0:00

Hi, Ben. My name is Hallie and my

0:02

secret is ten years ago. I read some

0:04

texts that have fundamentally changed how I see

0:07

my dad. I've shared my secret with my

0:09

sister and neither of us know what to do. Today

0:12

the secret room presents Dad's Text.

0:26

I remember conversations about how we

0:28

should never look at each other's

0:30

emails. You respect one another's privacy.

0:35

I'd like to thank BACE for supporting the secret room.

0:38

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0:46

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0:51

And thanks also to Home Chef. For a limited

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meals plus free dessert for life and of

0:59

course free shipping on your first box. Go

1:02

to homechef.com/secret. And

1:04

thanks to Aura, an all-in-one digital

1:06

safety solution. Go to aura.com/protection for

1:09

a 14-day trial plus a check of

1:11

your data to see if your personal

1:13

information has been leaked online. And

1:15

it's all for free. Hi

1:19

everyone and welcome to the secret room. I'm

1:21

your host Ben Ham. Have you ever

1:23

discovered someone else's secret by accident and then

1:25

have it become your own? Well if you

1:27

have, you'll have empathy for the situation Hallie

1:29

found herself in. The hidden truth

1:31

she stumbled on was her dad's and

1:33

it had ramifications for her whole family. When

1:37

we're done, we'll find out if she wishes she had never known.

1:39

It's a deeply personal story of

1:42

family bonds, loyalty and love and

1:44

how to navigate it all when the truth just hurts. It's

1:48

time for Hallie's secret. Hi

1:52

Hallie and welcome to the secret room. Yeah,

1:54

I'm excited to be here. I'm a little nervous.

1:57

You discovered a shocking secret. Your dad was a little

1:59

nervous. keeping from your family during a

2:01

very emotional time, right? Yes,

2:04

I did. And now it's your secret too?

2:06

Mm-hmm. It's been a long time and

2:08

now we don't know what to do with it. Can you tell

2:10

me what your parents were like? I

2:13

think you could say I probably had

2:15

a pretty idyllic upbringing. I was raised

2:17

in Houston. Both of my

2:19

parents were in the medical field and

2:22

worked really hard and instilled those kind

2:25

of values. And my sister and I,

2:27

really hard working. I mean, my dad

2:30

was definitely somebody who wanted to be

2:32

seen as someone who was sophisticated and

2:34

he carried himself in that way. My

2:36

dad is really well-read, well-traveled, a bit

2:39

of an epicurean, I guess you could

2:41

say. Really good at having

2:43

conversations with others and making other people

2:45

feel comfortable. He's really generous with money,

2:47

wine, all those kind of things. It's

2:49

fun to hang out with my dad

2:51

because he's generous with all that

2:53

stuff. My mom was also really kind,

2:56

but more of a listener. So

2:58

she wasn't somebody who kind of took up the whole room. She

3:01

was just kind of would be there to listen to you.

3:04

But she was always a little more, I guess

3:06

you could say, mysterious. I didn't always know how

3:08

she felt about things. I kind of was a

3:10

lot more curious about her as a child. I

3:13

wanted to be close to her though and I

3:15

really loved and adored her. My mom was somebody

3:17

who I just couldn't get enough of. She was,

3:19

when I think about her, I think I just

3:21

wanted to crawl into her skin. I

3:24

just wanted to be with her all the

3:26

time. And was

3:28

she pretty driven at work also? Yeah,

3:30

she worked at the same medical facility for

3:32

over 35 years. She

3:34

started there as a teenager, as a

3:36

volunteer. Oh, wow. Yeah.

3:39

So she had been there for her whole life, was

3:41

very devoted to her work and to

3:44

the facility. It was also

3:46

a little unusual for her to work. Where

3:48

I grew up, most moms were stay at

3:50

home moms. That kind of just was a

3:52

little different for us growing up is

3:54

that I had a mom who worked so she

3:56

wasn't always able to be the one that

3:58

was doing pickups or. doing all

4:00

the stay-at-home-long things because she was working.

4:03

Your story, Hallie, really starts on

4:06

a pivot your family made in 2009. Yeah.

4:10

Can you tell me how old you were and what happened?

4:13

Yeah. I was about 20. You

4:16

were out of the house? Yeah. I

4:18

was out of the house. I was in college. But

4:21

if we were all a member, that was at the end

4:23

of a major economic

4:25

worldwide crisis. A lot

4:27

of dads I knew growing up were

4:30

getting laid off and everybody's lives were

4:32

changing pretty dramatically and rapidly,

4:34

including my own. I was away

4:36

in college. I had grown up

4:38

in my childhood home my whole life, but

4:41

my dad had been terminated from his position

4:43

that he had been at for the last

4:45

20-something years. That must have been hard. Yeah.

4:47

It was hard. It

4:50

was hard and it was

4:53

really uncertain about what we're going

4:55

to go next because he was at an age where

4:57

he definitely had more time to work. He wasn't ready

4:59

to retire yet. It brought some uncertainty to our family

5:01

about what we were going to do next. Was

5:04

your mom able to support the family? Yeah.

5:06

Luckily, her position changed a

5:08

bit. They re-categorized her

5:10

position, but she was working at

5:13

the same facility that she'd always been

5:15

working at. Yeah. She was never making as

5:18

much as my dad, but at that point, my sister and I

5:20

are both out of the house. They

5:22

really just have themselves to think about. She

5:25

was supporting the family at that point. Okay.

5:27

Good. The situation was not dire, but

5:29

I imagine your father still wanted to get back

5:32

to work. Yes. Was

5:34

he able to? He was. After

5:37

about a year of being at

5:39

home and trying to figure

5:41

out what he was going to do next, and he

5:44

got offered a job in Seattle. Your parents

5:46

lived in Houston. Seattle is quite far. Yeah.

5:52

Yeah. Your mom's had a stable job.

5:54

Low these many years, cradle to grave

5:56

job, it seems. How did

5:59

they handle that job? Yeah,

6:01

it was definitely kind of out of left field

6:03

because, you know, like I said, my mom was

6:05

born and raised in Houston, never left. She

6:07

never even left the state for college. This

6:09

was her home. And so him

6:12

getting a job at that point in

6:14

their lives was definitely out of state,

6:16

was definitely hard pill to swallow.

6:19

Did you know he was applying out of state? She did,

6:21

as far as I know. I mean, I was in college,

6:23

but I think she did, but you know, they

6:26

maybe put her head in the sand, but he

6:28

gets this job offer and he

6:31

takes it. I'm very close with my mom

6:33

at this point. And it was a question of whether

6:35

or not she was going because they owned another property

6:37

in Houston. So she could have stayed and kept working

6:39

and I guess they kind of could have done a

6:41

long distance thing or I don't know. That's hard on a

6:44

marriage. Yeah. But I

6:46

was surprised when my mom did say like, yeah,

6:49

that she was going, she was going to leave

6:51

her job and they were going to sell my

6:53

childhood home and they were going to start

6:55

a new life in Seattle. Yeah. Big

6:57

move. It was. Did

6:59

she have job prospects in Seattle? No. Hmm.

7:02

So they're basically trading one job for another. Essentially.

7:06

They're coming out even. Yeah. I'm

7:08

assuming maybe she thought she would just do something different

7:10

or she would kind of have a more flexible

7:12

job or this is her opportunity to kind of,

7:14

I don't know, not work. I'm not really sure

7:16

what was kind of going on in her mind

7:18

at that point, but all I know is that

7:20

she had agreed to leave

7:23

her job and sell the house and move.

7:25

Were you concerned for them at all or

7:27

did it all just seem par for the course?

7:29

That's a good question then because

7:32

it's, you know, like reflecting

7:34

now, was I concerned for them? I

7:36

think a little, but

7:39

I'm also 20, 21. So

7:41

I'm very self-absorbed in this stage in

7:43

my life. And for me, the

7:45

biggest stressor right now is like that

7:47

I'm going to be graduating college and leaving

7:49

all my friends and behind and figuring

7:51

out what's next for me. And so I kind

7:53

of was like, when my parents said that they were

7:56

going to move, I was like, oh, okay, great. I don't want

7:58

to go back home anyway. I hate it there. Right.

8:00

You've got your own life to live. Yeah.

8:03

And they're living their life and that's the way it

8:05

is. Yeah. So

8:07

where are you at at this point? So they

8:10

moved to Seattle and I'm around, you know, I'm

8:12

coming up on my senior year of college.

8:15

Everything's great. I'm living my life.

8:17

College is a really good time

8:19

for me. And, you know, there's a little bit

8:21

of a distance between us. I know what's going on. I

8:23

know that they're kind of cleaning out the house and moving,

8:25

but I guess maybe I'm also not

8:27

really fully processing it because like you said, I'm living

8:29

my own life and I'm, I'm

8:31

not really sad about selling my childhood

8:34

home at this point. I'm just ready

8:36

for the next chapter. And I

8:38

had had plans to go to graduate school in Portland.

8:40

So it was actually was going to work out pretty

8:42

well that we were going to be a bit closer.

8:44

Oh, that's great. To each

8:46

other anyway. How is your mom handling the

8:48

move? Because she's the one without

8:50

a job. She's kind of, yeah, I

8:53

would think it would be a little bit unsettling to

8:55

leave your job of 35 years and

8:58

go to a beautiful city like Seattle, but

9:00

not really have any friends or I don't

9:03

want to say purpose, but you know, no job

9:05

to anchor you there. For sure. I mean, I

9:07

think that I wasn't realizing that

9:09

at the time, but I think she was

9:12

completely overwhelmed and in over her head, you

9:14

know, they bought a house in Seattle. So I think that

9:16

that was sort of a project of, okay, now let's unpack

9:19

35 years worth of belongings

9:21

in this house. Let's decorate the house.

9:23

Let's, you know, and it's a new

9:25

city to explore. So I'm assuming my dad thought, well, now

9:27

she can have all this time to sort of explore

9:29

the city at her leisure and unpack and

9:32

do what she wants to do. And you

9:34

know, I'm not too far. And my sister

9:36

also had plans to kind of relocate

9:38

to Portland too. So it all sort of seemed

9:41

like great. We're all going to be within close

9:43

distance of one another, which hadn't been the case

9:45

in a long time because my sister's older than

9:47

me. And she was also out

9:49

of living out at the state for

9:51

college. So yeah, I think she was

9:53

definitely overwhelmed, but I know that on

9:56

the outside, she didn't really show it

9:58

because it was. exciting chapter. And

10:01

to be honest, my dad got a job and a lot of people

10:03

were not as lucky. So did you have a

10:05

chance to visit your parents after their

10:08

move? Yeah. So since I was

10:10

kind of so close, it was exciting.

10:12

And I went to go down to

10:14

the house and see how everything was

10:16

moving along. And that was when I

10:18

realized that this was

10:20

a bad decision to

10:23

have moved. Why do

10:25

you say that? Yeah. My

10:27

dad went to work immediately. So he

10:29

didn't really give himself

10:31

any time to help with the transition

10:34

and being with my

10:36

mom and showing her around and unpacking

10:39

and any of that. He was straight at work

10:41

right away. And the house

10:43

was not unpacked, not even close

10:45

to being unpacked. And this is

10:47

like months after they've already been

10:49

living in there. Just boxes everywhere.

10:52

And I could tell that my

10:55

mom was not in

10:57

a good place. Trying to think

10:59

of the best way to describe it. I

11:01

could tell that she was deeply unhappy and overwhelmed

11:04

and regretful. Regretful

11:07

about the move? Yeah.

11:11

Did you have a chance to talk to her about it? Yeah.

11:14

I mean, my mom and I had that kind of

11:16

relationship. And so I kind of was

11:18

like, oh, we're asking her about it. And

11:20

they complained about each other to me. So

11:22

definitely complaining about things about my dad and

11:24

about the house and the city and how

11:26

she was too expensive and she didn't like

11:28

it and all the things. But

11:31

it felt different this time, the

11:33

way she was complaining. It wasn't like

11:36

how I was used to growing up. It felt

11:38

like something was really not right. And I could

11:41

tell that she wasn't also really taking

11:43

care of herself. Just regular sort

11:45

of maintenance of what moms would

11:47

do, like getting their hair done or

11:49

their nails done or washing their face

11:51

and things like that. That seemed to

11:54

be taking a back seat and definitely

11:56

was a tip off for me. That's something looking

11:58

good. You're seeing. some red

12:00

flags. Did you talk to your dad

12:02

about it? Yeah, I

12:04

mean, you know, when you got home from work, you know,

12:07

I would be there, we'd have dinner together as a

12:09

family, like we would do and I would sort of

12:11

mention like, you know, she's yeah, she doesn't seem happy

12:13

blah, blah, blah. And it was always kind of dismissed

12:15

like, Oh, your mom, I know that

12:18

my mom has a history of depression. And

12:20

my dad definitely was not the most supportive

12:22

person in regards to this. So I think

12:24

it was just kind of dismissed as like,

12:26

you know, there's that depression again, but there

12:28

was not a lot of effort to wrap

12:30

his arms around her

12:32

and help her through this transition. That

12:34

would be the job of a good partner, I

12:37

would think. Yeah, especially with

12:39

such a crazy move. And like

12:41

we've said, she left

12:43

everything she's known. Houston

12:45

was the only city she had ever known.

12:47

And this facility that she worked

12:49

at this medical facility, she worked at was

12:51

the only place she's ever worked since she

12:54

was 17 years old. Right. So it was

12:56

a lot. It was a big shift for

12:58

her. And while this shift should have been,

13:01

I think from my dad's perspective, exciting, it

13:03

was scary. And I don't think that she

13:05

was kind of met with that empathy. And

13:07

how was your dad settling into his new job and

13:09

the city? You know, my dad

13:12

is very has high energy,

13:15

likes life, I think, overall.

13:17

So there's Ward of Eve or whatever you

13:19

want to say. So he was into it,

13:21

you know? Yeah, he was like, all

13:24

right, look at this new restaurant. He was

13:26

enjoying himself. He was taking him to the

13:28

sites and was kind of just

13:30

focusing on all the positives. And you know,

13:32

I think in his defense, my mom often

13:34

would compare everything to Houston and be like,

13:36

well, yeah, but it's not like Houston. It's

13:38

not. And so that got to be like

13:40

a little bit of a drag. I'm sure. Did

13:42

you have any sense about how their relationship

13:44

was fair? You know,

13:47

their relationship my whole life

13:49

was never super positive.

13:52

And at one point, when I was

13:54

15, they had actually separated and then it

13:56

had gotten better. And so I

13:59

thought that the move them moving together

14:01

to this new city was a sign

14:03

that they were committed. So while I

14:05

saw that there was definitely some stressors

14:08

going on and that it was strained,

14:10

my impression was, well, they made this

14:12

huge move together. And so obviously they're

14:14

committed and this is just a difficult

14:17

time. So they'll get through it. Yeah.

14:19

They always have in the past. Right.

14:21

Yeah. I can tell you're very

14:23

close with your mom. I'm sure you keep

14:25

talking to her. You're not living that far

14:27

away. Mm-hmm. How

14:30

do your conversations go? I'm checking in with my

14:32

mom a lot. And one night

14:34

we're talking on the phone and kind of asked

14:36

her how she was doing. If she was feeling

14:38

better, if she got around to doing all of

14:40

these things that were on her to-do list. And

14:44

I kind of just straight out asked her. The

14:48

life or death question, Halle put to her mom

14:51

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Check the show notes. And

16:38

we're back with Halle's secret. If

16:40

she was having suicidal thoughts. Oh my

16:42

gosh. Yeah. And she said she was.

16:45

Wow. So you really keyed in on her

16:47

depression. I mean, to ask somebody that is,

16:50

I mean, I think you really have to feel it to

16:52

ask it. I knew she wasn't well.

16:55

And I had been getting

16:57

that feedback from others a little bit.

17:00

One of her best friends had called me a few

17:02

times to tell me that, you know, my mom wasn't doing

17:04

well. And at this point I'm like 22, 23. So of

17:08

course it's weird to ask your mom, are

17:10

you having suicidal thoughts? Yeah, that's terrible. I

17:12

think I thought better

17:15

to ask than to not ask. Right. And

17:17

so I felt empowered and felt like, let

17:19

me just ask her and see, you know,

17:21

how she'll respond because I could tell she was

17:23

in a desperate place. Well, that

17:26

must've been terrifying. Yeah, it

17:28

was terrifying because I guess, even

17:30

though I asked her that I

17:32

was probably, I'm hoping that she was going

17:34

to say, Oh no, I'm fine.

17:37

Don't worry about me. Yeah. Said she

17:39

was. So next morning I showed

17:41

up, I dropped everything that I was doing. I was in graduate

17:43

school. I showed up and I went to Seattle.

17:46

Oh, fabulous. What did you find? She

17:48

was not doing well. That her condition was worsening,

17:51

you know, more than I thought, but she

17:53

was sort of pretending that it wasn't. And then

17:55

that was kind of getting weird. I

17:57

knew that my mom had been seeing a psychiatrist in Seattle

18:00

and luckily she had had

18:02

an appointment that next

18:04

day with the psychiatrist and so me thinking

18:07

I can have this all figured out and squirt

18:09

it away I kind of thought like okay I'll

18:11

just go to that appointment with

18:13

her and talk to her psychiatrist and this

18:15

is a new psychiatrist so maybe he

18:18

just doesn't really know her and that

18:20

maybe this will all get resolved because

18:22

somebody just needs my input. Great

18:25

and so you went you went

18:27

to the appointment? Yeah I went

18:29

to the appointment with her and

18:31

it didn't go well. What

18:33

happened? The

18:36

psychiatrist had recommended that

18:38

she seek

18:40

hospitalization and I

18:43

was on board with that because I felt really

18:48

overwhelmed at this point with how

18:51

to care for her from a distance and how

18:53

to help her and really felt

18:55

like this was out of my scope you know

18:57

I'm 23 and so like I don't really know

19:00

what my mom needs so

19:02

yeah I'm agreeing with the psychiatrist and the psychiatrist

19:05

is kind of like yeah you need to do

19:07

this and he tells us

19:09

to go back down to the ER and check in

19:11

and everything will be fine. Goodness

19:15

and so did you mobilize your dad and

19:17

your sister too? My dad went to work

19:20

that day. Okay so

19:22

it doesn't sound like the right thing to do. Reflecting

19:25

now I'm like yeah that didn't make

19:27

sense but at the time it made

19:29

sense because I showed up I

19:31

felt like I was the one that showed up unexpectedly.

19:33

He was thankful that

19:36

I came because yes things with my mom weren't

19:38

going well and he recognized that but well

19:40

I have more commitments in the morning that

19:42

I can't just cancel last minute and so it

19:44

was sort of deemed that I would handle

19:47

this part. I'll take her to the psychiatrist and

19:49

I'll do that so yeah. So 23

19:51

year old you is in charge of

19:53

your mom's mental health? Pretty

19:57

much I guess and I thought

19:59

okay This makes sense. I'll do

20:01

this. I've got this under control. It's

20:03

a lot. I felt a little anxious about

20:05

it, but it was a lot. Yeah. I

20:08

mean, good for you for rising to the

20:10

challenge and taking care of your mom. Yeah.

20:12

Thank you. Yeah. And

20:14

so does your sister come to town too? Or?

20:18

So yeah, my sister's in the background, you

20:20

know, I'm keeping her updated on the

20:22

things that my mom has been saying and

20:24

doing. And so anyway,

20:26

when I tried to hospitalize my mom, that

20:28

plan foiled. We went to the ER. She,

20:31

my mom was pretty much kind of walking

20:33

out of the hospital, pretending like she didn't

20:35

need to go and pretending like she didn't

20:37

hear what the psychiatrist had just said. Okay.

20:40

Was a voluntary check-in? Yeah,

20:43

it was a voluntary check-in and. So

20:45

she's not having it. She's not having it. No. And

20:47

I'm calling my sister. I'm begging, you know, I'm

20:49

crying. I'm begging my mom to talk to my

20:51

sister. Maybe my sister can somehow talk some sense

20:53

into her over the phone. My

20:55

mom's just like pacing around the lobby of the hospital,

20:59

pretending to talk to my sister on the phone, but

21:01

she's not really. And I

21:03

mean, I'm, I'm the size

21:05

of my mom. So, and again, I'm also,

21:09

you know, cautious about making a scene. We're in

21:11

the lobby of this hospital in a major city

21:13

and I'm visibly

21:16

crying, but I'm also kind of like, what am

21:18

I supposed to do? Like put my hands on

21:20

my mom and restrain her and, you know, force

21:22

her behind the doors of, you know, it

21:24

was a weird position to be in a

21:26

power shift, obviously. And you never want

21:29

to hospitalize somebody against their

21:31

will either. That felt very

21:34

demoralizing. So

21:36

she really didn't

21:38

want to go and we didn't go and we walked back home.

21:44

And so the next day my sister came. Was

21:47

your sister able to convince your mom

21:49

to go in? Well, so

21:51

my sister came and then we all sat down

21:54

as a family and, and

21:56

told her that we wanted her to get help and that it

21:58

was okay to get help. And

22:00

she was still not too keen on

22:02

it, but she agreed with all of

22:05

us there. And

22:07

we did. We brought her to the hospital then

22:09

the next day as a family and

22:12

she was hospitalized. Okay. This

22:14

is good. It felt like a

22:17

step in the right direction. Okay. It's

22:19

like I kind of thought, okay, she's getting help

22:21

and this is the end of my semester for

22:24

me in grad school. So I needed to get

22:26

back and finish some papers and some other things.

22:28

And that was also very important to my dad.

22:30

He didn't like while he appreciated me coming. He

22:33

didn't like that. I sort of neglected

22:35

my responsibilities. So

22:38

I kind of thought, okay, she's here. She's

22:40

in the hospital. My dad will take over

22:42

from here and I've got to finish out

22:44

the semester. I mean, it

22:47

all makes sense. You've got

22:49

a 10 tier scholastic pursuits and

22:51

your dad is her husband and should

22:54

be able to take care of her.

22:57

Yeah. You're back

22:59

in Portland. Your sister's back to her

23:01

home too? Yeah. Okay.

23:04

And so how does hospitalization go for your mom? So

23:06

I can't talk to her while she's in the

23:09

hospital, but I'm hoping that she's getting what she

23:11

needs and maybe it's a medication reset. I

23:13

just want her to be better. I talked

23:16

to my dad, I think a couple of days

23:18

later. He said that hospitalization did

23:20

nothing and that she had left after a

23:22

couple of days against medical advice. He

23:25

said that nothing happened after two days. That's not very

23:27

long. I think he was

23:29

just kind of like, eh, no, you know, that

23:32

didn't work. But he was expecting her to

23:34

recover in two days. You

23:38

know, I don't know what he was expecting. I'm

23:40

just bowled over. Yeah, I don't know.

23:42

I'm very surprised. Yeah.

23:45

You know, when you put it like that, then it is. Yeah,

23:49

I don't know what his expectations were if

23:51

he realized that this was going to be

23:53

a long journey, but I think

23:55

that she also maybe wasn't happy

23:58

to be there. And

24:00

he didn't want her to be

24:03

there if she wasn't wanting to be

24:05

there either, I guess. It's a difficult

24:07

situation, no doubt. So she left the

24:09

hospital and went back home. So

24:12

yes, she leaves the hospital, she goes back to the

24:14

house that they live in together. And basically everything just

24:16

goes back to the way it was. It's kind of

24:18

what my dad was saying on the phone. That didn't

24:20

do the trick. That didn't do anything. My

24:23

dad's kind of increasing his drinking at

24:25

this time. So when I'm talking to

24:29

him, I don't really feel like

24:31

he's like a reliable narrator, I

24:33

guess, of what's happening. And

24:36

my mom is not being

24:38

fully honest with me, you know, because I

24:40

think she's a little uneasy about us trying

24:43

to get her more help. She kind of

24:45

wants to pretend that everything's OK when it's

24:47

so clearly not. I

24:49

also feel kind of really at a loss

24:52

at this point because I thought that hospitalization

24:54

was going to be the answer. And to

24:56

know it was so hard to

24:58

get to that point for it to get

25:01

there and then just flop like that was

25:03

really disheartening for me. How

25:05

disappointing. So I mean, she's not getting the

25:07

help she needs at home. So

25:09

is her condition worsening? She's

25:12

not. She's not getting the help she

25:14

needs. She's getting worse. My dad's going

25:17

to work. My dad is pretending, I

25:19

guess. It's not as bad as it

25:21

is. But ultimately, I think he realizes

25:23

that her condition is not improving. So

25:26

he sends her back to Houston. And

25:29

what is she going to do there? I'm

25:33

clear, but I

25:35

guess, you know, she had

25:37

been missing Houston this whole time and wasn't

25:41

really adapting well to Seattle. So

25:43

her mom was also living 85

25:45

and, you know, she was living

25:48

independently, but probably still needed some,

25:50

you know, someone to check on

25:52

her. So I think he kind

25:55

of thought, go back and live with your mom

25:57

and get straightened out and come back

25:59

when you feel better. Okay. So she

26:01

goes back home to Houston to move in with

26:03

mom. Does she try to get her old job

26:05

back? No. That

26:08

ship is sailed. It's kind of sailed

26:10

because at this point,

26:12

my mom's also really embarrassed that

26:14

she's back, you know, like the

26:16

medical facility through her, this huge

26:18

going away, playing, you know, a

26:21

celebration and chapter. And then to

26:23

kind of come back with her tail in

26:25

between her legs, basically less than a year

26:28

later, it's really, I

26:30

get it. I get it. So she just makes

26:32

a quiet return to Houston. Yeah. And moves in

26:34

with mom. Yeah. And

26:36

mom must've been terribly worried about your

26:38

mom. She was. I'm

26:41

getting phone calls from people about my

26:44

mom and I'm not really putting it

26:46

together. How bad it is. Like

26:48

I got a phone call at one point from

26:50

my grandma before she moved back, telling me that,

26:53

you know, did you hear from your mom? Have

26:55

you heard from your mom? She's not answering the

26:57

phone. And I was kind of wondering, like, why

26:59

are people calling me about this? Why is everybody

27:01

freaking out? Like, I just didn't really understand it.

27:03

But at that point it made sense that my

27:06

mom moved in with her mom because she's aging

27:08

and somebody kind of needed to be there to

27:10

oversee her care a little bit. Yeah.

27:13

Yeah. So they're good for each other. How does

27:15

that go? I mean, goes as

27:18

well as it can when you're living with like an 85 year old,

27:21

you know, I mean, I don't think that there's a

27:23

lot going on. She's living the life of an

27:26

elderly person, which was maybe not really good for

27:28

her and her mental health. So

27:30

what is going on in your life at this time?

27:33

So at this point I'm, I've completed

27:35

graduate school and I am

27:37

getting a job actually

27:40

in Seattle. Great. Tell me

27:42

about your job in Seattle. I

27:45

get a job in the same

27:47

medical facility that my dad is working

27:49

at. That's not

27:51

by coincidence. So that ended

27:53

up happening. And I was

27:55

excited about it. It was, it was kind of hard

27:57

to find a job at this point. The economy is

27:59

still sort of. recovering and so I was

28:01

grateful that I was given that opportunity and I

28:04

move in with my dad

28:06

and think like okay you know now we're

28:08

working at the same place. I still

28:10

have hope that this is all kind

28:12

of gonna get better right I mean I have hope

28:14

that my mom's gonna come back and now I'm living

28:16

in the same city as my parents and this will

28:18

be great. You're living in the

28:20

same city as your dad. As my dad and my

28:22

hope is that my mom will be back yeah. Wow

28:26

okay so how did it go living with dad? Yeah.

28:28

I would think that might be a little bit awkward.

28:30

It didn't

28:33

it didn't go well the adjustment to living

28:35

with your parents again I guess for me

28:37

was not a smooth one and

28:40

then we're also working at the same place

28:42

and I felt like a kid and one

28:44

could expect. Yeah there's a lot of togetherness.

28:47

A lot of togetherness. I couldn't be an

28:49

adult in a new city so I

28:52

quickly found a roommate situation

28:54

and I moved out. Okay great how far

28:56

away was that? Down the street.

28:58

Down the street okay. So

29:01

you're still pretty close to dad but

29:04

you're in a new living situation. Yeah.

29:06

I guess you're still in close communications

29:08

with him obviously. How is he communicating

29:10

to you about your mom's health? He's

29:13

not I mean at that point he's not

29:15

communicating to her and the only one that's

29:17

communicating with her. That must have been troublesome

29:19

for you because you know you're living in

29:21

Seattle I'm sure you're hoping that your mom's

29:24

gonna come back up. Yeah. But

29:26

when you get there you find that your

29:28

father's not really invested in the relationship. No

29:32

I mean yes it was disappointing to hear

29:34

that he wasn't actively involved in trying to

29:36

assist her and getting better he hadn't visited

29:38

her in Houston either at this point. I

29:41

guess I just kind of went with it

29:43

because I was used to being close to

29:45

my mom and sort of used to them

29:47

having a strained relationship. Yeah

29:50

so this is a lot to deal with. Where's

29:53

your sister at this point? She's actually

29:56

also in Portland. She moved thereafter kind

29:58

of I had left so she's close by. and

30:00

she's visiting and she's also kind of

30:02

like what's going on with mom again

30:06

assuming that this is between

30:08

my parents and I

30:11

guess they'll work it out at

30:13

their own pace. Yeah

30:16

and then Hallie we really get to the

30:19

heart of your secret right? Something happened. Something

30:23

that really shifted your worldview.

30:26

Yeah. An

30:31

unexpected discovery is about to change everything for

30:33

Hallie. Let's find out what it was

30:35

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Check the show notes. So

32:24

what happened to shift Hallie's worldview? Her

32:26

secret continues. So

32:36

my dad and I would commute to work

32:38

together at this point.

32:41

I'm dating my

32:43

boyfriend from college and we're long

32:45

distance and we break up.

32:48

I'm sorry. Yeah. And

32:50

I was really, I was really

32:53

heartbroken. I was really sad.

32:55

Um, and I was

32:57

crying all night and my

32:59

roommates mind you in this new house are

33:01

kind of new. They're not really my friends

33:03

yet. Cause I've sort of just moved in.

33:05

So I'm sort of dealing with this breakup

33:07

by myself in my room. Um, and

33:10

I call my mom and I ask, you know,

33:12

my mom to stay on the phone with me,

33:15

um, all night. And I pretty much cry

33:17

myself to sleep with my mom on the

33:19

phone. And then

33:21

I took my dad, um, and tell him

33:23

that we broke up and I

33:26

don't get a response, but I'm detecting

33:28

him to let him know because I see him every morning.

33:30

We're commuting to work together. And so I know that I'm

33:32

going to have to see him in the morning and I'm

33:35

going to be all of that and

33:37

teary eyed. And I just wanted him

33:40

to know why. Yeah. So

33:45

the next morning you go over to the house

33:48

to meet him to commute to work. Yeah.

33:51

So I go over to the house. I let myself in.

33:54

Um, I get there a little early,

33:56

you know, cause obviously I'm distressed

33:58

and. He hadn't

34:00

responded to my texts, so I thought

34:03

that was curious. Maybe he didn't know, and

34:05

so I'm also getting over to the house a little

34:07

earlier just to let him know before we get to

34:09

work, because I'm thinking he must have not seen the

34:11

messages. So I see his phone in the

34:14

entryway table when you

34:16

walk into the house, and I pick it

34:19

up just thinking, oh, maybe he put

34:21

it, plugged it in, you know, last night and

34:23

didn't get the message yet, because

34:25

he's been upstairs getting ready for work, went to

34:27

bed and getting ready. So

34:30

I opened the phone. This is

34:32

before Face ID and passcode been.

34:35

So I opened the phone, and I'm

34:38

expecting to just see my message right

34:40

there in the green box unopened, you

34:42

know? And

34:45

not only was it opened and had been read,

34:47

but I saw some other messages from

34:49

somebody I didn't recognize. Okay.

34:52

Your dad probably has friends you don't know, but I take

34:54

it there was a little bit more to it. Yeah.

34:58

So I'm immediately a little confused because I

35:00

see a message that says good night

35:02

sweetie. And for, you know, typically I'm

35:05

thinking that would have been

35:07

sent to me or my sister or my

35:09

mom, and I don't recognize the name. So

35:11

I open it. I'm

35:16

confused, a little upset and shocked,

35:18

but just kind of more so just confused

35:20

looking for more information. And I open it.

35:22

Who's this person? You know, I don't recognize

35:25

this person. And it's

35:28

clear that this is

35:30

a person he's having a romantic relationship with. Wow.

35:33

That's a ton of bricks. It didn't make me like a

35:35

ton of bricks. Yeah. And,

35:37

you know, it's during this time

35:40

when your mom is

35:42

suffering severe mental illness. You've

35:45

just broken up from your boyfriend. Yeah.

35:47

Things are not good. And

35:50

then you're confronted with this shocking

35:52

truth. And there was no

35:54

mistake, right? She was clearly having

35:56

a romantic relationship with somebody else. Yeah.

36:00

way to put it, I thought that maybe there was some sort

36:02

of mistake. You know, when I read the first Goodnight

36:04

Sweetie, I thought, oh, Shirley, this is some

36:06

cousin or distant family member I don't know

36:08

about, you know, I think your mind definitely

36:11

wants to tell you to fill in the

36:13

blanks for you to protect you. So

36:15

that was why I opened the

36:17

message. It's not like I immediately knew I opened

36:20

the message thinking, who is this person? Is this,

36:22

you know, someone I don't remember

36:24

meeting, I wasn't thinking that

36:26

it was a romantic relationship. But then

36:28

as I read up a couple of

36:31

the messages, I realized that this person

36:33

had visited Seattle and that they had

36:35

been hanging out. Okay,

36:38

it's a lot to process. So

36:40

your father's upstairs, you're looking

36:43

at his texts. And

36:45

what do you do? I imagine your heart must

36:47

be just racing. Yeah, I

36:49

was devastated. And, you know,

36:51

at this point, I'm also going into

36:54

the house because I'm looking for some

36:56

emotional support from my dad, you know,

36:58

I'm fresh off a breakup in

37:00

my 20s. And I

37:02

have to go to work, which sucks. And

37:05

all I want to do is

37:07

lay in bed and cry. And I'm looking for

37:09

some emotional support from my dad. And instead, I'm

37:11

confronted with this. And so I put

37:13

the phone down, because I don't want him to

37:15

know that I looked at it. And I

37:17

go into the kitchen, and

37:19

I kind of just sit there and process.

37:23

And he comes down in his suit, ready to

37:25

go to work and greet me as

37:27

if nothing has happened and

37:29

nothing has wrong. Wow. So did he

37:32

address the breakup? No, so that hurt

37:34

too. Yeah.

37:37

But he had been making time to text

37:40

this woman. Poor Hallie. Yeah.

37:44

I mean, I brought it up. I said, did you see

37:46

my message? And he said, oh, yeah. But

37:48

I think he kind of just

37:50

didn't know how to be emotionally supportive

37:53

to me in that moment. Just brushed

37:55

it off, said, you're going to be

37:57

OK. You'll find someone else. Let's

38:00

go to work. You've

38:03

got so many emotions running through you at this

38:05

point. Yep. I

38:08

can't even imagine. I mean, you must have just been in

38:10

a fog. I

38:12

was in a fog, but I also was

38:15

still in my probationary period at work,

38:17

and my dad is a

38:19

high up person in this place that we're

38:21

both working at, and I felt like I

38:24

needed to get it together. Yeah.

38:26

You want to make it through probation, and

38:28

you don't want to sell your father's reputation.

38:30

Right. A lot

38:33

of pressure. So, all right. So you pull

38:35

it together, and you carpool in? Yep.

38:39

Did you take a

38:41

moment to say anything to him about the

38:43

texts that you had found? No.

38:46

No way. There was

38:48

just no way to even remotely

38:50

bring that up. And this was 10 years ago.

38:53

Yes, this was 10 years ago. And you've

38:56

still said nothing to him about

38:58

those texts? No.

39:00

Okay. This

39:03

is a terrible position to be in. Your mom's

39:05

having trouble, your parents are having trouble. You've

39:08

stumbled across your dad's secret, and you're going through the

39:10

turmoil of the fresh breakup at the same time. Did

39:14

you talk to your mom about this? I

39:17

didn't bring up the text messages to my

39:20

mom about this other woman, because I was

39:22

in shock. I don't know why I was

39:24

in such shock, but

39:26

I was in shock. You know, you think of your parents

39:28

as these perfect people, and

39:31

then one day it comes crashing down and they're not. I

39:33

knew how much my mom was struggling,

39:36

and I didn't want to make that

39:38

harder for her. I mean, I think

39:40

it was the right decision not to tell her. Yeah.

39:44

Gosh. I mean, to

39:46

this day, I can hear it in your voice. It's

39:48

very difficult to think about.

39:54

Yeah. I just, I think

39:56

at that point I just so desperately wanted her to

39:58

be. better

40:00

that whatever that took, like it meant

40:02

divorcing my dad and just staying in

40:05

Houston, and that was better for everyone,

40:07

right? I felt like this was information she

40:09

didn't need to know. Did you

40:11

go back to his phone for more

40:13

intel when you got a chance? So

40:17

I did, you know, I went

40:19

to my sister and told her, you know, about

40:21

this. My sister and I are also very

40:24

close, and so I went to my sister and I told

40:26

her, and she was also

40:28

shocked and surprised and kind

40:30

of was almost like didn't believe me. What do you mean? I've

40:32

seen a lot of questions, and so my

40:34

dad and I, despite not always getting along, we

40:36

did spend a lot of time together. We lived down the street. So

40:39

when I went over to the house, if there

40:41

was an opportunity, I needed

40:44

more information, I guess then. I'm not

40:46

justifying my behavior. I'm

40:48

not saying it was right, but I needed

40:50

to understand what was happening

40:53

because our family was really

40:56

torn apart at this point. My

40:59

mom wasn't spending Thanksgiving with us

41:01

and Thanksgiving was a holiday that we always

41:03

spent together. I never missed a Thanksgiving with

41:05

either one of my parents. The shift that's

41:08

happening is really intense, and so

41:10

I wanted to know what is

41:12

going on here, right? And so

41:15

I went through some of his messages, I went

41:17

through some of his email to just get more

41:19

information about who this person was. Were

41:21

you able to figure out who she was? I

41:23

did, and I Googled her. What

41:26

did you find out? I found out

41:28

that they were former coworkers in Houston

41:30

and that she was living in Houston. And

41:33

were you able to figure out if they had visited each

41:35

other? Yeah, through

41:37

their email, there had been indications

41:39

of flights and airport

41:41

pickups and their reservations that

41:44

they were having in Seattle

41:46

and things like that. Well,

41:48

with you down the street. Yep.

41:52

Well, they're managing a clandestine, long

41:54

distance relationship, so that must have

41:57

just been very hard. Yeah,

41:59

it was pretty hard. bold given that I'm in my

42:01

20s, so I'm also kind of out and

42:03

about in the same neighborhood. It wasn't unusual

42:06

at times to like run into my dad. I mean, we

42:09

went to the same gym, but

42:11

I never, I never saw him with

42:14

her. How long do

42:16

you think that they had been in a relationship? When did

42:18

it start? That is still very

42:20

much a mystery, but I know

42:23

for certain that it started over 10

42:25

years ago, but I have a feeling

42:27

given that they were coworkers in the

42:29

same city and that my parents' marriage

42:31

has gone through many ups and downs

42:33

throughout my life. I had a feeling

42:35

that it had started even earlier. It

42:38

makes me surprised that he would take the job in Seattle.

42:42

Yeah, you're right. It is

42:44

weird. But

42:46

I guess that was more important. You

42:50

know, work has always been a priority for

42:52

my dad, showing

42:54

up to work, showing up early, putting

42:56

in the work. That's always something that

42:59

he's really valued. So

43:01

you opted not to confront him. And

43:05

I can think of a million reasons why

43:07

you would not want to do that. And

43:09

I think that we could talk about pros and cons

43:11

as to whether or

43:14

not you should or should not talk to him.

43:16

But why did you decide not to

43:18

confront him about it? Besides the fact

43:20

that it would have been unbearably awkward,

43:22

the main motivator to

43:25

not confront him was because I

43:27

violated his privacy by looking at

43:29

his phone. And privacy

43:32

is something that my dad

43:34

has always, always, always

43:36

instilled in my sister and

43:38

I from a very young age. My

43:41

sister and I grew up with dial-up internet.

43:45

And even as my dad was kind of learning

43:47

about dial-up internet and email with us,

43:49

I remember conversations about how we should

43:52

never look at one another at each

43:54

other's email. He would always make sure

43:56

that he was logged out of his email

43:58

before I came in. This was you know,

44:00

at the time when everybody shared one computer bed. Long

44:02

time ago. I

44:05

remember those days. Yeah. He would always

44:07

make sure like, Oh, am I logged out

44:09

of my email before you get on? Yep.

44:11

Yep. You're logged out. It was always very

44:13

drilled home that you respect one another's privacy

44:15

and that that's very important. And you know,

44:17

as a teenager, I appreciated that. It's not

44:20

like I wanted my parents listening to my

44:22

phone calls with my friends and everything.

44:25

Yeah. Okay. So you've

44:27

got the situation on one side

44:29

with your dad and this discovery

44:31

that you've made. And

44:34

on the other side, you've still got your

44:36

mom who is not doing well. No.

44:40

I'm sure you make another trip to Houston. Yeah.

44:43

At this point, I've made a couple of trips. And

44:46

how's she doing? She is

44:49

not doing well. She's getting worse.

44:51

I found her a therapist that

44:54

doesn't seem to be helping. At this point,

44:56

my mom also was not on any medication

44:59

because she had switched providers, right? When she

45:01

moved to Seattle and now she

45:03

has no provider in

45:05

Houston, she hasn't reconnected with a

45:08

provider. And so she's not

45:10

on any medication. She's seen a therapist.

45:12

She's living with my 85 year

45:14

old grandma. And even my grandma is

45:16

sort of encouraging her to move

45:18

out. She's kind of like, you're

45:20

too young to be living with

45:23

me, living

45:25

like an elderly person. So she wants

45:27

her to move downtown to this condo

45:30

that my parents had owned that they

45:32

kept there. And so she

45:34

does. She thinks that it'll be better for my mom

45:36

to kind of be more in the

45:40

city and more

45:42

action. And so my

45:44

mom does, but that really wasn't a good

45:46

idea. Why? What happened? She

45:50

just was completely isolated then at that point.

45:52

She didn't even have my

45:54

grandma to kind of check in with her to

45:56

make sure that she was eating. My mom was

45:58

completely left to her own

46:01

devices and started drinking.

46:03

And to see my mom

46:05

to start drinking was also really

46:07

quite a bit of a shock for me because my mom

46:10

was never a

46:12

drinker, never a smoker. So

46:17

I'm sure you're talking to your dad about your

46:19

mom's condition and

46:21

he's taking the same hands-off approach as usual.

46:25

Yeah, I mean I'm kind of alerting him

46:27

to like she's drinking a lot. I don't,

46:29

you know, she's not doing well. And you know,

46:32

I had even said things to my dad

46:34

like she doesn't pick up my phone calls

46:36

when I call her. My mom sort of

46:38

stopped calling me on my birthday or she

46:41

wouldn't pick up the phone on Mother's Day.

46:43

And so I'm telling my

46:45

dad this, like she didn't even call me

46:47

on my birthday. And he

46:49

kind of just, you know, shook his head.

46:52

Do you and your sister have any

46:54

plans to intervene with your mom? Because

46:57

nobody else is rushing out to help her. Yes,

47:01

I mean we are doing everything

47:03

we can from a distance to

47:05

try to encourage my mom to

47:07

get help. I was calling

47:09

the therapist and trying to get information on

47:11

what they were talking about in their sessions,

47:14

even though I know that's inappropriate and a

47:16

HIPAA violation. And the therapist would

47:18

at times would call me and alert me when my mom

47:20

didn't show up to her appointments. And then

47:22

my mom found out about that and didn't like

47:24

that and told the therapist to stop talking to

47:26

me. So that was like the one person I

47:29

had access to, to my mom that my mom

47:31

cut off. I'm also

47:34

at times

47:36

reaching out to some family members, asking them

47:38

to check on my mom for me when

47:41

she would go days at a time without

47:43

answering my phone calls or texts.

47:46

But my mom didn't like that. And in

47:48

the back of my mind too, my dad

47:50

is all about privacy again, you know, and

47:52

you know that she should be able to

47:54

kind of do what she wants

47:56

and don't make a scene. He didn't really want other

47:58

people to kind of... of know

48:01

what was going on with her. He kind

48:03

of wanted to, I guess, the way he

48:05

said it was protect her privacy. There were

48:07

times where I wanted to do wellness checks

48:09

on my mom, and I did. And then

48:12

my dad would get really mad about that, that we

48:15

had called the police to do a wellness check because

48:17

he was concerned about what the doorman would think or

48:19

what the neighbors would think. Mason- Yeah. And

48:21

you did a wellness check because she wasn't answering calls?

48:23

Dr. Kline- Yeah. Mason- What did they find?

48:26

She's just told up? Dr. Kline-

48:28

Yeah. She would answer the door and they'd say,

48:30

she's fine. Mason-

48:33

How were visits when you went to go out to see her? Dr.

48:35

Kline- It was definitely different. She was kind

48:37

of a shell of herself, but I couldn't

48:39

convince her to get help because it was

48:42

almost, again, the fear that

48:44

people would find out and that she

48:46

would be judged for that, especially now

48:48

that she was back home. She didn't

48:50

want to somehow have to interact with

48:52

old coworkers at the old medical facility

48:55

that she was at, even though she

48:57

could have gone somewhere else. There was

48:59

always an excuse for everything, but the

49:01

years I'm going by, I'm

49:04

trying to help her as much as I can. I'm staying

49:06

in touch with her, I'm visiting her, but

49:09

it's not improving. Nothing's improving. Mason-

49:12

You had described earlier that she had not

49:15

been taking care of herself. Had

49:18

she gotten worse in that area? Dr. Kline-

49:20

Yes. Mason- Can you tell me about that?

49:23

Dr. Kline- Her hair wasn't washed. Her clothing was

49:26

dirty. The condo was a mess. Every time

49:28

I visited,

49:36

there was never food in her fridge. There

49:38

was only ever alcohol. There was no evidence

49:40

that she was leading a life that

49:43

was dignified in any way.

49:46

And yet your parents stay married through all this.

49:49

Dr. Kline- Yes. Mason- Even

49:51

in light of an extramarital affair

49:54

that you're aware of. Dr. Kline- Right.

49:56

Mason- Why do you think he did

49:58

not divorce her? I

50:02

mean, he's disengaged completely from

50:05

her. He has

50:07

another romantic relationship. Yeah.

50:11

He's probably supporting her. Yeah.

50:14

I mean, I don't know. I guess marriage is

50:17

complicated, right, Ben? But I mean, they've been

50:19

married for so long. Their

50:21

finances are completely enmeshed at this

50:23

point. You know, they own two different

50:25

properties. And I think he

50:27

didn't want to proceed with that

50:29

until she got better and felt like, you

50:32

know, that she wasn't going to be able to

50:34

be able to equip to navigate something like a

50:36

divorce when she was doing so, when doing well.

50:39

And yet he wasn't doing anything to

50:41

achieve that goal. Right. Of

50:44

getting her better, except for subsidizing

50:46

her life. Yeah,

50:49

pretty much. And to be

50:51

honest, she wasn't even using that money. She would

50:53

send her checks and they would go

50:55

uncashed. But she was completely, completely

50:57

a hermit. Just like no

51:00

evidence of living today.

51:02

And so she didn't reach out to him.

51:06

No. Did he go visit her at any point? No.

51:11

One visit though, my sister came with

51:13

her boyfriend who she was likely

51:15

going to marry. And I wanted to come

51:17

visit with my boyfriend as well, who I

51:21

was pretty sure I was going to marry. And

51:23

we wanted her to meet, be part

51:26

of their lives. We wanted her to be a part of

51:28

our lives and to meet them. And we

51:30

were hoping that this visit with all of us

51:32

would just sort of rejuvenate

51:34

her or motivate her

51:37

to feel hopeful

51:39

about the future, you know, because

51:42

a lot of time has passed at this point then. And

51:44

so now my sister and I have gone from being

51:46

in our like early to mid 20s

51:49

to late 20s, early 30s. And we're getting

51:51

ready for the next, the next

51:53

chapter. And you know, we're hoping that

51:55

our mom is going to

51:57

be along for the ride. And we want her to

51:59

be. Yeah. So

52:01

you guys go to Houston and you go see

52:03

your mom? No,

52:06

I mean, we tried. We

52:09

go to Houston and

52:11

we get an Airbnb and

52:14

make plans to try to see her, write

52:16

for brunch or to come by the condo

52:19

and do all the

52:21

touristy things together. And

52:23

she doesn't answer the door. She knew you were coming.

52:27

She knew. And she didn't answer the door. It

52:32

doesn't look like things are getting any better for Halle's mom.

52:34

We'll find out if they got to visit. And

52:36

if Halle ever confronted her dad about the text she

52:39

saw in his phone, we'll be right

52:41

back. It

52:55

seems like everything I do involves my data going

52:57

through the internet in some fashion. I

52:59

use different passwords on different sites to be safe,

53:01

but it doesn't seem like enough when you read about

53:04

the latest major data leak. So

53:06

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54:22

It's all in the show notes. And

54:33

we're back with Halle's secret as she and her sister

54:35

are hoping to visit their mom and introduce their boyfriends.

54:39

She didn't answer her

54:41

phone. She wouldn't answer the door. She just

54:43

didn't want to see us.

54:46

I guess she didn't want us to see her like

54:48

that. Right. A lot

54:50

of depression is such a hard thing for

54:53

everybody. Yeah. So

54:56

how long were you in town? We

55:00

were in town for a couple of days and, you

55:03

know, along the way, she had been making

55:05

some excuses to like, Oh, I don't feel

55:07

well. I'll see you guys tomorrow or this

55:09

or that, but just didn't, you

55:12

know, never actually committed to plans. And so we

55:14

were there for a couple of days and we

55:16

told our dad, you know, we came all the

55:18

way to Houston and she didn't even see us.

55:22

Oh my gosh, devastating. You must have been just

55:25

frantic with worry about her. I

55:28

definitely knew that. I think at that

55:31

point, you know, my sister and I were like,

55:33

it was a tipping point for us because we

55:36

were in the same city as her with

55:38

our boyfriends, with this visit that she

55:41

knew about. And she declined

55:43

to meet us. So, yeah, we

55:45

definitely were like, we've reached a new

55:47

level of whatever's going on

55:49

here. What happened on your

55:51

next visit? The next

55:54

visit was my grandma's 90th

55:56

birthday and my sister

55:58

and I came into town and

56:01

it was a difficult visit because

56:03

my mom was just really not

56:05

herself. Obviously, hadn't been herself for 10

56:07

years at this point, but really, really

56:10

not herself. Like, it felt

56:12

like we couldn't have any kind of logical

56:14

or rational conversation with her. At

56:16

a certain point, we were like convinced she wasn't even going

56:18

to come to this celebratory dinner for

56:21

my grandma. It was just really

56:23

awkward and uncomfortable because

56:25

she wouldn't address what

56:28

was going on with her. We didn't admit it and

56:31

we just wanted her to get help. Also, at this

56:33

point, my sister and I are, I mean, we're kind

56:35

of hurt, obviously. It's

56:37

been years now of feeling like we have

56:39

a mom that wasn't participating in our lives

56:41

and we really wanted her to and exciting

56:43

things were sort of likely happening for us

56:46

on the horizon and we wanted her to

56:48

be a part of those things. She

56:51

just didn't seem to care.

56:53

I know that was her depression, but she just

56:55

didn't seem to care and she didn't seem motivated

56:57

to address it. The situation felt really

56:59

hopeless. It felt like it wasn't ever going to improve.

57:03

She was drinking a lot

57:05

and she just, it kind

57:08

of just felt like talking to somebody

57:10

who was

57:12

like soul had already kind of left, you

57:14

know, she just wasn't there. That's

57:17

devastating. Did your father

57:19

ever make it down? So

57:23

after that visit, he goes to Houston

57:25

a couple of weeks later, but

57:27

this is after us pretty much having

57:29

a three way phone call with him, yelling

57:32

at him basically about how how bad this

57:34

is. So he goes, he goes to Houston.

57:36

He shows up at the condo unannounced. What

57:40

happens? I, does

57:42

he get in to see her? She

57:45

lets him in because I guess he also owns it.

57:48

But she's pissed. I mean, she doesn't

57:51

want to see him. She's

57:53

really mad. Obviously

57:55

she's been mad at him now for a while and

57:57

she doesn't want to see him. there,

58:00

he says to get her help. She

58:02

doesn't want to take it. Wow.

58:07

So what are his options? I mean,

58:09

he wasn't really equipped to handle

58:11

it in the beginning anyway, with

58:13

my help. So he turns around and he

58:15

goes back to Seattle and he tells us

58:17

that, yeah, she's not doing

58:19

well. She's drinking. You're right. But,

58:22

um, she's fine and I,

58:24

and she'll be fine. I mean, you know,

58:26

she's not going to be fine. Yeah.

58:28

I mean, I'm definitely bummed

58:31

at this point. Like, I guess they're just hoping

58:33

that somehow she would listen to my dad maybe,

58:35

and that my dad would convince her to get

58:37

help. Um, or, you know, because I felt like

58:39

maybe she wasn't listening to my sister and I

58:42

because we were her daughters. And so

58:44

meantime, your life is obviously going on. And so

58:46

is your sisters. Yeah.

58:48

And so, you know, our, our life

58:50

is continuing. We're progressing in

58:52

our careers and on our relationships, I

58:55

have plans to go to Europe to

58:58

visit my boyfriend's parents that were there.

59:00

Oh, nice. This is the same

59:02

boyfriend who dumped me, um, Oh

59:04

really? Okay. Years prior. So he

59:07

made amends. Yes.

59:09

We figured it out. And you

59:11

know, like upon reflection, a lot

59:13

of our conflict at that point

59:15

was related to my parents. I

59:18

mean, in terms of how I was managing, right?

59:20

I wasn't really good at managing my own emotions.

59:23

And I think he got the brunt of a

59:25

lot of that. You

59:28

had a lot going on still do. I had a

59:30

lot going on. Yeah. But we figured it

59:32

out. And yeah, so I'm ready to kind

59:34

of, you know, really reinvest in this relationship

59:37

and move forward with the rest

59:39

of our lives. You know,

59:41

if he hadn't dumped you, you might never

59:43

have known about your father's affair. Wow.

59:47

Sorry. I never actually thought about that. The

59:49

truth bomb. You're right.

59:53

Well, anyway, it is what it is. And

59:57

you found the truth. Yeah,

1:00:01

so you go on the trip, but I imagine

1:00:04

you might feel some conflict about that because you're

1:00:06

going a long ways away from mom It's

1:00:10

gonna be hard for you to respond, you know, she has

1:00:12

some crisis. Yeah. No, I mean I

1:00:14

was I was concerned about it at

1:00:16

this point so We've

1:00:18

been begging her to get help for years

1:00:20

and years and years and I felt like

1:00:22

I couldn't put my life on hold Anymore

1:00:24

and I told her I

1:00:26

was going to Europe. I had already we'd already

1:00:29

talked about it I kind of

1:00:31

was just hoping that Everything would

1:00:33

be okay for like the five or six days

1:00:35

I was gone and that my sister would be

1:00:37

able to kind of handle everything

1:00:39

while I was gone. Mm-hmm Yeah,

1:00:42

so were you in touch with your mom from Europe? Not

1:00:46

really I would text her and then

1:00:48

she wouldn't respond so the communication was

1:00:51

was really not Happening anytime my

1:00:53

mom wouldn't respond. I would get really

1:00:55

worked up and really emotional It

1:00:58

would just ruin the day and so I was

1:01:00

also trying to not Get

1:01:02

to that place when I'm you know with

1:01:04

my boyfriend's family in Europe. I didn't want to

1:01:06

ruin the trip Okay, how was

1:01:09

your boyfriend taking all this? He doesn't really

1:01:11

know my mom at this point. She's been Absent

1:01:14

so he doesn't even really

1:01:16

understand Like how

1:01:18

to help me right or help her

1:01:22

The trip was okay. I mean, yeah, the trip

1:01:24

was nice I mean, I was really worried and

1:01:26

I hadn't heard from her yet at this

1:01:28

point And so the whole flight back

1:01:30

was stressful because I kind of was

1:01:32

like I haven't heard

1:01:35

from her right and I'm talking to

1:01:37

my sister while I'm in Europe and she's trying to get a

1:01:39

hold of my mom too, but Yeah,

1:01:41

I think I was stressed and I was just

1:01:43

happy to be back Right, like you said in

1:01:45

the US and a little closer So

1:01:47

what happened you must have gotten in touch with

1:01:50

your mom at some point? So My

1:01:52

sister this whole time is kind of telling

1:01:54

me she can't really reach her and so

1:01:56

at this point I'm my mom like the shuttle

1:01:59

bus we'd go from the airport,

1:02:01

getting back to our house, um, or our apartment.

1:02:03

And I'm like, fuck it, whatever. Do a

1:02:05

wellness check. At this point, my sister and I

1:02:07

were always hesitant to do the wellness check

1:02:10

because again, it would make my dad mad

1:02:12

and he didn't like like the

1:02:14

attention and the scene that it would

1:02:16

sort of cause probably upset your

1:02:18

mom too. And yeah, she

1:02:20

didn't love that either. But you know, we're

1:02:22

desperate at this point. We haven't heard from her. My

1:02:25

sister does the wellness check to just get

1:02:27

in touch with her. And I'm, I'm back in

1:02:29

the U S and just waiting to hear,

1:02:31

you know, that obviously she's fine and all

1:02:33

of that. And

1:02:36

how did the wellness check come back? At

1:02:41

this point, I'm, you

1:02:43

know, at home now I'm getting in my bed

1:02:45

because I'm exhausted from jet lag and I'm

1:02:48

anticipating going to work tomorrow. So I just

1:02:50

want to hear from my sister that they

1:02:52

did and deeply eyes on her. So my

1:02:54

sister called me and I

1:02:57

pick up just thinking it's going to be

1:02:59

one of those calls that it always is. And

1:03:02

instead on the other line, she's

1:03:04

screaming. She's gone.

1:03:06

She's gone. Oh

1:03:08

my God. And,

1:03:12

um, yeah, my

1:03:14

mom was

1:03:17

dead. So

1:03:22

sorry. Thank you. Was

1:03:25

it suicide? Yeah.

1:03:31

I mean, that must've just broken your world. I

1:03:38

was, I think

1:03:40

the only way I can put it is that

1:03:42

I was, um, irretrievably

1:03:48

shattered. Yeah. I

1:03:52

was heartbroken and just completely

1:03:56

devastated. Sounds like you

1:03:58

might've had a feeling that it. It was coming. Yeah,

1:04:04

I think we both knew. And I

1:04:06

think my sister kind of later

1:04:08

on admitted that she was waiting

1:04:11

for me to get back from Europe and

1:04:13

do the wellness check. But

1:04:17

of course, you know, we'd been down this path

1:04:19

before, you know, so we're

1:04:21

just thinking again

1:04:23

that it was gonna be the same thing it always

1:04:26

is. She opens the door, she's fine. And

1:04:29

we'll figure it out later.

1:04:33

So sorry. So

1:04:36

was this a unifying moment, you know,

1:04:38

between your dad and your

1:04:41

sister and you? Yeah. How

1:04:43

did he react? My sister told

1:04:46

him I wasn't there, but she

1:04:48

called him. And then I came over to his place

1:04:50

later. He was upset

1:04:52

and crying. We were

1:04:55

all crying. And we had

1:04:57

to get to Houston pretty

1:04:59

much together as a family as soon as

1:05:01

possible to get everything in place. And

1:05:04

so I think we kind of

1:05:06

came together in that moment, the

1:05:08

three of us, because we were

1:05:10

just so heartbroken. There's

1:05:14

a lot of emotions, a lot of logistics to work through.

1:05:18

Yeah. But your life has gotta

1:05:20

continue going, right? Yeah. I imagine your father

1:05:22

stays in Seattle where he's got a job.

1:05:25

Yeah. He goes back to work

1:05:27

and I go back to work. Yeah.

1:05:30

And you're getting ready to get married. And

1:05:32

so is your sister. And

1:05:34

you're probably wondering in the back of your head, what

1:05:36

is going on with your dad's relationship? Yeah.

1:05:41

Like what's the status of that? Are they together?

1:05:43

Are they not? How does

1:05:46

this even figure into this situation?

1:05:49

I'm wondering, what is he even telling her about

1:05:51

my mom's death? So you need

1:05:53

to pick up the pieces, move forward. Do

1:05:57

you get married? I do. I get

1:05:59

married, my sister. get married, my sister

1:06:01

married before me, just putting

1:06:03

that there. She's older. She beat

1:06:05

you to the altar. Yeah, she had

1:06:07

a baby. And it all happened

1:06:10

without mom. Yeah.

1:06:12

Yeah. Did you have a baby too? I

1:06:14

had two. Congratulations. Yeah, thank

1:06:17

you. You know, now I'm

1:06:19

wondering, does your father's girlfriend come out of the

1:06:21

woodwork? She

1:06:23

does. Not

1:06:25

exactly does he roll her out. Good

1:06:29

question, Ben. He kind

1:06:31

of rolls her out and introduces

1:06:35

her to us, you know, a year later, after my

1:06:37

mom died, a year later, he kind of introduces

1:06:40

her to us as like this

1:06:42

friend that he's been seeing and

1:06:44

that he wanted her to come to Thanksgiving. Okay.

1:06:47

Which was a hard, hard

1:06:49

pill for us to swallow. Because I said

1:06:51

Thanksgiving was such a big holiday for us

1:06:53

as a family. And that was the first

1:06:55

holiday that my mom started missing out on.

1:06:58

But he waited a respectful period of

1:07:01

time for morning. He did. About

1:07:03

a year. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a hard pill

1:07:05

for you to swallow, mainly

1:07:07

because you know, she's been around a

1:07:09

lot longer. Well,

1:07:11

yeah. Yeah.

1:07:15

But dad doesn't know that you know. He doesn't

1:07:17

know that I know that. Right. No. Okay.

1:07:21

Can I read a line that you gave me

1:07:23

in some notes? Sure. You

1:07:26

said in 2018, I get introduced to

1:07:28

Nancy knowing this

1:07:30

bitch has been around well before my mom

1:07:32

died. Yeah.

1:07:36

So you, you're angry. I'm

1:07:40

angry, Ben. I, I, I'm, I'm

1:07:42

annoyed that now that

1:07:45

I have to kind of perform act,

1:07:47

pretend that I, that this is some person

1:07:49

that I am supposed to be excited about

1:07:51

when my mom isn't

1:07:54

here and my sister had

1:07:56

a beautiful baby and this baby

1:07:59

is named after. my mom and

1:08:01

this person gets to enjoy

1:08:03

the baby, not my mom. My

1:08:06

mom should be here enjoying this baby. She

1:08:08

should, no question about it. So

1:08:10

how integrated into the family does

1:08:12

Nancy become? Like

1:08:16

does your father marry her? No.

1:08:19

He does not, hmm. I

1:08:21

think it was a slow and then

1:08:23

steady and then

1:08:26

immediate integration. Like it

1:08:28

kind of brought her around and then

1:08:30

implied that he wanted her to come

1:08:32

to my wedding. And I

1:08:34

want to hate this person. I want to hate

1:08:36

her because I want to blame her for what's

1:08:38

happened to my mom. And when

1:08:41

I meet her, I don't hate her. She's

1:08:43

a lovely person. She

1:08:45

filled a little bit of the maternal love

1:08:48

that I had been lacking for the

1:08:51

last couple of years. She's not

1:08:53

a bad person. I can't say that this is

1:08:55

a bad person. So

1:08:58

I kind of go along with it and I

1:09:00

don't want to hurt her feelings either. So

1:09:03

when my dad asks if she can come to my wedding,

1:09:05

I know that he's going to tell her that I said

1:09:07

no, if I say no, so I

1:09:09

say yes. You know, how involved

1:09:11

in the wedding is she? She did end

1:09:14

up coming to the cake testing

1:09:16

that I had when I, that was

1:09:18

actually the first time I met her. That was the first

1:09:20

time you met her? Yeah. Wow.

1:09:23

Yeah. Okay, so this is very

1:09:25

difficult. And so, I mean, there's so many

1:09:27

conflicting emotions here. And

1:09:30

so present day, she's around? Yeah,

1:09:33

I mean, so now she's

1:09:35

around, she's at Thanksgiving, she's

1:09:37

at various things as

1:09:40

it relates to my children and my

1:09:42

sister's children. And it's

1:09:44

difficult because they are

1:09:47

toxic together. We don't even

1:09:49

see the point in this relationship.

1:09:51

Your dad and Nancy are toxic

1:09:54

together? Yes. Oh really? Yep.

1:09:57

What is toxic about their relationship?

1:10:00

They both drink more

1:10:02

when they're around each other.

1:10:05

They seem irritated with each

1:10:07

other. I'm certainly fighting.

1:10:09

You know, Nancy crosses a lot of

1:10:11

boundaries with me and will tell me

1:10:13

about fights that they have that should be

1:10:16

private. Oh my gosh. My dad doesn't know

1:10:18

that she's telling me these sort of fights

1:10:20

that they're having or the sort

1:10:22

of things that my dad has said about

1:10:26

my sister and I or something, you know,

1:10:28

like disagreeing with maybe the name

1:10:31

that we chose for our baby.

1:10:33

She'll tell us that our dad didn't like

1:10:35

that name. Yeah. You

1:10:37

must have been tempted so many times to say,

1:10:39

well, I know a couple of things myself. It

1:10:42

definitely felt like when she was introduced into the

1:10:45

family, it felt like she got comfortable immediately. That

1:10:47

was another tip off to my sister and I

1:10:49

that it almost felt like a Truman show, I

1:10:51

guess, kind of the best way I can describe

1:10:54

it to you then. It felt like she knew

1:10:56

my sister and I so

1:10:59

much more deeply than we had

1:11:01

realized. And I can only assume

1:11:03

that's because she has known us

1:11:05

from the outside. She's been

1:11:07

his confidant. Yeah. Did she move to

1:11:10

Seattle? They kind of had

1:11:12

a relationship where because of COVID and

1:11:14

everything and flexible work environment and work

1:11:16

stuff, she was there for, you know,

1:11:18

once at a time and

1:11:20

then he would be visiting. He would go back to

1:11:22

Houston and visit her for a little bit. And

1:11:24

so they were doing this long distance sort of thing. My

1:11:27

dad ended up retiring and

1:11:30

sold the house and moved back to

1:11:32

Houston and now lives with her. Your

1:11:36

dad cheated on your mom while she

1:11:38

was sick and spiraling. Yeah. He

1:11:40

wasn't interested and was clearly occupied with

1:11:42

somebody else. Yeah. There's

1:11:46

so many aspects to this, Hallie.

1:11:50

Your dad is entitled to

1:11:52

find happiness, right? Mm-hmm.

1:11:55

Do you feel that as a conflict within yourself?

1:11:57

Like, you know, is that a reason why

1:11:59

you don't? confront him about the illicit

1:12:01

relationship that you knew he had. Yes,

1:12:03

my dad deserves happiness

1:12:05

and deserved to have a life

1:12:07

too, but we don't

1:12:09

discuss it because I don't

1:12:12

think my dad thinks that that relationship

1:12:15

with Nancy has anything to do

1:12:17

with my mom's decline. And

1:12:19

you do. It's hard not to think that it

1:12:22

was certainly impacted. His priorities were

1:12:24

elsewhere. He was distracted. Do

1:12:27

you think there would be anything gained by talking

1:12:29

to him about it? Not really.

1:12:33

Yeah, would be a

1:12:35

real shocking conversation for him. Yeah,

1:12:38

and I mean, he would be, again,

1:12:40

back to the fact that I violated

1:12:42

his privacy. I think he would focus

1:12:44

on that more and be just totally

1:12:46

livid that I look at his phone

1:12:48

and an email. I mean, that's really

1:12:50

beside the point at

1:12:52

this stage, but

1:12:55

I can see how he could use that to

1:12:57

deflect. I think he would

1:13:00

be really mad about that and I wouldn't

1:13:02

be able to defend myself.

1:13:04

But I also think that talking

1:13:06

about my mom and even

1:13:09

insinuating that there's

1:13:11

some blame to share here

1:13:14

would be a conversation he's not

1:13:16

ready to have. What's your sister's

1:13:18

point of view on sharing the information with your

1:13:20

dad? She feels

1:13:22

the same. I think we both

1:13:25

really want the truth. I think

1:13:27

we want the truth because we want

1:13:29

our experience to be validated. Once

1:13:31

I realized they were in this relationship, everything clicked.

1:13:33

You start running through all of these memories you

1:13:36

have when you're a teenager and all these other

1:13:38

things, and you're like, oh, that makes sense why

1:13:40

they were fighting about this, you

1:13:42

know? And so it starts to click like

1:13:44

this person has probably been around for a

1:13:47

really long time. And she

1:13:49

has informed my childhood indirectly, whether

1:13:51

she realizes it or not. I

1:13:55

want the truth. I want to know what

1:13:57

the truth is, but I don't think I'm

1:13:59

going to get that from my dad. I

1:18:00

don't think you should feel guilty. Thank

1:18:04

you. I'm

1:18:08

interested to know, Hallie, if

1:18:10

you had to do it all over again, would you,

1:18:12

that fateful morning, would you not look at your father's

1:18:14

phone and just live in

1:18:16

ignorance? Would you have preferred that? Yeah. Or

1:18:19

is there value to knowing the truth?

1:18:25

I think I wish that I had

1:18:27

never looked at his phone, because

1:18:30

then I could have

1:18:32

a relationship with this woman without

1:18:34

guilt, and I could

1:18:36

feel like more at peace

1:18:39

with everything. Do you

1:18:41

think you and your sister will ever bring it up to your

1:18:43

dad? My sister and I

1:18:45

have sort of like, we've

1:18:48

sort of nudged at the fact that, oh,

1:18:52

you didn't meet Nancy back in Houston? You

1:18:54

know, we've kind of nudged at that a

1:18:56

little bit. What

1:18:59

does he say? And he'll just be like,

1:19:01

oh no. I mean, like, yeah, I mean, we

1:19:03

were coworkers, but we reconnected later. Like

1:19:06

he'll always just sort of stick to the story of

1:19:09

they reconnected, you know,

1:19:11

after my mom's death. And so it doesn't

1:19:14

feel right now like there's a point in

1:19:16

being like, actually, I know you're lying. Right.

1:19:19

But you've kind of dropped a hint or two here

1:19:21

and there that maybe you guys know a little something

1:19:23

more than you've let on. We've

1:19:26

nudged at it, but he definitely is

1:19:28

firm in denying any of

1:19:30

that. That even solidifies my decision more to not

1:19:32

have said anything then that day or

1:19:36

now because I know it wasn't going to

1:19:38

do anything. Yeah. What a

1:19:40

heavy secret to Carrie, Hallie. Yeah,

1:19:45

it's not fun. Why

1:19:48

did you want to share it today? You

1:19:51

know, I was asking myself that. Why did I want

1:19:53

to share this secret or why did I

1:19:55

want to do this podcast, trying

1:19:57

to understand my, for myself, my own