:42

so yeah, I start

9:44

looking for another house to rent.

9:47

There was nothing really

9:49

appealing or within my price range

9:51

and so I started looking at homes and

9:53

thought I was ready to

9:55

buy a home for my kids and myself.

9:58

Oh that's great. Yeah, you've got your family. family,

10:00

you're professionally employed and when I

10:02

get a house. Yeah.

10:05

It was really challenging to find a

10:07

house in my price range to start out

10:09

with but I did find

10:11

this wonderful little house that was in

10:13

my price range and I just

10:17

knew it was where I wanted to raise my kids

10:20

and I had savings from

10:22

my divorce settlement and I

10:24

had an income. I

10:26

had only been working for less than a year

10:28

though so I didn't know much about

10:31

the financial part of that but I went to

10:33

a mortgage broker and I

10:35

found out that I couldn't qualify for a

10:37

mortgage and I was pretty

10:39

devastated. That did not dash

10:41

your dreams of home ownership. Not even

10:43

close. Yeah. Yeah, no.

10:46

I didn't do much work. That's not going to keep

10:48

Joe down. Heck no. So what

10:51

did you do? I was

10:53

told that I didn't qualify and I

10:55

wanted to know how I could qualify

10:57

so my mortgage broker told

10:59

me that I needed to get someone

11:01

to cosign on my loan and I knew

11:04

without a doubt that

11:06

I was a great investment and

11:09

knew for sure that I

11:13

could get somebody from my family to cosign

11:15

on my loan. Okay. So you've

11:17

got mom and dad. Yeah. Who

11:19

did you go to first? Oh, well I only went

11:21

to my mom. Yeah, no.

11:24

I was never going to go ask my dad. I just

11:26

went to my mom. I said

11:28

mom here's you know the situation. She

11:31

actually agreed that she was

11:33

willing to cosign. Yep. Great.

11:36

Yeah. So we went

11:38

to the mortgage broker. We were going

11:40

to sign the papers and my mom started

11:42

acting very strangely and asking lots of

11:44

questions and becoming very defensive while we

11:47

were sitting there with our mortgage broker,

11:49

my mortgage broker. A

11:51

lovely guy who I just am still friends with to

11:53

this day. I looked across the table at my mom

11:55

and I said are you going

11:57

to back out on signing this cosigning?

12:00

Wow. Right there at the bank. Right

12:03

there at the table. Uh-huh. Yep. Okay.

12:06

And she said that I had pressured her into

12:09

cosigning and she was very uncomfortable and so

12:11

that did not pan out well. Yeah.

12:15

Okay. So. Yeah. Then

12:17

I got a call from my dad late at

12:20

night offering to cosign on my mortgage out of

12:22

the blue. I hadn't asked him. Yeah.

12:25

It was incredible. I was so excited and

12:27

he was crying. We can't imagine you not

12:29

having a place to live. We're

12:32

so happy you found this house for the kids and

12:34

I was just over the moon. Yeah.

12:36

So my dad agreed to cosign on the loan. Oh,

12:38

fantastic. Yeah. But we

12:41

know that your father is living in a crummy apartment and not, maybe

12:44

not all that well off. I don't know. Um,

12:46

how did that go? Oh, yeah. Well,

12:49

I called him back the next day. Uh-huh. And,

12:52

um, he was drunk when

12:54

he had made that offer. Oh, he

12:56

didn't even remember. I don't

12:58

know if he didn't remember or, you

13:01

know, it just, it wasn't, the offer was

13:03

no longer on the table. I see. It

13:06

was no longer, he didn't say, he did not say I

13:08

was drunk when I, but he, he was like, yeah,

13:10

we're not comfortable with this anymore. Gosh.

13:13

You know, I hadn't asked and, uh,

13:15

they made an offer then they became

13:17

uncomfortable with it. So they

13:19

weren't going to cosign. Wow, Jo. So you've

13:21

got both parents who stepped up but then pulled

13:24

back. Yeah. Yeah. And

13:26

then he was a little bit like an orphan. Disappointing. My

13:29

dreams were pretty much

13:31

dashed. My mortgage broker was

13:34

like, I've never heard anything like this

13:36

in my life. He felt so bad

13:38

for me and he said, you

13:41

got to kill the deal. You, you got to kill

13:43

the deal. I was ready

13:45

to kill the deal and

13:47

then I got a phone call. Oh,

13:49

somebody else is going to step up to the plate. Yeah.

13:54

Somebody that I never asked that was a

13:56

friend who knew my story and knew what

13:58

was happening called me and

14:00

said, I want

14:02

a cosign on the mortgage and, you

14:05

know, I've been waiting for you to ask but obviously

14:07

you're never going to ask me. So let

14:11

me do it. Who pray tell

14:13

was this? This

14:16

was a local pastor who

14:19

became a friend who was perhaps

14:21

my surrogate mother. Okay.

14:24

Yeah, a lovely person. Boy, I'll say.

14:27

Yeah. I'm afraid to ask but

14:29

how did it go? I

14:32

can just see this going awry again. No,

14:36

Ben, it turned out fantastic but in the

14:38

middle of it, she was going

14:40

to cosign and we went to the bank and

14:43

she was also informed that she

14:45

was not eligible to be the

14:47

cosigner because she also didn't have...

14:49

See, I knew it. She

14:52

didn't have the credible paperwork because she

14:55

was an interim pastor. So

14:58

basically, I didn't realize this about her.

15:00

She's in her 70s and a

15:03

very demure and respectable pastor,

15:05

you know? And

15:07

so I, driving back, was

15:10

crying. I was like, we're done. We're

15:12

done. I give up.

15:15

Turns out that she was also just a

15:17

badass. She was a badass

15:19

and she said, fuck the man. This

15:23

is not going to happen on my

15:25

watch. That's fucking

15:27

ridiculous. She was pissed.

15:29

She was pissed. She was like,

15:31

this is the biggest bullshit I've ever heard.

15:34

This is the kind of thing that

15:36

sinks women. I'm not going to sit by

15:38

and let this happen. Oh, right. Yeah.

15:41

So what did she do? She blew my

15:43

mind. She blew my mind. She took out

15:46

a home equity loan on her own house

15:48

and gave me a private freaking mortgage.

15:51

Yeah. Goodness gracious. I

15:53

mean... She saved my life. What am I

15:55

saying? Maybe very overly generous. You

15:57

must have had a very close relationship. I mean,

15:59

she, yeah, I

16:01

would say that she and I are very

16:04

similar though. I am the same kind of

16:06

person. So when she did that for me,

16:08

I, you know, I couldn't believe it. No

16:12

one has ever done anything like that, you

16:14

know, for me and nor should, nor would I expect them

16:18

to. And also I'm the kind of person

16:20

who does that kind of thing. So

16:22

it was actually just a spectacular thing. Yeah.

16:27

It was amazing. You put stuff out into

16:29

the universe and it comes back. Well,

16:32

that's awesome. It was wonderful. So you were

16:34

able to get a mortgage on your dream house? Yeah,

16:39

yeah. And

16:43

you're making payments to the bank of interim

16:45

pastor? Yes. And

16:48

it was so lovely. Yeah. My

16:51

kids have the house to live in.

16:53

They go to a good school and

16:56

we're safe. And yeah,

16:58

I was so happy. So Joe,

17:00

so you got your mortgage and

17:03

I believe that this is the point in

17:05

your story where the man

17:08

that is central to your secret enters.

17:12

Am I right? Yeah, you are right. I'm

17:14

so sorry. It took so long to get

17:17

here. Yeah, that's good.

17:19

I mean, I, I can

17:21

hardly wait. So all right. So

17:23

you've got this mortgage and

17:26

tell me about, about this man.

17:31

Joe's story is about to ramp up as two sets

17:33

of power dynamics are set to come head to head

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travel.com/secret. Check the

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show notes for all those details. And

19:34

we're back with Joe's secret. And

19:38

tell me about about this man.

19:41

Yeah so I was working

19:43

still for the massage therapist

19:45

and she sent in this client and

19:48

his name was Bill and he was

19:50

about mid 70s. He was interesting,

19:53

intelligent, but you know I'm a massage

19:55

therapist. I'm there to work on his

19:57

muscles so he was a tennis player.

20:00

So, you know, I did my job, worked on

20:02

him. Sometimes

20:04

in my job, people talk a

20:06

lot when they're in the room and I

20:09

sort of encourage them to focus on just relaxing

20:11

but sometimes that's something that they really want to

20:13

do. So, he spent a lot of time chatting

20:16

about his life and

20:19

he was an extremely interesting person.

20:22

He was an art dealer, an art

20:25

collector and a

20:28

very, very charismatic person who just

20:30

had lots of really interesting stories

20:32

and he just chatted away,

20:34

chatted, chatted, chatted while I worked

20:37

on his muscles and yeah, he

20:39

came in every week. I really enjoyed

20:41

working on him. I really came to

20:43

appreciate him and look forward to having

20:45

him come in. You know, I respond

20:47

to him for sure. What did you learn about

20:49

his life? Well, he

20:52

was super interesting, you know, and there were some

20:54

weird things about him as well. There

20:56

were some creepy things, a little creepy. He had, he was

20:58

married which I felt very comfortable. That

21:01

made me feel comfortable and

21:03

yet he had a mistress. Hmm.

21:07

Yeah, and that is weird. Mm-hmm. Certainly

21:10

weird that he would tell you. Oh

21:12

yeah and it was also a weird relationship

21:14

with the mistress if you're going to have

21:16

a relationship with a mistress. I

21:18

don't know, I might expect it to be

21:20

a pleasant relationship. It was a very contentious

21:22

relationship with the mistress and he

21:25

would talk about it and his

21:27

wife sounded actually like a lovely

21:29

person but at some

21:32

point he ended the relationship with

21:34

the mistress. I don't know but... Okay, a lot

21:36

of drama. He was always talking about art. Yeah, he

21:39

would, she was in New York City. He would

21:41

go down there by art. They

21:43

would have these, you know, there's a

21:45

lot of drama, lots of stuff about art. Yeah,

21:48

at some point he invited

21:50

me to come

21:53

out to his house and look at his

21:55

art. Okay.

21:59

So... That's interesting. So is

22:02

this, how

22:04

normal is it for you as a

22:07

massage therapist to, you know,

22:09

form friendships with your clients and go

22:12

over their house or whatever? Yeah,

22:15

that's a good question. Yeah.

22:17

Yeah, no. This is the part about it

22:19

that I'm uncomfortable with is that there's, I

22:22

was new, I was very, very new to

22:24

massage. It was probably my first two years

22:26

working, but I was also fresh out

22:28

of school and I had taken

22:30

classes in ethics and I

22:32

was very clear on the understanding that

22:35

there was a difference between a client and a

22:37

friend. I didn't think that was

22:39

something that I was supposed to do. It's not

22:42

something that's like illegal for me to do.

22:44

It's just not within what

22:46

I was taught. Yeah, it's an

22:48

ethical boundary. Yeah, and I'm a real

22:50

follower. I like to follow rules.

22:53

So I wasn't really comfortable with

22:55

it although I was, I really

22:57

wanted to go and see

22:59

this incredible art. He

23:01

had artwork by

23:04

Georgia O'Keeffe and Man

23:06

Ray and all these

23:08

other people. I don't remember all the names, but

23:11

I was really tempted. I really wanted to.

23:14

I was also extremely isolated taking care of

23:16

my kids and working all the time and

23:18

so I asked my

23:20

colleague who had been doing

23:23

massage for 27 years what she

23:25

thought to see if there

23:27

any way I could justify

23:31

going to look at that art and

23:35

she said, oh yeah, you should totally

23:38

go. You should totally go check back.

23:40

I know, I know, I know,

23:43

not good. Right. I

23:46

know. And the

23:48

art was at his house. Yep.

23:51

And you went. I

23:55

did. Was his wife there? Well,

23:57

I thought she would be there. She was

23:59

not there. So

24:02

tell me about the evening. Okay,

24:04

first it wasn't the evening, it was the middle

24:06

of the day. All right. That's

24:08

better. Yeah, no, it

24:11

was the middle of the day. I

24:13

did think, you know, I'm going to look

24:15

at a beautiful art collection. So I did

24:18

put on like a nice dress and

24:20

thought I should look proper. I'm

24:23

obsessed with Georgia O'Keefe. I've been to have

24:25

a queue several times. Yeah.

24:28

And Georgia O'Keefe lived and she was

24:30

truly inspired by the landscape. I'm

24:33

from New Mexico myself, so I've been there for sure

24:35

too. I

24:38

am obsessed with her. So anyway,

24:40

I put on my dress to go see

24:42

this Georgia O'Keefe painting. I had been to

24:44

Santa Fe to have the museum there also.

24:46

Off the Old Town Plaza. It's a

24:49

remarkable exhibit. Yeah, I've never been tempted

24:51

to steal in my life, but I

24:53

legitimately was like I would

24:56

risk it all to steal one of these

24:58

little tiny little ones. Don't

25:02

tell me that's your secret though. You did not steal

25:04

one of these. I did not. Okay, good. I

25:07

know. I was getting nervous. I know. I

25:10

went and I saw this painting and

25:12

I saw all this other artwork.

25:14

It was incredible. It was wonderful. We talked, I

25:16

don't know, we might have had tea. It

25:19

seemed very, very appropriate.

25:22

You know, I knew it was unusual. But

25:24

at the time, I truly felt like, oh,

25:27

this is the kind of situation that

25:30

your ethics class does not prepare you

25:32

for where, you know, you

25:34

will meet somebody who has a common

25:36

interest and they will share this thing

25:38

with you and it's okay. It was

25:41

wonderful and it didn't actually interfere

25:43

with anything. He

25:45

continued to come in for his weekly appointments

25:47

and everything was the same after that. There

25:49

was nothing strange or untoward

25:51

in that visit. I felt very innocent.

25:54

So, you had a good time.

25:56

You talked about Georgia O'Keeffe. You

25:58

enjoyed some tea. Mm-hmm. continued

26:00

to come for his appointments. Yeah.

26:03

He had a good rapport. Okay, great. I

26:05

mean, it was incredible. Yeah. I

26:08

mean, aside from the ethical question of just forming

26:10

a friendship with a client, I think it's

26:13

great to have friends, friends that you

26:15

share common interests with. If

26:17

it is a little unconventional, so what? Right?

26:20

That's fine if it works. Yeah. And I

26:22

would say in retrospect as well that,

26:24

you know, in my experience at that time,

26:26

I really had very little

26:29

else than work and my children. And

26:31

so, you know, I think I was

26:33

a little lonely and it was

26:36

nice to meet a new friend.

26:38

Yeah. And a surrogate father

26:41

figure, I guess, in retrospect. Right.

26:44

Yes, indeed. Yeah. Yeah. So

26:47

you had good rapport with Bill, but then I recall from our discussions leading

26:49

to the interview at this point, you decide to

26:51

open your own practice, right? I

26:53

did. I left the place

26:55

I was working and opened up my

26:57

own space. I actually had

26:59

extra space in the house that

27:02

I was able to purchase and

27:04

it was a separate space. And so

27:07

it made sense. I opened up my

27:09

practice in my house. Yeah,

27:11

it was great. So did he keep coming to see you

27:13

at your practice? I wasn't supposed

27:16

to take clients with me. My employer

27:18

asked me not to poach people

27:20

and I totally respected that. So when

27:23

I left, I just said, I'm leaving and

27:25

I didn't take anybody with me except for

27:28

Bill said, I want to

27:30

keep coming to you. And

27:33

I relented. I don't even know how hard he

27:35

had to press me to be honest. I mean,

27:37

I adored this guy. I just didn't think it

27:39

was really a slight to

27:41

her to take

27:43

this one client who, yeah,

27:46

I mean, he was my client by that time. And

27:48

so, yeah, he was the one person I took. I didn't take

27:50

anyone else with me. How did she feel about

27:53

it? Did she have any type of feelings that

27:55

Bill would give? I

27:58

don't know because I. I didn't

28:00

let her know that. Okay. So,

28:02

but she probably noticed that he wasn't coming

28:04

around to her practice anymore. So, she might

28:07

have figured it out. Well, she's very

28:09

busy and she hadn't seen him in several

28:11

years. So, I don't think she actually knew at

28:13

all. Like honestly, I don't think she missed him

28:16

or anything. I just, I did not say

28:18

that he was still with

28:20

me. Okay. So, all's good

28:22

in that respect. Yeah.

28:24

She probably just thought he found some,

28:26

maybe he started going to massage envy

28:28

or something. Right.

28:32

So, you're off with your own business now,

28:34

which is great. Look at you. Yeah. You're

28:37

building up a new client base and

28:39

Bill's customer number one. Yeah.

28:42

And I'm working from home, so I don't have

28:45

to commute. You know, it's just, it

28:47

was wonderful. And Bill

28:49

was a regular and you know,

28:51

things continued on as they had with

28:55

him sharing all of his crazy stories.

28:58

And he started to ask me a

29:00

little more about myself when

29:03

we moved to this new location at

29:05

my house. I think

29:07

that probably changed things a little bit. How

29:10

did that change things? I didn't

29:12

realize it at the time, but

29:14

I think that coming into like

29:16

a residential neighborhood where I lived,

29:18

it's a separate entrance and it's

29:20

a completely separate

29:22

setup from my own home. But

29:25

I think it broke down a little bit the

29:27

boundary of I'm

29:29

just your practitioner and

29:32

now I'm a real person. This is where

29:34

I live with my kids. And

29:37

he became more

29:40

interested in asking questions

29:42

about me and finding out about my

29:44

situation here in this little house that

29:46

he would come to once a week.

29:49

Yeah. Okay. I

29:51

didn't realize it, but looking back, I do. Okay. So at

29:53

the time it didn't feel inappropriate because this

29:55

is somebody that had shared a great deal

29:57

with you, your friends on. on

30:00

some level and so you

30:02

know, that's what friends do, they share. Yeah,

30:06

I mean more so, less like we're friends

30:08

and I share with him as a friend but

30:10

like a lot of times a client will ask,

30:13

will talk about things, they'll ask me about myself

30:15

and I'll say yes, I have three

30:17

kids. I

30:19

definitely opened up more to him and

30:22

I think that was my weakness

30:24

in terms of me being more

30:26

vulnerable because of some of

30:29

the things we spoke about earlier that I

30:31

don't normally share with clients because I

30:33

think I had blurred the lines. I

30:35

kind of thought of him as a father figure, I

30:38

did and I've thought that

30:40

before in other circumstances that

30:42

was completely not only

30:44

harmless but kind of nice, you know,

30:46

for both parties but in this situation,

30:49

totally different because you

30:51

know, he was a client. Mm-hmm,

30:53

yeah. What kinds of things did

30:56

you share with him about yourself? My

30:59

husband didn't pay the child

31:01

support, you know, he would ask

31:03

me about my ex-husband, how was that

31:05

and I would, you know, it's

31:07

not great, it's not great.

31:10

Okay. So he must pay you

31:12

a lot in child support, you know, blah blah,

31:15

you know, no, no, he

31:17

doesn't pay, no, you know,

31:19

so over time, it was like my husband

31:22

doesn't contribute financially, he lives up in,

31:25

he lives in Vermont where we used to live,

31:27

far away, so I'm kind of on my own,

31:30

my kids go up there quite often but you

31:33

know, how about your family, oh,

31:35

I've got two great brothers, how

31:37

about your parents, oh, my dad

31:39

lives nearby but he's kind

31:41

of a drunk, my

31:43

mom, she's wonderful. Right. You

31:46

know. Did your dating life come up?

31:49

Well, yeah, he wanted to know a lot about

31:51

my dating life. Mm-hmm. So

31:53

I would just be like I'm having a

31:55

nice time, I would, I didn't

31:58

really date a lot, I would go out and date a lot. go

32:00

dancing and stuff when my kids were with their

32:02

dad but I didn't really have time

32:04

for a relationship so you know

32:06

I'd be like yeah I'm going out I'm having fun. I had a dance

32:11

partner that I would my kids would go

32:13

to Vermont and I would be like hey let's go out and

32:15

go dancing and you know share

32:18

stuff like that. I think he was kind

32:20

of now in retrospect I think I think

32:22

it was titillating I think he kind of

32:25

was getting a little I was

32:29

probably 40 and he was in his

32:31

late 70s or mid 70s. Yeah I

32:33

think that he was kind of more

32:35

interested in like what's this single

32:37

young woman doing I didn't even think of it that

32:39

way at all I didn't think of it that I

32:42

was like I'm a dried up housefrow.

32:47

I mean I

32:49

really I didn't it just didn't even cross my

32:51

mind Ben like it really didn't cross my mind

32:53

that this guy was somehow getting

32:55

some romantic vibe. I

32:58

just it just didn't even it like

33:00

legitimately I couldn't

33:02

even express how on unreciprocated

33:06

it was and also how in

33:09

general at that at that particular time you

33:12

know with three children

33:15

under the age of 11 like

33:17

how am I even going to

33:19

imagine that some guy's gonna be like wow

33:21

she's super hot you know like that was

33:24

like you know I'm just toiling away trying to do

33:26

the best I can to survive. And so I

33:28

imagine he continues to share also he's

33:30

talking about his art deals his wife

33:32

has he reconciled with his mistress? Nope

33:35

the mistress I look back and forth

33:37

on and off and oh

33:40

yeah he's got a big art deal in

33:43

the making. Okay

33:45

tell me about that. Oh

33:47

it's big it's every week this

33:49

big da Vinci painting so okay

33:52

I'll be totally honest I truly

33:54

didn't really believe I

33:57

honestly really didn't think there was a da

33:59

Vinci I don't really know

34:01

whether what he's telling me is true or not. Like

34:04

I don't know if he has a mistress in New

34:06

York City. You know what I mean? He tells me

34:08

stories and he said he

34:10

met Helga. I don't know if any of this

34:12

is really true. So yeah, but he's

34:14

got a da Vinci painting that

34:16

he's going to sell for

34:18

millions of dollars. Really? Had

34:21

you seen the painting? No.

34:24

Okay. Nope. Never

34:26

saw the painting. Okay. But

34:28

you know, Ben, people come in and they say

34:30

a lot of different things. It's

34:33

not my job or my business to question

34:36

what anybody is saying. I'm really, honestly, I'm

34:38

very focused on what I'm doing. I got

34:40

a lot of things to focus on that

34:42

don't have to do with the stories

34:45

that are coming out of the person. So

34:47

I'm trying to work

34:49

on the hamstring and

34:52

you know. Stories about

34:54

da Vinci paintings are secondary. Yeah,

34:57

I'm digging in. You know, I'm

34:59

digging into the traps and

35:01

trying to make sure that I'm loosening

35:03

things up and not hurting people. You

35:05

know, and he's telling me stories about

35:07

the da Vinci. And so it's this

35:09

million dollar deal. Every

35:12

week he comes back and he talks about it. And I

35:14

uh-huh, uh-huh. And I just keep on working

35:17

and he keeps on telling me about this

35:19

painting. Okay. Very exciting for him.

35:21

All right. You know, were there

35:23

any other warning signs? Okay. So

35:26

another time he asked me to come over and play tennis. That

35:29

was another thing I did. Okay. How

35:32

was his game? He's good. Okay.

35:36

He's a really good tennis player. He kicked my butt. I

35:38

was back when I worked for the other massage therapist.

35:40

I asked her, she said, go play tennis. Go have

35:42

fun. I need to take

35:44

responsibility for my own actions. I

35:47

asked her permission and that is just ridiculous. I'm

35:50

a grown woman. Right. So

35:52

I can't blame her but that was my thinking. Oh,

35:55

she said it's okay. I'll go do it. So

35:58

nothing on towards happened then. And

36:00

then it was my dad's 80th

36:02

birthday and he asked

36:05

me, oh, you know, what are you

36:07

going to get for your dad for

36:09

his birthday? And I said, like, I

36:11

don't know, probably nothing. I mean, whatever.

36:13

I don't really have a relationship with

36:15

my dad that is that important. I'll,

36:17

I don't know, a gift certificate or

36:19

something. And

36:21

so he showed up the next

36:23

week with a bottle of whiskey.

36:27

You know, I can't even, I don't even know how much it costs. I think

36:29

I had, I thought it was something like $800, but I

36:31

say that because I don't want

36:34

to exaggerate, but I think it was like $1,200

36:36

or more. It was

36:39

a crazy expensive bottle of

36:41

whiskey that he wanted me to give to

36:43

my dad. Okay. Hold

36:45

on. Wait a minute. He knows

36:47

your father is an alcoholic,

36:49

right? Uh-huh.

36:53

And he's suggesting you give your

36:55

father for his birthday. Uh-huh. And

36:58

he's saying, like, $100 bottle of whiskey. Exactly. Yeah,

37:00

it was weird. And it was... And

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for you. And

38:55

we're back as Joe considers Bill's $1200 bottle of

38:57

whiskey offer. It's

39:01

creepy actually. Oh, that's not right.

39:03

No, and I will say the other thing

39:05

he talked about a lot was every

39:07

night he always would go home and have martinis.

39:09

Yeah. He liked to talk about

39:12

drinking quite a bit. So I

39:14

said, I don't want to give a bottle of whiskey

39:16

to my alcoholic father. No thank you.

39:18

Yeah. Exactly. How did

39:20

he justify it? Yeah.

39:23

So he said, you know,

39:26

this is your opportunity to

39:28

show your dad that

39:30

you made it and stop bugging

39:33

him about his drinking and just give

39:35

him this really expensive bottle of whiskey

39:37

and he'll be blown away. He'll be

39:40

impressed. And also honestly, I think I'm

39:42

pretty sure I had told him that

39:44

my dad had done that with the

39:46

mortgage situation. It was like, this

39:48

is a big fuck you to your dad. Wow.

39:51

And it was really strange. And I said, I don't

39:54

know. I'm not giving my dad a 12. This

39:56

makes no sense either. Like how does this make

39:58

any sense? the kid has been bugging

40:01

him to stop drinking my entire life. Okay,

40:03

well I'm curious to know what your ultimate

40:05

decision was. What happened? Well,

40:07

what do you think? I think you said no. Ben.

40:12

Yeah? I mean, am I right? I

40:16

brought my dad the bottle of whiskey. Hold

40:19

on, you gave it to your dad. Here,

40:22

this is twisted shit. I

40:25

mean... I mean, that sounds like a

40:27

really poor decision. I can't... Supplying an

40:29

addict can be dangerous. Yeah, it's really

40:31

messed up. I had a conversation with my

40:34

dad. My dad probably said something that upset

40:36

me. And I was like, you know

40:38

what? Fuck this whole thing. Fuck

40:41

this guy. If he wants to be this way,

40:43

I'll bring him this bottle of whiskey. He can

40:45

kill himself with it. It was a messed up

40:47

situation. I brought him the $1,200 bottle of whiskey

40:49

for his birthday. I

40:53

hate to say it, but neither of you or Bill are looking too good

40:55

at this moment. Yeah,

40:58

yeah. I

41:01

know. So

41:03

twisted. There's a lot that I'm unpacking with my

41:05

therapist. Let me just tell you that. Okay,

41:08

so there's another layer that I see

41:10

here, Joe. And that is that... Oh,

41:12

shit. Yeah. And I'm sure... Oh, no.

41:14

I'm sure this is 100% evident to

41:17

you, but I'm gonna say it. Okay.

41:19

So in addition, this

41:21

gift comes with a certain... I

41:23

mean, now you're gonna feel indebted to him.

41:26

Because he's given you this really expensive gift, right?

41:30

Oh, actually, Ben... I

41:34

didn't. I didn't. I honestly didn't because...

41:36

Really? Yeah, no. I don't... You don't feel like the

41:38

next time he asks you out, gee, this guy gave me a $1,200 bottle

41:40

of whiskey. I

41:42

kind of gotta go out. No. No. No,

41:46

it's so interesting. I honestly... Okay.

41:48

This is the kind of wealth that

41:51

he had and that I think a

41:53

lot of people that have ignored it

41:55

and thought, well, for him, it was

41:58

nothing. He just probably grabbed it. from

42:00

his cellar. To me,

42:02

it was insane and to him, I think

42:04

it was like the change

42:07

jar at the front of my door

42:09

where I dump my extra change. Like,

42:12

honestly, nope. I didn't feel

42:14

indebted at all and I was like, Bill,

42:16

I don't want this. This is ridiculous. It

42:18

didn't feel at all like a debt. Nope.

42:22

Okay. Weird, I know. Take your word

42:24

for it. Although it should have. Yeah,

42:26

well, maybe. I mean, I don't know. I

42:29

don't know that it should have, but I'm glad that

42:31

it didn't. Nope. So,

42:34

your friendship continues to develop a little

42:36

bit, you know. I mean, you're

42:38

having these conversations. He's giving you $1200 bottles

42:41

of whiskey. How did that present go

42:43

over with your dad? I

42:45

don't know. I mean, it's weird.

42:48

We met at a coffee shop and I gave

42:50

it to him at the coffee. We don't have

42:52

a really great relationship and so it was

42:54

awkward and weird as it would have been

42:56

and it fell flat as

42:59

it should have and it felt empty and

43:01

weird and I felt like I

43:03

had given him like a sweater that someone

43:06

gave me that I didn't want. That's

43:08

how that present felt. It just

43:10

felt awful and weird and

43:12

my dad's not a very emotionally connected

43:15

person so it's not like he was like, wait, you've

43:18

been trying to get me to quit drinking what's this about? You

43:20

know what I mean? That would have been a different dad. Right.

43:23

Okay. It was like,

43:25

okay. It's not the home run that

43:27

Bill expected. Oh, God, no. No. Okay.

43:31

No. So, there's more

43:33

to this story. So, Bill continues to come in for

43:36

his weekly massage, right? Yeah.

43:40

What's the next thing that happens? Well,

43:42

at some point, he invited

43:45

me to go out for dinner and

43:49

yeah, that

43:52

was something that I shouldn't have done.

43:54

I was on my own

43:56

at this point so I can't even pretend to

43:58

blame my dad. colleague. I

44:00

didn't ask her because she didn't know

44:02

I took Bill and

44:05

so he invited me out for dinner and I thought,

44:08

what would she say, you know? And so

44:11

I thought, oh, she would think this was a

44:13

great idea. Because she's, well she's given you

44:15

permission every other time. I,

44:17

it's ridiculous. It's me. He was like

44:20

the dad I wanted that I didn't

44:22

have and he wanted to go out

44:24

to a nice restaurant and have dinner and I said,

44:27

sure, that sounds great. That sounds great. So we

44:29

went out to dinner and we

44:31

had a really nice dinner and I know

44:34

it's hard

44:36

to believe it sounds unfathomable but at

44:39

the time, this is about where my

44:42

naivete is about to end but I

44:45

truly, I'm so delusional. I think I was

44:47

so desperate for a dad. I truly

44:49

thought like we're just having

44:52

a nice dinner, me and this dad

44:55

figure. During the course of

44:57

dinner, he might have had

45:00

a martini or two. I didn't keep track.

45:02

He said he had martinis all the time and so we

45:04

had dinner. When we

45:06

went outside and I was leaving,

45:08

he tried to kiss me. Oh my

45:10

gosh. Yeah. So there

45:12

it is. This is the moment. Yeah.

45:15

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was

45:17

disgusting. I felt like I was

45:19

going to throw up. I was

45:21

so surprised. I just kind

45:23

of rebuffed him and I said,

45:26

you know, Bill, what are you doing? This is ridiculous.

45:29

You had too much to drink. I just

45:31

couldn't even believe it but

45:33

I kind of just brushed it off like he

45:36

had too many martinis. He's a

45:38

small man and I

45:40

went home. So how

45:42

does this change your relationship or

45:46

does it? Well, I thought

45:48

that I could just pretend

45:50

it never happened because that's, I don't know,

45:52

I was raised in the 70s and

45:56

my dad's an alcoholic. You know what I mean?

45:58

I just thought, crazy

46:00

shit happens and you don't talk about it

46:03

and you move on. Yeah so I just thought

46:05

maybe it would just go away. I mean

46:08

I was terrified honestly I was

46:10

really really concerned I didn't want

46:12

to lose my client I also

46:14

was really upset and hurt and

46:16

I just felt disgusting really. So

46:19

I got home and I just

46:21

was like trying to calm my

46:23

nervous system and

46:25

I got a text message from him.

46:28

Oh my gosh I can't imagine what it said. Neither

46:33

could I really I could not imagine

46:35

that this surrogate

46:38

dad 74 year

46:41

old man who I

46:43

had you know just thought was a I

46:45

don't know ridiculous it was ridiculous. I mean I

46:47

guess it goes either of either of two ways.

46:51

Okay. There's an apology. I'm

46:55

really sorry. Yeah uh-huh. Or

46:59

come on over. Keys in the mailbox. Ewwwwwwww.

47:06

Ewwwwww. So I would think

47:08

it was the apology also.

47:10

Yeah. A hundred percent.

47:12

Right. Yeah no it

47:14

was not it was um you

47:17

should come over my wife is out of

47:19

town. Wow. The door is unlocked. Okay.

47:21

Mm-hmm. Door number two. Ewwwwwwww.

47:25

Ewwwwww. I wanted to throw up.

47:28

Mm-hmm. Wow. So that's

47:30

remarkable that after you

47:33

rebuffed him for the kiss at dinner

47:35

just an hour or so earlier he's

47:37

now thinks that the game's still on

47:39

and that you're interested in coming over?

47:41

Can't even wrap my head around it.

47:43

No idea. Yep. Okay. Or he

47:45

was drunk or he's just used to getting what

47:48

he wants. I don't know. Okay.

47:50

Mm-hmm. Alright so did you

47:52

did you answer the text? Yeah I

47:54

said what are you talking about? I am

47:57

not coming over. Okay. Stop. Yeah.

48:01

That's disgusting. If I

48:03

wasn't clear before, I'm clear now. No

48:05

more. Exactly. Okay.

48:08

100% like what the fuck. Like

48:11

I probably didn't even know to write WTF at

48:13

the time because I'm not very technologically savvy. I

48:16

probably wrote what the fuck. All right.

48:19

Okay. Well, that's more clear than WTF. Yeah.

48:22

I was so upset. Hopefully you

48:24

got the message. So, okay. So,

48:27

that shut down the conversation? Yes.

48:29

Okay. Yes. So,

48:32

he's still got an appointment on the books, I'm sure. He's

48:34

a regular customer. So, does

48:36

he come in at the appointed time for

48:38

his next massage? Yeah.

48:41

Okay. Yeah. It's funny. I

48:44

didn't know what to expect. I'm kind of sweating actually remembering

48:46

this now. I was really

48:49

like, does he come? Does he not come? He

48:51

came. Yeah. We

48:53

carried on as if everything was normal. So,

48:56

it was as if the evening had

48:58

not happened. Yeah. And you know,

49:00

I was raised by an alcoholic. So, I was

49:03

used to like inappropriate things happening or him

49:05

doing things like, you know, and then next

49:07

day nobody talked about it. Like,

49:10

I just was thinking, oh,

49:13

maybe he forgot or maybe

49:15

he didn't forget but we can both pretend. Right.

49:19

Okay. So, you guys are busy pretending

49:21

it never happened. And the

49:23

conversations continue, right? Did

49:25

you ever discuss that your interim pastor

49:28

had cosigned your loan for your house?

49:32

Yes. He knew

49:34

that I had a private mortgage

49:36

through this pastor friend. He did.

49:39

Yeah. And did he express

49:42

any feelings about that? Yeah. At

49:44

some point, he told me that this

49:46

was extremely unhealthy and inappropriate

49:48

to have this kind of relationship

49:51

with... Okay. I

49:53

know. Hello, pot. I'm going to take

49:55

his kettle. Right. I know. I

49:58

know. He thought it was... You

50:00

know, yeah, so he thought it was inappropriate

50:02

and that it created. This is so embarrassing

50:04

to say all that. Thank

50:07

you for saving me from saying it. I

50:10

know. He said, this creates a

50:12

weird power dynamic. I don't like

50:14

you being in this kind of

50:16

dynamic with somebody. Oh my God,

50:18

that is hilarious. I know, I know.

50:21

She has control over you. It's weird.

50:23

I don't think it's healthy that you have

50:25

a private mortgage from this person.

50:28

And I said, I think it's the greatest

50:30

thing that ever happened. It's like the sweetest

50:32

thing that anyone could ever

50:34

do in the world. I have no

50:36

problems with it. I'm in

50:38

love with the fact that this

50:40

happened. It's really an inspiring story.

50:42

Okay. But he, yeah, he didn't

50:45

share the feeling. He was disgusted. Like

50:47

he was jealous, I think. I think he

50:49

was jealous that I had this

50:51

relationship with this other person. That's what it

50:53

seems like. That's weird. Yeah.

50:56

And there's kind of a nexus about to happen here

50:58

where he thinks

51:00

that you've got this terrible power dynamic

51:02

going on where you owe your pastor

51:04

some money and he's

51:06

about to sell a da Vinci. Ah,

51:09

yes, yes. Yeah, okay. So, yeah, tell

51:11

me how these two things kind of

51:13

cross. He came in.

51:15

I mean, he was coming once a week and every

51:17

week he would come in and we'd do our thing,

51:19

same old thing, carrying on as usual.

51:22

And then this da Vinci deal was

51:25

going on for a long time and I

51:27

just listened and yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of

51:29

like Charlie Brown. I heard him wa-wa-wa. I

51:33

just really, yeah, I just didn't take

51:36

it too seriously. And at some point, oh,

51:38

at some point he said, he's

51:40

a big talker. He's a big, he's grandiose. He

51:42

said, you know, if I, if I sell this

51:44

da Vinci, I'm going to pay

51:46

off your mortgage. Oh, wow.

51:49

Okay. So you're like, yeah, yeah, stop

51:52

it. And I'm working.

51:56

I like, oh wait, Dell, Dell. Like

52:00

just knock it off. Right.

52:02

Knock it off. Like this is,

52:04

that's ridiculous. Anyway, keep on moving. You

52:06

know, now I'm on, I'm on the,

52:09

you know, working on his

52:11

hamstrings, whatever. You know, I'm just

52:13

working away. He's saying this ridiculous

52:16

thing and I just kind of was like, yeah,

52:18

whatever. That's ridiculous. Don't be silly. Yeah.

52:20

I didn't take it seriously at all. And

52:22

so he brought it up and

52:24

then, you know, maybe two months later

52:26

he'd be like, Hey, the sale's almost

52:28

done. And I felt like he was

52:31

sort of dangling a carrot, but I

52:33

didn't, but I didn't care.

52:36

It's like dangling a carrot. Yeah.

52:38

Well, you didn't take him seriously. Yeah.

52:40

And also I don't need, you're

52:43

doing fine. I don't

52:45

need anything. I'm, I'm completely

52:47

self-sufficient here. I'm fine.

52:50

Yeah. It's a weird power thing, a weird

52:52

power thing where he's bragging, but

52:55

I didn't care. I mean, he

52:57

is offering to you the

52:59

opportunity to exchange one weird

53:01

power dynamic for another weird

53:03

paradynamic, but maybe that's lost

53:06

on me. And

53:08

it was lost on me because honestly, I didn't

53:10

feel that the dynamic between me and the pastor

53:13

was weird. In his view, I mean,

53:15

of course, but in my view, I

53:17

also, yes, I didn't even take this

53:19

seriously. It was really just like water

53:22

running under a bridge. It was, you know, it was

53:25

just a sound moving past me. I didn't take it

53:27

seriously. Who's going to give me $120,000 for nothing? Yeah.

53:31

Right. That's crazy. So,

53:35

all right. So you tell him this is insane,

53:37

Bill. Forget it. What are you talking

53:39

about? And he continues to come

53:41

in and the deal continues to

53:43

progress, right? Yeah. And I

53:46

mean, you just keep in mind that like

53:48

during the course of the massage, like I'm

53:50

actively working, I'm actually doing a job here.

53:52

So, I mean, I don't mean to undermine

53:54

the fact that I was thoroughly engaged in

53:56

my job thinking that what I was doing

53:58

was therapeutic and. like focusing

54:00

on that. So I will give just

54:04

to say that my mind was

54:06

otherwise occupied with like attachments and

54:09

muscles and working on

54:11

this project that was occupying

54:14

my mind. And so he is

54:16

occupied clearly with some other topic

54:19

and then one day

54:21

he came in and said

54:23

that he had sold the da

54:25

Vinci. Oh my God.

54:28

So he's probably not kidding around.

54:30

I mean this is a legit thing that's

54:32

happening. He really has a da

54:34

Vinci and he's really selling it. I

54:36

don't know. I mean I was like okay

54:38

whatever and he's like I'm gonna pay and so

54:41

he told me he had sold the da Vinci. I didn't say oh

54:44

hey are you gonna pay off my mortgage? I was

54:46

like I'm so happy for you. That's

54:48

great. Congratulations. Yeah,

54:51

yeah great. You're happy for your friend. Good job.

54:54

Yeah, exactly. Clients have good things happen to

54:56

them and I'm happy for them. So

54:58

I said that's great. Happy for you.

55:02

When he told you that the painting sold, did he

55:04

also renew his offer to pay off

55:06

your mortgage? He

55:11

sent me a message. He sent me a

55:13

message and asked if he could stop by. And

55:16

I was like okay sure

55:18

stop by. Just to say

55:21

hi. I mean it

55:23

was not for a massage right? Yeah,

55:25

no. It was in between massages

55:27

and you know so now there

55:29

was a moment when you know

55:31

I thought there's no

55:33

way. There's no way

55:36

he's really gonna. He

55:38

did just tell me he sold the da Vinci.

55:40

Wow okay so you've got a clue that maybe

55:42

he's coming by with a wheelbarrow of cash. I

55:46

honestly like who could ever think that was really gonna

55:48

happen but like also why would this guy be like

55:50

hey can I stop at your house? Right. I

55:53

was like sure sure come

55:55

on by. Ben

55:59

straight. Some stranger things have happened. Some

56:02

pastor from my town took

56:04

out a private mortgage on her house. Yeah. Who

56:07

knows what lies in people's hearts? People are handing

56:09

you money every which way. Not

56:15

really. But I, you know, who knows? You

56:18

know, there's like this tiny part of me that's

56:20

like, wait, is he going to show up? I

56:22

didn't think really with $120,000, but you know, maybe

56:24

he's going to show up with like I

56:29

don't know. Who knows? I

56:31

just didn't know. I said, sure. Come

56:34

on by. Yep. So

56:36

he came by. So excited.

56:39

The anticipation is killing me. Well,

56:43

it's not as great as it sounds. I mean,

56:45

it's great. He gave me a freaking check. Oh

56:47

my God. He gave me a

56:49

check for $120,000. Holy

56:53

cow. All right. So

56:55

it was not a joke. Well, no,

56:58

I didn't know. What do you say

57:00

when somebody hands you a check for $120,000? I

57:04

say, stop it. There's no way

57:06

I can accept this money. Yeah. Of

57:10

course I can. My parents wouldn't even

57:12

let me accept like the smallest of

57:14

gifts from anybody. I was like, Bill,

57:18

there, I can't accept this. There's

57:20

no way. Take this back. He

57:23

was insistent just like with a bottle

57:25

of whiskey. It's

57:27

a little different. But you

57:30

know, he said, I am not

57:32

taking this back. I want you to have it. I

57:35

don't have any children of my own

57:39

and I want

57:41

you to have this. Wow. Yeah.

57:45

I have plenty of money. I want to

57:47

do this for you. You

57:49

have three young children and you

57:51

are the hardest working person I know. I'm

57:55

so proud of you. All

57:58

the things you'd like to hear. your dad

58:00

say. Yeah, he's choosing the perfect

58:02

words. He is now actually playing the

58:04

role of father figure. Yeah, 100%. I

58:07

have no children of my own. Yes.

58:10

Yeah, and so it's appealing to you. Oh,

58:12

I was like about to cry. I was

58:14

about to cry, you know. It

58:16

was more than just the money.

58:19

It was the acknowledgement that I

58:21

was a valuable person

58:24

doing something. Yeah. It

58:26

meant a lot to me. Even if I had said

58:28

one more time, you can't give this to me, and he

58:30

had said, okay, I won't. I won't give

58:32

it to you. And he took it back. That sentiment

58:34

that he expressed meant more than I can even express.

58:37

Needless to say, you are deeply

58:39

touched. Yeah.

58:42

Yeah. With his generosity.

58:44

Yeah, I was blown away. No

58:47

one in my own family had ever done anything.

58:50

Yeah, it was the

58:52

sweetest. Yeah. Yeah, your own

58:54

family had offered and backed off on

58:56

two occasions. Yeah. To co-sign

58:58

your loan. And here you are,

59:01

this nicer old man

59:03

who you have had questionable run-ins

59:05

with, but nevertheless have formed

59:07

a friendship with, is giving you

59:09

$120,000. And he has

59:11

stated there are no strings, right? Oh,

59:14

yeah. I just, I really want to support

59:16

you and your kids. I value what you're

59:18

doing. You do not owe me. I asked

59:20

him, you know, what about your wife? There

59:22

are no strings attached to this. You don't owe

59:24

me anything. Does he get a

59:26

lifetime membership now? I

59:29

know. I felt really stupid, but it really was like

59:31

he was just going to keep coming in for massage

59:33

and paying me for massage, like as if nothing had

59:35

happened. It really felt like

59:37

the most altruistic, beautiful thing ever.

59:40

So it sounds to me like you deposited

59:43

the check and paid off your house. So

59:46

I deposited the check. You did? Yeah.

59:50

And I continued to pay the monthly

59:53

payment to my pastor

59:56

friend. And

59:59

I just wasn't... totally

1:00:02

sure about it like being real.

1:00:05

Right, like is he gonna change his mind? Exactly

1:00:08

and like am I gonna

1:00:10

change my mind? Am I gonna realize

1:00:13

like this is a terrible life? You

1:00:15

know so it didn't take long though

1:00:17

honestly for him to change

1:00:20

the playing field. Oh. I

1:00:23

had just deposited it in

1:00:25

my account and he

1:00:27

asked me if I could meet him for

1:00:29

lunch. So there are drinks. Well

1:00:33

I had gone out to dinner with him in the past

1:00:35

you know so I and I had played

1:00:37

tennis with him in the past and so honestly

1:00:40

for me I thought how lovely I'm

1:00:42

gonna go out for lunch with my

1:00:45

delightful older friend. Right.

1:00:48

Who is a lovely friend.

1:00:51

Yeah I mean I didn't I didn't I

1:00:53

didn't have any concerns about that I was very happy

1:00:55

to go out to it was a daytime you know

1:00:57

weekend but let's go out for lunch and

1:00:59

I thought that sounded wonderful. Now you didn't

1:01:01

feel indebted to him over a $200 bottle

1:01:03

of whiskey but do you feel indebted to him now? I

1:01:12

feel indebted to him a little

1:01:14

bit in terms of like

1:01:17

of course I'll go out to lunch with you

1:01:19

indebted maybe. Yeah. Okay.

1:01:22

Like if you want to go out to lunch every

1:01:24

weekend indebted no probably a little more indebted

1:01:26

than I would be but I'm very

1:01:28

naive I did take him at face

1:01:30

value I really did think it was

1:01:32

just like like I see

1:01:34

you I see that you're doing this

1:01:36

and to him money was no it

1:01:39

was not a thing. Okay so you go

1:01:41

to lunch. Yeah and I cared

1:01:43

about him I wanted to sit and have lunch

1:01:45

with him and say thank you and enjoy some

1:01:47

time I thought it would be nice. Talk

1:01:50

about Georgia O'Keeffe. Correct. And then you go

1:01:52

to Da Vinci. Right. Catch

1:01:55

up on the sale. Yeah right catch

1:01:57

up on the sale. So,

1:02:00

okay, so you go to lunch and what

1:02:03

happens? How's the conversation go? Well,

1:02:06

we ordered a nice meal. We

1:02:08

were talking. At

1:02:10

some point he said that he

1:02:12

had a proposal for me. Oh

1:02:15

my gosh. Here we go again. What

1:02:20

on earth could he propose? I mean, I can

1:02:22

think of like a thousand different ways this could

1:02:24

go. Yeah,

1:02:26

I mean, I honestly, I didn't think

1:02:28

of the thing. I didn't even have

1:02:31

that moment of like what you

1:02:33

just said. I didn't think what

1:02:36

the hell is happening. What is he

1:02:38

gonna? I just was like, I wonder

1:02:40

what Bill has in mind because

1:02:43

I trust this man. Yeah. I

1:02:46

truly really didn't think anything about him.

1:02:48

Like I wonder what he's gonna propose.

1:02:50

Like does he want me to babysit

1:02:53

for his Georgia O'Keeffe painting? I

1:02:56

don't know. And that

1:02:59

was not what he proposed. What

1:03:01

did he propose? And

1:03:05

the rubber is about to meet the road. Bill's

1:03:08

proposition and Joe's answer when

1:03:10

we return. I

1:03:25

love hearing my mom's stories. And as she's getting

1:03:27

older, they're taking on extra value for me. Like

1:03:30

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1:03:32

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1:03:34

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1:03:36

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1:03:38

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1:03:41

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to save $10

1:04:48

on your first purchase. And

1:05:01

we're back with Bill's highly anticipated move.

1:05:06

He suggested that

1:05:10

he wanted me to be his lover.

1:05:16

Here it is again. Oh my

1:05:19

gosh. All right. Uh-huh.

1:05:23

Well, this is different than the night when we went

1:05:25

out to dinner and he just tried to kiss me

1:05:27

in the dark when he was drunk. This

1:05:29

was broad daylight. I am

1:05:32

a grown woman sitting here at the table

1:05:34

across from him. He has no excuses and I had no

1:05:37

excuse to be this

1:05:40

naive either. I will be honest. I feel like

1:05:43

an idiot for it. But you know,

1:05:45

we're sitting there at the table and he

1:05:48

suggested and he felt totally comfortable

1:05:50

doing so. He was not in

1:05:52

any way embarrassed or ashamed. So therefore

1:05:54

I also would speculate I have given

1:05:57

him a reason to believe.

1:06:00

that this is in some way a viable

1:06:02

thing to speak out loud. So

1:06:04

he proposed to me with

1:06:07

no qualms whatsoever that he

1:06:10

wanted me to meet

1:06:13

with him in a hotel once

1:06:16

a week and fuck him. And

1:06:21

I mean, I'm just going to be honest, I

1:06:23

may be skirting around. He was a

1:06:25

little bit vulgar in talking about his mistress

1:06:27

in ways in the past

1:06:30

and in ways that made me a little

1:06:32

uncomfortable, like just disrespectful, I think. And

1:06:35

he wanted me to come

1:06:38

and wanted to fuck me

1:06:40

and have a nice dinner, but basically

1:06:42

just fuck me if

1:06:44

that was something that I was willing to agree to.

1:06:46

It had nothing to do with the previous, the

1:06:50

sale of the painting. He wanted

1:06:52

to offer to support me

1:06:56

and my kids and he would

1:06:58

basically pay for everything. Wow.

1:07:00

Moving forward. Oh my goodness.

1:07:02

I'm not beholden to him or

1:07:04

anything. It's just like, hey, moving

1:07:06

forward, let's get together once

1:07:09

a week. We can fuck our brains out

1:07:11

in a hotel and

1:07:13

have a dinner, a nice dinner, expensive stuff and

1:07:15

whatever. And I'll take care of you and your

1:07:17

kids. Like as if it was a totally normal

1:07:19

thing. Like no qualms whatsoever

1:07:22

on his side. Like it really, he was

1:07:25

sober a hundred percent. Just

1:07:28

pay. Well here's the

1:07:30

new weird power dynamic in play. My

1:07:37

pastor never ever asked

1:07:39

me anything like that. And

1:07:44

I didn't mean to suggest that your

1:07:46

pastor had, but yeah, he didn't want

1:07:48

you to be in a weird power

1:07:50

dynamic. Uh-huh. He wanted you in

1:07:52

his own weird power dynamic. I

1:07:55

do not even know what to say. So

1:07:58

I'm not going to say that. I mean, you've

1:08:00

clearly turned him down at least a couple

1:08:02

of times previously. He is not

1:08:04

getting the signals. How did you react when

1:08:06

he made this proposal? I

1:08:10

was devastated. I was

1:08:13

so hurt and upset and I was

1:08:15

like, Bill, are

1:08:18

you kidding? I

1:08:20

feel sick right now just talking about it,

1:08:23

like remembering that feeling. I felt like I was

1:08:25

going to throw up. Yeah.

1:08:27

And I just was like about to

1:08:30

cry. What are you, what the

1:08:32

fuck are you talking about? Yeah.

1:08:34

Are you, are you fucking kidding

1:08:37

me? Like, are

1:08:39

you insane? And

1:08:42

he was completely

1:08:45

like, it's normal. Why would

1:08:48

you be offended? And

1:08:50

I was so

1:08:52

shocked and disgusted and hurt

1:08:55

and I just stood

1:08:57

up at some point. I mean, I think I tried to

1:08:59

get him to back out of it for a little bit.

1:09:02

Like, you know, you can't really

1:09:04

mean this. What are you talking about? And then, you

1:09:07

know, very shortly thereafter, I just was like,

1:09:10

you're a fucking pig and fuck

1:09:12

you. Good for you. You fucking

1:09:15

asshole. And Nick,

1:09:18

I've never done anything like that in my life. I mean,

1:09:20

I just stood up from the restaurant in the

1:09:22

middle of, we had just gotten served our food

1:09:24

and I just said, like, fuck

1:09:26

off, Bill. I like, fuck

1:09:29

you. So, fuck you. What did

1:09:31

he say? I don't know

1:09:33

what he said because I walked right out and he was

1:09:35

just sitting there at the table. He was probably

1:09:37

dumbfounded. He, you know, it seems like he thought

1:09:39

I was going to maybe accept or something. Well,

1:09:42

I mean, obviously he thought you were going

1:09:44

to accept. Yeah. I don't

1:09:46

think he would have made the proposition if he thought

1:09:48

you were going to say no. Yeah. Think he thought

1:09:50

he had a pretty good chance for success. Okay. So

1:09:52

now you've got a conundrum, right? Because I don't

1:09:55

see how he can remain as a client any longer after

1:09:57

this, but we'll find out. But also.

1:10:00

And you have not paid off your house. The money

1:10:02

is still sitting in your bank account. Correct.

1:10:05

Yeah. Yeah. So

1:10:07

you've got to decide what to do. Like, do you get

1:10:09

the money back to him? I mean,

1:10:11

no question in my mind. I

1:10:13

was like, well, fuck him. This

1:10:16

whole thing was to try to get me to

1:10:19

have sex with him. He's

1:10:21

disgusting. I don't want anything to do

1:10:23

with his money. And so I

1:10:26

sent him a check for $120,000. Oh,

1:10:30

wow. Yeah. I mean, it's weird. I

1:10:33

didn't even know you could make a check for that

1:10:35

much money. Yeah. I

1:10:37

mean, you didn't wire it. You didn't

1:10:39

do a cashier's check. You just wrote

1:10:41

a personal check. Yeah.

1:10:44

Like, when he gave me the first check and

1:10:46

I went to the bank and I deposited it,

1:10:48

I thought someone was going to stop me, you

1:10:50

know, and say, like, hey, who are

1:10:52

you, punk? Right. So just like

1:10:54

another day at the bank, $120,000 check. Yeah.

1:11:00

And so I just was like, I guess

1:11:02

I, you know, I know I have that

1:11:04

money in the account. So I just wrote

1:11:06

that same crazy insane amount on a check

1:11:10

and mailed it back to him.

1:11:12

Oh, my gosh. Well, how did that feel?

1:11:14

I mean, I think I might

1:11:16

have dropped it off at his house. I can't remember

1:11:18

if I mailed it or dropped it off, to

1:11:20

be honest. But I imagine you would

1:11:22

have mixed feelings about it. I

1:11:25

mean, money was so close. You know, it was going

1:11:27

to give you certain, not complete financial freedom, but it

1:11:29

would certainly make life easier not

1:11:31

to have a mortgage payment. And

1:11:33

it was in your grasp, right?

1:11:35

In your grasp. And then this

1:11:37

horrible event happens and

1:11:40

you're just like, I cannot

1:11:42

live with this money. And so you give it back.

1:11:48

Yeah. I mean, I just honestly, I

1:11:52

just wish that it had never happened.

1:11:54

And it wasn't my

1:11:56

money. So your reaction was totally pure.

1:11:59

You didn't? You didn't have any

1:12:01

hesitation like how part of me really wants

1:12:03

to hold on to this. Mm-hmm.

1:12:06

Mm-hmm. I mean, no,

1:12:08

I mean, of course, who doesn't want $120,000? Sure.

1:12:12

And I was scared that I wasn't going to be able

1:12:14

to pull this off raising my kids without, you know, it's

1:12:16

a lot. It was a lot. And I

1:12:18

would be lying if I didn't admit that

1:12:21

there were moments later on in the

1:12:23

future when I came

1:12:25

to find out that that amount

1:12:28

of money actually doesn't mean that you're all

1:12:30

taken care of for the rest of your

1:12:32

life. Right. That I didn't look back

1:12:34

and think, maybe

1:12:36

I should have not been so

1:12:39

rash in my rejection of

1:12:42

it. You

1:12:44

know, there was like a

1:12:46

tiny look back thinking, is

1:12:49

there any way I could have tolerated that?

1:12:52

And then, of course, you know, within an eighth

1:12:54

of a second, I would be like, oh

1:12:57

my God, that's disgusting. Like, you know.

1:13:00

But yeah, of course, it's

1:13:02

huge. But at the same time,

1:13:04

honestly, the disrespect and

1:13:07

the disappointment and more for me,

1:13:09

which is my own stuff

1:13:12

that I need to like obviously work on, is

1:13:14

that I was so devastated,

1:13:16

it felt incestuous to me.

1:13:18

You know, it felt like

1:13:20

such a violation and I just didn't

1:13:22

want to have anything to do with

1:13:25

that money. It felt disgusting. And so,

1:13:28

I wanted to return it and I wanted

1:13:30

to erase the entire thing. So,

1:13:32

how did he react when you returned the money? Did you

1:13:34

hear from him? Yeah.

1:13:37

So, I think he

1:13:39

came over to my house actually.

1:13:43

I remember sitting in his car at some

1:13:45

point crying and

1:13:48

he said that he would

1:13:51

never cash that check. Okay.

1:13:54

And I was crying.

1:14:00

I was unable to compose

1:14:02

myself of like how

1:14:05

upset I was and hurt I was

1:14:07

that this had happened and how dirty

1:14:10

this made me feel and

1:14:12

how I could not like

1:14:15

accept this money that

1:14:18

it was disgusting to me and

1:14:20

that you know I was upset that

1:14:22

he wouldn't take it back that

1:14:24

he wouldn't. He said I

1:14:26

won't cash the check like you know there's nothing you can

1:14:28

do to make me cash this

1:14:31

check and I just was fucked

1:14:33

up. I was super fucked up by it so I

1:14:35

just got out of the car and left

1:14:38

this is it like we're done there's

1:14:40

no more obviously he's not

1:14:42

coming in for massage anymore you know

1:14:44

we're never going to talk again it's the

1:14:47

end and I just remember going

1:14:51

inside my house and being crushed

1:14:55

you know and I

1:14:57

didn't believe that he wouldn't cash

1:15:00

the check like I thought of course who's you

1:15:02

know who's going to really not cash a hundred

1:15:04

and twenty thousand dollar check but I

1:15:07

just was really

1:15:10

consumed by the hurt of

1:15:12

the whole thing of him thinking that

1:15:14

I was basically like a prostitute or

1:15:16

something I don't know. Boy this guy

1:15:19

really did a number. Well

1:15:23

I'm you know I'm I

1:15:25

was 40 so I'm not a kid I

1:15:27

should have you know I

1:15:30

had obviously unresolved. Yeah

1:15:35

all right so you're watching your bank

1:15:37

account I imagine with keen interest to

1:15:39

see if this check

1:15:42

ever gets cashed if the money just vaporizes

1:15:45

from your account. Yeah so

1:15:47

I just carried on and tried you

1:15:49

know like any good child of an

1:15:51

alcoholic does. Okay right. I carried

1:15:53

on nothing had happened and kept

1:15:55

on doing my thing and I kept

1:15:57

paying my mortgage would look at my bills.

1:16:00

bank account and money

1:16:02

is still there. Yeah, a

1:16:04

period of time passed and the

1:16:07

money wasn't cashed and I might

1:16:10

have reached out to him one more time

1:16:12

like texting or you know there was just

1:16:14

no indication from him that he was going

1:16:16

to change his mind and I couldn't

1:16:19

really believe I don't

1:16:22

know it just sat there for a not

1:16:24

too long couple months maybe six months or

1:16:26

five months. That's a long time to be

1:16:28

watching that money. I can't imagine. I don't know.

1:16:32

I mean life is busy when you're raising three

1:16:35

kids you know I just like literally was like

1:16:37

who knows whatever it's so fucked up

1:16:39

it's so unreal am I in a

1:16:41

dream when am I gonna wake up. I

1:16:43

knew ultimately of course if he does

1:16:46

not cash his check of course I'm

1:16:48

going to pay off my

1:16:50

mortgage you know I just

1:16:53

but I didn't know how I don't know how long

1:16:56

I waited and then at some point I just realized

1:16:58

that this man was never going to cash this check

1:17:00

and there was my mortgage

1:17:03

was paid for and so

1:17:05

I wrote a check.

1:17:08

Another insane check. I

1:17:11

wrote a check to my pastor friend and

1:17:14

I paid off my mortgage. No

1:17:17

kidding wow. What

1:17:20

a mix of emotions you must

1:17:22

have had I mean on one

1:17:25

hand this really helps your financial

1:17:27

life out immensely but maybe what

1:17:29

personal cost you know. Wow.

1:17:32

Yeah I mean it's a gross

1:17:35

memory I really I don't

1:17:38

look back fondly on that experience

1:17:40

at all and I don't want

1:17:42

to sound ungrateful right or this

1:17:44

incredible charity that I received from

1:17:47

most particularly from the person who took

1:17:49

out the home equity loan. What

1:17:51

a spectacular and selfless thing but

1:17:53

also I can't

1:17:55

say for sure that for him the two

1:17:59

things were. linked. I

1:18:01

can't say that. He didn't

1:18:03

take the money back when I refused his offer. Who

1:18:06

knows what goes on in the heart

1:18:08

of this older man who,

1:18:10

you know what I

1:18:12

mean? He maybe had mixed up feelings too. Maybe

1:18:14

he thought, you know, I want

1:18:17

to help this woman and that was

1:18:19

one thing and then he was

1:18:21

like, I'm really lonely. I want to have, I

1:18:24

miss my mistress. I want to have a mistress. I can't.

1:18:28

I don't know what it was for him and I'm

1:18:31

so grateful. Interesting question. Can both be

1:18:33

true? You know, can he have

1:18:35

true affection for you and

1:18:37

want you to be a success but

1:18:39

also be driven by these carnal

1:18:42

desires? I don't know how to put it.

1:18:45

I don't even know. I

1:18:47

mean, I think he's probably got some

1:18:50

maybe narcissism or I

1:18:53

don't know. There's something not quite right.

1:18:55

I think. I

1:18:58

think you're right. I just heard

1:19:00

that question in your words

1:19:02

and just wanted to explore that with you. Yeah.

1:19:05

Because you did have a bond with him. I'm

1:19:09

going to say, you tell me if I'm wrong that it

1:19:11

was unhealthy but there were parts of

1:19:13

it that felt good at times. Yeah.

1:19:16

Maybe not. No, I mean really,

1:19:18

really my memory of that experience with

1:19:20

him is it's pretty tarnished.

1:19:23

Yeah. It's tarnished. I

1:19:25

don't you know, I've

1:19:27

seen other Georgia O'Keeffe subsequently

1:19:29

and I didn't have

1:19:31

to be treated like a

1:19:33

prostitute to see them. Right. You

1:19:36

know, I can play tennis on the local

1:19:38

tennis courts. You know, I subsequently picked

1:19:40

up pickleball and I have a really good

1:19:42

time with old men. Yeah, lots of old

1:19:45

men that I played pickleball with and none

1:19:47

of them disrespect me in that kind of

1:19:49

way. I know people are

1:19:51

going to listen to this and think this girl is ridiculous.

1:19:53

He's a predator. Maybe.

1:19:55

I don't know. Is

1:19:58

Bill a predator? weird. I

1:20:00

can't really say that he's a predator but

1:20:03

I can certainly say I can say

1:20:05

that I think I was probably targeted. I

1:20:10

don't feel like I can actually call him a

1:20:12

predator which is weird. I

1:20:14

mean I don't know that you have to have an answer for it but

1:20:17

you're the one who knows the real story right?

1:20:19

I mean it's your story you're the one who feels

1:20:21

it and loved it. Yeah I've

1:20:24

sort of reconciled it in my head that

1:20:26

maybe he's a lonely man maybe

1:20:28

showing his art or playing

1:20:32

tennis or maybe these are

1:20:34

ways he thinks people will be friends with him

1:20:36

and for me those were added

1:20:38

like wow cool I get to go see

1:20:41

a painting maybe that's just the only way

1:20:43

he knew how to interact and

1:20:45

then at the same time he was lonely.

1:20:48

So how long has it been now since you paid

1:20:50

off your house? Wow I

1:20:55

don't know eight years maybe? And

1:20:57

you're still in that house today? Yeah

1:21:00

I'm probably never gonna leave this house.

1:21:03

And when was the last time that you spoke to

1:21:05

Bill? I called him

1:21:07

a couple years ago to thank

1:21:12

him and

1:21:14

that was the last conversation I've had with

1:21:16

him. I just felt like it

1:21:18

had ended so unpleasantly.

1:21:22

I had been really

1:21:24

angry and so I just wanted

1:21:26

to say you know

1:21:29

everything has worked

1:21:31

out well for me and

1:21:33

the kids and I apologize

1:21:36

for having you know been so

1:21:40

angry and I just wanted

1:21:43

to let you know that like everything turned out okay

1:21:45

and say thank you. Hmm that

1:21:47

was generous of you I mean I think you had every right to

1:21:49

be as angry as you were obviously

1:21:52

and more. I

1:21:56

don't know he gave me a hundred and twenty thousand dollars.

1:21:59

Yeah. Also I was raised Catholic so I

1:22:01

think everything's my fault so I

1:22:03

do. Well looking back I have one

1:22:06

through one or two more questions for you.

1:22:08

Looking back now with the benefit of hindsight

1:22:10

do you feel you made the

1:22:12

right decision cashing the check or do you wish you would

1:22:15

have torn it up or given it to

1:22:17

charity? I don't

1:22:20

regret at all cashing

1:22:22

that check. I have

1:22:24

used it to raise my

1:22:27

kids and provide a good home

1:22:29

for them and do other

1:22:31

things for my community and I'm

1:22:34

licensed to foster kids in this house now

1:22:36

that my kids are in college. Amazing.

1:22:38

You know I haven't started yet actually

1:22:41

taking kids in but you

1:22:43

know I feel like this house is a gift

1:22:47

that you know is

1:22:49

just a miracle that I never expected

1:22:51

and so I'm going to

1:22:53

use it to help other people so no

1:22:55

I don't regret it at all. That's great.

1:22:57

Yeah. So why Joe why did you want

1:23:00

to tell your secret? First off

1:23:02

Ben I love your show. Thank

1:23:04

you. I love your show. Thank you. Yeah and

1:23:06

I love listening to the stories that you

1:23:08

tell and I just thought it's

1:23:11

a crazy story. Yeah. And

1:23:14

perhaps you

1:23:16

know I listen to some of the older shows and

1:23:19

when you used to do it you

1:23:21

had a co-host and one of the things I thought

1:23:23

was funny was you guys talked

1:23:25

about the show being sex adjacent. Yeah. I

1:23:29

think this fits into like your original

1:23:31

mission. Like it's

1:23:34

sex adjacent and it's

1:23:36

a sort of a fun. No one

1:23:39

got really harmed. It's

1:23:41

shit you can't even believe would happen. Right.

1:23:44

Also I do feel that like keeping

1:23:46

secrets it creates a sense of

1:23:48

shame. I don't want to

1:23:50

feel ashamed about this but at the same

1:23:53

time I don't feel like comfortable

1:23:55

running around and talking about it. So I

1:23:57

thought this would be a great place to just kind

1:23:59

of go. get it out. I get it. Well,

1:24:09

thank you Joe. Thank you so

1:24:11

much for sharing your story with

1:24:13

us. What a ride. Thank you Ben.

1:24:15

Yeah, it was amazing.

1:24:18

The outcome was amazing. The circumstances

1:24:21

were kind of weird. Yeah, well I'm glad

1:24:23

you've been able to pay it forward. Yeah,

1:24:25

thanks for having me. Hi

1:24:35

Ben, speaking with you about Bill brought

1:24:38

up so many emotions and

1:24:41

I realize in

1:24:44

retrospect that I

1:24:48

think I do miss him. He was

1:24:51

a really interesting character

1:24:53

and obviously a generous

1:24:55

person who had such a

1:24:58

positive effect on my life

1:25:00

and it does make me sad

1:25:03

and I can't just enjoy that relationship

1:25:05

with him and

1:25:09

share how

1:25:11

much his gift meant to me and my

1:25:13

family. Joe

1:25:20

accepted Bill's gift that kind of had strings

1:25:22

attached or at least in his perfect world it

1:25:24

would have but he couldn't hold her

1:25:26

to it and Joe took the benefit. What would you

1:25:29

have done in her place? It's

1:25:31

an ethical question that people will have different views

1:25:33

on but at the end of the day Joe

1:25:35

and her kids live a more financially stable life

1:25:37

than they would have otherwise and I'm

1:25:39

sure Bill's happy about that but

1:25:41

had his offer been more altruistic in the first

1:25:43

place their friendship would have survived

1:25:46

and that would have been nice. You

1:25:48

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I Got My New Rack, is back. When

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Thanks to Suzy Lark and Luna Patel, Break Mask of

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