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episode is brought to you by eight sleep
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temperatures one of the main causes a poor
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this altitude I can run flat out for a
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ask you a question? No,
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I just need a question. I
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have a medical issue over a
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minute. Hello,
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boys and girls. Ladies
4:00
and germs, This is Tim Ferris Welcome
4:02
to another episode of the Tim Ferris
4:05
Show and this is one of my
4:07
favorite types of episodes of course. Ah,
4:09
speaking of world class performers of all
4:12
different disciplines all the time, but one
4:14
of my favorite people to ask for
4:16
advice is Seth. Godin. And
4:19
this his a walk in
4:21
talks which means certain I
4:23
were walking and talking while
4:25
we recorded desk and I
4:28
had many burning questions I
4:30
wanted to ask. He did
4:32
not fail to deliver a
4:34
lot of sage advice, tactical
4:36
practical wisdom and. What? More
4:39
can I say. The guy's a gem.
4:41
He delivers every time. Who is Seth
4:43
Godin? You might ask. Seth Godin is
4:45
the author of twenty one international bestsellers
4:47
that have changed the way people think
4:49
about work. His books have been translated
4:51
into thirty eight languages and says books
4:53
include Tribes, Purple Cow, Linchpin, The Dip,
4:56
and This Is Marketing Satirize one of
4:58
the most popular marketing blogs in the
5:00
world. Eighty five hundred eight
5:02
thousand five hundred plus daily blog post
5:04
put that into perspective and to of
5:07
is Ted Talks are among the most
5:09
popular of all time. He is the
5:11
founder of the old Mbs, the social
5:14
media pioneer Square Do and Yoyo Dine
5:16
one of the first internet companies. His
5:18
latest book is the Song of Significance.
5:21
A new manifesto for teams you
5:23
can find him. At. Seth godin.com
5:25
and you can find subs blog at
5:28
Sets.log so you can get above those
5:30
for a lot of resources. And I'm
5:32
gonna just reiterate why we did this
5:35
format the way we did it because
5:37
there's too much sitting in the world.
5:39
it's not good for you. we weren't
5:42
evolve to do it's and I am
5:44
trying to counteract the. trend
5:46
the impulse all the incentives to do
5:48
podcast in a fixed location this isn't
5:50
good for my health and it's certainly
5:53
not good for your health to force
5:55
it can see what that way so
5:57
i release experimenting with being out in
5:59
the doing something that we are
6:01
designed to do and that is walk.
6:03
So without further ado please enjoy my
6:06
wider engine conversation where I ask for
6:08
a lot of help from Seth Godin.
6:14
All right here we are so thank you again
6:17
for taking the time and
6:19
the subject suppose relates to
6:21
time, attention, all these good things
6:23
which is how to make Tim
6:26
Ferriss's incredibly long-form
6:29
writing shorter
6:31
or how those two things fundamentally are
6:33
different in terms of long and short.
6:35
I texted you asking if
6:37
there's any secret sauce any
6:39
tips or tricks for writing short blog posts because
6:42
I consider you the undisputed
6:44
king of consistently good
6:47
short blog posts and that kind
6:49
of uncorked all of this. So here
6:51
we are and I suppose
6:54
where I might want to start is with
6:56
our initial text thread and
6:58
one of the points that at least as
7:00
I read it seemed to resonate was treating
7:02
blog posts more as a question
7:06
than an answer or a
7:08
provocation rather than a prescription. Could
7:11
you expand on that a little bit because I
7:13
think it relates also to the posts that you
7:16
so kindly proofread where I may
7:19
have misinterpreted how best to think about
7:21
that. I would be
7:23
delighted to dive in. There are so
7:25
many places to start. I'm going to start with this. You
7:28
are a gifted and generous writer
7:30
and you have been since I
7:32
began tracking what you do and
7:34
blogging is inherently a generous
7:38
act because it's hard in
7:40
2024 to justify it as
7:42
a financial endeavor. You're
7:44
doing it to eliminate and
7:48
what does it mean to write in
7:50
this form? A short
7:52
story attributed to Ernie Hemingway
7:55
probably not. For sale
7:58
baby shoes never worn.
8:01
Six words, it's perfect. In
8:03
six words, your heart breaks.
8:07
That's not scalable,
8:10
practical, repeatable. You
8:12
can't sign up to write
8:14
six-word short stories that break people's
8:16
hearts every day because
8:20
that level of condensing, that level of
8:22
being able to get at the heart,
8:24
none of the words had more than
8:26
seven letters, none of the words have
8:28
more than two syllables. That's
8:31
magic, right? We can't repeatedly
8:33
do that. So when
8:35
we look at the form of a blog,
8:37
we say, well, you know, Seth's blog posts
8:39
have 100,000 words in them. All I
8:41
have to do is take my idea and make it shorter.
8:44
And when we try to do that, resistance
8:47
kicks in, press fields resistance, and we
8:49
say, but I need to clarify this
8:51
sentence and add a parenthetical to that
8:53
sentence or else I will be misunderstood.
8:56
So this first sentence
8:58
in this paragraph, which is
9:00
rich and detailed and recursive
9:02
and layered goes like this.
9:05
Growth agents have a
9:07
place in medicine parentheses,
9:09
some types of hypopopulatarianism,
9:11
wasting syndrome, diseases, surgical
9:13
care, etc. And
9:15
some sports effectively require them at higher
9:18
levels. But there are always trade-offs when
9:20
you turn on the dials on complex
9:22
hormonal cascades and feedback loops. Everything
9:25
in that is true. And someone could
9:27
study that sentence in college for
9:30
a month because there's layers
9:32
below layers, below layers. And
9:36
unfortunately, the blog reader
9:38
in general is not ready to
9:40
consume that level of condensation.
9:43
And so we
9:46
shouldn't even try because
9:48
that's not what a blog is
9:50
good at. What a blog is
9:53
good at is what Scott
9:55
McLeod taught us about comics.
9:57
Scott McLeod's book about comics
10:00
Which is a must read. I have
10:02
read it or understanding colleges or that
10:04
I rather the understanding Alex Thank you
10:06
again. The key lesson
10:08
is this comics work
10:10
because something happens between
10:12
the panels, right? In.
10:14
Palo One Superman sees a problem and panels
10:16
to Superman is with the villain. We don't
10:19
see us who dragged out from panel one
10:21
panel to that happened in our brain. So.
10:24
The. Reason: Bad Comics and bad graphic
10:26
novels Or bad. Is. Because the
10:29
creator didn't understand that they didn't let our
10:31
brain to the leaping they just decided to
10:33
add a lot of pictures were story that
10:35
would be better in words. So
10:37
what a blog post does is it
10:39
says here's a sketch over here and
10:42
now I'm over there. You
10:44
figure out how I got from here to there
10:46
and by you figuring it out, the reader. You.
10:48
Will grow, You'll explore. You will be
10:50
a voice in this dialogue is is
10:53
not. Just me. Talking.
10:56
So. When. You ask me? To
10:59
review your writing. Some people are tempted.
11:02
To proofread And they don't really
11:04
mean proofreads The mean copy at
11:06
it. And com net is It means.
11:08
Six. The errors. And.
11:12
What? I'm trying to do when I'm editing
11:14
of friends work is say. Are they
11:16
even asking the right question? Cause thing is with
11:18
zone error sit on. My help to do that.
11:21
And so here. When I'm
11:24
trying to say is what is this
11:26
post for. And what it's
11:28
for, I think. Is the help?
11:30
Someone who's not paying attention to
11:32
realize that there are things they
11:35
might wanna think about? And
11:37
seven is a lot. So.
11:39
What I pitched back to his this is
11:41
actually seven blog posts in a series. And.
11:44
What? The first one says is you
11:46
know there's some things you're not thinking about the you might
11:48
wanna think about. Here's one of them. And.
11:52
The idea if I to say to
11:54
somebody. Biceps or temporary
11:56
baseball helmet sizes are forever.
11:59
Davis. Like that immediately and
12:01
then they're like. Moon.
12:03
Was and then they wanna think about
12:05
what you meant by that. It's a
12:08
haiku. It's a puzzle. It's a shadow.
12:10
Where's the light and what is being
12:12
reflected? So. Now you've gotten
12:14
permission to tell me. In. A
12:17
paragraph or two what you meant and then
12:19
I can. You get to see a downtown.
12:21
An honor and I say dancer. And.
12:24
That is the form. That is what. Blogs.
12:27
Are good at. But. And
12:29
I'm going and my rant now. Does. Sound
12:31
side. Is you will
12:33
be misunderstood. And that is why
12:35
there are no comments on my blog. Because.
12:38
People who misunderstood a post would then
12:40
respond by making me feel bad so
12:43
I would override and over right so
12:45
they wouldn't do that anymore. And.
12:47
Then there was in blog anymore. So how to stop? And.
12:50
Basically what I'm saying is if you don't get
12:52
it asked a friend. And if they
12:54
don't get it either, come back tomorrow. We can
12:56
just gus a new thing. And.
12:59
I think the king of this. Is.
13:01
Actually, the magic of Xkcd. Which.
13:04
Is a blog in graphic for. Yeah.
13:06
It's outstanding. I agree on that and
13:08
as you're talking to, things come to
13:11
mind for me and maybe as a
13:13
backdrop the. Impetus. For
13:15
a lot of this for me at
13:17
least is. Number. One to get
13:19
back into writing and to experiment with a
13:21
nice form, a new style, a new approach
13:24
to writing, And. Number.
13:27
Two to explore ideas To explore ideas
13:29
in various ways to clarify my own
13:31
thinking. Yup, which ends up happening in
13:33
this short. P C No biological free
13:36
lunch is that you Fred I suppose
13:38
My question Not copy editors which is
13:40
certainly. A. Very different thing in
13:43
this particular case if you are
13:45
writing this. Would you be inclined
13:47
to make it a series? Where would you. Make
13:50
each of these a stand alone. Peace.
13:54
In other words, of those seven bullets.
13:56
As you're thinking through not just the word
13:58
count I, this is. my mistake, where I basically
14:00
said, okay, instead of writing a 5,000 word blog post,
14:04
I'm going to make it less than 1,000, but I'm going to
14:06
try to still somehow get all
14:09
of the concepts into this shorter form. Seems
14:11
like there's a conceptual constraint
14:15
that makes things powerful, but would you take
14:17
those seven, make them into an interrelated series?
14:20
Would you make them all kind of independent
14:22
after you introduce them in this one piece?
14:25
How would you think about divvying
14:27
this up conceptually for yourself?
14:29
I should also just add one more thing, which is
14:32
fundamental to all of these observations and questions
14:35
and goals and dreams of mine is how
14:37
do I make this sustainable for me? Which
14:40
is part of the feedback you gave
14:43
in the comments on the draft of this
14:45
blog post was I'm paraphrasing, but if you
14:47
try to just make the 5,000 words thing,
14:49
1,000 words, it's going
14:51
to be exhausting for you and most
14:53
likely also exhausting for your research, which
14:55
I agree with. It
14:58
is about genre. My
15:00
blog is a long running series. It has
15:02
been a series of 8,500 daily posts. If
15:07
I was starting today, I have to figure
15:09
out what is the genre of my
15:11
work. If you think about David
15:13
Letterman's TV show, he
15:16
needed to have a series called
15:18
Stupid Pet Tricks because the show wasn't
15:20
Stupid Pet Tricks, but there was a
15:22
regular recurring Stupid Pet Trick. The
15:25
show was a series of
15:27
David Letterman shows. If
15:30
your genre as you reenter
15:32
blogging is there
15:35
is a post from Tim on a
15:37
regular basis and all of them are
15:40
about the things we put
15:42
into our body and performance, then you're
15:44
fine. If that's not the case,
15:47
then the question is when
15:49
the reader shows up, do you need to do
15:51
a lot of throat clearing to get them back
15:53
on track for what you are writing about today?
15:57
Since you're starting with largely a blank slate,
15:59
I said well, if the
16:01
first seven of these are in
16:03
this series, then
16:05
you only have to clear your throat once on
16:08
the eighth day and say, okay, now we're talking
16:10
about this and you could do one of
16:12
those or six of those or 12 of those. But
16:15
people do better if they
16:17
understand that they're going to see Dune
16:19
not read the power broker. Those are different genres
16:21
and you need to give them a hint as
16:23
to what they're going to get. I
16:25
like the idea of recognizing
16:28
that my tendency is to, how should
16:31
I be generous with myself, be
16:34
comprehensive, kind of say over
16:36
complicated, but let's be nice, try
16:38
to be comprehensive. I would rather,
16:41
as we talked about earlier, I'm walking by tennis courts
16:44
right now and I remember taking a tennis lesson. I
16:46
kept hitting the ball into the net and the coach
16:48
said to me, he's like, you can do anything. Now,
16:51
next step, you can hit the ball
16:53
straight up in the air, you can hit a home
16:55
run, the one thing you cannot do is hit it
16:57
into the net. I was like, okay, I got it.
17:00
I kind of feel like I need to give myself
17:02
some marching orders like that for writing to counterbalance
17:05
some of my tendencies. I
17:08
like the idea of writing self-sustaining,
17:13
independent pieces to restrict myself from the
17:15
desire to say, you know what, I'm
17:17
not going to overwrite this, but it's
17:19
going to be part one in a
17:21
12-part series, which is maybe a workaround
17:24
for tricking myself. I'm going to interrupt
17:26
you for a little bit. Please do.
17:29
You are extraordinarily skilled
17:31
at not over-complicating
17:33
your writing or your
17:35
narratives. That's how you got
17:38
this far, that there's very
17:41
little that you have published where you
17:43
were the primary researcher and the breakthrough
17:45
creator of the original science. What you've
17:47
done is helped people simplify,
17:51
understand. What's
17:53
happening here is resistance. You
17:56
are adding parenthetical to
17:58
protect yourself. So,
18:01
what I'm pushing you to do is
18:04
to come up with boundaries so
18:06
that you can say, I did a
18:08
good job and ship
18:11
the work. Now that could involve
18:13
having very, like
18:16
the rules of haiku, very
18:18
significant rules where you
18:20
must have a tagline, a come
18:22
online that's less than 18 words and
18:25
you're allowed to have two footnote links but the
18:27
rest of it has to be a narrative that
18:29
you would say to somebody on the telephone. And
18:33
instead of typing them, you are just recording each
18:35
one and letting someone on your team
18:37
text them. If that would be
18:39
the model, you would have to let
18:41
go of it because you only have a five minute
18:43
phone call, you're going to say it as clearly as
18:45
you can, you can add two links when you're done
18:48
and it's done, you got to ship it, right?
18:52
But that's not letting the reader down because
18:54
you've announced to them that that's what this
18:56
is, the genre matters.
18:58
I asked you one question related
19:01
to how you know when
19:03
you're done and I'd
19:06
love for you to answer that again
19:08
because I suspect I'll have some follow up questions
19:11
and either before or after
19:13
that, I would love to know for yourself
19:15
what type of rules
19:18
you have imposed or constraints
19:20
or boundaries when
19:22
you have had your better
19:25
streaks of writing, let's just say. All
19:27
right, I'll do the first part first because it's easier. You
19:29
asked, how do you decide or know
19:32
when a post is done? And I
19:34
texted back, I don't. That's
19:38
the point. And then I wrote, imagine
19:41
how hard it would be to have
19:43
a conversation or even a text thread
19:45
if we had to think through whether
19:47
our turn to talk was over before
19:50
we stopped talking, right?
19:54
So, my model, my ritual is I
19:56
write blog posts in advance and then the night
19:58
before I review the I rewrite them,
20:01
I delete them, so if I
20:03
get the stomach flu, there's still gonna be a
20:05
blog post tomorrow. And when
20:08
I rewrite a blog post, the
20:10
rule is you get
20:12
points if you make it shorter, you don't get points
20:14
if you make it longer. And
20:17
if I can't boil it down
20:20
more than it already is, and it's not
20:23
deliberately deceptive, it's
20:25
done because the purpose is tell
20:28
people something they already sort of know in
20:31
a way that they would be grateful for
20:33
the chance to forward to other people. Do
20:36
you say that one more time, Seth? That seems
20:38
important. If I can show up with
20:40
something in your bones, you know
20:42
to be true
20:44
or interesting or worth thinking about,
20:47
but I can say it in a way that
20:49
would benefit you if you could share it
20:51
with your friends and colleagues, that's
20:54
a great blog post. Benefit
20:56
you in what possible senses? I
20:58
will give you a trivial one
21:00
first, which is more
21:02
than once I have blogged about how stupid it
21:05
is that there's a pull down menu when you're
21:07
checking out of a shop and
21:09
there's all 50 states listed. That
21:11
isn't helping anybody. We have AI that
21:14
can speak English. It knows how to
21:16
turn NY into New York. We
21:19
do this because 40
21:23
years ago or whenever the web was young, 25 years ago,
21:25
it was a hack
21:28
that made life slightly easier for certain
21:30
programmers and it's just been sticking around
21:32
ever since. There are people
21:35
like me, it really vexes. If
21:37
I say this and you are one of those vexing
21:40
people, now you can forward it to your webmaster and
21:42
say, see, I said we shouldn't do this and so
21:44
I just gave you a useful
21:46
thing to share. It's
21:48
trivial but that's sort of the
21:50
idea. If
21:53
you have a brother or son
21:55
or a colleague or daughter or
21:57
sister who would benefit from
22:00
insight that you think I'm on to, you're going
22:02
to forward it to them and you're going to
22:04
have a connection with them because I opened the
22:06
door and made it possible for you to do
22:08
it. Every once in a while, I do
22:10
post something about Claude AI that you didn't
22:13
know about. And you go, oh great, I
22:15
use Claude. Thank you very much. But
22:17
that's not really the service my blog offers.
22:20
The service my blog offers is not I'm
22:22
breaking news, it's I am
22:24
trying to illuminate things that already
22:26
resonate with people. Not
22:29
to add too many parenthetical to this conversation,
22:31
but what is Claude AI? Claude.ai, I can't
22:33
believe I know something you don't
22:35
know. Claude.ai
22:40
is significantly
22:42
better than chat GPT
22:44
at certain functions. And
22:47
I think part of it is because it
22:49
doesn't read the web or it says it doesn't read the
22:51
web. So it's not easily distracted. But
22:53
I'm launching a software project in
22:55
six weeks and the business plan
22:58
took more than a year and a whole bunch
23:00
of contributors, it's 40 pages long. And
23:03
I uploaded the business plan
23:05
to Claude. And I said,
23:07
please review this highlight contradictions,
23:09
paradoxes and obvious errors. And
23:12
in less than 10 seconds, it wrote me
23:14
a page and a half MBA quality memo
23:17
that nailed it. It just nailed it, nailed it, and
23:20
I was like, okay, you
23:22
got me. That's great. That's great. So I use
23:24
Claude.ai every day to read
23:28
other people's writing, my writing, critique it, give
23:30
me insight, you could send your post to
23:32
Claude and it might not have the insight
23:34
I had, but it would definitely have something
23:36
to say. Incredible.
23:38
All right. And
23:40
parentheses, what are some other elements
23:43
or practices or
23:45
constraints or fill in
23:47
the blank that have helped you
23:49
with consistency in terms of blog
23:54
writing? Because I have attempted
23:56
and failed a number of...
24:00
times to build up momentum
24:02
writing shorter posts. And
24:04
I think a lot of what we've already discussed will help. Is
24:06
there anything else that you would add to the,
24:09
it helps my consistency streak
24:11
category? Well, I would
24:13
say two things. First, I think you're talking about
24:15
consistency in terms of showing up
24:17
at the ballpark every day. Cadence,
24:20
yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I'll do that
24:22
one second. The first one, I have never met
24:24
Larry David, but I'm guessing that
24:26
there are some days that Larry David
24:28
is actually a nice, thoughtful person. And
24:32
there is a character named Larry
24:35
David as well. So
24:37
the person who writes my blog is a
24:39
character named Seth Godin. And
24:42
I am the only person who has ever written my blog.
24:44
I'm the only person who ever will write my
24:46
blog. But when I am doing it, I am
24:49
playing the character named Seth Godin. So
24:51
if it doesn't sound like me, if
24:54
it's just me authentically being tired
24:56
or annoyed, I don't
24:59
publish those. Because
25:02
that's not what my character would
25:04
do. This is not me exposing
25:06
some mystical, mythical
25:08
Seth Godin to the world. It's me
25:10
portraying the character Seth Godin because it's
25:13
a service. And then the second thing
25:15
is streaks are usually used against
25:17
us by software. And
25:19
if they make you feel bad, it's not a helpful
25:21
thing. But I write blog
25:24
posts every single day whether I use them or
25:26
not. And I learned that from
25:28
Isaac Asimov when I worked with him all those years ago.
25:31
If you know that tomorrow morning
25:34
you have to start typing
25:36
tonight when you go to sleep or
25:38
today when you're walking around, you will
25:40
be noticing things so that
25:43
you have something to type. And
25:46
I have enough in reserve that I don't
25:48
have to do it every day. But I
25:50
do it every day because I eat lunch
25:52
every day and because I take a shower
25:54
every day. A few follow-ups.
25:56
So the first is related to the playing the character
25:59
of Seth Godin. Sounds like.
26:01
If. I heard you crackly you're
26:03
saying. You're. Writing should
26:05
reflect is. How
26:07
you feel in the world at the
26:09
time that you're writing. My hearing that
26:11
correctly. Know. It's the
26:14
opposite of that see opposite there's no should
26:16
hear. First of all, If someone
26:18
wants to write a blog that's just
26:20
the unvarnished version of them in the
26:22
moment, go for it out. Camera Log
26:25
Police. What I'm saying is I
26:27
can read a blog post I wrote fourteen years
26:29
ago. And. I.
26:32
Might not right the same one today, but it
26:34
rhymes with the one I would write today. Because.
26:38
There's. A voice. That.
26:40
This. Character has that I am very
26:42
comfortable with. I did the first thing that
26:44
all writers do. When. I got such a
26:47
pity which is I s it right like me. And
26:49
I was pleased to discover it.
26:52
Was. A parody of me. And.
26:55
Being. Able to be parodied is
26:57
a really good sign. Move
26:59
And that's what. It
27:02
is to have this voice is to say.
27:04
I could exaggerated and six different directions
27:06
and people could tell I would be
27:08
partying ants. By. Blight.
27:11
You. Know the Peanuts comic strip? Charles
27:14
Cel studies every single day and
27:16
it's very hard to tell which
27:18
decade. A. Peanut strip is from.
27:21
Totally. And that's that's what I'm after.
27:23
Said. This to unpack them will do
27:25
more. I know we've talked before or
27:28
I should say I bass and listen
27:30
to you discuss how the authenticity strategizing
27:32
single months is also not always but
27:35
often very misplaced and just kind of
27:37
over values this over sharing. what are
27:39
the things that make it. Sets.
27:42
The character set the character. It. Is
27:45
it eighty percent? Voice that
27:47
you dogs. Such. To. Jazz
27:50
you Be Deacon Everyday and parody you
27:52
would have the other ingredients that making
27:54
South The character who writes on South
27:57
Swag. You. Know I've not. Ever.
28:00
Push myself to name them because
28:02
seeing as forgetting the name of
28:04
what one sees. By. Her
28:06
the Us. I guess I'd
28:08
highlight a couple things. The first one
28:10
is. I try to begin from
28:13
a place of the benefit of the
28:15
out of there probably aren't bad people
28:17
there says situation said cause people to
28:19
do things that. Are troubling. And.
28:22
A level of optimism to go with it.
28:24
I tried to. Reduce
28:27
ideas. To. Their
28:30
essence with becoming hyperbolic.
28:33
Because. The Voices of
28:35
Social Media. Amped
28:37
up the hyperbolic part. That's
28:40
not a simplification, that's an
28:42
exaggeration. Rights I tried to.
28:45
Eliminate. Parent.
28:47
That a cause unless I really have no
28:49
choice, So. I.
28:51
Will. Avoid saying something
28:54
like. All. Tall people
28:56
are very brave. Because.
28:58
That's ridiculous. But. I will
29:00
not. Right Tall people are brave Parentheses
29:02
except for this person. This person. This
29:05
person in this person Because now it's
29:07
not worth reading. Crisis.
29:09
Surface a diversion assertion at
29:11
the beginning that creates tension.
29:14
And then a release. Of
29:16
that tension that lands and
29:18
idea so. The shortest blog
29:20
posts ever wrote which I'm really proud
29:23
of. His. First. Line is.
29:25
You. Don't need more time. So.
29:28
That's an assertion. It's controversial,
29:31
people who feel overwhelmed. Want.
29:34
To challenge it. And. Then for
29:36
delivery is. You. Just need
29:38
to decide. So. That flipped
29:40
upside down. Takes the blame
29:42
off the system in the people who
29:44
are. Make you busy and put it
29:47
right back. I knew. Giving. You
29:49
agency. And authority
29:51
and responsibility. To simply.
29:53
Decide. And then get back
29:55
to what needs to get done. And so
29:58
I'm just a few words. That's
30:00
an example of. A short Seth
30:02
Godin blog posts. And. A
30:04
longer one. Is. One where
30:07
I will try to teach somebody
30:09
details about something they didn't know.
30:12
But frame. It. In.
30:14
A way that they're comfortable with because that's how
30:16
they might have framed it as well. Let
30:19
me ask a. Quick. Question. Or maybe
30:21
that I've. Cut. Back on
30:23
my caffeine to significantly but. You
30:26
don't need more time, you just need to decide
30:28
what are people decided? Fuck.
30:31
folks. Who say. I'm.
30:33
Going to figure out which cause I want
30:35
to apply to soon. I diseases do more
30:37
research. I just needed a minimum. I got
30:40
his rights, close the open lives, get it
30:42
done, Make it's yeah exactly. Where.
30:44
Whom I make one sense. Just.
30:49
A quick thanks to one of our sponsors and will be right
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up I. The hit. I'm sure I've as
32:01
soon as I apologize, but I can't. Remember.
32:04
The answers we have discussed it. What are
32:06
some other things you picked up from Isaac
32:08
Asimov? me discuss demigod. Insisted a
32:10
lot of be boy considering what. What?
32:13
Are other things he absorbed are observed. With.
32:15
Isaac. Isaac was in his
32:17
seventies. I was twenty four and a
32:19
half. Maybe twenty five. He was one
32:21
of my first part x it was one of his last
32:24
ones. And we would hang out.
32:26
His apartment near Lincoln Center and I
32:28
got to spend time with. This was.
32:31
The. Thing about Isaac Asimov is
32:33
the character of Isaac Asimov
32:35
was in Know It All.
32:37
Egomaniac for the time Today he
32:40
would be seen as humble. But.
32:42
He. Published. Four
32:44
hundred bucks. He invented the modern
32:47
conception of a robot. He wrote.
32:49
Seminal. Work. On
32:51
an enormous number topics. A definitive book about
32:53
the bible. I mean all over the place.
32:57
But. In person. He.
33:00
Was. Humble. And.
33:02
Funny. And. As a
33:04
project partner. He. Was company
33:06
lately? Hands off He spent.
33:09
Time. With me to make
33:11
sure I understood the boundaries
33:13
of what. And. Isaac Asimov
33:15
project was. And then
33:18
he said. Go. For. It. And
33:20
he didn't micromanage us thing cause
33:23
he trusted me. And my.
33:25
Understanding of where. The.
33:27
Robots Universe could go. And.
33:31
It spoiled me because I thought that
33:33
was gonna happen again and again and
33:35
again. That ended up. I got Stanley
33:37
Caplan into the test prep book business
33:39
and it took seven years. And.
33:41
By the time we publish the book Stanley was
33:44
long gone from the project is he had sold
33:46
the company. But. talk about micromanaging
33:48
with a well no name so i'm one
33:50
ended a selection was isaac asimov as the
33:53
other i was sally kaplan go figure that
33:55
you stir event as moths makes you think
33:57
a little bit of rick rubin where's right
34:00
out of the gate, LL Cool J, BC
34:02
boys. He's like, oh, this is easy. This
34:04
is how it works. Fantastic. What was the
34:06
project that you were working with, Isaac
34:08
on? Okay, so before DVDs,
34:11
lots of people had VCRs. And-
34:13
Yes, I remember. A company called
34:15
Parker Brothers took their board game Clue and
34:17
they made it into a VCR game. And
34:20
it was dumb. And it sold more than a
34:22
million copies at $40. Wow,
34:24
good for them. And
34:27
so Peter Alaka, the greatest game
34:29
designer of his generation and I,
34:32
invented a murder mystery game you could play
34:34
on your VCR. So there
34:36
was a movie shot with real union actors
34:39
in a set in New York City. It
34:41
lasted 38 minutes and took
34:43
place on another planet about robots and
34:45
murder and detectives. And six
34:48
times during the short film,
34:51
a screen came up and said, hit the pause button
34:54
and play a card. So you would hit pause and
34:56
you had a stack of six cards and
34:59
each card had two sides and you
35:01
would throw a card down and it
35:03
would be a clue. Like there
35:05
are no fingerprints on the gun, which might
35:08
mean it was a robot because robots don't
35:10
have fingerprints, right? And on the other
35:12
side of the card, it said there were fingerprints on the
35:14
gun. So now you know it's not a robot. So it
35:16
turned out that two to the power of six
35:19
is 156 or whatever. And
35:22
if you added up the code numbers on
35:24
the top of each card you played, it
35:26
told you which page in the answer booklet
35:28
had the answer to that thread through the
35:30
game. So you could
35:32
play the game hundreds of times and it would be
35:35
a different outcome each time. And
35:37
we sold the lights to Kodak and
35:39
Cisco and Ebert gave it two thumbs up and
35:42
advertised it on the Olympics like the whole thing.
35:45
It was fascinating. Wow. Where
35:48
were you in your career that
35:50
that opportunity presented itself where you found that
35:53
opportunity? What had led up to that? Outside
35:56
of what you just described. So before I did
35:58
that, I had only one real job. and
36:00
my job was at Spinnaker Software. We
36:02
invented educational computer games and I built
36:04
the first brand of illustrated
36:07
computer adventure games. I worked with Arthur
36:09
C. Clarke and Ray Bradbury and Michael
36:11
Crichton. I got rights to games. I
36:13
worked with Byron Price. He had a
36:15
team of programmers and I had a
36:17
team of programmers. We did The Wizard
36:19
of Oz and I loved
36:21
it. I could still be doing it to this day
36:24
but the world changed and I was out on my
36:26
own after a couple years as
36:28
a book packager. Peter
36:30
and I knew each other and
36:33
the momentum from the interactive game
36:35
thing led me to
36:37
Isaac's editor and no
36:40
one had ever asked for the rights. The rights
36:42
weren't expensive and then once I had the rights,
36:44
I found Kodak and Kodak
36:47
was able to put up the money so
36:49
we could build this thing and
36:51
own part of the back end. If
36:54
I zoom out, I have a macro level question
36:56
for you which has been on my mind a lot, if
36:58
you don't mind, which is a question
37:01
of how you choose next chapters
37:04
or projects because I'm coming up on the
37:06
10th anniversary of the podcast next April, so
37:08
in a few months and I
37:11
figured that would be a good
37:13
time as any to pause and reflect on things and
37:15
think about where I want to go. I love
37:18
doing the podcast. I don't plan on stopping it but there
37:20
are a lot of trends driving
37:22
it towards effectively turning
37:25
podcasts into six location television shows
37:27
and I don't have much desire to do that.
37:29
I don't want to be contrarian just for the
37:31
sake of being contrarian, that's a stone trap or
37:34
set of traps but
37:36
I know you've been very deliberate for
37:38
instance in choosing not to start a
37:41
dozen startups and in
37:43
favor of choosing to spend your
37:45
time on other things. How do you choose
37:48
or think about next chapters or
37:50
what advice might you give
37:52
me as I contemplate the what's
37:54
next type of question?
37:57
I think it's very kind of you
37:59
to say I'm good at it. I don't
38:01
think I'm good at it but because I'm sort
38:03
of in public and I do it in a
38:05
certain way, it's noted. I did
38:07
five years of akimbo. It was in the
38:09
top 1% of all podcasts and then I
38:11
just stopped and I stopped
38:14
not because I didn't love it. I did
38:16
love it. I stopped because if I kept
38:18
doing it, there's something else I wouldn't do
38:20
instead and creating
38:23
a vacuum is
38:25
required so that I
38:28
will do the hard work of filling the
38:30
vacuum. But if I just keep
38:32
doing the thing, then
38:34
there is no vacuum. Sometimes
38:37
the technology changes. That's why Spinnaker
38:39
went away. That's why you couldn't
38:42
keep making VCR games. It's
38:44
why my head start in the CD-ROM
38:46
business was worthless because CD-ROMs went away.
38:48
I'd liked in every
38:51
time I did this being a pioneer in
38:53
a new media space because that's for me
38:55
the funnest spot and then when
38:57
the technology changes, I got to move on. But podcast
39:00
technology is never going to change. I mean,
39:02
you're noting there's a change in the
39:05
production format and that is a change. So
39:07
in my case, what I'm trying to do
39:10
is not maximize my
39:13
income per hour spent nor
39:15
am I trying to maximize the size of my
39:18
audience. What I'm trying to maximize
39:20
is are the people I'm
39:22
serving glad
39:24
that I did, that I showed up to
39:26
solve an interesting problem? And two,
39:29
as I build the stack of things on the bookshelf
39:31
behind me, can I point to them
39:33
and say that was interesting and generous and I'm glad
39:35
I did it. And
39:38
that's part of a limited attention span theater.
39:40
So it's not for everybody. But
39:43
my whole point of view is that life is projects.
39:45
It is not a job. And
39:47
when you stop the podcast
39:49
and created that vacuum, did you
39:51
already have something warming
39:54
up in the batting cage that was
39:56
pending that you need to create that vacuum for? Or
39:58
did you create the vacuum? and then wait
40:00
for something to get pulled. Not to
40:03
strain the metaphor, but she could see the idea.
40:05
No, you're not straining it. If there is something
40:07
pending, it's not a vacuum. There have been times
40:09
when something so good came along, I
40:12
did it and then had to remove things so I could
40:14
do it. When a few of
40:16
us started Squidoo, which was one of the
40:18
first social networks, I had to completely reorganize
40:20
my life because we built the 40th biggest
40:22
website in the US with only eight employees.
40:25
So we were busy. This is
40:27
not what I'm talking about. I am
40:29
talking about an actual uncomfortable vacuum
40:32
where you feel like you're never gonna work again, where
40:35
nothing can possibly be worth what
40:37
you gave up. And
40:39
that's hard to do. Yeah,
40:42
it is hard to do. Just
40:44
to put a microscope on that,
40:47
I have as means as backstory,
40:51
done this for periods of time and
40:53
have found it deeply, deeply uncomfortable, sometimes
40:56
fruitful, oftentimes not terribly fruitful, in
40:58
part, I think, because when I
41:00
create that vacuum, I don't know
41:02
if the best way to embrace
41:05
the vacuum is to basically just stare at the wall and
41:07
watch a paint dryer or to do something else and my
41:09
mind just kind of folds in on itself. You
41:12
create the vacuum and then what do the
41:14
next few weeks look like in terms of
41:16
how you spend your time day to day
41:18
or week to week? I think a fundamental
41:20
difference between you and me, there are so
41:22
many of them, but one of them as
41:24
I am here talking to what, the world
41:26
tango champion. Former world record holder, long time
41:28
ago, yes. Is the
41:31
only thing I have a
41:33
world record in is being
41:36
part of the largest co-author book signing
41:38
in history in which me and 400
41:40
other people all signed our book at
41:43
the same time. Because I
41:45
am not a high performer, I
41:47
am interesting. And being interesting
41:50
is really important to me, but
41:52
I am not holding myself to
41:54
the standard you hold yourself in so
41:56
many ways. And so I
41:58
could imagine. That. The
42:01
thing that gives me comfort. Might.
42:03
Not make you happy. right? For.
42:05
Sure, I. Agree with all of
42:07
that and had is that difference? Translate
42:10
what you'd do in the weeks following
42:12
creating. The. Vacuum after say
42:14
stop and podcast. So I guess you
42:16
have activities that you're still carrying sword
42:18
Not like you're completely idol you're writing.
42:20
so yeah, presumably. If someone
42:22
looked at me, Funny.
42:24
Outside I think that they
42:27
would see that my days
42:29
aren't. That. Different. I'm
42:31
not sipping public. Work.
42:34
Because. I don't ship junk. But.
42:36
I am. Internally. Creating
42:39
lots of mediocre work, And.
42:42
Basically creating stroppy both and say what would
42:44
this be like and then what would that
42:46
be like in here's this thing and I've
42:48
sat with by sixty or eighty white laser
42:50
cutter and I cut this thing our way.
42:52
think a that. And. That.
42:57
Invention. Cycle. Is.
43:00
Joyful! Better. To
43:02
have rather because. I. Also
43:04
need the satisfaction sipping the work
43:06
and not giving into resistance. So
43:08
what I'm doing? When I was
43:11
a book packager. We sold. Hundred
43:13
and twenty bucks in ten years, a book a
43:16
month. But I had more than eight hundred bucks
43:18
on my hard drive. Ready to go, not finished,
43:20
but to pay five. Pace proposals. Because.
43:23
The only way to have a was finished proposal
43:25
for me is have an unfinished one the you
43:27
didn't ship. What is it on?
43:29
This is probably fundamental question I should have
43:31
asked earlier, but. What
43:33
you get from writing. And
43:36
having written as consistently as you have
43:38
been, do what is the pay off
43:40
Like, Why do that? Oh, he's a
43:42
big. Payoff is simple. Not in
43:45
terms of equities stock value, but in
43:47
terms of. The. Noise in my head. The
43:49
biggest benefit is. I. Will be
43:52
writing tomorrow because it's Friday, not because
43:54
I've written the perfect blog post. That.
43:57
every single day something good published
43:59
by me because I decided that
44:01
24 years ago, not
44:04
because I have reconsidered each
44:06
day whether this one is good enough.
44:10
And even if no one read my
44:12
blog, I would still do it. And
44:14
I'm very fortunate that people give me the benefit
44:16
of the doubt knowing that
44:19
I am not guaranteeing this is the best thing I ever wrote
44:21
and they're still willing to look at it. So
44:23
that's lovely. In terms of
44:26
my professional practice, again,
44:30
back to genre, having a
44:33
cinecure, a platform where
44:36
for a long time if you type blog into Google,
44:38
I was the first match because
44:40
I just showed up more than
44:42
just about anybody. There's a lot
44:44
of value to saying, this is my lane and
44:46
you can count on me in this lane. And
44:50
for someone who is as peripatetic
44:52
as I in their creative
44:54
pursuits, having one of those
44:57
turned out to be a really useful thing. You
45:00
mentioned a word that I don't recognize but
45:02
I love the sound of, cinecure. What is
45:04
that? Yes. It's a safe
45:06
haven, a niche, a place to hide, a
45:08
fortress. What a great word. Yeah.
45:12
All right. Mental note to use cinecure.
45:14
Well, I don't want to
45:16
take up a ton of
45:18
time here, Seth. This is all incredibly, incredibly helpful. This
45:20
is the best part of my day. And I know
45:22
that you're not publishing this as written,
45:24
but I just want to say, for the people
45:27
who were wondering what's in
45:29
this magical thing you wrote,
45:31
it includes the line, like
45:33
Patagonian toothfish has become Chilean
45:35
sea bass on fashionable menus
45:37
worldwide. Right there.
45:40
That's gold, Jerry. That's his gold.
45:43
And so you need to
45:45
liberate these things and explain to
45:47
people what the ... I know
45:50
what you're talking about, but the
45:52
fact is that entire species are
45:55
becoming extinct because somebody figured out
45:57
a clever way to market an
45:59
animal. animal that we eat, there's a lot to
46:01
be said about that one little riff and you have
46:03
40 of them in
46:05
one post. Thanks, man. Yeah, the no
46:08
biological free lunch. It's one of those
46:10
things that I've said so many times
46:12
to friends in conversation and I was
46:14
following like, you know what, if
46:17
not for any other reason than I am tired
46:19
of repeating this Gettysburg address
46:21
speech to every wayward friend who calls
46:23
me up about to consume really potent
46:26
drugs. I have some of those. If
46:28
you go to Seth's stop blog and
46:30
type advice for authors, there
46:35
are two posts with the same title because
46:37
that's the I wasn't being clear
46:39
that I wrote a year and a half apart
46:41
and they have each like a dozen
46:43
or 15 bullet points and now I
46:45
have a fig and superhuman that
46:47
I can call up if when someone
46:49
sends me a note a friend or whatever I can
46:51
say, oh, I've already thought about this question. Here you
46:54
go. I love it. Hey
46:59
guys, this is Tim again. Just one more
47:01
thing before you take off and that is
47:04
five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a
47:06
short email from me every Friday that provides
47:08
a little fun before the weekend between
47:11
one and a half and two million people
47:13
subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short
47:15
newsletter called five bullet Friday. Easy to sign
47:17
up, easy to cancel. It
47:19
is basically a half page that I send
47:22
out every Friday to share the coolest
47:24
things I've found or discovered or have started
47:26
exploring over that week. It's kind of
47:28
like my diary of cool things. It
47:30
often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading,
47:33
albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of
47:35
tech tricks and so on that get
47:38
sent to me by my friends, including
47:40
a lot of podcasts, guests and these
47:42
strange esoteric things end up in my
47:44
field and then I test them and
47:47
then I share them with you. So
47:49
if that sounds fun, again, it's very short,
47:52
a little tiny bite of goodness before you
47:54
head off for the weekend, something to think
47:56
about. If you'd like to try it
47:58
out, just go to www.hind.blog slash www.hind.blog. Friday. Type
48:00
that into your browser, tim.blog
48:02
slash Friday. Drop in your email
48:04
and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for
48:07
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