0:00

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge

0:02

full seasons of The Spy Who

0:04

early and ad-free on Apple Podcasts

0:07

or The Wondery app. MUSIC

0:17

From Wondery, I'm Raza Jaffrey and this

0:19

is The Spy Who. When

0:25

diving into the world of spies,

0:27

we're often talking about historic figures,

0:29

people whose actions are felt today

0:32

but whose lives and adventures took

0:34

place decades ago. That's

0:37

not so with today's guest. Aemon

0:39

Dean's story is a gripping present-day

0:42

saga, which is still unfolding in

0:44

real time. Now,

0:46

as we've heard throughout the season, after he came

0:48

face to face with the realities of fighting a

0:50

holy war, Aemon turned

0:53

his back on Al-Qaeda to

0:55

become a spy. It

0:57

was the last thing he expected to do,

0:59

but he found his calling working as an

1:01

agent. MUSIC

1:06

Aemon risked not only his personal safety,

1:08

but also the safety of friends and

1:11

family when he agreed to aid counter-terrorism

1:13

efforts in the UK and beyond. And

1:16

then, rather unceremoniously, he was outed

1:19

by the institutions that he was

1:21

working to protect. It's

1:23

particularly fascinating for me. I have

1:25

been involved in spy dramas for quite a

1:27

fair bit of my career, and

1:29

I've certainly played some spies as well. And

1:32

I'm often asked whether or not those

1:35

stories are based in reality, how close

1:37

they are. So it'll be very interesting

1:40

for me today to find out what

1:42

it exactly is that

1:44

is the day-to-day life of being

1:46

a spy. Something tells me it's a little bit

1:48

more mundane than movies and TV lead us to

1:51

believe. So

1:56

what does life as an ex-spy look

1:58

like? How do you adjust?

2:00

from adrenaline and espionage to a more

2:02

ordinary way of living. My

2:05

guest today is Aemon himself,

2:08

author of Nine Lives, My

2:10

Time as MI6's top spy

2:13

inside Al-Qaeda, and co-host of

2:15

the Conflicted podcast. Hello,

2:20

Aemon. Hi, Razi. So grateful to you for

2:22

joining us today. Thank you. Should I be

2:24

calling you Aemon? Aemon, yeah. Or Ali or

2:26

Abu Abba. He's got... Aemon.

2:29

You've lived a lot of lives, you know, I'm

2:31

interested to find out about this. Aemon is fine.

2:33

That's what my kids like. I mean, well, actually,

2:35

like, I mean, these days, my daughter, at

2:38

the beginning, she used to call me Aemon. So first, she was

2:41

called me by my name, and then Daddy.

2:44

And now, it's bro. I

2:48

have that too. I have that too from mine. I

2:50

have to put a stop to that one. Yeah. No.

2:53

We're really so lucky to have you with us today.

2:55

Thank you. To hear really from the

2:57

person behind all the stories that we've enjoyed listening

2:59

to over the past episodes of this podcast, and

3:02

to find out what so much of those stories

3:04

were really like. Like I say, such an extraordinary

3:06

number of lives you've lived, and I'm so looking

3:08

forward to getting into what living those lives has

3:10

meant to you along the way. But

3:12

I have to start out, you know, as an

3:15

actor who's made a career telling stories of spies

3:17

and playing a number of them. It's great to

3:19

be sitting in front of a real one, but

3:21

I need you to answer a question for me.

3:23

I think you probably... I know the answer to

3:26

already, but can you tell me definitively today is

3:28

your world anything like the movie world of Spooks

3:30

or Homeland or Bond? No, there's

3:32

nothing of Homeland or Bond.

3:37

You mean everything I've been doing is a lie? Should

3:40

have been a spy. Well, unfortunately,

3:42

there are no... Well,

3:45

fortunately, if my wife is listening, there are

3:47

no girls. No

3:51

martinis, no nice cars. Speaking

3:54

down mountains, none of that stuff. No, although

3:56

like, I mean, there will be the occasional,

3:58

you know, front lines. drama

4:01

here and there, where there will

4:03

be shootings here and there. But

4:05

it's not like because you are

4:07

shooting against your enemies, you are actually like

4:09

an enemy shooting alongside your enemies against those

4:12

who you are supposed to be allied with.

4:14

I mean, it is one of those convoluted

4:16

worlds and scenarios basically that you live. Yeah,

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6:00

I'd like to start at the very beginning

6:02

and really talk about the origins of your

6:04

story and what led you to Bosnia in

6:06

the first place. You grew up in Saudi

6:08

Arabia. You were the youngest of one of

6:10

six brothers. Am I right with that? Indeed.

6:13

Yeah. And you lost your mother

6:15

when you were very young and

6:18

your father as well. Is that right? Indeed,

6:20

yes. Yeah. What did that loss

6:22

mean to you so early? Well,

6:24

I think what enabled

6:27

me, I think, to still

6:29

sail through all of this, I mean,

6:32

losing father at the age of four

6:34

and mother at the age of 12, was

6:37

still devastating, especially my mother, because by that

6:39

time, you know, you are more aware. I

6:41

mean, when you are four, you

6:43

feel the absence. When you are

6:45

12, you know, the absence

6:47

in itself become, you know, catastrophic in a

6:50

sense. But then I think

6:52

the fact that there are five older brothers

6:54

who are good at consoling and the

6:57

second thing also is the fact that

6:59

Saudi Arabia is a, at that

7:01

time, a conservative, close-knit

7:05

society. Everyone

7:08

was supporting each other. And I think that

7:10

kind of social support and the kids

7:13

of the school, the neighbors, the

7:17

fact they have uncles and aunts

7:19

and many cousins, that

7:21

at least, you know, made

7:24

the loss easier, I would say.

7:27

And was it a happy time then for

7:29

you in Saudi Arabia or were there difficulties,

7:31

like, politically for the family and the things

7:33

growing up? I would say it was happy

7:35

times. I mean, I was more

7:37

of a nerdy boy

7:39

growing up. And

7:41

I was more into books and

7:44

more into learning. And also I

7:46

was more of a, you know,

7:48

theologically and philosophically

7:50

curious kid at a

7:53

young age. And I think I was always also

7:56

fascinated with politics. I think it's

7:58

just you cannot grow. up in

8:00

the eastern province of Saudi Arabia

8:02

without being politically aware. I mean,

8:04

I grew up in the

8:06

80s where there was a

8:08

massive war next door to us between

8:10

Iraq and Iran, which was an

8:13

ethnic and sectarian conflict. I mean, I

8:16

grew up also at a

8:18

time when it was the Afghan jihad, at

8:20

a time when you hear

8:23

about all the stories of the

8:25

Lebanese Civil War. I mean, of

8:28

course, all of

8:30

this will politicize any child.

8:34

But it's fascinating to me that then you describe

8:37

yourself as this nerdy, kind of bookish boy,

8:40

turns up at his friend's house one day

8:42

and decides wholeheartedly that he's going to be

8:44

of use in a war saving Muslims in

8:46

Bosnia. What did you have to bring to

8:48

them? What did you think when you turned

8:50

there to say, I'm going to go and

8:52

do this? I remember when he

8:54

asked me the question, I mean, because he was three years

8:56

older than me. I was 16 at that time.

8:58

And he was telling me, for God's

9:00

sake, this is war, not picnic. Where

9:02

do you think we're heading to? And

9:04

I, you know, he was saying to

9:07

me, really, like, I mean, do you think the jihad

9:09

really needs you? Do you think the Bosnians really need

9:11

you? And I told him, no,

9:13

I'm not arrogant to think that the jihad needs

9:15

me, but I need it.

9:18

And I felt that somehow

9:20

I just was refusing

9:23

flat out to be a spectator,

9:26

watching the caravan of history passing by. I

9:29

remember when I arrived in

9:31

Bosnia, I was it was just three weeks

9:33

after my 16th birthday, and I

9:35

was praying so hard that I should

9:37

never see my 17th. Here

9:40

I am, you know, soon to be 46. I'm

9:44

still alive. To

9:47

this day, I'm still puzzled by the

9:49

fact that I do have this kind

9:51

of reckless

9:53

tendency to seek risk

9:56

rather than avoid it.

10:00

I think it was also the

10:02

fact that I just wanted

10:04

to be part of something bigger than

10:06

me, where I was living, my community,

10:08

my city, my town. It was too

10:10

small for me. I felt like, what

10:12

am I doing here? I don't feel

10:14

I belong here. I wanted to

10:17

be out there doing

10:19

what others are afraid

10:21

to do. Yeah. I know we'll

10:23

probably come into this later, but there must

10:25

be echoes of that in what you saw

10:27

with the movement in Britain in

10:30

later years about children from that environment feeling that

10:32

they wanted to get out of a situation. That

10:34

was what Jihad was calling them to do. Indeed,

10:38

because remember that no one wakes up

10:40

one day and think, oh, today I'm

10:42

feeling so good. I'm going to become

10:44

a terrorist. That's it. I'm

10:46

going to join an evil organization and

10:49

go kill Ray Pillage. It doesn't happen

10:52

like this. This

10:56

journey is, in my opinion, the

10:58

journey I've been on and a journey that

11:00

many others went on is

11:02

the embodiment of that

11:05

old adage, the

11:07

path to hell is paved with good

11:09

intentions. You

11:11

really want to go to

11:13

fight for those who cannot fight

11:15

for themselves. You feel that

11:18

when you see the images of the

11:21

slaughter, of the atrocities, and

11:23

you think why the

11:26

world is so powerless to do

11:28

anything? Then you

11:30

want to do it because there

11:32

is so much theology there

11:34

involved in terms of you wanting

11:37

to redeem yourself, wanting to be of use.

11:40

You want to move from being powerless

11:42

to powerful. You want to

11:45

feel that sense of empowerment. You want to feel

11:47

that sense of use to others. You

11:50

go. Then, of course, you're

11:53

too young. Basically,

11:55

when you are 16, wisdom is a

11:57

short supply. I mean, absolutely. There

11:59

is no supply. life with them. So you

12:01

go there and then that's it. You are

12:03

an easy catch for those who are waiting

12:05

at the other end. Yes,

12:08

the neon sign says, come

12:10

to save civilians, come to

12:12

fight for those who cannot

12:14

fight for themselves. But also,

12:17

we do have extra merchandise and

12:20

the fine print also talks about

12:23

future terrorism, suicide bombings and

12:25

other things like ideological brainwashing,

12:27

but that is for later.

12:29

So I think this is

12:31

where the trap is set.

12:33

Slowly, gradually you

12:35

enter into a different realm altogether.

12:38

I mean, you are separated.

12:40

You are in the in-between, between life

12:43

and death, where death

12:45

become ever-present. It's

12:47

always around the corner. And

12:49

you feel a sense of

12:52

beginning to divorce this world and

12:55

embrace the fact that you are

12:57

in a waiting

12:59

list. You are about to be called at any

13:02

moment to the afterlife. Right. So

13:04

do you think that that same

13:06

kind of feelings towards life and

13:08

its value, or at least the

13:10

life on this earth to Muslims

13:12

and its value, was what led

13:14

you to accept the risks of

13:16

working for MI6 and going back

13:18

and being around your peers all

13:20

over again in Afghanistan? Because

13:23

actually, those risks weren't the risks to an

13:25

average person because in your head, you'd already

13:27

decided that the life on earth isn't the

13:29

most important thing to you. Well,

13:31

I mean, I will die the one day I'm supposed to

13:33

die. I mean, this is one of the things. I mean,

13:36

in Bosnia, there was an incident where I still

13:39

remember it was September 12, 1995.

13:43

That date is etched in my memory. I

13:47

was rushing into a bunker in order to

13:49

save someone who was screaming his heads off.

13:51

I mean, and I was worried, you know,

13:54

he will alert the snipers. And I was

13:56

running. And by, you know, I just noticed

13:58

that something was holding me. logically,

18:01

or actually just stick to

18:03

the truth. And I

18:05

remember there is a statement

18:07

by the Prophet Muhammad where he

18:09

says in Arabic, as-Sudkum and Jat,

18:12

that truth is salvation. And

18:15

boy, I mean, I did. That's

18:17

exactly what happened. There is

18:19

salvation in the truth. Which is extraordinary coming

18:21

from a spy because so much of your

18:23

life is not the truth. It has to

18:26

be all the time. It must be a

18:28

difficult thing to live with sometimes. Well, not

18:30

necessarily. You see, there is a lot of

18:33

misconception about espionage that it's all

18:35

lies. No. Actually,

18:38

the best of spies are those

18:40

who do not resort to lying

18:42

most of the time, but they

18:45

are mostly economic with the truth.

18:49

Right. So in that time with

18:51

the Qatari's, how did they trust

18:53

you? As

18:56

someone who's from the Gulf and they are

18:58

from the Gulf, the distance between us,

19:00

like in those four hours by drive, it's the same

19:02

accent. It

19:05

is the same families, the same tribal

19:08

structure. So the

19:10

rapport between me and them was

19:12

more like guys

19:14

sitting, having tea and just going through

19:16

this. It wasn't an interrogation. It

19:19

was really like with food

19:21

and tea and coffee and drinks and

19:23

all of that. Snacks

19:25

and talking and joking. So

19:28

it wasn't what you would think.

19:31

There wasn't a movie version where you were sitting chomped to a

19:33

table and someone was shining a lamp on your face. No,

19:36

no, no, no, no. I

19:38

think you see, this is why I always tell

19:40

people, the Americans really

19:43

got it wrong in the first years of

19:45

the war on terrorism with their rendition and

19:48

enhanced interrogation and

19:50

all of that. You want to get things out

19:52

of people, be kind to them. That's

19:54

what you have to do. The Qataris knew this from the

19:57

beginning. They were extremely kind to me. I was also kind

19:59

to Rutan. come

22:00

on, why wouldn't you have fallen in love

22:02

with this? People who actually,

22:05

on the same wavelength with

22:09

you intellectually speaking, you

22:11

immediately bond with them because they are trained to

22:13

do that. That's the first thing. But also at

22:15

the same time, you can't dismiss

22:17

the fact that they are fellow humans

22:20

with their own set

22:23

of ambitions, dreams, problems,

22:25

worries, anxieties, but also at the same time,

22:28

loyalty, and above all,

22:31

loyalty to their country.

22:34

These are people who love their country. You're

22:45

now going back and forth

22:48

between Afghanistan, between Beirut, between

22:50

London at this point. This

22:53

is when you're first working for

22:56

MI6. What changed for you crossing

22:58

those borders? This time,

23:00

it's just that you feel

23:02

a little sense of

23:04

ease because you have

23:06

a little bit of protection. You're

23:09

crossing, but this time you are not on the wrong

23:11

side of the law. Let's

23:14

put it this way. It's

23:16

still dangerous. If I go into Lebanon

23:18

and Hezbollah find out, or Jamalah

23:20

Islami, and find out, oh my God, I'm not

23:23

going to be in good shape. You have to

23:26

not incriminate myself with association

23:28

with MI6. But what you do is that,

23:30

okay, no problem, go to prison and then

23:32

figure out what to do after

23:34

that. But for now, you are not supposed

23:36

to do that. At the same time, sometimes you come up

23:39

with the most outlandish

23:42

ideas. You have to just

23:45

talk to immigration officers

23:47

based on their local

23:50

beliefs, exploit their local

23:54

traditions, and just befriend them

23:56

and try to appeal

23:59

to their interests. know, areas of curiosity

24:01

and interest. So is that again another

24:03

kind of comment rate of a spy,

24:05

like being able to bond with people,

24:07

charm people in that way? You

24:09

have to. Being a

24:11

charming person is important, especially that

24:14

if you have a sense of humor, it's important.

24:16

A sense of humor for a spy is

24:19

important because it shows

24:21

that you are at ease, that

24:23

you're not nervous, that you are

24:26

not afraid of anything, you

24:28

have no worries. A sense

24:30

of humor is a very good shield. Was there a

24:32

lot of laughing in those camps? Oh,

24:34

yes. I mean, this is why I said, like,

24:36

I mean, it was you sit down

24:38

with people because you learn more about them. I mean,

24:40

I never looked at them as

24:42

enemies. I looked at

24:45

them as objects of learning, curiosity,

24:47

experiments, you know. And this is

24:49

why it was important that I

24:51

should never view them with hostility,

24:53

because if I start to do

24:55

that, it will show. And

24:57

I will start to become more

25:00

withdrawn from them. No, I'm not supposed to do that.

25:02

I have to care about them. And I

25:05

have to make them care about me. There

25:07

must then have been difficult decisions because there's

25:09

people that you really do care about. And

25:11

potentially you're putting them in danger by talking

25:13

to the authorities about what they're involved with.

25:16

Was that difficult? Of course, it was

25:18

difficult. But nonetheless, you have to look at the bigger picture.

25:21

You have to always understand. I

25:23

know this is a cliche. I know like many

25:25

people roll their eyes when you say this phrase,

25:28

but it is for the greater good. You

25:32

will never understand, you know, what

25:34

is the greater good until you

25:36

go through war and conflict and

25:38

you see mass graves and you

25:40

see the worst of the

25:43

worst of humanity. Because

25:45

at the end of the day, remember that

25:48

these people I tell jokes with, you know,

25:50

I eat with. You will be surprised that

25:54

people with such tender

25:57

affections to each other would be. Okay,

30:00

where are you living right now? I said, well, I

30:02

was living in Oxford. Oh, someone from Birmingham is gonna

30:04

come and see you. And so,

30:06

of course, I mean, I received this

30:09

ominous, you know, two

30:11

people coming to my apartment in

30:14

Oxford, and they were

30:16

from Dudley, or shall I say

30:18

Dudley. And so, and

30:23

so this is when I, you know, I

30:26

was sucked into this world of Anwar

30:28

al-Awlaki, and these people who were recruited

30:30

by him, you know, when he was

30:32

in preaching in the White

30:35

Chapel Mosque in East

30:37

London, and then later in the Midlands. And

30:40

of course, like, I mean, I started

30:42

to become more acquainted with the

30:44

Birmingham, Jihadi circles, and of course went to

30:46

Dudley. And this is where I met, you

30:49

know, Hamayon

30:52

Tarek, you know, who would later,

30:54

you know, up until 2016, 17, 18, would

30:57

become one of the greatest bomb makers ISIS

31:00

in our head in Iraq and Syria. And

31:02

that tells you a lot. So I met

31:04

him for the first time, and it was,

31:06

you know, the winter of 2004. And,

31:10

you know, and he was telling me, I

31:12

was given your number by, you know,

31:15

such and such, and, you know, he told

31:17

me to get in touch with you because,

31:19

you know, we are planning something. And I

31:21

said, oh, dear, not

31:24

again. I just, can you give me just a breather?

31:27

I just came back from another plot. Just

31:29

don't smack me with another one.

31:33

And I said, oh, I'm all ears, you

31:35

know, I'm at your service. You tell me like, I know what you need

31:37

to do. And so he told me that they are planning, you know,

31:40

to use nicotine poison, a

31:42

poison that you can make out of cigarettes. And that's

31:44

why I tell people do not smoke when they put

31:47

that- Nicotine poison, that's a new one on me. I

31:49

haven't heard that before. Well, a nicotine poison is a

31:51

poison. I don't go into details as how you do

31:53

it, but it is extracted out of cigarettes. And

31:55

so this is why, you know,

31:58

I just, I left it in my hand.

32:00

immediately, guys, there are some

32:02

psychos out of Dudley and they

32:05

want to do something. And

32:07

immediately we started putting the plans together.

32:09

It took about four months, from December

32:12

2004 until March 2005, to understand this whole cell,

32:14

their connections, who are they,

32:21

what is their target. They wanted to target... Because

32:24

nicotine poison, if you mix it

32:27

with certain other additives, it

32:29

could penetrate the skin and could

32:31

kill by touch. So if

32:33

you were to brush against

32:35

door handles of, let's say,

32:37

like, I mean, Bentleys and

32:39

Rolls-Royces and Ferraris and all

32:42

rich houses, door handles, like I mean.

32:44

And so it is the

32:47

audacity of it, the fact that it

32:49

is designed

32:52

to give people terror.

32:55

Because terrorism is about installing fear in the

32:58

hearts of people. Yeah, because you don't

33:00

know if it's going to be you. If it's on your door

33:02

handle, if you do it to 30 people, how do I not

33:04

know that my door handle is not going to be covered in

33:06

it? Exactly. 30 random people.

33:08

So suddenly, basically, I mean, I remember,

33:10

and I was joking with my handlers,

33:12

I said, should I buy shares

33:15

in any company that produce gloves?

33:20

They said, don't you dare. Of

33:25

course, like, it was a joke. Because

33:27

I was, of course, like, we

33:29

were going to fold the plot anyway. How

33:32

far along the line did they get with the plot? Let's

33:35

put it this way. I mean, they

33:37

really were two weeks away from it.

33:39

That's it. They were preparing their wills.

33:41

They were basically deciding that... And

33:43

they were actually booking their flights. So they will do

33:45

it and then they will fly straight away. So

33:48

providing that intelligence along the way,

33:51

was it in your remit to

33:53

decide which intelligence to give? Because,

33:55

for example, had you

33:57

given them a catalog of information and

34:00

knowing that you were probably the only spy,

34:02

as far as you know, inside Al-Qaeda at

34:05

the time, did you not

34:07

fear that giving them a chunk

34:09

of information after a chunk of information, these

34:12

plots were getting full, each one was in front of

34:14

you, there's a pattern here, did you not think this

34:16

is going to expose me? So I need to hold

34:18

back some of this, I won't give them some of

34:20

this information, or were you just taught, give them everything,

34:22

let them figure that out? Yes, it

34:26

is exactly as it is. You give them everything and they

34:28

will figure it out, because the

34:30

more you hide, you

34:33

don't know, because I have part of the picture,

34:35

they have the full one. So,

34:37

you know, I'm not supposed to second guess.

34:39

But that's incredible faith, isn't it? Incredible

34:41

faith in the people you work for. Exactly,

34:44

because, you know, it's military discipline.

34:47

It is military discipline. You

34:50

know, it's not for the, you know,

34:53

for the unit commanders to

34:55

question the brigade commander, you

34:58

know, so because the brigade commander have the full

35:00

picture than the unit commanders. And I think this

35:02

is exactly why I'm not

35:04

supposed to second guess, you

35:07

know, what they might or might not do,

35:10

I just have to trust them. And part

35:12

of the trust is the fact that, well, I mean,

35:14

you know, I'm valuable. I'm not, they are not going

35:16

to throw me like this, you

35:19

know, or throw away my contribution. So this is

35:21

why, you know, it

35:23

is a risk you have to take. Now,

35:27

that must therefore have been a really,

35:30

really awful time when suddenly they

35:32

did put you in that situation

35:34

when you were sent that text

35:36

message and told that you

35:38

needed to look at the Time magazine article in 2006,

35:42

and that you'd been betrayed by the people that

35:44

you'd done so much for, when you put so

35:46

much faith in their decisions about the information that

35:48

they'd given you. What did that feel in

35:50

that moment? I

35:53

remember I was actually taking the first holiday in

35:55

my life. I mean, in my

35:57

life as a private individual, I

36:00

remember I went to my handlers, it

36:02

was May of 2006, and I said, guys,

36:05

can you believe it? I've been working seven and

36:07

a half years nonstop. Nonstop.

36:10

So I think I

36:12

deserve the holiday. And I would love to see

36:14

Paris. I've never seen it before. So they

36:17

said, by all means. So I went

36:19

there, and it was

36:22

Saturday. Then on Sunday, I'm

36:24

enjoying myself. The second day in

36:26

this beautiful city, I am in the river

36:28

sand enjoying this

36:30

boat ride. And

36:33

I received this text message. There

36:36

is a spy among us, go into hiding. Go

36:39

and read this Time

36:41

Magazine website. And

36:43

I was okay, but I'm waiting for this

36:46

boat to stop. Then I went into

36:48

the Internet Cafe, went into the Time

36:51

Magazine website. They clicked on it. So

36:53

they headline. My

36:55

heart went all the way to my throat.

36:57

And then when I started reading the details,

36:59

it went all the way to my stomach.

37:03

I just was like, it says

37:06

there, a brilliant spy with an

37:09

al-Qaeda, thwarted the chemical

37:11

attack against the New

37:13

York subway just before the war on Iraq.

37:16

And by the way, that plot remained secret

37:18

for three years. No one knew about it.

37:20

I mean, absolutely no one knew about it.

37:23

And I was thinking, oh my

37:25

God. I

37:29

just read everything.

37:31

And then I realized that they even

37:33

chose my birth name to identify me

37:35

with. And

37:37

I was thinking out of the 4,000 bloody

37:39

names in Arabic, why

37:41

they have to choose the name that I

37:43

was born with. And then even to hint

37:46

that I am from Bahrain, great.

37:48

You might as well have put a crosshair on

37:50

me, idiot. But

37:52

also I realized immediately that it

37:54

wasn't a leak from the British, it was

37:57

a leak from the Americans. And...

37:59

And they are the ones who decided

38:02

that they want to claim my

38:04

contribution as theirs, and

38:07

that I am their spy and their success story,

38:09

because they wanted a success story at that time

38:13

when the Bush administration was under criticism that

38:15

they have no effective

38:17

espionage against the United States,

38:20

and that this is why they are failing time and

38:22

time again to do

38:25

something. So they're saying, no, no, no.

38:27

We already prevented quite a few attacks. We already have

38:29

a spy inside look item. And he

38:32

was claiming that I am an American spy

38:34

and that it is all the triumphs of

38:37

the CIA. And I

38:39

was thinking, no, they're not. So

38:43

I was just running towards the phone booth.

38:45

You know, of course it was Sunday, so

38:47

I called the emergency line, you know, and

38:49

I gave the code name Lawrence and I

38:52

said, you know, emergency, emergency, like someone need

38:54

to call me immediately. And then the five

38:56

minutes later, my handler called me and he

38:58

said, you know, of course, like he

39:00

used the F word and everything and all of that. And he

39:02

said, go to garden or get

39:05

the first ticket back to Waterloo. It was Waterloo at

39:07

that time, instead of St. Pancras now. And

39:11

we will wait for you there. Just I have

39:13

only one message for you. Don't

39:15

worry. We will look after you. You

39:18

don't have anything to worry about. We

39:21

will look after you. Did you

39:23

trust them? Yes. Straight

39:25

away? Straight away. I mean, I have

39:27

no other choice. So,

39:44

Ayman, after all your

39:47

successes, your career, your

39:49

spying career ended rather abruptly when

39:51

the US outed you in the

39:53

Time article. Were there crisis talks

39:55

at the time to see about, you know, ways they

39:57

could get you back in? fooling

40:00

people to think actually that wasn't the Ali they

40:02

were talking about and get the journalist to rise

40:04

another article saying that the the Ali was a

40:06

name he made up or I don't know figuring

40:08

out a way were there talks about that? Because

40:10

you must have been so valuable. Get your bag in, right?

40:14

No, that's it. The cat is out of the bag and

40:17

you can't roll the dice with the lives

40:19

of people like that. You

40:21

know, I would love to have gone back. Like, I mean, I

40:23

would have done it. But

40:26

unfortunately, like, you know, I mean, you know, the

40:28

sitting came from up. No, it

40:32

is for resettlement. And so I became

40:34

a resettlement case. That's what

40:36

I call it. Yeah, a resettlement case.

40:38

And did they look after you? Well,

40:42

judging by the fact, like, you know, basically, I mean, I

40:44

lived all this time. And,

40:47

you know, I went into a very respectable job

40:49

and one of the biggest banks in the world,

40:53

you know, I worked with them for nine years. I

40:55

work as a consultant for many governments around the world,

40:57

as well as banks

40:59

and private institutions, you

41:02

know, done quite well for myself, multiple businesses,

41:04

all of that. Like, I mean, does

41:07

they, you know, look after me? I mean, without

41:10

any shadow of a doubt. I've always

41:12

wondered, once you've left the security services,

41:15

what happens when you see someone who you

41:17

know is still in the service? Do you,

41:19

is there a special look? I mean, do

41:21

you catch someone's eye at one moment, if

41:23

you're in a in a cafe

41:26

or something, knowing that that person works for a

41:28

my six? And the two of you just know,

41:30

but walk on by. Does that happen to you?

41:33

It happened twice

41:36

where, you know, I just get

41:38

the look that ignore me. But

41:42

the rest of the time, you

41:44

know, they just come out of nowhere, big

41:46

hugs, you know, pat on the back. Okay,

41:48

yeah, I just left. I'm now in the

41:51

private sector. Yay. Okay, I mean, let's sit

41:53

down and let's talk about the good old

41:55

days. And so, yeah, I mean,

41:58

it happens a lot. that

42:01

out of nowhere, one of

42:03

my previous handlers, the people I

42:05

met before, will jump up out of nowhere,

42:12

basically, like email me or get in touch

42:14

on LinkedIn or social media, basically, and say,

42:16

hey, remember, yeah, hi. And

42:19

then we'll say, well, I just retired. I would love

42:21

to see you for dinner. Were there

42:23

other spies you knew of while you were there at

42:25

the camps? Did they have anyone else in, or can

42:27

you not talk about that now? I

42:30

don't know about the British, but we

42:33

came to know about five others, but they

42:35

were, of course, working for the Egyptians and

42:37

the Jordanian intelligence services. And goodness, they met

42:40

grisly end. Yes, they

42:42

were all in their thirties. I mean, over

42:44

the three years I was spying against the

42:46

Qaid and Afghanistan. I mean, basically, five spies

42:49

were caught. Three were working for the Egyptians

42:51

and two for

42:53

the Jordanians, so five in total. And

42:55

all of them were executed. And there was

42:57

one actually who was Syrian, and

43:00

he was working for one of the Gulf intelligence

43:02

agencies, and he was handed over

43:04

to Taliban at the last minute because

43:06

they intervened to take

43:09

him from al-Qaid, because he was

43:11

supposed to be executed also. So actually six in

43:13

total. And I remember that

43:16

all of them were in their thirties.

43:18

All of them were mature people, and I

43:20

was always

43:23

praising the professionalism

43:26

and the wonderful training that

43:30

MI6 gave me. And in particular,

43:33

there was always this

43:36

low expectations, this policy of low

43:38

expectations. In other words, basically, Amen,

43:40

just go there, have fun, come

43:42

back. If there is nothing to

43:44

tell us about, we are just happy

43:47

that you're back. Since

43:49

you've left and worked

43:52

as you have since then and built a

43:54

life for yourself in all these years afterwards,

43:56

do you miss those days, those adrenaline-fueled days?

43:58

Do you ever find yourself in

44:01

a shop wondering what if, or at

44:03

an airport checkpoint thinking, wow, those days

44:05

were different then. I mean, how do

44:08

you reconcile that life now? I

44:13

don't feel that I

44:15

miss that sense of danger for a reason.

44:18

I think it's just, I

44:21

think up until 2017, I was always thinking, what

44:25

if I stayed in? What if there

44:27

was no leak from

44:29

the American side? What if I stayed in more and more? I

44:31

could have gone to Iraq because I had an invitation to go to Iraq and

44:34

to spend time with Zarqawi himself. I

44:37

really, I mean, was going

44:40

to do even more wonders, hopefully. And I was thinking like

44:42

that. I would have thought like, I always felt I didn't

44:44

do enough. I

44:49

always feel that. You always feel

44:51

that, like when you are in

44:53

that world, that I didn't do enough. You know, you're

44:56

always chasing that glory, I think. But then, of course, 2014, I

44:58

got married. And

45:02

this is when you start to think, and

45:04

then slowly, gradually, you

45:07

start to become domesticated, which

45:10

wasn't easy. I think the

45:12

moment my daughter was born, I think

45:14

when I saw her for the first

45:16

time, I thought, there

45:20

is no way in hell I'm

45:22

going back to do anything risky. Whatsoever

45:24

I'm going to live to see this

45:27

one get married, and get

45:30

that PhD and

45:32

run that company. There's

45:35

an Arab father speaking right there. Indeed.

45:41

Well, I'm really glad you've been able to have

45:43

a life for yourself afterwards. And thank you so

45:46

much for sharing all this. I could really go

45:48

on. It's fascinating to know just how much insight

45:50

you have into those times. So

45:53

thank you for your time today,

45:55

and thank you for answering our

45:57

questions. Thank you so much. Much

45:59

appreciated. Aemon's

46:04

book is Nine Lives, my

46:06

time as MI6's top spy

46:08

inside Al-Qaeda. Or you can

46:10

hear him on the Conflicted

46:13

podcast. This brings

46:15

us to the end of our season on Aemon

46:17

Dean. But do join us

46:19

for the next season, The Spy Who

46:21

Diffused the Missile Crisis, with

46:24

my co-host Indira Varma. Next

46:28

time we open the file on

46:30

Oleg Penkovsky, The Spy

46:33

Who Diffused the Missile Crisis.

46:35

It's 1960 and

46:37

the world hangs on the brink of nuclear

46:39

war. However, one man in Moscow is about

46:42

to emerge from the shadows with an offer

46:44

for the CIA, an offer

46:46

that included the Soviet Union's

46:48

greatest nuclear secrets. His

46:51

name is Oleg Penkovsky. Follow

46:54

The Spy Who now wherever you listen

46:56

to podcasts. From

47:19

Wandery, this is the final episode

47:21

in our series, The Spy Who

47:23

Betrayed Bin Laden. This

47:25

bonus episode of The Spy Who is

47:27

hosted by me, Raza Jaffrey. Our

47:30

show is produced by Vespucci for

47:32

Wandery with story consultancy by Yellow

47:34

Ant. The producer of

47:36

this episode is Natalia Rodriguez. Our

47:39

senior producer is Thomas Curry. Our

47:42

sound designer is Iva Manley. Music

47:45

supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Fris and

47:48

Sync. Executive producers for

47:50

Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel

47:52

Turkin. The executive producer

47:54

for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our

47:58

managing producer for Wandery is Rachel Sonders.

48:00

Sibley. Executive producers

48:02

for Wandery are Estelle Doyle,

48:04

Jessica Radburn and Marshall Dewey.