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0:21

This is The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry.

0:24

Thanks for joining us. As

0:26

I'm sure you know by now, we're counting down

0:29

to the final episode of The Takeaway, which

0:31

will air on June 2nd. And

0:34

before we go, we're using this time

0:36

to introduce you to the dedicated

0:38

team of The Takeaway, who

0:41

are responsible for all the stories you've

0:43

come to appreciate and love.

0:46

Yes, y'all, these are Producer Appreciation

0:48

Weeks. And today we're showing

0:51

some serious appreciation for

0:53

a truly

0:54

capital producer, Morgan

0:56

Givens. And then when I say capital,

0:59

I'm not just referring to Morgan's first

1:01

rate radio making. I also

1:04

mean that Morgan works out of Washington,

1:06

DC. And yeah, y'all,

1:08

he's a big part of what makes The

1:10

Takeaway

1:12

go, go.

1:14

Hey, Morgan, welcome to

1:17

this side of the mic. Hey,

1:21

Morgan, welcome to this side of the mic. Woo hoo hoo.

1:24

Thanks, Melissa. Feels like I'm a tourist

1:27

or something. Welcome to the mic's other side. Tripping.

1:33

Listen, I am going

1:35

to so miss your sense of humor, bro. Oh, you know, I appreciate

1:37

that, especially

1:40

because the conversation that we're going

1:42

to revisit is a pretty serious one. And

1:45

it's one that, as a black transmasculine,

1:49

person is pretty close to my heart.

1:51

I'm constantly fascinated by the way

1:53

society teaches us to separate parts of

1:55

ourselves into limiting expressions

1:57

of the gender binary.

1:59

And for a moment, moment, Jonathan

2:01

Major seemed somewhat interested in existing

2:03

outside of, or at least peering

2:06

outside of, those confines. Remember

2:08

the Ebony cover? How

2:11

could I forget? I mean, Major's

2:14

was decked out in fluffy

2:16

pinks and reds,

2:18

and Morgan, he talked about

2:21

his feelings. Right?

2:24

He was reppin' vulnerable masculinity

2:26

in the cool way, and some folks

2:28

still took issue with his wearing of pink

2:31

in 2023. Wild,

2:34

right? I mean, there were some folks accusing

2:36

him of pushing an agenda of black

2:39

male emasculation. Now,

2:41

Major spoke with one of my

2:43

favorite humans, NPR's

2:46

Ayesha Roscoe, and

2:48

this was following the backlash he received

2:51

for the Ebony cover.

2:52

I just be curious. What they have to say. Tell

2:54

me what masculinity is. You know what I mean? Like,

2:57

I wouldn't want to walk up on me in the street, but

3:00

it's bigger than that. It's love. You know, it's like there's

3:03

awareness, and

3:05

then there's acknowledgement

3:07

of ignorance. A big part of it is kindness,

3:11

use of power, gentleness.

3:15

These are masculine characteristics.

3:17

It's quite unmasculine

3:20

to try to emasculate another man. Shortly

3:22

after that interview, in late March, Jonathan

3:25

Major's was arrested on charges of

3:27

assault and harassment against a woman.

3:30

He was arraigned and subsequently released,

3:33

and he continues to deny and dispute

3:35

the charges. Here's the curious

3:37

thing, though. After his arrest,

3:39

we saw some of the same people who were up

3:41

in arms about Major's embracing a more

3:43

vulnerable side of himself,

3:45

racing to defend him now that an

3:47

allegation of violence was attached to who he

3:49

might be. I couldn't make heads

3:51

or tails of it, and I wasn't the only

3:54

one. Which is why

3:56

it's a good thing that Mark Anthony Neal,

3:59

the James B.

3:59

Duke Distinguished Professor of African

4:02

and African American Studies at Duke University

4:04

and also host of Left of Black podcast

4:08

and was around to try and help us make some

4:10

sense of it through the historical lens

4:13

of black masculinity.

4:14

I think historically we've understood

4:17

black manhood to be strength, to

4:19

be integrity, to be honesty, to

4:21

be bravery, to be

4:24

that figure in black communities

4:27

that's always solid, that has

4:29

everyone's back. And of course that's

4:31

meant very different things and very

4:34

different things generationally over the years.

4:37

Black masculinity, I think black manhood

4:39

has always been seen as kind of the last line of

4:42

defense, particularly in the context

4:44

of white supremacy. That if

4:47

white supremacy is ultimately going

4:49

to overthrow blackness, if

4:51

you will, it will happen in the context

4:54

of undermining the black man,

4:56

right? Undermining our ideals

4:58

historically of what black manhood is

5:01

supposed to be.

5:02

I think it's a challenge particularly

5:04

for young black men because

5:06

they're given a set of ideals of

5:10

what that last line of defense should look

5:12

like. It's supposed to be historically

5:15

heterosexual. It's supposed to be

5:17

masculine, if not hyper-masculine.

5:19

It was supposed to be a performance

5:22

of black manhood that would strike

5:24

fear in white supremacy,

5:27

right? So they would never come for us. And

5:29

I think for young black men trying to live

5:32

up to that ideal, which

5:34

might not be something that is unique

5:37

and part of your interior

5:40

sense of who you are, but

5:42

is a box that you're expected to fit

5:44

in. I think that's often been a challenge

5:46

for young black men. And quite honestly, it's a

5:49

challenge for older black men also.

5:51

Now Morgan, I wonder what you think when you

5:53

hear Professor Neal's thoughts and insights

5:56

about what sounds like a core

5:58

foundational tenet.

6:00

of black masculinity. The

6:03

master's tools. I

6:05

mean, I laugh

6:08

a little out of frustration or maybe

6:10

a little sadness

6:11

like that old El Paso taco shells commercial.

6:14

Why not boast? You know, I

6:16

can't help but think of how emotionally

6:19

limiting it must be to be raised with

6:21

the understanding, even if unspoken,

6:24

that your role one day could be instilling

6:26

fear in order to be safe

6:28

and to keep loved ones safe. I've

6:30

had moments myself where I've been in potentially

6:33

dangerous situations and leaned into

6:35

the fear I knew other surrounding me had

6:37

based on nothing more than the assumed belief

6:40

that I'm a black cisgender man.

6:42

It's kind of maddening. And

6:44

I think of the way society punishes black men

6:46

and boys for societal beliefs that spring

6:49

from that fear.

6:50

It's one of the worst kinds of catch 22. Look,

6:53

to be sure, and to be clear,

6:56

black masculinity as it's expected

6:58

to be performed isn't the only

7:01

type of masculinity predicated in

7:03

part on an idea of violence.

7:06

No doubt. I mean, the more I interrogate

7:09

masculinity as a whole, the more

7:11

absurd some gender performances seem

7:13

to become. It's like we

7:15

really just started labeling normal human

7:17

behaviors as masculine or feminine.

7:21

Crying. Feminine. Not

7:23

crying. Asculine. And

7:26

if who you are doesn't fit into those prescribed

7:29

categories of acceptable behavior. Well,

7:32

then you're up gender creek without a paddle.

7:35

Now, fortunately though, there

7:37

are some black men we're able to see

7:39

impressing the full range of themselves

7:42

today.

7:43

The first who comes to mind is of course,

7:45

Billy Porter,

7:47

who's been stunning photographers and

7:49

fans on red carpets while strutting

7:52

in evening gowns that defy the gender

7:54

binary and openly embracing

7:56

the parts of himself

7:57

that he'd shunned in the past. Though

8:00

it doesn't mean it's always an easy thing

8:02

to do.

8:04

And even with his confidence, it's

8:06

not always certain it'll be accepted.

8:07

Historically, obviously

8:09

there have been figures

8:11

like a Bailey Porter in black

8:14

communities. They

8:16

didn't necessarily have a public forum

8:18

to fully express their ideals

8:21

of themselves, even as they're

8:23

continuously expressing their ideals of what

8:25

it is to be a black man

8:28

in their moment. And I think we've

8:30

done damage to the idea

8:32

of black humanity by limiting

8:35

the ways in which black men are

8:37

allowed to show up, how they

8:39

dress, how they are styled,

8:42

how they use language, right? How they move.

8:45

We are complex human individuals.

8:47

And I'm thinking also now the vocals of

8:49

someone like Luther Vandross, because

8:52

it's a performance of black manhood that

8:55

shares a range of emotions. And

8:58

it's not that black men don't have emotions,

9:01

but the acceptable emotions for black

9:03

men have often been anger and rage.

9:06

When we say anger and rage, we have no problem understanding

9:08

that as a performance of black masculinity.

9:11

But when we start to talk about things like tenderness,

9:14

when we start to talk about things like vulnerability,

9:18

for many folks, they still see that as

9:20

a mark of weakness amongst

9:23

black men, as opposed to a strength.

9:26

So this is the social arena that

9:28

Major stepped into, clad

9:30

in a shaggy pink jacket on the cover

9:32

of Ebony.

9:34

Some comments were positive, others bristled

9:36

with homophobia at the softness

9:39

depicted by Major's image

9:41

in the photos. On

9:43

the one hand, you give John's

9:45

and Major's kudos for being comfortable

9:48

enough in his masculinity that

9:50

he can wear anything that he wants. And

9:53

I'd like to think we're in a historical moment where many

9:55

black men feel comfortable in that way.

9:58

But some of the critiques...

9:59

that you heard that success

10:02

in Hollywood, if you're Jonathan Majors, or so

10:04

many other black men means that

10:06

you have to be a feminized in that context,

10:09

right? The price that you pay for

10:11

being a top line, you

10:14

know, black male actor in Hollywood,

10:16

right, is to lose your masculinity.

10:19

And I'm sure, you know, for many black

10:21

men who cover a range

10:23

of personalities and styles within

10:26

black masculinity, it was absolutely

10:28

hurtful to hear those comments. And

10:31

those comments themselves are derived

10:33

from this fear

10:35

that black masculinity is being eroded

10:37

in this moment. And of course, then almost

10:40

immediately, right, the next sort

10:42

of thing that we hear

10:45

in public space around Jonathan

10:48

Majors is his arrest

10:50

on a domestic dispute. He was charged with harassment

10:52

and assault. He denied the allegations

10:55

and then following his arrest,

10:57

some of those same sort

10:59

of spirit of, oh,

11:02

he's emasculating black men, took

11:05

up the position behind him as

11:07

supporter, right? Suggesting that,

11:09

oh no, this

11:11

is indicative that he actually is

11:13

manly. He actually is sufficiently

11:15

masculine. You know, this is the thing. And

11:18

I'll draw from my own work in this context.

11:20

You know,

11:21

Jonathan Majors on the

11:23

cover for many black men, for some

11:26

black men was illegible. What

11:28

then made him legible

11:30

is an accusation of

11:33

domestic violence, right? That's

11:35

the thing that made him a real man, right?

11:37

Because again, in some sectors

11:40

of the black community amongst black

11:42

men and women, that what a real man

11:44

does is keep his quote unquote woman

11:46

in control. And if all

11:48

other means don't work, right, then you

11:51

resort to violence, right? And, you know, we

11:53

know this is a long historical narrative, but not

11:55

just in black communities.

11:57

And I think that's troubling to me, particularly

11:59

how... quickly it shifted. I mean,

12:01

part of that is the world of social media where

12:03

everything shifts, right? You know, one

12:06

day's news story is gone five hours

12:08

later. But just the way that

12:10

folks, the sentiment shifted for folks who

12:12

were so critical and

12:15

ambivalent about Jonathan

12:17

Majors prior to that moment because of the cover

12:20

on the magazine, suddenly the ambivalence

12:22

disappears.

12:24

So, what does that help us to understand

12:27

about what sort

12:30

of the definitions, the narrow

12:32

definitions of black masculinity mean

12:35

for black girls and women? I

12:38

think it's troubling still,

12:42

in the sense that, you

12:44

know, we still have no real measure

12:47

of their amount of

12:48

domestic violence,

12:51

abuse that occurs within

12:53

black communities, if there

12:56

is still such a long held belief

12:59

that part of the role of a black man,

13:01

right, is to instill discipline,

13:04

right, amongst women in black

13:06

communities and children in black communities, in

13:08

that the most effective means

13:11

of that discipline is violence. And

13:14

that's not even considering the role of emotional

13:16

violence,

13:17

right, in the context of this. On

13:20

the one hand, you know, I think 20 years ago,

13:23

we're not having the kind of full conversation

13:25

about

13:26

what Jonathan Majors looked like on the cover

13:29

magazine, or the accusations

13:31

of domestic violence 20 years ago to the fullness

13:33

that we're having these conversations now. And

13:35

I think in that regard it bodes well for future

13:38

generations of young black folks, right,

13:41

who, in considering everything that's

13:43

going on, right, can have a much

13:45

more deeper

13:48

understanding of what's at

13:50

risk, right, when we hold on to

13:52

these very, very old stereotypes

13:54

and archetypes of what black

13:57

masculinity is supposed to be.

13:59

So listening back on that conversation, Morgan,

14:02

I'm wondering, what does black masculinity

14:05

mean to you? Oh,

14:07

goodness, you know, I feel like I'm still

14:09

exploring that. But for me, it's about

14:11

reclaiming my humanity, like all

14:14

parts of it,

14:15

masculine, feminine and the parts

14:17

that exist outside of easy categorization.

14:20

Maybe one day I hope we move beyond

14:23

it enough for people to simply be who they are and

14:25

hopefully create a world where we don't cage the

14:27

imaginations, expressions and

14:30

humanity of others.

14:31

Oh, and I'd also like to thank

14:34

fellow producer Katerina Barton for

14:36

her help preparing this

14:37

interview, too. So

14:46

this interview with then Michelle Norris, who

14:48

is the first black openly trans woman

14:50

to helm a major literary publication, Electric

14:53

Literature, was part of our Black Queer

14:55

Rising series during Black History Month. And

14:58

part of what I love about the series itself is

15:00

the way it creates space to uplift amazing

15:02

black queer people while also making

15:05

sure it's not only about some of the trauma

15:07

inflicted by society on us.

15:10

Can I ask how you all came up with the idea

15:12

for the series? Because I know it's not the first

15:14

time you all have done it. All right. So

15:16

this one is all on our guy,

15:18

Zach Bynum. Zachary! And

15:22

Zach, of course, is Team Takeaway's digital

15:24

producer. And as I like to say, the

15:26

keeper of the Gen Z vibes.

15:29

So during my very first February

15:32

hosting the Takeaway, I'd asked the team for

15:34

Black History Month pitches. But I warned

15:36

I didn't just want like McDonald's Black

15:38

History Month facts. OK. And

15:40

Zach

15:43

answered the call with this fully

15:45

intersectional series that links

15:48

our histories and our current moment.

15:51

Of course, we all loved it so much that

15:53

we just kept the black queer rising

15:56

going even beyond that first

15:58

February.

15:59

Dope. Appreciate you, Zach.

16:02

Now let's listen in to this interview with

16:04

Den. She speaks with Janaye Pierre,

16:07

who is our ace backup and host

16:09

of the podcast, Consider This. You

16:12

described yourself as someone with

16:14

an artist's heart, but there

16:16

was one point where you thought you were gonna

16:19

be a lawyer. What changed for you?

16:21

So I graduated from

16:23

college in 2008, and

16:26

that was when the economy

16:28

really kind of fell apart. I

16:31

felt like I had been raised to believe

16:33

that if I worked hard, I went to college,

16:35

I would just sort of be handed some kind

16:37

of stable job. I'd be able to build

16:40

a sort of independent adult life.

16:43

And I had worked toward this and been very excited

16:45

towards it, even though I really

16:48

had wanted at that time to play classical

16:50

music professionally. I grew up playing the viola.

16:53

And when it just seemed like there

16:55

were no jobs to be had and there was nothing

16:57

to be done, I

17:01

had kind of fallen in love with writing in

17:04

college. And I just thought

17:06

to myself, well, why not do what I wanna

17:08

do if the economy is bad and I'm probably

17:10

never gonna make any money anyway. And of course

17:12

we know how millennials are behind other generations,

17:15

economically speaking even now. But

17:17

we didn't know that then. I just thought to myself, well,

17:20

just do what you wanna do. If you wanna be a writer,

17:22

try being a writer. And so I really

17:25

did. I sat down and I just started

17:27

working hard at trying to write

17:30

good short stories.

17:31

There's a note of religiosity that

17:33

comes across in some of your work.

17:36

Talk to me about that. Well,

17:38

that is the

17:41

sort of conflict or tension with religion

17:43

and queerness is I

17:46

would say a central theme in

17:48

pretty much all of my work. And that comes from a

17:50

very personal place. I grew up in a religious

17:53

home and my father was,

17:57

for many years he was a Baptist pastor

17:59

in the American-

17:59

Baptist churches and actually

18:02

the whole way that my family

18:05

made our way to Cleveland when

18:07

I was a toddler is that my father got a job

18:09

as what's called the executive

18:12

minister of the Cleveland Baptist Association.

18:15

And so in that role, he was

18:17

over some 40 Baptist churches

18:21

and he was sort of equivalent to what

18:24

Catholics would call a bishop. And so,

18:27

you know, religion

18:29

was the central sort of question and

18:31

theme in my childhood

18:33

and in my family life. And it vaulted

18:36

my family into this somewhat

18:40

public sphere, which meant that

18:42

there was an element of it not

18:44

just being a personal

18:47

internal family conversation,

18:50

but a thing that was

18:52

a lens through which other folks looked

18:54

at us and looked at our family. And

18:56

so it was this huge, huge presence

18:59

in my life. And a lot of my work, I

19:01

think for that reason deals

19:04

with questions of faith and

19:07

its intersections with other aspects of our

19:09

lives.

19:10

I know every artist has

19:12

their own reasoning and I'm curious about

19:14

yours. Why do you create?

19:17

What is it inside of you that you want to make

19:19

sure, you know, comes out and

19:22

is seen, heard and read?

19:26

It's interesting

19:28

because this is a question that I

19:31

think for many artists

19:33

and at least for me as a writer, the

19:36

answer is not always the same. You

19:39

know, I think a lot about having

19:41

a whole career, having a body

19:43

of work that I can look upon at the end of my

19:46

life.

19:47

And so at different

19:49

times, there are sometimes different things,

19:51

different forces, different parts of me that

19:54

I want to foreground and show to the world. But

19:56

I think ultimately what's

19:58

behind what I

20:00

do as a writer is

20:03

that desire to sort of take the

20:05

innermost parts of myself, the

20:07

things that are in

20:10

the world that are the most perplexing

20:12

to me, the questions

20:15

that sort of keep me up at night that I'm always pondering

20:17

the big existential things. And

20:20

I want to take those things

20:22

and share them with the world because

20:24

my feeling is that there are other folks

20:27

who have many of those same questions,

20:29

who might be in the same position as me or the

20:32

same identities as me. And

20:34

I think we go through so much of life,

20:37

thinking and feeling that we're alone in

20:40

these things and these questions and these,

20:42

in these obsessions that might perplex us and

20:45

we're not alone. And

20:47

I think we come to art to find that companionship.

20:50

And

20:51

I think of it a lot as like

20:54

I'm taking something from inside myself, I'm

20:56

taking my hand and I'm extending it to

20:58

the reader and the reader is extending

21:01

their hand and we're going on this journey together.

21:04

And once we do that,

21:06

we have a friend, we have a teammate,

21:09

we have a compatriot by our side. All

21:12

right, everybody, keep an eye out for Den Michelle

21:14

Norris's forthcoming book, When

21:17

the Harvest Comes. And we can

21:19

share more of Morgan's favorite interviews

21:21

and stories in just a bit. Now,

21:24

Morgan, take us out of here.

21:25

Stick around. This

21:28

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We're taught the Supreme

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bring the highest court in the land down

22:36

to earth. We'll meet people on all sides

22:38

of crucial cases and give you the history

22:40

that explains how we got here. More

22:43

Perfect from WNYC studios.

22:45

Listen wherever you get podcasts.

22:54

This is The Takeaway. I'm Melissa Harris-Perry,

22:57

and we're digging into some of Morgan Givens'

23:00

favorite guests and interviews that

23:02

he's produced. It's

23:03

all part of our Producer Appreciation

23:06

Week.

23:07

This next one is an interview from our friend Janae

23:09

Pierre, who slid into the host chair for

23:11

a little bit. And I don't want to take too

23:14

much time from this one, because Danez

23:16

Smith is someone I want to leave space

23:18

for.

23:19

Their work is tender, vulnerable,

23:21

and at times, righteously

23:24

angry. Danez is

23:26

a Lambda Award-winning and National

23:29

Book Award finalist, poet,

23:31

and author. So

23:32

let's make sure we leave that space you were just

23:34

talking about.

23:36

Here is slam poet

23:37

Danez Smith from our series

23:40

Black Queer Rising. When

23:43

I was 14, I was lucky enough to stumble

23:47

into the local spoken word

23:50

community here in Minneapolis. Before

23:52

then, I had only been exposed

23:55

to dead

23:57

and majority white writers, and all of a sudden,

23:59

poetry

23:59

She was alive and vibrant

24:02

and it looked like me and it

24:04

helped save my life and make

24:08

sense of the world that

24:10

I think I was awakening up to at the time.

24:14

And I still write because it has continued to

24:16

save my life and continue to be

24:18

a compass and a star that

24:20

I can follow. When

24:23

I'm in despair, when I am in confusion,

24:26

when I'm in grief, it's also

24:28

become a place to hold my ecstasy

24:31

and my joy and my change.

24:33

If you don't mind, I'd like

24:36

for you to read one of your poems. It's

24:38

called The Slap. There's

24:40

no love there, so

24:43

the words won't come. Or

24:46

it's not my love, so I can't

24:48

speak on it.

24:50

And my hands knew before my brain,

24:52

which sent me here to capture the

24:54

faulty papers flung into

24:57

electric space about the hand

24:59

meeting the face and how somehow

25:01

this sets black folks back into

25:03

the fields and up the trees.

25:07

I want black people free

25:09

from my decisions. I

25:11

want my actions to be mine

25:14

and useful. I

25:16

wish my cruelty to wither

25:19

and hopefully my karma has come.

25:22

Uck, the things I've

25:25

said about black women in public.

25:28

Things that were overheard

25:30

or deleted. Things I've

25:32

meant to harm and things I said

25:35

because I was taught to say them. I

25:38

am a faulty ally. I've

25:41

thrown hands to defend, yes,

25:43

but I've also fired the bullet of

25:45

words. I knew which insult

25:48

would hit and said them. Someone

25:51

has the receipts, the

25:53

scar. I call

25:56

Tanya so beautiful

25:58

and kind, Tanya. who was

26:01

good to me and who I loved,

26:03

dark in a way meant

26:06

to hurt. And it did.

26:09

Her disappointment haunted me for years.

26:12

I was so small when I said it so grown

26:14

by the time it left my dreams. There

26:17

was my proof. I

26:19

too could hurt the people

26:22

I love. What good

26:24

was me wailing out of my grandfather's

26:26

face to allow her off the floor

26:29

if I had already begun to turn

26:31

his evils into traditions?

26:34

At the end of my action was

26:37

a black girl crying, someone

26:40

should have knocked me out.

26:44

I wish I was better earlier. I

26:46

wish a world where black women are

26:48

safe. Sweet wish.

26:52

I am stalwart now. This

26:54

is my goodbye. My apology

26:57

will be distance. Or

27:01

eat me here and let me fumble

27:04

into a steward of your peace. My

27:07

prayer. May

27:09

the world be a black girl's

27:11

cake. My promise

27:15

or burn it down. Their poetry

27:18

and the musicality in their voice really

27:21

helped bring that poem to life. And

27:23

I can hear them grappling, in part,

27:26

with the ways we cause harm to those we love, but

27:29

they do so in a way that shows how those

27:31

harms are learned.

27:32

While also, of course,

27:35

demanding a better world for

27:37

black women and girls and recognizing

27:40

their role in creating that world.

27:42

So we wanted to know what comes first

27:45

for Dines when crafting their poetry.

27:48

Do they recognize moments they could have been

27:50

a better person and then the poetry

27:52

comes or does the poetry come

27:55

before this recognition? And

27:57

here's what they had to say.

27:59

I think it happens. both ways, you know? I won't

28:01

speak for all poets, but for as a poet myself,

28:04

I am both moved by

28:06

what poetry becomes a vehicle

28:08

for and like to communicate, but also

28:11

I delight in the communication

28:13

itself, right? So I think what I'm saying is

28:15

I love what poetry holds, but then I just love

28:17

the language of the poem, right? So sometimes

28:20

with the poem,

28:22

it's just sounds and words or maybe

28:25

an image. I often say like I'm

28:27

a poet of people watching. And so sometimes I see

28:30

somebody do something weird on the street

28:33

and just their movement, the delight

28:36

on their face, the something else leads me

28:38

to, you know,

28:39

bring some words to my mind and I try to run and write

28:41

the poem. For myself, I am always

28:44

interested. I used to think I did a lot

28:46

of poems that were pointing at other people. I'm

28:49

more interested at this point of pointing at myself

28:51

and thinking about how this thing relates

28:53

to me in the world. Right. So looking

28:56

at Chris Rock and Will Smith and his

28:58

defense and or Will

29:00

Smith's defense of his wife and Chris

29:04

Rock's, you know, lack of defense, lack

29:06

of lack of defense. Right. Chris Rock's like not even that

29:08

funny joke.

29:09

His offense of her then

29:12

leads me to think about myself. Right. And I think it

29:14

would be easy to talk about

29:18

how the world treats black women. I've written

29:20

poems about that before, but how I am

29:22

worldly, I am in the world and how have I

29:24

been part of that? And so, you know,

29:26

I think it would have been easy to be the

29:28

Will Smith in the poem, but to

29:30

think about being the Chris Rock. How have I

29:34

harmed these women who have

29:37

so protected and enlivened

29:40

and inspired me?

29:41

You've long been on the rise

29:43

and you have indeed arrived.

29:46

But I'm curious, what does black

29:48

queer rising as an idea

29:51

and belief, what does black queer

29:53

rising mean to you? Oh,

29:55

when I hear that, I hear

29:58

a call to. to make

30:01

a world where black queer

30:03

folks, black trans folks, are

30:07

able to move past surviving

30:10

and into thriving, right? When

30:12

I hear rising, I hear soaring,

30:15

I hear flying. You know, it makes

30:17

me think of shows like Pose, right? We're

30:19

like, where, you know, oftentimes

30:21

we were seeing those characters survive

30:25

and doing by any means necessary, doing

30:27

what they needed to do that. We

30:29

also see how survival

30:32

kills

30:33

characters in that show. But

30:36

then there's moments, like, I don't know, spoiler

30:39

alert if you haven't watched all the way through Pose, but

30:42

you know, there's that moment where like angels

30:44

getting married and she

30:47

invites all her black trans

30:49

and Latina trans sisters to like

30:51

wear the wedding gowns. Yeah.

30:54

And you know, and that's about where I'm like, oh, that's the

30:56

rising, right? And like, you know, a

30:58

world where we are loved, where our joy

31:01

is not in despite

31:03

of something else, where

31:05

our survival is not magnificent

31:09

or a tale against what is common,

31:12

you know, let people marvel in the

31:14

magnitude and the wonder that are our gifts

31:17

that are being.

31:19

That was Lambda Literary Award-winning

31:21

and National Book Award finalist, Dinesh

31:24

Smith. I gotta say, Morgan,

31:26

you really do love an artist

31:29

interview. I can't help it,

31:31

you know, they do such phenomenal

31:33

work.

31:38

So this one is with Titus Kaphar, who

31:41

creates stunning visual art. I

31:43

mean, the type of art that really just forces

31:46

you to stop and look. It's

31:48

almost like you've got no choice, but to pay attention

31:50

to his work and what he's got to say. And

31:53

I gotta say, I'm super interested

31:55

in the story he tells through his art and

31:58

the way he forces us to face uncomplicated.

31:59

and internal

32:02

truths in such a beautiful way. You know, I've gotten

32:05

to see some of his work, and, whew, in person,

32:07

it is really something. And

32:12

Titus

32:12

shared how creating art is an act that is liberating

32:15

for him. I

32:17

work in a lot of different mediums.

32:20

I started as a painter, specifically,

32:23

and in many ways, I will always see

32:25

the world through a painter's eyes, but

32:30

artists feels like freedom.

32:33

It feels like the opportunity

32:36

to let other folks know, I'm

32:39

gonna do it a little bit differently.

32:41

So Titus is highly acclaimed

32:43

as an artist. He's got stacks of

32:45

coveted awards and recognitions. He's

32:47

even got a MacArthur Genius Grant and

32:50

a Time Magazine cover.

32:52

And through it all, the honors, the

32:54

awards, he maintains his

32:56

sense of self and voice, even

32:59

when dealing with folks who might not agree with his vision.

33:02

But to hear him tell it, the awards aren't

33:05

even the point for him. It's

33:07

the work and the freedom

33:10

he finds in creation that

33:12

really define him as an artist. So

33:14

why don't we pick up his interview right

33:16

now? The first

33:19

time I engaged

33:21

with your art was the

33:24

Unseen exhibit at

33:27

the Smithsonian.

33:29

Can you just for a moment, I

33:31

feel like maybe people have at least seen some

33:33

reproductions of some of these works,

33:35

and since it's

33:37

radio and I can't show a picture,

33:40

can you describe

33:42

some of these pieces where we are, where

33:45

you're literally peeling down the canvas and

33:51

revealing what is

33:53

behind? Can you just describe maybe one?

33:56

So I mean, I think the most well-known,

33:58

if that's the right word, where to describe

34:00

it, peace in that exhibition, is a painting

34:02

called Behind the Myth of Benevolence. And

34:05

that painting is actually based on

34:07

a conversation that I had with

34:10

an American history teacher. She

34:13

is a 80-year-old woman who

34:15

I care for deeply, but we share no

34:18

political beliefs. I

34:20

enjoy having conversations with people that believe

34:23

differently than me, generally. At

34:26

some point, we got into a conversation

34:29

about Thomas Jefferson, as I said, she's an American

34:31

history teacher. She taught high school for 40 years.

34:34

And at some point in the conversation, she

34:37

said, well, Thomas Jefferson is

34:39

a benevolent slave owner.

34:42

And that phrase confused me so much

34:44

that I asked her to explain herself. And long

34:47

story short, she wasn't able to do that.

34:50

I left her kitchen table

34:53

perplexed, confused, upset,

34:55

and went to the studio where I

34:58

tend to deal with those kinds of emotions. I

35:01

started a painting where on

35:03

the surface layer, you have

35:05

a black woman who

35:08

is clearly sitting in a private

35:10

space, it's dark, the

35:12

background is blue, there's a bronze

35:17

dish with water in it, maybe she's bathing. And

35:20

in front of that is a portrait

35:23

of Thomas Jefferson that

35:25

is pushed to the side,

35:27

almost like a curtain being

35:30

drawn back. And so behind

35:33

this portrait of Thomas Jefferson

35:35

is this portrait of this black woman. And

35:37

the conversation in that painting speaks

35:40

to the sort

35:42

of horrific, I say horrific circumstance

35:47

of Sally Mae Hemings and

35:49

Thomas Jefferson.

35:51

So you as the artist, as the

35:53

creator in that moment, are

35:55

you hoping for a particular

35:57

reaction from those of us who are in the

35:59

audience?

35:59

Who will view it early on

36:02

in my practice? It became very clear that

36:04

I have to find strategies to push

36:06

out outside voices So

36:09

I'm not thinking about forgive

36:12

me you or anyone else in

36:14

the process of making the paintings When

36:17

I'm making these decisions they have

36:19

to come from an interior place if

36:22

they are Rooted

36:25

in trying to be didactic and teach

36:27

a lesson or something like that I

36:30

find

36:31

that the work that I make from that particular

36:33

place is not good

36:35

I recognize that the things that I struggle

36:38

with the world sees as political.

36:40

I recognize that

36:42

when they see my painting where

36:46

There are two black men in the center and

36:48

their hands are up and it's whitewashed

36:51

and there's a frantic energy to every

36:53

brushstroke I know that people see

36:55

that and think oh, this is this is

36:57

about black lives matter The reality

37:00

is that painting is about me and

37:02

my brother walking down the street of Chelsea

37:04

and being stopped by police officers with

37:07

their hands on their guns and while my

37:09

white collectors walk by I Am

37:12

now made to look like a criminal when

37:14

I've done nothing. So

37:16

all of this stuff that Can

37:19

be received as these

37:21

political act is personal Titus

37:25

is also the mind behind the Oscar

37:27

shortlisted documentary. Shut

37:30

up and paint The

37:32

film you're talking about is a Short

37:36

film that was shortlisted for an Oscar

37:38

but did not get nominated which is totally

37:40

fine. There's some really great

37:42

Documentaries out there right now that

37:44

are talking about some really important stuff. And so I'm excited

37:47

for them

37:49

But that film was

37:51

about this conversation that I was having with

37:53

a particular dealer Who was

37:56

trying to convince me that if

37:58

I would just stop talking

39:59

Even I, non-gamer that I am,

40:02

can recognize the explosive growth

40:04

of the gaming industry in the decades

40:07

since the release of Atari's Pong.

40:09

US consumers spent $56.6 billion

40:12

last year on the hobby.

40:16

And when we look worldwide, that

40:18

number explodes to $170 billion,

40:22

raking in more than the global

40:24

movie industry. Ain't nobody

40:26

going to the movies right now anyway. I'm

40:29

kidding, but gaming is massive.

40:32

And as it continues its cultural expansion and

40:34

dominance, questions of who video

40:36

games are made for, what types of gamers

40:38

should have access, and what that access

40:41

even looks like have emerged.

40:43

Happy to say that Grant Stoners

40:46

got some ideas on that.

40:48

He's an accessibility journalist who

40:50

documents and examines the video

40:52

game industry from a disabled perspective.

40:56

Now Grant's work has appeared in the Washington Post,

40:59

Wired, and IGN.

41:03

Let's start with how you got

41:05

into gaming. When

41:07

did that love for video games show

41:09

up for you? When I was

41:12

a young child, roughly

41:14

three

41:14

or four years old, I

41:17

was playing video games with my brother.

41:19

And at the time, my occupational

41:23

therapist encouraged my

41:25

parents to let me play games because

41:28

it was helping exercise my

41:30

fingers and my hands. And because

41:33

of that, I grew up playing games across

41:36

a variety of systems, which

41:38

not only fueled my love

41:40

for it, but helped keep my hands nimble.

41:43

So you talk about the therapeutic benefits

41:46

for your hands, but maybe you

41:48

can just give us the broadest definition

41:50

for you of what accessibility

41:53

means. What does it mean to say

41:56

that a game is accessible?

41:58

Accessibility.

41:59

is different depending on what

42:02

your disability is. For me,

42:04

it's being able to play with

42:07

as little barriers as possible. So

42:09

every game has certain goals

42:12

and accomplishments that you need to complete.

42:15

When you're disabled, you encounter

42:17

barriers that others don't experience,

42:20

whether through lack of controls,

42:23

difficulty with certain encounters.

42:26

And accessibility helps

42:29

alleviate those barriers so that

42:31

we can have the same experiences as

42:34

everyone else. You talk about having

42:36

the same experiences, but isn't

42:38

that kind of part of gaming that different

42:41

players really do experience

42:43

games differently?

42:45

It is, but if you spend

42:47

time on social media

42:49

and such, you'll see people actively

42:53

fight against that notion. But

42:55

in truth, as you said, everyone

42:58

experiences games differently. There

43:00

isn't a single right way

43:03

to play games. And that's

43:05

sort of the message that a lot

43:07

of my stories deal with, is that disabled

43:10

people want the same experiences

43:13

as everyone else. So we need

43:15

to continue pushing and

43:17

advocating so developers can make

43:20

their games as barrier free

43:22

as possible.

43:22

I love this language of barrier

43:25

free. Talk to me about

43:27

what is both simple and

43:30

complicated about making

43:32

games accessible.

43:34

As a player, as someone who

43:36

has regularly interviewed all

43:38

developers and other disabled

43:41

players, it's something as simple

43:43

as maybe adding customizable

43:46

controls so people can change

43:48

their buttons,

43:49

or perhaps something a bit more

43:52

complicated like difficulty

43:54

modes so that people can

43:56

seamlessly switch between

43:59

easy,

43:59

mode, maybe normal difficulty,

44:03

perhaps there's even varying

44:05

subtitle options that

44:07

you can use for deaf and hard of

44:10

hearing players. It all depends

44:13

on what the game is and

44:16

how developers want their

44:18

players to experience it. And

44:21

whenever they understand that, then

44:23

they can begin layering

44:26

accessibility throughout all processes

44:29

of the game development.

44:31

It may seem obvious,

44:34

but I want to ask anyway,

44:36

why does it matter? I mean, this isn't

44:39

about accessibility to

44:41

a restroom or to a workplace

44:44

or to a classroom. Why

44:46

should we care if games

44:49

are accessible?

44:51

So video games are

44:54

the most profitable

44:56

medium in the entire world.

44:59

They beat music, they

45:01

beat movies. And

45:04

then you consider that the

45:06

vast majority of people on

45:08

this earth play video games,

45:11

whether it's on your phone, a

45:14

simple computer game like Solitaire

45:16

or a Wurdle for

45:19

the New York Times,

45:21

or more complex games like

45:23

Call of Duty or say,

45:27

Elden Ring. If you're

45:30

preventing disabled

45:32

people from interacting

45:35

with the biggest medium, you're

45:37

effectively pushing them out

45:39

of society. You're

45:41

not allowing them to engage

45:43

in conversations

45:49

about public culture phenomenon.

45:51

You're not allowing them to

45:54

connect

45:55

with other individuals. You're not

45:58

allowing them to decompress

46:01

after a whole day.

46:04

So if we don't

46:05

open these games to disabled

46:08

players, what we're doing is we're effectively

46:11

shedding them out from the biggest medium.

46:14

I so appreciate

46:14

that answer, although I

46:16

am also absolutely tripping that

46:19

it is the most profitable

46:22

medium.

46:23

The newest Avatar movie

46:26

make over a billion dollars

46:28

within a few weeks, right? But

46:31

Call of Duty, with its newest

46:33

release this year, made

46:35

over a billion dollars in three

46:38

days.

46:39

And that again comes out at least

46:41

once every two years,

46:43

sometimes once every year.

46:45

I know that Call

46:47

of Duty World at war was

46:50

particularly difficult for you to play.

46:52

Can you talk about the accessibility

46:55

hack that you used?

46:56

That was sort of my accessibility

46:59

awakening, where it was the first time

47:02

that I was playing an online

47:04

game with

47:05

friends and I wasn't able to fully

47:08

compete alongside them. So

47:10

my brother taped a popsicle

47:13

stick to the back of my controller.

47:16

So with that modification, I was

47:18

then able to compete much

47:20

better. And it was sort of like

47:23

the first moment where I was like, oh,

47:26

maybe I do need

47:28

accessibility. Where'd you get the popsicle

47:30

fix? Oh, my freezer. Many

47:33

popsicles.

47:35

And every time one of them

47:37

would break, my dad

47:39

or my brother would start just

47:42

eating a popsicle

47:44

really fast so we can wash it

47:46

off and tape it to the controller.

47:49

We went through many popsicles. Grant

47:52

Stoner, thank you so

47:54

much for taking the time out to spend a little

47:57

time with us here on the takeaway. Thank you

47:59

again.

47:59

for having me. All right,

48:02

y'all, we're gonna go ahead and head out

48:04

now. But before we go,

48:06

just a few words about producer,

48:09

Morgan Givens. Morgan, I just have

48:11

to say, my main thought

48:13

at this moment, bro, is clearly you

48:16

should have been sitting in the co-host chair for

48:18

months. I

48:21

have loved revisiting these segments

48:23

with you.

48:24

And while we did this one for broadcast,

48:27

I feel like it's just kind of a glimpse into

48:29

precisely what you've brought to the takeaway

48:31

from the moment you arrived.

48:34

Your whole, full, fabulous,

48:36

brilliant, hilarious self.

48:40

And let me just speak for all of us

48:42

when I say that we have really

48:44

fallen head over

48:47

heels for the self that you are.

48:50

I am so grateful that you trust me

48:53

to deliver the gorgeous language

48:55

you write. And that you've given

48:57

me an opportunity to talk with people and

49:00

about issues that mean so

49:02

much to you. And that

49:04

by producing these stories as you do, you've

49:07

made all these people and ideas

49:10

and art and games matter

49:12

to all of us as well. But

49:15

Morgan, really, most of all, I just want you to know

49:18

that I am rooting for you for

49:20

freaking ever. And

49:22

I can't wait

49:24

to see what you imagine, what you create

49:27

and what you launch into the world.

49:29

And I can't wait to

49:31

live in the world that is changed by

49:33

what you do.

49:35

And Morgan, if you ever need someone to ride

49:37

Sidecar on the mic in a future project,

49:40

just call me up. I ain't gonna be nowhere but outside

49:42

with my chickens. Well,

49:46

listen, not you out here trying to make me cry thug

49:48

tears. But no,

49:51

I had told some friends shortly before I began

49:53

working here and working with you all that it

49:55

would be so cool to work with and learn

49:58

from Melissa Harris Perry. And then it's...

49:59

happened. So I'll

50:02

just say that it has been a privilege,

50:05

indeed an honor, to

50:07

truly learn and work with you every

50:09

day because I do learn something from you every day and I

50:11

deeply, deeply appreciate that. So thank

50:13

you.

50:15

All right, everybody. Thanks so much

50:17

to all of y'all for listening. I'm Melissa

50:19

Harris-Perry.

50:21

This is The Takeaway.