0:00

To protect his family from disaster, Steve

0:02

used his... camera phone. Done.

0:05

By taking pictures of his important documents, Steve

0:08

can always have them stored online. Learn more

0:10

simple disaster prep tips at ready.gov. A message

0:12

from FEMA and the Ad Council. This

0:17

is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:20

Hi Mark. Hi Gabby. It's been

0:22

another brilliant week on the show, plenty to tell

0:24

you about, so we're back with another weekend edition

0:26

of The Sports Agents. The

0:36

Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan and

0:38

Mark Chapman. As

0:42

elite football clubs around Europe closed in on

0:44

their managerial targets for the summer, we were

0:46

joined in the studio by a Premier League

0:48

Director to really find out how that kind

0:50

of process works. But first, an interview

0:52

with UK cyclist Lizzie Banks, whose life

0:54

was turned upside down following a failed

0:57

drugs test, now at war with the

0:59

world's anti-doping authority in order to clear

1:01

her name. Underfunded

1:26

because they haven't got the science that they

1:28

need, you know what, because it's not in

1:31

their interest, is it, to have Lizzie Banks

1:33

taking them on like this, right? And you

1:35

will. They only know that now, don't they?

1:37

Yeah, but they, you know, they want to

1:39

be... we're going into an Olympics, right? They

1:42

want to have their reputation intact,

1:44

they want to feel that, you know,

1:46

people can trust their results, you know,

1:48

that they are the ultimate gatekeeper for

1:50

safe, clean sport. And this

1:52

is on the back of the case of other

1:54

23 Chinese swimmers, where water are being scrutinised by,

1:56

you know, worldwide by all

1:59

national anti-doping agents. which is not

2:01

good for them. I completely agree

2:03

with you. So I think the problem is

2:05

there are many aspects to this problem.

2:07

Of course they are underfunded. They are

2:09

definitely underfunded, but I believe they are

2:11

blindly ignorant to the issues. So

2:14

I received an email. We emailed them. I

2:16

thought they've got to know about this. And

2:18

they said, Clortaodone is not a known contaminant

2:20

of meat or medication, something like that. And

2:23

then another email later I kept pressing and

2:25

I kept pressing and they basically told

2:27

me that they do not keep records of

2:29

what has been contaminated with what. So

2:32

WADA, who are the World Anti-Doping

2:34

Agency, do not know

2:36

what substances have been contaminated by

2:38

what. And so if they don't

2:40

keep records, then who does? And

2:43

the answer is no one. And they said one

2:45

of the really worrying things that they said is

2:48

that they don't have the resources to

2:50

do this because there are hundreds at

2:53

any given time for all different substances. And

2:55

I was like, okay, right. So you've got thousands

2:57

of contaminations happening, possible

3:00

contaminations happening. You don't keep any record

3:02

of it. So you wait for an

3:04

athlete who happens to have the support

3:06

structure, the money to fund

3:08

this, to do all the research, to provide

3:11

it to you, and then you change the

3:13

rules. How many lives have to be lost

3:15

before that happens? Do you think they

3:17

have a nigh on impossible job? No.

3:20

No. I

3:22

believe this can be reconciled. And

3:24

I will write a letter to them

3:27

once the appeals window is possible, write

3:29

an open letter with how I believe

3:31

this can be reconciled scientifically from both

3:33

sides, from an athlete's perspective, but also

3:35

to ensure the strict liability, ensure that

3:37

athletes are undertaking those responsibilities they must

3:40

do in order to make sure they only

3:42

use batch tested supplements, make sure they are as

3:44

careful as they must be, which is the reason I was

3:46

able to show this, that I'd shown the utmost

3:48

care. And athletes must be

3:50

cautious. They have a duty of care to be cautious.

3:53

But the anti-doping agencies have a duty

3:56

of care to athletes. And at the moment,

3:58

they are not fulfilling that. So,

4:00

Dick Pound, who was in charge of WADA,

4:02

wasn't he? Dick Pound once told me when

4:04

I was doing a documentary on Lance Armstrong

4:06

that he always felt that the cheaters will

4:08

always be one step ahead because of the,

4:10

whether that because of money

4:13

or science. But what strikes

4:15

me in this discussion is

4:18

that actually, by always thinking about the real

4:20

cheaters, do you know what I mean? There

4:23

is a middle ground here where people are

4:25

being thrown to the

4:27

wolves because of the state of

4:29

science or hormones or the food

4:31

industry or medication or big pharma

4:33

or whatever it may be. And

4:36

I wonder whether we're at a stage of everything

4:38

has to be stripped back rather than stuff being

4:40

added on and added on and added on and

4:43

added on. You virtually have to

4:45

start from zero again

4:47

and then build it up.

4:49

Is that how you feel? I

4:51

think you've really hit the nail on the head there. Like

4:53

this system right now is not fit for

4:55

purpose. This system, like I said, it was

4:57

introduced, the draconian system was introduced because of

4:59

the athletes of yesteryear. And

5:01

so it's not currently fit for what we've

5:04

got. And the athletes who

5:06

do want to dope are generally one step ahead.

5:08

I mean, I'm sure you'll have athletes who want

5:10

to dope in a stupid way and

5:12

then take something blindingly obvious. But

5:15

I do think the system needs complete

5:17

change. But I also think that

5:20

there is a way to more

5:22

easily and with less money, implement

5:24

systems that can make a real

5:26

difference. And yeah, something

5:29

has to change. It's just not fit

5:31

for purpose right now. So I know UKAD have said in

5:33

a statement they're looking into what they can do better

5:35

to support athletes. This is

5:37

rubbish because they knew months

5:39

and months ago that I was in a

5:41

dire way with my mental health. They did

5:44

nothing about it. And then they come

5:46

out seven months later and say, we're

5:48

so concerned about athletes' well-being. Well,

5:50

why didn't you do something about it when I flagged it up? The

5:52

source agents. To

5:54

protect his family from disaster, Steve used

5:56

his camera phone. Done.

6:00

By taking pictures of his important documents,

6:02

Steve can always have them stored online.

6:04

Learn more simple disaster prep tips at

6:06

ready.gov. A message from FEMA and the ad council.

6:12

The sports agents. With Gabby Logan

6:14

and Mark Chapman. I

6:19

walked away from that interview the other day, Mark.

6:21

And you know when something stays with you all

6:23

day? Yeah. And you think about that person, what

6:25

they've gone through, and how many other people will

6:27

have been faced with what would seem like an

6:30

absolutely impossible task. And I've just walked

6:32

away and she somehow found

6:34

it within herself to fight this. And

6:37

it really did kind of

6:39

give me lots of food for thought all day.

6:41

Yeah. And I had several

6:43

messages about it. And the

6:45

general just, you know, one of them here, which

6:47

we can just read out. I'm not sure having

6:49

listened to Lizzie what the solution is, but

6:52

clearly the status quo isn't

6:54

working. And that was there

6:57

is individual pain

6:59

at the heart of

7:01

this with every case and every

7:04

athlete that finds themselves in a

7:06

situation similar to Lizzie's. But

7:08

we seem to be in a situation where

7:12

everybody just keeps plowing on. No,

7:14

nobody seems to want to hit

7:16

a reset button in how we

7:18

deal with drugs in

7:20

sport. And you know, what's interesting

7:22

is how different it is from sport

7:24

to sport, because I was talking to my son who's

7:26

a full time player for Northampton Saints Rugby.

7:29

And he said, oh, we nobody has

7:31

at home tests anymore. He said, you know how dad

7:33

used to say Kenny, when he was a player, we'd

7:35

have a knock on the door. He said, nobody

7:37

has that anymore in rugby. It all happens at the

7:39

club, which is, you know, totally

7:41

different experience, obviously, because you never have

7:43

to worry about forgetting a drug

7:46

test or forgetting to be around and inform the way

7:48

you are. So it feels that that

7:50

that also doesn't seem very fair.

7:52

No, well, no. And actually subjected to

7:54

different treatment. Yeah. And actually, so so

7:56

for your son, that's all taken care

7:58

of in that situation. Whereas

8:01

Lizzie told us in that

8:03

interview, you have to go back and listen to

8:06

it, but she was in exactly the same situation

8:08

as you and Kenny were with notes outside her

8:10

house if the doorbell isn't working or if the

8:12

electricity has dropped off to say exactly

8:15

where she is. I think it

8:17

also was interesting. You remember Christina Horigu had

8:19

a missed broadcast and was

8:22

out of the spore. And at

8:24

the time you kind of go, oh, how could you miss a

8:26

train? But when you listen to how

8:28

it impacts on your life and what you've got to

8:30

think about from day to day, it's

8:32

draining. It's a wonder you've got the energy to

8:34

actually go off and do your sport.

8:36

You're so busy organizing everything for your

8:38

drugstore. Yeah. Also on that

8:40

episode, we talked about the importance of

8:42

rivalry in running. We talked about the

8:44

strength of middle distance running in

8:47

Great Britain with Keely Hodgkinson

8:49

and Josh Kerr. So there's plenty more on

8:51

that episode about those two. And

8:53

then to Thursday's show, Premier League Director Jack

8:55

Sullivan, son of majority owner David Sullivan at

8:58

West Ham, joined us in the studio. You'll

9:00

hear a bit of that shortly. Fans

9:04

want as much as possible. They want as

9:06

much information as possible. I think you have

9:08

some publications that will write anything and

9:11

that goes everywhere. And I think that

9:13

can be very, very damaging compared to

9:15

the stuff that is actually true. We

9:18

have people who love all different sports who

9:20

listen to this podcast. So take us back

9:22

to your background then. Your dad is David

9:24

Sullivan, who is owner of West Ham. And

9:26

you as a 13 year old lad

9:29

were publicly pointing

9:32

people in the direction on social media

9:35

of what was happening with West Ham transfer wise.

9:37

I started tweeting. This deal was close.

9:39

But I never used

9:41

to mention names to be fair. What was your thinking

9:43

when you were putting that stuff out there, having just

9:45

said what you said? I was a 13 year

9:47

old child. That's my thinking. To

9:51

be brutally honest with you, it's just one of

9:54

those things that I look back and it probably

9:56

was something I do regret.

9:59

My thinking. at the time was I

10:01

thought we were better off to put

10:03

out what's actually happening rather than all

10:05

these other sources saying this is happening, that's

10:07

happening. But to be honest with you, now I

10:09

look back, I think you're almost better off to

10:11

have lots of speculation

10:14

because at least no one can pin anyone

10:16

down on speculation. I

10:18

think he just saw it as part of my learning really.

10:20

He's a very level-headed,

10:23

he doesn't really let press

10:25

or anything sort of bother him. And because he's,

10:27

to be honest, not on social media, I don't

10:29

think he quite realised how much noise

10:32

some of it was making. Because at

10:34

12 and 13, a lot of owners of football

10:36

clubs might not let their kids be privy to

10:38

that information. So was this just dinner table conversation?

10:40

To be honest, my dad was extremely open.

10:42

I used to sit in when

10:45

we appointed lots of managers before

10:47

we'd appoint them or when agents

10:50

would come to the house to negotiate deals

10:52

and things. And Dad thought it

10:54

was a very important part of mine and my brother's

10:57

education if we were ever going to be involved

10:59

in football, that we're part of these conversations and

11:01

would not necessarily say anything in the meetings, but

11:04

we would turn around and we'd say, hey, go,

11:06

what do you think of that? Do you think

11:08

that? And then he'd be like, I think this

11:10

was slightly too high. I think this was right.

11:12

I think we could live with this, educate

11:15

ourselves and understand and see all of

11:17

that. And to be honest, it's mega

11:19

exciting, you're a 13-year-old sort of, like sort of

11:22

seeing all of this. But to be honest, even

11:24

when I was younger than that, I used to

11:26

sit in on meetings with Sam

11:28

and with whoever. Dad thought it was

11:30

a really, really important part of how

11:32

we developed. So

11:35

that was Jack Sullivan, director at West

11:37

Ham. And then also on that podcast,

11:40

we talked about the head coach who's

11:42

replacing Emma Hayes at Chelsea, and then

11:44

also the netball news this week, Gabby.

11:46

Yeah, which is the restructuring of the

11:48

Super League teams being dropped because apparently

11:51

they haven't got big enough stadia to play

11:54

the game in. And the regional discrepancy here where

11:56

the whole of the Southwest Now is without

11:58

a club and team math are now. How

12:00

A drops from the Super League and they

12:02

were one of that the big clubs and

12:04

attracted. Some big name players and we're going to

12:06

discuss that more. Think. Next week home and yet

12:08

we also have we want your thoughts on

12:10

that as well as possible sick leave your

12:13

an Apple plaid the sports agents at global.com

12:15

if you want to send us an email

12:17

on that and of course to scroll back

12:19

through the sports. Agency to the since all

12:21

of those episodes and Soul and many other.

12:23

Interviews with them besides I global

12:25

player or wherever you get your

12:27

podcasts and will have more every

12:29

Tuesday and Thursday. See you next

12:31

week! Causation Swiss Army Knife and

12:33

not. Prepared

12:46

as your family. you can just

12:48

close the door on earthquakes, floods

12:50

or hurricanes and hope they go

12:52

away said slices and to make

12:54

a plan Now.gov Last class has

12:56

the tools as if you need

12:58

to prepare your family. third Emergency.

13:01

Sister: she's a big you do said. You'll

13:05

be read. As

13:07

class plant plant.