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and Property Insurance Company and Affiliates Northbrook, Illinois. Hello!

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And welcome to the Storyteller Naked Villainy

0:35

And and this special episode you're going

0:37

to hear the second part of my

0:39

interview with retired frantic officer Arrogance and

0:42

who in last week's episode revealed the

0:44

time of Brand as death and a

0:46

piece of evidence jammed under her ring.

0:49

Will pick up immediately from the point

0:52

where we left and I begin by

0:54

asking him about coming face to face

0:56

with Kit and Court which leads to

0:59

an unexpected story. You.

1:01

Obviously. We're. At

1:03

the scene. What? Was

1:05

it like few and I suppose it wouldn't

1:08

be a question that you'd be aswell you

1:10

are serving police officer books it be relevant

1:12

that you're retired and I can ask you

1:14

know what was it like seeing the man.

1:18

Aged. Eighty Two accused of this

1:20

crime sitting before you and linking that

1:22

the you know this was the person

1:25

accused of committing not Rand is that

1:27

you saw her body and even the

1:29

of professional. It's an extremely upsetting thing

1:31

to see so then to see this

1:34

this affect the an old man sitting

1:36

there. Accused. Of it. Will.

1:39

Only had seen him as a young man. I

1:43

was present. At his

1:46

medical examination. I

1:48

heard was so much involved in that case it

1:50

might be some to eat. I. Think

1:52

the ceiling was. A

1:54

robot? Have somebody else and

1:57

another witness or Janssens been

1:59

involved. The older so far

2:01

right will get him to

2:03

to to guide to the

2:05

police doctrine for samples save

2:07

the lauper needed. And

2:10

Roy enough very the.would be the door

2:12

didn't own a very serious case he

2:14

would. He would certainly have a forensic

2:16

scientist stanley's again and witnessing the site

2:19

that medical samples were taken so I

2:21

see our. I I

2:23

can remember. I.

2:25

Can't remember the attitude. The

2:29

Do you do?

2:33

Ever started goods. From.

2:38

The superior luke that was

2:40

given to. Both adopted

2:43

by sales or take I think he

2:45

was introduced. I forget who introduced him.

2:48

The zebra, the stuff hours and

2:50

in. And say this is

2:52

this is.sir Christopher Father, son.

2:54

To read the the to stop

2:57

drop. And do. My

2:59

memory and I've never forgotten this.

3:04

The Police.to have. Seemed.

3:07

A little seized. A

3:11

and I can understand why. I'm.

3:17

The smugness I can still smoke

3:19

as from that day back in

3:22

Nineteen Seventy Eight. The smartness. And

3:24

I live and let the. During

3:26

the investigation I learn that. Aberdeen,

3:32

City. Police is based

3:34

see Id interviewer. Got

3:37

absolutely no Korea but how to

3:39

support us and was too smart.

3:42

Absolutely too smart.

3:46

And we were unfortunate and and

3:48

not getting. The. Evidence that might

3:50

otherwise have been got, possibly because of the

3:52

eight and butter connection and that sort of

3:55

thing, But.

3:57

All what memories I have. Anthony

4:00

thing? Can you tell me what's.

4:03

You. Can remember. By and and described

4:05

the procedural foot would have happened

4:07

with his again. everyone has seen

4:09

television programs and whatnot but the

4:11

reality of thought that would have

4:13

involved is it coming in. The

4:15

clothes been removed are a strip

4:17

search, a few light for out

4:19

and. I'm no involved in that

4:21

side of it. The really the

4:23

only aspect that. In. The

4:25

lab we would be involved

4:27

and as a see Id

4:29

officer would bring in boxes

4:31

close seeing these are the

4:33

suspects clothing. But. I mean what

4:36

happened and you tell me what happened when you

4:38

are present for his medical. Examination.

4:41

Am. I

4:45

sent. His clothing had been taken also.

4:47

I think he was he was trying

4:49

to cover didn't they did? You know

4:51

the. You know

4:53

the the most short. I

4:55

think he was dressed like though pretty.

4:57

Came in so it wasn't easy to.

4:59

It was sorry it wasn't difficult for

5:02

the. Bill the priest doctor

5:04

to to access the parts of his

5:06

body the way we needed to take

5:08

samples from. Humboldt.

5:11

Park the body. Would that have been

5:13

a mean? For example, would you have

5:15

checked. His. Genital area looking

5:18

for signs of sexual activity.

5:21

Well that the metics the the doctor

5:23

would have done that sorts of forget

5:25

it. I may not have actually seen

5:27

know that if he took a particular

5:29

sample like would have taken. Head.

5:32

And pubic. Hair

5:35

samples both caught on

5:37

Coombs. Notes: You

5:39

understand the difference. Caught

5:41

caught his to sure. What?

5:44

His here is like. Cold.

5:49

Is to see this and

5:51

eighty of from some what

5:53

else have any fibers are

5:55

here or any other substance

5:57

has transferred from elsewhere. Cut.

6:00

Oh. And don't want to

6:02

be not blood sample taken. From.

6:06

What? Else. Fingernail

6:13

scrapings an effect dated

6:15

feature. Because. There there

6:17

was say. There was a

6:19

hint of blood on their

6:21

saw nothing later. Because Dna

6:24

profiling and associated techniques improved

6:26

so much over the years,

6:29

You would encounter smaller quantities

6:31

that effort to. Where.

6:33

We're just not to. Find

6:36

double. And

6:39

I think you're right they. I've got

6:41

the mugshots I'm and I have used

6:43

it out. His Day Mchale I've shared

6:45

and is it is though it's there

6:47

for me. it looks like one of

6:49

those. and. Horrible. Blankets

6:52

on i'm imagining it was his fault,

6:54

would have been used in Sao. Like

6:57

the cell blanket the looks like that

6:59

the he's got kind of over his

7:01

shoulders rather than a sort of police

7:04

cell issued jumpsuit. rent and way that

7:06

doesn't have the news days. Yeah.

7:09

I thought out of the other yeah,

7:11

I'm just going on the buckshot. To

7:14

be honest, I was more interested in

7:16

his facial expression. And sold for.

7:18

He spoke about me, didn't speak very much,

7:21

But to very smug. Definitely

7:23

very smart. Superior.

7:29

That's. My memory. Knowing

7:32

what you know and of course

7:34

having recent podcast is on having

7:37

all that information. Is

7:40

your belief that. This

7:43

he he planned it so

7:46

well. And his

7:48

trip to Edinburgh was so obvious.

7:50

even buying shoes and the watch.

7:53

Were. So obvious that let's say he knew

7:55

that there is a potential he needed to

7:57

replace things he could have bought them. Well,

8:00

Fan and had the mail so you know it me

8:02

or just throw another peer she's of the mic set

8:04

of did you think it was so. He.

8:06

Did all these things he went to.

8:08

The where it's suspected either puts it

8:10

in the incinerator op's the medical building

8:13

which is where he used to work

8:15

in as and brought to the place.

8:18

Also, I believe that was the

8:20

only city in Scotland that incinerated.

8:22

Oh, it's rubbish. M B D

8:24

think it was almost. So.

8:28

Trance. Parents, his.

8:31

Cover up, but he knew he'd done it

8:33

so well. That. It was almost

8:35

opponent to the police. This

8:38

but of course the votes about might have

8:40

been that is. One. Of

8:43

the major mistakes.that that would have been

8:45

made it. But. To

8:47

from memory. Of

8:49

course we're hoping to. Have.

8:52

Entailed old your podcasts yet. So.

8:55

Where I'm looking forward to that

8:57

bought term. For.

9:00

It for the we hear him say anything more

9:02

about the The Watts but up. In

9:04

the fireplace. But to. Oh,

9:07

he says it, it, it, it must have

9:09

a a kid damaged his watch all those

9:11

years ago and he thinks that it was

9:14

sitting on the mantelpiece and it must have

9:16

fallen in on and been sorted concealed by

9:18

the great. He wasn't even aware, but that

9:20

wouldn't make sense either because. He's.

9:23

Dying to have used his fire. In.

9:25

The in those years in between. Am.

9:29

There. With ash and the fire, don't think

9:31

you'd believe that sitting for users if

9:33

he never used it. My city is.

9:36

I. Don't believe he went home. In.

9:38

Between committing the murder on going

9:40

to the train station because he

9:43

was on or he claims he

9:45

was on the platform and when

9:47

it was five o'clock there's a

9:49

story about he set his alarm.

9:52

And he woke up with a shock.

9:55

And his cloak was at five

9:57

o'clock so he thought he'd missed

9:59

the train. He. Got in

10:01

his car and he drew to

10:03

Stonehaven and to his astonishment. As

10:06

he got on the platform he moved

10:08

to the cloak and it with five

10:10

o'clock said his cloak must stop. To

10:13

that means that he left his home.

10:15

Sometime after. For now.

10:18

Let's. See, he's not at his home

10:20

if she's murdered. Ah

10:23

say was it three forty? Use

10:25

it was. it's before to you

10:28

said serious about her watch starts.

10:30

At three forty. Let's

10:33

imagine that this tax to veto

10:35

takes however many minutes. I think

10:37

people actually be quite shocked they

10:40

knew how short sometimes the tax

10:42

can be even with.many blues and.

10:45

Then he does is quick

10:48

clean up operation. Change.

10:50

His clothes most likely. And

10:53

then gets in the car. And then in

10:55

those days, guys and to Stonehaven in particular,

10:57

many would have taken considerably longer than it

10:59

does these days. For. Him

11:01

to then end up aren't. They and are

11:03

also he would have been parked not outside

11:06

the house. He would have been parked I

11:08

think probably a good few streets away. at

11:10

least. I agree. And.

11:13

Drive third: I don't believe that he

11:15

would have risk going back to size

11:17

with the risk of neighbors been alerted

11:19

to a car rise and back at

11:21

a peculiar time. And

11:24

then going to the train station because

11:26

that would have given him a we

11:28

streets away someone said oh yes car

11:30

so as caught a hard the door

11:32

I think that. He. Then goes

11:34

to Edinburgh on we do know. He.

11:37

Goes to not one bit

11:39

to watch shops. And

11:41

he returns to the first one.

11:44

After he's and bought the watch because the

11:47

first shop doesn't have for he wants the

11:49

second shop. Has the boards

11:51

but not the strap he wants. He

11:53

wanted a nylon stop by then. By

11:55

the enemy with said bostic I think

11:57

it was so he then goes back.

12:00

He the first show and says do

12:02

you have any nylon. Straps Minnesota, so

12:04

he was quite keen. To

12:07

get. A nylon strap which

12:09

be a replica I'm imagining of

12:11

the one that he had argument

12:13

and like he had replaced it.

12:15

So. I think. He perhaps

12:18

that one just gonna keep my

12:20

strap. A and

12:22

our edo out of figure that I

12:24

would tell. Get another stop another day

12:26

or or he would he do. He

12:28

hadn't disposed of it because he did the

12:31

shopping before. He got rid of the stocks

12:33

the had to buy the shoes. And

12:35

he did all this before he

12:37

went to the medical buildings. So

12:40

he didn't destroy everything and try to place

12:43

at first because of the he was waiting

12:45

shoes. So I think he possibly decided to

12:47

hold on to the what stop or maybe

12:49

it was in his pocket because he wanted

12:51

the same one. Perhaps

12:53

not expecting the police.

12:56

To. Be at his door that quickly

12:59

may be and if he had

13:01

time I believe he entered his

13:03

home he didn't. A

13:05

cost him before he got the door I

13:07

believe they wasted from to go inside and

13:09

then they went the door and he might

13:11

have just as had enough time to. Chuck.

13:14

It there. And as a

13:16

as an afterthought, that's my theory

13:18

anyway. My.

13:22

Memory. Or

13:24

Brian candidate a burrito. the

13:26

yeah, He. He

13:29

saw the what's drop in the

13:31

fireplace. And

13:33

I'm Susan Picked it up and brought it to me.

13:37

And I don't know be they are temporarily

13:39

anyone. That I

13:42

was actually sued by Brian Candid

13:44

Do Korea of He picked up

13:46

the What Strong. And

13:48

my memory from forty five years.

13:51

But. Is it? The.

13:54

Fireplace contained materials whether it

13:57

was papers or people. Since.

14:01

Ready. To ignite. That.

14:04

Never have been ignited.

14:07

I'm sure it was a fire ready

14:09

to ignite at the what struck was

14:12

sitting on top of the at least

14:14

a person or I don't remember for

14:16

the respects but I have a i

14:18

haven't moved the memory the it was

14:20

papers. Crumpled. Up papers and

14:22

the watch strap was sitting in the top.

14:25

And I I I just have a gut

14:27

feeling. No.

14:29

More the not. That. He

14:32

would have gone home. From

14:34

Olive Street. Before.

14:36

Heading to Edinburgh. Put.

14:38

About feeding the hands. That.

14:41

Would have needed to be done. Perhaps I don't

14:43

know. how often do you feed hands? Well.

14:45

This is thought know the he said he

14:47

hadn't been federal Day because he'd been away

14:49

from thoroughly. So let's see he lives. He

14:51

genuinely had. Not. Committed

14:54

any crime many flight day and got apparently

14:56

he didn't fit. I'm not morning because he.

14:58

He makes he does actually say. That they

15:00

hadn't been fatal day enough why he

15:02

asked to feed them at that point

15:04

because he been a whale day so

15:06

I don't think that would make any

15:08

difference of him been we'll night. I

15:10

don't think that chickens have are. Multiple

15:12

you know and and sometimes there's i

15:15

would like downside to and cats as

15:17

well. They're fairly. Fairly Who

15:19

who knows the I just think. It.

15:21

Would be too risky for him. For

15:24

a it's a very quiet street. where have

15:26

you I don't have you been to Milan

15:29

place but his his the end there's a

15:31

leak it's not as it's not. A

15:33

drive through roads. It's are you there?

15:35

You go there and otherwise you wouldn't.

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Have something which is known as a better way to do.

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We continue bear with me well I take

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18:45

Have some memories I love from

18:47

the sides. And.

18:51

One of them rather than usual

18:54

beverage. I remember seeing the

18:56

books. Or. Of

18:58

the further I walked around on the part

19:00

of the higher saw the entire or sub.sure

19:02

that. Because I've received several

19:05

times. A that's what

19:07

are Huge collection of the a

19:09

lot of the Bad Teeth fight

19:11

books and says not just the

19:13

Odds vulgar sets. Of stuff. And.

19:16

In your Last Podcast. This

19:19

the winner of his name is mentioned.

19:22

That. He was a bookseller are used

19:24

to go to that second hand bookshop.

19:27

On day or so why i

19:29

do bestowed on buses when room.

19:32

Or this since it was mentioned

19:34

I thought ah yes, she's obviously

19:36

bought a lot of his books

19:39

from there and said saw was

19:41

one item the eight. One aspect

19:43

that I noticed noted. The

19:45

second. Was. To do with

19:47

the chickens. No. I'm

19:50

not sure how it was done. That

19:53

when you will indicate the kitchen area

19:55

of I was. There was like

19:57

a hole in the wall. The

20:00

kinda cage com again so that the

20:02

chickens could be. I'm in the garden.

20:05

Did. They could also come in and

20:07

and in an interest for somebody indicates

20:10

that he said putting the breakfast or

20:12

something a rather unusual set up. That.

20:15

Such a very clear memory.

20:17

I pop up his father's.

20:20

So. Afraid for the comment came back

20:22

oh well. When he was arrested he

20:24

asked if it is chickens say it

20:26

aloud forget I I I knew about

20:28

the just inside of certain Sunday. Or

20:31

obvious about somebody was very and

20:33

service that are seconds to create

20:35

a structure coming into your kitchen

20:37

where. To construct: Come in and

20:40

say hello. There.

20:42

Say probably I have been a Vinci's

20:44

you haven't heard that so it's on

20:47

my pitching which is extra content. I

20:49

go through all the microfilm off the

20:51

newspaper articles from the time now I

20:53

had known from the to site and

20:56

and whenever it will I think I

20:58

mean we started barking when I think

21:00

you guys Monte doesn't t. We'd

21:03

been war and the key with highly

21:05

litigious. the office be knew he was

21:07

the prime suspect on the only suspect

21:09

that to be extremely careful and he

21:11

had a history of basically taking people

21:13

to court over all sorts of things.

21:15

and I had known that there's been.

21:18

A issue with and this

21:20

actually. Book. Come up

21:22

in a letter it is yet to you've

21:24

yet to hear. Em he

21:26

had a legal battle with normally when

21:28

drum who was his friends. But.

21:31

He got him to boot.

21:33

Combined that his thesis. And

21:36

kick. Them to

21:38

court because apparently wasn't done

21:40

properly. On. Their

21:43

assignments. I can smile going

21:45

see Matt into area. Had to go to

21:47

the every single page in the microfilm. With

21:49

each not distinct paper beach edition

21:52

of the paper and stumbled across.

21:55

Am the article where they

21:57

did Sheriff was giving his.

22:00

A verdict if you like

22:02

on this piece of. Kit.

22:06

Carson. Sorry. Ronnie

22:08

when drum. Trying. To get the

22:10

money often because in paid for it and then

22:12

Kit harrison on with tend to suing him for

22:15

not having done it and if is it's it's.

22:17

A fascinating read. Because

22:20

the share of fats with point site. I

22:23

will Intelligent and articulate and

22:25

oldest he's he's impressed by

22:27

Kit Hearth and but still

22:29

thinks I. Think. It's us or

22:31

a concern is an award when

22:33

we're the other boobs. Almost nothing

22:35

but this ridiculous. Case

22:37

had come to court Some such are you

22:40

know, a reputable bookbinder, but they had a

22:42

huge falling out. And. Indeed,

22:44

he did this did. His book

22:46

collection was extremely valuable. I can't

22:48

remember how many thousands of paint

22:51

the bearing in mind the property

22:53

was bought for I think. Sixteen.

22:56

Thousand Pines. On

22:59

day did the books for what this

23:01

is on the divorce a part of

23:03

the evidence but that the books were

23:05

a huge. Value of money for

23:08

that time because it causes

23:10

equivalent of sixteen thousand pounds

23:12

with inflation. I think these.

23:14

Days would be you know I, I,

23:16

I did work is Siren I do

23:18

you mentioned somewhere but at the newest

23:20

thing was like hundred grand. Who you're

23:23

right about that the books misses his

23:25

study and says the room the he

23:27

didn't allow Brenda to go in. she

23:29

wasn't allowed to touch his books and

23:31

is mentioned in the evidence of. Things

23:34

in statement from someone who had passed

23:37

away. that deed. Entered that

23:39

room because they'd. Gone.

23:42

So far wedding dress, sickness, or gotten a

23:44

detailed she's getting she couldn't believe she'd been

23:46

allowed in this room with all these precious

23:48

book. So this is it. A room that

23:50

you were in with. All these

23:52

books. Ny Manson. It's.

23:54

Probably exactly the same.

23:58

Right? know? What?

24:01

A strange man. It

24:05

was strange can ask anna and know

24:07

that wanted to balance in gori bit.

24:11

Just. Is. A. Guest

24:13

paint a picture for for listeners.

24:15

Can you talk history to the

24:17

I know? when you're giving evidence,

24:19

rustbelt, factual things. Can.

24:22

You tell me what it was like as you know as

24:24

a young man. Early in the

24:26

job. What it was like

24:28

stepping in to that room. On the

24:30

site the you are faced with and what was

24:33

going through your head of the time. Size.

24:37

Answer.over the years a

24:39

number of times and

24:41

I'm. The

24:43

best way I can describe his.

24:46

I was brought up a Christian. I

24:49

was and boys brigade. We. Were

24:51

and we were in the church. While.

24:54

I was in Boys Breed Life Boys before

24:56

that. Just really. every

24:58

Sunday. So.

25:02

I the way I dealt with it

25:04

in the piece of course. The

25:08

minute you join the police were gonna

25:10

be you're gonna intent or dead bodies

25:13

and one not necessarily mother's but you're

25:15

gonna come to the bones. So.

25:18

With my Christian beliefs I

25:20

always salute or that bought

25:22

it. As just a shell.

25:25

An. Essential part I'd

25:27

gone. Know.

25:30

Dot. Helped me. Enormously.

25:34

Even as a young Bobby, you know,

25:37

I think between the age of sixteen and

25:39

nineteen when it was a cadet. Never

25:43

really got near. I did see

25:45

a high court judge place to

25:47

block flopper. Discovered every bought was

25:49

about was terribly impressive. Bought

25:51

two from the aged ninety. Nord

25:53

was obvious and kind of swing

25:55

bodies. Sometimes. Dangling the

25:58

end of a rule sometimes. On

26:00

the ground. I

26:02

never came on a murder victim.

26:06

But. Say. I

26:08

know. Real problem. Though that

26:11

was the way I tackled it. And

26:13

yes, say that was an awful lot of

26:15

blood. In

26:17

the Brenda case, But.

26:19

By that time I I had

26:22

had quite an experience of the

26:24

slot in the next thing. I

26:26

bet suddenly you're the professional.

26:29

And as you go, there is a

26:31

professional. You've got to set everything else

26:34

aside. And just concentrate

26:36

on during the absolute. Best

26:39

professional job that you can't

26:41

You can't let your personal

26:43

feelings. Offensive. And.

26:47

We had a child. Is

26:49

involved and because I've had to i

26:52

children of my or another boy. the

26:54

girl. I'm. Not

26:57

motivated you even more than one

26:59

hundred percent that you would expect

27:01

a policeman. Any rate, I

27:04

was so motivated, you know? In

27:07

those. Child Abuse child

27:09

not the type case. I'm.

27:13

Sure I caught. A

27:15

cold. I could tell you all

27:17

sorts of stories. Sweden

27:20

steaks. I support our stories.

27:22

do. You think you ever

27:24

this you got a stories you

27:26

know I am. Lucky

27:30

there though, you know not not.

27:33

new whole you. That you

27:35

have that you know. I began my

27:37

career when I was a teenager and

27:39

their. I. Had to

27:41

ten. A double

27:44

Fico. When

27:46

I was. A

27:48

guy was seventeen. News

27:50

just before Christmas. Not without a I'm

27:52

is it seems you beat been very

27:55

professional. And they're. Going.

27:58

There and. Can. The

28:00

and he's my witnesses and calling my

28:02

news editor to. You. Know to see

28:04

I've got of go all the information the need

28:06

for for the story and news. You

28:08

know when she just said are you alright and

28:11

I burst out crying she says bit tamer say

28:13

if is a moment after By was able to

28:15

hold it together. Was asked

28:17

to talk as if. It. Was

28:20

a car accident? It was all mean

28:22

Ninety Seven. I understand

28:24

you know of course you at and

28:26

in your profession you know we have.

28:29

To. Numb yourself to as I have had to

28:31

at times as well. and for me when

28:33

I have seen a bodies almost like it's

28:35

not real it feels like a mana when

28:37

almost at a. In the in that way. But.

28:41

Walking into that seen in that part

28:43

of town. Learning.

28:45

That who she was. It

28:47

It wasn't your usual murder scene.

28:49

It wasn't the usual demographic or

28:51

area or you know or and

28:53

level of violence. And.

28:55

The imagining we just need it really stand

28:57

out. Of

29:04

the zero to answer. Or

29:07

not server the other. I

29:09

have been so well trained up by

29:12

these colleagues I've mentioned before and I

29:14

just felt. The

29:16

Get. The Buck stops here.

29:19

I've got to get on with it and

29:22

do the absolute best. But I was part

29:24

of a team of course. I.

29:28

Remember telling a bribe the caught a

29:30

cute. I can remember.

29:32

All the stuff that where they

29:35

are thrown the a discussion bureau.

29:39

Of he said either. Could you remember

29:41

the people? Director Christopher How To Subsides

29:43

know. Although the. Bride

29:46

Kennedy was clearly wonder that because she

29:49

was the to smuggle, he was a

29:51

detective. Sergeant. What

29:53

strong? Jaw at least I remember

29:55

one the I affect the felt it even

29:57

easier just to say no I don't remember.

30:00

He. Didn't earn. It will

30:02

you. you work as part of the team. But

30:05

you knew. I guess you you knew

30:07

arriving their. This

30:10

this this is. Are extremely.

30:13

Violent Murder. I mean all mergers violence

30:15

no matter how it's done. I guess.

30:19

And. But extremely violent And it

30:21

was of the utmost importance that you

30:23

did your job to the opposite best

30:25

of your ability to play that parts.

30:28

In just testing done. Their.

30:33

Job. Was

30:36

a very crime scene. Sunday.

30:39

There was no rush to finish it. auto

30:42

I was aware of the postmortem was about

30:44

quarter past seven. Or so

30:46

there was a reasonable time. That.

30:48

As A Tool Day Alex

30:51

Prentice. It

30:53

was the two bedrooms the point of

30:56

entry in the what the small smallest.

30:58

The smaller of the two bedrooms

31:00

and in the room particularly the

31:02

room. Where. Brenda was

31:05

lying. That was.

31:07

that was ninety eight percent

31:09

of my attention. That.crime Scene.

31:12

And I left the rest of the crew. Overwhelmed

31:15

experienced in dealing with major crimes

31:17

to wander around and see if

31:19

they could find a the sake

31:22

of significant sales Real. Did

31:26

you have to? Look

31:28

far a potential weapon. It. Kit.

31:31

Carson size or anything like that.

31:33

Neither the players they're not really

31:35

be by role but wouldn't be

31:37

my rule over society together. didn't

31:39

spare some. They find the stuff

31:41

you tell them which samples to

31:44

take are you know to back

31:46

out date with virile. Highly experienced

31:48

at the crew. you know, the

31:50

fingerprint mom, the photographer, The

31:52

Detective Sergeant to in

31:54

Child's Education Bureau. The

31:58

been to so many. Seems need know

32:01

what to look for. And

32:03

they would go and find things the draw

32:05

my attention to something if a sample needed

32:07

to be taken. And

32:09

I was the. I

32:11

have a seat at I hate using

32:14

the board expert. I

32:16

remember reading a story about to.

32:20

An eminent pathologist whose name escapes

32:22

me at the moment. Being.

32:24

Asked and the witness box if he

32:27

could define expert. On

32:29

the tongue in cheek I suppose.

32:32

The like me and the what the spoke

32:34

to teach the let you know would you

32:36

try to bring a light, the light nesbitt

32:38

respectable lightness into a situation. He

32:41

said. An

32:43

expert to someone learning more than

32:46

more. About less

32:48

and less eventually knowing everything about

32:50

nothing. Have.

32:53

You heard that one before? I haven't

32:55

heard. I've never played to be an

32:57

expert, Forget it soon as you claim

32:59

to be an extra death and you've

33:01

got a lot to learn that say

33:04

that the computer is up there. don't

33:06

they don't There's always more to the

33:08

had played so these guys knew what

33:10

to look for. So. The. Left

33:12

need to concentrate on taking the

33:14

samples. Of course put

33:16

your there with a fingerprint expert. And

33:19

something needs to be don't like on the window

33:21

though. The point of entry. I

33:23

had to remove fibers. He couldn't

33:25

ask for fingerprints until I had.

33:28

I was sure that every

33:31

little find burrow that might

33:33

be presence was retrieved. So.

33:36

He took over my shoulder about look at

33:38

over his shoulder. So you're working very much

33:40

as a team. And just.spoiling

33:42

the evidence for each other.

33:45

I. Was surprised that the actual

33:48

window, the actual intact upper

33:50

part of the window. With

33:52

I didn't expect to see that in court.

33:55

I'm guessing that was a prop. The usual thing

33:57

to happen is to up that that is a

33:59

piece of. Then he would most

34:01

definitely definitely squirrel out a member.

34:03

Alex. Prentice. Asking me.

34:06

For. At the end of course listening

34:09

to listening view your podcast you

34:11

think I could the onset that

34:13

different like. Know that spoke

34:15

to happen Anyway he said. Why

34:18

did you take the bed sheet? And.

34:22

Of it never occurred to me to say

34:24

well in case the person that committed this

34:26

crime has left three said that it's on

34:28

the bed sheet. Of course,

34:30

I've been away from the love for almost

34:33

thirty years. I was no longer thinking aloud.

34:35

You know I was spotted or memory. And.

34:38

Common sense. And.

34:40

They. Try not to say the

34:42

wrong thing. So rude

34:44

I say dawn. Stocked.

34:47

Up there are better sit on. It

34:49

was part of the crime scene. While.

34:52

Every item on Not Bad was part of

34:54

the crime scene with the all ended up

34:56

in box. Know.

34:59

And love I love that to. At

35:02

this point in your life, you're retired.

35:05

And. Is taken forty five years to get

35:07

here, but highly important is it for

35:09

you to. This case is finally heard

35:11

in court. In. Retrospect, that

35:14

case was the highlight of my

35:16

please Korea might be some forensic

35:18

cells could be that. I

35:21

loved every moment of my

35:23

involvement to the. A

35:27

knife or a justice to be done. Even.

35:30

After all the time, Must. Be

35:32

incredible. Yes,

35:35

Very much so. I hope that

35:37

bugger dies in jail. Or

35:40

not too soon either. And

35:43

pretty sour said that the inevitability the

35:45

he will die. In jail because

35:47

unless you live a hundred and

35:49

twenty something that that said that

35:51

is the likelihood were you ever

35:53

And any doubts. As. To

35:56

who had killed Brenda. I

36:02

was aware of what the

36:04

laboratory we're finding. It.

36:07

I was relying on

36:09

hearing from other police

36:12

officers. What? The

36:14

detectives were finding. Sure

36:17

when all is that was put together. I

36:22

was in no doubt whatsoever.

36:24

The it was Christopher Bars and

36:27

martyr Brenda Cage. Within

36:29

weeks. That.

36:31

It was just so unfortunate. That.

36:35

We we did not get the evidence,

36:37

She was too smart. I

36:39

think that said, summarized, he

36:42

was too smart. To

36:44

do got back in nineteen seventy

36:46

eight. We heard about Brand

36:48

his work and actually. Didn't vote for

36:50

him to conclude a microscope acting

36:52

such. As from her very

36:54

different reasons that, hell. Significant

36:57

or poetic is it for you. The it

36:59

with the signs. The

37:02

ended up. Catching him

37:04

out. And. Find the he'd

37:06

been Sonic Youth against the Police whole time.

37:12

Very significant. I

37:14

think it's great. Absolutely great. I've

37:16

i've won are going to be

37:19

square and. For. A

37:21

day fit Think about this very

37:23

sad day when the verdict was

37:25

was pronounced. But. When

37:28

you when you look back on the

37:30

case. but

37:32

was a bit. More

37:35

was the Dna. A

37:39

expect me some witnesses who were

37:41

speaking about the threat to kill.

37:45

Some other evidence. Being

37:48

received as far back as Nineteen

37:50

Seventy Eight and we we had

37:52

via your podcasts. I'm

37:54

the reasons why. Alex

38:02

printer sad to say he betty saw

38:04

the if the crime happens yesterday instead

38:06

of and Nineteen Seventy Eight the by

38:09

the be dealt with and a different

38:11

way. I would like to think

38:13

so too, But.

38:18

Witnesses to have said something. And

38:20

ninety seven to eight that was not safe

38:23

until much later, on a site that was

38:25

one of the difficulties of. Know

38:27

that we did tier in court

38:30

of the threats. Taken with

38:32

the Dna, take it with a paid

38:34

player, can taken with a few other

38:36

circumstances. It was a

38:38

brilliant unfair that. And I'm

38:41

just debates. It was

38:43

the highlight of my Please Send

38:45

Forensic Science Korea. I think

38:47

I'm a big pat on the back

38:49

Care from everyone for you. From Federal

38:51

the you played. That. Miniscule.

38:55

Flak of pain and particular. In

38:58

a vacuum extract which he

39:00

explained so clearly better something

39:03

is tiny is that. Can.

39:06

Have such a big impact. You.

39:09

Know for past decades on this

39:11

remarkable. It was

39:13

a great case to be involved and them

39:15

thanks to everyone else at speed of thought.

39:21

And that was that. It's unusual to

39:23

be able to interview. A frames

39:25

It officer in such detail on. For

39:27

one to be so enthusiastic about. The. Case

39:30

he had the freedom to speak.

39:32

Now of course being retired and

39:34

it's clear the Case has stuck

39:36

out and school to become all

39:38

these years. Thank.

39:40

You for listening and once again I'd be so

39:42

grateful if you could show your appreciation with a

39:44

few clicks. Key reason v the Cds. And

39:47

if you want to hear more interviews like

39:49

this, Head to the Petri and

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