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0:52

I'm Melissa Harris-Perry, and this is The

0:54

Takeaway. Thanks for starting your week with us.

0:57

Late last month, we announced some sad

1:00

news to you, our takeaway listening

1:02

community.

1:03

After 15 years as the only

1:06

daily national radio show and

1:08

podcast produced by WNYC,

1:11

the executives here at New York Public

1:13

Radio have decided to cancel the

1:16

takeaway.

1:17

Our very last episode will air

1:19

on June 2nd. And

1:22

as part of this cancellation, WNYC

1:24

chose not to reassign any

1:26

member of our fantastic

1:28

team of radio makers and sonic

1:31

storytellers.

1:32

But listen, we just can't

1:34

let this all go down without taking

1:37

some time to showcase the

1:39

truly extraordinary team of professionals

1:42

who've been bringing you the stories that

1:44

you value

1:45

and the shows that you love.

1:47

So for the next two weeks before

1:49

the final episode, we're gonna be highlighting

1:51

some of the work of our fabulous producers.

1:55

We're calling it our Producer Appreciation

1:57

Weeks. And trust me, you do not

1:59

want to.

1:59

to miss these episodes.

2:02

We're starting it all off today with our producer,

2:05

Katarina Barton. Hey Melissa,

2:07

great to be here behind the mic with you. Yes,

2:10

now you're one of the four people

2:12

on our current team who've been here at The Takeaway

2:14

the longest.

2:16

I mean, I have nothing on Jay and Vince.

2:19

They've been here for 15 years at WNYC.

2:22

But yeah, I started back in January 2020 as

2:24

an intern at The Takeaway and around the

2:27

same time that our line producer, Jackie Martin,

2:29

also started.

2:30

And then I came back in 2021 and

2:32

started working with you and this amazing

2:34

team.

2:35

I totally remember that. And it is

2:37

an amazing team. And Katarina, you're definitely

2:40

one of the stars. I hope you know just

2:42

how much I've relied on your sophisticated

2:44

news judgment, your careful research, your

2:47

clutch writing, your flawless editing.

2:50

And one of the most important roles you've played for this team

2:53

has been articulating our mission and

2:55

helping all of us to think about the reasons why

2:58

we make

2:58

this show. I really appreciate

3:01

that. And I think what I have

3:03

loved most about working with you and producing

3:06

for The Takeaway is that we cover daily news,

3:08

but we also cover stories that you might not

3:10

be hearing in other places. And

3:13

we also speak to people on the ground about

3:15

how issues are impacting them. And

3:18

that's what we did with the residents of Gordon

3:20

Plaza.

3:21

I love this story. And our

3:23

listeners about it. Well, I started

3:25

talking to the residents of Gordon Plaza last

3:27

year in April. Gordon

3:30

Plaza is a subdivision in New Orleans.

3:33

It was established in the late 1970s,

3:35

and it was built and advertised as a place

3:37

for middle and low income, predominantly

3:39

black families, to create new

3:42

opportunities to help them buy into

3:44

the American dream. But

3:46

that American dream soon became

3:48

a nightmare. Exactly. What

3:51

many of these families didn't know was that this

3:53

land used

3:54

to be an old landfill, and

3:56

it was just a general dumping ground, and all

3:58

of this waste was leaching. into the soil.

4:01

We're being told, you know, we're living on top of a

4:04

toxic waste landfill. And we

4:06

weren't unaware of this when we purchased our homes.

4:09

We are the second

4:11

highest cancer-causing neighborhood

4:14

in the state of Louisiana.

4:19

But it wasn't until 1994

4:21

when the EPA tested the land and

4:23

designated it as a toxic, superfund

4:25

site. Which means people are not supposed

4:28

to be living there, right? Yeah, I remember

4:30

I spoke with Wilma Subra. She is a

4:32

technical advisor to the Louisiana

4:34

Environmental Action Network. And she had been

4:36

working with the residents in the 80s and

4:39

90s trying to get the EPA to test the land. And

4:41

just her description of it was kind of

4:44

shocking. So then you had benzene,

4:46

toluene, zylene, ethyl benzene,

4:48

the volatile

4:49

organics that are known as suspected to be

4:51

cancer-causing agents. Polynuclei

4:53

aromatic hydrocarbons. And

4:56

then you also said the heavy metals,

4:58

mercury, lead, zinc.

5:01

All of these things were combined in

5:03

that landfill that this

5:05

entire subdivision was built on

5:07

top of. And you could actually

5:10

sit in people's yards. And

5:12

just with your hands, you could dig the

5:14

grass and the very shallow

5:17

surface soil out and

5:19

get to the waste. So the exposure

5:22

was right there. Ooh, that

5:24

list of chemicals. Now,

5:27

this story is from last year, but there have been

5:29

some updates? Yeah, there have been some updates.

5:32

And the city has moved forward with trying to relocate

5:34

the residents. But first, I think

5:36

there's a lot of value in listening back to

5:38

this segment before the city took any

5:40

action. And hear what the Gordon

5:43

Plaza residents have gone through in their

5:45

own words.

5:49

My name is Jesse Giovanni

5:51

Perkins. I moved to Gordon Plaza

5:54

in May of 1988.

5:58

Jesse bought a house for his mother and himself. And

6:01

he told us he was, quote, full of happiness

6:03

to be able to buy it out right without a mortgage. But

6:06

he wasn't aware the home was built on

6:08

toxic land. My name is Marilyn

6:11

Amar, and I'm a resident

6:13

of Gordon Plaza. My

6:16

home was sold to

6:19

me by the city of New Orleans

6:21

built on the top of the Agriculture

6:23

Street landfill.

6:25

Marilyn first moved into the apartment complexes

6:28

in the Gordon Plaza subdivision. And then

6:31

bought a home there. I moved in

6:33

this area in 1970, not

6:37

knowing this was a

6:39

former dump site or

6:41

landfill. That

6:43

was not told to me when I moved

6:46

into the apartment complex and lived

6:48

there for years.

6:49

And then bought the home in

6:51

Gordon Plaza, which is just

6:54

one block difference. That

6:56

was not told to me about being

6:59

a landfill where

7:01

chemicals were dumped. Both

7:03

Jesse and Marilyn have been outspoken

7:06

advocates for their community over the past

7:08

three decades. And they've sought

7:10

help from the city

7:11

for relocation expenses. But

7:13

they just don't feel like anyone

7:15

is listening. I'm under the impression

7:17

that they don't really care. We're not

7:19

a priority. Anytime you say

7:22

you care about your people and the quality of life

7:24

and public safety, then what is a bigger

7:26

public safety issue, a quality

7:28

life issue than what we are being faced

7:30

with?

7:31

But what else does it take? We don't live near a

7:33

superfund site. We live on top of

7:36

a superfund site. Jesse

7:38

told the takeaway about the steps he takes to protect

7:40

himself, his neighbors and his family

7:42

while doing everyday things like yard

7:45

work and mowing the lawn.

7:46

I do the lawn around here, all my

7:48

neighbors. I just do it. I do

7:50

the entire block. So when I'm doing it, I used

7:53

to wear long sleeves. But I

7:55

make sure when I'm stirring up the grass

7:57

and the dust and everything else that's in there that

7:59

I have a mask on. I was wearing a mask way

8:01

before COVID came out because I

8:03

didn't want to have all of that stuff going into

8:05

my lungs and

8:07

Possibly exposing me, you know,

8:09

oh, I mean there's different transmission rates through the skin

8:11

from the pores, you know Do ingestion

8:14

and just breathing? So I try

8:16

to limit the amount of dust particles that I

8:18

breathe when I do the lawn Jesse also

8:20

wanted to put up swings and a slide in his backyard

8:23

so his granddaughter could play But he was

8:25

concerned about exposing her to toxins in the

8:27

soil. We try as

8:29

best as possible to give her as less

8:32

contact with especially

8:35

Bare spots in the yard. I try to mitigate those

8:37

things, you know, if I got to put something over in cover

8:39

it But then I had my yard tested about three

8:42

years ago and Lad contamination

8:44

was I think over 1200 parts per million

8:47

And I think that is more or less designated for

8:49

a non-play area and I'm like my yard is an extension

8:51

of my home So it should be a play area. So

8:53

we really really really became concerned for For

8:56

her because of her, you know development and

8:58

growth. So we did was

9:00

we put a we put a trampoline up and

9:03

She goes and bounced on that and she's

9:05

about four feet above the ground and we feel comfortable

9:07

with that Not totally, but you know

9:10

a little piece of mind Even as they try

9:12

their best to keep themselves and their families

9:14

safe illness and cancer have

9:16

become routine realities for

9:18

them According to a 2019 report

9:21

from the Louisiana tumor registry Gordon

9:23

Plaza's census track has the second highest

9:26

cancer rate in the state

9:28

Although the report also says it's hard to prove

9:30

links between cancer and certain

9:32

exposures

9:33

But Jesse has plenty of stories

9:35

Well two of my board members

9:38

one lady's about 78 years old and the others

9:40

about 72 They both

9:42

are in remission from cancer. We

9:44

have two people that are unofficial officers

9:47

Organized with us also they both are

9:50

in remission from cancer. Also, we've

9:52

lost

9:53

Two people right down the street from

9:55

where I live for multiple cancers

9:58

including brain cancer and bone

10:00

cancer. And right

10:02

around the corner, a 16-year-old

10:04

girl died from leukemia. And

10:07

next door to that young lady, a

10:09

63-year-old lady passed from

10:13

multiple myeloma. One

10:15

of the ladies who, in remission

10:17

from cancer, her husband died about

10:20

six months ago to colon cancer.

10:22

One of the ladies that's in remission from cancer,

10:25

her husband is currently battling colon

10:28

cancer. One of the other neighbors,

10:30

his husband, he's on his third

10:33

trial of chemo and radiation.

10:35

So it's very widespread throughout the community. And

10:38

Marilyn has experience with this too. I'm

10:40

a bivir breast cancer survivor.

10:43

I have respiratory problems. I

10:46

have skin ailments

10:47

from living on this

10:49

toxic landfill. And it's not only

10:52

cancer. Five people within

10:54

a one block span of where I live, including

10:56

my mother, develop dementia.

10:59

I guess people would say, well, what does dementia have to

11:01

do with, you know, these carcinogens? Well,

11:03

arsenic, from what the research that

11:06

I've done,

11:07

is linked somehow

11:09

to dementia.

11:11

As the Louisiana Tumor Registry report noted,

11:13

these things are hard to prove,

11:15

but Jesse and Marilyn, they're quite convinced.

11:17

Well, my children grew

11:20

up here, but when they finished

11:22

college, they left Louisiana.

11:25

My son was ill for years. He

11:28

had to drop out of college for

11:31

some time. He

11:33

had to have different types of surgeries

11:36

because he had stomach problems.

11:38

And part of his intestines

11:40

had to be removed because

11:43

of living on this chemical

11:45

landfill dump site.

11:48

And he had to drop out

11:50

of school, go back when he

11:52

was well, drop out again, go

11:54

back. But when he finally graduated

11:57

from college, he left Louisiana. all

12:00

together. He comes to

12:02

visit. He cannot stay over two days.

12:05

He gets ill. So

12:08

my children live away from

12:11

Louisiana, and they live

12:13

away from New Orleans.

12:15

And so they very seldom come back

12:17

to this area.

12:18

Now, some people might be listening to this and

12:21

asking, why not just move? But

12:23

you have to remember, this was a community built for

12:25

elderly and low-income families in the 1980s. And

12:28

the land has depreciated in value because

12:30

of its status as a Superfund site. The 54

12:34

families left in this development, many

12:36

feel trapped, but they continue to

12:39

fight to be relocated.

12:40

I can't afford to leave. I'm

12:43

retired on a limited income.

12:47

No one is going to give me a loan

12:49

to buy another home. Plus,

12:51

I'm a senior citizen. I

12:54

can't afford to start a new mortgage.

12:57

And if I could, I would

12:59

not be here. People question that.

13:02

Well, if you know what's there, why don't you just leave?

13:05

If it were that simple, we'd all be gone. It's

13:08

much more complicated than that. Jesse

13:11

says even if he could afford to leave, there's

13:13

still a matter of principle. Let's

13:15

just say it's not just about the money, but

13:18

it's going to take money to make this situation

13:20

right for us.

13:22

It is. There's nothing else that's going

13:24

to do it. And the city has the

13:26

money. And that is this sad

13:28

irony of this whole situation.

13:31

We don't want to die here. We're going

13:33

to die one day. All of us are going to die. But

13:36

I want to die because my city

13:38

neglected to do the right thing to remove me from

13:40

a toxic wasteland. And

13:44

the residents have called this a prime

13:46

example of environmental injustice

13:48

and racism. That's right. Here's

13:51

one last clip from Marilyn. We

13:53

are Black families. These homes

13:55

were sold to low and moderate

13:58

income Black families. This

14:00

is why we've gone through six mayors.

14:04

This is why we're still here. And

14:07

the fight was really strong

14:09

back in 1994, but

14:12

the people just gave up, died out

14:14

and gave up. Now, since

14:17

Hurricane Katrina, we started

14:19

up again with the fight and we're not giving up

14:22

because we want to live a quality

14:24

of life, not on this toxic

14:26

landfill. And we want future

14:29

generations not to have to live on this

14:31

landfill. So that's why

14:34

we're still in the fight and we're

14:36

not giving up, but I do believe because

14:39

we're all black families. And that is

14:41

one of the reasons why we're still here.

14:43

Now, KB earlier you said that

14:46

there are some updates. Yeah, Melissa, those

14:48

families are still fighting.

14:50

Last year, there was some movement in that fight.

14:52

And in June, the New Orleans city council allocated $35

14:56

million to buy the Gordon Plaza

14:58

homes from residents and pay for

15:00

their moving and relocation expenses.

15:03

So that means there's some good news?

15:05

Well, yes, but it's still an ongoing

15:07

process. The residents are still negotiating

15:10

with the city council. And as you can imagine,

15:12

there's a lot of bureaucratic red tape

15:15

around how taxpayer money can be spent.

15:18

So it's a slow process, but

15:20

I talked to Marilyn and Jesse recently, and

15:23

they are hopeful that this nearly three

15:25

decade fight may be finally drawing

15:27

to an end.

15:28

This segment is one that we

15:31

were really excited about

15:36

because

15:39

it kind of accidentally became a segment

15:42

about lady truckers. Lady

15:44

truckers. I mean, this

15:46

is like a cult classic favorite

15:48

segment for me. I loved hearing from

15:50

them. Me too. I loved hearing

15:53

a different side of the trucking industry than you

15:55

normally hear about. And this story

15:57

started out as a pitch about the supply chain

15:59

shortage.

15:59

and the shortage of truck drivers during

16:02

the beginning of the pandemic, but I ended

16:04

up reaching out to two lady truckers

16:06

and they had some great insights to share.

16:09

And just a side note, shout out to the

16:11

amazing control room for the music and

16:13

sound effects you're about to hear.

16:17

Trucking is an overwhelmingly

16:19

male industry, but that is slowly

16:21

changing. A 2019 survey

16:25

for women in trucking shows that 10%

16:27

of over-the-road, or

16:44

long-haul, truckers are women, and that's

16:46

up from 7.8% the year before. Yeah,

16:50

here we go again. Can you imagine having to be

16:52

at work all day and listening to this beeping

16:54

sound?

16:57

This is Gretchen Waters. She's an over-the-road

16:59

truck driver and travels all over the country making

17:02

deliveries. Right now, she's hauling

17:04

dog food from Joplin, Missouri to Atlanta,

17:06

Georgia.

17:07

Now, that beeping sound is a motion

17:10

detector, and it goes off any time

17:12

a car cuts her off. But

17:14

despite that regular annoyance, Gretchen

17:16

genuinely enjoys driving trucks.

17:19

I really like it. It's a

17:22

job that you get paid

17:24

the same no matter what you look like, no

17:26

matter what age you are. All I

17:28

really want is for you to be on time,

17:31

communicate effectively, keep all the

17:33

tires pointed in the right direction.

17:36

And that is not hard to do, you know? It

17:38

really isn't.

17:39

You got a breaker one, nine, this here's a rubber

17:42

duck. You got a copy on me, big

17:44

fan, come on. Boy,

17:46

you have 10-4, big fan for sure.

17:48

Trucking is not just about working on the road,

17:50

it's about living on the road. It's

17:53

kind of like working from home in

17:55

that you're living in this

17:58

little studio apartment situation.

17:59

I personally, I sleep up on the top

18:02

bunk for safety. If somebody were to break

18:04

into the truck in the middle of the night, I would much prefer to

18:06

be up above where they might not be expecting me

18:08

and where I can try to deal with the situation

18:10

from above. And I have a piece

18:13

of like finished plywood on the bottom bunk which

18:15

allows me to cook, allows my dog space

18:17

to be, allows me space to roll

18:19

out my yoga mat and work out and

18:21

work on some of my arts and crafts projects and stuff.

18:24

I love that Gretchen

18:26

is doing yoga and arts and

18:28

crafts on the road.

18:34

But

18:39

supply chain delays and worker shortages

18:41

not only affect consumers, they also

18:44

impact workflow for drivers like Gretchen.

18:47

It just means that it's a lot harder to manage

18:49

the personal aspects of my life. It's

18:51

harder to manage my time. Because

18:53

this job really is a lot about discipline

18:55

and time management. You know, there really

18:58

are only so many hours in a day to be able

19:00

to live out all different parts of who

19:02

you are as a person. And

19:05

that has to get worked into a lot

19:08

of unknown variables which already includes

19:11

construction traffic, urban traffic,

19:14

breakdowns and equipment. There's

19:17

just, you know, out here you just really

19:19

have to be ready for literally

19:21

anything.

19:28

And while she does love her job, she acknowledges

19:30

it can be draining. A part of the reason that there

19:33

is a truck driver shortage is that this job is

19:35

not for everybody. It really requires an

19:37

incredible amount of personal endurance and stamina.

19:40

A lot of solid support

19:43

in your home life. It really is

19:45

a big deal to have a, you

19:47

know, stable situation at home. I know a lot

19:49

of people get off the road because,

19:51

you know, they cannot be present for what's happening

19:54

at home which is just as important to them as

19:56

what's going on out here. But the

19:57

sacrifice that truck drivers make is...

20:00

that you are never anywhere and you're

20:02

also kind of never really at home. And

20:04

that's a big reason why a lot of people can't

20:07

stay in the industry and why it's hard to attract new,

20:09

new people.

20:17

Ruling hours requiring stamina, endurance,

20:19

and sacrifice just might be part

20:21

of the story of the truck driver shortage.

20:31

All right, so of course you know the classic

20:33

car talk. We're doing some truck

20:36

talk. Right. And I love

20:38

the thought of Gretchen in her truck, reflecting

20:41

on her job and sending us voice memos.

20:44

And in this segment, Melissa, you also spoke

20:47

with Jennifer Smith, a reporter at the

20:49

wall street journal and Tiara

20:51

Allen, also known as the sassy

20:53

trucker.

20:56

Now Tiara, you really are the sassy

20:58

trucker. I've seen you on Twitter and Instagram.

21:01

Talk to me a little bit about what it means to

21:03

be a woman and a good

21:06

looking young woman who is driving

21:09

trucks. Are people surprised when you get out

21:11

of the truck? Are they, are

21:13

they helpful and happy

21:15

or do you face discriminatory practices?

21:19

Well, me being a young female truck driver,

21:21

a lot of the people are surprised when I get out

21:23

the truck. And some people are very helpful.

21:26

Like sometimes when I'm at the shipper, getting

21:28

loaded and unloaded, they may offer to help

21:30

me back up the truck. Sometimes they

21:32

may even ask me, they would like to

21:34

buy me lunch. So with me, sometimes

21:37

I love that because I like the attention that comes

21:39

with it and the benefits. And

21:41

also I like how sometimes I'm at the fuel

21:43

station. They even come over to offer to pump my

21:45

gas. And since I do YouTube

21:48

and I share my stories along the

21:50

way, a lot of people from social media, they

21:52

notice me at the truck stop and say, hey, you're the sassy trucker.

21:55

I watch your videos all the time. I like how you

21:57

inspire other woman truckers to become truck drivers

21:59

as well.

21:59

I wonder, Teara, do you ever worry

22:02

about personal safety? As a

22:04

result of that, we were talking with another

22:07

woman driver who was talking about if someone were

22:09

to break in, for example. And so I just

22:11

wonder, when you're driving by yourself,

22:14

do you still feel secure? I

22:16

feel

22:16

secure because my truck has like

22:18

a little alarm on it, a button,

22:20

like it's called panic mode. It's in the back of the sweeper,

22:23

so if someone comes near the truck, it'll just go

22:25

off and it'll alarm my dispatchers

22:28

that there's someone in my truck. So that's

22:30

one thing that I do like about it. And also, I use the seatbelt

22:32

technique when you put the seatbelt around the door so someone

22:34

tries to get in, they won't be able to get inside of the truck. I

22:37

love it.

22:38

You thought about those things. Jen,

22:40

I'm wondering, in an industry

22:42

like trucking, where you

22:44

have such a high percentage of

22:46

men, very few women, and

22:49

we know that so many women have been pushed out of

22:51

the workforce during the COVID-19 pandemic,

22:53

if one of the things that's happening is

22:56

that trucking companies might actually be seeking to

22:58

recruit women. And if so, what

23:00

they're doing in order to make that possible?

23:03

Well, trucking companies have been trying to recruit

23:05

female drivers for some time. And

23:07

in part, that's because they tend to

23:09

have slightly better driving records, which

23:12

maybe

23:12

I don't know if Tierra has some thoughts on that.

23:16

But they've been pushing for a long time to try and get more

23:18

women in the industry. But for the reasons

23:21

that were outlined at the opening of the segment, you're

23:25

away from home a lot. And one of the reasons

23:27

women have been pushed out of the labor force during

23:29

the pandemic is because the lack of childcare.

23:32

So the pandemic is exposing issues

23:34

in the industry that have been happening for

23:36

decades. So I am

23:38

sure they would love to hire more women. And I

23:41

actually did speak with a young woman who had just

23:43

started trucking recently in the

23:45

last couple of months, and she loved it. So there

23:48

may be more folks like her and Tierra out there.

23:50

Well, Katarina, since we're all out here looking

23:52

for work, maybe Team Takeaway needs

23:54

to think about trucking as our next long

23:57

haul gig.

23:58

Oh, yeah. Takeaway trucking. And

24:01

one thing that wasn't in the original story,

24:04

but Gretchen shared with me, is that she listens

24:06

to public radio out there on the road

24:09

and also gave us a little shout out. So

24:12

my home radio station is

24:14

WUGA in

24:17

Athens, Georgia. I

24:19

listen to The Takeaway. It comes on

24:21

at 3 p.m. and

24:24

I listen online. One

24:27

thing I really like about my job is it allows

24:29

me to just really take in a lot of new

24:31

information. It's really

24:34

great having the freedom and

24:36

stress-free, pressure-free

24:39

situation in order to just be able to learn

24:41

new things and open my mind.

24:44

So I want to thank everybody who works

24:46

in public radio for all the

24:48

content that you produce and for

24:51

keeping me company out here on the road. Gretchen,

24:54

if you're out there and still listening,

24:56

thank you. We are so proud

24:59

to have kept you company.

25:02

You listen to The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry.

25:04

And today, we're drawing the curtains

25:06

back a bit and getting a little behind-the-scenes

25:09

look at how we make The Takeaway.

25:12

Still with me is one of our producers, Katarina

25:14

Barton.

25:15

Hey, MHP. It's KB here. And

25:18

I know that sometimes people don't like to

25:20

know how the sausage gets made, but hopefully

25:23

this will be a little fun insight into

25:26

The Takeaway team.

25:27

Oh, well, listen, we're not making sausage.

25:30

No animals were harmed in the making of this radio.

25:32

In fact, pups and kitties

25:35

and noisy neighborhood bird life make

25:37

pretty regular appearances in our morning

25:39

Zoom meetings. That's true. Your

25:41

dogs are often a current appearance.

25:44

And those pet-filled remote morning

25:46

meetings are where we pitch new ideas.

25:49

And it's where we give feedback on what we've

25:51

already aired.

25:53

Last June, during Pride Month, we'd already

25:55

produced many segments talking about

25:57

and with people in the LGBTQ community.

25:59

community. We had a

26:02

series called Aging While Queer and we talked

26:04

about the new queer rom-com Fire Island,

26:06

which was fire. And of

26:08

course we had our ongoing series Black

26:11

Queer Rising.

26:12

Right, and across all of it we

26:14

were using the word queer. And then

26:16

our executive assistant David Gable

26:19

kind of posed a bit of a challenge to our team.

26:21

I think we would take everyone on the takeaway

26:23

team and we are a very diverse team and

26:26

have them each write down the definition of queer

26:28

on a piece of paper and one by one read them we

26:30

would get wildly different answers.

26:33

So what does it mean? And

26:36

that's when it got really interesting because

26:39

we had all the questions just within

26:41

our team. What does queer mean to

26:43

folks from the Academy versus

26:45

Broadway, seasoned journalists

26:47

versus young reporters, Gen

26:50

Xers, Millennials, and Zoomers?

26:52

I mean what does the term mean

26:54

to those who are in community and those who are allies?

26:57

Exactly, and so we turned all of these questions

27:00

into its own segment and kind

27:02

of interrogated our own use of the word queer.

27:05

And of course we had some great listeners

27:08

who called in to tell us what

27:09

queer meant to them. Hi this

27:12

is Fancie from Petersburg. How

27:14

do I feel about the word queer? I love

27:17

the word queer. I wear it as

27:19

a badge of honor. It was

27:21

one of the first words that felt like home to me.

27:23

Hi I'm Dawn from San Diego, California.

27:25

I was working at a gay and lesbian

27:27

bookstore in the 80s

27:30

and I couldn't stand the word queer. And

27:33

then a friend

27:35

came by wearing a queer nation

27:37

shirt and I said what is this? How can

27:39

you do this? That's the word they

27:41

call us. And he said my

27:43

dear they're gonna call us queer no matter

27:46

what. So I'm taking back

27:48

the word and I'm proudly wearing it

27:50

and you should too. And I did

27:53

and I proudly identify as queer.

27:55

And to dive more into the history and etymology

27:58

of the word queer we spoke with Michael Bronsky,

28:00

a longtime activist and author and

28:02

currently a professor of the practice at

28:04

Harvard University.

28:06

So talk to me about how this

28:09

broad term queer can

28:12

be so disruptive. What does it mean to embrace

28:15

disruption rather than

28:18

sort of ask for inclusion or are

28:20

they part of the same project?

28:21

I think it's very instructive to think about

28:24

where the first use of the word queer as a reclaimed

28:27

word is 1990 from a group called

28:30

Queer Nation. And that happens

28:32

in after 10 years of the HIV

28:34

AIDS epidemic

28:36

in an ocean of enormous anger and

28:38

hurt and pain. At that point,

28:40

people, activists were so angry

28:43

of government inaction, of

28:46

common apathy towards men with HIV

28:48

and AIDS, that they needed

28:50

a word that would actually disrupt

28:52

the more common civil discourse

28:55

of gay rights or gay politics.

28:58

And queer did that, right? Queer was shocking,

29:00

queer was in

29:01

your face, queer said we're

29:04

queer and we're angry and we're not going away,

29:06

right? So in that way, if you look

29:08

at a politic of queer

29:11

disruption, meaning to upend the system,

29:14

very different than to assimilate into

29:16

the system.

29:17

I went to the Brooklyn Pride Parade in Park Slope

29:19

and I talked to people on the street about the word

29:21

queer and what it meant to them. And

29:24

what was it like going out and interviewing folks

29:26

in person?

29:27

You know, it was my first Vox Pop reporting,

29:29

so I was a little nervous. I actually brought

29:31

some friends out with me so I didn't look so awkward

29:34

standing there alone with a microphone.

29:36

And I was really hoping people wouldn't be annoyed

29:38

with me for trying to interrupt them and trying to talk

29:40

with them. But everyone was actually

29:43

really nice and we had some good conversations.

29:45

Everybody knows that the best pride happens in the sense

29:48

of the universe.

29:48

That is Brooklyn, New York! I

29:52

used the word queer to describe myself.

29:54

I think that it's an all-encompassing

29:57

description of a community and I think it brings

29:59

us all to the stage.

29:59

together. I love it. I think it's powerful.

30:02

I think it's like an umbrella term. Whoever

30:05

wants to use it uses it. And how do you feel

30:07

about the word queer? I know the young people have

30:09

reclaimed it, but it really

30:11

doesn't work for me. At first

30:13

when the word queer came out like

30:17

after like kind of high school for me, it was kind of strange

30:19

for me to hear that.

30:20

But once I found out the definition of it, I

30:22

think it's beautiful. I think it's good. Yeah.

30:25

I love this segment because we really had an

30:27

opportunity to hear from people with such a wide

30:30

range of opinions about this word. Yeah.

30:33

I really learned a lot. And we

30:35

even posed this question to our guest Michael Bronsky

30:38

from Harvard University, who was kind

30:40

of giving us a little background on the history

30:42

of the word.

30:43

And we first heard from Jude who is non-binary

30:45

and queer. I think queer inherently

30:48

is permission to be in

30:50

a community of individuals that don't

30:53

want to be a part of the status quo, can't be a part of the status

30:55

quo, and are just fulfilled

30:58

and happy being themselves and

31:00

with other people and exploring like who

31:02

they are as individuals outside of the

31:05

confines of what it means to be in

31:07

like a binary, whether it's gender or sexuality

31:10

or like whatever.

31:13

Yeah. So Michael, what

31:15

do you hear in the ways that they're making use of queer

31:17

there? It's a liberatory word.

31:20

And I think if we look at the history of

31:22

the gay movements, because I believe there are

31:25

multiple movements that have always been happening in

31:27

the United States, right? There's a gay

31:29

liberation movement that started right after

31:31

Stonewall with the gay liberation front, right?

31:33

Which actually has its roots in

31:36

the black liberation movement and women's

31:38

liberation movement. And then there's the

31:40

gay rights movement. And

31:42

both of these are completely valid movements. And both

31:45

of them sometimes work in concert and sometimes

31:47

you're up up against one another. And

31:49

what queer does, right? It really speaks

31:52

to

31:53

the

31:54

impulse of gay liberation, meaning

31:56

to be liberated from the norm.

31:58

Is the word too

32:01

much of an umbrella? Does it,

32:04

by creating space for so

32:06

many, does it remove

32:08

specificity about very particular

32:11

histories and experiences?

32:13

It has that potential, and it certainly

32:15

has had that actuality in many people.

32:17

I can remember being at a queer studies conference

32:20

at Harvard in 1990,

32:21

and

32:24

at the end of the conference, a lesbian stood

32:26

up and she said, I hate the word queer. It's

32:28

one more way for gay men not to say

32:30

lesbians.

32:33

All right, let's hear from, I

32:35

wanna hear from Sarah and Shep, both

32:38

in their 70s, really around this issue.

32:43

I find it offensive. We were

32:45

beaten for too many years and

32:48

called queer. I'm a lesbian,

32:51

I'm proud of being a lesbian.

32:54

I find the word queer offensive.

32:56

I know young people like it, but

32:58

if they were victims of

33:01

homophobia back in those days and

33:03

being called queer, they would not

33:06

like it so much. And I don't like when they say

33:08

reclaiming it, because it was never ours

33:10

to begin with, not reclaiming it, they co-opting

33:12

it from heterosexuals who use it against

33:15

us. Shep's argument that it's not

33:17

reclaiming, but it's co-opting is really

33:19

interesting, this argument I've never heard before. But

33:22

I think what we're hearing, right, is differences

33:24

of experience and

33:26

what Sarah was saying, I think it's quite

33:28

correct that if people had

33:31

lived through a certain time period, that

33:33

creates an identity

33:36

that is very specific to that time period, and

33:39

that identity may not adapt to

33:41

the present or what younger people are feeling. I

33:44

completely respect people who are uncomfortable

33:46

with it. I respect their experience and their opinion.

33:49

They're sort of fighting an uphill battle against

33:51

history because it is so commonly used

33:53

now.

33:56

All right, we've got some more segments

33:59

highlighting the work of Sarah. of our producer, Katarina

34:01

Barton, when we return. It's

34:03

The Takeaway Producer Appreciation

34:05

Week.

34:08

We're taught the Supreme

34:10

Court was designed to be above

34:12

the fray. But right now, are

34:14

the nine justices living up to that promise?

34:17

I'm Julia Longoria, host

34:19

of the podcast More Perfect. We

34:21

bring the highest court in the land down

34:24

to earth. We'll meet people on all sides

34:26

of crucial cases and give you the history

34:28

that explains how we got here, More

34:31

Perfect from WNYC Studios.

34:33

Listen wherever you get podcasts.

34:39

["More Perfect"]

34:47

Thanks for sticking with us on The Takeaway. I'm Melissa

34:49

Harris-Perry, and I'm back with Takeaway

34:52

producer, Katarina Barton. As

34:54

we're kicking off our Producer Appreciation

34:56

Weeks in advance of the final episode of The

34:58

Takeaway on June 2nd. Hey,

35:01

Melissa. Now, I know it's May,

35:03

and we're hearing some Christmas music playing in the background.

35:06

And I know you agree with me because I've

35:08

already seen your holiday sweater collection, but

35:11

it really is the most wonderful time

35:13

of the year.

35:14

Oh, it really is. And thank

35:16

you for noticing that my Christmas sweater collection

35:19

is staggering. Oh yes, a different

35:21

sweater for every meeting. And I also

35:23

know that you also love a good holiday

35:25

movie because we definitely talked about it, and

35:28

I do too. My cousin and I once

35:30

had high hopes for starting a movie podcast

35:33

where we would just watch and review all of

35:35

the amazing and terrible Christmas

35:37

movies that start coming out around Halloween.

35:41

Katarina, have you just revealed your

35:43

post-Takeaway

35:44

plans? I mean, all I need is a podcast

35:46

name now, and we're good to go. And

35:49

one of my favorite things about The

35:51

Takeaway is that, you know, we do the serious

35:53

news topics and analysis, but

35:55

we also have a lot of fun on the show,

35:58

and we have our very own... movie critic

36:00

duo who like to bless us with their movie

36:02

prescriptions for the various occasions.

36:05

I'm Kristen Meinzer. And I'm Rafer Guzman.

36:08

And together we host movie therapy

36:11

with Rafer and Kristen. And

36:13

by the way, Kristen and Rafer are takeaway

36:15

family. Kristen was a producer here

36:17

for years and Kristen and Rafer were

36:20

the show's regular on-air movie critics.

36:23

And obviously this movie therapy session

36:25

that we're about to play for you is focused

36:27

on holiday movie prescriptions.

36:30

Easily one of my all-time favorites

36:33

with these two. I still can't

36:35

get over what Kristen said about how

36:37

many movies

36:38

she watches. I

36:41

usually try to watch about 60 holiday

36:43

movies in 60 days in the lead up

36:45

to Christmas all the way through

36:47

early January. I

36:49

see them in the theater. I watch made-for-TV

36:52

movies. I watch classics. I don't

36:54

discriminate. I'll watch everything

36:56

from the latest

36:59

on Hallmark to the

37:01

very exciting and very violent action

37:03

movie, Violent Night. I will watch it all and

37:06

I will love it all. And I will stand up and cheer and

37:08

I

37:08

will feel the holiday magic. Oh, I

37:10

love it. How about you, Rafer? Are you with us on this? You

37:13

know, for some strange reason,

37:15

I'm not a big Christmas movie fan. But

37:17

my Christmas spirit comes from music.

37:21

And I have a playlist of

37:23

probably a few thousand songs

37:25

and they're all very obscure. You can't find

37:28

them on streaming services. And so I compile

37:30

them all on an old iPod

37:32

and I plug it into my stereo and I drive

37:35

my family insane with all these bizarre

37:37

Christmas songs that I play every year. So

37:40

that's my Christmas ritual.

37:42

I love that like Your Christmas Gift to Others

37:44

is something that they hate. That's exactly

37:46

right. That's the spirit of giving there.

37:53

All three of you

37:54

together just brings me so much joy.

37:56

I can't even explain it. And these segments

37:58

are so fun for me to produce. I always

38:00

get some new movie prescriptions from Rayford

38:02

and Kristen too. So let's listen

38:04

to a couple of those movie picks.

38:07

Kristen, I want to get right into your movie

38:09

prescriptions, and you have one from this

38:11

year. You say that this is the best

38:14

Hallmark holiday movie. Let's take

38:16

a listen.

38:17

Who are you? Jason, your family's neighbor. Jason's

38:20

great with kids. I just need someone to help me

38:22

until I get the hang of things. Oh

38:24

my gosh, this is the holiday sitter,

38:27

and it is Hallmark's first

38:29

official gay Christmas rom-com. It

38:32

stars Hallmark holiday star Jonathan Bennett, who

38:35

many of us know best as Lindsay

38:37

Lohan's crush in Mean Girls. And

38:39

in the holiday sitter, he plays a child-free,

38:42

commitmentful big city New York

38:44

single who gets cornered into

38:46

babysitting his sister's kids in the

38:48

suburbs during the holidays. Along

38:51

the way, he enlists the help of one

38:53

of his sister's neighbors, a

38:54

very handsome handyman

38:56

who happens to be great with kids, played by George Chrissa.

38:59

And of course, the two hit it off, but can

39:02

they overcome their differences? Will Christmas magic prevail? I'm

39:06

not going to tell you. You have to watch to find out. It

39:08

is a delight. It's a Hallmark movie. Is Christmas magic

39:10

going to prevail? Come on. No

39:15

spoilers here, but yes, it will. And,

39:19

Rayva, you also have a prescription for this

39:21

season, a kind of best

39:23

movie version

39:24

of an ugly Christmas sweater. What

39:26

does that mean? Well, yeah, I call this

39:28

an ugly Christmas sweater. I'll explain in a minute.

39:31

This is a Netflix movie. We

39:33

have a Lindsay Lohan connection here, too. This actually

39:36

is the comeback of Lindsay Lohan. It's

39:38

called Falling for Christmas, and it is her first

39:41

major movie role in nearly a decade. And

39:43

she plays Sierra Belmont. It's

39:45

a thinly disguised version of Paris Hilton, if

39:47

you ask me. She's a rich, spoiled

39:50

hotel heiress who's never worked a day in her life.

39:53

One day, Sierra goes up to a mountaintop

39:55

with her boyfriend, Tad, who surprises

39:57

her with a proposal, just like Paris Hilton's fiancée,

39:59

Diddy.

39:59

as you may recall. But in this case, Sierra

40:02

accidentally falls off the mountaintop, bumps

40:05

her head, and develops amnesia. Oh

40:07

no. And she wakes up in the arms

40:09

of a handsome, conveniently widowed guy

40:12

named Jake, played by Cord over

40:14

Street.

40:14

And of course, now rich Sierra will

40:17

have to be put to work in Jake's humble

40:19

ski lodge.

40:21

Now, okay, here is why I call this

40:23

an ugly sweater movie. Because I personally

40:25

found it eye watering. I could barely

40:28

look at this film while it was playing on

40:30

my television screen. Oh, I

40:32

knew you'd love it. I knew

40:34

you'd love it, Kristen. I

40:37

gave this one of my rare zero

40:39

star reviews. However,

40:41

the movie was a hit for Netflix. It was their

40:43

number one movie briefly in November.

40:46

And you can find some pretty positive

40:49

reviews out there. And I will say,

40:51

Lindsay Lohan is actually not bad in

40:53

it. You can see a little glimmer of the

40:55

old magic there. So I would say

40:57

some people found this ugly sweater of a movie

41:00

to be kind of charming and endearing. I wouldn't

41:02

be caught dead wearing it. But you know, some things

41:04

are a matter of taste. If you're a Lindsay Lohan

41:07

fan, check out Falling for Christmas.

41:09

I would wear that sweater. You're round raver.

41:11

I mean, amnesia,

41:13

Lindsay Lohan, Christmas.

41:16

Yeah, it's a little bit like, you know,

41:18

it's a wonderful overboard is kind of how

41:21

I would I would put this movie.

41:27

Oh,

41:27

this is such a fun segment. And I love

41:29

how grumpy Ray for is about Hallmark movies. And you

41:31

and Kristen are just so into them.

41:33

And I really hope our listeners

41:36

are having as much fun with this as we

41:38

are. I hope so too. I'm

41:40

gonna miss being able to do this this holiday

41:42

season, because there's nothing

41:44

better than sharing some holiday cheer

41:46

with a healthy dose of holiday movie prescriptions.

41:50

Ray for Guzman and Kristen Meinzer,

41:53

even if it's May.

41:56

And this next piece is another

41:58

fun one and has everything. to do with

42:00

the word play. Right, because

42:02

we did this as part of our summer play

42:05

series. We were all trying to

42:07

think outside the box about how

42:09

adults play and have fun

42:11

and preserve their childlike spirit well

42:14

into adulthood. And while I was researching

42:16

some ideas, I came across a unique

42:18

spin on what everyone calls America's

42:21

national pastime. The

42:22

one constant through all the years, Ray,

42:25

has been baseball. Great

42:27

ball on, here comes the pitch. Great break! That

42:30

is hammered into last. Okay, let's get

42:32

to it. We're contenders now. My job

42:34

is to be a professional goofball. That's

42:36

how small I get baseball! Now

42:39

a lot of people have been calling baseball too

42:41

long and too boring for many

42:44

years. So much so that this

42:46

year, Major League Baseball made a few

42:48

key changes to make the

42:49

sport faster paced and to draw

42:51

in new audiences. Yeah, but I heard of a minor

42:54

league team out in Savannah, Georgia who

42:56

was kind of already doing this and it actually

42:58

looked like a lot of fun.

43:00

The Savannah Bananas are an unconventional

43:03

baseball team that has nearly 6 million

43:06

followers on TikTok. That's

43:08

more than any Major League Baseball team.

43:10

And I would be lying if I said I didn't spend

43:12

a few hours watching Savannah Banana TikToks,

43:15

you know, for the research.

43:17

Alright then, let's roll that

43:19

tape. On three, everyone in the stadium

43:21

is going to say play ball. One, two,

43:23

three. PLAY BALL!

43:28

This wildly popular minor league baseball

43:30

franchise has sold out every home

43:32

game at their historic Grayson Stadium

43:34

in Savannah, Georgia since its founding in 2016.

43:38

Fans

43:38

come from miles away to watch the bananas

43:41

collegiate team in the summer and the pro bananas

43:43

throughout the rest of the year.

43:45

These pros have become famous for their high

43:47

energy quick-paced and quirky game

43:50

of banana ball. This is

43:52

not baseball. This

43:54

is not

43:55

your granddad's pastime. This

43:57

is the time for all 4,000. people

44:00

here tonight to get up on

44:03

your feet and give me your

44:05

voices because this is

44:08

the greatest show in sports.

44:11

This is Banana

44:13

Bomb!

44:15

And as you just heard it's not just a game it's

44:17

a show where fans, players

44:19

and coaches alike dance, sing and play.

44:22

A

44:22

number of sports reporters have compared the team's

44:25

fun-filled approach to the trailblazing

44:27

style of the Harlem Globetrotters.

44:29

Savannah

44:32

banana games include choreographed dances

44:35

during the game, iconic walk-ups,

44:38

players and kilts and sometimes

44:40

even a pitcher on stilts and

44:42

of course lots of banana costumes.

44:45

And before the first pitcher thrown there's

44:48

a Lion King themed tribute to a different

44:50

banana baby each game.

45:00

Here

45:03

with me now is Jesse Cole, owner

45:06

of the Savannah Bananas and fun fact

45:08

he owns seven yellow tuxedos

45:11

and wears one to every game. Jesse

45:13

welcome to The Takeaway. I'm

45:14

so excited to be with you. And Macio

45:17

Harrison is the first-based dance coach

45:19

and choreographer for the Savannah Bananas. Macio

45:22

welcome to The Takeaway. Hello

45:23

I'm so excited to be here. Macio

45:25

can I start with you because there was all kinds of debate

45:27

about this. Are you the first-based

45:30

dance coach or the dancing first-based

45:32

coach?

45:34

Well it's

45:36

either or, it's not how you play, whatever you're

45:38

comfortable with. I always say first-based

45:41

dancing coach but dancing

45:43

first-based coach is fine as well.

45:45

I love that it's just you

45:48

know I was I was saying to my director I was

45:50

like so it's the skill that he's teaching first-basing

45:52

or is the skill that he's teaching dancing? It's

45:55

dancing and entertainment

45:57

and goofiness but yeah I don't

45:59

know. And whoever rolls off the tongue the easiest

46:02

for people, I just let it happen. So

46:05

what is banana ball, Jesse? It's

46:08

the world's fastest and most entertaining game of

46:11

baseball. So yes, we invented

46:13

a new game with a two hour time limit

46:15

where batters can steal first, batters

46:17

can't step out of the batter's box. There's

46:19

no bunting and even if fans catch a foul

46:22

ball, it's an out. It's crazy.

46:24

I love the idea that

46:27

fans catching it also

46:29

constitutes an out. It gets everybody,

46:31

you know, with some stake in this game.

46:34

You spoke a little bit here about the

46:37

inspiration to make these kinds

46:39

of changes, you know, going from

46:41

being a player to being

46:44

an observer and suddenly having a different experience

46:46

of the game. But what are the other core

46:48

inspirations for you, Jesse?

46:50

Well, seven years ago, my wife and I came to Savannah

46:53

to launch a brand new team. And, you

46:54

know, we only sold two tickets in our first few

46:57

months. And, you know, by January of 2016, we

46:59

overdrafted our account. We were completely out of money

47:01

and we had nothing left. We were sleeping on an

47:03

air bed and we knew we just had to do something

47:06

that could get a bigger group of people excited

47:08

to come see us play. And, you know,

47:10

I read every book on Walt Disney and P.T. Barnum

47:13

and, you know, started looking at the people that

47:15

have brought so much fun to the masses. And

47:18

we said, we're not in the baseball business. We're in the entertainment

47:20

business. And we just started asking every

47:22

question. What can we do that fans first and

47:24

what can we do to entertain always? And we've

47:27

been fortunate now every game sold out

47:29

and the waitlist is over seventy five thousand for

47:31

tickets. Just blows my mind from where we

47:33

started.

47:33

You know, funny as you are saying that

47:36

this is part of our ongoing

47:38

segments around the issue of play.

47:42

And Jesse, I guess I'm wondering when you are in that

47:44

moment that is sleeping on the air mattress.

47:48

Right. You know, I've come to these

47:50

kind of like what feel like end of the road moments

47:52

in and it can be hard to

47:54

feel playful, right? Especially if if

47:57

your spouse is there, if your family is there.

47:59

How do you.

47:59

maintain a sense of experimentation

48:02

and play when you're facing like, okay,

48:04

we got to pay some bills here.

48:06

We had no other options. You know,

48:08

I wish I'd go back and say, you know, it was this

48:11

clear thing that we did, but we just got up every day showed

48:13

up and we believed in something. And when

48:15

you truly believe in something and you believe

48:17

in, you know, every game our players deliver roses

48:20

to little girls in the middle of the game, every game, Macio,

48:22

not only does dancing and people go crazy, but he

48:24

gets in the crowd, he interacts with thousands of fans

48:26

in the middle of the game. And I knew that if we

48:29

could do that, we'd break down the barriers. And

48:31

so it's hope, it's optimism, but

48:33

it's just showing up. And I realized that

48:35

my wife and I that if we could just get people to show up

48:37

that first game and see it, we'd be okay.

48:39

And luckily they came and, you know, the

48:41

rest is history.

48:42

Jesse Cole is the owner

48:45

of the Savannah Bananas. Jesse, thanks

48:47

for joining us. Thank you. And

48:49

Macio Harrison is the dancing

48:52

first base coach or the first

48:54

base dance coach. He's also the choreographer

48:57

for the Savannah Bananas. Macio,

48:59

thank you for being here.

49:00

Thank you so much. This was a blast.

49:03

I love

49:04

talking to you guys. All

49:08

right, folks, that's it for us today. But

49:11

before we go, I just need to take a minute to

49:13

say a few words about Katarina Barton.

49:18

Listen, making radio is definitely

49:21

a team sport. And

49:23

Katarina is what we call a franchise

49:26

player. She does it

49:28

all.

49:29

The pitches that she brings to the table

49:31

are relevant, timely and on brand.

49:34

But she also services lots of original, engaging,

49:37

unique and as you heard, fun

49:39

ideas. Well, she's more than just

49:41

an idea factory. Katarina is

49:44

unparalleled in execution. She

49:47

finds guests, she dives into facts,

49:49

she preps questions, and she writes the

49:51

cleanest copy around. But wait, there's

49:54

more. On any given morning,

49:56

Katarina might be playing the role of

49:58

fill in line producer.

49:59

She might lead the morning meeting

50:01

as backup for a senior producer. Afternoons

50:05

could find her out in the field on assignment.

50:08

And evenings she might be helping out

50:10

with script edits for the team.

50:13

She's steady, accountable, kind,

50:16

and incredibly talented. Katarina

50:19

is simply a quietly

50:22

inspiring team leader.

50:25

But for me,

50:26

what sets Katarina apart is

50:29

her heart for the stories that she

50:31

tells. I know you heard it today. Her

50:34

heart is in every single one of them. So

50:37

thanks so much just for being you, Kaby. Thank

50:40

you so much, Melissa. The takeaway has

50:42

been home for me for a really long time.

50:45

And it's nice to hear those words.

50:48

Alright, everybody. Thanks so

50:50

much to all of y'all for listening.

50:52

I'm Melissa Harris-Perry. This

50:55

is The Takeaway.