0:03

Welcome to the

0:03

sibling Leadership Network

0:05

podcast. The sibling Leadership

0:05

Network is a national nonprofit

0:09

whose mission is to provide

0:09

siblings of individuals with

0:12

disabilities, the information,

0:12

support and tools to advocate

0:15

with their brothers and sisters,

0:15

and to promote the issue is

0:18

important to us and our entire

0:18

families. Hello, and thank you

0:23

for joining us for another

0:23

episode of the sibling

0:25

Leadership Network Podcast.

0:25

Today we're talking about plain

0:29

language, what it is, how to ask

0:29

for it, and when to use it. I'm

0:33

joined today by the Director of

0:33

Advocacy for the Autistic Self

0:37

Advocacy Network. Zoe Gross.

0:37

Zoe, thank you so much for

0:40

joining us today.

0:42

Thank you for having me.

0:43

Please tell us

0:43

about yourself and what led you

0:46

to your current work?

0:47

Sure. So I'm an

0:47

autistic self advocate working

0:51

in the field of disability

0:51

policy. I've been doing

0:54

disability policy work since I

0:54

moved to DC and 2014. And I've

0:59

been with ASAN for the last six

0:59

years, although I did some

1:02

volunteer work with it as at

1:02

back in 2011. So I've been with

1:05

them for a pretty long time, if

1:05

you count that. I'm just

1:08

passionate about making policy

1:08

accessible, getting more people

1:12

are involved in policy,

1:12

advocacy, and civic engagement,

1:15

and really empowering people

1:15

with disabilities to make policy

1:19

changes.

1:20

So what is plain

1:20

language? And why is it so

1:23

important?

1:25

Sure. So plain

1:25

language is a way of writing

1:28

that is more accessible to

1:28

people with intellectual and

1:31

developmental disabilities. And

1:31

not only to people with IDD, but

1:34

also to people with other

1:34

language processing disabilities

1:37

or English language learners as

1:37

well. Plain language uses a

1:42

lower reading grade level, it

1:42

uses simpler sentence structure,

1:46

shorter sentences, shorter

1:46

words, more common words rather

1:50

than less frequently used words.

1:50

Those are some of the features

1:53

of plain language. ASN offers a

1:53

training that will go through

1:56

eight features of plant language. And I'm not going to get into detail of breakdown

1:58

each one right here. But you can

2:01

access that training online. And

2:01

we offer it every year as well.

2:05

So why is plain

2:05

language so important?

2:09

Sure. So plain language is a way to make information accessible. And

2:11

access to information is really

2:15

critical, to give people the

2:15

power to take policy into their

2:21

own hands or even to understand

2:21

things about their lives. So for

2:25

example, we have a resource on

2:25

Medicaid and how Medicaid works

2:29

and what Medicaid waivers are.

2:29

And that was really useful when

2:33

Medicaid funding was being

2:33

debated. So that people who are

2:36

Medicaid beneficiaries can

2:36

understand how is this program

2:40

that I depend on funded? And

2:40

what are the arguments people

2:43

are having about how it should

2:43

be funded? And how can I get

2:46

involved in that policy

2:46

discussion and help influence

2:49

it. So that this program that I

2:49

depend on can continue just to

2:54

empower someone to understand

2:54

why the things in their life are

2:58

the way they are? And then what

2:58

they can do about it? Those are

3:01

really powerful, important

3:01

things.

3:03

Do you have an

3:03

example of plain language?

3:06

Sure. So if you go to

3:06

a ASAN website, you can see all

3:11

of our plain language resources

3:11

and our resource library. And

3:14

one of the first pages that will

3:14

come up is our plain language

3:16

resources on COVID-19. And if

3:16

you go and look at those, you'll

3:22

see many different topics about

3:22

COVID explained in plain

3:25

language, our most recent one

3:25

breaks down what long COVID is.

3:29

And we have more coming out in

3:29

the coming months. And those we

3:34

just felt were really important

3:34

because especially in the early

3:38

days of COVID, when there was so

3:38

much that we didn't know and it

3:41

was so critical to disseminate

3:41

the information that we did have

3:44

a lot of information was coming

3:44

out in inaccessible ways. And we

3:48

felt it was really important to

3:48

translate it into something that

3:50

more people could understand. So

3:50

that's why we have those,

3:53

when can or

3:53

should we use plain language?

3:57

I think we can use

3:57

plain language basically all the

3:59

time. And we should. That's not

3:59

to say we should never write in

4:03

formal or academic language. But

4:03

I feel that a plain language

4:06

version of a formal language

4:06

resource is always welcome and

4:09

appropriate. I think it's

4:09

especially critical to write in

4:13

plain language when you're

4:13

writing for a general audience.

4:15

And especially if you're writing

4:15

on topics that affect people

4:17

with disabilities, because you

4:17

want people to be able to access

4:21

information that's about them.

4:21

You know, in the self advocacy

4:23

movement, we say nothing about

4:23

us without us. And for too long

4:27

people with disabilities have

4:27

been excluded from conversations

4:29

about disability policy,

4:29

disability research, by

4:33

inaccessible language that's

4:33

used in those fields. And we

4:37

want to make sure that people

4:37

with disabilities can be

4:40

included in those conversations

4:40

and start to influence those

4:43

areas. And in order to do that

4:43

plain language is a really

4:46

critical aspect of that.

4:48

Who can ask for

4:48

plain language?

4:51

I think anyone can

4:51

ask for a plain language. If you

4:54

know that something is going to

4:54

be used by people with

4:57

disabilities and you're spotting

4:57

access barriers. A great thing

5:00

to do would be to raise it with

5:00

the people who wrote something

5:03

or offering a resource and say,

5:03

Can we put this in plain

5:06

language? Or is there a more

5:06

plain language version of this

5:08

we could offer? It's certainly

5:08

something that people with

5:12

disabilities can ask for as a

5:12

reasonable accommodation. But

5:15

it's also something that you can

5:15

ask for, as an ally to people

5:18

with disabilities.

5:19

Where can we ask

5:19

for plain language,

5:22

if you see, for

5:22

example, a public health agency

5:26

or a university or even your

5:26

workplace offering a written

5:30

resource, and it is confusing,

5:30

and you find it written in very

5:35

dense language are using a lot

5:35

of uncommon words, those might

5:38

be some examples of access

5:38

barriers and a written document.

5:42

And that's a great place to ask

5:42

for plain language. I find if

5:47

you're looking at a document

5:47

that like one person working

5:50

alone has written, that person

5:50

may not have the resources to do

5:54

the translation, you can still

5:54

ask them is there any way you

5:56

can put this in plain language,

5:56

but where I find you get the

6:00

most leverage is with like an

6:00

organization that has put out a

6:02

resource and organization is

6:02

likely to have more resources

6:05

that they can devote to translation?

6:07

Thank you. So

6:07

that leads me to my next

6:10

question, how do we ask for

6:10

plain language.

6:14

So there are several

6:14

ways you can do this. You can

6:17

say, I'm asking for this as a

6:17

reasonable accommodation for my

6:20

disability. The ADEA means that

6:20

we are entitled to reasonable

6:25

accommodations in many

6:25

circumstances. Plain Language

6:28

isn't something that is thought

6:28

of as like stock standard under

6:31

the ADEA in the same way that

6:31

some architectural features are.

6:34

But it is certainly an example

6:34

of an ADA reasonable

6:37

accommodation that you can

6:37

request. You can also just bring

6:43

data, bring information and say,

6:43

did you know that for something

6:49

to be accessible to the general

6:49

public, not even bringing in

6:51

people with disabilities, but

6:51

just the general public? It

6:54

should be at a six to eighth

6:54

grade reading level or lower? If

6:57

we want to reach the most people

6:57

possible? We should put this in

7:01

plainer language.

7:02

Does ASAN have

7:02

any resources available to help

7:05

creators out there use plain

7:05

language?

7:08

Yes, we do. So we

7:08

have a written resource that's

7:11

devoted to writing an easy read.

7:11

Easy read is a different

7:14

accessible format. That is uses

7:14

a little bit simpler language

7:18

than plain language. And it's

7:18

also picture assisted, we're not

7:20

going to get into easy read much

7:20

in this conversation. But we do

7:22

have that resource available.

7:22

It's called one idea per line.

7:26

And then, every year we do a

7:26

series of webinars with Sarthak,

7:30

which is the self advocacy

7:30

resources and technical

7:32

assistance center, where we

7:32

break down the basics of plain

7:37

language and easy read in these

7:37

webinars. In our plain language

7:40

webinar, we really thoroughly

7:40

cover the eight features of

7:43

plain language and give examples

7:43

of each and give examples of

7:47

people getting it wrong and how

7:47

to get it right. They're

7:49

interactive webinars. So people

7:49

can come and say, Oh, what about

7:52

this, or I think in that

7:52

example, the person has done

7:55

this wrong, and here's how I

7:55

would fix it, and just start to

7:58

flex those plain language

7:58

muscles. We have finished our

8:02

row in our series for the year,

8:02

but you can see recordings at

8:04

self advocacy info.org. And

8:04

that's where you can access our

8:09

webinars. Currently, we also

8:09

offer custom trainings for

8:12

groups or agencies. If folks

8:12

want to reach out to us to

8:17

access our trainings,

8:18

some critics of

8:18

plain language say that plain

8:21

language possibly lessens the

8:21

value of written content, and

8:25

has the potential to insult

8:25

professional readers. How would

8:28

you answer this criticism? I

8:28

think

8:30

those are two very

8:30

interesting criticisms. I would

8:34

say that the point of written

8:34

information is to communicate

8:37

something to someone. And the

8:37

more people who can understand

8:42

what you're saying, the better

8:42

you're doing at conveying

8:44

information. And if there are

8:44

access barriers with your

8:48

writing, and that includes

8:48

writing in formal language that

8:51

not everyone can understand. You

8:51

could be doing a better job

8:55

conveying information. Instead,

8:55

you're putting up roadblocks in

8:57

the way of information. So in

8:57

terms of the value of language,

9:01

I would say language is at its

9:01

most valuable when we are

9:03

communicating information

9:03

between each other and the best

9:06

way possible. And the best way

9:06

possible is the most inclusive

9:08

way possible. In terms of the

9:08

idea that plain language is

9:12

insulting to people who can read

9:12

at an academic level. I don't

9:18

really understand that idea. I

9:18

feel like it's like saying this

9:23

door has a wheelchair ramp up to

9:23

it but no stairs. That's

9:27

insulting to me because I could

9:27

walk up the stairs but there are

9:30

no stairs there. So now I have

9:30

to walk up the wheelchair ramp

9:32

that people who use wheelchairs

9:32

also use that insults me. I

9:36

don't I don't understand that so

9:36

much. I feel like you if you are

9:40

able to use plain language, then

9:40

it's not a hardship to do so. I

9:46

understand that it is different

9:46

and it takes getting used to.

9:50

Plain language writing for

9:50

example, is often more blunt

9:52

than writing in formal language

9:52

and it can be jarring to people

9:55

at first. But the difference is

9:55

of plain language. It doesn't

10:00

make it bad. It just makes it

10:00

not the way that you're used to

10:03

seeing information presented.

10:03

Something that you don't expect

10:06

until you start working with

10:06

plain language is the way that

10:09

formal language is set up to

10:09

hide things. Something that's

10:12

written in passive voice, for

10:12

example, is set up to hide who

10:14

is doing something. So if you

10:14

say Mistakes were made, it hides

10:17

the fact that you are the person

10:17

that made the mistakes. That's

10:20

just an example of ways that

10:20

more inaccessible writing

10:24

structures can be used to take

10:24

out information. So writing and

10:29

language, we often have to say

10:29

things like this government

10:33

agency caused this problem or to

10:33

not provide this access feature

10:39

is breaking the law, or similar

10:39

things like at end things, when

10:44

people read that they say that's

10:44

very harsh. Or Or like, it's

10:48

very blunt, it's it's not how I

10:48

would usually see that

10:51

information presented. But

10:51

really, the way it would

10:54

normally be presented is

10:54

implying that same thing, but

10:57

not stating it. And implying

10:57

stuff doesn't work so well for

11:01

an audience of people with intellectual developmental disabilities. Because what you

11:02

want to get get things out of

11:07

the subtext of what you're

11:07

saying and into the plain text

11:10

and make it more accessible. So

11:10

that's one reason why plain

11:13

language can be a little more

11:13

blunt. I have heard from people

11:16

who say that they find

11:16

information written academically

11:19

more accessible to them

11:19

personally than information in

11:21

plain language. I don't think

11:21

that's like a problem or a

11:25

failing of that person. But I do

11:25

think both should be available

11:29

to people. And I don't think

11:29

plain language in itself is like

11:32

an insult to readers.

11:34

What tips can

11:34

you give any creators listening

11:37

who want to start using plain

11:37

language in their content,

11:40

there are several tips I would give one is to start with as hands webinars on

11:42

plain language, which we've

11:44

spoken earlier about you can

11:44

find at self advocacy info.org.

11:48

And learn the eight features of

11:48

plain language, which include

11:52

using shorter sentences and

11:52

paragraphs using more common

11:55

words speaking in a

11:55

straightforward way, so avoiding

11:59

things like sarcasm, or

11:59

unexplained metaphors, avoiding

12:03

passive voice and other similar

12:03

principles. I would also

12:08

recommend learning by example.

12:08

So finding some plain language

12:12

resources, reading them, noting

12:12

how they do things a little bit

12:16

differently than resources

12:16

written in more formal language.

12:19

And then just practice, it's

12:19

okay to dive right in and like,

12:23

go find something on the

12:23

internet that's written formal

12:25

language, even like a news

12:25

article, look through it and

12:28

say, Where could this be more

12:28

plain language? Where are the

12:31

words being used that are

12:31

uncommon, and people are less

12:33

likely to know? Where are the

12:33

phrases that can be simplified?

12:36

Where's the convoluted sentence

12:36

structure, where's the passive

12:40

voice where all the things that

12:40

I could change in this and you

12:44

know, get started that way, it's

12:44

really fine to just experiment

12:48

and jump right in. And it's an

12:48

iterative process, you'll get

12:52

better at it as you go, I would

12:52

just give the tip that writing

12:54

in plain language, your stuff

12:54

can get longer. This confuses

12:57

people, they often expect stuff

12:57

to get shorter. But part of

13:01

writing in plain language can be

13:01

adding in information that

13:03

wasn't in your original

13:03

document. But that is useful

13:06

background information for

13:06

people who are approaching a

13:09

topic for the first time. So

13:09

that can add a lot of length,

13:13

in your opinion,

13:13

is plain language a civil right.

13:17

I think so plain

13:17

language is an access issue. And

13:20

I feel that people with disabilities have the civil right to access to information.

13:22

And that includes plain language

13:26

for many people.

13:27

What are some

13:27

current issues within the plain

13:29

language movement,

13:31

I feel like as plain

13:31

language becomes more recognized

13:34

and and more people are

13:34

interested in it, especially in

13:37

the disability field, it's

13:37

really important to emphasize

13:40

that self advocates should be

13:40

involved in the creation of

13:43

plain language resources. At

13:43

ASEAN, we have worked closely

13:48

with many self advocates with

13:48

intellectual disabilities, to

13:53

help us focus group and edit are

13:53

plain language and easy read

13:57

content. And we've learned a lot

13:57

about how to write in those

14:00

styles from our editors. We've

14:00

learned a lot about how

14:04

information can be presented in

14:04

a way that's most accessible to

14:06

them, how to present how to

14:06

structure the definition of the

14:11

term they don't know, for

14:11

example, or where to put

14:14

definitions of vocabulary terms

14:14

in a document. All of these are

14:17

examples of things that we have

14:17

changed our approach to because

14:20

of the guidance of our editors.

14:20

So I feel like that review step

14:26

is really important. There are

14:26

also more and more people with

14:29

disabilities who are learning to

14:29

be playing language writers

14:31

ourselves. And part of what ASN

14:31

does through StarTAC is help

14:34

train people with disabilities

14:34

in these skills. So if you're

14:37

looking for someone to do plain

14:37

language translation for you,

14:39

maybe reach out to a local self

14:39

advocacy group and see if that's

14:42

the service they offer. Self

14:42

Advocates Becoming Empowered

14:45

also have some plan language

14:45

resources, I believe available

14:47

on their website. Yeah, there's

14:47

lots of places to find resources

14:50

on this. If you're a journalist

14:50

or reporter I recommend the

14:53

plain truth project at plain

14:53

truth project.org which is

14:57

specifically a collaboration

14:57

between reporters and Pa Well,

15:00

disability is focusing on

15:00

encouraging plain language

15:04

reporting. And and that's kind

15:04

of like a new field that people

15:08

have started to explore,

15:08

especially when their reporting

15:11

focuses on people with

15:11

disabilities, and is just an

15:15

exciting development that I'm

15:15

happy to see

15:18

how can

15:18

listeners get involved and help

15:21

to make sure plain language is

15:21

available in their own

15:24

communities?

15:26

Yeah, so I would just say using the steps we've already discussed, learn, try

15:27

plain language for yourself.

15:30

Start noticing where academic

15:30

language is used and where

15:33

things could be translated.

15:33

Start requesting plain language

15:36

and places where you think it

15:36

should be made available either

15:40

because of resources for the

15:40

general public or specifically

15:42

for people with disabilities,

15:42

become awake to the wonderful

15:45

world that is plain language and

15:45

spot all the places that it can

15:49

be brought into your life.

15:51

All right, thank

15:51

you so much. So it's been a

15:53

pleasure speaking with you and

15:53

learning so much about plain

15:55

language. any resources that

15:55

Zoey has mentioned during the

15:59

podcast can be found in this

15:59

description below. Zoe, thank

16:02

you so much for being with us today.

16:04

Thank you for having me. It was great talking about plain language.

16:08

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