28:04

Do you find yourself caught up doing chores or

28:06

being distracted by your phone late at night when

28:08

you know you should be unwinding? Me too. But

28:11

I've found a solution I'd like to share with you. The

28:14

Hatch Restore 2 helps me

28:16

unwind with dreamscapes, sleep stories,

28:18

music, and more, transporting

28:20

me to a restful mindset. It helps

28:23

me clear out all the distractions, giving

28:25

me the best night's sleep. And now,

28:27

the secret room has teamed up with

28:29

Hatch. Hatch is offering you up to

28:31

20% off your Hatch

28:33

device purchase and free shipping at

28:36

hatch.co slash secret. The

28:38

Hatch Restore 2 is a sleek, well-built

28:41

device. Unlike a traditional alarm, it pairs

28:43

a soft, glowing light with sleep sounds

28:45

to relax me to slumber, turning my

28:47

bedroom into a serene, spa-like space. I

28:50

get up early, and I love Hatch's

28:52

innovative sunrise feature a lot. It

28:55

wakes me up, peacefully pairing gentle sounds with

28:57

a soft sunrise effect that gradually changes color

28:59

and gets brighter. It simulates your natural sleep

29:02

patterns, and when I get up, I feel

29:04

rested and ready to take on my day.

29:07

I am so glad to say bye-bye to jarring

29:09

alarm sounds. Hatch has put over 5 million

29:12

people to sleep, we're talking babies to adults,

29:14

and 75% of users

29:17

say that their sleep has improved since using a Hatch

29:19

device. And now, as listeners of

29:21

the secret room, Hatch is offering you up to

29:23

20% off and free shipping

29:25

on your Hatch device purchase. Visit

29:28

hatch.co/secret for up

29:31

to 20% off

29:33

hatch.co/secret. Check the show

29:35

notes. And

29:44

we're back with Lizzie's decision. Will

29:47

she accept the American's proposal for an open

29:49

thing? Here we go. which

30:00

is probably silly on my part, but I

30:02

said yes. Which kind

30:04

of made it easier for me because then I thought,

30:06

okay, well I can still see John. It's not like

30:08

we are anything anyway. It's probably, you know, we're just

30:11

gonna be friends, but I don't have to feel weird

30:13

about going for a coffee with him because that's totally

30:15

allowed. Yeah, no problem. So.

30:18

So you got your hall pass. Exactly.

30:23

So I went for a coffee with John

30:25

and immediately, and immediately I think because I

30:27

felt like I was unavailable, I was with

30:29

someone else, I was suddenly so much less

30:32

nervous. I was able to open up a

30:34

lot more and I just felt a

30:36

whole lot more at ease because suddenly the pressure was off.

30:39

Well good. So that was really nice. So

30:41

we had this coffee, it was really lovely.

30:43

And we basically said, we will keep in

30:45

touch. And we started talking a lot

30:47

more than we had the year before.

30:50

Very, you know, platonic, but speaking often.

30:52

How long was the second date? The

30:55

second date was also a good,

30:58

a good, a

31:00

good four hours or so. Again, I had to

31:03

leave. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Right,

31:05

okay. So things have not cooled down. You still

31:07

have this insane chemistry. Yes. Great

31:10

attraction between you. And during the course

31:12

of this conversation, did

31:14

other relationships come up? Did you tell

31:17

him about your long distance, open relationship?

31:19

I did. You did. How did

31:21

he react to that? He took it

31:23

in his stride. I think he's very good

31:26

at doing that. And he kind of said, oh, okay. I

31:28

was, I was wondering if, you

31:30

know, the reason you had gone overseas was,

31:32

you know, to see someone. And

31:35

I kind of explained to him the complexities

31:37

of it and how I just wanted to

31:39

be exclusive, et cetera. Cause I did. And

31:42

that was that. And I thought, okay, well, we'll be

31:44

friends. And did he tell you about

31:46

any relationship he was in? No, I

31:49

can't remember how, but it became clear

31:52

that he was single, had been

31:54

single for quite a while. And

31:56

then I suppose something

31:59

changed. Yeah. What

32:02

do you mean? Well,

32:04

not with John, but with the person I was with.

32:06

Okay. So we'll call him Nathan, the guy

32:08

who I was with. The open relationship

32:10

American? Yes. Okay.

32:13

So, you know, if you're in a long

32:15

distance relationship, you need to have communication. That's

32:17

the whole point. Otherwise, what are you doing?

32:21

And I wasn't getting that.

32:23

So I asked him, you know,

32:25

can we talk at least once a

32:28

day? And by talk, I just meant

32:30

a line on WhatsApp. It was not

32:32

a high expectation. And

32:34

he responded really badly to that.

32:37

And he basically said, yeah, he

32:39

told me that feeling

32:42

like he had to talk to me every day.

32:44

I felt like a chore. Oh, gosh. Yeah.

32:47

I know. And he told me that he

32:50

thinks it sounds like I need to go on a

32:52

date and get some attention. Wow.

32:54

Okay. So do you call this

32:56

a relationship at all? Exactly.

32:58

Exactly. Mm hmm. When

33:01

he said that, I already mentally checked out

33:03

because, you know, that's just

33:05

not, it's not okay. In

33:07

your secret, you called it a situationship. Yes.

33:11

Well, yes. I

33:13

think at the time I was calling it a relationship.

33:15

And when he made that comment, I realized that it

33:17

wasn't. Actually I was in a situationship.

33:20

Oh my goodness. Okay. Yeah.

33:22

And that's what I had thought I was in. So

33:25

did you shut it down or just sometimes it takes

33:27

a little time to wind these things down? Exactly.

33:30

Unfortunately, I haven't mastered the art

33:32

of leaving exactly when I should.

33:35

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's right. So I was willing to

33:37

kind of give it a little bit more time. But

33:40

funnily enough, John messaged me that

33:42

day just checking in saying it had been about a

33:44

month since we'd last met up. And he just said,

33:46

hey, I'm checking in. How are you doing? And

33:49

I thought, huh, you

33:52

know, Nathan told me to go on a date. And

33:55

here is John wanting to talk

33:58

to me, wanting to ask how I am. which

34:00

is not what Nathan wants to do. Yeah,

34:02

John will WhatsApp you every day. No problem.

34:04

No, exactly, exactly. So

34:07

we scheduled to meet up,

34:09

and we ended up going

34:11

for dinner a week later.

34:14

That, I think, was from that

34:16

evening, it just, oh,

34:19

it was great. He

34:21

did kind of subtly

34:23

ask me, because he knew that

34:25

it was an open thing. And I had told

34:28

John that I just wasn't a polygamous kind of

34:30

person. And he was kind of

34:32

asking, well, do you still feel that way? Because

34:34

I was kind of telling him about the problems

34:36

with Nathan. And I said, sometimes

34:39

I think maybe I should just experiment with

34:41

this whole polygamous thing. I don't know. Which

34:45

I was kind of throwing out there as a hint. And

34:49

we had a great night. At

34:51

the end, we hugged, and I

34:53

felt like he pulled away very quickly when we

34:56

later spoke about that. He felt like I pulled

34:58

away very quickly. So I think we were both

35:00

just very shy. But from that

35:02

moment on, we started talking every

35:04

day, nonstop. And within two

35:06

days, it just became

35:08

very obvious that we were

35:10

talking kind of less platonically

35:12

than before. How long was

35:15

that date that you just told me about? Oh,

35:17

wow. Also, five hours. My

35:20

goodness. OK, so yeah. Yeah. There

35:22

is no question that there is an attraction here, but

35:24

you guys are just kind of slow to make

35:27

this thing official. Yeah, really, really

35:29

shy. So shy.

35:32

So did you go on another date? We did.

35:34

The next week, we went

35:36

on yet another date. And this one

35:38

was seven hours. We just sat at

35:40

the same coffee shop from 5 PM

35:43

until about 11 or 12. And

35:46

we just spoke and spoke and spoke.

35:49

And I told him that day

35:52

that I had had a crush on him

35:55

for pretty much a year. And he was

35:57

absolutely shocked. Then

35:59

I came back. We

48:00

also spent a lot of

48:02

time, honestly, just sitting, talking in the

48:04

car, like watching the sunset and stuff,

48:06

because at the time,

48:08

it's another long

48:10

story short, but he had

48:12

had to move back in with his

48:14

family to take care of, yeah, his

48:16

family. That's his thing. He

48:19

takes care of people, I think, to a fault, to be honest with

48:21

you, bit of a rescue complex

48:24

and a hero complex, savior complex. There we go. I

48:27

got there eventually. I didn't have a

48:29

place of my own at the time.

48:32

I was, yeah, staying with my family as well.

48:35

There wasn't really anywhere private for us

48:37

to go. So like,

48:39

even when we were making out and stuff, it was

48:41

in the car at night. Like

48:45

teenagers. Oh gosh. I

48:48

know. It was ridiculous. But fun. Would

48:51

you say that you really opened yourself up

48:53

to him? Oh, definitely. Honestly,

48:55

he became my best friend. I

48:58

could tell him anything. I

49:00

know that I can and do trust

49:02

him, and I know he felt the same about me.

49:05

Like he told me things. He said that he's, you

49:07

know, and he told one other person in his life.

49:10

And that was what was so

49:12

special. I think very quickly he

49:14

and I developed a really just

49:16

comfortable, open, honest relationship.

49:19

And something, I

49:21

think, I don't know how or why, but we

49:23

were both drawn to each other despite being

49:27

from very different backgrounds, very different people. And it

49:29

was just, it was special. It

49:31

was really special. It's nice to hear

49:34

you use the word relationship. Yeah. Well,

49:37

yeah. Not

49:39

relationship, sorry. It's a not relationship

49:41

because it's secret. Yeah. And

49:44

because, and because even though you

49:46

have freed yourself from your situationship

49:49

with your ex, he

49:51

is still in his complicationship

49:54

with his ex. Exactly.

49:57

Exactly. Which is... Yeah.

50:01

And you know, so for a while it was

50:03

really fun. And then suddenly

50:06

it wasn't so much fun anymore,

50:08

you know, because eventually sneaking around

50:10

gets old and you want

50:13

to be able to introduce him to

50:15

your family and you want

50:17

to be able to, you know, not

50:20

worry about his complicationship,

50:23

knowing that actually he's with someone and he

50:25

can still be there for her, etc., etc.

50:27

And it started to eat me up. How

50:30

much time did he spend with his ex? A

50:32

lot, a lot. He would see her a

50:35

few times a week. And is he

50:37

still in your class? Yes.

50:40

No, sorry. No, no, no. He was in

50:42

my class the year before. When he and

50:44

I were together, not together, I wasn't teaching

50:46

him at all. Okay.

50:49

But we did sneak around campus. But

50:52

he's still studying. Yes. He's still studying at

50:54

the university. Exactly. I mean, for example,

50:56

I had a shared office and

50:58

the one day I needed

51:00

to conduct kind of online

51:03

catch up meeting for students. And

51:06

so I had this office to myself. And so afterwards

51:08

I was like, you should come out here. And then

51:10

we made out in the office, which is really fun

51:12

because it's not something that I would usually do. Sounds

51:16

cool. And risky. Yeah.

51:18

That was fun. Well, that's exciting. Yeah.

51:21

Yeah. A few months go by, but

51:24

I'm sensing from the things that you've said that

51:28

you've had to have a conversation with him or

51:30

something to try to say, hey,

51:33

John, I want to bring a little more

51:35

definition to this relationship because it's not feeling

51:37

so good anymore. Right. So I

51:39

think I was so scared to

51:42

say something because even though I

51:44

knew, you know, he would never

51:46

intentionally hurt me. It's not like

51:48

he would react badly to that

51:50

conversation. But I knew that once

51:53

I asked him if the answer was no,

51:55

then I had to end it there. And

51:58

I was so terrified. of

52:00

losing that, that I stalled

52:03

for months. Well,

52:05

I'm sure you've got a great thing going. It feels wonderful. It's

52:09

like, is this the best relationship you've

52:11

ever had? Yeah, 100%. And that's

52:13

the most ridiculous thing, is

52:16

that this not relationship

52:18

was the best relationship that I

52:20

ever had. Right. Because I'll

52:22

be honest, I don't have a great track record with

52:25

choosing the best kinds of guys. And

52:27

he was so lovely and so

52:30

kind. It's

52:32

just got this one thing

52:35

that is just like almost

52:37

insurmountable. Absolutely. Your conundrum is

52:40

if you tell John you

52:43

want to go public with your relationship, his

52:46

choice is if he's going to do that,

52:48

he's got to come clean to his ex.

52:51

Exactly. Which on the face of

52:53

it should not be a huge jump. Absolutely.

52:57

I understand she's been through trauma. Yes.

53:00

And I want to respect that. And we don't know what

53:02

kind of trauma it was. Yes. You

53:05

haven't shared that. No. But

53:07

at some point, it's been a decade since

53:09

they've broken up. Yes. At some point, he

53:11

should be allowed to evolve in

53:13

the development of his personal relationships, I would think. Absolutely.

53:16

As good of a person as he is,

53:18

because he really is. And

53:20

I don't mean to kind of try to theripy

53:22

as him, but I think that it's a bit

53:25

of an excuse. I think that he's actually terrified

53:27

to have another legitimate relationship. And so he has

53:29

kind of put this up as a convenient way

53:31

that he doesn't even see of keeping himself safe.

53:35

Truly, that's what I think. You have no

53:38

other explanation as to why he might

53:40

turn down your offer of a public relationship

53:42

other than he's just using his ex as

53:45

a safety blanket. Totally. And

53:47

I know it's easy to say, but

53:49

I know how much he cared about me. He

53:52

genuinely saw this as an impossibility to

53:54

be with me. Which I suppose I

53:56

should now talk about. Yeah, so it

53:59

came to a point... where I was crying a

54:01

lot, but I wasn't telling him about it.

54:03

You know, I was thinking about this all

54:05

the time. I was really anxious. It

54:07

wasn't fun anymore. And it came to a

54:09

point for the sake of my own mental

54:11

wellbeing. I knew, I had

54:13

to say it, because I was in agony. So I messaged

54:16

him one morning and I said to him, can

54:19

we have a conversation? It's nothing

54:21

scary. I'm just feeling really anxious and I need

54:24

to get something off my chest. When

54:26

you say nothing scary, that means it's scary.

54:30

No, good point. It's just better than we

54:32

should talk. You know, I hate that. Gosh,

54:35

Lizzie. OK, so did you meet for coffee

54:37

or? No, so at

54:39

the time I was

54:42

looking after my aunt's house.

54:45

I had the place to myself so we

54:47

could at least be there to have this

54:49

conversation. So he came by that evening and

54:51

I was so scared. And I said to

54:54

him, I was like, I'm so scared to

54:56

have this conversation. And he said

54:58

to me, just rip it off. I think he thought

55:00

that I wanted to end it. And

55:03

I said to him, I

55:05

really, really like you. I didn't tell him

55:07

I loved him, although I definitely did. And

55:10

I know he did too. You hadn't said these words. We

55:12

haven't said them, because that would make it too real.

55:15

I mean, he'd said it in other ways. Like

55:17

he'd said indirectly, like,

55:20

it sounds so cliche. But he had

55:22

said to me, like, you're so

55:24

good at making people fall in love with you. You know, things

55:26

like that. We hadn't said it to

55:29

each other directly. And I said

55:31

to him, but I can't

55:33

keep doing this the way

55:35

it is. I want

55:37

to be with you properly. And if we

55:39

can't, then I'm just getting more and more

55:41

invested. And essentially, I'm wasting

55:43

my time. And

55:47

he said to me, he said, I don't if

55:50

you understand how present she

55:54

is in my life. He

55:57

said, I know, for example, if you

1:10:00

and my time together with a

1:10:02

lot of yearning and a lot of longing. I

1:10:05

think people change quickly and we

1:10:08

aren't the same people who we were then. And

1:10:10

ultimately I don't know him anymore and he doesn't know

1:10:13

me anymore. And it's sad, but

1:10:17

that's okay. So that is my update. The

1:10:35

disappointment and heartbreak is palpable in Lizzie's

1:10:37

voice. And who among us has not been

1:10:39

there? She admires and loves a

1:10:41

man for qualities that ultimately keep them apart. And

1:10:44

that is the bittersweet irony in her story. Their

1:10:47

not birthday greetings mark the tacit end to

1:10:49

their not relationship. But

1:10:51

Lizzie will move on, heal her heart,

1:10:54

and find love elsewhere. That much

1:10:56

is for sure, and maybe that makes it all

1:10:58

okay. See pictures

1:11:01

of Lizzie and John on Facebook, X,

1:11:03

and Instagram. Just search at

1:11:05

SeekerOomPod. I'm

1:11:15

Suzy Lark and next week on

1:11:17

our premium show Unlocked, an unbelievable

1:11:19

yet all too real online scam

1:11:21

and its heartbreaking consequences. Hear

1:11:24

the harrowing tale of a 79-year-old mother who

1:11:27

believes she's in a relationship with none

1:11:30

other than country music star Kenny Chesney.

1:11:32

And fake Kenny wants mom's money.

1:11:35

It's a secret of love, trust,

1:11:37

and vulnerability in the digital age.

1:11:39

When you subscribe to our premium show The Seeker Room

1:11:42

Unlocked, you are supporting your favorite

1:11:44

indie podcast that could and getting a

1:11:46

little more Seeker Room in your life at the same time. Sounds

1:11:49

like a nice offer to me. And don't forget there

1:11:51

is a free trial. Unlocked

1:11:53

is available on Spotify, Apple

1:11:55

Podcasts, and at patreon.com/secretroom. You

1:11:58

can also support the podcast through Patreon. by taking

1:12:00

advantage of our sponsor codes, find

1:12:03

them at our website and in the show notes. And

1:12:06

while you're at secretroompod.com, you

1:12:08

can also submit your secret if you'd like to be on the

1:12:10

show. Production support

1:12:12

by Suzy Lark and Luna Patel. Our

1:12:14

music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. This

1:12:17

is the Secret Room, a podcast about the

1:12:19

stories no one ever tells. I'm

1:12:21

Ben Hamm.