0:02

This is a Global Player original

0:05

podcast. In the first year of

0:07

the Premier League, the turnover of

0:09

the Premier League was 45 million.

0:12

The turnover of the Football League was

0:14

34 million. The gap was 11 million. The gap

0:17

has gone

0:19

from 11 million to 3 billion. This

0:21

weekend Southampton face Leeds in the richest

0:23

game in football, the Championship playoff final,

0:25

for a chance to bounce straight back

0:27

up to England's top tier. Leicester, who

0:30

were relegated along with those two last

0:32

season, were crowned champions earlier this month,

0:34

so they will also play in the

0:36

Premier League next season. Meanwhile, for only

0:38

the second time since the creation of

0:40

the Premier League, all three of this

0:42

season's newly promoted teams went straight back

0:45

down. Now that clip you heard

0:47

at the start was from the EFL

0:49

chairman Rick Parry, once upon a time

0:51

the original Premier League CEO. And he

0:53

sat down with us earlier this week

0:55

to answer a burning question which flies

0:58

in the face of everything we celebrate

1:00

about the English football pyramid. What's the

1:02

point in Premier League promotion? And on

1:04

top of all of that, we'll talk

1:06

about what is going on in the

1:09

managerial world and in particular Vincent Company

1:11

swapping Burnley for Bayern Munich. Welcome

1:13

to the Sports Agents. Hi

1:26

Mark. Hi Gabby. So,

1:31

since we were last together, an election

1:33

has been called. Yes. And

1:35

in footballing terms. Phew, thank goodness for that.

1:38

I was thinking. I

1:41

was wondering what you were going to ask me. In

1:44

footballing terms, that means that the football

1:46

regulator, which is part of Tracy Crouch's

1:49

proposed kind of changes and bill, will not

1:51

happen in this term because there isn't time

1:53

to get that bill through. So it's important

1:55

to mention that, not because we want to

1:57

turn into our sister, the news But

2:00

because obviously we talked to Rick Perry in the interview

2:02

that's going to come up a little bit later About

2:05

the impact of that on the football

2:07

pyramid and the EFL. He's really interesting

2:09

actually on his own Capability

2:12

actually and other execs in football and

2:14

not being able to regulate themselves So

2:16

we'll hear from him in a

2:19

bit should also say that you will see

2:21

there with this clash of the euros

2:23

and the build-up To a general election

2:25

you will see more politicians than you want

2:27

to trying to talk about football The

2:30

next six weeks they might even try

2:32

and sneak on our podcast But we

2:34

will try our very best to not

2:36

let that maybe every time they appear

2:38

on news agents trying to do it

2:40

We should just pop up get no

2:42

no no no you've got that wrong.

2:44

They don't play there No, they've not

2:46

qualified for that right leave the sport.

2:48

You definitely don't support them So

2:52

Rick Perry to come but first of all, let's

2:54

talk about everything that is going on in

2:57

the managerial World at

2:59

the moment plenty of vacancies plenty

3:01

of clubs trying to attract managers

3:03

Mike McGraw is the football reporter

3:05

at the Daily Telegraph and Joins

3:07

us now and the first thing that strikes me

3:09

in with several of these candidates is that? Lots

3:12

of football clubs are trying to tap

3:14

into pep Guardiola's coaching tree. I'll

3:17

set I think that's kind of

3:19

set a trend really in terms

3:21

of what managers what clubs are

3:24

looking for Certainly with mareska at

3:26

Leicester our tester There

3:28

is a track record now of starting

3:30

at the Etihad under pep Guardiola and

3:32

taking some of his magic using that

3:34

and taking it to another club and

3:36

people Wanting to become a number one

3:39

in their own right and there's some

3:41

really really talented managers The trend is

3:43

also that young manager as well seeing

3:45

them in their 30s and the helping

3:47

really Sort after by clubs

3:49

as the next coach to look

3:51

out for I know some of

3:53

Alex Ferguson's assistance McLaren and Brian

3:55

kid went on to try their

3:57

managerial hand elsewhere and some of

3:59

his The players, but I don't

4:01

remember it being as overt as

4:03

this. Fails Raiding. Raising the average?

4:06

Yeah. The kitty, whatever. wherever you

4:08

can, whether it's taking direct as

4:10

a football, just in assets. Yeah,

4:12

it's is interesting isn't it that that seems to

4:14

be but will assist the blueprint. Now Is this

4:16

a way that you have to play football he

4:18

wants be successful for the next decade? Is that

4:21

What clubs the thinking and other? See Vincent. Companies

4:23

moved to Burnley. Was

4:25

was always interested me to see that he was

4:27

not going to have necessarily. To the tools

4:29

at his disposal, to to. Put

4:32

a. Team Out The played in the

4:34

way that in our he's had become

4:36

accustomed Suits. And at times they played. Some

4:38

great football than they put it, but

4:40

it wasn't quite enough. Yeah, obviously not

4:42

father in the position they're in. And

4:45

say that it's kind of interesting. I think seeing how

4:47

this develops square pegs, round holes, let's let's not be

4:49

bought the most part. Got a I had the best

4:51

players in the world. At his disposal as me

4:53

in his shoes Squad So. It

4:55

is an interesting. Way of going

4:58

around recruitment will it is unable to

5:00

manages And the coaches for yes? opposite

5:02

yes absolutely All The transfer jesus and

5:05

still manages as as opposed to players

5:07

are the moments. Too

5:10

long days. Tracy player transfers from

5:12

top to club but it's certainly

5:14

different. This year is a few

5:17

different reasons of I think there's

5:19

new owners a club see a

5:21

success. Chelsea run you over still

5:23

finding their seats to put it

5:26

politely and overseas. Manchester United job

5:28

has been speculated upon and they

5:30

put you in your best. Price

5:35

is really difference at the

5:37

moment. a different landscape. Toward

5:39

has been previously chairman have been absolutely

5:41

desperate not pay any compensation for a

5:44

manager. I think the theory behind that

5:46

being is that it costs a lot

5:48

to suck as well as a plane

5:50

ago by I'm you've got to sought

5:53

some is get them in as well

5:55

as to lots of stamps. Easy. as

5:59

a spy just that's changed a bit

6:01

now and you're seeing people who are

6:03

really appealing to clubs like Kieran McKenna

6:05

who've done such a good job, who

6:07

all cost a bit of compensation. There's

6:09

Amarin at Sporting Lisbon who's got to

6:11

buy out and Vincent Company as well

6:13

won't be a free transfer. Can we

6:15

just talk on Vincent Company specifically to

6:17

start off with because it's so

6:20

fascinating that you can be

6:22

relegated and then go

6:24

to one of the biggest clubs in

6:26

Europe. That's unprecedented,

6:29

right? You're normally looking at appointing

6:31

somebody either in that club, there's

6:33

been succession in the past or

6:35

you've got people who've gone away and come back to a

6:37

point from an English club

6:40

that is not one of the glorious six

6:42

if you like and to be a relegated

6:45

manager it's an extraordinary turn

6:47

of events. I mean they've thrown their darts

6:49

at a whole variety of... He's

6:52

down there in about 7th or 8th. Yeah he

6:54

probably is. I mean but you know and

6:56

that may be brutal to say it but

6:58

it does feel like they've reached their 7th

7:01

choice, doesn't it? It's been a

7:04

really strange six months for Bayern

7:06

because obviously the announcement of Tuccio

7:08

leaving was in February, an almost

7:10

due turn when they spoke to

7:13

him about staying but in between

7:15

all this there's been a variety

7:17

of names that they've spoken to

7:19

in some cases like Ralph Ranjic,

7:22

Lopategi who's gone to West Ham,

7:24

Xabi Alonso obviously who's staying at

7:26

Bayern Lebesgue, Solskjaer was mentioned early

7:28

on as a stock gap. You've

7:30

got Zinedine Zidane floating in the

7:33

background who's won three Champions League

7:35

in a row. It does feel

7:37

that maybe they've had to go

7:39

down the list and look at

7:42

company and really look at

7:44

what he did in the championship and a year

7:46

ago they won spectacularly. He worked

7:48

quite well with Nathan Teller who went

7:50

on to Lebecuse and then became an

7:53

invincible and he worked well with Ian

7:55

Mattson who's going to be playing in

7:57

the Champions League final so there's definitely

8:00

potential there but I think it is

8:02

potential because it was a very very tricky

8:04

season for him in terms of the style

8:06

that he wanted to play which I

8:08

think showed that he was quite stubborn really

8:10

and five wins all season is a pretty

8:13

damning statistic. Well you're expected to reach the

8:15

latter stages of the Champions League in his new job.

8:17

And win the Bundesliga. And win the Bundesliga. But

8:19

he's a really impressive individual. He's a really, you

8:21

know, he's one of those guys. You think he'd

8:23

do well in a job interview, is that? Yeah,

8:26

absolutely. But you do feel like some people you

8:28

can just tell are leaders. There's an aura. And

8:30

there's a leader and, you know, he did a

8:32

big thing on homelessness in Manchester and helping the

8:35

mayor's charities. So I'm not saying that

8:37

lends itself to being a good football coach but that's

8:39

the kind of man he is. One

8:41

of the biggest problems in Bayern is

8:43

the number of ex-players that are

8:45

around that club who run that

8:47

club and have an opinion on that

8:50

club. So he's coming from Burnley

8:52

where he's left to get

8:54

on with it whereas now the scrutiny

8:56

on him, forget the media, everything like

8:59

that. But all the ex-Bian players who

9:01

have an input into the club are

9:03

going to be commenting on everything he

9:05

does. He's got to have all of

9:07

that aura and leadership to deal with

9:09

that. I don't think a problem

9:12

for him will be respect in the

9:14

dressing room because of what he's won

9:16

and how he's carried himself as a

9:18

player and initially as a manager. But

9:20

we know what players are like and

9:23

the proof will be in the

9:25

pudding in terms of the first

9:27

sessions he does, whether they

9:29

respond to his training and then

9:32

obviously the results as well. Like

9:34

you say, he's a bit Manchester United-esque

9:36

in terms of former players who

9:38

will have their opinions. Thomas Tuchel

9:41

fell foul of that in terms

9:43

of developing young players and he

9:46

was criticised for it. Whether

9:48

a company, whether he can take that really

9:50

stick to his principles, I think there will

9:52

be a huge test for him in the

9:54

next year. And then of course West Ham

9:57

with Lopategi have got a different matter in

9:59

terms of... of retaining the players there, some

10:01

of the big stars there, that they were

10:03

wanted at. Will, do you think his reputation

10:06

and what he's done in the game persuade

10:08

some of those names to stay? He

10:10

was linked with Bayern

10:12

himself. I think so. I think

10:14

he's managed at the very, very

10:16

highest level and he was linked

10:19

with Bayern himself. You know, overall

10:22

when you look at David Moyes,

10:24

it has been a successful period

10:26

for West Ham and

10:29

some would say that he was quite

10:31

harshly treated. He was always a divisive

10:33

figure among fans. I was having

10:35

this conversation with a West Ham fan last night

10:37

because I really liked David Moyes as a man.

10:39

When you chat to him, he's a lovely guy, you

10:41

know, and he's very genial and you just feel

10:44

for him, winning a trophy and

10:46

finishing ninth in the league. What do West Ham

10:48

want? And this West Ham fan was like, we

10:50

don't want to be bored to death watching that.

10:54

And so are they going to accept a

10:56

more exciting style of football but finishing in

10:58

the bottom third of the table? Is that going to

11:00

be enough? Because I can't see them being happy below

11:02

tenths. There were a couple of things with

11:05

it and the West Ham fans that I

11:07

know and there was a West Ham podcast

11:09

where they said one of David Moyes' problems

11:11

was that he raised expectations himself. So

11:14

he caused, not that that's his point, but he

11:16

sort of caused the problem. Yeah, he was the

11:18

master of his own downfall. And

11:20

the thing with Lopategi around the time that he

11:22

was rumoured to be taking over was

11:26

there was quite a big petition against him from

11:28

West Ham fans. I think he may have had

11:30

like 18,000 West Ham fans that had signed a

11:32

petition that they didn't want Lopategi. But

11:35

Lopategi's back catalogue is

11:38

good, but his

11:40

image doesn't fit the

11:43

30-something track-suited, either

11:45

former player or dynamic young

11:47

coach. And that's the real issue, I

11:49

think, for owners, execs,

11:52

the older manager, i.e. over 45, maybe, is

11:56

image now. I know all these young ones

11:58

that we're talking about are impressive. in their own

12:00

ways. But the image that

12:02

clubs like West Ham have to think about

12:04

now is really difficult. And

12:06

he also, he left Wolves because of

12:09

a lack of transparency over transfers, which

12:11

implies that he's come to some kind

12:13

of agreement about what he's got to

12:15

spend or that he's been assured that he's

12:17

going to have some money to go out.

12:19

Or even input into who they sign. I

12:21

think it always goes back to maybe the

12:24

manager should always be the biggest personality of

12:26

a club, which I think is a theory

12:28

that some go by and like

12:31

you say, the image of people. But

12:33

the problem with that, and if you have an Antonio

12:35

Conte or a deserby, is that they're quite

12:37

combustible as well. And that

12:40

doesn't always last. Vincent

12:42

company certainly, I know he's 38. He's definitely

12:44

got a more calm kind of serene demeanor.

12:46

I'm sure he can lose it as well

12:48

with the best of them. Interesting, obviously Jurgen Klopp has

12:50

said that he will not manage in the Premier

12:53

League again, but he'll stop popping

12:55

up won't he as a name before long?

12:57

I think after a bit of skiing, I

12:59

can see him popping up when

13:01

jobs do crop up. Sounds like a country

13:03

would suit him. From an energy point of

13:05

view, I wonder if that would be better

13:07

use of his energy. But you're saying actually, he

13:10

enjoys being all in. He's just got a bit

13:12

exhausted. Yeah, and he described it as a

13:14

drug that keeps dragging back in this management.

13:16

And maybe that will be the case after

13:18

he's had a little bit of a break.

13:20

Be careful though, because on Mark's kind of criteria,

13:22

he's getting a bit old. Well

13:26

not necessarily on my criteria, just

13:28

how the game is going. The

13:31

final one, because we haven't really

13:33

touched on Chelsea. By

13:35

the time this goes out, God knows what they

13:37

might have done. But the perception of the

13:40

manager being the forefront of the club

13:42

and the biggest name at the

13:44

club, that's not what they're looking for,

13:46

is it? It would appear when you look at the

13:49

names that are being linked there with all due respect

13:51

to them, they're looking for

13:53

somebody to coach the players that they

13:55

are given. Possibly what we're

13:57

hearing is maybe a bit younger, which

13:59

is... when McKenna's coming to

14:01

the frame. We've got a story going

14:04

out today about a short list which

14:06

includes Thomas Frank as well, not

14:09

as young as the others and also Mareska

14:11

as well as McKenna and one other unnamed

14:13

one which we're trying to find out as

14:15

well. But certainly, I mean that

14:17

is a difficult one

14:20

to know, quite know where Chelsea are going.

14:23

I mean, by the end of the season it

14:25

looked like a good fit but

14:27

obviously not in that. And

14:30

I'm sure he's one of the names

14:33

that there's quite a long

14:35

list of managers

14:38

who are available. It seems

14:40

that's the manager's market. Well

14:43

I think this one is not

14:45

over. There are a few more

14:47

chapters to come in this summer

14:49

managerial story but it's fascinating as

14:52

always. Mike, thank you. Thanks

14:54

for having me on. So the Championship playoff

14:56

final awaits. It is of course often

14:58

called the richest game in football but

15:01

is promotion to the Premier League starting

15:03

to feel pointless. Our exclusive interview with

15:05

EFL chairman Rick Perry after the

15:07

break. The sports agents. The

15:11

sports agents. With Gabby Logan and

15:13

Mark Chapman. As

15:17

we sit here at the moment then Rick, thanks for joining

15:19

us. As a former Chief Executive

15:22

Premier League and Chairman of

15:24

the EFL. Are you optimistic

15:27

about the future of the pyramid and the domestic

15:29

game or are you fearful?

15:32

Both. I am the eternal optimist. That's why

15:34

I took the role. I wasn't convinced

15:36

immediately about the EFL role. I

15:39

wasn't convinced in all honesty I'd be

15:41

welcome. Because of your Premier League

15:43

background. I've broken it apart in the first place.

15:47

But having sort of slept on it, thought you

15:49

know what, I really want to do this because

15:51

the authenticity and the pyramid really

15:53

really matters. But

15:55

if we're going to preserve it we've got to change a few things. Which

15:57

has really been the purpose.

16:00

over the last four to five years. We've

16:02

had varying attempts. Final Aid review

16:04

is interesting because it was kicked off by

16:07

Barry. But then the real

16:09

catalyst was the Super League.

16:11

So again, you've got that kind of contrast

16:14

of something going wrong at the very bottom and then

16:16

something going wrong at the very top. And we've then

16:18

embraced the Final Aid review and said, look, this has

16:20

to be a catalyst for change. It's interesting you mentioned

16:22

at the very top and at the very bottom there,

16:25

because there are so many different issues that we are

16:27

going to explore with you. But I always

16:29

do find it interesting that we lump the

16:31

72 of the EFL in together

16:33

when we're talking about things. Because

16:36

one of the biggest challenges for

16:38

you must be what constitutes what

16:40

say West Brom want may

16:42

be very different to what Colchester want

16:44

who survived in League 2 by the

16:47

skin of their teeth. They can't all

16:49

want the same thing. You

16:52

know, having been there in

16:54

91, 92, that's exactly where we

16:56

broke things apart. I remember the

16:59

late 80s Arsenal, for

17:01

example, proposing extending the

17:03

half-time interval to 15 minutes and

17:06

it being voted down by what was

17:08

then Division 3 and 4 because they said,

17:10

well, what are we going to do for

17:12

15 minutes? There's only so much bother or

17:14

weakness out. And you

17:16

just couldn't get agreement. But

17:18

interestingly, what I would say over the last few years,

17:20

and it came through really very

17:22

strongly in the pandemic, was

17:25

that sense of unity across 72.

17:28

Of course, they've got different interests. And

17:30

the paradox with the EFL is always

17:32

that your most successful clubs

17:34

don't want to be there. But the unity

17:37

has been the most rewarding thing. And it's

17:39

why you keep going, to be honest, because

17:41

we pretty much had 72 clubs

17:43

pulling together. Having said that,

17:46

we actually really genuinely don't view this

17:48

as being us against the Premier League.

17:50

And we look downwards. So it is

17:52

about a pyramid of 100 plus

17:54

clubs. Luton were around the table

17:57

when we formed the Premier League and signed

17:59

the... final members agreement, didn't

18:01

get to play in it straight away. They've

18:04

plummeted downwards and had a lengthy spell in

18:06

the conference. They've climbed all the way up

18:08

to the Premier League and surely that's what

18:11

we need to preserve. As Mark alluded to

18:13

there, there's a lot to get into with

18:15

you and we could always kind of go

18:17

right back to the start, couldn't we? And

18:19

I'd be fascinated to learn from you when

18:22

you did that first Premier League deal because you're

18:24

kind of, I can't decide whether you're a poacher turned

18:26

gamekeeper or a gamekeeper turned poacher in

18:29

terms of where you come from, where

18:31

you are now. Well, you did that first deal for the

18:33

Premier League, which was revolutionary and was it about

18:35

305 million?

18:37

Which sounds like small change now, doesn't

18:39

it? But it was an extraordinary deal

18:41

and it would revolutionise the way we

18:43

watched football, the way we consumed it

18:45

as a fan going to matches in

18:48

the top flight. What at

18:50

that point did you think the effect

18:52

was going to be lower down? We

18:55

needed change because we had all sorts

18:57

of challenges. We had the Taylor Report,

18:59

we had clubs having to invest in

19:01

all-seater stadia. Game was at a fairly

19:04

low ebb. We had

19:06

in the wake of Italian

19:08

90 talent moving abroad,

19:11

very difficult to get change within the

19:13

set up of the football league.

19:16

Something different was needed. What

19:18

we didn't want to do in any way,

19:20

show perform was to destroy the rest of

19:22

the pyramid. That was never part of the

19:24

plan. I'll tell

19:26

you what's really interesting. The final deal that we

19:28

signed with Sky and the BBC was actually 214

19:32

million over the five years. 40 odd

19:35

million a year to start with, 400%

19:37

up on the previous EFL deal. It

19:39

was actually big money. But

19:41

in the first year of the Premier League,

19:44

the turnover of the Premier League, not all

19:46

the clubs, the turnover of the Premier League,

19:48

the limited company, was 45

19:50

million. The turnover of the football

19:52

league was 34 million. The

19:55

gap was 11 million. And

19:58

of course, who would remember it? Big

20:00

chunk of that was the pools money, for example, around

20:02

10 million a year. The gap has

20:04

gone from 11 million to 3 billion. But

20:07

it was never the intention to leave

20:10

the football league behind. Nobody

20:13

envisaged it would be as big as it was. Anybody

20:15

who says that they

20:17

thought we'd be generating the numbers we are

20:20

now at the time would be lying, frankly,

20:22

because nobody had a clue. Sky

20:24

was on the verge of going bust. They were losing 250 million a

20:26

year. It

20:28

was brave. They were old on both parts. But

20:31

as I said, never wanting to destroy the

20:33

game, we thought the football league would succeed on

20:35

its own. They thought they would succeed on their

20:37

own because having talked about the

20:40

tensions of making decisions, same applied to them. You

20:42

couldn't make a decision on anything. So we

20:44

thought they would thrive. And

20:46

in the negotiations with the football league clubs,

20:48

the thing that was paramount from their point

20:50

of view was the three up, three down.

20:52

It was the ability to get into the

20:55

Premier League because the FA blueprint, when it

20:57

first came out, clearly envisaged

20:59

a reduction to 18 clubs. But

21:01

also it was going to be two up, two down. And

21:03

it wasn't money that was contentious. It was

21:05

two up, two down. Can we talk about

21:07

relegation then? I think Mark and I both

21:10

find this quite fascinating area. This season, obviously,

21:12

we've had the three teams who were promoted

21:14

going back down. We've got the lowest tally

21:16

of points of a bottom three sides

21:19

in a Premier League season. That

21:21

would point to the Gulf being bigger than ever.

21:24

I guess. And we have

21:26

one primary concern, which is the cliff

21:28

edge, the gap

21:30

between the bottom of the Premier League

21:33

and the top of the championship, which

21:36

is now certainly for the non

21:38

parachute clubs, a hundred million. That's an

21:40

incredibly difficult gap to

21:42

bridge. And really, I think what we're

21:44

saying is we're all for sporting jeopardy. That's

21:47

what the game needs. For every winner,

21:49

you have to have a loser. But what

21:51

we need is sporting jeopardy without financial

21:53

catastrophe. And that means on the way

21:56

up or on the way

21:58

down, we will get it next weekend. media

22:00

will be all about the richest game on the

22:02

planet. Yeah. Well, it shouldn't be. Yeah. It really,

22:04

really shouldn't be. That is the problem. That is

22:07

not the solution. Is it of as much concern

22:09

to you that we were

22:11

very close to the three going

22:13

up being the same three

22:15

that came down a year

22:17

ago with your EFL hat on? So the

22:20

first thing to say is, thank God for

22:22

Ipswich, who bucked the trend there. But Leicester

22:24

are up. Leeds and Southampton

22:26

are in the playoff final. You come down from

22:28

the Premier League. You get 44 million, don't

22:30

you, in that first year? Gone up a bit.

22:33

It's it'll be nearly 50 million

22:35

next season. Forget the Premier League.

22:37

That makes one of your competitions

22:39

less competitive. Absolutely. And if

22:42

you look at the last

22:44

seven seasons now, two

22:47

out of the three promoted clubs have been parachute

22:49

clubs. Sooner or later, it will be three out

22:51

of three. And as Gabby said, when

22:54

you tie that in with the three coming

22:56

straight back down, that's

22:58

a concern for the Premier League. It doesn't just

23:00

need competition at the top. It

23:03

needs healthy clubs coming up, thriving,

23:05

competing and a mix. Pushing

23:07

all those teams in the middle of the

23:09

table, not feeling like there's almost three bands

23:11

to the Premier League then, isn't there? There's

23:13

that kind of, you know, that bottom five

23:15

or six of which three are inevitably

23:18

the three that have come up. You know,

23:20

you very rarely get a breakaway from that

23:22

bottom three. I know you look at Luton's

23:25

results. They've had some really tight results, haven't

23:27

they? Some last minute goals against and things could

23:29

have gone very differently. And it's experience. Where do

23:31

you buy experience from? You've got to be there. How many of

23:33

you got to be in it to understand how the league works?

23:35

And it's that step up, isn't it, that I think teams

23:38

find so difficult. They've got to increase their squads.

23:40

They've got to buy more players and bring in

23:42

players that are more expensive. And then

23:44

all for what? You look at the Norwich model

23:46

where they seem to resign themselves. But we're not

23:49

going to do that. We're going to invest our

23:51

money elsewhere. We're just going to keep kind of

23:53

floating up and down. Hopefully it hasn't worked for

23:55

them this time, obviously. You know, that in itself

23:57

seems quite dispiriting. working

24:00

the system. It works for them and

24:02

they are sustainable. You know,

24:04

what we want to do is to halve the cliff

24:07

edge so that clubs aren't at the risk of busting

24:09

themselves when they do go up. And

24:11

we think that the parachute is just a

24:13

completely bogus solution. We've had three clubs who've

24:16

got wage bills of 60, 70, 80 million. The

24:20

others are bouncing around at 20 million. How

24:24

are they supposed to compete? And they can't.

24:27

The other risk in the championship, which we've

24:29

talked about before, Rick, is you

24:31

then get a different kind of

24:33

owner who goes, I'm going to gamble the club.

24:35

And it is a gamble. I'm going to gamble

24:37

the club, the future of the club, on trying

24:40

to get the golden ticket into the Premier League.

24:43

And if that goes wrong, then the club

24:45

could just fall all the way down the

24:47

leagues. What's your plan? Owner

24:50

funding is great. Until

24:52

it isn't. So

24:55

you look at Bolton with Eddie Davis, you

24:57

look at Derby with Mel Morris, Wigan with

25:00

Dave Whelan. When the owner

25:02

funding runs out, unless they have left

25:04

a legacy or a cushion, then the clubs fall off

25:06

the edge. Look at what nearly happened to Bolton. They

25:09

were within days of going out of business. Even

25:12

Reading. Listen, we absolutely understand

25:15

the concern of Reading fans and

25:17

the need for the club to

25:19

survive and the concerns about the owner. The owner did

25:21

put 150 million in and really had a go and tried to compete against

25:26

the parachute clubs, didn't and then lost heart,

25:29

lost interest. So it's that

25:31

gamble. And I mean, the average

25:34

funding that the championship

25:36

owners are putting in, 16 million

25:39

a year per club, it is the most expensive lottery

25:41

ticket on the planet. And it can't be

25:43

right. And with the regulator coming in

25:45

to secure

25:48

the sustainability of clubs and looking

25:51

at regulating cash flows and borrowings,

25:53

we can't continue. What's the most

25:55

important job for the regulator? We're

25:58

really happy to have a regulator. who

26:00

is independent, who's going to have more

26:02

transparency and where we get consistency across

26:05

the leagues, which is lacking at the

26:07

moment. So better regulation,

26:10

no problem at all. We did think we

26:12

could do it ourselves. We didn't think it

26:14

was necessary to have an independent regulator. And

26:16

really, we should be all hanging our heads

26:18

in shame that we couldn't sort it within

26:20

football because we've had 30 years to do

26:22

it. But actually, it's not

26:24

so much who regulates, it's how they regulate.

26:27

So provided it's done properly,

26:29

we will definitely embrace that. But if you

26:31

don't get redistribution right, you'll just regulate

26:33

clubs out of existence. Why couldn't you do it

26:35

yourselves? Nature of the game,

26:37

self interest. I mean, look at the way

26:39

we've struggled to get a deal done with

26:41

the Premier League on redistribution. It's

26:44

incredibly difficult. And when you've got two

26:46

separate leagues, nobody is

26:48

really looking at the good of the game

26:51

as a whole, which is to

26:53

an extent understandable. People in the

26:55

Premier League are concerned with staying in it. And

26:58

if you heard Steve Parrish and Tony

27:00

Bloom giving evidence to

27:02

the Bill Committee last week, you know, they're

27:04

looking upwards completely understand that. I mean, you

27:06

want them to maintain ambition. They're thinking how

27:09

do we catch the clubs

27:11

in Europe? What we're looking for is

27:13

a 75 25 split of the media

27:16

revenues that will wipe out the

27:18

losses of our clubs and

27:20

halve the cliff edge and eliminate

27:22

the need for the parachutes. Is

27:24

that 25% of

27:26

all Premier League media revenue? So that's

27:28

their domestic TV deal, their overseas TV

27:31

deal. That's what you're asking for. The

27:33

Premier League say Richard Masters says, I

27:35

think that the Premier League give away

27:37

16% of everything

27:39

at the moment to football. Well, they don't

27:42

complete nonsense because that

27:44

includes the parachute payments. What

27:46

Richard Masters said last week in his evidence

27:48

to the Bill Committee, which was interesting, is

27:51

that solidarity is 130 million a

27:53

year. Now, net media

27:56

revenues of the Premier League

27:58

and the EFL combined are... just call

28:00

it 3 billion to make it

28:02

an easy number, it changes every year, but

28:04

you call it 3 billion, 130 million is

28:07

less than 4% of 3 billion, that's just

28:09

simple arithmetic. So let's just be very clear,

28:11

in terms of solidarity, it's less

28:14

than 4%. Parachute

28:16

payments, which are 200 million

28:18

plus, within the championship,

28:20

the parachute payments are pretty much three

28:22

times as much as

28:25

the solidarity payments, and when the Premier League

28:27

talked 16%, first of all, they

28:30

talk about the money that we generate for ourselves,

28:32

and then they talk about parachute

28:34

payments. He's doing your old

28:36

job. You've been in that chair.

28:38

You've sat and done those deals.

28:40

Can you understand why

28:42

the Premier League are so

28:45

self-preserving here, because you've

28:47

been there? Maybe it was easier

28:49

times, but when we came up with the

28:51

75, sorry, the 50, 25, 25

28:54

split of

28:57

media revenues for the domestic

29:00

TV rights for the Premier League, which was

29:03

pretty contentious at the time. There had been

29:05

rouse over the previous 10 years over how

29:07

the money was split. It

29:10

changed every two or three years. There

29:12

were threats of breakaways till we had the breakaway.

29:15

The 50, 25, 25 formula

29:17

has stood for 30 years. It took

29:20

us two hours. The last thing I

29:22

want Mr. Sander is xenophobic in any way, shape

29:24

or form, but do you think it

29:27

was simpler because of the owners

29:29

that you had at the

29:31

time? We have global owners now, and

29:33

actually, it's not just about nationality. There

29:36

are the hedge funds invested. There are

29:38

the investment capital people. I would imagine

29:40

30 years ago, the people you were

29:44

dealing with had a historic

29:48

feeling for the

29:50

pyramid system that we have, that to

29:53

give Richard Masters the benefit of the

29:55

doubt he doesn't necessarily have. Yes, absolutely.

29:57

I mean, dealing with Ken Bates. No,

30:00

sir, Alan Sugar was a sufficient

30:02

encompass, not not a Hi Maisie

30:04

getting zapped the muslims. A success.

30:07

But there is a serious point here in

30:09

the it's. What? We did have

30:11

an I think maybe it's an opportunity we

30:13

mister levy in them think about that time.

30:15

What we did have was all the owners

30:18

around the table. Which. Was

30:20

a family live show. New experience

30:22

for me at times, but actually.

30:25

The. Real deal makers on they want

30:27

solutions So we had some pretty feisty

30:29

discussions. But. You would stay there to

30:31

do the a decision. But I guess what?

30:33

the? Point months making is why would a

30:35

sovereign Wealth fund really care about seats

30:37

of cruelly I think the Point Gabi

30:40

as it's who is the sovereign Wealth

30:42

funds to interview with who is.individual who

30:44

are you dealing with and one of

30:46

the things that the American sports do

30:48

and the sudden think it's may be

30:50

a missed opportunity You have to have

30:52

a nominated member of the ownership group.

30:55

Who goes to every meeting? They are the problem.

30:57

I don't dance I thought that responds with and

30:59

we don't have very. I would feel uneasy thinks

31:02

it's to be able to insist on. A.

31:04

Probably wouldn't be easy to insist on. Could

31:06

have to get the Cubs to vote for

31:08

it. Now saw it does seem to be

31:10

a fairly common sense thing and it's a

31:12

sad sad we have the time. so we

31:14

should have a rule that says that the

31:16

owners must come to the meetings but we

31:18

didn't think of it because they did a

31:20

mentions you're keeping that the inception the Premier

31:22

League and I'm what you couldn't still seen

31:24

as you said nobody could is said that

31:26

the vast amounts of money now that they're

31:29

able to see said global television rise and

31:31

I'm wondering this things he taught never had

31:33

difficulty is to reach. A situation where

31:35

the distribution looks and is famous

31:37

for the whole pyramid? I'm wondering

31:39

is these these challenges will lead

31:41

us down the track to another.

31:44

Attempt. At some kind of breakaway, some

31:46

kind of safely ball those clubs at the

31:48

top. Seal. That they're. Being

31:51

pushed, In a way that

31:53

they don't want anymore or she think

31:55

the problem is more with the. Not.

31:57

the bigger clubs i think it's more

31:59

with the club who are fighting to

32:01

stay in the Premier League and

32:04

fighting to catch the six. Here's

32:06

an interesting stat. I don't want to bore you to death

32:09

with stats. Well I do. But

32:11

they're relevant, Rick. To be fair, they are

32:13

relevant. Here's my favourite. This is one I

32:15

did on Boxing Day which shows what a

32:17

satellite I lead. So

32:20

if you look at the 14 non-permanent members of

32:22

the Premier League, on average they have been in

32:24

the Premier League for 13 years each. Now we've

32:26

had the Premier League for 32 years so

32:29

that also means by definition they've been in the EFL for 19

32:31

years. If

32:33

you look at the 14 clubs in the EFL

32:36

who've been in the

32:38

Premier League for the longest bounce, so

32:40

your Middlesbroughs, Blackburns, Boltons have

32:42

also on average been in the Premier League

32:44

for 13 years. Exactly the

32:46

same. So what

32:49

we would say is over the years they

32:51

have contributed equally to the

32:54

success and the build-up of the

32:56

Premier League. The

32:58

14 in the Premier League will get 1.9 billion

33:00

between them this year. The 14 that were

33:03

with us for the time being will get 90 million. If

33:06

you've got 25% of the

33:09

media revenue that the Premier League brings

33:11

in, how does that work? What

33:14

happens? The biggest challenge we

33:16

have financially is within

33:18

the championship. So I said the

33:20

championship clubs are losing in the order of 16 million

33:23

a year. Actually fixing the

33:25

problems in League 1 and League 2 are

33:27

not that difficult and the impact of a

33:29

championship club going bust will be far greater

33:32

than that would vary. So broadly

33:34

75% of the money would stay

33:37

in the championship and then

33:39

25% would go into Leagues 1

33:42

and Leagues 2. I was chatting to

33:44

my friends who are involved with Bolton

33:47

Wanderers and in the weeks

33:49

leading up to playoffs and then the player final and

33:51

of course they want their club to be successful, of

33:54

course they want to grow, but the step

33:56

up in what they need in revenue and where

34:00

to get that from. They already

34:02

have great attendances, they maximise the

34:04

property that they have there,

34:06

they do their very best to keep a really

34:08

good spreadsheet on the club. As

34:11

much as they really wanted to win that

34:14

match against Oxford United, they obviously had

34:16

huge problems looming in

34:18

terms of where they were going to

34:20

go with that. That

34:22

seems again counterintuitive to this idea

34:25

of wanting success, doesn't it? That

34:27

your biggest feeling is not one

34:29

of excitement, as it should be. Where

34:32

is the cash going to come from? The

34:34

problem is in the championship, it's looming further down, isn't

34:37

it? Because you're kind of going, well, what's the point

34:39

of coming up? Because how are we going to stay

34:41

there? How are we going to stay there and not

34:43

waste money? And if we go back down, how much

34:45

are we going to be throwing away and then put

34:47

ourselves in a more precarious position if we go back

34:50

down again? If we had our 75-25 split and we

34:52

had much tighter regulation

34:55

because we have to make sure that

34:57

clubs don't waste it and aren't

34:59

profligate, in theory at least,

35:01

that would enable every club to break even

35:03

and it would enable clubs to rise right

35:07

up the pyramid without having

35:09

to buy that expensive lottery ticket.

35:12

So Bolton wouldn't be having

35:14

to think, and if you heard Sharon

35:17

Britton's impassioned presentation to

35:19

the Bill Committee last week, it's... If we

35:21

get into the championship on Saturday and

35:23

everybody's saying, it's incredible, it's marvellous,

35:26

it's wonderful, our fans,

35:28

it's just fabulous. We move

35:30

into a world where it's not

35:32

a competition anymore because how can

35:34

we compete with the clubs that have

35:36

come down from the Premier League? Allow

35:38

the championship to play with us. I

35:40

am hugely respectful of money. For me

35:43

to go back to our investors and

35:45

say we need 20 million a season

35:48

to try to be... But we're not even really

35:50

competitive because the chances are the three that come

35:52

down, if you look over the last three, six

35:54

years, the three that come down, because

35:56

they've got the parachute papers, they go straight back up.

36:01

Just on your new TV deal, which

36:03

is now going to see over a

36:05

thousand matches broadcast every season

36:07

across the AFL, the deal that's been

36:09

done with Sky, do you

36:12

have any concerns about that

36:14

deal when it comes to

36:16

the match going experience? We've

36:18

been streaming games now

36:21

for several years. Some

36:23

clubs have been generating a lot

36:25

of revenue from streaming. There

36:28

are still clubs who are nervous

36:30

about the impact on attendances. But

36:33

if you look at the way our attendances are

36:35

rising, here's the great paradox

36:37

with football that despite all of these

36:40

financial issues, the

36:42

AFL season has been absolutely phenomenal.

36:45

We've had two seasons recently

36:48

where only one game out

36:50

of the entire football league

36:52

program didn't impact on the

36:55

top or bottom of the respective divisions.

36:57

I think League One on the final

36:59

day this season, Gabby, I think we

37:01

had to have reporters at nine of

37:03

the 12 games because there

37:05

was something on it. League

37:07

Two had four or five teams who could still

37:09

make the play off on the final day. And

37:11

also there were 70,000 at

37:14

Wembley on Saturday for Oxford and Bolton.

37:16

And the attendance is highest for 100

37:18

years. So the

37:21

appetite to be there is still

37:23

very high. You can't

37:25

beat the match going experience. Do you,

37:27

the AFL, do anything to support National

37:30

League North and South? Because

37:32

if we're talking pyramid-wise and you're looking to

37:34

the Premier League, do they

37:36

look to you? And if they came to you

37:38

and went, can we have a slice of your

37:40

media deal to help us

37:42

because they have their own corporate media deal

37:44

with TNT, what would you say?

37:47

We would say absolutely. We have to look downwards

37:49

as well as upwards. And I

37:51

think the most important thing if you spoke to National

37:53

League clubs would be the three up

37:55

and three down. How do we justify two up

37:58

and two down? And we

38:00

would say, listen, as part

38:02

of the overall package, once we get an

38:05

overall package, these are things that we have

38:07

to address and we have to be

38:09

responsible. And I said it

38:11

absolutely. And if we didn't look downwards, we

38:15

would be rightly criticized. The sports

38:17

agents. The

38:19

sports agents. With Gabby Logan and

38:21

Mark Chapman. He

38:25

never shirts anything, does Rick. I think people

38:27

can love him or hate him, as people

38:29

can with anybody in sport. But it does

38:31

always seem to me to be honest in

38:34

his answer. Unculpable. He kind of says, yeah,

38:36

that could have been done better or that might

38:38

have been a wasted period of time. We should

38:40

have got more done. You kind of

38:42

feel like he understands the challenges. He's

38:45

a bit frustrated. He is frustrated.

38:47

I also thought he might. That last

38:49

bit when we asked him about looking

38:52

down the pyramid, as opposed to looking up

38:54

and their TV deal and would they share

38:56

that with National League and so on. Genuinely,

38:59

I thought he might go into a politician mode there

39:01

in Toronto. But he was really honest in like, yes,

39:03

we can't be hypocritical. If we want some of that

39:05

pie, we would share it down.

39:07

I think it's such an amazing product

39:09

as the AFL. It's such a brilliant

39:11

thing for people who are overseas or

39:13

don't watch it. It's such a brilliant

39:15

product and all these clubs are rooted

39:17

in communities. You just want

39:20

it supported correctly

39:22

by the footballing authorities so that everybody has

39:24

their share. Yeah, and it's not just the

39:26

men's teams we see on the pitch. There's behind

39:28

that, as you said, a community. There's the women's

39:30

teams. There's the youth teams, the underage, what they

39:32

mean to the communities and the towns that they

39:35

come from historically. All of that.

39:37

And I think that is why if

39:39

you're a football fan, you should support this

39:41

proposed change in terms of how the

39:43

money is distributed. Remember if you

39:46

get in touch with us on email, feel free

39:48

to point out any potential future

39:50

MP who gets their sporting knowledge

39:52

wrong. Well, Rishi Sunak has had

39:54

a blinder, hasn't he? What's he

39:56

done? He was in a brewery

39:58

in Wales. to

40:00

people there and he asked them if

40:02

they were looking forward to the Euros. So

40:07

lovely, lovely start to his sporting journey

40:10

on this election trail. Any kind of

40:12

thing that you spot like that feel

40:14

free to let us know, the sportsagents

40:17

at global.com or on our socials. Leave

40:19

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40:23

our episodes like our chat with Alexander Zinchenko

40:25

earlier this week or our bonus episode

40:28

with our boxing referee and judge Ian

40:30

John Lewis will of course be available.

40:32

He explained how difficult it is to call

40:34

a world championship fight like Usyk and Fury

40:36

and has had a lot of feedback actually people

40:39

really enjoying how he kind of said if the

40:41

opposition corner says thank you at the end of

40:43

a fight you know you've done a good job. There's a

40:45

few people kind of really enjoying the insights as

40:47

we did. Well absolutely we also spent

40:49

a lot of time telling him how good he

40:51

looked and then to prove it that night he

40:53

then sent us a video of him working out

40:55

on the back. I thought you just sent it

40:57

to me. So

41:01

all of those episodes, not the

41:04

video of Ian working out, are

41:06

on Global Player or wherever you

41:08

get your podcasts. Have a great

41:11

weekend. The Sports Agents with

41:13

Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman