0:02

This is a Global Player original podcast. So

0:04

it's been the end of the second week

0:06

of the Euros with us in Germany and

0:08

we're back with another weekend edition of The

0:10

Sports Agents. The

0:20

Sports Agents. With Gabby Logan

0:22

and Mark Chapman. This

0:26

week we've been back to our favourite

0:28

old subject of profit and sustainability rules

0:30

in football but from the angle of

0:32

whether clubs are exploiting it with the

0:35

transfer of young players. So we'll get

0:37

onto that in a while. You'll hear

0:39

from the Chief Exec of the PFA.

0:41

But first of all after members of

0:43

the England squad fought back at media

0:45

scrutiny after lacklustre performances in the group

0:48

stages at the Euros, we spoke to

0:50

Connor Cody who's been in the last

0:52

couple of England squads at tournaments but

0:54

not in this one about what it's like trying

0:56

to block out the public reaction at a major

0:58

tournament. I

1:01

actually quite like it. I'll be honest from my own point

1:04

of view. Have the players have hit back? Yeah I quite

1:06

like it. I quite like it. I think it shows us

1:08

coming together a little bit. I can imagine they've sat down

1:10

and listened to a few things that were said and spoke

1:12

as a team and spoke as a unit and gone, we've

1:15

got to show people. And I quite like that. I

1:18

think that's a good thing. I think if we're looking

1:20

from the media side or from a supporters side and

1:22

you see the team doing that, coming together and hopefully

1:24

creating a little bit of a siege mentality, not against

1:26

the press, certainly not against the press, but a

1:29

little bit of a feeling to go into that game and

1:31

go right, now we need to show people. We need to

1:33

show people how we play, how we do things. We've seen

1:35

it a little bit with Belgium the other night with how

1:37

they played. They got a bit of stick after the first

1:39

game and they come back and they were fantastic. So I'm

1:41

hoping that that helps the team a little bit. The

1:44

cliche is isn't it? You get

1:46

criticism and it then gets pinned up

1:49

on the dressing room wall and managers will go, well,

1:51

I don't need to do anything else. This

1:53

is the criticism. Go and respond to it. Yeah,

1:55

I don't think that does happen,

1:58

but I don't think that's needed in this situation. because I don't

2:00

think you need to pin on the wall. Everybody when

2:02

you play for England, you're seeing, you hear everything and

2:05

you can say you shut it out, you can say that

2:07

you don't. Do you not? Because you

2:10

go into this tournament and they talk about shutting it

2:12

out, don't they? They talk about not being on social

2:14

media. You can't, can you?

2:16

No, you can't. And I've said it a few times and

2:18

I think if you want the good stuff when

2:20

you play for England, which is the best thing in the world,

2:22

playing for England is the pinnacle of any football player's career. You

2:24

want all the good stuff that comes with it, but at the

2:26

same time, you need to take the rough with the smooth. You've

2:29

got to understand that you're there to be criticised. If you don't

2:31

play well, that's going to happen. And how do you react to

2:33

that situation? So I don't think it needs to be pinned on

2:35

the wall. I just think people need

2:37

to realise and players within the squad will realise

2:39

that we have to get better. But

2:41

also knowing that we've got a point to prove

2:43

here. And I think that's what we're hearing at

2:45

this moment. Are they just consuming it through social

2:47

media? Is it social media? Because it used to

2:50

be, as you say, you know, it was newspapers,

2:52

it was red tops. It was the image of

2:54

players in camp flipping through newspapers. Are they pouring

2:57

over social media? I think probably social media is also a

2:59

big part of it. But also I can speak from my

3:01

own point of view. And I've got papers on my phone

3:03

now. So I look at papers on my phone. Well, I

3:05

want to say that. I mean, it's obviously digitally, it doesn't

3:07

mean you're just looking at other people's accounts, because

3:10

everything is reported, isn't it? So everything that

3:12

people say on other podcasts, or people

3:14

say on TV stations is reported through

3:16

your phone. You don't need to have

3:19

a crime source. No, not at all. And

3:21

unless you're going to take your phone off people, but

3:23

you've got to remember in camp, you've got a lot of free time. So

3:25

if you sat in your room, you sat on a coffee, you sat doing

3:27

something, you sat on a physio bed, you're going to be

3:30

sat on your phone. And what do you do? You sat

3:32

on your phone, your message, your WhatsApp. And then when you

3:34

finish doing that, what do you do? All the papers, they

3:36

have a little bit of paper. And everything's England. Everything's England. So

3:38

you've got to be strong enough. My point with that is that

3:40

if you're going to play with England, you're going to play for

3:42

England, which is the greatest thing you'll ever do, you've got to

3:44

be strong. There was a slight intonation, wasn't there?

3:46

And I think from Harry Kane

3:49

that the press should support them.

3:51

Right. And I think that, you know,

3:53

there are sections of the media who would say, well,

3:55

our job is to critique, right? Do you

3:57

think that, you know, now you're on this side of the world?

3:59

Yeah. the fence. Do you think that is the

4:01

job of the media? I do think we can

4:03

give them more support if I'm being honest. I'm a player point of view.

4:06

Not just the media, I'm in the whole country. I don't

4:08

just mean the media. I think the media in our country

4:10

is actually really good. The relationship that the media now has

4:13

with the England team is so much

4:15

better than where it was. I think that's where it needs

4:17

to be and I think that's where it needs to stay.

4:19

You don't want people at loggerheads, the team and the media, the media

4:22

and the team. You don't need that at loggerheads. But I just

4:24

think the way they've come out the last few days,

4:27

I just think it's right to do that. There's a little

4:29

bit of bite, there's a little bit of we're together, so

4:31

stop worrying. I think that's where it

4:33

needs to be because again, we said on commentary about

4:35

let's just stay calm and see where we're at.

4:38

We're here, we're where we need to be going into the

4:40

next round and that's where it's at. From a media

4:42

point of view, because it has been such a different

4:44

atmosphere under Gareth Southgate and I did that England role

4:47

for quite a few championships and stopped after Russia,

4:49

which was a great place to stop because that

4:51

seemed to be the start of this whole new

4:53

experience. It was brilliant in that camp. Gareth was

4:56

very giving and the players just seemed to be...

4:58

You felt like you'd taken them as far as

5:00

you could in your role. It

5:03

was all the Gabby's doing. She'd laid the

5:05

foundation. I said, this is time for me

5:07

to go there. Because I got to the

5:09

Euros and of course, Kelly, someone started doing

5:11

my job and they got to the blinking final. So

5:13

I was like, you know what? I was peeling the

5:16

plaster and just ripped it off. But that

5:18

was such a joy to be in that camp

5:20

because the atmosphere was so great and the players

5:22

seemed to enjoy that interaction. Because previously it felt

5:24

like you were really having to drive them out

5:26

to do interviews. They didn't want to be there.

5:28

They felt suspicious of everything. So I'm really

5:30

mindful that we don't want to go back

5:32

to that feeling that the players are

5:35

suspicious of the media. They don't want to do

5:37

interviews. They don't want to give of themselves. And

5:39

you were saying your experience inside those camps with

5:41

Gareth has been really one of being quite

5:43

open and giving in terms of the... And

5:46

I think that relationship with the media has helped

5:48

England get to where they are. I really do.

5:50

I really think it's a big fact. We hear

5:52

stories of the past when people were clashing at

5:54

me. I could never imagine that because

5:56

I look at the England team now and go, the

5:58

experience I've had there with the media, with the... lads

6:00

inside the camp with the staff has just been incredible

6:02

and the way the manager has

6:04

meetings about everything, taking everything

6:07

on board, listening to the media,

6:09

using them, having the media there to help you

6:11

and respecting the media that's a massive part and

6:13

I think that's another big big thing of wearing

6:15

the dazs. Why we've been to a final, why

6:17

we got to the World Cup quarters and we

6:19

come this close to it in my eyes we

6:21

should have got through to the semis, the semis

6:23

in Russia I think it's a massive factor in

6:25

why there's been a feel-good factor around the national

6:27

team all these last few years. The sports agents.

6:33

The sports agents with Gabby Logan

6:36

and Mark Chapman. With

6:40

the financial year for Premier League clubs now

6:42

at an end there's been a flurry of

6:44

transfer activity between teams thought to be concerned

6:47

with the state of their profit and sustainability.

6:50

Have they found a loophole by

6:52

buying academy graduates from each other

6:54

with limited top flight experience? We

6:57

spoke to Professor of Applied Sports

6:59

Finance, Rob Wilson. So

7:02

if you take the situation at Chelsea over the

7:04

last couple of years they've ended

7:06

up accruing around about £200 million

7:08

worth of transfer fees owing so

7:10

that counts against their PSR calculation

7:14

and if they've got a connegalaga

7:16

for instance he represents 100% pure

7:18

PSR profit to them

7:22

so we were all expecting as analysts before they

7:24

did the hotel and the women's

7:26

training ground deal that they would have to sell

7:28

somebody like him and of course it's more efficient

7:31

to do that isn't it so you book 50-60

7:33

million pounds worth of PSR profit on

7:35

Galaga rather than you sell

7:37

four or five other players to book

7:39

the same amount of profit so it's

7:42

a very efficient way selling your

7:44

academy prospects your homegrown talent

7:46

for PSR purposes. They're

7:48

doing nothing wrong here are they? I

7:51

mean that's the important part to

7:53

say you know signing a young

7:55

academy prospect from another

7:58

club is perfectly fine. A

8:00

very, very famous example, Manchester United signing Wayne

8:02

Rooney at the age of 17, 18, who

8:06

come through Everton's Academy. There are

8:08

so many other examples

8:10

that you can come up with, but

8:13

it does appear to be a loophole, doesn't

8:16

it? When you have clubs who

8:18

we are told are close to the

8:20

line on PSR involved

8:23

in this, and also, I

8:25

mean, if they were doing it on July

8:27

the 20th as opposed to June the 20th,

8:29

not sure it would

8:31

have drawn the attention that it has done. No,

8:33

it wouldn't. There'd be no eyebrows being raised if

8:36

it was in the next or the start of

8:38

the next PSR period. I

8:40

think it's not outlawed as part of

8:42

the regulation. The transfer of players, the

8:44

transfer of academy talent, the buying

8:47

and selling of young players is nothing

8:49

new, and it is entirely acceptable within

8:51

the realm of the regulation. The issue

8:53

we've got with the cases that we've

8:55

heard just recently are the size of

8:57

the transfer fees that are being paid,

9:00

presumably, for these players. There's a lot

9:02

of trading going on, remember? The clubs

9:04

that are involved in an almost three-stroke,

9:07

four-way kind of pathway of players, and

9:09

critically for me, the valuation that's being

9:12

put on those players that have essentially

9:14

had very, very few first-team minutes. That

9:17

opens up to question and debate the

9:19

rationale behind the setting of that transfer

9:21

fee, because for example, of Wayne

9:23

Rooney, I think he was 30 million, wasn't he,

9:26

when he transferred to Manchester United? You would say

9:28

he was probably worth that in the current market,

9:30

given his playing performances, that Wonder goalie scored, I

9:32

think it was against Arsenal, wasn't it, back in

9:34

the day. Very different context

9:36

to the players that we've seen moving

9:39

between those three or four clubs. I

9:42

think that's why, when we talk

9:44

about regulation, yes, it's a

9:46

loophole. We'll all find loopholes in regulations, but

9:49

the spirit of the regulation is not being followed,

9:51

I don't think, in this context. paid

10:00

how much for Anthony? Who the

10:02

hell valued that in any deal? You

10:04

could question the value. Yeah, you can.

10:06

And we do a huge amount of

10:08

analytical work at the university. So we're

10:10

trying to data drive some of these

10:12

decision makings. But I'll be quite honest

10:14

with you, Mark. The reality is that

10:16

it's more of an art than a

10:19

science in valuing a player because there's

10:21

the CIS of football observatory that's based in

10:24

Switzerland, for instance, will track young player movement.

10:26

They'll look at how many minutes those players

10:28

have played, the type of level that those

10:30

players have played at, and they will put

10:32

an assumed value on them. Clubs

10:35

use transfer market, which is essentially a

10:37

Wikipedia of how you value a player,

10:39

completely spurious in terms of valuation. I

10:42

guess ultimately, the player value

10:44

is determined by the buying club being

10:47

prepared to put up X amount of

10:49

million and the selling club being prepared

10:51

to sell that player. So use the

10:54

example of Anthony there. The reality was he

10:56

was probably on a data driven metric worth

10:58

25 to 30 million. But then you need

11:00

to add in the Manchester United premium, the

11:03

timing of the particular transfer, the fact that

11:05

I didn't want to sell him, and

11:07

the fact that they knew Manchester United were probably desperate

11:10

for that right in your field. So all of a

11:12

sudden, you add, add, add, add, add

11:14

to the transfer fee. And ultimately, they executed

11:17

that deal at that value. The sports

11:19

agents. The

11:24

sports agents with Gabby Logan and

11:26

Mark Chapman. Then

11:30

we had a chat about the players at the

11:32

heart of these deals. What did the PFA have

11:34

to say about it? What do they have to

11:36

say about the state of the transfer market as

11:38

a whole, and the impact on the welfare of

11:41

a young footballer? The PFA managing director, Mahita Malanga,

11:43

joined us. I

11:46

think what we've been concerned for a while about

11:48

is the lack of involvement

11:51

of players in certain decisions, which ultimately

11:53

have consequences on them. And this is a

11:55

very good example as to how on

11:57

paper for someone who may not be acquainted with football,

11:59

he may. he or she may think

12:01

that this is only a financial rule, but

12:03

in reality that financial rule has a direct

12:05

implication on the players because

12:07

then they get involved into transactions sometimes

12:09

which are sensible, sometimes they're not, but

12:12

most importantly because those may have

12:14

an impact on their career. So for

12:16

us it's yet again another reminder, it's

12:18

not just a nice to have, it's

12:20

important to understand what the consequences are

12:22

on players and most importantly what could

12:24

be the side effects or unintended consequences

12:26

of a regulation on the player and

12:29

I think that's what we're seeing now

12:31

over the last few days. Does a

12:33

transfer market work for

12:35

a player? It's a question that will

12:37

come to the front very shortly because

12:40

as you know there's an important case that

12:42

has gone under the radar called the D'Ara

12:44

case which is precisely discussing

12:47

whether the transfer

12:49

system is or not in line with

12:52

ordinary laws and the freedom of worker

12:54

to move around and it's a case

12:56

where there's been an opinion issued by the attorney general

12:58

a couple of months ago which has gone under the

13:00

radar but that case would

13:02

be adjudicated probably by mid-September

13:04

of next year, of this year sorry by

13:07

the European Court of Justice and that very

13:09

same question will be asked. If the system

13:11

is declared unlawful, what's next? That's

13:13

something that we as PFA are working on, we

13:16

try to be ready for that scenario because

13:18

I think what we've learned over the last

13:21

few months is that for as much as

13:23

football is special, it is not above the

13:25

law. It's European courts so it wouldn't pertain

13:27

to the UK would it? Yeah but ultimately

13:29

it would have effect on European

13:32

clubs at large irrespective of whether you

13:34

are part of the EU strictly

13:36

speaking or not and as you know typically

13:38

and this happened with Bosman, Bosman was a

13:40

European case yet to the extent that the

13:42

European market is the biggest then it will

13:44

have effect throughout the world including England. We

13:47

were in the EU obviously weren't

13:49

we? Did Bosman rule? Yes but Bosman applies

13:51

also in Latin America and it happens in

13:53

other markets so what I'm trying to say

13:55

is this is the reason why people

13:57

go to the European Court of Justice because it's the

13:59

most... important market. So in the end, FIFA

14:01

cannot have a situation where the biggest market is

14:03

regulated by certain rules and the rest by different

14:06

rules. Ultimately, they will fall in line. Can we

14:08

talk about young players and the welfare of

14:10

young players and how they are

14:13

potentially being used within the

14:15

system here as

14:17

make-weights in deals, being

14:20

asked to go potentially to places they

14:22

don't want to go. You've got a

14:24

Newcastle midfielder, Jan Kuberminte is refusing to

14:26

move to Lyon. How much can

14:28

the PFA get involved and protect those

14:31

players? Unfortunately, for the players of the

14:33

academies, they are the most attractive ones

14:36

because in terms of the books, whenever

14:38

you sell an academy player, it's all profit. To

14:41

me, the concern is obviously leaving aside the

14:43

impact on the player himself and his career

14:45

because sometimes that move is not forcing the

14:47

best for his or her career. The

14:50

point is also, is he in the best interest of

14:52

the club itself. The academy players are

14:54

not just valuable assets and for

14:56

those of them who are perceiving

14:59

assets, those are very much important for

15:01

the fans. It is a connection to

15:03

the local community. It's a connection to

15:05

the values that makes football what it

15:07

is, a community asset. Every

15:10

union has a duty of care,

15:12

doesn't it, to its workers and its

15:14

members. Do you worry that

15:18

your young members, your

15:20

young players could

15:24

be used to make up,

15:27

to cover reckless spending of club

15:30

owners? You need to be worried

15:32

because a lot of time when you're young, it shouldn't

15:34

be about the money. It should be

15:36

about the sports project that

15:38

the club offers you. The reality is that

15:41

normally the best sports project is the one that the

15:43

old club offers you because they know you, because they'll

15:45

have a bit more patience with you, because normally unless

15:48

something crazy happens, the best solution is to stay at

15:50

your club and to grow at your club. And then

15:52

whenever you're ready and mature enough, then you move elsewhere.

15:54

You must worry because you must think

15:56

whether it is in the best interest of the career

15:59

of that specific player. And this is a sort

16:01

of broader subject because there are so many things that are

16:03

affecting players at the moment. And we've

16:05

talked before about number of games and

16:07

this, this show isn't this specific pod

16:09

isn't about that issue, but I am

16:11

aware, I think we're becoming more and

16:13

more aware of there are so many

16:15

different things that are really affecting players

16:17

at the moment that don't seem to

16:19

necessarily be right. And, and we

16:22

could throw this conversation into that. Whenever

16:25

strike action gets mentioned, is that

16:27

a genuine viable proposition for football

16:31

to settle their

16:33

disputes and grievances?

16:35

When you have an England

16:38

player that enters the

16:40

pitch on Tuesday and he has played the

16:42

126th game over

16:44

the last two years, I mean, you know, it comes

16:46

to a stage where it is, you know, and again,

16:48

money does not solve that situation. It's not the question

16:51

of, of, of having money is, you know, they feel

16:53

very privileged. It's an honor to play for

16:55

your country in honor to play football and to

16:57

make your hobby passion into a job, but

17:00

you cannot play 126 games in two years and be expected

17:05

to perform. It's, it is

17:08

just not humanly possible. So, and

17:10

what really annoys me is that then we're very quick to,

17:12

to, to judge those guys and I think that, you know,

17:14

you need to put yourself into their, their shoes, you need

17:16

to understand what they're going through and you need to understand

17:18

that and for these not a question of turning up at

17:20

the game. It's a question of delivering

17:22

a 90 minute performance at

17:25

the highest standards with, with, you know, with a

17:27

shirt that weights a lot and, and it's, it's

17:30

extremely tough and I'm full of admiration for them, but

17:32

it comes to a stage where I understand when they

17:34

say to me enough is enough and maybe we need

17:36

to strike because, because we left with

17:38

no other option. And, and the

17:40

first step for us was to take a legal

17:42

action because, because there was no, there was no

17:44

other choice and you'd be amazed by the number

17:46

of messages we received, not just by players, executives

17:49

from clubs, you know, managers,

17:52

because it, you know, it takes a toll

17:54

on everyone. The sports agents. And

17:56

so that's it. They have it scroll back through the

17:59

sports agents feeds. up with all of

18:01

our episodes in full, Global Player or wherever

18:03

you get your podcasts. We always

18:05

love to hear from you. We'll do a Q&A show

18:07

shortly, I'm sure. We need your questions. We'll work them

18:09

into the shows. Sportsagents.global.com.

18:11

New episodes every Tuesday

18:13

and Thursday. Enjoy the

18:16

weekend. The Sports Agents with Gabby

18:18

Logan and Mark Chapman.