0:02

This is a Global Player Original Podcast.

0:04

Rory's one of the best to ever

0:06

play. And

0:09

being able to fight against a great

0:11

like that is pretty special. For

0:14

him to miss that putt, I never wished on anybody. He'll

0:18

win multiple more major championships, there's no doubt.

0:21

I think that fire in him is going to continue to

0:23

grow. And I have nothing but respect

0:25

for how he plays the game of golf

0:28

because to be honest when he

0:32

was climbing up the leaderboard and he was

0:34

too ahead, I was like, uh-oh, uh-oh. But

0:39

luckily things went my way today.

0:42

Well, that was very classy from the

0:44

new US Open champion Bryson de Chambault.

0:46

Although sadly Rory McElroy wasn't there to

0:49

hear it. Already airborne and headed for

0:51

home even before Bryson's

0:53

news conference had finished. And

0:55

it was 24 hours before Rory broke

0:58

his silence and sensationally announced he'd

1:00

be taking a break from golf.

1:02

So we'll talk about how athletes cope

1:04

with failure and if something radical needs

1:07

to change for Rory 10 years

1:09

on from his last major win.

1:12

But that's not all because the Euros are upon

1:14

us, you might have noticed, and we are in

1:16

Berlin. Do we sound different? We're soaking

1:18

up the atmosphere. Well, not a lot of atmosphere,

1:20

particularly around here at the moment. We'll get onto that

1:22

and we'll also get into your questions. Real

1:25

common? To

1:27

the sports agents. The

1:38

sports agents with Gabby Logan and

1:40

Mark Chapman. Hi

1:44

Gabby. Hi Mark, how are you? I'm very good,

1:46

thank you. You've only just arrived in the new.

1:48

Yeah, late last night. Here in Berlin. I'm

1:51

very excited to be here. I walked into breakfast

1:53

this morning. All the team were there. The BBC

1:55

pundits you walked in and I got that sense.

1:57

Alan Shearer actually said to me, how long have

1:59

you been here? been here and I said about

2:01

12 hours he said I can tell you're still

2:03

enthusiastic he had a he had a night train

2:08

that's why he's a few times I

2:10

don't know if he's revealed this but

2:12

yeah he had an overnight the overnight

2:14

sleeper to where England's

2:16

first game was which was Nelson Kirk

2:18

and which is kind of in the

2:20

north west industrial town yeah yeah and

2:22

we're in the north well sort of

2:24

east at the moment aren't we we're

2:27

in Berlin I started off in Munich

2:29

said did the Scotland game on

2:31

the opening on the opening night

2:34

so there is a there is a lot of traveling

2:36

going on which is a little it's not

2:38

a shock to the system look we're very privileged to do this

2:40

and it is an absolute joy to

2:42

do these tournaments but Qatar was

2:44

a city was a city World Cup all

2:47

eight stadia were within sort of 20 miles

2:49

of each other which was a very different

2:51

World Cup to now this one which is

2:53

it's a big old big old

2:56

schlep this is what it's supposed to be like

2:58

and we kind of got out of the habit

3:00

of that because obviously the last euros was COVID

3:02

affected and we we were studio based for most

3:04

of it and and actually if you look forwards

3:06

like to the next World Cup which is going

3:08

to involve an awful lot of travel across three

3:11

countries isn't it so that'll be a I think

3:13

that's gonna be a very different without sort of

3:15

going into the ins and outs of the broadcasting

3:17

industry but that'll be a very different World Cup

3:19

because I can't believe in two years time that

3:21

the broadcasters will be doing the same amount of

3:23

traveling as yeah in terms of sustainability it doesn't

3:25

really work does it in terms

3:27

of the there's been a lot talked about with

3:29

regard to transport a lot of images

3:31

of people queuing at train stations for hours

3:34

after the England game in particular you've been

3:36

using public transport here yes I have as

3:38

a man of the people I've been on

3:40

the bar haven't been shown for them I

3:42

was a sounding surprise there yeah

3:44

I mean and I was here in 2006 as

3:46

well for the

3:48

World Cup that they had here which felt

3:51

like a very smooth running tournament this has

3:54

had its issues transport wise

3:56

already and I'm not

3:58

it's not just on from From my perspective,

4:01

most people are delayed on the trains and

4:03

big delays, like an hour, two hours. I

4:06

know fans have found it difficult getting

4:08

trains away from games. England did. I

4:10

had a Scotland fan on one of the trains I was

4:13

on talking about, him and his son, and they'd

4:15

had issues on the public transport and it

4:17

felt like the fans

4:19

were being funneled into a very small area

4:21

off public transport and his son had close

4:25

to a panic attack because it was quite scary.

4:28

A lot of tournaments have teething troubles.

4:31

The other interesting thing here is that this is an

4:33

established country that is

4:35

okay for tourism already and

4:38

it's not trying to sell

4:40

itself. It's not showing off.

4:42

It's not showing off. This is,

4:44

we're here and this is just how they... A

4:46

bit, kind of a bit like we

4:48

would be hosting. In terms of throwing cash at things,

4:50

if you think about Qatar, if you think about Russia,

4:52

there were reasons why they would throw a lot of

4:54

cash at that to make sure it all ran smoothly.

4:57

We're in very different socioeconomic times, but also

4:59

a country that, as you say, isn't doing

5:01

that whole fanfare of saying, hey, look at

5:03

us, we're amazing, we've come a long way.

5:05

They're just going, come if you like, and

5:08

if you don't want to, find. Do

5:11

you know what? That is a big positive. It's

5:14

not, this isn't negative by any means. It's

5:17

just, it is. And actually, we had a

5:19

question about this from Jamie77 on Instagram. He

5:22

says, it feels like a bit of a slow

5:24

burn in terms of the country getting into the

5:26

tournament. And I don't know whether he's

5:28

talking about back in the UK, whether he's talking about

5:31

here, but this does feel like very much a slow

5:33

burn as far as Germany are concerned. What

5:35

is brilliant here and already noticeable

5:38

is all the other fan bases that

5:40

are here. And we haven't had

5:42

that again from whether it's a COVID tournament

5:44

or Qatar or whatever. This

5:47

has been absolutely immense. Of

5:49

obviously the Dutch fans. Scotland.

6:00

Scotland fans. The Swiss fans. No, not

6:02

the Swiss fans. The Austrian fans. Yeah,

6:04

the Austrian. Sorry, Switzerland. Of

6:07

course it wasn't the Swiss fans. Here's a

6:09

UN spokeswoman, Willis. The Austrian fans doing a

6:11

very similar kind of march to the stadium.

6:21

The World Cup in 2019, the Women's World

6:23

Cup in France, the Netherlands fans did the

6:25

same thing there. And it was spectacular. The

6:28

way that, because it worked for them in the kinds of towns

6:30

that the World Cup was in. I

6:32

love those scenes and yet the England fans

6:34

don't seem to do that, do they? Well,

6:36

no. No, I don't. Why?

6:39

Well, speaking as a mid-lays

6:42

Englishman, I think that whole coordination of how

6:44

you move through things is just beyond a

6:46

lot of us. How do you even get

6:48

the messages through? Is it a WhatsApp group?

6:50

Well, we just go to the left and

6:52

then you want to, hang on, and then

6:54

I pause and I mean, we've

6:56

done strictly. I would never even pull this

6:59

up. But you know, all of those instructions

7:01

I could never ever begin to process. I

7:03

mean, you mentioned some of the fan groups

7:05

that, like Romania, we're recording this on Tuesday,

7:07

Romania yesterday. The

7:09

sort of feeling between the players and the

7:11

fans at the end there, they haven't won

7:14

a game at the Euro since 2000, so

7:16

24 years. And

7:18

the bond, they were so impressive yesterday

7:20

and the bond between them, one

7:23

of the fans handed a megaphone

7:25

over to one of the players. How do

7:27

you get that in? How

7:46

do you get that in? I mean, my God. You

7:48

can't even get a banana in. You can't. You can't

7:50

take fruit off you go through the scanners in case

7:52

you use it as a weapon. And

7:54

yet one of the remainders has got in with a megaphone.

7:56

But maybe you said it was a large inhaler or something.

8:00

I have, but that, but you know, even

8:02

noticing between Scotland and their fans at the

8:04

end, they were on the pitch for a

8:06

long time. Apologising. Apologising. Even

8:08

though they'd been pumped and there was that,

8:10

there was still that sort of appreciation. So

8:12

that has been, that has been the biggest

8:14

positive for me so far. And I also

8:17

think the other positive, the

8:19

football's been really good. The France game against

8:21

Austria, I don't think anybody felt was going to be quite,

8:23

I mean, we know Austria have got this high press and

8:25

they're very dynamic and they're, you know,

8:27

they're set up obviously to just keep going, aren't

8:29

they? They've got so much. Ralph Raimick has transformed

8:31

them. Yeah. But that game, you know, was,

8:34

was not from a France point of view,

8:36

maybe, you know, but it was a really great watch.

8:38

Absolutely. And I think most teams, you

8:40

know, Italy just got past Albania. We

8:42

had England and Serbia. There's only,

8:44

well, I know no, Germany, there's only Germany

8:46

and Spain who have probably gone, wow, okay.

8:49

Their, their statement results, statement

8:51

performances, but everything else seems

8:53

really, really close. Which

8:56

just makes for a good open tournament, doesn't it? And that

8:58

was kind of, I was getting the assessment of the

9:00

BBC pundits downstairs and that seemed to be, you just

9:02

summed it up nicely. Oh right, okay. Yeah.

9:05

The whole tournament. So yeah. And

9:07

I wasn't sat with them. I was sat on my own

9:09

away from them just for a bit of peace and quiet.

9:11

I mean, that's the other thing that happens after five days

9:13

in the same place with people is like, you move away.

9:16

I can't sit at breakfast with you again. The one tactical

9:18

football conundrum which came up, which has been well

9:20

versed over the last couple of days was

9:22

the Phil Foden issue, which Alan

9:24

Shearer has kind of solved in his head.

9:26

Did he use salt and pepper pots around the

9:29

breakfast table? Pretty much. It

9:32

just involves Bellingham dropping a bit deeper, sitting back

9:34

with rice and we're fine. Do you Bellingham and

9:36

Decker rice with the little, little things of tomato

9:38

sauce that he was going to have with his

9:40

sausages? Yeah, Foden's moving obviously into the tent, moving

9:42

off the left and it's, it's all going to

9:44

be fine. And luckily there wasn't just salt

9:46

and pepper. There was some paprika and some other things on

9:48

the table. Wow. That's a great

9:51

hotel. So there's plenty of condiments to deal with.

9:54

So we started off air chatting about sweet trolleys

9:57

and now we've got into paprika. So I

9:59

think I think it might be time to move on.

10:02

In a moment, we'll be joined by the former

10:04

World of the Bessou at Golf Hall of Famer

10:06

Colin Montgomery, who knows what it feels like to

10:08

come so close to winning a major. The sports

10:10

agents. The

10:14

sports agents. With Gabby Logan and

10:16

Mark Chapman. Oh, my

10:23

goodness. He

10:25

knew it. He knew it. We'll

10:30

have to lie price and let him off the

10:32

hook. Otherwise, that's going to haunt Rory for the

10:34

rest of his life. OK, well,

10:36

I think we have the perfect

10:39

guest today. Colin Montgomery finished second

10:41

in five majors in his otherwise

10:43

brilliant career, and I'm

10:45

sure felt for

10:47

Rory McElroy on Sunday nights.

10:50

Colin, thank you very much for joining us.

10:52

It was just watching it

10:54

as a viewer and as not being

10:56

a professional golfer, it

10:58

was heartbreaking. Did you

11:00

feel the same as somebody who applies

11:03

the same trade as Rory? I did indeed. I

11:05

had my head in my hands on the 18th.

11:09

16 started it off. But 18, 18,

11:12

I had my head in my hands. It was

11:14

a Doug Sanders moment, wasn't it, really? Way

11:16

back when, I'm older than you guys. So

11:18

I remember Doug Sanders in 1970 missing that

11:21

putt at St. Andrews, and it was a

11:23

really did feel for him because I know

11:26

him well. I'd class him as a friend. And I

11:29

really, really felt for him. This was 10 years of

11:32

hurt, 10 years of

11:34

scar tissue, all feeding out

11:36

at the wrong time. It

11:38

was incredible to see, actually. It was

11:40

amazing to witness sport at

11:43

its very best if you were a neutral.

11:45

Nobody can be in any doubt

11:47

that, of course, nine times out of 10, 99

11:50

times out of 100, he would

11:52

make that putt, you know? And he's

11:55

given so much of himself in the

11:57

team situation for the Ryder Cup. You've seen him put

11:59

himself under enormous... pressure. So

12:01

can you help us go inside his

12:03

head at that moment? Well I mean

12:07

to be brutally frank before

12:09

we go on to other other you know

12:12

outside influences you know

12:14

he threw it away okay let's let's

12:16

be brutally frank here he he

12:18

threw that away Bryson didn't actually

12:20

win that tournament he shot one

12:23

over for the day Bryson being being all over

12:25

the place he didn't really play

12:27

very well Bryson he chipped and potted

12:29

well but he didn't play golf well

12:32

so to be brutally frank unfortunately Rory threw

12:35

it away he bogied three out the last

12:37

four holes you know I

12:39

was thinking about myself obviously and I've been in

12:41

that position myself where I threw one away

12:43

particularly winged foot in 2006 where

12:46

I double bogied the last

12:48

hole and I threw

12:50

away the US Open it's an awful

12:52

awful feeling not just for you've let

12:54

yourself down in a way you know

12:56

you've let the sort of you

12:59

feel for the family down you feel for your

13:01

friends and and all the support

13:03

that's that's been given to you for those

13:05

days or those years leading up to that and

13:08

uh you feel very very low

13:10

you just want the earth to

13:12

swallow you up almost you know it's it's

13:14

a terrible terrible feeling of

13:17

of uh of loss it

13:19

goes back to almost a month ago

13:21

where we lost one of our top 50 players

13:24

in the world Grayson Murray uh

13:26

through mental health depression

13:29

and sports we're all involved in

13:31

it in in in our ways

13:33

and it is difficult

13:35

especially when expectation is so high and

13:38

expectation is is the

13:41

killer in most ways that that's that's

13:43

you know my my

13:45

biggest um uh wins of my career

13:47

were the ones that I felt that

13:49

I was expected to win expect

13:52

to win is a very very

13:54

difficult ask in the world of sport

13:57

I get the sense Colin that

13:59

you understandably

14:02

still carry that US

14:05

open heavily on you

14:07

just by just by the way you're talking

14:10

despite all the success that you've had and

14:12

the Ryder Cup and so on and so

14:14

forth that that

14:17

that hangs heavy over you oh

14:19

it does it does yeah and

14:21

you're talking what 18 years ago

14:23

yeah I made a made a terrible mistake

14:26

as as Rory made

14:28

so-called three mistakes coming in

14:31

and I never my career was towards the end

14:33

I was I was what

14:36

40 43 it was more difficult

14:38

August because I knew there wasn't there

14:40

wasn't many more opportunities you know this

14:43

was it Rory

14:46

I think his statement that he's

14:48

put out there I think is very well

14:50

worded indeed and very well put

14:52

together and he has golden

14:54

opportunities ahead of him I

14:57

didn't yeah you talked about Colin Montgomery

15:00

and you talk about but oh well he never won

15:02

a major whatever I'd love that

15:04

sentence to change or that statement to

15:07

change and and of course I can't

15:09

because because I I messed up and

15:11

and it happens sport my god I

15:13

mean if it all went to plan

15:16

every favorite would win every week it would

15:18

be a bit rather boring you know to

15:20

watch so so I'm glad that these things

15:22

do happen in many ways it keeps us

15:24

interested and keeps us watching but at the

15:26

same time when it happens to yourself it's

15:29

it's a very different different

15:32

feeling only you guys at

15:34

the very top of this very very tough

15:37

sport can really know what that feels like

15:39

to put yourselves on the line every single

15:41

week and of course not everybody

15:43

can win in golf you know there's a

15:45

lot of players in the field but exactly

15:48

I think the the outpouring that there will

15:50

come and there has already been from fellow

15:52

professional Shane Lowry who's a great friend of

15:54

course expressing on social media his support

15:57

and understanding of what Rory has gone

15:59

through and also expressing just how tough

16:01

this game is. Andrew B.F. Johnson's just

16:03

got a book out called Golf is

16:05

Hard and it's about the mental struggles

16:07

of golf. And I

16:09

think for a lot of people, they see

16:11

the big money, they see the controversy with

16:13

Liv and the huge money there and all

16:16

of that and sometimes the distractions away from

16:18

the golf course and forget about

16:20

just how tough psychologically this

16:22

sport is, perhaps the toughest.

16:24

I think perhaps mentally, I

16:26

think you're right, I think

16:28

mentally it's the toughest. Most

16:31

ball sports are reactive sports. You react

16:33

to a situation, a football comes towards

16:35

you, you head it, you kick it,

16:38

you know, and then you're given

16:40

a sort of free pass because the ball

16:42

could be spinning, it could have come off his

16:44

knee or whatever, oh dear, okay fine, it came

16:46

to you a bit quickly, whatever. Rugby the same,

16:50

cricket, golf the ball is stationary

16:52

and it's your job, it's

16:54

your job to make it move. The

16:57

time between shots, the thinking time,

17:00

say you've got 10 thoughts swing in your head,

17:03

can you keep those 10 thoughts

17:05

all positive? Can you possibly keep

17:07

them all positive at all times?

17:10

Almost impossible to do so, there's got to be

17:12

nine say positive thoughts and there's one little

17:15

negative, little devil in there

17:18

that's that self-doubt. It's

17:20

the time between the shots that's the difficulty.

17:22

I mean Rory chipped up there at the

17:25

last, he knew he'd left it above

17:27

the hole, we all thought it was

17:29

a great chip, it was a good chip but it

17:31

was above the hole, it was left to right, it

17:34

was best part of four foot, it wasn't

17:36

three, it was almost four foot and

17:39

it was a big big swing of left to

17:41

right and you see where he was aiming, his

17:43

putter was aiming left of the hole and I

17:45

think the ball just broke and O'Faldo in his

17:47

commentary was very good, he said he didn't look

17:49

as if he was going to hole it, there

17:51

wasn't that much confidence there but at the same

17:53

time the ball broke more than he

17:56

thought, that's golf and you know

17:58

to keep those negative thoughts and I

18:00

know you're speaking to a sports

18:02

psychologist afterwards and he will probably say

18:04

the same thing it's to keep those

18:07

negative thoughts at a minimum or

18:10

take them out completely and it's damn near

18:13

impossible in a game that takes so long.

18:15

Colin you also alluded to off

18:18

the pitch, off the course things

18:21

that have been going on in Rory's life and at

18:23

the beginning of the week you know very public

18:25

announcement about him repairing his marriage enough

18:27

that he wants to be back in

18:29

the family and having you know just

18:31

a few weeks ago announced that he

18:33

was getting divorced and that

18:35

kind of noise which you know obviously

18:37

is a distraction in terms of you

18:39

know what you talk about when you're

18:41

actually at the competition but also

18:43

in your head what's going on

18:46

you can't discount can you that you'd have

18:48

to be you know completely

18:51

without heart and soul to not

18:53

think about family relationships all the

18:55

things that make us human. Yeah

18:57

I mean it's bad enough I mean I

18:59

mean I was going through a divorce and

19:02

it's and it's damn near impossible to to

19:04

concentrate on one particular item which is trying

19:06

to get around a golf course of extreme

19:08

difficulty remember this this isn't

19:10

a course where birdies are galore

19:12

this is a course which is demanding and

19:15

an emotional roller coaster going up and down

19:17

it's it's it's an

19:19

incredible golf course to play

19:21

in so tough to mentally get

19:23

through I mean yes he was

19:25

divorced one week and then the trying to trying to

19:27

patch it up the next week very publicly very

19:30

publicly the ten years of

19:32

hurt and the scarring that's been going on

19:35

in Rory's life for the last ten years

19:37

to try and win a major there's a

19:39

huge distraction coming up and this was his

19:41

with two ahead with five to go this

19:43

was his best opportunity within that ten years

19:46

to win this and I felt it all came

19:48

out not just on 18 but on 16 when the that

19:51

was a very short putt that was two and a half feet and

19:54

there was a stat came up it hold

19:56

490 odd in a row this

19:58

season he hadn't missed under three

20:00

foot this season. And then of

20:02

course the two and a half foot of misses, you've

20:05

got to put that down. You have to put

20:07

that down. That's not coincidence. You

20:09

have to put that down to what's

20:12

happening in his head. You have to

20:14

put that, that's not technical. That's completely

20:16

a mental break

20:18

from believing the ball is going to go

20:20

in to all the things we're

20:22

taught, to having the confidence and believe the ball's

20:24

going in, to light hands on

20:27

the putter, to stroke it through. That must

20:29

have all gone and not been critical. That

20:31

happens within the game. I find,

20:33

and we were together at the Open last

20:35

year, I find that

20:37

he carries so much of

20:40

his sport on his back. You

20:42

know, for two years he was

20:44

the sports spokesman. They used

20:46

him as the spokesman against Liv. And then they kind

20:48

of threw him under the bus by then saying, well,

20:50

we are now working with Liv. And it's like, my

20:53

God, how can you do that to him? Every

20:56

tournament he goes into, and maybe this

20:58

is just us from a sort of

21:01

British perspective, but he carries, there's so

21:03

much tension. If he's at the Masters,

21:05

is he going to do

21:07

the Grand Slam? If he's at the

21:09

Open, can he come

21:11

back from Cam Smith overtaking him at St.

21:13

Andrews? If he's at any other major, can

21:15

he get his fifth Open because it's been

21:18

10 years? You know, I kind

21:21

of feel that somebody should just know, do

21:23

you know what, Rory? You've got so much

21:25

love for you out there amongst cole fans.

21:27

That's all you need to know. And

21:31

yet the weight of the world is more

21:33

often than not on him. And that's partly

21:35

us asking him all of those questions, but

21:38

everything feels so complicated for

21:40

him. And it

21:43

would be nice, I'm sure he must think sometimes

21:45

it'd be lovely to go back to the simpler

21:47

life he had in his 20s. Sure,

21:51

definitely. You know, when he first came

21:53

out and innocent Rory McIlroy,

21:55

I know. I mean, as you rightly said,

21:57

he's been the leader of the Ryder Cup.

21:59

leader of the tour. He's been leader of

22:02

the PGA tour, never mind the DP World Tour

22:04

for the last two years, as you rightly say. He's

22:06

been used as a spokesman and then

22:08

with all respect, Jay Moynihan really threw him under the

22:11

bus and saying, well no, we're joining up now, you've

22:13

got to change your track and you've got

22:15

to support these live players now, we want them back again.

22:18

And that's what he had in his statement and

22:20

you can see his statement saying

22:22

that congratulating Bryson de Chambault and great

22:24

for live golf and great for golf

22:27

in general. Well there's a change

22:29

of heart completely, so he's been manipulated

22:32

into saying things that possibly he

22:35

didn't want to be saying. Him and Tiger

22:37

were the spokespeople for the tour but of

22:39

course Rory playing a lot more than Tiger

22:41

and it does take its toll. No

22:44

great surprise then really with that

22:46

as a backdrop that he announces

22:48

that he's going to take some time away

22:51

from golf. How long that will be? Well

22:53

I think he has said that he wants

22:55

to come back and defend his Scottish Open

22:57

title and then go to Trune for the

22:59

Open. So in many ways that statement is,

23:02

he could have easily just said I'm gonna have

23:04

a good holiday, I'm gonna have a good holiday

23:07

and he's then gonna come back Scottish Open and

23:09

defend his title, he's gonna be cheered to the

23:11

rafters, he's gonna go to Trune, he'll have the

23:13

biggest galleries at Trune, he'll have the crowd behind

23:15

him, it might do in the

23:17

world of good. However you see it playing in

23:20

the US isn't easy, especially

23:22

you know when Bryson is

23:25

a crowd favorite as well. I

23:27

know Rory's favored over there too but in America

23:30

it's not easy and to

23:32

have that USA chanting in your ear

23:34

for five hours isn't much fun to

23:36

be honest and

23:39

it does wear thin towards the end of the

23:41

day. But at the same time it'll do him,

23:43

as you so rightly say, it'll do him the

23:45

world of good mentally to have that feeling of

23:47

love. And when

23:50

you think about how close he has

23:52

been, you know he was close again last

23:54

year as well, it's almost

23:56

ridiculous isn't it that we're talking like this

23:58

because you know the the

24:00

numbers and the talent that is out there in

24:02

golf, that you think, actually, if I said to

24:05

you, Mark, you'll go

24:07

10 years without winning a major, you'd be

24:09

like, great, brilliant, amazing. The

24:13

expectation we put on our heroes, our

24:15

sporting heroes, and I think actually everything

24:17

you've said there about going back to

24:19

Scotland, playing in Trune, is the

24:21

joy, the simple joy, the love of the kid

24:23

from Hollywood, Northern Ireland, who grew

24:26

up just loving hitting a golf ball, and

24:28

that's what he needs to find. I think

24:30

you're dead right on all counts there, Gabby,

24:32

that it is, it's the love. Take a

24:35

couple of weeks, it'll be three weeks off,

24:37

or whatever it is, come

24:39

back to Scotland, where he's

24:41

defending champion, he's loved in Scotland because

24:44

of his Ryder Cup heroics, and

24:47

the Irish and the Scottish are very

24:49

close anyway, the Celtic nations, and he'll

24:51

be supported to the rafters, and I

24:53

think doing the world a good, it really will. Just

24:56

a final one, then, Colin, because it

24:58

is odd, isn't it, in an individual

25:01

sport that we root for

25:03

you so much. So you

25:05

know, over the years, even though I

25:09

hadn't met you at the time, I know you now, but I

25:11

haven't met you at the time, I'm

25:13

still rooting for you to win a major,

25:16

even though it makes absolutely

25:18

no, it makes no difference

25:21

with all due respect to

25:23

my life whatsoever, really. But

25:25

I am rooting for you, and

25:28

therefore, if you are in that

25:30

Rory or your position, and you

25:32

are close to winning a major and closing out

25:34

a major, you have all this expectation

25:36

on you, even though you're

25:38

just an individual sportsman.

25:40

It's not like your Leeds United,

25:43

or Gabby's Newcastle, or my Manchester

25:45

United, where you're working for my city, or

25:47

your city, or your collective. You're just an

25:49

individual playing sport, and yet you have all

25:51

these people who are invested in

25:53

you. Yes, yes.

25:55

And you feel it, presumably. Oh God,

25:57

you feel it. Oh God, you do.

26:00

When I led at LITHM in

26:02

2001 there, after the

26:05

first day, it was three ahead after the first day, my

26:07

God, I felt that support, right, come on. You're

26:09

dead right. I mean, they didn't know me at

26:12

all. And it wouldn't have changed their lives. And

26:16

it wouldn't have changed any of our lives if Rory had one. I

26:18

think we align our values almost, don't we?

26:21

There's something where we kind of subliminally maybe

26:23

think that's, he's the kind of person

26:25

that I think I'd like to be in that situation. Or

26:27

the way he's conducted himself. And

26:29

I think that's where individual sports people do garner a fan

26:31

base. Because, you know, we feel

26:33

like, oh, I could be his mate. I

26:37

could see myself having a cup of tea or

26:39

a beer with him. He's a lovely fellow and

26:41

hasn't changed at all. Hasn't changed at all. You

26:45

know, very rare. Do you see

26:47

people, you know, with hate to use the word money, but

26:51

change because of the word money and

26:53

because of lifestyle changes and everything? He

26:55

hasn't. He's still the same lad from

26:57

Hollywood as you so rightly say. And

26:59

again, Gabby, you're right regarding, you know, coming

27:02

into a tournament, you

27:04

know, one of the favorites, obviously, to finish second out

27:06

of 156 competitors. In

27:09

any business, if you were ranked, you know,

27:11

you have an exam, and amongst you, 156

27:13

of you are all examined at the same

27:15

time in a business. And

27:18

you finish second out of 156. What,

27:22

how many years in a row? That's

27:24

bloody good. That'd be brilliant for you. That is really

27:26

good. I mean, come on. And

27:29

yet we see it as a failure and it's

27:31

wrong. And I must admit, the press gave him

27:33

a bad time leaving the club

27:35

afterwards. He walked out in

27:37

a slow, dignified manner. I

27:39

felt, yes, he didn't shake Bryson's hand, but neither

27:42

did another 70 odd competitors that had made the

27:44

cut. Let him rest for three weeks and let

27:46

him come back and get some love in Scotland.

27:48

And that'll do him, as we all say, the

27:50

world of good. We will let you go. I

27:52

know you're looking forward to watching the Scotland game

27:54

that Gabby's presenting on. I know you're pumped for

27:56

that. full

28:00

of confidence you're fully invested in that, aren't

28:02

you? Yeah, unfortunately, the Swiss are quite good.

28:05

We haven't really given them much, much credit. They

28:07

are quite good, the Swiss. And

28:09

I don't give as much hope at all. But

28:11

what the hell we got there. Come on. And

28:13

the support, the support, I think almost

28:15

four or five, four or five percent of the

28:18

population turned out to Munich, you know, I mean,

28:20

it was ridiculous. It

28:22

felt it felt more having been in Munich, Colin, it

28:24

felt more like that. I think I was the only

28:26

person not in a kilt in Munich on Friday night.

28:28

We can change that. Don't worry. The

28:31

sports agents. The

28:36

sports agents with Gabby Logan and

28:38

Mark Chapman. OK,

28:42

let's delve a little bit deeper

28:44

into the psychology of golf, into performance,

28:47

into into sports psychology generally with John

28:49

Adler, who is a performance coach,

28:52

performance specialist. But you do have a

28:54

lot of experience with golfers and working

28:56

in this area that Colin Montgomery just

28:58

so beautifully articulated as a ball sport

29:01

that doesn't come at you. You go,

29:03

you address the ball and it is

29:05

all down to you. And that moment,

29:07

nothing to react to. I've

29:10

never thought of it like that before, John. There's

29:12

a lot of time for the mind to get

29:14

active, hopefully with a lot of

29:16

training and Rory was excellent at it for

29:18

four days. You can give your mind something

29:20

to do that's related to the task. I

29:22

think Colin Montgomery years ago, I heard him

29:24

saying that he used to do his times

29:26

table and do counting when he

29:28

was on the green. Just to give his mind something

29:31

to do. I think something more

29:33

related to the task would be useful so

29:36

that you can let your body get on and do

29:39

the job and trust your body. The

29:41

trouble is when it gets when you get anxious

29:44

and fear comes tapping on your shoulder,

29:46

it's quite easy to then start doubting

29:48

yourself and trying a bit harder and

29:51

trying to instruct your body what to do, telling

29:53

your body what to do, which is

29:55

in any sport, really

29:57

the recipe for failure, unfortunately.

30:00

You know that sometimes 200-yard

30:02

walk, 150-yard walk, you know. Other sports, it's

30:04

coming at you so quickly you don't have

30:07

time. So I think what we want to

30:09

kind of try and find out is how

30:11

you can train somebody to

30:13

think more positively. How can you

30:16

eliminate those noises? You

30:19

can't stop the thoughts coming.

30:21

It's your reaction to the thoughts. That's the

30:23

only thing that we can control. So the

30:25

thoughts, look, Rory would have 100% had the

30:27

thought, I can't miss this. You

30:30

better not miss this, that little voice in your

30:32

head. That's not the

30:34

problem. When you think you shouldn't be having

30:36

that thought, now I'm anxious, that

30:39

I'm anxious. I've got double the anxiety.

30:42

So it's about accepting I'm going to be

30:44

anxious, accepting the thoughts as they come in.

30:47

But then you deciding, actually, I'm not going

30:50

to react to my worrying mind. I'm

30:52

going to do something that I've practiced

30:54

over and over. And then

30:56

you put your mind in your body somewhere,

30:58

really, ideally. So you're not thinking about what you

31:00

want to be doing. You're just in your

31:02

body, observing your body, doing it. Do

31:04

your best to try and keep out

31:06

of the way. Does that make sense?

31:08

Yeah. As you mentioned, for most of

31:10

that four days, Rory

31:13

played brilliantly. Yeah. And

31:15

actually, John, for that

31:17

final round, up

31:19

until hole 14, something

31:21

like that, 14, 15, he was killing

31:23

it. He'd reeled Bryson in. Bryson had

31:26

a three-shot lead at the start of

31:28

the day. He'd reeled Bryson in, and

31:31

it was literally the last four

31:33

holes. Yeah. In a

31:36

very basic term, would you

31:38

advise someone not to look at the scoreboard

31:40

if they're in the running for a title?

31:43

I think it's hard not to really. In

31:45

some ways, you need to know what you need to

31:47

do. You can look at the scoreboard. I

31:50

think you've just got to take it in your stride

31:52

and remember that you're in control of only what you

31:54

can do. They were both making mistakes

31:56

coming down. A hair's width, and

31:58

we'd have been talking about it. how resilient Rory

32:00

was because that putt only just

32:02

missed on the right. It could have easily toppled in.

32:05

Margins between success and failure, especially

32:07

in golf, are so

32:10

small. The closer you get to

32:12

the hole, the harder it is.

32:15

If that was a six-foot putt, I think you would

32:17

probably have felt a bit better about it in

32:20

some respects because it's okay

32:22

to miss those. When you're not supposed

32:24

to miss, that's when the

32:26

fear comes in and starts to tell

32:28

you, just think how you're going

32:31

to feel if you miss this. All these thoughts will come

32:33

in in a split second, and then

32:35

the chemicals get released and it's much

32:37

harder to keep your equanimity. I think

32:39

that's what gets lost is

32:41

your ability to keep a balanced

32:43

mind in order for you to

32:46

play the stroke and trust your

32:48

body to play the stroke. That

32:50

line about it's okay to

32:52

miss from six feet, but maybe

32:54

it isn't from four feet. That

32:57

then brings public perception into

33:00

it as well and what the public are expecting

33:02

of you or your friends and family are. Somebody

33:05

from three or four feet, the general public,

33:07

the amateur golfer, go, well, I'd have put

33:09

that in. That adds

33:11

that expectation onto the golfer.

33:14

Yeah, those are the

33:16

squeaky ones, aren't they, especially at the very

33:18

end, the closer you get to the hole.

33:21

It's so hard to let go and trust

33:23

yourself in those moments at the end. Imagine,

33:26

you would have been exhausted after four

33:28

days. The hardest golf course you could

33:30

have ever imagined, I can't imagine playing

33:32

at the score I'd have racked up,

33:34

but four days grueling and battling and

33:36

you would have had anxiety the whole

33:38

way through and you'd have

33:40

been controlling himself and managing it. Then

33:43

just at the very end, it slips

33:45

away. There's no wonder that he's taken

33:47

some time away. I think that's a

33:49

very smart thing to do just to

33:52

spend some time with his daughter. She won't

33:54

care whether he's Mr. Pup or not when

33:56

she's playing with him in the morning. It'll

33:59

be good for him, I think. to just take

34:01

a little rest and reset. But he's shown he's

34:03

really resilient, Rory, isn't he? I mean, he's done

34:06

it before and come back years ago when he

34:08

blew up in the Masters. You

34:10

know, from adversity, when you've been punched in

34:12

the nose by a bully, and fear can

34:15

feel like a bully sometimes, you

34:17

either run away from him every time

34:19

you see him, or the next time you see him,

34:21

you stand a bit taller and say, well, I'm done,

34:23

I'm not running anymore. And Rory Shoney can do that,

34:25

I think. We've got you on

34:27

Well Where in Germany for the Euros. So I

34:30

think it would be remiss not to bring this

34:32

round to the only situation

34:34

in football that is going to be anything like

34:36

this is a penalty, obviously. We're not there yet,

34:38

obviously, we've got a few more games in the

34:40

group stages, but they'll be upon us before we

34:42

know it. And again, going back to your

34:44

analogy of a two foot, a four foot or a six foot

34:46

putt, you know, well, it's not that

34:49

far out. The ball's quite close to the goal.

34:51

You know, people give great credit for 30 yard

34:53

blooters that are kind of like, you know, swung

34:55

in. But actually, that situation

34:57

and that mind kind of

34:59

body synergy that a

35:01

football has got to have, walking towards

35:03

the ball, having that you can practice,

35:06

obviously, in training. But can you ever

35:08

really replicate that moment, that

35:10

tension that you are going to undoubtedly be

35:12

feeling? No, I don't think so. I mean,

35:15

Rory could never have replicated that putt, you

35:18

know, on a Sunday at the US Open.

35:20

And I don't think you can replicate it,

35:22

do it in training, you can practice and

35:25

get your routine. But don't forget the opposition are

35:27

doing everything they can desperately trying to put you

35:29

out of your routine. The goalkeeper will be coming

35:31

out and moving the ball or chatting to you.

35:33

Other players will be coming up. So I

35:36

think it's about knowing what you want to do,

35:38

but being flexible in your

35:40

thinking and your process. If you stick

35:42

rigidly to something you've done in the

35:44

past, then you're not maybe

35:47

you're thinking too much. You've got to stay in

35:49

your body. I keep going back to that. When

35:51

we're in our heads, thinking and instructing our bodies

35:53

what to do. There's trouble. If

35:56

you can be present in your body somehow, just

35:58

connect to your body something. simple, like through your

36:00

breath or just observing it. You haven't got to

36:02

do anything special, but just feeling your feet on

36:04

the ground. A lot of players

36:07

who stand there too long, you can

36:09

almost watch them start to freeze a little bit.

36:11

And I guess we all do it. We all think, I think

36:14

he's going to miss this one. Or he looks good. And

36:17

I think the players who can keep in their

36:19

own little bubble, and that would be in your

36:22

body as opposed to overthinking things, perform

36:25

the best. But I

36:27

wouldn't like to be in that position, that's for sure.

36:29

How long does it take you to

36:32

learn not to overthink? Well,

36:34

now, so I go away on silent

36:36

retreats for 10 days, silent meditation from

36:38

time to time in Hereford, wonderful Hereford.

36:42

And I sit there for 10 hours a day to stop

36:45

thinking is virtually impossible. But the more you bring it

36:47

back, just simply bring it back to something simple, then

36:49

the more you get used to it. It's like a

36:51

muscle, it's like a rep at the gym. When

36:54

you decide that you're going to focus on, say,

36:56

your breath and your mind wanders, once you know

36:58

it wanders and you bring it back, that's like

37:00

a repetition at the gym. And

37:03

that can be really useful in these

37:05

high-pressure situations. And I

37:07

think Rory was doing mindfulness meditation

37:09

sometime, Tommy Fleetwood did. I would

37:11

imagine a lot of the

37:13

top athletes have approached this

37:16

in some way because you can't stop thinking,

37:18

Chep, as you know that. Well,

37:20

I've hooked up, well, I do. But

37:23

also, but on that, I'm thinking 10 days

37:25

silent. But immediately, I started to think.

37:28

Do you remember Michael Jamieson, the swimmer?

37:30

He got a silver in London, Scottish

37:32

guy, amazing. He actually did the

37:34

reason why I kind of got kind of a bit closer to

37:36

him. He did superstars. We did a special superstars afterwards. He did

37:38

very well in that. And he then talked

37:40

about mental health issues that he had in swimming. And

37:42

he went and did a month in South America on

37:45

a silent retreat. I

37:48

know. This is not great audio

37:50

for a podcast, but everybody's mouths in the room have just

37:52

dropped open at the idea of a month. Is that a

37:54

whole month of not talking? A whole month of not talking.

37:57

No eye contact, no touching, no. So

38:00

what they're trying to do is close all your sense

38:02

doors down, you're sat with your eyes shut for

38:04

10 hours a day. And so all

38:07

the sense doors close down. And the idea is

38:09

that when you go in, your mind is like

38:11

a choppy pond, the surface of the water is

38:13

all choppy. And during the course of the 10

38:15

days that I did anyway, that the

38:17

surface of the water becomes calm and

38:19

all the silt goes down to the

38:21

bottom. And you can see the weeds, the weeds in your

38:23

own mind, and you can reach down and pull out the

38:26

weeds of your own mind. Oh, I love that.

38:28

That's such a great analogy. And then when

38:31

you're back in the... How long do

38:33

the benefits of that last? Or did they last

38:35

for you? A day. Well,

38:38

yeah. When

38:40

you're back in the real world. Funny

38:43

enough, at that time, it was 2009 when I first went, and

38:47

I'd never meditated before, but I was

38:49

curious because I wanted to learn how

38:51

to... I was coaching golfers. I wanted

38:53

to learn how to concentrate and develop

38:55

concentration, which is a skill we all

38:57

athletes want to get better at. There's

38:59

not one course in the country that

39:01

does it. And this meditation course said

39:03

you can master the mind. And so

39:05

I thought, well, I'll go for 10 days'

39:07

silence. But inside I

39:09

felt fear. And I

39:11

thought, well, how can I be frightened of myself

39:13

in silence? I've got to go and find out.

39:15

So I went for the 10 days. And it was... Like

39:18

I said, I'd never meditated before. I came

39:20

out and there was a competition in Bournemouth.

39:22

It's a 72 hole stroke play

39:25

competition, the only one in the country.

39:27

And I played in it a few times and done terribly.

39:30

And I won it in 2009. And

39:32

then I went for another 10 days

39:35

before the next tournament, the following year, no one had ever won

39:37

it in the 59 years it had

39:39

been going. No one had ever won it back

39:41

to back. And I won it again. So I

39:44

wanted to see if the techniques that I coach

39:46

golfers on worked. And they certainly

39:48

worked because my mind was like a

39:50

pond flat. John, I love that you practice

39:52

what you preach. That is amazing.

40:00

with Gabby Logan and Mark Chapman.

40:02

CHEERING Do

40:06

you want to be good at golf enough that

40:08

you would go on a silent retreat? That was

40:10

the first thing. When he said

40:12

he won back-to-back tournament, I was like, well,

40:14

the next time I'd play, even with my

40:16

mates, if I'd done a

40:19

10-day silent retreat beforehand just to come back

40:21

a better golfer, it would be worth it.

40:23

Do you know, it's interesting, though, because

40:26

I am clearly rubbish at golf, but... But

40:28

when I have to play in charity golf days

40:31

and somebody's effectively bought you to have on their

40:33

team, I feel compelled

40:35

to have to be slightly chatty. I

40:38

only play anything like decent golf if I don't

40:40

speak to anybody, including my

40:42

husband. So I think

40:45

the moral of this is I should just not play in charity

40:47

golf days. Well, or turn up at charity golf days and go,

40:50

listen, I've been talking to a golf performance coach,

40:53

which already will make them think, oh, aye. She's

40:56

an art. And secondly, he says I

40:58

can't talk to anybody. So

41:01

I'm just going to be silent. If

41:03

you want me to get you some points today, then let's

41:05

just speak later in the clubhouse. I'm fine with that. And

41:09

the person that we both work with, who annoyingly can

41:11

speak right up to the point and he strikes the

41:13

ball, which he usually does perfectly, and

41:15

straight down the middle, Dan Walker. Oh, God, yeah. I

41:17

mean, he's a ridiculously good golfer, but talks on his

41:20

backswing, for God's sake. Do you know, there was a

41:22

survey done, or

41:24

a piece of, not valuable research,

41:27

but a piece of research done

41:29

about celebrity golfers who

41:32

have the best handicap or to scratch or whatever.

41:34

And Dan was top. Dan

41:37

was the number one ahead of Gareth Bale.

41:39

No. I know, yeah.

41:41

Maybe now he's got quite a few more shows on his roster. He might

41:44

not be as good as Gareth Bale, because

41:46

Gareth's released a lot of time to be able

41:48

to do a little bit better. If

41:50

there's one thing, the two bitter amateur golfers here

41:52

hope. It's the classic

41:54

FM ruins Dan Walker's golf

41:57

career. OK. We

42:02

will of course be here

42:04

again in Berlin for the next episode

42:06

of the Sports Agents and we'd love

42:08

your questions on these European Championships as

42:10

well so keep those coming in please.

42:13

You can get in touch with

42:15

us as always at thesportsagentsatglobal.com, thesportsagentsatglobal.com

42:17

or on our socials. Yeah, keep

42:20

rating and subscribing to the podcast

42:22

and we'll be back with Scotland

42:25

potentially in or out the

42:27

tournament on Thursday. The Sports

42:29

Agents with Gabby Logan and Mark

42:31

Chapman.