0:00

Famous Amos chocolate chip cookies are so

0:02

iconic that I just say Famous Amos

0:04

and it's like I can taste it.

0:06

Each cookie is filled with semi-sweet chocolate

0:08

chips and a satisfying crunch. And the

0:10

word satisfying is very key there because

0:12

some cookies are crunchy and brittle and

0:14

I don't like that. But Famous Amos

0:17

has a deep tooth sinkable satisfying crunch

0:19

that I know and love. And Famous

0:21

Amos classic bite size chocolate chip cookies

0:23

are bringing back the original recipe that

0:25

everyone knows and loves. One

0:27

perfect bite, everything classic in a cookie.

0:30

Find Famous Amos cookies anywhere you buy

0:32

your favorite snacks. We

0:36

also didn't have cereal with milk. So

0:39

I think- Your whole growing up, you never ate cereal with milk? I

0:41

still never have. No. You've never in

0:43

your life, how old are you? We're 27. This

0:46

is Laura and Beth, they're twin sisters

0:49

and they are very picky eaters. What's

0:52

another food that most people would consider

0:54

commonplace that you've never tried? How

0:56

much time do you have? All the time in the world. Do

0:58

you have any questions? All the time in the world. Cauliflower,

1:01

broccoli, peppers, squash,

1:04

pumpkins. What about mac and

1:06

cheese? Not really. Plain pasta

1:08

with butter? Not with butter, but I

1:10

like it with whatever red sauce that is. Have

1:12

you ever had soup? Just

1:14

like water with flavor. Doesn't

1:17

seem all that appetizing. No. Beth

1:20

and Laura grew up as picky eaters. That

1:22

was just fine with their parents. My

1:24

parents met at a talent show

1:26

for accountants. This is already the

1:28

best beginning of a story that's ever been told in life.

1:30

I know. They're so excellent. My dad

1:32

was the writer of the show. My mom had tried

1:35

to come in to play the bassoon, but they forced

1:37

her to be a dancer because she was just tall.

1:40

And he asked her out on a date and

1:42

they went on their first date to McDonald's. And

1:45

apparently back at the time

1:47

they went at McDonald's, like you couldn't be like, I

1:49

want pickles and this and this. They just gave you

1:52

a hamburger. You couldn't have it your way. Have

1:55

it your way might actually be the Burger King slogan,

1:57

but let's ask the hairs. You get the idea. Anyway,

2:00

they got their burgers. They both sit

2:02

down from across from each other. They like

2:04

unwrap it. And they both pulled open the

2:06

burgers and wiped off. As my dad would

2:08

still call it to this day, green stuff,

2:10

all of the pickles, all of the relish,

2:12

like anything on there, cause they don't eat

2:14

it at all. They both wiped it off

2:16

at the same time. And

2:20

we're like, this is it. That's how they knew.

2:22

They gazed into each other's eyes. That's what our

2:24

father says, yeah. In that

2:26

moment. Yeah, they knew. That

2:28

was love. They're

2:30

like, my parents found in each other that

2:33

they were picky eaters, which is I think

2:35

more intense of a kindred, fear-edness

2:38

than people might realize. If you're not a picky eater,

2:40

you don't realize how important it would be to

2:43

be with a fellow picky eater. This

2:48

is the Sporkful. If not for foodies, it's

2:50

for eaters. I'm Dan Paschman. Each week on

2:52

our show, we obsess about food to learn

2:54

more about people. I've already kicked

2:56

off my Sporkful live, anything's possible tour. Thank you so

2:58

much to everyone who's come out. It's been great to

3:00

meet so many of you in person. Next

3:02

up, we got DC tomorrow night, April

3:04

2nd with Patti Hinnich, can't wait for

3:06

that. Then Philly at WHYY with Kehlani

3:08

Palmasano. And I was gonna say Boston,

3:10

but the Boston show is already sold

3:12

out. And the tickets for these other

3:15

shows are going fast. San Francisco, Seattle,

3:17

LA, get your tickets now at sporkful.com

3:19

slash tour. And of course you can still order

3:21

my cookbook, Anything's Possible, it's out now, wherever books

3:23

are sold. I did especially love the

3:25

review from Library Journal. They said, if Willy Wonka

3:27

and Alton Brown collaborated on the pasta cookbook, the

3:29

end result might be something like this, revolutionary in

3:31

all the right ways. So that was very nice.

3:34

Thank you, Library Journal. And of course, if you

3:36

wanna know more about the making of this book,

3:38

go back and check out our special series about

3:40

the making of Anything's Possible right here on the

3:42

Sporkful, it's up now. All

3:44

right, let's get to today's show. Laura

3:46

and Beth are the twin sisters you heard at the beginning. And

3:48

you were listening to them from the story of their parents. What'd

3:51

you think of them? Is there some party that

3:53

judged them, maybe just a little? Did you

3:55

feel sorry for them? Or were you like,

3:58

yes, finally, the Sporkful is featuring people. just

4:00

like me! We'll get ready

4:02

because today we're exploring what it's like to

4:04

go through life as a picky eater. And

4:06

we'll ask, why do picky eaters face so

4:08

much judgment? Laura and Beth

4:10

are fraternal twins, not identical, which is important

4:12

to note here as we tell their story.

4:14

The truth is that research on picky eating

4:16

is still pretty limited, and the area that's

4:18

especially unknown is the role of DNA in

4:20

determining our eating preferences. It's safe

4:22

to say it's some combination of nature and nurture, but how

4:25

much of it is each one and how do the two

4:27

interact? We really don't know. These

4:29

days, Laura and Beth live in different cities. When

4:31

they were kids, the dinner menu at home in

4:33

the Chicago suburbs was pretty limited. We

4:35

would have a rotation of chicken,

4:38

turkey, every

4:40

now and again ham, wild night,

4:43

I'm missing pork chops, a

4:45

pizza once a week, and

4:47

then like a red meat. A lot of the

4:50

times in high school, Beth and I were in

4:52

a lot of extracurriculars and we would stay

4:55

till 9 p.m. and

4:57

my mom would drop off our dinner for

4:59

us, which was often a carnival pretzel. That

5:01

would be our

5:04

dinner. Big, fresh, baked, soft

5:06

pretzels. Yes, frozen and then

5:08

heated up. De-frosted. Yeah, from a

5:10

Sam's Club, we would just buy giant boxes

5:12

of these pretzels and those would be our

5:14

dinner, like a pretzel and some grapes and

5:16

some Cheez-Its. What did you eat

5:18

at Thanksgiving? Turkey. Turkey, but

5:21

oftentimes bought from, what's

5:23

that place? Boston Market. So

5:26

Thanksgiving, imagine a lot of plastic

5:29

containers for your opening and reheating

5:31

things. You're like, thank God, Boston

5:33

Market is around because

5:35

no one wanted to cook this. This

5:38

approach to eating that you guys grew up with,

5:40

was it discussed? Was it something you were all

5:42

aware of growing up? I don't

5:44

really think we really realized that

5:46

we were picky eaters because you

5:49

go over to a friend's house and it was a special thing

5:51

if you stayed for dinner. So most of the time it was

5:53

like pizza or you know, you stayed because

5:55

you knew what they were having and you liked what they

5:57

were having. Right. I think you can just go. so

6:00

long as a kid going from like pizza

6:02

party to pizza party, that you

6:04

think a larger percentage of people are just eating

6:07

pizza all the time. Like, you're like,

6:09

well, that's what I have, like every other weekend at

6:11

these birthday parties. Right, so I would definitely say around

6:13

like 16, 17, when people would be

6:15

like, you know, in our suburban

6:18

town, they'd be like, let's drive to the

6:20

Panera. And you realize they're just like ordering

6:24

anything, soups, I never had a soup. You know, I'm

6:26

like, how do you know you like soup? Like

6:29

really realizing. But

6:31

so, but I get the impression that it was

6:33

almost like a point of pride for your parents.

6:36

It is for my dad. My

6:38

dad has definitely equated

6:40

pickiness with simplicity, which

6:43

he's a great guy, but I

6:45

just, I don't think that's necessarily

6:48

accurate. You can have a really simple salad

6:51

with three ingredients and it can still be delicious

6:53

and simple. Right, so Lara,

6:55

just to sort of illustrate what

6:58

life was like growing up and your dad, in

7:01

particular, his approach to the picky eater's

7:03

lifestyle, you have brought in a cookbook.

7:06

I have. A family heirloom, looks

7:08

like. A treasure. Only

7:10

10 were made. It's called Dad's

7:12

Personal Favorites, the Clean Oven Cookbook.

7:15

This cookbook Beth and Lara's dad made, it looks like

7:18

it was printed at Kinko's. He made it as a

7:20

joke, it was a gift for family members. But

7:23

it also sort of plays as a picky

7:25

eater's manifesto. The dedication is

7:27

dedicated to those who have enjoyed my cooking

7:29

all of these years and

7:31

others who may appreciate a unique,

7:34

epicureate approach that embraces the concepts

7:36

of simplicity, simplicity, simplicity and

7:38

no sauces. Yeah,

7:41

it's one of the best presents I've ever

7:43

gotten for sure. So the section, so there's

7:46

a first chapter, appetizers. Dad's

7:48

appetizer advice. Don't waste stomach space on an

7:50

appetizer with all the good stuff to come.

7:54

There are no appetizers. I

7:57

mean, unless you're gonna get like a pretzel roll.

8:00

No point. Walk me through the

8:02

next section here, Lara. Sure. The

8:04

first entree is the cheese sandwich. So

8:07

we have my dad holding a loaf

8:09

of rye bread and craft American singles

8:11

in his photo. Step one,

8:14

make sure rye bread is fresh and has plenty of seeds.

8:17

I'm surprised he goes for the seeds. I

8:19

know. The one thing my

8:22

dad likes these days are radishes.

8:24

Does that seem strange?

8:27

It is because they're spicy when you just bite into

8:29

them like that. Yeah, it's surprising. Are they? I've

8:32

never had one. Beth doesn't know. Okay,

8:35

second page. I love that

8:37

the final recipe in quotes is Oreos. And

8:41

it says, enjoy the perfect cookie as Nabisco and

8:43

God intended. Yield 30

8:45

Oreos equals two servings. Yeah. Like,

8:48

oh, God, that's terrible. Way too

8:50

many. Way too many for a

8:53

serving. So you get

8:55

the idea. Laura and Beth not only grew

8:57

up as picky eaters with picky eater parents,

8:59

but picky eating was a part of their

9:02

family identity. When it came

9:04

time to go to college, Beth and Laura chose

9:06

different paths. Beth decided to commute

9:08

to school and continue living at home with their

9:10

parents. Laura went away to

9:12

college and lived on campus. That's

9:15

when she first encountered a strange new world,

9:17

the dining hall. And so

9:20

there are all of these other women my

9:22

age who just like knew how to make

9:24

these glorious salads. And I,

9:26

again, it was like the same with soup. I just

9:28

didn't even know how you knew what to put in

9:30

a salad. Like salads are very mysterious to me. So

9:33

just sit at these meals with these people who

9:35

had all these options and not only were just

9:38

like, because you could order something from a grill,

9:40

but they could go beyond that. They could like

9:42

ask for what they wanted. They were like, I

9:44

like this meat and this cheese and this vegetable

9:46

together. And I had no idea

9:49

like what combinations the

9:52

general public agrees are good

9:54

combinations of like a food,

9:56

like a Reuben. I wouldn't have been able to put

9:58

that together myself. So it was clear to

10:00

me like they knew what they were hungry

10:03

for and could listen to their body in a way

10:05

that I had not yet developed. Right. And

10:07

they had been exposed to enough different foods and eaten

10:09

up different foods that they had some sort of like

10:11

wealth of experience to draw from. Exactly.

10:14

But then came the night of the quesadilla.

10:18

My turning point was a night where I didn't have

10:20

anything to eat and I'd gone out with some people

10:22

from my acapella group. We'd gone to

10:24

Whole Foods and I had bought a

10:26

quesadilla. And in my mind, a quesadilla, I could

10:28

handle that. It was just like a chicken one,

10:30

so chicken and cheese. And then it came

10:32

with all of this stuff I

10:34

was not expecting on the inside. And that sort of

10:37

green stuff as your dad might call it. Green stuff

10:39

as my dad might call it. And

10:41

I was picking through it single-handedly pulling out

10:43

like a mushroom or a pepper, whatever was

10:45

in there. And my friends

10:47

were just like looking at me with such pity.

10:50

And I was like, I just don't want to live my

10:52

life like this. I want to be able to eat this

10:54

quesadilla. So it sounds to me

10:57

what you're saying, Laura, is that it was

10:59

more social pressure than some sort

11:01

of desire to be like a culinary explorer. Yeah,

11:05

I think that's true. You weren't like, I want to taste

11:07

all the dishes the world has to offer. It was more like, I want

11:09

to hang out with these people. Yeah, I want to hang

11:11

out with these people. And I think I

11:13

wanted to be less afraid. So then from

11:15

then I started just trying things that

11:17

people would like in my sorority house, if

11:19

people would order Chinese food, I

11:22

might like try a piece of chicken or something like

11:24

that. And then there was someone inviting

11:26

me out to sushi, which was to

11:29

me, sushi was like my white whale.

11:32

And I only had one or two because I was

11:34

like very nervous. So I was

11:36

very nervous. But I

11:38

and I had the very like

11:41

Western E1, you know, the ones with like

11:44

cream cheese. Right. Like

11:46

I had one of those to start. I

11:49

remember being a little uncomfortable

11:51

with the texture and being like,

11:53

oh, it's so like kind of

11:56

mushy. And

11:58

I tried sushi. intermittently over

12:01

the few years until recently,

12:04

within the last year, my boyfriend, we went back

12:06

to his college and he was like, let's just

12:08

try some sushi again. And I

12:10

did and this time I was like, oh, I get it. Now

12:13

I'm having the crab roll eel.

12:19

In the 15 years since Laura first walked into

12:22

that campus dining hall, she's gotten more and more

12:24

adventurous. She later moved to New York City and

12:26

then LA trying new foods in both places. But

12:29

what about Beth? As I said, she commuted

12:31

to college and continued to live with her picky eating

12:33

parents. She didn't have a meal plan or all

12:35

you can eat dining hall. She had to buy her lunch a la

12:37

carte. You know, I don't want to get something and then not like

12:39

it. So I normally just

12:41

stuck with my turkey sandwich with

12:43

warm bacon every day. And the

12:46

people actually knew my order. I'd

12:48

come up in line, they go the usual and I'd say, yep.

12:51

And so what do you have for lunch now? I

12:53

have a mixture of Cheerios, carrots, strawberries

12:56

or grapes and some pretzels. Beth,

12:58

when you hear Laura talking about

13:01

the sushi that she's eating, how do you feel about

13:03

that? I'm happy that she's happy.

13:05

I mean, as she said earlier, the whole food

13:07

thing was never a big deal

13:09

because it brought everyone together. So,

13:11

you know, she's eating

13:13

sushi great. If she enjoys it, it doesn't matter

13:15

to me. I'm just happy that she found more food

13:18

she likes. I mean, that's something as someone

13:20

who's a picky eater. I don't care if you

13:22

like the food. If it makes you happy, great.

13:24

It just doesn't make me happy. Other

13:26

things make me happy. Like

13:28

puzzles. Yes, jigsaw puzzles.

13:31

So is there any food, Beth, that makes you

13:33

really happy? Oh, I love a

13:36

good chips and salsa, but only to just

13:38

eat those chunky medium salsa. Oh,

13:41

nothing, Bunt Cake, Bunt Cakes. Have you ever

13:43

had one of those? Those are amazing. Oh,

13:45

what's the bagel place near you that we...

13:47

Oh, I brought Beth to absolute bagels on

13:49

like one hundred and seven. OK. Yum.

13:53

She had, I mean, a bagel with turkey

13:55

and bacon. It was really great. And so,

13:58

Beth, do you look forward to meals? I

14:00

mean, it depends on who's at set meal. When

14:03

everyone is home, when we were all home a couple

14:05

weeks ago for the holidays, meals were great and they

14:07

were super fun. So my brother and his wife would

14:09

cook, my sister would eat it and then I'd have

14:11

something else. You know, it was great.

14:14

But Beth says most of the time she doesn't look

14:16

forward to going out to eat. We

14:18

went to a restaurant a couple weeks ago for

14:20

our birthday and I always get, we go to

14:22

the Cheesecake Factory and I always get two

14:25

grilled chicken breasts plain with a side

14:27

of french fries. That's my favorite. And

14:31

the waitress was like, is

14:33

this all you're going to eat? Like, don't you want more

14:35

food? This won't fill you up. And she was just

14:37

like very aggressive because my mom and I both ordered

14:39

the same thing. And we

14:41

were kind of like, no, we're good. We're good. And

14:44

it's really uncomfortable when stuff like that happens.

14:46

Or I mean, people I

14:48

know pointed out to other people. So

14:51

like, I went to a lunch, I

14:53

went to a lunch with some co-workers and

14:56

another person and somebody completely pointed it out

14:58

to everybody what I had chosen to eat,

15:00

which was I thought uncalled for. But I

15:02

was like, oh, yeah, you know, this is

15:04

what I like. And I just

15:06

wish people wouldn't do that because it makes me kind

15:08

of anxious to go out with anybody because it's like,

15:10

oh, if I don't know the person, if I don't

15:12

know some of their friends, are they going to point

15:14

it out to more people? Beth

15:21

says she has no interest in trying new

15:23

foods in following Laura's path. She's

15:25

happy eating what she eats. She just wishes

15:27

people would leave her alone about it. I

15:29

just avoid the topic of food because

15:32

sometimes you get alienated when you are

15:34

a picky eater. And so my defense

15:36

has always been to avoid

15:38

and to change the subject. If I could, I would

15:40

just take a pill where I didn't have to eat

15:42

anything. So it'd be like, take a pill and I'd

15:44

be full all day. And I would be like a

15:46

comfortable full. And then I wouldn't have to worry about

15:48

it. Why would that

15:50

be preferable? Because then

15:52

no one would judge me. What

15:55

do you think they think of you? that

16:00

I don't have great taste in food would

16:02

be my thought. I mean, I don't

16:05

think it changes their opinion of me. I just

16:07

think it's another facet to my personality. I

16:10

think people think it's

16:12

childish as well. Oh.

16:16

No, that makes the truth comes out.

16:18

I think people think it's childish. Yeah,

16:20

because it's taken I think it's taken

16:23

me a long time to not see

16:25

it as childishness. My growth in enjoying

16:27

food so perfectly like aligned with me

16:29

getting older. But it's

16:31

still when I look back like it happened so

16:33

much later. It happened later in my life than a lot of

16:35

people like most people don't wait till they're 21. Well,

16:37

yeah, but I always ask me like oh you

16:40

must have grown up and like it's been obsessed

16:42

with food. But like yes, I always even as

16:44

a kid. I always loved to eat. I got

16:46

a lot of pleasure from eating but I was

16:48

not an especially adventurous eater. I

16:50

was well into my 30s before I liked plain

16:52

tomatoes. Anything like mustard,

16:55

olives, pickles, those kind of like or spicy

16:57

foods. Any kind of like those strong sharp

16:59

acidic or bitter or hot flavors I didn't

17:01

like until at least my mid 30s. And

17:04

it was only when I made a concerted effort. I was kind of like I got to

17:06

a point in my life where I was like you

17:08

know like you get burnt out on your music like I need

17:10

a new playlist or something. I got like that

17:12

with food. So I made a concerted effort to

17:14

start to get used to eating more different things. But

17:17

I wasn't like that when I was young. I

17:20

could have eaten egg and cheese sandwiches for weeks. What

17:23

I'm really curious about to

17:25

explore in this in our conversation here in this and

17:27

in this series that we're doing is why

17:30

though. Like why

17:32

does it matter like if you're healthy if you're going

17:34

to the doctor and the doctor says you're fine. Then

17:38

why does it matter. I'm

17:41

curious to try to understand where that judgment

17:43

comes from. Do you have a theory

17:45

Laura? Well I think people

17:47

always just want to share something

17:50

that they love with you. Like I'm

17:52

enjoying this avocado toast

17:55

with my pickled onion so much.

17:57

Like I just want Beth to have a.

18:00

so we could experience this together. And that

18:02

is a, I've learned a

18:04

sort of a selfish way of like Beth will

18:06

definitely not get the same

18:08

pleasure out of this thing that I'm eating. As

18:13

Lara continues to try more new foods,

18:15

her eating habits move further away from

18:17

Beth and their parents. That

18:19

family identity of picky eating, that's

18:22

not Lara's identity anymore. Over

18:25

Christmas, she was really craving Magnolia Bakery's

18:27

banana pudding. She decided to make it

18:29

for everyone. She knew Beth and

18:31

their parents wouldn't like it. The picky side of

18:33

the family doesn't eat bananas. So

18:35

for them, Lara made a separate batch

18:37

of quote unquote banana pudding, except it

18:39

had no bananas. And instead of

18:42

the traditional Nilla wafers, she used Oreos.

18:44

Because as you'll recall, her dad considers

18:46

Oreos to be the perfect food. So

18:48

he promised to try it. So

18:50

he did try it. He just didn't think it was as good

18:53

as a regular Oreo. And how did that make you feel?

18:55

Like I had it coming because if

18:58

you are a member of a family, where

19:00

people don't like to try new foods,

19:02

like you're never going to make something that

19:06

changes that. So so

19:08

why Lara, why did you make this banana pudding

19:10

dish, knowing on some level

19:12

that the family wasn't going to like it? Well,

19:14

I thought if I could change every single

19:16

ingredient to be not what Magnolia Bakery makes,

19:19

actually, that they might enjoy it. And it

19:21

just felt like if I could be sitting

19:23

there eating my banana pudding, and you could

19:25

be sitting there eating your chocolate pudding, but

19:27

I'd made them both. And they're both in

19:30

the same idea. Then we're almost eating the

19:32

same thing. And

19:34

we can like, look at each other and be like,

19:37

this is good. We're having the same meal

19:39

and agree and like, agree on something that's

19:41

good. We thought that you guys would connect over it.

19:43

Yeah, I did. That's what you were hoping for. I thought

19:45

that we would connect over it. Because the

19:47

more that I eat and get connection with

19:49

other people, the more I've started to like

19:51

crave it with my family. We have many other

19:53

things we connect over. But it

19:56

feels like such a big giant. thing

20:00

in my life that I no longer like it

20:03

feels like an absence in my family that could

20:05

be filled if I make the

20:07

right pudding. One

20:18

note to add, as I said we still don't know

20:20

how much of our eating habits are nature and how

20:22

much are nurture. Maybe Beth was just

20:24

born a culinary homebody. She could be the type

20:26

who prefers to stay in her comfort zone or

20:29

maybe change of environment would make a difference.

20:33

Lara and Beth do have a brother, Michael,

20:35

and his story is similar to Lara's. He

20:37

grew up picky, went away to college, got

20:39

into food. When he got

20:41

married recently, Lara gave a toast at the wedding.

20:43

She said, according to my parents, the first thing

20:46

Michael ever did wrong was to try sushi.

20:49

The second thing he ever did wrong was to like

20:51

it. Coming

20:54

up, we'll turn our attention to the most common

20:56

group of picky eaters, kids. I'll

20:58

talk with an expert who treats picky eaters

21:00

and yeah we'll talk about some of his

21:03

techniques but the big question I have is,

21:05

is picky eating actually even

21:07

a problem? Stick around. Time

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it's quite a ride and i hope you'll join

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me on it all four episodes of right in

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your feed, check it out. Now

26:02

back to the show. So

26:06

Laura and Beth helped us understand what it's like to

26:08

be a picky eater as an adult. Now

26:11

we'll turn our attention to kids and the people

26:13

who feed them. Because I can tell you as

26:15

a parent myself, it's stressful when a kid refuses

26:17

to eat anything half healthy. It's hard when you

26:19

go to a restaurant or someone else's house for

26:21

dinner and your kid won't eat anything there. Picky

26:24

eating is a big source of stress

26:26

for parents. Now I want to be clear

26:28

here at the top, for the purposes of

26:30

this conversation, we aren't talking about the most

26:32

acute cases where a kid may be losing

26:34

weight or malnourished or where there's a more

26:36

serious underlying issue like OCD, autism or pico,

26:38

which is a disorder where people eat things

26:40

like dirt or paint. We're talking

26:43

here about kids who are otherwise healthy, but they're

26:45

just really picky eaters. Chris

26:47

Rut knows the type. He holds a PhD

26:49

in clinical psychology and works at the Boston

26:51

Child Study Center. When he was a postdoc,

26:53

parents would bring him kids with all kinds

26:55

of psychological behavioral issues. One of the big

26:58

ones he saw treated a lot was picky

27:00

eating. As an issue, he knows well.

27:03

I was a pretty picky eater when I was a kid

27:05

and now I listen to

27:07

your podcast every week and love

27:09

bragging about my kids eating fancy

27:11

foods over other people's kids. I'm

27:13

just kidding. Well, it

27:16

sounds like you're definitely a great parent, Chris.

27:19

Well, I have a lot of pressure based on

27:21

what my profession is. Right. Yeah, that's true. Totally.

27:23

It's like, man, I got to be careful about

27:25

what parties I go to because if my kids

27:27

aren't acting the way they need to, people are

27:29

going to start eyeballing me. Right. Because

27:32

you're a general specialist in all kinds of childhood

27:34

behavior, there's really no escape for you. There's

27:36

none. There's none at all. Chris,

27:42

how has having kids

27:44

yourself changed the

27:46

way you talk to

27:48

parents who are dealing with picky

27:50

eaters? I think that when I

27:52

walk in and I sit down with a family and

27:54

I talk about having to put My

27:57

daughter in timeout because of the craziness she

27:59

was doing. there's a little bit of like

28:01

yeah for been there man like so we

28:03

know what it's like. a morale are I

28:05

guy in a lot of by and from

28:07

that. Chris. Is quick to stress

28:09

that there's no single solution for picky eating.

28:11

He would sit with families to understand what's

28:13

happening at meal times and offer various strategies

28:16

for for one kid may not work for

28:18

another. Sometimes it's a control issue, some has.

28:20

it's sensory. The child may struggle with certain

28:22

textures and study suggests a kid may have

28:24

to try a food thirty or forty times

28:26

before learning to like it. Am. I

28:28

right Chris. That. Picky.

28:31

Eating. Certainly. Among

28:33

three, four, five, six year

28:35

olds is actually considered. Normal.

28:38

I guess so common that it's considered normal.

28:40

Yeah, I think that's I think you could

28:42

make that claim. I think you know when

28:44

we look at the research out there, we

28:46

don't have a a perfect sense of what

28:48

the true prevalences. But if you know he

28:50

could be as high as fifty percent or

28:52

more of kids, especially in that age range,

28:55

you hit it right on the.words kids from

28:57

three to six tends to be the highest

28:59

risk and see you could potentially make an

29:01

argument right if it's thirty percent the kids.

29:03

what is normal and is it just makes

29:05

sense that kids at that rent at that

29:07

at that. Age level to go through

29:10

this period of time where they

29:12

have some difficulties or aversion to

29:14

new foods and. And that's

29:16

kind of how it. how goes Well, It

29:18

certainly makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint to

29:20

me. For circulars, the kids. The kids were

29:23

walking through the forest eating every berry and

29:25

mushroom than they pass are gonna last long.

29:27

So it makes sense of the ones who

29:29

who are more cautious would be the ones

29:32

who would survive and thrive for sure. Absolutely.

29:34

So why is picky eating a

29:36

problem? academics would argue

29:39

that i'm here there's a potential

29:41

for picky eating having some long

29:44

term consequences ray and especially know

29:46

growing up in an age where

29:48

the a pediatric obesity is a

29:51

significant problems what role does picky

29:53

eating playing in that deserves some

29:55

arguments that picky eating is a

29:58

pretty it's it's it's trait that

30:00

can continue on into older ages and

30:02

adolescents and maybe even adulthood and does

30:04

that play a role? And I don't

30:06

think we can answer that yet, right?

30:09

So from my end when I work with families, I

30:11

try to frame it more of like, how distressed

30:13

does this make kids and parents and how much

30:16

does it interfere in their daily life? So

30:20

there are two main reasons to worry about

30:22

picky eating and an otherwise healthy child. One,

30:25

it could lead to unhealthy habits as an

30:27

adult and two, it creates

30:29

stress for parents and by association,

30:31

kids. Let's take these in order.

30:34

And there's a fair amount of research that one

30:36

of the biggest factors that determines what you eat

30:38

as an adult is what you see your parents

30:41

eating when you're a kid. In

30:43

fact, Chris says if he had to choose

30:45

between a child eating more vegetables at a

30:47

young age or seeing the parents eating more

30:49

vegetables, you take the parents. So

30:52

even if your kids eat very few veggies now,

30:54

if you can get them to try even just

30:56

a tiny bit of healthy food over time, help

30:58

them work their way to those 30 or 40

31:00

tastes while modeling healthy

31:02

eating for them, the research says that in

31:04

the long run, they should be fine. Second

31:08

issue, picky eating creates stress for parents and

31:10

kids. But as I told Chris, it

31:13

seems to me the only reason it creates stress

31:15

is that parents are convinced it's a problem. Chris,

31:19

I want to read a quote to

31:22

you from a paper in Current

31:24

Opinion and Psychiatry. The paper is

31:26

called Picky Eating, the Current State of Research. And

31:30

there is a line in here that says, a recent

31:33

study has confirmed previous findings of

31:35

an association between child picky eating

31:37

behavior and maternal mental

31:40

health and self-esteem. And

31:43

it says this is based on the idea

31:45

that seeing their child eat enough was central

31:47

to being a successful parent for

31:49

many of these parents. Unpack that

31:51

for me a little bit. I'll do my best.

31:54

I want to put the disclaimer that I don't

31:56

have that paper in front of me and I'm

31:58

not sure if I read that one or not.

32:00

But, you know. I had to kind of hypothesize

32:02

as far as what I think is going on

32:04

there, right, is as parents, right,

32:07

and I have three kids, you know, a big part

32:09

of our identity is our children, and

32:11

we want them to be successful, and we

32:13

want them to do the right things,

32:16

and we want them to be happy

32:18

and healthy. And so if I had

32:20

a child who wasn't eating

32:22

up to the standards that I expected,

32:25

or was causing a lot of these

32:27

behavior problems because of food, that's increased

32:29

stress, and we know the things that

32:31

we know of mental

32:34

health, a precursor of mental health is

32:36

the amount of stress that we as

32:38

individuals encounter on a daily basis. So

32:41

I definitely could see that if

32:44

you have a picky eater as a

32:46

child, and this is a consistent and

32:48

persistent problem, that that could really

32:51

increase the amount of stress for

32:53

a parent and potentially result in

32:55

a parent

32:57

having their own difficulties with some mental

32:59

health problems. So then how

33:02

much of the treatment for picky eating is to

33:04

find tips and tricks to get the kid to

33:06

eat more, and how much should be to explain

33:09

to the parent that actually maybe in

33:11

some cases it's not a big deal?

33:13

Oh, I think both. I

33:15

think a big part of my

33:18

role and my colleague's role is

33:20

trying to provide that education piece,

33:23

because being a parent is hard, and

33:25

most of the ways that we learn how to be a

33:27

parent is from trial and error,

33:30

or from conversations with other parents. People

33:33

always say, you know, there's no book on raising

33:35

a child, which is... Actually,

33:37

I think there's like several hundred million books. There's

33:40

so many of them. It's a

33:42

billion dollar industry. There's so many

33:44

of them. The problem is not, Chris, that there's no book on how

33:47

to raise a child. The problem is there are too many. I

33:50

would agree. That's a whole different problem, right? It's like,

33:52

how do I pick the best one? So that's

33:55

the part of my job that I really enjoy is

33:57

how can I step into that role? role

34:00

and help guide families in a direction

34:02

based on evidence and research that hopefully

34:04

is helpful and can reduce some of

34:06

those problems and stress at home. This

34:09

could be a very normal process that your child is

34:11

going through. A lot of kids experience it. I

34:14

guess part of what I'm stuck on

34:16

here, Chris, is that I

34:18

feel like there's

34:20

an underlying assumption under

34:22

the discussion around picky eating that

34:28

even if your kid is otherwise healthy, if

34:31

they're just picky, even at an age when it's

34:33

very common to be picky, that that is a

34:35

problem. The

34:37

underlying assumption there is that somehow it's the

34:39

parents fault that they have failed to unlock

34:41

this puzzle. They have failed to use the

34:43

right technique. There's a

34:45

lot of judgment of parents that parents feel like somehow

34:47

they have failed if their child is not eating a

34:49

diverse diet. By

34:52

the opposite token, I often see parents who have

34:54

kids who are adventurous eaters bragging about how their

34:56

kids eat so many different things as if that

34:58

somehow makes their child more virtuous

35:00

or makes them a better parent. I

35:03

really want to push back against that

35:06

underlying assumption. Fair. Yeah, I got

35:08

your back on this one, Dan. I

35:10

think as parents, there is a

35:12

little piece of the Keeping Up With The

35:15

Joneses where we don't want

35:17

to look like the embarrassment

35:19

or the failure that we can't

35:21

get our kids to eat quinoa because they

35:23

really just like eating hot dogs. But

35:29

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you guys

35:31

as a family are fine and you

35:34

don't have concerns from a nutritional standpoint and

35:36

you feel like this isn't going to be

35:38

a persistent problem over time, so

35:40

be it. Enjoy it and have fun. Yeah,

35:43

and also cut kids some slack. I

35:45

mean, look, there's a lot of vegetables

35:47

that I like now. I

35:49

love a good head of broccoli like olive

35:51

oil and salt roasted at a high heat

35:54

so it gets charred around the florets,

35:56

but then it's also still crunchy in the center. And

35:59

then I'll take it out of the way. out of

36:01

the oven and sprinkle a little sea salt and I'll

36:03

squeeze some lemon juice on and give it some tang

36:05

and mix it all around. And that is really delicious,

36:07

but it still does not hold a candle to a

36:10

hot dog. I mean, come

36:12

on, kid. They're like, parents, like your

36:14

kids cut them some slack, you know.

36:18

So Chris, it would

36:20

be the obvious thing to do,

36:23

to end this interview by me asking you

36:25

to give us some tips, Chris. Give us

36:27

some news you can use. But

36:30

I'm really, really not

36:33

wanting to do that. I

36:36

don't want to because then I will

36:38

only be reinforcing the idea that picky

36:40

eating is a problem that parents should

36:42

address by employing some new technique. How

36:46

old are your kids, Chris? I have three.

36:48

I have a seven-year-old, a three-year-old, and a

36:50

three-month-old. Well, we'll

36:52

set the three-month-old aside because I assume

36:54

that he or she is still on

36:57

a pretty limited diet. She's a super picky

36:59

eater. She will only drink milk from her

37:02

mom. They're so difficult.

37:04

Am I right? I'm right below. So

37:09

do you notice different eating habits between

37:11

a seven-year-old and a three-year-old? Oh

37:13

my God, absolutely. Like what? Dramatically

37:16

different. I mean, my

37:18

son who's seven is like the rule follower,

37:20

you know, doesn't ever want to

37:22

get in trouble, always wants to do things right.

37:25

He's also super adventurous in his eating. Like

37:27

he's the one who we don't really have

37:29

to have problems with trying to get him

37:31

to taste new foods. Right. He's

37:33

a better kid. I get it. Okay,

37:36

go on. My

37:38

daughter who's three, she's the firecracker.

37:40

She's the one who will look

37:43

you dead in the eye and pour her milk all over

37:45

the table just to get a

37:47

reaction out of you. She

37:51

keeps me on my toes and keeps me

37:53

up to date with some of my strategies

37:55

for helping parents. So it's been

37:57

a fun challenge. about

38:00

a time that you tried one of your techniques and

38:02

it failed and you threw it out the window. The

38:05

biggest failure that I do all the time is

38:07

using dessert as a motivator for eating the foods

38:09

that I want them to eat. And all

38:12

the literature says, don't do that, because

38:14

all it's doing is making them really

38:16

like the dessert and just knuckle through

38:18

that terrible experience of whatever that vegetable

38:20

is. But we still sometimes use

38:22

that. Well, sometimes it's not true. We use that

38:24

a lot. Because

38:27

it's such a strong motivator. It's like,

38:29

hey, we're going to have this nice, sweet treat.

38:32

I just want you to try this little tiny bite of food

38:34

and just try to get them over that hump of that initial,

38:37

just take that tiny little bite. That's

38:50

Chris Rutt, he's a clinical psychologist in Boston.

38:53

Next week on The Sporkful, ahead of Passover,

38:55

I talk with Naama Sheffy about documenting Jewish

38:58

food from around the world. That work includes

39:00

her new cookbook, The Jewish Holiday Table. That's

39:02

next week. By the way, for

39:04

that one, check out our series Anything's Possible about the

39:06

making of my cookbook. All four episodes are in your

39:08

feed right now. Of course, you can also buy the

39:10

cookbook right now. Go to

39:12

sporkful.com/book for more info. There's

39:15

even signed copies there. Again,

39:17

sporkful.com/book. And if you want

39:19

to eat your way across Italy the way

39:21

I do in Anything's Possible, I have teamed

39:23

up with the folks at Culinary Backstreet to

39:25

create a food tour of Italy, hitting a

39:27

lot of the same spots we feature in

39:29

the series with many of the same people.

39:31

Sign up for this tour and you'll eat

39:33

in Rome with Katie Parla, cook in Lecce

39:35

with Silvestro Silvestori, and eat spaghetti all'assassina in

39:38

Bari with me. Come eat pasta in Italy

39:40

with me. How can you turn it down?

39:42

It's all happening in November. Get the info

39:44

at culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful. This

39:46

episode was originally produced by me along with

39:48

Anne Sani and Emma Morgenstern. It was edited

39:50

by Gianna Palmer and mixed by John Delore.

39:52

The Sporkful team now includes Emma Morgenstern,

39:54

Andres O'Hara, and Jared O'Connell. Music help

39:57

from Black Label Music. The Sporkful

39:59

is a production of Stitcher. Studios, our executive producers

40:01

are Colin Anderson and Nora Ritchie. Until

40:03

next time, I'm Dan Pashman. Now I'm

40:05

Connor Jones from Philadelphia reminding

40:08

you to eat more,

40:10

eat better, and eat more

40:12

better. This

40:22

is a big year. The

40:24

Ohio Lottery's golden anniversary. 50

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years of excitement, of growing

40:28

jackpots, and crossed fingers. 50

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years of funding for schools, of

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years of fun, and that is

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worth celebrating. So watch

40:40

for can't miss promotions, huge

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events, and new games that

40:45

will make the Ohio Lottery's

40:47

50th year its biggest one

40:49

yet. Learn more at funturns50.com.

40:53

The Angie's List you know and trust

40:55

is now Angie, and we're so much

40:57

more than just a list. We still

40:59

connect you with top local pros and

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show you ratings and reviews, but now

41:03

we also let you compare upfront prices

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service instantly. We can even handle the

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rest of your project from start to

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finish. So remember, Angie's List is now

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Angie, and we're here to get your

41:16

job done right. Get started

41:18

at angie.com. That's A-N-G-I,

41:20

or download the app today.