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#728: Seth Godin — Coaching Tim on Overcoming Resistance, Lessons from Isaac Asimov, Writing Secrets After 8,500+ Daily Blog Posts, The Dangers of Authenticity, Practices for Consistency, and Much More

#728: Seth Godin — Coaching Tim on Overcoming Resistance, Lessons from Isaac Asimov, Writing Secrets After 8,500+ Daily Blog Posts, The Dangers of Authenticity, Practices for Consistency, and Much More

Released Tuesday, 19th March 2024
Good episode? Give it some love!
#728: Seth Godin — Coaching Tim on Overcoming Resistance, Lessons from Isaac Asimov, Writing Secrets After 8,500+ Daily Blog Posts, The Dangers of Authenticity, Practices for Consistency, and Much More

#728: Seth Godin — Coaching Tim on Overcoming Resistance, Lessons from Isaac Asimov, Writing Secrets After 8,500+ Daily Blog Posts, The Dangers of Authenticity, Practices for Consistency, and Much More

#728: Seth Godin — Coaching Tim on Overcoming Resistance, Lessons from Isaac Asimov, Writing Secrets After 8,500+ Daily Blog Posts, The Dangers of Authenticity, Practices for Consistency, and Much More

#728: Seth Godin — Coaching Tim on Overcoming Resistance, Lessons from Isaac Asimov, Writing Secrets After 8,500+ Daily Blog Posts, The Dangers of Authenticity, Practices for Consistency, and Much More

Tuesday, 19th March 2024
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ask you a question? No,

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I just need a question. I

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have a medical issue over a

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minute. Hello,

3:55

boys and girls. Ladies

4:00

and germs, This is Tim Ferris Welcome

4:02

to another episode of the Tim Ferris

4:05

Show and this is one of my

4:07

favorite types of episodes of course. Ah,

4:09

speaking of world class performers of all

4:12

different disciplines all the time, but one

4:14

of my favorite people to ask for

4:16

advice is Seth. Godin. And

4:19

this his a walk in

4:21

talks which means certain I

4:23

were walking and talking while

4:25

we recorded desk and I

4:28

had many burning questions I

4:30

wanted to ask. He did

4:32

not fail to deliver a

4:34

lot of sage advice, tactical

4:36

practical wisdom and. What? More

4:39

can I say. The guy's a gem.

4:41

He delivers every time. Who is Seth

4:43

Godin? You might ask. Seth Godin is

4:45

the author of twenty one international bestsellers

4:47

that have changed the way people think

4:49

about work. His books have been translated

4:51

into thirty eight languages and says books

4:53

include Tribes, Purple Cow, Linchpin, The Dip,

4:56

and This Is Marketing Satirize one of

4:58

the most popular marketing blogs in the

5:00

world. Eighty five hundred eight

5:02

thousand five hundred plus daily blog post

5:04

put that into perspective and to of

5:07

is Ted Talks are among the most

5:09

popular of all time. He is the

5:11

founder of the old Mbs, the social

5:14

media pioneer Square Do and Yoyo Dine

5:16

one of the first internet companies. His

5:18

latest book is the Song of Significance.

5:21

A new manifesto for teams you

5:23

can find him. At. Seth godin.com

5:25

and you can find subs blog at

5:28

Sets.log so you can get above those

5:30

for a lot of resources. And I'm

5:32

gonna just reiterate why we did this

5:35

format the way we did it because

5:37

there's too much sitting in the world.

5:39

it's not good for you. we weren't

5:42

evolve to do it's and I am

5:44

trying to counteract the. trend

5:46

the impulse all the incentives to do

5:48

podcast in a fixed location this isn't

5:50

good for my health and it's certainly

5:53

not good for your health to force

5:55

it can see what that way so

5:57

i release experimenting with being out in

5:59

the doing something that we are

6:01

designed to do and that is walk.

6:03

So without further ado please enjoy my

6:06

wider engine conversation where I ask for

6:08

a lot of help from Seth Godin.

6:14

All right here we are so thank you again

6:17

for taking the time and

6:19

the subject suppose relates to

6:21

time, attention, all these good things

6:23

which is how to make Tim

6:26

Ferriss's incredibly long-form

6:29

writing shorter

6:31

or how those two things fundamentally are

6:33

different in terms of long and short.

6:35

I texted you asking if

6:37

there's any secret sauce any

6:39

tips or tricks for writing short blog posts because

6:42

I consider you the undisputed

6:44

king of consistently good

6:47

short blog posts and that kind

6:49

of uncorked all of this. So here

6:51

we are and I suppose

6:54

where I might want to start is with

6:56

our initial text thread and

6:58

one of the points that at least as

7:00

I read it seemed to resonate was treating

7:02

blog posts more as a question

7:06

than an answer or a

7:08

provocation rather than a prescription. Could

7:11

you expand on that a little bit because I

7:13

think it relates also to the posts that you

7:16

so kindly proofread where I may

7:19

have misinterpreted how best to think about

7:21

that. I would be

7:23

delighted to dive in. There are so

7:25

many places to start. I'm going to start with this. You

7:28

are a gifted and generous writer

7:30

and you have been since I

7:32

began tracking what you do and

7:34

blogging is inherently a generous

7:38

act because it's hard in

7:40

2024 to justify it as

7:42

a financial endeavor. You're

7:44

doing it to eliminate and

7:48

what does it mean to write in

7:50

this form? A short

7:52

story attributed to Ernie Hemingway

7:55

probably not. For sale

7:58

baby shoes never worn.

8:01

Six words, it's perfect. In

8:03

six words, your heart breaks.

8:07

That's not scalable,

8:10

practical, repeatable. You

8:12

can't sign up to write

8:14

six-word short stories that break people's

8:16

hearts every day because

8:20

that level of condensing, that level of

8:22

being able to get at the heart,

8:24

none of the words had more than

8:26

seven letters, none of the words have

8:28

more than two syllables. That's

8:31

magic, right? We can't repeatedly

8:33

do that. So when

8:35

we look at the form of a blog,

8:37

we say, well, you know, Seth's blog posts

8:39

have 100,000 words in them. All I

8:41

have to do is take my idea and make it shorter.

8:44

And when we try to do that, resistance

8:47

kicks in, press fields resistance, and we

8:49

say, but I need to clarify this

8:51

sentence and add a parenthetical to that

8:53

sentence or else I will be misunderstood.

8:56

So this first sentence

8:58

in this paragraph, which is

9:00

rich and detailed and recursive

9:02

and layered goes like this.

9:05

Growth agents have a

9:07

place in medicine parentheses,

9:09

some types of hypopopulatarianism,

9:11

wasting syndrome, diseases, surgical

9:13

care, etc. And

9:15

some sports effectively require them at higher

9:18

levels. But there are always trade-offs when

9:20

you turn on the dials on complex

9:22

hormonal cascades and feedback loops. Everything

9:25

in that is true. And someone could

9:27

study that sentence in college for

9:30

a month because there's layers

9:32

below layers, below layers. And

9:36

unfortunately, the blog reader

9:38

in general is not ready to

9:40

consume that level of condensation.

9:43

And so we

9:46

shouldn't even try because

9:48

that's not what a blog is

9:50

good at. What a blog is

9:53

good at is what Scott

9:55

McLeod taught us about comics.

9:57

Scott McLeod's book about comics

10:00

Which is a must read. I have

10:02

read it or understanding colleges or that

10:04

I rather the understanding Alex Thank you

10:06

again. The key lesson

10:08

is this comics work

10:10

because something happens between

10:12

the panels, right? In.

10:14

Palo One Superman sees a problem and panels

10:16

to Superman is with the villain. We don't

10:19

see us who dragged out from panel one

10:21

panel to that happened in our brain. So.

10:24

The. Reason: Bad Comics and bad graphic

10:26

novels Or bad. Is. Because the

10:29

creator didn't understand that they didn't let our

10:31

brain to the leaping they just decided to

10:33

add a lot of pictures were story that

10:35

would be better in words. So

10:37

what a blog post does is it

10:39

says here's a sketch over here and

10:42

now I'm over there. You

10:44

figure out how I got from here to there

10:46

and by you figuring it out, the reader. You.

10:48

Will grow, You'll explore. You will be

10:50

a voice in this dialogue is is

10:53

not. Just me. Talking.

10:56

So. When. You ask me? To

10:59

review your writing. Some people are tempted.

11:02

To proofread And they don't really

11:04

mean proofreads The mean copy at

11:06

it. And com net is It means.

11:08

Six. The errors. And.

11:12

What? I'm trying to do when I'm editing

11:14

of friends work is say. Are they

11:16

even asking the right question? Cause thing is with

11:18

zone error sit on. My help to do that.

11:21

And so here. When I'm

11:24

trying to say is what is this

11:26

post for. And what it's

11:28

for, I think. Is the help?

11:30

Someone who's not paying attention to

11:32

realize that there are things they

11:35

might wanna think about? And

11:37

seven is a lot. So.

11:39

What I pitched back to his this is

11:41

actually seven blog posts in a series. And.

11:44

What? The first one says is you

11:46

know there's some things you're not thinking about the you might

11:48

wanna think about. Here's one of them. And.

11:52

The idea if I to say to

11:54

somebody. Biceps or temporary

11:56

baseball helmet sizes are forever.

11:59

Davis. Like that immediately and

12:01

then they're like. Moon.

12:03

Was and then they wanna think about

12:05

what you meant by that. It's a

12:08

haiku. It's a puzzle. It's a shadow.

12:10

Where's the light and what is being

12:12

reflected? So. Now you've gotten

12:14

permission to tell me. In. A

12:17

paragraph or two what you meant and then

12:19

I can. You get to see a downtown.

12:21

An honor and I say dancer. And.

12:24

That is the form. That is what. Blogs.

12:27

Are good at. But. And

12:29

I'm going and my rant now. Does. Sound

12:31

side. Is you will

12:33

be misunderstood. And that is why

12:35

there are no comments on my blog. Because.

12:38

People who misunderstood a post would then

12:40

respond by making me feel bad so

12:43

I would override and over right so

12:45

they wouldn't do that anymore. And.

12:47

Then there was in blog anymore. So how to stop? And.

12:50

Basically what I'm saying is if you don't get

12:52

it asked a friend. And if they

12:54

don't get it either, come back tomorrow. We can

12:56

just gus a new thing. And.

12:59

I think the king of this. Is.

13:01

Actually, the magic of Xkcd. Which.

13:04

Is a blog in graphic for. Yeah.

13:06

It's outstanding. I agree on that and

13:08

as you're talking to, things come to

13:11

mind for me and maybe as a

13:13

backdrop the. Impetus. For

13:15

a lot of this for me at

13:17

least is. Number. One to get

13:19

back into writing and to experiment with a

13:21

nice form, a new style, a new approach

13:24

to writing, And. Number.

13:27

Two to explore ideas To explore ideas

13:29

in various ways to clarify my own

13:31

thinking. Yup, which ends up happening in

13:33

this short. P C No biological free

13:36

lunch is that you Fred I suppose

13:38

My question Not copy editors which is

13:40

certainly. A. Very different thing in

13:43

this particular case if you are

13:45

writing this. Would you be inclined

13:47

to make it a series? Where would you. Make

13:50

each of these a stand alone. Peace.

13:54

In other words, of those seven bullets.

13:56

As you're thinking through not just the word

13:58

count I, this is. my mistake, where I basically

14:00

said, okay, instead of writing a 5,000 word blog post,

14:04

I'm going to make it less than 1,000, but I'm going to

14:06

try to still somehow get all

14:09

of the concepts into this shorter form. Seems

14:11

like there's a conceptual constraint

14:15

that makes things powerful, but would you take

14:17

those seven, make them into an interrelated series?

14:20

Would you make them all kind of independent

14:22

after you introduce them in this one piece?

14:25

How would you think about divvying

14:27

this up conceptually for yourself?

14:29

I should also just add one more thing, which is

14:32

fundamental to all of these observations and questions

14:35

and goals and dreams of mine is how

14:37

do I make this sustainable for me? Which

14:40

is part of the feedback you gave

14:43

in the comments on the draft of this

14:45

blog post was I'm paraphrasing, but if you

14:47

try to just make the 5,000 words thing,

14:49

1,000 words, it's going

14:51

to be exhausting for you and most

14:53

likely also exhausting for your research, which

14:55

I agree with. It

14:58

is about genre. My

15:00

blog is a long running series. It has

15:02

been a series of 8,500 daily posts. If

15:07

I was starting today, I have to figure

15:09

out what is the genre of my

15:11

work. If you think about David

15:13

Letterman's TV show, he

15:16

needed to have a series called

15:18

Stupid Pet Tricks because the show wasn't

15:20

Stupid Pet Tricks, but there was a

15:22

regular recurring Stupid Pet Trick. The

15:25

show was a series of

15:27

David Letterman shows. If

15:30

your genre as you reenter

15:32

blogging is there

15:35

is a post from Tim on a

15:37

regular basis and all of them are

15:40

about the things we put

15:42

into our body and performance, then you're

15:44

fine. If that's not the case,

15:47

then the question is when

15:49

the reader shows up, do you need to do

15:51

a lot of throat clearing to get them back

15:53

on track for what you are writing about today?

15:57

Since you're starting with largely a blank slate,

15:59

I said well, if the

16:01

first seven of these are in

16:03

this series, then

16:05

you only have to clear your throat once on

16:08

the eighth day and say, okay, now we're talking

16:10

about this and you could do one of

16:12

those or six of those or 12 of those. But

16:15

people do better if they

16:17

understand that they're going to see Dune

16:19

not read the power broker. Those are different genres

16:21

and you need to give them a hint as

16:23

to what they're going to get. I

16:25

like the idea of recognizing

16:28

that my tendency is to, how should

16:31

I be generous with myself, be

16:34

comprehensive, kind of say over

16:36

complicated, but let's be nice, try

16:38

to be comprehensive. I would rather,

16:41

as we talked about earlier, I'm walking by tennis courts

16:44

right now and I remember taking a tennis lesson. I

16:46

kept hitting the ball into the net and the coach

16:48

said to me, he's like, you can do anything. Now,

16:51

next step, you can hit the ball

16:53

straight up in the air, you can hit a home

16:55

run, the one thing you cannot do is hit it

16:57

into the net. I was like, okay, I got it.

17:00

I kind of feel like I need to give myself

17:02

some marching orders like that for writing to counterbalance

17:05

some of my tendencies. I

17:08

like the idea of writing self-sustaining,

17:13

independent pieces to restrict myself from the

17:15

desire to say, you know what, I'm

17:17

not going to overwrite this, but it's

17:19

going to be part one in a

17:21

12-part series, which is maybe a workaround

17:24

for tricking myself. I'm going to interrupt

17:26

you for a little bit. Please do.

17:29

You are extraordinarily skilled

17:31

at not over-complicating

17:33

your writing or your

17:35

narratives. That's how you got

17:38

this far, that there's very

17:41

little that you have published where you

17:43

were the primary researcher and the breakthrough

17:45

creator of the original science. What you've

17:47

done is helped people simplify,

17:51

understand. What's

17:53

happening here is resistance. You

17:56

are adding parenthetical to

17:58

protect yourself. So,

18:01

what I'm pushing you to do is

18:04

to come up with boundaries so

18:06

that you can say, I did a

18:08

good job and ship

18:11

the work. Now that could involve

18:13

having very, like

18:16

the rules of haiku, very

18:18

significant rules where you

18:20

must have a tagline, a come

18:22

online that's less than 18 words and

18:25

you're allowed to have two footnote links but the

18:27

rest of it has to be a narrative that

18:29

you would say to somebody on the telephone. And

18:33

instead of typing them, you are just recording each

18:35

one and letting someone on your team

18:37

text them. If that would be

18:39

the model, you would have to let

18:41

go of it because you only have a five minute

18:43

phone call, you're going to say it as clearly as

18:45

you can, you can add two links when you're done

18:48

and it's done, you got to ship it, right?

18:52

But that's not letting the reader down because

18:54

you've announced to them that that's what this

18:56

is, the genre matters.

18:58

I asked you one question related

19:01

to how you know when

19:03

you're done and I'd

19:06

love for you to answer that again

19:08

because I suspect I'll have some follow up questions

19:11

and either before or after

19:13

that, I would love to know for yourself

19:15

what type of rules

19:18

you have imposed or constraints

19:20

or boundaries when

19:22

you have had your better

19:25

streaks of writing, let's just say. All

19:27

right, I'll do the first part first because it's easier. You

19:29

asked, how do you decide or know

19:32

when a post is done? And I

19:34

texted back, I don't. That's

19:38

the point. And then I wrote, imagine

19:41

how hard it would be to have

19:43

a conversation or even a text thread

19:45

if we had to think through whether

19:47

our turn to talk was over before

19:50

we stopped talking, right?

19:54

So, my model, my ritual is I

19:56

write blog posts in advance and then the night

19:58

before I review the I rewrite them,

20:01

I delete them, so if I

20:03

get the stomach flu, there's still gonna be a

20:05

blog post tomorrow. And when

20:08

I rewrite a blog post, the

20:10

rule is you get

20:12

points if you make it shorter, you don't get points

20:14

if you make it longer. And

20:17

if I can't boil it down

20:20

more than it already is, and it's not

20:23

deliberately deceptive, it's

20:25

done because the purpose is tell

20:28

people something they already sort of know in

20:31

a way that they would be grateful for

20:33

the chance to forward to other people. Do

20:36

you say that one more time, Seth? That seems

20:38

important. If I can show up with

20:40

something in your bones, you know

20:42

to be true

20:44

or interesting or worth thinking about,

20:47

but I can say it in a way that

20:49

would benefit you if you could share it

20:51

with your friends and colleagues, that's

20:54

a great blog post. Benefit

20:56

you in what possible senses? I

20:58

will give you a trivial one

21:00

first, which is more

21:02

than once I have blogged about how stupid it

21:05

is that there's a pull down menu when you're

21:07

checking out of a shop and

21:09

there's all 50 states listed. That

21:11

isn't helping anybody. We have AI that

21:14

can speak English. It knows how to

21:16

turn NY into New York. We

21:19

do this because 40

21:23

years ago or whenever the web was young, 25 years ago,

21:25

it was a hack

21:28

that made life slightly easier for certain

21:30

programmers and it's just been sticking around

21:32

ever since. There are people

21:35

like me, it really vexes. If

21:37

I say this and you are one of those vexing

21:40

people, now you can forward it to your webmaster and

21:42

say, see, I said we shouldn't do this and so

21:44

I just gave you a useful

21:46

thing to share. It's

21:48

trivial but that's sort of the

21:50

idea. If

21:53

you have a brother or son

21:55

or a colleague or daughter or

21:57

sister who would benefit from

22:00

insight that you think I'm on to, you're going

22:02

to forward it to them and you're going to

22:04

have a connection with them because I opened the

22:06

door and made it possible for you to do

22:08

it. Every once in a while, I do

22:10

post something about Claude AI that you didn't

22:13

know about. And you go, oh great, I

22:15

use Claude. Thank you very much. But

22:17

that's not really the service my blog offers.

22:20

The service my blog offers is not I'm

22:22

breaking news, it's I am

22:24

trying to illuminate things that already

22:26

resonate with people. Not

22:29

to add too many parenthetical to this conversation,

22:31

but what is Claude AI? Claude.ai, I can't

22:33

believe I know something you don't

22:35

know. Claude.ai

22:40

is significantly

22:42

better than chat GPT

22:44

at certain functions. And

22:47

I think part of it is because it

22:49

doesn't read the web or it says it doesn't read the

22:51

web. So it's not easily distracted. But

22:53

I'm launching a software project in

22:55

six weeks and the business plan

22:58

took more than a year and a whole bunch

23:00

of contributors, it's 40 pages long. And

23:03

I uploaded the business plan

23:05

to Claude. And I said,

23:07

please review this highlight contradictions,

23:09

paradoxes and obvious errors. And

23:12

in less than 10 seconds, it wrote me

23:14

a page and a half MBA quality memo

23:17

that nailed it. It just nailed it, nailed it, and

23:20

I was like, okay, you

23:22

got me. That's great. That's great. So I use

23:24

Claude.ai every day to read

23:28

other people's writing, my writing, critique it, give

23:30

me insight, you could send your post to

23:32

Claude and it might not have the insight

23:34

I had, but it would definitely have something

23:36

to say. Incredible.

23:38

All right. And

23:40

parentheses, what are some other elements

23:43

or practices or

23:45

constraints or fill in

23:47

the blank that have helped you

23:49

with consistency in terms of blog

23:54

writing? Because I have attempted

23:56

and failed a number of...

24:00

times to build up momentum

24:02

writing shorter posts. And

24:04

I think a lot of what we've already discussed will help. Is

24:06

there anything else that you would add to the,

24:09

it helps my consistency streak

24:11

category? Well, I would

24:13

say two things. First, I think you're talking about

24:15

consistency in terms of showing up

24:17

at the ballpark every day. Cadence,

24:20

yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I'll do that

24:22

one second. The first one, I have never met

24:24

Larry David, but I'm guessing that

24:26

there are some days that Larry David

24:28

is actually a nice, thoughtful person. And

24:32

there is a character named Larry

24:35

David as well. So

24:37

the person who writes my blog is a

24:39

character named Seth Godin. And

24:42

I am the only person who has ever written my blog.

24:44

I'm the only person who ever will write my

24:46

blog. But when I am doing it, I am

24:49

playing the character named Seth Godin. So

24:51

if it doesn't sound like me, if

24:54

it's just me authentically being tired

24:56

or annoyed, I don't

24:59

publish those. Because

25:02

that's not what my character would

25:04

do. This is not me exposing

25:06

some mystical, mythical

25:08

Seth Godin to the world. It's me

25:10

portraying the character Seth Godin because it's

25:13

a service. And then the second thing

25:15

is streaks are usually used against

25:17

us by software. And

25:19

if they make you feel bad, it's not a helpful

25:21

thing. But I write blog

25:24

posts every single day whether I use them or

25:26

not. And I learned that from

25:28

Isaac Asimov when I worked with him all those years ago.

25:31

If you know that tomorrow morning

25:34

you have to start typing

25:36

tonight when you go to sleep or

25:38

today when you're walking around, you will

25:40

be noticing things so that

25:43

you have something to type. And

25:46

I have enough in reserve that I don't

25:48

have to do it every day. But I

25:50

do it every day because I eat lunch

25:52

every day and because I take a shower

25:54

every day. A few follow-ups.

25:56

So the first is related to the playing the character

25:59

of Seth Godin. Sounds like.

26:01

If. I heard you crackly you're

26:03

saying. You're. Writing should

26:05

reflect is. How

26:07

you feel in the world at the

26:09

time that you're writing. My hearing that

26:11

correctly. Know. It's the

26:14

opposite of that see opposite there's no should

26:16

hear. First of all, If someone

26:18

wants to write a blog that's just

26:20

the unvarnished version of them in the

26:22

moment, go for it out. Camera Log

26:25

Police. What I'm saying is I

26:27

can read a blog post I wrote fourteen years

26:29

ago. And. I.

26:32

Might not right the same one today, but it

26:34

rhymes with the one I would write today. Because.

26:38

There's. A voice. That.

26:40

This. Character has that I am very

26:42

comfortable with. I did the first thing that

26:44

all writers do. When. I got such a

26:47

pity which is I s it right like me. And

26:49

I was pleased to discover it.

26:52

Was. A parody of me. And.

26:55

Being. Able to be parodied is

26:57

a really good sign. Move

26:59

And that's what. It

27:02

is to have this voice is to say.

27:04

I could exaggerated and six different directions

27:06

and people could tell I would be

27:08

partying ants. By. Blight.

27:11

You. Know the Peanuts comic strip? Charles

27:14

Cel studies every single day and

27:16

it's very hard to tell which

27:18

decade. A. Peanut strip is from.

27:21

Totally. And that's that's what I'm after.

27:23

Said. This to unpack them will do

27:25

more. I know we've talked before or

27:28

I should say I bass and listen

27:30

to you discuss how the authenticity strategizing

27:32

single months is also not always but

27:35

often very misplaced and just kind of

27:37

over values this over sharing. what are

27:39

the things that make it. Sets.

27:42

The character set the character. It. Is

27:45

it eighty percent? Voice that

27:47

you dogs. Such. To. Jazz

27:50

you Be Deacon Everyday and parody you

27:52

would have the other ingredients that making

27:54

South The character who writes on South

27:57

Swag. You. Know I've not. Ever.

28:00

Push myself to name them because

28:02

seeing as forgetting the name of

28:04

what one sees. By. Her

28:06

the Us. I guess I'd

28:08

highlight a couple things. The first one

28:10

is. I try to begin from

28:13

a place of the benefit of the

28:15

out of there probably aren't bad people

28:17

there says situation said cause people to

28:19

do things that. Are troubling. And.

28:22

A level of optimism to go with it.

28:24

I tried to. Reduce

28:27

ideas. To. Their

28:30

essence with becoming hyperbolic.

28:33

Because. The Voices of

28:35

Social Media. Amped

28:37

up the hyperbolic part. That's

28:40

not a simplification, that's an

28:42

exaggeration. Rights I tried to.

28:45

Eliminate. Parent.

28:47

That a cause unless I really have no

28:49

choice, So. I.

28:51

Will. Avoid saying something

28:54

like. All. Tall people

28:56

are very brave. Because.

28:58

That's ridiculous. But. I will

29:00

not. Right Tall people are brave Parentheses

29:02

except for this person. This person. This

29:05

person in this person Because now it's

29:07

not worth reading. Crisis.

29:09

Surface a diversion assertion at

29:11

the beginning that creates tension.

29:14

And then a release. Of

29:16

that tension that lands and

29:18

idea so. The shortest blog

29:20

posts ever wrote which I'm really proud

29:23

of. His. First. Line is.

29:25

You. Don't need more time. So.

29:28

That's an assertion. It's controversial,

29:31

people who feel overwhelmed. Want.

29:34

To challenge it. And. Then for

29:36

delivery is. You. Just need

29:38

to decide. So. That flipped

29:40

upside down. Takes the blame

29:42

off the system in the people who

29:44

are. Make you busy and put it

29:47

right back. I knew. Giving. You

29:49

agency. And authority

29:51

and responsibility. To simply.

29:53

Decide. And then get back

29:55

to what needs to get done. And so

29:58

I'm just a few words. That's

30:00

an example of. A short Seth

30:02

Godin blog posts. And. A

30:04

longer one. Is. One where

30:07

I will try to teach somebody

30:09

details about something they didn't know.

30:12

But frame. It. In.

30:14

A way that they're comfortable with because that's how

30:16

they might have framed it as well. Let

30:19

me ask a. Quick. Question. Or maybe

30:21

that I've. Cut. Back on

30:23

my caffeine to significantly but. You

30:26

don't need more time, you just need to decide

30:28

what are people decided? Fuck.

30:31

folks. Who say. I'm.

30:33

Going to figure out which cause I want

30:35

to apply to soon. I diseases do more

30:37

research. I just needed a minimum. I got

30:40

his rights, close the open lives, get it

30:42

done, Make it's yeah exactly. Where.

30:44

Whom I make one sense. Just.

30:49

A quick thanks to one of our sponsors and will be right

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up I. The hit. I'm sure I've as

32:01

soon as I apologize, but I can't. Remember.

32:04

The answers we have discussed it. What are

32:06

some other things you picked up from Isaac

32:08

Asimov? me discuss demigod. Insisted a

32:10

lot of be boy considering what. What?

32:13

Are other things he absorbed are observed. With.

32:15

Isaac. Isaac was in his

32:17

seventies. I was twenty four and a

32:19

half. Maybe twenty five. He was one

32:21

of my first part x it was one of his last

32:24

ones. And we would hang out.

32:26

His apartment near Lincoln Center and I

32:28

got to spend time with. This was.

32:31

The. Thing about Isaac Asimov is

32:33

the character of Isaac Asimov

32:35

was in Know It All.

32:37

Egomaniac for the time Today he

32:40

would be seen as humble. But.

32:42

He. Published. Four

32:44

hundred bucks. He invented the modern

32:47

conception of a robot. He wrote.

32:49

Seminal. Work. On

32:51

an enormous number topics. A definitive book about

32:53

the bible. I mean all over the place.

32:57

But. In person. He.

33:00

Was. Humble. And.

33:02

Funny. And. As a

33:04

project partner. He. Was company

33:06

lately? Hands off He spent.

33:09

Time. With me to make

33:11

sure I understood the boundaries

33:13

of what. And. Isaac Asimov

33:15

project was. And then

33:18

he said. Go. For. It. And

33:20

he didn't micromanage us thing cause

33:23

he trusted me. And my.

33:25

Understanding of where. The.

33:27

Robots Universe could go. And.

33:31

It spoiled me because I thought that

33:33

was gonna happen again and again and

33:35

again. That ended up. I got Stanley

33:37

Caplan into the test prep book business

33:39

and it took seven years. And.

33:41

By the time we publish the book Stanley was

33:44

long gone from the project is he had sold

33:46

the company. But. talk about micromanaging

33:48

with a well no name so i'm one

33:50

ended a selection was isaac asimov as the

33:53

other i was sally kaplan go figure that

33:55

you stir event as moths makes you think

33:57

a little bit of rick rubin where's right

34:00

out of the gate, LL Cool J, BC

34:02

boys. He's like, oh, this is easy. This

34:04

is how it works. Fantastic. What was the

34:06

project that you were working with, Isaac

34:08

on? Okay, so before DVDs,

34:11

lots of people had VCRs. And-

34:13

Yes, I remember. A company called

34:15

Parker Brothers took their board game Clue and

34:17

they made it into a VCR game. And

34:20

it was dumb. And it sold more than a

34:22

million copies at $40. Wow,

34:24

good for them. And

34:27

so Peter Alaka, the greatest game

34:29

designer of his generation and I,

34:32

invented a murder mystery game you could play

34:34

on your VCR. So there

34:36

was a movie shot with real union actors

34:39

in a set in New York City. It

34:41

lasted 38 minutes and took

34:43

place on another planet about robots and

34:45

murder and detectives. And six

34:48

times during the short film,

34:51

a screen came up and said, hit the pause button

34:54

and play a card. So you would hit pause and

34:56

you had a stack of six cards and

34:59

each card had two sides and you

35:01

would throw a card down and it

35:03

would be a clue. Like there

35:05

are no fingerprints on the gun, which might

35:08

mean it was a robot because robots don't

35:10

have fingerprints, right? And on the other

35:12

side of the card, it said there were fingerprints on the

35:14

gun. So now you know it's not a robot. So it

35:16

turned out that two to the power of six

35:19

is 156 or whatever. And

35:22

if you added up the code numbers on

35:24

the top of each card you played, it

35:26

told you which page in the answer booklet

35:28

had the answer to that thread through the

35:30

game. So you could

35:32

play the game hundreds of times and it would be

35:35

a different outcome each time. And

35:37

we sold the lights to Kodak and

35:39

Cisco and Ebert gave it two thumbs up and

35:42

advertised it on the Olympics like the whole thing.

35:45

It was fascinating. Wow. Where

35:48

were you in your career that

35:50

that opportunity presented itself where you found that

35:53

opportunity? What had led up to that? Outside

35:56

of what you just described. So before I did

35:58

that, I had only one real job. and

36:00

my job was at Spinnaker Software. We

36:02

invented educational computer games and I built

36:04

the first brand of illustrated

36:07

computer adventure games. I worked with Arthur

36:09

C. Clarke and Ray Bradbury and Michael

36:11

Crichton. I got rights to games. I

36:13

worked with Byron Price. He had a

36:15

team of programmers and I had a

36:17

team of programmers. We did The Wizard

36:19

of Oz and I loved

36:21

it. I could still be doing it to this day

36:24

but the world changed and I was out on my

36:26

own after a couple years as

36:28

a book packager. Peter

36:30

and I knew each other and

36:33

the momentum from the interactive game

36:35

thing led me to

36:37

Isaac's editor and no

36:40

one had ever asked for the rights. The rights

36:42

weren't expensive and then once I had the rights,

36:44

I found Kodak and Kodak

36:47

was able to put up the money so

36:49

we could build this thing and

36:51

own part of the back end. If

36:54

I zoom out, I have a macro level question

36:56

for you which has been on my mind a lot, if

36:58

you don't mind, which is a question

37:01

of how you choose next chapters

37:04

or projects because I'm coming up on the

37:06

10th anniversary of the podcast next April, so

37:08

in a few months and I

37:11

figured that would be a good

37:13

time as any to pause and reflect on things and

37:15

think about where I want to go. I love

37:18

doing the podcast. I don't plan on stopping it but there

37:20

are a lot of trends driving

37:22

it towards effectively turning

37:25

podcasts into six location television shows

37:27

and I don't have much desire to do that.

37:29

I don't want to be contrarian just for the

37:31

sake of being contrarian, that's a stone trap or

37:34

set of traps but

37:36

I know you've been very deliberate for

37:38

instance in choosing not to start a

37:41

dozen startups and in

37:43

favor of choosing to spend your

37:45

time on other things. How do you choose

37:48

or think about next chapters or

37:50

what advice might you give

37:52

me as I contemplate the what's

37:54

next type of question?

37:57

I think it's very kind of you

37:59

to say I'm good at it. I don't

38:01

think I'm good at it but because I'm sort

38:03

of in public and I do it in a

38:05

certain way, it's noted. I did

38:07

five years of akimbo. It was in the

38:09

top 1% of all podcasts and then I

38:11

just stopped and I stopped

38:14

not because I didn't love it. I did

38:16

love it. I stopped because if I kept

38:18

doing it, there's something else I wouldn't do

38:20

instead and creating

38:23

a vacuum is

38:25

required so that I

38:28

will do the hard work of filling the

38:30

vacuum. But if I just keep

38:32

doing the thing, then

38:34

there is no vacuum. Sometimes

38:37

the technology changes. That's why Spinnaker

38:39

went away. That's why you couldn't

38:42

keep making VCR games. It's

38:44

why my head start in the CD-ROM

38:46

business was worthless because CD-ROMs went away.

38:48

I'd liked in every

38:51

time I did this being a pioneer in

38:53

a new media space because that's for me

38:55

the funnest spot and then when

38:57

the technology changes, I got to move on. But podcast

39:00

technology is never going to change. I mean,

39:02

you're noting there's a change in the

39:05

production format and that is a change. So

39:07

in my case, what I'm trying to do

39:10

is not maximize my

39:13

income per hour spent nor

39:15

am I trying to maximize the size of my

39:18

audience. What I'm trying to maximize

39:20

is are the people I'm

39:22

serving glad

39:24

that I did, that I showed up to

39:26

solve an interesting problem? And two,

39:29

as I build the stack of things on the bookshelf

39:31

behind me, can I point to them

39:33

and say that was interesting and generous and I'm glad

39:35

I did it. And

39:38

that's part of a limited attention span theater.

39:40

So it's not for everybody. But

39:43

my whole point of view is that life is projects.

39:45

It is not a job. And

39:47

when you stop the podcast

39:49

and created that vacuum, did you

39:51

already have something warming

39:54

up in the batting cage that was

39:56

pending that you need to create that vacuum for? Or

39:58

did you create the vacuum? and then wait

40:00

for something to get pulled. Not to

40:03

strain the metaphor, but she could see the idea.

40:05

No, you're not straining it. If there is something

40:07

pending, it's not a vacuum. There have been times

40:09

when something so good came along, I

40:12

did it and then had to remove things so I could

40:14

do it. When a few of

40:16

us started Squidoo, which was one of the

40:18

first social networks, I had to completely reorganize

40:20

my life because we built the 40th biggest

40:22

website in the US with only eight employees.

40:25

So we were busy. This is

40:27

not what I'm talking about. I am

40:29

talking about an actual uncomfortable vacuum

40:32

where you feel like you're never gonna work again, where

40:35

nothing can possibly be worth what

40:37

you gave up. And

40:39

that's hard to do. Yeah,

40:42

it is hard to do. Just

40:44

to put a microscope on that,

40:47

I have as means as backstory,

40:51

done this for periods of time and

40:53

have found it deeply, deeply uncomfortable, sometimes

40:56

fruitful, oftentimes not terribly fruitful, in

40:58

part, I think, because when I

41:00

create that vacuum, I don't know

41:02

if the best way to embrace

41:05

the vacuum is to basically just stare at the wall and

41:07

watch a paint dryer or to do something else and my

41:09

mind just kind of folds in on itself. You

41:12

create the vacuum and then what do the

41:14

next few weeks look like in terms of

41:16

how you spend your time day to day

41:18

or week to week? I think a fundamental

41:20

difference between you and me, there are so

41:22

many of them, but one of them as

41:24

I am here talking to what, the world

41:26

tango champion. Former world record holder, long time

41:28

ago, yes. Is the

41:31

only thing I have a

41:33

world record in is being

41:36

part of the largest co-author book signing

41:38

in history in which me and 400

41:40

other people all signed our book at

41:43

the same time. Because I

41:45

am not a high performer, I

41:47

am interesting. And being interesting

41:50

is really important to me, but

41:52

I am not holding myself to

41:54

the standard you hold yourself in so

41:56

many ways. And so I

41:58

could imagine. That. The

42:01

thing that gives me comfort. Might.

42:03

Not make you happy. right? For.

42:05

Sure, I. Agree with all of

42:07

that and had is that difference? Translate

42:10

what you'd do in the weeks following

42:12

creating. The. Vacuum after say

42:14

stop and podcast. So I guess you

42:16

have activities that you're still carrying sword

42:18

Not like you're completely idol you're writing.

42:20

so yeah, presumably. If someone

42:22

looked at me, Funny.

42:24

Outside I think that they

42:27

would see that my days

42:29

aren't. That. Different. I'm

42:31

not sipping public. Work.

42:34

Because. I don't ship junk. But.

42:36

I am. Internally. Creating

42:39

lots of mediocre work, And.

42:42

Basically creating stroppy both and say what would

42:44

this be like and then what would that

42:46

be like in here's this thing and I've

42:48

sat with by sixty or eighty white laser

42:50

cutter and I cut this thing our way.

42:52

think a that. And. That.

42:57

Invention. Cycle. Is.

43:00

Joyful! Better. To

43:02

have rather because. I. Also

43:04

need the satisfaction sipping the work

43:06

and not giving into resistance. So

43:08

what I'm doing? When I was

43:11

a book packager. We sold. Hundred

43:13

and twenty bucks in ten years, a book a

43:16

month. But I had more than eight hundred bucks

43:18

on my hard drive. Ready to go, not finished,

43:20

but to pay five. Pace proposals. Because.

43:23

The only way to have a was finished proposal

43:25

for me is have an unfinished one the you

43:27

didn't ship. What is it on?

43:29

This is probably fundamental question I should have

43:31

asked earlier, but. What

43:33

you get from writing. And

43:36

having written as consistently as you have

43:38

been, do what is the pay off

43:40

Like, Why do that? Oh, he's a

43:42

big. Payoff is simple. Not in

43:45

terms of equities stock value, but in

43:47

terms of. The. Noise in my head. The

43:49

biggest benefit is. I. Will be

43:52

writing tomorrow because it's Friday, not because

43:54

I've written the perfect blog post. That.

43:57

every single day something good published

43:59

by me because I decided that

44:01

24 years ago, not

44:04

because I have reconsidered each

44:06

day whether this one is good enough.

44:10

And even if no one read my

44:12

blog, I would still do it. And

44:14

I'm very fortunate that people give me the benefit

44:16

of the doubt knowing that

44:19

I am not guaranteeing this is the best thing I ever wrote

44:21

and they're still willing to look at it. So

44:23

that's lovely. In terms of

44:26

my professional practice, again,

44:30

back to genre, having a

44:33

cinecure, a platform where

44:36

for a long time if you type blog into Google,

44:38

I was the first match because

44:40

I just showed up more than

44:42

just about anybody. There's a lot

44:44

of value to saying, this is my lane and

44:46

you can count on me in this lane. And

44:50

for someone who is as peripatetic

44:52

as I in their creative

44:54

pursuits, having one of those

44:57

turned out to be a really useful thing. You

45:00

mentioned a word that I don't recognize but

45:02

I love the sound of, cinecure. What is

45:04

that? Yes. It's a safe

45:06

haven, a niche, a place to hide, a

45:08

fortress. What a great word. Yeah.

45:12

All right. Mental note to use cinecure.

45:14

Well, I don't want to

45:16

take up a ton of

45:18

time here, Seth. This is all incredibly, incredibly helpful. This

45:20

is the best part of my day. And I know

45:22

that you're not publishing this as written,

45:24

but I just want to say, for the people

45:27

who were wondering what's in

45:29

this magical thing you wrote,

45:31

it includes the line, like

45:33

Patagonian toothfish has become Chilean

45:35

sea bass on fashionable menus

45:37

worldwide. Right there.

45:40

That's gold, Jerry. That's his gold.

45:43

And so you need to

45:45

liberate these things and explain to

45:47

people what the ... I know

45:50

what you're talking about, but the

45:52

fact is that entire species are

45:55

becoming extinct because somebody figured out

45:57

a clever way to market an

45:59

animal. animal that we eat, there's a lot to

46:01

be said about that one little riff and you have

46:03

40 of them in

46:05

one post. Thanks, man. Yeah, the no

46:08

biological free lunch. It's one of those

46:10

things that I've said so many times

46:12

to friends in conversation and I was

46:14

following like, you know what, if

46:17

not for any other reason than I am tired

46:19

of repeating this Gettysburg address

46:21

speech to every wayward friend who calls

46:23

me up about to consume really potent

46:26

drugs. I have some of those. If

46:28

you go to Seth's stop blog and

46:30

type advice for authors, there

46:35

are two posts with the same title because

46:37

that's the I wasn't being clear

46:39

that I wrote a year and a half apart

46:41

and they have each like a dozen

46:43

or 15 bullet points and now I

46:45

have a fig and superhuman that

46:47

I can call up if when someone

46:49

sends me a note a friend or whatever I can

46:51

say, oh, I've already thought about this question. Here you

46:54

go. I love it. Hey

46:59

guys, this is Tim again. Just one more

47:01

thing before you take off and that is

47:04

five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a

47:06

short email from me every Friday that provides

47:08

a little fun before the weekend between

47:11

one and a half and two million people

47:13

subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short

47:15

newsletter called five bullet Friday. Easy to sign

47:17

up, easy to cancel. It

47:19

is basically a half page that I send

47:22

out every Friday to share the coolest

47:24

things I've found or discovered or have started

47:26

exploring over that week. It's kind of

47:28

like my diary of cool things. It

47:30

often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading,

47:33

albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of

47:35

tech tricks and so on that get

47:38

sent to me by my friends, including

47:40

a lot of podcasts, guests and these

47:42

strange esoteric things end up in my

47:44

field and then I test them and

47:47

then I share them with you. So

47:49

if that sounds fun, again, it's very short,

47:52

a little tiny bite of goodness before you

47:54

head off for the weekend, something to think

47:56

about. If you'd like to try it

47:58

out, just go to www.hind.blog slash www.hind.blog. Friday. Type

48:00

that into your browser, tim.blog

48:02

slash Friday. Drop in your email

48:04

and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for

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