0:02

This is a Global Player

0:04

original podcast. Some

0:06

breaking news as well to bring you that

0:08

Everton have announced the departure of forward Lewis

0:11

Dobbin to Aston Villa for an undisclosed fee

0:13

a day after the transfer of Tim Orogonen

0:16

in the opposite direction. Well,

0:18

obviously, there's been a lot of focus on

0:20

what's going on the pitch at the Euros

0:22

in Germany, but there's been

0:24

a Premier League transfer story that we need

0:26

to focus on. And that's what we're going

0:29

to do today. For clubs with

0:31

concerns relating to their financial fair play, the

0:33

run up to June the 30th is a

0:35

crucial time. It's a crucial deadline because it's

0:37

one last opportunity to balance the books and

0:40

avoid the kinds of points deductions that both

0:42

Everton and Nottingham Forest were hit

0:44

with last season. So over the last

0:46

week or so, there have been a

0:48

few deals between clubs already thought to

0:51

be walking a pretty fine PSR line,

0:53

and they drew various headlines as academy

0:55

graduates, not far

0:57

off traded places, but for

1:00

transfer fees. It's

1:02

been described as a loophole being exploited

1:04

by the likes of Chelsea, Aston Villa

1:06

and Everton. But have any rules actually

1:08

been broken? Does the Premier League

1:11

need to investigate who decides the

1:13

fair market value of a player?

1:15

And are clubs really conspiring to

1:17

bend the rules? Welcome

1:19

to the sports agents. With

1:30

Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman. Hi

1:33

Mark. Hi Gabby.

1:36

All okay? Yeah, enjoyed the

1:38

last few days of matches, wrapping up

1:41

those groups and those little

1:43

countries in inverted commas that were supposed

1:45

to ruin the Euros

1:47

actually turn it into an amazing

1:49

party in the Great Danoumont. I

1:51

mean, Georgia have, for me, Georgia

1:53

are the story of this tournament.

1:56

We've done two of their games live for telly,

1:58

but that game against Port Portugal as well. And

2:00

that's the thing. I know it annoys both of

2:03

us, the, oh, what half of the draw are

2:05

you in? Oh, let's try and predict this, that

2:07

and the other. Oh, a few France aren't in

2:09

our half of the draw. Well, they aren't in

2:11

our half of the draw because when

2:13

I say our, I mean England, obviously aren't England's half

2:16

of the draw because Austria

2:18

were better than them and Austria top the group

2:20

and Austria have actually played better football. So I'd

2:22

be a little bit more worried about that. And

2:25

even like Slovenia came into that match, you

2:27

know, on an incredible run, including a victory

2:29

over Portugal. And, and so I think sometimes

2:31

the narrative obviously with fans, and it's not

2:33

just England fans, you know, I've been reading

2:35

about the French fans and the Dutch fans

2:37

kind of getting frustrated with their teams of

2:39

Belgian fans getting frustrated. We do live a

2:41

little bit in the past and kind of,

2:43

you know, perhaps need to have a greater

2:46

understanding of what is going on with these

2:48

players who most than playing in

2:50

the top leagues around Europe, including the

2:52

Premier League, which brings us nicely, I

2:54

think onto our lead story. Yes. And

2:56

that's the transfer deals that are going

2:58

on between a few clubs in the

3:00

Premier League ahead of this June the

3:02

30th deadline relevant to the PSR rules.

3:04

Yeah. And I would love to say

3:06

that I enjoyed chatting to our first

3:08

guest, Rob Wilson, Professor of

3:10

Applied Sports Finance. But Mark, you've

3:12

described me as having a Nana

3:14

moment. I'm still

3:17

in Berlin. You're in the sports agent's studio.

3:19

There was something of a kind of Basil

3:22

faulty moment as I was parading around my

3:24

hotel room, increasingly, but let

3:26

me tell you, I enjoyed listening

3:28

to this. So take it away.

3:30

The sports agents. Professor

3:34

of Applied Sports Science at UCFB, Rob

3:36

Wilson joins us regular on the pod,

3:38

which sums up exactly where the state

3:40

of the game is at

3:43

the moment. We're going to have to go back

3:45

here. We're just going to have to lay the

3:47

groundwork and start with PSR.

3:50

Let's just look at profit and sustainability

3:52

regulations in the round. The reason they

3:54

were put in place was to improve

3:56

the fiscal decision making at football clubs

3:58

and make them more sustainable. So we

4:00

don't want another Leeds Portsmouth, Berry and

4:02

so on and so forth. So the

4:04

regulations in their purest sense only

4:07

permit a club to lose £105 million over three years.

4:11

We'll let that sink in just for a minute, £105 million

4:13

over three. And what clubs

4:15

do is they try to book profits through the

4:17

transfer of players. So if I was trying to

4:20

buy you, Mark, and it was a £50 million

4:22

transfer, your selling club would be able to book

4:24

£50 million on the date

4:26

of transaction. And then we

4:28

do this accounting trick called amortisation. So I

4:31

assign you £50 million over

4:33

five years. I only have to book

4:35

£10 million worth of cost

4:37

each year for five years. And

4:40

PSR adds all of that up. And if

4:42

you exceed the £105 million, you end up

4:44

in a situation like Everton,

4:46

Alotting and Forest did where they

4:48

exceeded that amount of permitted loss.

4:50

So it's designed to try and

4:52

limit losses. My personal view actually

4:54

is it should be zero, but

4:56

that's probably another podcast entirely. If

4:59

you were to sell one

5:01

of your own, because that's what we call

5:03

our academy players who come through, that

5:06

is more beneficial to your

5:09

accounts than selling a first

5:11

team squad member who you bought him

5:13

four years ago. Yes, absolutely right.

5:15

And so if you take the situation at

5:17

Chelsea over the last couple of years, they've

5:20

ended up accruing around about £200 million

5:22

worth of transfer fees owing.

5:24

So that counts against their

5:27

PSR calculation. And

5:29

if they've got a Connor Gallagher, for

5:31

instance, he represents 100% pure PSR profit

5:36

to them. So we were all expecting as

5:38

analysts before they did the hotel and the women's

5:40

training ground deal that they would have to sell somebody like

5:42

him. And of course, it's more efficient to do that, isn't

5:45

it? So you book £50, £60

5:47

million worth of PSR profit on Gallagher

5:49

rather than you sell four

5:52

or five other players to book the same

5:54

amount of profit. So it's a very efficient

5:56

way selling your academy

5:58

prospects, your homegrown talent. for

6:00

PSR purposes? They're

6:02

doing nothing wrong here, are they?

6:05

I mean, that's the important part to

6:07

say. Signing a young

6:09

academy prospect from another

6:12

club is perfectly fine. Manchester

6:14

United, I mean, a very, very famous example, Manchester

6:16

United signing Wayne Rooney at the age of 17,

6:19

18, who'd come through Everton's academy. And

6:21

there are so many other

6:24

examples that you can come up with.

6:27

But it does appear to be a loophole, doesn't

6:30

it? When you have clubs who

6:32

we are told are close to the

6:34

line on PSR involved

6:37

in this, and also,

6:39

I mean, if they were doing it on

6:41

July the 20th, as opposed to June the

6:44

20th, not sure it would have drawn

6:46

the attention that it has done. No, it

6:48

wouldn't. There'd be no eyebrows being raised if it

6:50

was in the next or the start of the

6:52

next PSR period. It's

6:54

not outlawed as part of

6:56

the regulation. The transfer of players, the

6:58

transfer of academy talent, the

7:00

buying and selling of young players is

7:03

nothing new, and it is entirely acceptable

7:05

within the realm of the regulation. The

7:07

issue we've got with the cases that

7:09

we've heard just recently are the size

7:11

of the transfer fees that are being

7:13

paid, presumably, for these players.

7:15

There's a lot of trading going on,

7:17

remember? The clubs that are involved in

7:20

an almost three-stroke, four-way kind of pathway

7:22

of players, and critically

7:24

for me, the valuation that's being put

7:26

on those players that have essentially had

7:29

very, very few first-team minutes. That

7:31

opens up to question and debate the rationale

7:33

behind the setting of that transfer fee, because

7:36

your example of Wayne Rooney, I think he

7:38

was 30 million, wasn't he, when he transferred

7:40

to Manchester United? You would say he was

7:42

probably worth that in the current market, given

7:44

his playing performances that Wonder goalie scored, I think

7:47

it was against Arsenal, wasn't it, back in the

7:49

day. Very different context to

7:51

the players that we've seen moving

7:53

between those three or four clubs,

7:55

and I think that's why, when

7:57

we talk about regulation, yes. It's

14:00

not level playing field, is it? And

14:02

we're talking lawyers again. We're talking, you know, kind

14:04

of making the best of a situation and make

14:07

it work for you. Lawyers,

14:09

accountants, businesses, chief

14:11

execs, loopholes, very

14:14

little of it is about what is

14:16

going on on the field. And

14:19

when we're talking about the footballers involved, it's

14:21

all to do with valuations and

14:24

contracts. But we are going to look

14:26

at it from a footballer's point of

14:28

view next. The

14:30

PFA CEO, Mahita Malango, will join

14:33

us. And in case you're wondering,

14:35

Gabby's Wi-Fi worked for this interview.

14:38

So they'll both join us next.

14:40

The sports agents. The

14:45

sports agents. With Gabby Logan and

14:48

Mark Chapman. Mahita

14:52

Malango, managing director of the

14:54

Professional Footballers Association, the PFA.

14:57

It's good to speak to you. Thank you very much for coming on

14:59

the sports agents. Mark was just channelling

15:01

there to Rob about how difficult

15:03

it is to make a valuation of

15:05

a player generally, never mind what's going

15:07

on at the moment. Is that something

15:09

that you have been concerned about, the

15:11

PFA, for a while? I think

15:14

what we've been concerned for a while about is

15:17

the lack of involvement of players in certain

15:19

decisions which ultimately have consequences on them. And

15:21

this is a very good example as to

15:23

how on paper for someone

15:25

who may not be acquainted with football, he

15:27

or she may think that this is only

15:29

a financial rule. But in reality,

15:31

that financial rule has a direct implication on the

15:33

players because then they get

15:36

involved into transactions sometimes which are sensible, sometimes

15:38

they're not. But most importantly, because those may

15:40

have an impact on their career. So

15:43

for us, it's yet again another reminder. It's not

15:45

just a nice to have. It's

15:48

important to understand what the consequences are on

15:50

players and most importantly, what could be the

15:52

side effects or unintended consequences of a regulation

15:54

on a player. And I think that's what

15:57

we're seeing now over the last few days.

16:00

Generally though, in terms

16:02

of valuations, Mark

16:04

and I were just discussing offer. You

16:06

hear the price of a player and

16:08

you're crying, that's huge. How did they

16:11

get to that valuation? It doesn't matter

16:13

what club, what age, where they're from.

16:16

There seems to be, obviously, self-interest on

16:18

both sides. A club really wants a

16:20

player. They need to fill that

16:22

position. They're prepared to pay perhaps a bit

16:24

more than the market value would be. Then

16:26

what is the market value? Does

16:29

it depend on what time of the season it is? Does it

16:31

depend on the need of a club? That's

16:34

not something that you can ever really

16:36

have any kind of fair play for,

16:38

can you? Everybody's needs

16:40

and wants are different at different times. It's

16:43

a fascinating question and fascinating topic. Maybe the

16:46

fact that I was myself the CEO of

16:48

a club makes me look

16:50

at this in a slightly different way because I had

16:53

a very long conversation with the owners that I

16:55

had myself in Mallorca. Those

16:59

are American owners, NBA owners. We

17:02

had long conversations, how much should we invest in

17:04

the player? What is this player

17:07

really worth? Can we predict what we should spend

17:09

on the marketplace? It's very difficult because like

17:12

in any other open market, those are the

17:14

rules of the market. It's not possibly a

17:16

question of how good or bad that player

17:18

is. It's also how

17:20

badly we need him. It's also a question

17:22

of what else is available. For

17:24

example, back in the days, we could see

17:26

a shortage, for example, of left-cent rost because

17:29

you just don't have them. There are very

17:31

few of them in the market. All

17:33

of a sudden, you find yourself paying something that

17:35

maybe would not be the normal price, but

17:38

it's a question of demand and offer as well

17:40

and timing as to when you go to market

17:42

to find what you need. As

17:45

you say, I think it's very difficult. Some people

17:47

talk about algorithm, but again, this is a misunderstanding

17:49

of the way that football works and

17:52

it's a misunderstanding as to

17:54

how any free market works, really. Is

17:56

it a free market for the players,

17:58

though? transfer market

18:02

work for a player? It's a question

18:04

that will come to the front very

18:06

shortly because as you know,

18:08

there's an important case that has gone under

18:10

the radar called the D'Ara case, which

18:12

is precisely discussing

18:15

whether the transfer

18:17

system is or not in line with

18:19

ordinary laws and the freedom of worker

18:21

to move around. And it's a

18:23

case where there's been an opinion issued by the attorney general

18:25

a couple of months ago, which has gone under the radar.

18:28

But that case would be adjudicated probably

18:31

by mid-September of next year, of this year,

18:33

sorry, by the European Court of Justice. And

18:36

that very same question would be asked. If

18:38

the system is declared unlawful, what's next? That's

18:41

something that we as PFA are working on. We

18:43

try to be ready for that scenario because

18:46

I think what we've learned over the

18:48

last few months is that for as

18:50

much as football is special, it is

18:52

not above the law. That's European courts.

18:54

So it wouldn't pertain to the UK,

18:56

would it? Yeah, but ultimately it would

18:58

have effect on European clubs at large,

19:00

irrespective of whether you are part of

19:02

the EU, strictly speaking or not. And

19:04

as you know, typically, and this happened

19:06

with Bosman, Bosman was a European case,

19:09

yet to the extent that the European market is

19:11

the biggest, then it will have effect throughout the

19:14

world, including England. We were in the EU, obviously,

19:16

weren't we? Did Bosman rule? Yeah, yes, but Bosman

19:18

applies also in Latin America and it happens in

19:20

other markets. So what I'm trying to say is

19:23

this is the reason why people go to the

19:25

European Court of Justice because it's the most important

19:27

market. So in the end, FIFA cannot have a

19:29

situation where the biggest market is regulated by certain

19:31

rules and the rest by different rules. So ultimately,

19:33

they will fall in line. I mean, if this

19:36

case went the way of D'Ara,

19:38

if this case went the way of

19:40

the player and it was deemed that

19:42

the transfer market wasn't fit for purpose

19:44

for legal reasons, I mean,

19:46

crikey, that could blow the whole, that

19:48

could blow the sport wide open. You're

19:50

working on plans at the moment, are

19:52

you, for if that happens

19:54

and how that would affect your members?

19:57

We are part of that case because remember

19:59

that. In addition to my role at the

20:01

PFA, I'm also on the board of FIFPro,

20:04

both the European level and the

20:06

global level. And this was a case initiated by D'Arra

20:08

himself, but then supported by the French

20:11

Union and by FIFPro. So, we

20:13

are part of those discussions and obviously

20:15

we want to try to be ahead of the

20:17

curve and be ready for that. What would an

20:19

alternative system look like? Has that been discussed

20:22

at all within this case? We are

20:24

working on it. I don't think

20:26

that I've got an answer right now because we believe

20:28

that ultimately it shouldn't be a question of opinions. It should

20:30

be a question of facts and figures. And

20:32

I think you need to really be careful about what

20:35

you wish for and how things will work

20:37

because as I was saying just before, I think

20:40

you need to think about unintended consequences to

20:43

shy away from populist visions or

20:45

from short-sighted kind of conclusions. So,

20:47

we are working on understanding what would be the

20:50

best possible alternative. What the Attorney

20:52

General says is, look, this behavior

20:54

can be anti-competitive or against

20:56

the law. Fine. What

20:59

is the best way to do that? Which

21:01

is to have employees and employers sit down

21:03

and have a collective bargaining agreement like in

21:05

any other works of life. One

21:07

of the outcomes could be to keep

21:09

the transfer system but no longer as

21:11

UF and FIFA sit, but rather how

21:13

the employees and the employers sit as

21:15

part of the collective bargaining agreement. Mahita,

21:17

that's a really interesting point. Is there

21:19

no, at the moment, there's

21:22

no collective bargaining agreement in place within

21:25

football, is there? No. People

21:29

roll their eyes. I'm going back to

21:31

American sports. In the NFL, that's a

21:33

massive thing and a collective bargaining agreement

21:35

will be negotiated every five

21:37

years, six years between owners and the

21:39

league and the players. Therefore,

21:41

everything is there then. You know exactly

21:44

where you stand, don't you, for the

21:46

next period of time. For example, in

21:49

the NFL at the moment, there may be rumors that

21:51

they'll go to playing a regular season that has 18

21:53

games. At the moment, they're at 17 games.

21:56

They couldn't do that without a

21:58

new collective bargaining agreement. he

26:00

decided to make the switch and play for

26:02

Germany, but also was with Chelsea and decided

26:04

to start his professional career with Bayern Munich.

26:06

And I heard an interview with him talking

26:08

about his reasons for that, and it was

26:10

to do with what Bayern Munich had kind

26:12

of set out for him. And in the

26:14

interview he said, and they've done that,

26:16

they've done everything they said they were going to do

26:19

with regards to my development. And

26:21

we also know other English players who've

26:23

chosen to start, I mean, Jude Bellingham

26:25

obviously starting their professional careers properly, if

26:27

you like. He's moved from Birmingham obviously

26:29

at a very young age. Are they

26:31

doing something different in terms of how

26:34

they're caring for their younger players that's making

26:36

it so attractive to top talent? It

26:39

doesn't depend on the country, it depends on

26:41

the action club. And I remember

26:43

going back to my days when I was in Mallorca,

26:45

we took a player on loan from Liverpool and they

26:47

were doing a brilliant job. At the time, Julian Ward

26:49

was in charge of the loan players and what they

26:52

were doing in terms of picking the right fit for

26:54

that specific player and then following up. I

26:56

even remember Chelsea, we took a player

26:59

on loan from them and Carlo

27:01

Cudicini was in charge of the loan

27:03

players and he's doing an unbelievable job,

27:05

really on top, very professional, really kind

27:07

of caring, coming towards the lads. So

27:09

I don't think that other people

27:11

in other countries do forced to be a better

27:14

job, but he's the culture of the club and

27:16

the understanding that a player is not just a

27:18

commodity and just an asset, it's not just a

27:20

question of sending Chapman on loan to Reksum. Is

27:23

Reksum really the right fit for Chapman now? I

27:26

think what I've seen over the years is the best clubs are

27:28

the ones who really have career plans for their players. If

27:30

Ryan Reynolds is listening, I'm more than

27:33

happy to consider a move

27:35

to Reksum, if that's a

27:37

possibility. Do you think this is

27:39

just the tip of the iceberg with some of these

27:42

young players that we've seen on the move in the

27:44

last week or the bids coming in? I

27:46

know June the 30th is the deadline for this

27:48

year's PSR, but do you think

27:50

we are going to see this more and

27:53

more? I am concerned that more

27:55

and more, instead of talking about football, we talk

27:57

about finances, we talk about economics, we talk about

27:59

everything. but the show on

28:01

the pitch. And all those people

28:04

who seem to have brilliant idea about how things

28:06

should be sold should remember that when they paid

28:08

what they paid for those clubs it was because

28:10

something was working. The concern

28:12

for us is to see an excess of

28:15

people who just do not understand the actual

28:18

product, the actual show and what it takes

28:20

to make it a successful thing. And

28:22

and fourthly you run the risk of having

28:24

people come here to milk the cow as

28:27

they've been doing and then depart and leave

28:29

the industry in the worst state and what

28:31

it was when they entered. And then the

28:33

final thing on that and this is a

28:35

sort of broader subject because there are so

28:37

many things that are affecting players at the

28:39

moment and we've talked before about number of

28:42

games and this this show isn't this specific

28:44

pod isn't about that issue but I am

28:46

aware I think we're becoming more and more

28:48

aware of there are so many different things

28:50

that are really affecting players at the moment

28:52

that don't seem to necessarily be right and

28:54

and we could throw this

28:57

conversation into that. Whenever strike action

28:59

gets mentioned is that a genuine

29:01

viable proposition for football

29:04

to settle their disputes

29:07

and grievances? Would

29:09

it work? Would you be able

29:11

to do it? When you have

29:13

an England player that

29:15

enters the pitch on Tuesday and he has played the

29:17

126th game

29:20

over the last two years I mean you know it comes to

29:22

a stage where you know and

29:24

again money does not solve that situation is not

29:26

the question of having money is you know they

29:29

feel very privileged it's an honor to play for

29:31

your country in order to play football and to

29:34

make your hobby passion into a job but

29:36

you cannot play 126 games

29:40

in two years and be expected to

29:42

perform it's it's just

29:44

not humanly possible so and

29:46

what really annoys me is that then we were quick to

29:48

judge those guys and I think that you know you need

29:50

to put yourself into their shoes you need to understand what

29:52

they're going through and you need to understand that and for

29:55

this is not a question of turning up at the game

29:58

it's a question of delivering a 90-minute

30:00

performance at the highest standards

30:02

with a shirt that weights a

30:04

lot and it's extremely tough and I'm full of

30:06

admiration for them but it comes to a stage

30:08

where I understand when they say to me enough

30:11

is enough and maybe we need to strike because

30:13

we're left with no other option and

30:16

the first step for us was to take a legal action because

30:19

there was no other choice and

30:21

you'd be amazed by the number of messages we received

30:23

not just by players executives from

30:26

clubs you know managers

30:28

because you know it takes a toll on

30:30

everyone on everyone. The

30:32

Sports Agents. The

30:37

Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and

30:39

Mark Chapman. Thanks

30:42

so much to Mahetta and to Rob and

30:45

to you Mark for doing all of that interview on

30:47

your own. Do

30:49

you know there's so many interesting points

30:51

that come out of that that

30:53

I think we will revisit over the course

30:55

of the summer. Not least the D'Ara case.

30:57

Not least that D'Ara case and the future

30:59

of the transfer market. We all love the

31:02

speculation, we love the rumors, I go to

31:04

the gossip stuff first every morning when

31:06

I wake up you know some I

31:08

believe, some I don't believe but

31:11

it's a very strange time for

31:14

transfers in football and it'll

31:16

probably get stranger before if

31:19

ever it gets better. Yeah do send

31:21

us your thoughts and your questions as well to the

31:23

sports agents at global.com or you can contact us via

31:25

our socials, leave us a review, remember to hit follow

31:27

or subscribe so you never miss a show. Catch

31:30

up with all of our episodes on

31:33

Global Player or wherever you get your

31:35

podcasts we'll be back next week, Wi-Fi

31:37

permitting, have a good weekend. The Sports

31:39

Agents. With Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

31:43

Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week.