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Lubars Girls, Ladies and germs. This is

4:47

Tim Ferris Welcome to another absurd of

4:49

the Timber Show where it is my

4:51

job to sit down with world class

4:53

performers from every field imaginable to tease

4:55

out the habits, routines, favorite books and

4:57

so on that you can apply and

4:59

test in your own lives. This.

5:01

Episode is a two for one and

5:03

that's because the podcast recently hit it's

5:06

tenth year anniversary which is insane to

5:08

think about and past one billion downloads.

5:10

To celebrate, I've curated some of the

5:12

best of the best, some of my

5:14

favorites from more than seven hundred episodes

5:17

over the last decade. I could not

5:19

be more excited to give you these

5:21

super a combo episodes and internally we've

5:23

been calling these the super com upset

5:26

because my goal is to encourage you

5:28

to yes, enjoy the household names, the

5:30

super famous folks. But to

5:32

also introduce you to lesser known

5:34

people I consider stars. These.

5:37

Are people who have transfer my life and

5:39

I feel like they can do the same

5:41

for many of you. Perhaps they got lost

5:43

in a busy new cycle? Perhaps you missed

5:45

an episode? Just. Trust me on

5:47

this one. We went to great pains

5:49

to put these pairings together. And.

5:51

For the bios of all, guess. You.

5:54

Can find that and more

5:56

at teamed up Blog/combo. And.

5:58

now without further ado Please enjoy

6:01

and thank you for listening. First

6:04

up, Tony Robbins, entrepreneur,

6:06

philanthropist, and the

6:08

nation's number one life and business

6:11

strategist and the number one

6:13

New York Times bestselling author of

6:15

Money, Master the Game, Life

6:18

Force, and Awaken the

6:20

Giant Within. You can

6:22

find Tony on Twitter and Instagram at

6:25

Tony Robbins. Looking

6:27

at the longevity of your career, the

6:29

scope and scale of the

6:31

Tony Robbins empire, so to speak, your

6:34

endurance has really impressed me. And

6:36

so I'm wondering after these

6:39

decades, what are some of your

6:41

daily routines? My regimen is I

6:43

start with something to strengthen

6:46

and jolt my nervous system every second day.

6:48

Well, sometimes he's into it, I'll go in the hot pools. I'm

6:50

fortunate enough to have multiple homes. My home in Sun Valley, I

6:52

have natural hot pools that come out of the ground just to

6:55

see me hot. I go in the hot

6:57

pools and then I go there in the river. Here I go on

6:59

a 57 degree plunge pool that I have. And I have on every

7:01

home I have, every one of these. Immediately upon

7:03

waking up. It's just like boom,

7:05

every cell in the body wakes up.

7:07

And it's also just like training my nervous

7:09

system to rock that there is no, I don't

7:11

even show how you feel. This is how you

7:14

perform. This is what you do. Even when I'm

7:16

taking vacation, I do it. It's just, I don't

7:18

know. Now I like it. I like that simple

7:20

discipline that reminds me the level

7:22

of strength and intensity that's available at any moment,

7:24

even if I'm relaxing, I can bring that up

7:26

at will. This is my one. I

7:28

also have a cryotherapy unit. Home, sorry, do you

7:31

use tri-cryotherapy? I haven't. You know what it is?

7:33

Maybe you can. I

7:35

can put the two words together and probably get

7:37

it. Oh

7:40

my God. But all that you do, you're going to

7:42

love this. I'm surprised. I'm glad I'm teaching Tim Ferriss

7:44

up the pressure. I've done ice bath. Oh, not the

7:46

first time. I can have a sock, trust me. I'm

7:49

on stage in a weekend. I do my at least

7:51

powered in program three days, 50 hours. You've

7:54

got to come with my guest on events. I would love

7:56

to. But I'm going to give you an idea. People Won't

7:58

sit for a three hour movie. The com is

8:00

a threat or billion dollars on and I

8:02

got like as your Oprah going on you

8:05

to i love you but two hours mostly

8:07

get him and twelve hours later over standing

8:09

on a check on the most incredibly smooth

8:11

my wife on camera or like do I

8:13

mean for all three days but for me

8:15

one of those days alone am I the

8:17

I were odometer and I'm a bit as

8:19

twenty six miles on average while we started

8:21

eight thirty in the morning as innocent wonder

8:23

if to there's one one hour break people

8:25

can vote with your feet No one leaves

8:27

it out there. On average twenty

8:29

minutes of just crazy ass standing ovations,

8:31

Music stuff that happens. The and people

8:33

are just as like a rock concert.

8:35

Have some fun but. The wear

8:37

and tear up doing know basically marathon

8:39

aftermath of the marathon the weekend back

8:41

to backs pretty intense and so over

8:43

the years like the inflammation my body

8:45

to demands I've had to have no

8:47

can reduce it's nothing is composed. Go

8:49

out there because there is developed in

8:51

Poland and Eastern Germany and the Eastern

8:54

Bloc countries. thought it does is it

8:56

uses nitrogen so there's no water and

8:58

unlike a nice opportunity get spasms and

9:00

him how to do so. Riser boxer

9:02

your runner. You're an athlete which is

9:04

why would you before he them. None.

9:06

Of that process, but his reduces your

9:08

body temperature to minus twenty Fahrenheit and

9:11

you have three minutes. And

9:13

it's mind boggling. And sat. On.

9:15

Your nostrils when it and if you like

9:17

that I would love to know them either

9:19

side you to hear other flights. but what

9:21

it does is and I do about three

9:24

times a week. Usually when I come back

9:26

for that I do it in a couple

9:28

days around. The what it does is it

9:30

takes all the information. Everybody you know what

9:32

information does every aspect about invite them but

9:34

it also sends an emergency. Mr. Branson resetting

9:36

your neurological system. Is your brain going? You're

9:38

gonna freeze to death. Sounds rather get really

9:40

isn't you find us? Not a painful going

9:42

of my coupons and fifty Five Degrees kills

9:44

more insulting the just. as even colder cause

9:46

you know the fluid of water versus the

9:48

night live in different predicated on many sides

9:51

of the exact right but what happens is

9:53

your nervousness get the signals of like everything

9:55

your body connect because it's like emergency i

9:57

report is a reserve you nervous system explosion

10:00

of endorphins in your body, which is really

10:02

cool. So you get this natural high, you

10:05

feel this physiological transformation, and you get the

10:07

reduction of inflammation. What it was used for

10:09

originally is for people with arthritis. And I

10:11

found my first one, because my mother-in-law would

10:13

be calling up and she was just crying

10:15

and pain and no medication was enough for

10:17

her. And I hate something medicated anyhow. And

10:20

so I started doing this research and it just

10:22

started to come to the US and now the

10:24

LA Lakers, most football teams, it's spreading like wildfire

10:26

on most sports teams. And so that's where it

10:28

took off. So I went and got her one

10:31

and I mean, it took her, I think three

10:33

sessions and she's out of pain. And now there's

10:35

another day she's in pain. So now most

10:37

people can't afford to go buy a unit, but there

10:39

are local places now that are popping up all over

10:41

the United States where athletes go, where people go, where

10:44

people go for rejuvenation. It's amazing to the skin, but

10:46

it's one of the great things. I got it first,

10:48

I got it for me. And then now I'm addicted.

10:50

But other than that, I'm too much unique or different

10:52

with my life. I don't believe that entirely. I'll keep

10:55

digging how far after. So what is, if you were

10:57

to kind of spec out the first hour of your

10:59

day, the first every day

11:01

I do the water, I take any

11:03

environment. And then the first thing I do for doing else

11:05

my day is I do what I call priming. And

11:08

priming to me is different than meditating. I'm never really

11:10

a meditator per se. I know the value of it,

11:12

but the idea for me of sitting still and having

11:14

no thoughts just didn't really work out for me. I

11:17

was just a pain in the ass. And I just

11:19

thought it's not natural. And I just like, that's where

11:21

it works. But when I'm in nature, I feel that

11:23

form of meditation. When I stand on stage and someone

11:25

stands up and my brain, it's done. I don't even

11:28

know what it is, but person is suicidal. I've never

11:30

lost a suicide, for example, in 37 years, knock on

11:32

wood doesn't mean I won't someday, but I never have

11:34

it. Thousands and we followed up with them. So

11:37

it's like there's something that comes through me. And

11:39

it's quite meditative. It's like I experienced it as

11:41

a witness. You know, afterwards, it's one

11:43

of the most beautiful gifts in my life. So

11:45

I know that meditation. But for me, what priming

11:47

is, if you want to be, have a prime life, you got

11:49

to be in a prime state. And

11:52

weeds go automatically. I don't give a damn what it is. My

11:54

teacher, Jim Rohn, just say that. And so what I do is

11:56

I get up and I do a very simple process. I do

11:59

an explosive physiology. I've done the

12:01

water already, cold hot. Then

12:03

I do it with breath. I know you know

12:05

all forms of Eastern meditation. I'll understand that the

12:07

mind is the kite and breath is the string.

12:10

So if I want to move that kite, I move

12:12

the breath. So I have a specific pattern of breathing

12:14

that I do. I do 30 of these breaths and

12:16

I do them at three sets of 30. That

12:19

plays a profound physiological difference in my body.

12:22

From that altered state, I usually listen to

12:24

some music and I go for, I promise

12:26

myself 10 minutes and I usually go 30.

12:28

And you do that in this room that

12:30

we're sitting in? No, I do it all up. This one room is where

12:32

I do it. This has got a great vibe. I'll do this one. I

12:35

usually will go outside because I love the wind on my

12:37

face and I love taking the elements and so forth. But

12:39

I do it in multiple places. I'm on the road. I

12:41

do it. It doesn't matter what day. I do

12:44

not miss priming. The reason is you don't get

12:46

fit by getting lucky. You don't get

12:48

fit by working out for a weekend. You know you

12:50

live your life that way. Fitness is because it becomes

12:52

just part of who you are. So what I do

12:54

during that time is I do three simple things. I

12:57

do it minimum 10 minutes. Three minutes of it is

12:59

just me getting back inside my

13:01

body and outside of my head, feeling the

13:03

earth in my body experience and then feeling

13:05

totally grateful for three things. I'll

13:07

make sure one of them is something very,

13:09

very simple. The wind on my face, you know,

13:11

the reflection, the clouds that I just saw there.

13:14

But I don't just think gratitude. It's like I

13:16

let gratitude fill my soul because when you're grateful,

13:18

as we all know, there's no anger. It's

13:21

possibly angry and painful simultaneously. But when you're

13:23

grateful, there is no fear. You

13:25

can't be fearful and grateful simultaneously. So I think

13:27

it is one of the most important power emotions

13:29

of life. And also to me, there's nothing worse

13:31

than an angry rich man or

13:34

woman. You know, somebody's got everything and they're

13:36

pissed off. I want to surprisingly high number. Yes,

13:38

it is because the development of life is based

13:40

on expectation instead of appreciation. Agreed. I tell

13:42

people you want to change your life fast and

13:44

trade your expectation for appreciation. You have a

13:46

whole new life. So every day I anchor that

13:49

in and I do it very

13:51

deeply emotionally. Then the second three minutes I

13:53

do is a total focus on feeling

13:56

presence of God, if you will, however you

13:58

want to language that for yourself. But this

14:01

inner presence coming in and feeling that

14:03

heals everything in my body, my mind, my

14:05

emotions, my relationships, my finances, I see it

14:07

as solving anything that needs to be solved.

14:10

I experience the strengthening of my gratitude, of

14:12

my joy, of my strength, of my conviction,

14:14

of my passion. And I just let those

14:17

things happen spontaneously. And then I

14:19

focus on celebration and then service, because my whole life

14:21

is about services, it makes me feel alive. So I

14:24

flood myself with that, with a breathing pattern that

14:26

I take that does the opposite, takes the breath

14:28

down through my body and back up again. And

14:31

then the last three minutes are me focusing

14:33

on three things I'm going to make happen, my three to

14:35

thrive. I have some big things that I'll

14:37

do, and sometimes I'll do things that are smaller, but I

14:39

see them, feel them, experience them. So it's a really simplistic

14:41

process, 10 minutes, but I come out of

14:44

it in my power. It

14:46

doesn't matter if I had two hours sleep, I'm

14:48

now ready. And I do this even when I

14:50

have no sleep. That's how committed I am. And

14:52

as I say, I've always said, there's no excuse not

14:54

to do 10 minutes. If you don't have 10

14:56

minutes, you don't have a wife. And that's why I

14:58

got myself to do it. And now that I've done it, 20 to

15:01

30 minutes is almost always what it is, because it actually

15:03

feels extraordinary. I have to ask, what

15:05

type of music do you usually listen to during

15:07

that? I have a variety, but for that meditation,

15:09

I have one in particular, which is the Oneness

15:11

Meditation that a friend of mine made at Fus

15:13

from India that I find really profound. No

15:16

singing in it or anything like that. It's just the

15:18

sound of a vibration that's going on and I just

15:20

love it. But that's what I've done currently in the

15:22

past over the years. I've used all kinds of different

15:24

music, but I don't use modern music or pop music

15:26

or rock music. I do that to work out,

15:28

you know, rap. I don't know, it just feels weird

15:30

to be doing rap while you're meditating. But

15:33

again, what's different is I don't listen to meditation

15:35

because I look at it as it's priming courage,

15:37

love, joy. It's priming gratitude. It's priming strength. It's

15:39

priming accomplishment. It's priming, you know, when I'm doing

15:42

my gratitude piece, I'm doing the circle that's closest

15:44

to me and circling that out to everybody I

15:46

love and sending that energy and healing out to

15:48

them as well. So to me, that's

15:50

if you want prime time life, you got to prime

15:52

daily. I like the term priming

15:54

also because I think that most people who

15:57

struggle with meditation or even attempt to use

15:59

meditation are. utilizing it for that purpose. They're

16:01

doing it first in the morning. And you know,

16:03

when he said, if you don't have 10 minutes, you don't have a

16:05

life, it reminded me of something that Russell Simmons said, which was, if

16:07

you don't have 30 minutes to meditate, you need three hours. And

16:10

I don't always do 30 minutes, but I do meditate

16:12

in the morning. And it's been a very consistent pattern

16:15

among all of the people that have interviewed so far

16:17

on the podcast. I'll

16:20

tell you four things I saw that stood out. And

16:22

one is overly simplistic, and that's why people don't

16:24

pay attention to it. These guys pay attention to

16:26

it. They don't lose. Half

16:28

the teeth awakening is not losing, and

16:30

they are obsessed. Every single one is

16:32

obsessed about losing money. I

16:35

mean, a level of obsession that's mind boggling. It

16:37

isn't just these investors, you know, Sir Richard Branson,

16:39

for example, you know, people see

16:41

Richard and he's such an outgoing, playful, crazy guy.

16:43

He's kind of an introvert in some areas, but

16:45

when it comes to athletics and picking on challenges,

16:48

he's out in the world. But

16:50

you know, his first question in every business is what's the

16:52

downside and how he protected it. Like

16:54

when he did his piece of Virgin, I mean, that's

16:56

a big risk. I'm starting an airline. He went to

16:59

Boeing and negotiated a deal that he could send the

17:01

planes back if it didn't work out and he wasn't

17:03

liable. What's the level these guys think at? So they

17:05

look to see how do I not lose money first?

17:07

Because the average person has no clue. I lose 50%

17:10

in 2008. Well,

17:13

just what? You gotta make 100% to get even,

17:15

not 50%. Your principal's gone

17:17

down so much. So it's like, people don't understand. You lose

17:19

60%, it's 200% to get even. And

17:22

so the average person, you know, lives

17:24

in a world where they try not to lose

17:27

money, but they're not obsessed. He's not obsessed. Second

17:29

thing they all have in common, every single

17:31

one of them is obsessed with asymmetrical risk

17:33

reward, which is a big word. It simply

17:35

means they're looking to use

17:38

the least amount of risk to get the max

17:40

amount of upside. And that's what they live for.

17:42

Here's what I found with Paul Tudor at the very beginning of the

17:45

background track. When he said his best,

17:47

he made sure every single trade had what

17:49

he called a five to one. That

17:52

means if he was gonna risk a dollar, he wasn't about

17:54

to risk it unless he was certain he was gonna make

17:56

false. You're not always right. So

17:59

that's what. I risk a dollar make five

18:01

and I'm wrong. I can risk another dollar still make

18:03

four. I can be wrong

18:05

four times out of five. It's still

18:07

break even. Their secret is not the data. They're

18:09

not wrong. If they set themself up

18:12

where they risk small amounts for big rewards proportionally,

18:14

Paul, you know, he's right. But one out of

18:16

three times he still makes 20%. So

18:19

the average person with the dollar trying to make how

18:21

much? Dollar 10. Right.

18:23

About 10. If I could get 10%, wow,

18:25

my dollar, right? 20% would be

18:27

unbelievable. How often can you be wrong? Not

18:30

very often. Not at all. You're

18:32

in the hole. You're starting from the home. You got

18:34

to build back up. So they are asymmetrical. It's like

18:36

I was with Kyle Bass and how bass risks check

18:38

this out in the middle of

18:40

the subprime crisis. He made $2

18:43

billion out of 30 million because he risked for

18:45

every six cents. He risked. He had an upside

18:47

of a dollar. Six cents for a

18:49

hundred. Well, you could be wrong 15 times

18:52

and you're still okay in that area. I mean, he's

18:54

brilliant to figure it out. He's a genius figured out,

18:56

but that risk reward is why it is. He showed

18:58

his kids, he taught. I said, how do I teach

19:01

us the average investors? And he said, well,

19:03

you can teach them when I taught my kids. And I said,

19:05

how'd you do it? He goes, we bought nickels. I

19:07

said, what do you mean you bought nickels? He said,

19:09

well, I did research. I had this question. That's another

19:11

thing that all these guys do. They ask a better

19:13

question. We talked about, they get better answers, right? Better

19:15

quality question, better quality answer. What's wrong with me? You'll

19:17

come up with stuff. How do I make this happen?

19:20

No matter what, they'll come up with different answers. So

19:22

his question was, where in the

19:24

world is there a riskless trade with pull-up

19:27

side? And he

19:29

started looking around and he said, I'm worried about

19:31

inflation. So he started, well, gosh, of all the

19:33

currencies in the world, a nickel, what isn't added

19:35

up today, it's not made mostly of nickel, by

19:37

the way, he said, it's costing

19:39

the US government nine and

19:41

a half cents to make a nickel. That's how

19:44

our government functions. It

19:46

was being almost 10 cents to make

19:48

something worth half as much, right? Depending

19:50

on plan. Yeah, perfect plan. So he

19:52

said, but you know what? Just the

19:54

actual material value, right? Is 6.8, whatever

19:56

it was, six, something six and a

19:58

half, four round numbers. So he

20:00

said, if I buy a nickel, it's never going less than a

20:02

nickel unless you believe the US government's gone. So

20:05

I've got something that never goes down in value. So I

20:07

got a guaranteed return, and I'm not going to lose my

20:09

principle. But day one, it's worth

20:11

36% more than the day I bought

20:13

it. How many investments can you have 100% guarantee

20:15

of no loss and have 36%? I

20:17

said, yeah, but that's the belt value. And I saw they passed

20:19

the law a few years ago. I think Charlie Rangel, whoever it

20:21

was, was the one who pushed it through. And he goes, yeah,

20:23

but Tony said, that doesn't matter. So let me tell you

20:25

why. He said, look at pennies. When

20:28

they changed it from pure copper to 10 and

20:30

all things they changed, what happened to the old

20:32

pennies? There's a scarcity of them.

20:34

And now a penny from those days, the word 2 cents,

20:36

it's 100% more valuable. So

20:39

he said, at some point, the government cannot continue to

20:41

do something that costs twice as much. At

20:43

some point, they'll make a change in the materials.

20:45

And then all these nickels are worth an unbelievable

20:47

amount. So he said, I just show my kids,

20:50

you need to think different than everybody else. Don't

20:52

think I have to take huge risks for huge

20:54

rewards. Think, how do I take no risk and

20:56

get huge rewards? And because you ask the question

20:58

continuously and you believe in answer, you get it.

21:00

So he said, listen, if I could convert my

21:02

entire wealth in this, I said, you're insane. He

21:05

goes, I am insane. But it's the best possible

21:07

fundamental investment. He started telling me how to do

21:09

it. He bought 40 million nickels.

21:11

Wow. Well, you have 40 million nickels. It

21:13

fills up a room bigger than this. Right.

21:15

Better be on the ground floor. He had

21:17

his kids dragging up the end and laughing,

21:19

having fun. I mean, it's like their little

21:21

treasure. He can legitimately do like the Scrooge

21:23

McDuck backstroke. You're a pool full of nickels.

21:25

For real. So

21:28

that's a semester one. I'll give you one more and I'll shut the

21:31

hell up. I know. No, I'm not. You're asking me what they're... You're

21:33

telling me the difference. And I want you to know

21:35

there are differences. We can spend hours and hours

21:37

on differences. But when things are useful, is what's

21:39

aligned because then it gives something universal. Absolutely. The

21:41

other one for them is they absolutely beyond a

21:43

shadow of a doubt, know they're going to be

21:45

wrong. You will look at these talking

21:48

heads on television and people screaming you and hitting bells and

21:50

telling you what to buy. Right. Right. The

21:53

best on earth, the right values, right. The pebbles,

21:55

the, you know, I don't give it who you

21:57

talk about. You want to look at Carl Icahn.

21:59

They all know. going to be wrong. So

22:01

they sign up an asset allocation system that

22:03

will make them successful. They all agree asset allocation

22:05

is the single most important investment. There wasn't one

22:07

person in terms of your vehicle that was the

22:09

most important thing, no matter how they attacked it. Asset

22:11

allocation was the element there. And the last one

22:13

is they are lifelong learners. I mean,

22:15

these people are machines like you, like me, like

22:18

Peter, like most of the people you and I

22:20

share as friends, they just are

22:22

obsessed with knowing more. And because the more they

22:24

know, the more they realize what they didn't know,

22:26

and then they apply that and they go to

22:28

another level. And every time you think you're the

22:30

best you can be in anything in life, your

22:32

body, your emotions, spirit, your finances, there's always another

22:34

level. And these guys live by it. And

22:36

the last one that I found almost all of them were

22:38

real givers. Not just givers on

22:40

the surface like money givers, that's wonderful, but

22:42

really passionate about giving. And it

22:44

showed up once they thought what I was doing was legitimate

22:46

and was really real. I mean, then they're opening up every

22:49

hour of their time with something that many of these guys

22:51

will never get. Just

22:56

a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right

22:58

back to the show. This episode is

23:00

brought to you by AG1, the daily

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it out. And

24:01

now, Jerry Colona, co-founder

24:04

and CEO of executive

24:06

coaching and leadership development

24:09

firm, reboot.io, and author

24:11

of, Reboot, Leadership and the

24:13

Art of Growing Up. You

24:16

can find Jerry on Twitter, at

24:18

Jerry Colona. Jerry,

24:21

welcome to the show. Hey Tim,

24:24

it's great to be here. I'm really

24:26

excited to talk to you. We have

24:28

so much we could possibly talk about.

24:30

You and I have spoken before, had

24:32

quite a few conversations over the last,

24:34

god knows how many years, with particular

24:36

density a handful of years ago. And

24:39

I thought we could start with the spider

24:42

tattoo, which you just showed me over a

24:44

video. It is not a small tattoo, so

24:46

perhaps much like a

24:48

novel I greatly enjoy, The Girl with the Dragon

24:50

Tattoo. This would be the Coach with the Spider

24:53

Tattoo, but I don't know the story. Why

24:55

do you have a gigantic spider tattoo on

24:57

your chest? Yeah, so spider

24:59

is a good friend of mine.

25:01

Spider is my spirit guide. So

25:07

in 2007, I went on a

25:10

retreat, led by a

25:12

Jungian eco-psychologist named Bill

25:15

Plotkin. And

25:19

on that retreat, this is a long

25:21

story, Tim, you ready for it? Oh, I'm ready. We

25:24

have nothing but time. On that retreat,

25:26

I started to go really deep

25:28

into some of the important

25:31

structures of my life and

25:33

I had a dream. And

25:35

it was after a night of ecstatic

25:37

dancing, in which

25:40

I danced nearly naked in

25:42

a drum circle. And

25:44

I'd fallen asleep and I had this dream in

25:46

which I was going to a

25:48

house that I owned on Long Island. I

25:52

got to the house and the house was completely

25:54

white and I was really terrified.

25:57

And I Went into the house and it was supposed to be

25:59

my house. Didn't feel right and I

26:01

ended up in the basement and in the

26:03

basement basement for was covered with this sort

26:05

of like the for of a forest and

26:08

these mushrooms for sprouting up. And

26:10

I got very scared and I tore the

26:12

mushrooms from the ground and I ran out

26:14

of the house. So the next morning I

26:16

went into circle. Or. Get in and assured

26:18

that dream. And Dell

26:20

turns me and he says. Police.

26:24

Be a circle right now. I wanted to

26:26

go into the forest and which is fine

26:28

those mushrooms and I wanted to apologize to

26:30

those machines. And

26:32

ask it what it was that you were

26:34

supposed to hear from them that you were

26:36

too afraid to here. So I left the

26:38

circle on. I started wandering around and I'm

26:40

like what the fuck am I doing I'm

26:42

walking around us a forest trying to find

26:44

these mushrooms and I actually have to have

26:46

a conversation with these mushrooms. and to be

26:48

clear I was that ingesting the mushrooms games

26:51

I know who I'm talking to. Set of

26:53

a set of I'm walking around and. All.

26:55

The sudden I see and the ground. The.

26:57

Exact same white long stringy

26:59

mushrooms and I might sit

27:02

down. And I dropped my

27:04

knees and I start crying and I said i'm

27:06

so sorry I'm so sorry. What were you here

27:08

to teach me. And. They said

27:10

the my some said to me. Your.

27:13

To of first. Go. Into the

27:15

forest and find your place. And

27:17

now and like freaking out even more sorry

27:19

just standing up and unlike fumbling around And

27:21

this is a time through my life where

27:24

I'm just a freak rak and I'm crying

27:26

and I'm wandering through the forest and scientists

27:28

little sort of. Indentation This

27:30

little spot and I sit down and I'm

27:32

like sitting on my romp in. I've got

27:35

my hands in my on my knees and

27:37

my said. And. I'm just crying

27:39

and I look up. And. Awesome!

27:42

To my right is is gorgeous spiderweb.

27:45

And it actually has little do

27:47

drops glistening on it and like

27:49

okay this they look like crystals

27:51

and this little spider comes walking

27:53

out and says Virginia Garden Spider.

27:56

and i look at it and i said okay i

27:58

give up what the fuck are you because

28:01

I have no idea. And

28:03

the spider says to me, you

28:05

worry too much. Your

28:08

children are going to be fine. And

28:11

I just start shaking, because there's no

28:13

message that I needed to hear more than that. And

28:16

so I came out of that forest, I came

28:18

out of there at retreat. And

28:20

a few weeks later was my 45th

28:23

birthday, there about the

28:25

actual year doesn't matter so much as

28:27

the fact that it was my birthday.

28:29

And on my birthday, I got this

28:32

spider tattoo above my heart,

28:35

so that I can never forget the

28:37

fact that I worry too much, and

28:39

that my kids are going to be all right. So

28:42

that's the spider. Has it

28:45

remained relevant to

28:47

you? Is it something that you

28:49

consciously notice? Or because it's so

28:52

continuously present, do you find yourself

28:54

sometimes losing sight of it? Both.

28:58

Meaning, I'm often reminded, as I was when you

29:00

asked and you said, Oh, I'm going to ask

29:02

you about the spider. I'm

29:04

often reminded. So thank

29:07

you for reminding me that

29:09

the point of that spiders visitation

29:11

to me was to remember

29:14

who I am. And

29:16

I can use that reminder every day

29:18

because I forget every day, not

29:21

only do I forget who I am, but I

29:23

forget that my kids are all right. And that

29:25

I worry too much. Thank

29:27

you for the story. And it

29:31

makes me think of given

29:34

the spider Lakota

29:36

mythology and ikdemy

29:39

their various names for ikdemy, but ikdemy

29:41

is a spider trickster spirit that have

29:44

a hero. And perhaps

29:46

one of the ways that you

29:48

are a productive trickster is by

29:50

asking questions that are very uncomfortable,

29:54

or that can be very uncomfortable.

29:57

And I think that's one of your arts.

30:00

and we're gonna come back to that for sure.

30:03

But I thought we could revisit another

30:06

perhaps chapter or event in your life

30:08

that seems to have been very

30:11

impactful. Could you talk to, I

30:14

believe it was February 2002 after

30:17

something involving the Olympics or the

30:20

Olympic bid meeting, if

30:22

you know what I'm referring to. So

30:25

February 2002, I was

30:27

working at JP Morgan at the time. I

30:30

was co-leading the technology investment practice

30:32

for a fund that was about

30:34

$23 billion on a management, so

30:37

a large fund. And this was

30:40

after having left Flatiron Partners in

30:43

I think around the middle of 2001.

30:47

And just for clarity, that was billions with a

30:49

B. That was billions with

30:51

a B. Yeah, that's a large fund. It's

30:54

a large fund. I mean, but we

30:56

were very diversified. We did everything from

30:58

Brazilian railroads to funding the

31:00

launch of JetBlue Airlines to

31:05

the latest web-based startup in

31:07

some capacity. Anyway,

31:09

a few months prior, it had

31:12

been clear that my previous fund, Flatiron

31:14

Partners needed to be wound down. And

31:17

Fred and I needed to make some decisions

31:19

about what to do. And I

31:21

was in the midst of trying to sort through what I was gonna

31:23

do with the rest of my life. I did

31:26

not have the internal capacity to

31:28

raise a new fund. I know

31:31

now that I was in the

31:33

midst of a very profound depression

31:36

that was exacerbated by the attacks

31:38

on 9-11. And

31:40

one of the ways I responded to the attacks on

31:43

9-11 was to

31:45

throw myself into the Olympic bid effort.

31:48

We were bidding to bring the 2012 games to New York. And

31:53

for me, this was a profoundly

31:55

important effort because now you're

31:58

gonna make me cry. was attacked.

32:02

The city that I love. The

32:06

city where I grew up, the city of

32:08

Brooklyn, the place that had

32:10

so much meaning for me was attacked and I

32:13

remember the feeling helpless

32:16

during the fall following the

32:18

attack. Anyway, around the same time I had

32:20

to decide whether or not I was going

32:22

to accept an offer to join JP Morgan

32:25

which had been one of the funders

32:27

and the funding partners for flat-hearted

32:29

partners. Eventually I did

32:31

that and Fred linked up with Brad

32:33

Burnham and they launched Union Square Ventures.

32:36

By the way, worst decision of my

32:38

life but anyway to join JP Morgan

32:40

and not go to Union Square Ventures.

32:43

Anyway, so he went off and did

32:45

that. I joined JP Morgan and

32:47

by February 2002 I

32:50

was a wreck. What

32:53

you're referring to is February 2nd, 2002. I left an

32:58

Olympic bid committee meeting which

33:00

was being held downtown not

33:03

far from Ground Zero and I found

33:06

myself outside of the stinking

33:09

smoking hole

33:12

that was the pile as they

33:15

referred to it of Ground Zero

33:18

and I remember feeling completely overwhelmed

33:20

and feeling like there were ghosts

33:23

flying around that area and

33:26

I wanted to die and

33:29

I was obsessed with the idea of

33:31

running down to the Wall Street Subway

33:33

Station and leaping in front of our

33:35

subway and I ended

33:38

up deciding not to do that but

33:40

wisely and thankfully instead

33:42

called my therapist Dr.

33:44

Sayers who said

33:46

to me promptly get in a cab and come

33:48

out and see me and

33:51

I did just that and

33:54

saved my life at that point. What

33:57

did your therapist do when you

34:00

arrived, what was that session like?

34:02

Can you describe that session? So

34:05

Dr. Sayers was a psychoanalyst and so

34:07

I very traditionally almost like a New

34:09

York cartoon would lay on the couch.

34:13

I can't help but think of that and

34:15

think of like somehow it's a dog sitting

34:18

in the therapist chair. It's like some sort

34:20

of New Yorker thing. Anyway, so

34:22

I'm laying on the couch staring at the

34:24

ceiling as I did all

34:26

the time and I remember saying to

34:28

her, just stick a

34:30

fork in me, I'm fucking done. Put

34:32

me in the hospital, throw away the key and

34:35

you know to be clear the threat was real

34:37

because when I was 18 I did try

34:40

to kill myself and

34:42

so no fooling around

34:44

here. Right? I mean this isn't just

34:46

some idle ideation going

34:48

on here. This was like I

34:51

was in it. I was 38, I was

34:53

being cooked and I was

34:55

declaring that I was done and Dr. Sayers

34:58

who was also from Brooklyn said

35:00

the most magical thing possible. She said, what

35:02

the hell do you want to go to

35:04

a hospital for? The food sucks. Go

35:08

to Canyon Ranch. You'll get a massage every day. You'll

35:10

be so much better. What

35:13

is Canyon Ranch? Canyon Ranch is

35:16

a health spa and it's a

35:18

very nice place. I loved

35:20

it. It was really sweet but it's

35:23

about as far removed from a psychiatric hospital

35:25

as you can imagine because by the way

35:28

I did spend three months in a psychiatric

35:30

hospital so I sort of knew what I

35:32

was asking for if you will. So

35:35

that's what I did. I made plans to go down

35:38

to Arizona. I think it was the Arizona

35:40

branch of Canyon Ranch and that

35:44

moved was the beginning of me

35:46

being rebuilt. When and

35:48

why did you spend time in a psychiatric

35:50

hospital? I mentioned the suicide attempt.

35:53

I was 18 and I

35:56

had on January 2nd something

35:58

about the number two. January

36:00

2nd, I guess it

36:02

was 1981, I'm

36:05

losing track of the time. I

36:07

had just turned 18 and I

36:09

tried to kill myself. I

36:12

cut my wrists and

36:15

first went to, I was

36:17

taken to the emergency room, Jamaica

36:19

hospital, the Trump pavilion. That's

36:21

all I'm going to say. And

36:24

then I was transferred

36:27

from there to Creed Moore State

36:29

Hospital. Which is just

36:31

this side of hell. And

36:33

then from there after three days

36:36

at Creed Moore, I was transferred to a

36:38

hospital that actually is no longer a hospital,

36:41

Cabrini Medical Center in

36:43

Manhattan, where I was there for

36:45

three months. I'd love

36:47

to, I think this is a good

36:49

point to come

36:51

back to questions

36:54

and good questions and

36:56

you're very skilled in this department. So I'm

36:58

going to pose one of your questions to

37:00

you and you can feel free to tweak

37:02

it, paraphrase it, correct it any

37:05

way you like. But if you look back

37:08

to 2002, how

37:11

were you complicit in creating the

37:13

conditions in your life that

37:16

you would have said you didn't want? Nice

37:19

turn. Which is a great question.

37:21

So maybe you could repeat it

37:24

for folks because it is so important.

37:27

And this is something that has really

37:29

aided me when you introduced it to

37:31

me many moons ago. And

37:34

then if you could speak to that as it applies

37:36

to that particular period in your life. I'll

37:38

unpack the question. So the way I usually ask

37:40

the question goes like this. How

37:42

have I been complicit in

37:45

creating the conditions I say I don't want?

37:48

And the reason for the language is

37:50

very, very purposeful. I like

37:52

to use the word complicit and not responsible.

37:56

90% of the time when I first asked that question, people

37:58

hear the word. What have I been

38:01

responsible for the conditions? Compliciteness

38:04

is important because it's not, it's

38:06

relieving the person from the burden

38:08

of feeling responsible for all the

38:10

shit in their lives because

38:12

that's not fair to carry that

38:15

responsibility. But

38:18

it's helpful to think of

38:20

ourselves as somehow being served

38:22

by the challenges that

38:24

we're going through. The second piece

38:27

of that is that I say I don't

38:29

want and that sort of unpacks that notion

38:31

even further which is there's

38:33

something oftentimes about the way in which

38:36

we operate and the way we set

38:38

up the conditions of our lives to

38:41

be in unconscious service to

38:43

us. The psychological term

38:45

is secondary gain but there are ways

38:47

in which we find ourselves repeating patterns

38:50

in our life. We always date the

38:52

same type of person. We are always

38:54

finding ourselves in the same kind of

38:56

job. We're always frustrated by the

38:59

same sorts of situation. And

39:01

so it's really useful to sort of start

39:03

to unpack that. So that's

39:05

that question. And before

39:07

I even answer your question, I want to say

39:09

one other thing. The discomfort

39:12

of difficult and powerful questions

39:14

reminds me of something my daughter Emma likes to

39:17

say about me which is that imagine growing

39:20

up with a man who asks you questions

39:22

that you really rather not answer. So

39:28

shout out to Emma. So

39:32

I think that the way I was complicit.

39:35

I guess we should thank Emma for

39:37

being the crash test dummy for the

39:39

questions that you use now in your

39:41

career. You got it. Well

39:44

Emma and Michael, Emma and her brothers Michael

39:46

and Sam for sure, for sure. God

39:48

love them. They put up with

39:50

so much with me. Oh my God. Stop

39:52

coaching me. So

39:56

before I can answer

39:58

that question. Honestly,

40:00

what I would say is Dr.

40:02

Sayers taught me three additional questions.

40:06

And those questions are, what

40:08

am I not saying that needs to be said? What

40:11

am I saying that's not being heard? And

40:14

what's being said that I'm not hearing? So

40:16

again, what am I not

40:18

saying that needs to be said? What

40:21

am I saying that's not being heard? And

40:25

what's being said that I'm not hearing? And

40:27

so for me, the way I

40:29

was complicit was

40:32

I wasn't speaking. I

40:34

wasn't saying what I needed to say. And

40:37

more often than not, Tim, the suffering that

40:39

I encounter can

40:41

almost always be rooted back to somebody

40:43

not saying something that needs to be

40:46

said. And if there's a

40:48

little correlate to that and not

40:50

saying it or not saying it in

40:52

a way that it can be heard, because

40:55

oftentimes we speak without words,

40:58

but by our actions, and

41:00

we go unheard. Could you

41:02

give an example of something that you

41:05

needed to say during that period of

41:07

time that you didn't say

41:09

or that wasn't heard? Yeah,

41:11

something very, very simple. I

41:14

wasn't happy that despite all

41:16

the outward trappings of success,

41:19

I was empty and hollow

41:21

inside that I

41:23

wasn't speaking truthfully, that I

41:26

wasn't living in integrity, and

41:29

that I was too afraid of

41:31

losing the good graces

41:33

and esteem of everybody around me

41:36

to actually talk about the fact

41:38

that I did not want to do what I

41:40

was doing with my life at that point. Oh,

41:43

by the way, I didn't know what else I was going to do,

41:45

but that's a separate issue. Right?

41:49

I mean, I knew when I decided

41:51

not to continue working with Fred Wilson,

41:53

stupid man that I was, I knew

41:56

that it was actually the right thing for me to do. take

42:00

a job at JP Morgan, it

42:02

wasn't because I wanted to continue doing

42:04

that work. It's because I was too

42:06

terrified to do anything other than

42:09

that. And I certainly didn't

42:11

want to lose the esteem and

42:13

the good wishes. I mean, think about your reaction

42:16

just a few minutes ago, when

42:18

you pointed out that it was a $23 billion

42:20

fund. And even in that

42:22

moment, I felt a little bit of that pride

42:25

mixed with a little bit of the shame because I

42:28

walked away from that. And I

42:30

didn't want to lean into that space

42:32

of like, what if

42:34

I don't matter anymore? What

42:36

if nobody calls me? How

42:39

did you get over that? What are

42:41

the things that contributed to you making it

42:44

through those questions? Because a lot of people

42:47

seemingly don't make it through those questions, right?

42:49

They stay in a given

42:51

track in a given relationship, they stay stuck

42:53

exactly for 5, 10, 15, 20, or more

42:56

years. So

43:00

what a lifetime. What did Emerson

43:03

say? The vast majority of men,

43:06

let's update it. The vast majority of people

43:08

lead lives of quiet desperation. So

43:13

how did I get out of it?

43:15

I guess your question

43:18

implies an agency that I didn't feel

43:20

at the time, meaning,

43:22

huh, I wake up one day and I

43:24

decide I'm going to be

43:27

different. No, it wasn't that.

43:30

It was that I ran out of the

43:33

ability to continue to operate

43:35

anymore. It was that

43:37

moment above the lip

43:39

of Ground Zero. And

43:42

that moment where I chose not to leap

43:44

in front of the subway, but to get

43:46

into the cab and go to see Dr.

43:48

Sayers. And it was that moment where I

43:51

decided to follow her advice and go

43:53

to Canyon Ranch. It was the series

43:55

of moments where it was

43:57

like, okay, I know it's not working.

44:00

I admit it's not working, I

44:02

don't know what I'm going to do, but what

44:04

I have been doing hurts too much.

44:07

And if I have to suffer the

44:09

consequence of the loss of status, approbation,

44:13

affirmation, all the

44:16

external trappings, so be

44:18

it. It's like my soul

44:20

basically said, listen motherfucker, you

44:23

better sit down and pay attention

44:25

to your life because the

44:27

stakes are too high. I think I

44:29

read that in the Bhagavad Gita, if I'm correct.

44:35

It's the Buddha from Brooklyn. Now,

44:47

how did you find your way

44:49

to, I'll

44:51

use this term, it may not be the best term, but how did

44:54

you find your way to coaching? So

44:56

on that plane ride from

44:58

New York to Arizona to Canyon

45:01

Ranch, I read three books.

45:03

When Things Fall Apart by Ani Pema

45:06

Children, Faith by

45:08

Sharon Salzberg, and Let

45:11

Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer. And

45:13

before fully answering your question, I'll give

45:15

you this. I must have

45:17

done something really, really good in a

45:19

past life because I have the benefit

45:21

of considering all three of those people.

45:24

Ani Pema, Sharon Salzberg, and

45:26

Parker Palmer as my friends.

45:29

I didn't know them at the time, but

45:31

I have the good grace and

45:33

the incredible good fortune to say

45:36

I'm friends with them. They are my

45:38

teachers. So what was

45:40

your question? The question

45:43

was how did you find your way to

45:45

coaching? And just to reiterate something

45:47

that you just said, at the time they

45:49

were not your friends. That's

45:51

right. But you had the books. That's

45:53

right. And how you found your way

45:55

to coaching. You went back to the plane ride. Right.

46:00

books. And those three books were really

46:02

important because they did lead indirectly

46:04

to me becoming a coach. Each

46:07

one of those books presented something

46:09

different to me. Faith presented this

46:11

notion of really being honest with

46:13

myself with what was going on

46:15

when things fall apart. It was the

46:17

first laying out of Buddhist

46:20

Dharma as a path, but

46:22

it was Let Your Life Speak, which

46:24

is a brilliant, beautiful, short little

46:27

collection of essays that really shifted

46:29

the dialogue for me, partially because

46:31

Parker is so open and honest

46:33

and authentic about his own struggles

46:35

and depression. Okay, so to

46:37

your question, let me fast forward it. Probably four

46:39

or five years later, I'm still

46:42

working my way through all the

46:45

issues that I'm carrying at that point and

46:47

trying to sort myself out. I'm

46:50

in an office. I'm sharing office space

46:52

with Fred Wilson and Brad Burnham from

46:54

Union Square Ventures. But I have a

46:57

little sub office within their space and

46:59

I'm doing a bunch of different things. I'm

47:01

serving on a bunch of boards of directors.

47:04

I'm making little angel investments here and there,

47:06

but I'm just sort of hanging around the

47:08

hoop, if you will. And this young guy

47:10

comes to see me. He's there to quote

47:12

network. This is the thing everybody is supposed

47:14

to do. Network is way too new job.

47:17

And you ask about questions. So

47:19

here's the story. So he

47:21

comes in and he's a lawyer, and he wants

47:23

to get a job in the startup industry. So

47:25

he wants to find a way to get some

47:27

sort of position. And I turned

47:29

to him and he's probably in his late 20s. And

47:32

I said, I'm happy to help you, but just to

47:34

answer a question for me, it's

47:36

kind of my first coaching question, right? And I

47:38

said, what made you to become a

47:40

lawyer in the first place? And

47:42

he starts crying to me and he starts telling me

47:44

about pleasing his father and

47:47

about how it was, you know,

47:49

his father had taught him that if

47:51

all else fails, at least he

47:54

could make a living as a lawyer. And

47:56

the kid was just miserable. Just

47:59

miserable. And so

48:01

I reached up to the shelf and I pulled down a

48:03

copy of Let Your Life Speak and I said, here, read

48:05

this. And they get back to me. He

48:08

left the office and I turned around and

48:10

I said, fuck, I think I need to be a coach.

48:14

I need to do that more frequently. And

48:17

so within a few days I had signed up for

48:20

a coach training program. Okay, let

48:22

me pause for one second. So what did

48:24

you feel? What did

48:26

you experience? What was

48:28

it about that encounter that

48:30

made you so decisively say that to

48:33

yourself? A couple of things.

48:35

I could see relief in his eyes. The

48:38

first thing I felt was

48:40

empathy. I knew his

48:42

feelings because even though the

48:44

content of the story was different, my

48:48

experience was so similar.

48:50

I had been so ruled by fears that

48:53

I was living in a box. I had lived in

48:56

a box that was not of

48:58

my making. It was somebody else's box.

49:01

It was the wrong box. It

49:03

was the wrong suit of clothes. It was

49:05

not me. And I could feel all that.

49:07

And when I reached for Let Your Life

49:10

Speak, I was reaching for the very same

49:12

thing that had gotten me out of the

49:14

box. And I said, here, here's

49:16

a path. And there

49:18

was just relief, relief, not that he had

49:20

read the book yet, but just relief that

49:22

somebody actually understood his feelings and

49:25

had given words to his feelings that he hadn't

49:27

been able to give to. Remember that

49:29

question? What have I not been saying that I

49:31

need to say? There was that

49:33

going on for him. So then

49:36

I said, wait a minute, dude,

49:39

you can do something about relieving

49:41

suffering. You're not the

49:43

mess. And it's not always just your

49:45

prefrontal cortex that's going to figure everything

49:47

out. Because I

49:49

didn't have an answer for him. I didn't say,

49:51

here, here's the job you should do that's perfect

49:53

for you so that you no longer go to

49:55

bed at night feeling like crap, wondering

49:58

whether or not you should wake up in the morning. I

50:00

just had to listen to my heart and

50:03

I did something completely

50:06

non-intuitive. I reached onto my bookshelf

50:08

and I gave him a book. And

50:11

the feeling that I had

50:13

was poignant

50:15

pain coupled with the

50:17

sense of being able to do something. I

50:20

could be helpful. This may be

50:22

overreaching, but how much of your

50:24

call to coaching do you

50:26

think, if any, was

50:29

finding relief in taking the focus

50:31

outside of yourself? It

50:34

wasn't just the call to

50:36

begin coaching. This

50:39

helps me every day. This

50:41

is the craziness about the work that

50:44

I do, about living my vocation like

50:46

this. Even

50:48

today, in my worst moments, when

50:51

I can be with another

50:53

person's pain, by the

50:55

way, which is the root etymological meaning

50:58

of the word compassion, to

51:00

be with someone else's feelings, I

51:03

magically feel relief from my

51:05

own unbearable feelings. Because

51:08

I think that's the essence of being

51:11

human together. We get to actually, oh,

51:14

geez, we look at each other across the campfire.

51:16

I keep imagining us in

51:19

sort of pre-civilization going, like

51:21

looking across the campfire, and again, must be

51:24

in Brooklyn, and going, dang, it's hard. Isn't

51:26

it hard being human? Yeah, it's

51:29

really hard. Okay, let's do this

51:31

together. I

51:33

think the call was that, but if

51:36

I may, I think the call was also to

51:40

retroactively go back in time and

51:42

save myself. Interesting. See,

51:44

this makes a lot of sense to me. In

51:47

saying that, do you mean, and I don't know if

51:49

you've ever heard of IFS, internal family

51:51

systems, in so much as by

51:54

helping people who are

51:56

in similar positions

51:58

with similar states or places. pains

52:00

as you experienced earlier, you are

52:02

healing that younger version of yourself

52:05

in that capacity. Well, first of all,

52:07

to answer your quick question, I have heard of IFS.

52:10

I have not been trained in IFS,

52:13

and I know a few of my

52:15

clients have benefited from it. But broadly

52:17

speaking, you want to understand Buddhism,

52:20

what we're talking about right now. You

52:22

want to understand wisdom traditions across the

52:24

world. It's what we're talking

52:26

about right now. It's like even

52:29

the best of Christianity, even

52:31

the best of what Jesus taught. It's like,

52:33

God, I mean, I just imagine him exasperated,

52:36

sitting in his hands, for God's sake, love

52:38

one another. Just, you know, come on,

52:40

can you just stop the nonsense and

52:42

just reach across and just be with

52:44

each other? Think of it this way,

52:46

Tim. There's almost like a universal wellspring

52:51

of pain that you and I share. And

52:54

in a similar fashion, there's a universal

52:56

wellspring of happiness and joy that you

52:58

and I share. And

53:00

so if you're in this painful spot,

53:03

I can tap that universal

53:05

wellspring of happiness and joy

53:07

and point it a little bit more at your

53:09

suffering. And you can do the same for me. So

53:12

let me ask you a question. And

53:15

you and I have spent a good amount of time on

53:17

the phone together. And to

53:20

those people listening who are self-described

53:22

high achievers, who don't want to

53:24

lose their edge, who are looking

53:26

for the tactical practical, if they

53:29

hear that and they're kind of rolling their eyes and

53:32

they're like, all right, you had me at

53:34

9-11, you had me at the books, but

53:37

I don't see how this applies. I'm too busy for

53:40

that shit. I don't have time to go to Burning

53:42

Man and do fire dancing. Like this, this is serious

53:44

business. I have serious work to do. Sorry.

53:47

I can relate that to someone who in

53:49

their first meeting fits that profile,

53:52

perhaps. What do you do with them in

53:54

a first meeting? My job

53:56

isn't to necessarily convince people that

53:58

they need help. And so

54:00

the first thing I say is, and the first thing

54:02

I would say to anybody who's listening, is

54:05

if everything's working for you, go at

54:07

it. Have a great time. Go enjoy yourself. Go

54:09

ahead. But you know, there's a simple

54:11

little trick. You know, I have this little reputation that

54:14

I make people cry and all this stuff. You

54:16

know what I do? I ask them a

54:18

simple question. How are you? And

54:20

I often follow it up with like, no, really,

54:23

don't bullshit me. How are you? How

54:25

are you really feeling? Because

54:27

here's the thing. You described this would-be

54:29

resistant person as a high achiever. Here's

54:32

the thing about high achievers. In

54:34

my experience, high achievers early on in their life

54:36

figure out how to get an A. They

54:39

figure it out because the whole system

54:41

is geared towards that grade. And

54:44

then we take that entire system from our childhood

54:46

and we move it into work. And

54:48

it's just getting A's, getting A's, getting A's,

54:51

getting A's. And the highest achieving people oftentimes

54:53

come into me scared

54:56

because there's a little whispery voice in their ear

54:58

that says, you are a

55:01

fucking fraud. You have no

55:03

idea. And when they figure out that all

55:05

you're doing is reading the tea leaves and

55:07

what it takes to get an A, they're

55:10

going to toss you out of the trap. They're

55:12

going to toss you out on your ass. They're

55:14

going to push you away. Or

55:17

they say to themselves, because

55:19

they haven't experienced loss

55:23

or they haven't experienced failure.

55:25

They think they haven't experienced failure. They're

55:27

just waiting. They're just playing a waiting

55:30

game. They're just waiting for something for

55:32

fate to catch up to them and

55:34

bang, the ham's going to come down.

55:37

Now, if this resonates with you,

55:41

you might also then recognize the

55:43

anxiety that comes in where

55:45

you put your head down at the pillow at night and

55:47

you go, my God, I don't know if

55:49

I can do it again tomorrow. Maybe

55:52

they'll catch me tomorrow. And

55:54

if that's what you're working with, then

55:57

there's an opportunity in all that we're

55:59

talking about. Forget universal suffering, forget

56:01

about well springs, forget about spiders,

56:03

forget about burning man, which

56:05

I've never been to by the way and I

56:08

don't believe in substances, but that's all a different

56:10

issue. Forget about all that stuff. I've been three

56:12

times. I'm a fan at

56:15

least once in your lifetime. God

56:17

bless. Separate

56:19

conversations. So continue. The truth

56:21

is I'm probably too scared to ingest any

56:23

material inside of my body, but leave that

56:25

aside for a moment. Forget

56:27

all that. Okay. I'll

56:29

be esoteric, stuff like that. Here's

56:32

the simple question. How's it working for you?

56:36

If it's not working for you, why

56:39

are you in pain? Why are you doing

56:41

it? And would you like a

56:43

little relief? And here, you want to know

56:45

the secret, like nasty little trick that I

56:47

play? Yes. I

56:50

get them if they either have children or

56:52

hope to have children someday. I

56:54

will ask them, what would

56:56

they like their children to feel when

56:59

they're at the same age? Because

57:01

if they would like them to feel something other

57:03

than what they're feeling, now's the

57:05

time to start changing the way

57:07

they organize their life. That's

57:09

a really good question. What

57:12

if, and this could combine with

57:14

what we're talking about right now, someone

57:16

comes in, they don't feel imposter

57:19

syndrome necessarily, but they are simply

57:21

overwhelmed. You ask them how they

57:23

are, no really, and they're like,

57:25

I'm good, I'm just busy, I'm

57:27

stressed, I just have too much,

57:29

I'm overwhelmed. If that's

57:31

the breed of

57:34

client that shows up, how

57:36

do you begin to work with that?

57:40

Well, once you've established a

57:42

certain level of trust and

57:44

relating through empathy and

57:48

don't necessarily try to step in and

57:50

fix it. The first question

57:52

I would start to ask or elicit is

57:55

how is that being busy serving you? Remember

57:59

that how have I? I've been complicit in creating the

58:01

conditions I say I don't want. Here's

58:03

the thing about busyness. Busyness

58:06

can feel fucking awesome. It

58:09

can feel so amazing internally.

58:13

Like look at all the great stuff I got done externally.

58:16

Look at how busy I am. I

58:18

must be important. That's an

58:21

interesting statement. Busyness can

58:23

also serve to distract you from

58:26

those voices inside that say, hey,

58:30

I'm not happy. Hey,

58:33

I'm not happy. Hey, I'm serious.

58:35

I'm going to throw you down

58:37

on the ground with some sort

58:40

of somatic illness, lower

58:42

back problem, irritable bowel syndrome,

58:44

migraine headaches. That was my

58:46

specialty. I'm going to

58:48

throw you down until you pay

58:50

attention to me. Okay. You're too

58:52

busy. Okay. I gotcha. Okay. Cause

58:55

you know, here's the thing too. Somewhere around 35 to 50

58:57

years old, the

59:00

system start to break down. The

59:02

systems that got you out of childhood, that got

59:04

you into adulthood, that got you established, that got

59:06

you to the point where you think he got

59:09

it all figured out. And then all of a

59:11

sudden, holy shit, the whole thing starts to collapse.

59:14

Now what do I do? And when I

59:16

see someone who's busy, who's kind

59:18

of in the early twenties, I

59:20

see a striver trying

59:23

to establish themselves. But

59:25

when I see somebody who's

59:27

busy, who actually doesn't need

59:29

to be that way, I

59:32

get really, really curious what

59:34

internal need is trying to be met

59:37

by all that busyness. That's

59:39

the place to inquire. What are some

59:41

of the more common

59:43

patterns that you see with that

59:45

busyness? I'm very curious about this.

59:49

I promise not to coach you, but why is

59:51

it so curious? No, just kidding. I

59:53

can tell you, no, I can tell you, I can tell you

59:56

why it's curious or interesting to me. We can jump into some.

59:58

I'm game. I'm game. I am

1:00:00

to hit some volleys if you want. Well,

1:00:02

for instance, I'm looking at, and apologies to

1:00:04

everyone I have not replied to, but that

1:00:07

is sort of my ethos

1:00:09

and the gist of everything I've

1:00:11

written. So I feel like I've

1:00:14

bought some permission, but I currently have 618,952

1:00:16

unread email and

1:00:21

combination on two different tracks of 165 plus 255

1:00:23

unread text messages, and

1:00:27

that's the tip of the iceberg. So I

1:00:29

actually feel surprisingly low

1:00:32

anxiety about that, nonetheless,

1:00:34

a small amount of anxiety and

1:00:36

in the process of literally

1:00:39

rebooting those various phone numbers

1:00:41

and addresses because it's not

1:00:44

physically possible to address that. Right.

1:00:47

And it's perhaps similar to many

1:00:50

of your experiences. It's given me an

1:00:53

opening line for

1:00:56

common sentiment

1:00:58

of commiseration that opens up

1:01:00

the floodgates to similar types

1:01:02

of problems in other people.

1:01:04

So they confess. I'm

1:01:06

like the productivity guy in the confessional box

1:01:09

for people who want to tell me about

1:01:11

similar things. And those are a few things

1:01:13

that come to mind when you ask me

1:01:15

why is that curious? And I think it's

1:01:17

very common. I just think it's very common.

1:01:20

Yeah, I think it's hugely common. And I

1:01:22

think that you ask the question by using

1:01:24

a particular descriptive word, you described it as

1:01:26

feeling overwhelmed. And if

1:01:28

we were to do a dream analysis, we

1:01:31

might talk about being flooded. That's

1:01:33

typically the psychological

1:01:35

signal that the

1:01:38

system is overwhelmed. So

1:01:40

again, we use our construction and

1:01:42

we talk about complicitness, not necessarily

1:01:45

responsibility. I'm gonna use you as

1:01:47

an example as a high achiever who

1:01:49

is incredibly busy. He's been

1:01:51

so busy that he has over 600,000

1:01:53

unanswered emails and

1:01:58

we'll just stick on that one for a moment. By the

1:02:00

way, you're allowed to declare bankruptcy at that

1:02:02

point. Okay, you're done. And what I hear

1:02:05

you say is I no longer, you said

1:02:07

I don't feel anxiety, just a small piece

1:02:09

of it. I would argue that

1:02:11

you probably have been so overwhelmed by it that

1:02:13

you've actually given up feeling anxious about it and

1:02:15

it's just like, forget it, I'm not going to

1:02:18

get to it. So here's the

1:02:20

question for you and you don't have to answer it

1:02:22

but hang out with it. A couple of

1:02:24

questions. The first might be something like,

1:02:26

when did you start feeling overwhelmed? And

1:02:30

how long have you felt overwhelmed?

1:02:33

And while feeling overwhelmed, did

1:02:36

you take on more tasks? In

1:02:38

your case, Tim, did you sign up for another book

1:02:41

and another show or another thing

1:02:43

which only produced more

1:02:46

stuff? Because that's what I do. If

1:02:48

there's a tiny bit of open space

1:02:50

in my life, I tend to fill

1:02:52

it. And then the magical question is,

1:02:54

how familiar is that feeling and how

1:02:56

does that feeling serve you? I'm

1:02:59

willing to play on this one. And

1:03:01

I will say before I get started that

1:03:03

I do think I have much

1:03:06

better systems and rules and

1:03:10

perspectives in place now. But

1:03:12

to answer your questions, I'd say it started probably

1:03:15

middle of undergraduate college.

1:03:18

Right. And I guess this feeling of overwhelm, or

1:03:20

at least that's when it was most noticeable. And

1:03:24

the feeling of overwhelm was

1:03:26

then kind of ebbed and

1:03:29

flowed. But certainly up until

1:03:31

at least 2004, my

1:03:33

solution to feeling anything I didn't want to

1:03:35

feel was to add more activities. Okay, can

1:03:38

you just pause and say that again? Your

1:03:41

solution to? Feeling anything I

1:03:43

didn't want to feel. In retrospect, I recognize that's

1:03:45

what it was. So if I

1:03:47

felt anything I didn't want to feel, I

1:03:49

would add more activities to drown

1:03:51

it out. Some people use heroin, some people use

1:03:54

coke, some people use work. And

1:03:56

I used activities. At the time, I

1:03:58

also used stimulants. I was in

1:04:00

fact using both. But

1:04:04

that changed quite a bit in

1:04:06

2004 by building in empty space.

1:04:09

And I think that

1:04:11

still now there are vestiges of

1:04:15

behaviors that in

1:04:17

some sense helped me to find a

1:04:19

toehold in financial

1:04:22

security that are no longer serving me,

1:04:24

that are nonetheless default gears, if that

1:04:26

makes sense. And

1:04:28

to that extent, the

1:04:31

vast amount of my focus for the

1:04:33

last year has been on saying no

1:04:35

to practically everything, more than a year.

1:04:37

I mean the last several years. Nonetheless

1:04:40

there is a part of me, I think you

1:04:42

had a, was it a crow, a raven on

1:04:44

the shoulder? Crow, a crow. I said you

1:04:46

were like, well come back to the crow. And

1:04:49

no it's not another dream sequence for people

1:04:51

wondering. No drug induced dream sequence, correct. Yeah,

1:04:53

yeah, we'll come back to the crow. Something

1:04:56

on my shoulder saying you might

1:04:58

need this person. You

1:05:01

might need this person in

1:05:03

reference to any given

1:05:05

email that might come in. And so

1:05:07

for what I find in my life

1:05:09

is that the vast majority of stuff

1:05:12

is clearly noise. And

1:05:14

I can ignore. There are categories

1:05:16

of activities. I'm not particularly good

1:05:18

at moderation, whether that's with chips

1:05:21

or chocolate or speaking engagements

1:05:24

or fill in the blank. There are certain

1:05:26

things where I need

1:05:28

to either be considering

1:05:32

each item that presents itself or not consider

1:05:34

them at all as a category. So I've

1:05:36

decided certain things just from a binary perspective

1:05:38

like speaking I will not do any of.

1:05:41

Unless they happen to be 10 minute drive from

1:05:43

my house and fit 20 other parameters.

1:05:45

Otherwise it's an automatic no and I

1:05:47

don't even see it. Where

1:05:49

I think I find more difficulty

1:05:51

is where there are people

1:05:53

who have been very helpful

1:05:56

in the past who perhaps were

1:05:59

very supportive. in the early days who now

1:06:03

have lots of favors to ask. But

1:06:05

if I'm listening to my body, it's

1:06:08

absolutely not a full body yes. There's a large part

1:06:10

of me that knows I do not want to acquiesce,

1:06:12

I do not want to agree, I do not want

1:06:15

to accept, I do not want to do whatever it

1:06:17

is they're asking me to do because it doesn't

1:06:20

feel right and or

1:06:22

it's unreasonable. Nonetheless, those are

1:06:24

the types of emails that tend to

1:06:26

pile up. And those are the types

1:06:29

of emails also that even if I

1:06:31

have someone like an assistant or multiple

1:06:33

assistants filtering, the names

1:06:35

are probably noticeable enough or

1:06:38

old enough that they'll get brought to

1:06:40

my attention. So let's see here, is

1:06:43

it familiar? Yes, it's familiar. How does it

1:06:46

serve me? This

1:06:48

I have more trouble with. So maybe you

1:06:50

could walk me through, I would imagine many

1:06:52

people, I'm not gonna say it doesn't serve

1:06:54

me because I'm willing to, at least

1:06:57

as a thought exercise to accept that if

1:06:59

it didn't serve me, I would have already

1:07:01

found some clean solution or I wouldn't have

1:07:03

any emotional difficulty fixing it. How

1:07:06

would you walk me through figuring out how

1:07:08

it serves me? Well, I wanna reflect back a

1:07:10

couple of things that I'm hearing so that we

1:07:12

can just sort of establish it. The first thing

1:07:14

I would say is I really admire all the

1:07:16

filtering that you've put into your life and

1:07:19

the structures that you've put into your life

1:07:21

to create boundaries and saying

1:07:24

no. And I think

1:07:26

that the rules as you define them

1:07:29

and they might be rules for like,

1:07:31

hey, every morning I'm gonna do X

1:07:33

and every afternoon I'm gonna do Y or I'm

1:07:35

only gonna work from ours. Those

1:07:38

are all important, but

1:07:41

ultimately insufficient for

1:07:44

complete relief from

1:07:47

some of these feelings. They're really,

1:07:49

really helpful. They've

1:07:51

reduced your anxiety from overwhelming

1:07:54

to small, but

1:07:56

620,000 emails. Right?

1:08:00

I want to bring your attention to two other feelings.

1:08:02

One was, you said, something

1:08:05

about missing something that

1:08:08

might be important to you, seeing

1:08:10

someone that has been helpful to you

1:08:12

in the past, or something

1:08:14

that's important to you, that you might

1:08:17

miss something. So that's

1:08:19

one fear, is that right? I

1:08:21

would say so. I think the greater

1:08:23

fear is that people who

1:08:26

would at least believe that they have

1:08:28

supported me without asking for a quid

1:08:30

pro quo in the past would

1:08:32

get upset, and this does happen,

1:08:35

it has happened, where people take

1:08:37

things very personally. And

1:08:39

I recognize I can't take responsibility

1:08:41

for everyone else's feelings and responses

1:08:43

to things. I do think that's

1:08:45

a fear. More than missing an

1:08:47

opportunity, because I'm not concerned

1:08:50

about missing financial opportunities.

1:08:53

Not anymore. Not anymore,

1:08:55

I once was, but I also, I

1:08:57

stopped start up investing completely

1:08:59

in 2015 because

1:09:03

the noise simply wasn't

1:09:05

worth it. The cortisol fueled

1:09:08

unnecessary hurrying associated

1:09:12

with that culture was causing

1:09:14

more harm than good, so I stopped in 2015. So

1:09:17

I missed a pretty decent bull run, which

1:09:19

I'm okay with. So it's

1:09:21

not a financial concern so much as

1:09:25

social costs and fallout,

1:09:27

if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, what

1:09:29

I'm hearing is a fear of disappointing someone who

1:09:31

matters to you. Yeah, yeah,

1:09:33

that would be a piece of it.

1:09:35

That would be a piece of it,

1:09:37

and this is helpful to me to

1:09:39

talk through because it's not just disappointment.

1:09:42

In some cases, I can't, I actually

1:09:45

really dislike interacting with some of

1:09:47

these more recent acquaintances,

1:09:50

but for whatever reason, they

1:09:52

view their position as very entitled in

1:09:55

so much as they expect a fast

1:09:57

and very compliant response from me on

1:09:59

many things. and they

1:10:01

know a lot of people in the same

1:10:03

circles and so that

1:10:05

causes concern. So there's an

1:10:08

implicit internal existential threat. I

1:10:10

think that's fair. I think that's fair to

1:10:12

say. Yeah, if I can say one more

1:10:14

thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just so I don't

1:10:16

sound totally like

1:10:19

I'm living in a land of make-believe,

1:10:21

I have run into many, many instances.

1:10:23

This is, you know, more than a

1:10:26

dozen at least where, say, someone will send me

1:10:28

an email, they want a blurb for a new

1:10:30

book, they want this, this, this, this, this, and

1:10:32

this. And by the way, it's coming out in

1:10:35

four weeks or whatever it is. There's some set

1:10:38

of requests slash demands. I

1:10:40

don't reply. This has happened with journalists

1:10:42

as well, where for whatever reason, I

1:10:44

won't help them and then a hit

1:10:46

piece comes out. Or then

1:10:48

there's some type of blowback slash

1:10:51

vengeful behavior, whether that's shit talking

1:10:53

me on stage or whatever it

1:10:55

might be. So there's evidence to

1:10:58

support the fear. But

1:11:00

here I am, I've survived, I'm fine. That

1:11:03

is also true. So I just wanted to add that

1:11:05

color. Right. And so I

1:11:07

want to reflect back to you empathetically

1:11:10

and rationally, you're not nuts. At

1:11:13

least not in that department. That's right.

1:11:15

That's right. So what I often say

1:11:18

is that there are three basic risks

1:11:20

that we're all trying to manage all

1:11:22

the time. Love, safety

1:11:25

and belonging. We want to love and

1:11:27

be loved. We want to

1:11:29

feel safe, physically, emotionally, spiritually.

1:11:31

And we want to

1:11:33

feel that we belong. And what

1:11:35

I'm hearing, so if you resonate with

1:11:37

those at all, the existential

1:11:40

threat, and I want to bring your attention

1:11:42

to existential, because I think that the threat

1:11:44

is to the essence of who you are,

1:11:47

or at least the perceived threat. And

1:11:50

when someone trash talks you on stage,

1:11:52

what they're trash talking is you,

1:11:55

the you, not the

1:11:57

meat bag, but the

1:12:00

essence of you. And

1:12:02

so I think

1:12:04

that the fear, I know for myself, that

1:12:06

the fear of disappointing others is

1:12:09

a threat to my belonging. I'm

1:12:11

not going to be in my family anymore. My

1:12:14

children won't love me. My

1:12:17

partners won't love me. And

1:12:19

so therefore, I

1:12:21

will be unsafe. I

1:12:24

will be bereft. I'll be by

1:12:26

myself. I'll be alone in the woods, fending

1:12:29

for myself. And

1:12:31

there are few things that threaten me more than

1:12:34

the threat to belonging. I

1:12:36

don't know. Does that resonate with you? It

1:12:39

does resonate. I think that a

1:12:41

lot of what I've done and

1:12:43

been able to do has been

1:12:45

dependent on maintaining

1:12:49

very long-term relationships

1:12:52

with people who I enjoy being friends with, who happen

1:12:54

to also be very, very good at what they do,

1:12:56

whatever that is. And so

1:12:58

I think there's a bit of, you know, what got you here

1:13:00

won't get you where you want to go or won't get you

1:13:02

there. And it does resonate. And

1:13:04

we don't have to jump to this. But

1:13:06

what I'd love to talk about or listen

1:13:08

to you describe, because

1:13:10

I think a lot of people would benefit from it

1:13:13

is when you run into someone who,

1:13:16

like me, is fielding

1:13:19

a lot of inbound. And it

1:13:21

could be from one person, but

1:13:23

they for whatever reason are having

1:13:25

difficulty saying no or establishing boundaries.

1:13:27

What are tools or books

1:13:29

or approaches that you've found helpful

1:13:32

for people in

1:13:34

that position, whether it's nonviolent

1:13:36

communication or fill in the blank, or

1:13:40

questions, anything at all?

1:13:42

How do you begin to advise someone

1:13:44

like that? Well, there's a couple of

1:13:47

things come to mind. And I'm going

1:13:49

to reference two friends of ours, Seth

1:13:51

Godin and Sharon Salzburg. The first thing

1:13:53

was when I was really struggling with

1:13:56

this early on in my career,

1:13:58

my adult career, Seth Godin. and gave

1:14:00

me some wonderful advice which boiled down to

1:14:02

this phrase, I wish I could but I

1:14:04

can't. And that became a

1:14:06

kind of interesting little fence around

1:14:09

my life, a boundary marker. And so

1:14:11

the idea was that you would be

1:14:13

able to say to someone, someone

1:14:15

who reaches out, can you do this favor for

1:14:17

me, this thing for me? And you get to

1:14:19

say, I wish I could but I can't. So

1:14:22

you just pause around that. Problem is, of course,

1:14:24

there's an inauthenticity that can set in,

1:14:26

which is, I actually don't wish I

1:14:28

could. And

1:14:30

I can but I can't but I really don't

1:14:32

want that. Yeah, that's a whole nother one. It's

1:14:34

like, yeah, but I won't. And so then it

1:14:36

becomes a little bit of like, listen, I'm trying

1:14:39

to take my own advice to heart. And

1:14:42

the advice I give clients is

1:14:44

to take care of themselves first. And

1:14:47

so that becomes a kind of useful tool.

1:14:50

But then you reference something before

1:14:52

about not being responsible for someone

1:14:54

else's feelings. And that brought

1:14:57

to mind a teaching that Sharon

1:14:59

Salzberg gave me, which goes like this, all

1:15:01

beings own their own karma. Their

1:15:04

happiness or unhappiness depend upon their

1:15:06

actions, not my wishes for them.

1:15:09

Say that one more time, please. Yeah,

1:15:11

so all beings own

1:15:13

their own karma. Karma

1:15:16

being the cause and effect, their consequences

1:15:18

of their actions. Their

1:15:20

happiness or unhappiness depend upon

1:15:23

their actions, not my

1:15:25

wishes for them. Or the corollary to

1:15:27

that is not the actions that I take

1:15:29

or don't take. Now they may

1:15:31

say to you when they're reaching out to

1:15:33

you, Tim, Tim, if you don't do this

1:15:36

thing that I'm asking you to do, then

1:15:38

I will be unhappy. And if

1:15:40

I'm unhappy, I will be

1:15:42

mean to you. I mean, that's essentially

1:15:44

the existential threat. I wish they

1:15:47

would actually just send that email because then

1:15:49

I would say, gotcha, bitch. I have a

1:15:51

blog, shouldn't have sent that email. Which

1:15:55

has actually happened with writers from the New York Times,

1:15:57

believe it or not. Ha

1:15:59

ha ha. up as horrible as they say. So

1:16:01

they're split in their threat. Oh

1:16:04

yeah. And then as soon as they realize what they've done,

1:16:06

they're like, ah, shit. And then they cool

1:16:08

their jets. But yeah. So

1:16:11

here's a little tool that I have come up with

1:16:13

that helps me is I often

1:16:15

think of creating these little fences.

1:16:18

And I often visualize a chain-link fence so that

1:16:20

I can see through it. And

1:16:22

it has a gate in it. And the

1:16:24

gate only opens one way, inward. And I get

1:16:26

to control whether or not the gate opens. And

1:16:29

so then I can see someone on the other

1:16:31

side. And then the phrase

1:16:33

that comes up is love them from afar.

1:16:36

Be kind to them in my heart.

1:16:39

Set clear boundaries. I

1:16:41

have as your friend, as your guide, as

1:16:44

somebody hopefully is standing shoulder to

1:16:46

shoulder with you is sort of in this crazy

1:16:48

journey. I really feel for

1:16:50

all the people who have reached out to you

1:16:52

620,000 times in your inbox and all of that

1:16:54

stuff. And

1:16:58

I feel for you. And I

1:17:00

would advise you to delete every

1:17:02

one of those things. And

1:17:05

to basically love all of those people

1:17:07

who are going to get unanswered from

1:17:10

afar and be kind to them

1:17:12

in your heart. And recognize that

1:17:14

on the whole, you're doing the best

1:17:16

that you can. Because you are.

1:17:19

I wish I could give you like,

1:17:21

here's the tool, you know, like, NVC

1:17:23

nonviolent communications has some brilliant

1:17:26

tools or here's the book

1:17:28

that magically unlocks that. To

1:17:30

me, the challenge is not having the

1:17:32

tool. The challenge is in the meaning

1:17:34

that we put into the situation that

1:17:36

is the hardest thing to come over.

1:17:39

And to recognize that you're okay,

1:17:41

even if you're not necessarily being

1:17:43

at your kindest or at your

1:17:45

best. Because like you, like everybody

1:17:48

else, like me, we all get resources that

1:17:50

are thin at times. My God. And so,

1:17:52

you know, if you've not answered a text

1:17:54

message from me, Tim, or if you've not

1:17:56

answered an email from me, I am never,

1:17:58

ever, ever going to be there. going to think

1:18:00

ill of you. Well I appreciate that. Wish

1:18:03

I could transmit that

1:18:06

composure to all of my 620,000 senders. Let me ask you

1:18:09

a situational question

1:18:15

and this is true in my life

1:18:17

and I'm sure it's true for many

1:18:19

people listening that

1:18:22

I have a handful of

1:18:24

people who are kind of

1:18:27

close to me very much in the same

1:18:29

circles playing at a

1:18:31

high level who tend to

1:18:34

reach out to me only when there is

1:18:36

an ask of some type and there tends

1:18:39

to be some great degree of discomfort associated

1:18:42

with the ask in

1:18:44

so much as perhaps they have two or three

1:18:46

people who are close friends of mine attending an

1:18:48

event of theirs or investing in

1:18:50

blah blah blah whatever might be so

1:18:53

that it is there's a great degree

1:18:56

of discomfort that I feel

1:18:59

in ignoring the email maybe I actually

1:19:01

get texted by one friend and then

1:19:03

the email from this person there

1:19:06

are a few people who are repeat

1:19:08

characters kind of like Newman and Seinfeld and signed

1:19:11

by Shakespeare's fist. I have at least a half

1:19:13

a dozen newmans who are pretty tough to get

1:19:20

rid of and they're not

1:19:22

very good at reading hints

1:19:25

or they deliberately ignore hints that I don't want to

1:19:27

do things that I don't want to respond. Have

1:19:30

you coached people through breaking

1:19:32

up with friends or having

1:19:35

direct conversations with their own

1:19:37

newmans and then maybe the

1:19:39

newman is a co-founder maybe the newman is a someone on

1:19:41

the board of directors maybe fill in the blank for

1:19:46

having a really direct conversation

1:19:48

about this type of dynamic.

1:19:51

Sure can we put aside just

1:19:53

for a moment co-founder and board member

1:19:56

because totally there are power dynamics

1:19:58

there that are different than the

1:20:00

Newman's that you've been talking about. Yeah,

1:20:02

let's leave out co-founder and board member.

1:20:04

I agree that adds a lot of

1:20:06

complexity. Or we can circle back to

1:20:08

it separately. But here's the thing, if

1:20:10

we start with a basic basic basic

1:20:13

basic premise, it goes like this. Am

1:20:15

I a good person? Am I doing the

1:20:17

best that I can? And if I can answer

1:20:19

that question relatively straightforwardly

1:20:22

and honestly, then

1:20:24

I don't have to feel

1:20:26

guilty. Because that's what we're talking about,

1:20:29

right? That's the emotion that gets manipulated. I

1:20:31

don't have to feel guilty saying to somebody,

1:20:33

I don't have the

1:20:35

space to do the thing that you

1:20:37

would like me to do, which might

1:20:39

include maintaining this contact. And there's

1:20:42

an image that I often use, whether

1:20:44

it's with a client or with my

1:20:46

own self. And it's come to me

1:20:48

as I've gotten older, and I'm obsessed

1:20:50

right now with myself being old. And

1:20:54

the images of a bonsai tree, which

1:20:56

over its lifetime, you know, you can see

1:20:58

this one foot tall bonsai tree,

1:21:01

and it could be anywhere from 10 years old

1:21:03

to 300 years old, you have really

1:21:06

no idea. And what

1:21:08

I see is something

1:21:10

that has been carefully pruned into

1:21:13

a thing of beauty. And I think

1:21:15

that that's our opportunity in life. Now,

1:21:17

if we start with the supposition that

1:21:19

we are never enough, that

1:21:21

we are not good enough, and

1:21:23

that we therefore not only, you said

1:21:26

before, become addicted to busyness in order

1:21:28

to make ourselves not feel

1:21:30

the things that we don't want to

1:21:32

feel, remember that? Well, one

1:21:34

of the things that we do is we

1:21:36

maintain unhealthy relationships in order to not feel

1:21:39

the things that we don't want to feel,

1:21:42

even when those unhealthy relationships make us

1:21:44

feel other things we don't want to

1:21:46

feel. Whereas if we start with the

1:21:48

basic premise that we are enough just

1:21:50

as we are, and that

1:21:52

there is no great loss to

1:21:55

you, Tim, if

1:21:58

over time you lose some connection

1:22:00

and you use this term several

1:22:02

times to some high-powered person. Oh

1:22:05

my goodness, this high achieving

1:22:07

person, this high performer person,

1:22:09

there's no real great loss.

1:22:12

Like think of the people that you

1:22:14

have interviewed over the years, the people

1:22:17

that maybe began in some powerful position

1:22:19

and that have gone on to some powerful position.

1:22:22

Oh my God, if I lose that connection that

1:22:24

I once had to them, then somehow

1:22:26

I'm at a loss. Oh,

1:22:28

take a breath. We breathe into

1:22:31

that. The Buddha taught us one

1:22:33

thing. You are

1:22:35

basically good, just as you are,

1:22:38

not because of the connections that you

1:22:40

have maintained. And those

1:22:42

people who love you and care about

1:22:44

you and understand the essence are

1:22:47

going to be fine. Even

1:22:49

if you say, hey,

1:22:51

I'm sorry, I actually can't maintain this connection. May

1:22:53

I ask you a question? Sure.

1:22:56

All right. So I agree

1:22:58

with everything you just said. And what

1:23:01

I'd love to hear you elaborate

1:23:03

on is any

1:23:06

practices or tools that

1:23:10

you use or recommend

1:23:12

people use to

1:23:14

get from intellectually agreeing with what

1:23:16

you just said to

1:23:20

embodying that in some way that

1:23:22

translates to different behavior. Does

1:23:24

that make sense? Because I mean, one of my

1:23:27

favorite quotes is, I guess it's Ted Geisel, but

1:23:29

Dr. Seuss, which is the people who matter don't

1:23:31

mind and the people who mind don't matter. I

1:23:33

mean, I love that quote. I remind myself of

1:23:35

it all the time. Nonetheless,

1:23:39

I do have this guilt that

1:23:41

crops up on occasion that I

1:23:43

recognize as counterproductive. Nonetheless, it crops

1:23:45

up and causes me to behave

1:23:48

in ways that I know are not

1:23:51

necessary nor productive. And

1:23:53

I'm wondering how

1:23:55

you help people to make that leap

1:23:58

from kind of the intellectual,

1:24:00

uh-huh, yep, I get it, to the

1:24:03

other lily pad of behavioral change. Well,

1:24:06

the first thing I would say

1:24:08

is that the practice that you

1:24:10

just described embodying the Ted

1:24:13

Geisel, Dr. Seuss quote, that

1:24:15

is a practice. And

1:24:17

the first thing to do is to remember that

1:24:20

the thing about the word practice is that we

1:24:22

actually never achieve. We're always

1:24:24

moving towards. We're

1:24:26

always going there. But

1:24:29

oftentimes achieving

1:24:31

it permanently sustained persistently, yeah,

1:24:33

that's a tough one. So

1:24:38

in those moments when we fail

1:24:40

to understand and remember that those

1:24:42

of us who, those who love

1:24:45

us won't mind, when

1:24:47

we fail to remember that, it

1:24:49

can be helpful to remember what I was

1:24:51

saying before about I am enough and

1:24:54

I'm doing the best that I can. Whereas

1:24:57

Dr. Seuss once taught me, not

1:24:59

bad considering, not bad

1:25:02

considering how rough you may have had it,

1:25:04

not bad considering how hard your life is

1:25:06

right now. You're okay.

1:25:09

You're okay. And if I can

1:25:11

say that to myself every day in one

1:25:13

form or another, bringing

1:25:16

a kind of mindful attention to the points

1:25:18

when I fail with

1:25:20

a kind of forgiveness to myself,

1:25:22

well, then, wow, okay, that

1:25:25

can be helpful. Do you

1:25:28

use journaling for this? I

1:25:30

know journaling is very important to you and

1:25:32

I want to discuss that as a topic

1:25:34

and there are a million and one ways

1:25:36

to journal. So I'd like to learn more

1:25:38

about how you use journaling, but is

1:25:41

journaling one

1:25:43

of the ways that you remind yourselves

1:25:45

of these things? Yes. Yes.

1:25:49

And if so, what does it look like? Down to

1:25:51

the mundane details. Do you write down I am enough

1:25:53

as a prompt and then write for two paragraphs on

1:25:55

why that is the case or how

1:25:57

does one implement this? for

1:26:00

context, I have been journaling consistently since I

1:26:02

was about 13 years old, daily.

1:26:06

And I'm 55. So

1:26:08

a hell of a lot of journals. And

1:26:11

again, to be consistent, and I think you do

1:26:13

the same thing, I handwrite. I do,

1:26:16

yeah. And what may be

1:26:18

unusual is I never go back and

1:26:20

reread because it's not

1:26:22

about figuring shit out. It's

1:26:25

about the experience. And so

1:26:27

my general prompt, the

1:26:29

thing I almost always start

1:26:31

with is, right now

1:26:33

I'm failing. And I simply bring

1:26:35

my attention to it. And

1:26:37

so I might be feeling to talk

1:26:40

about this very specific situation, guilt.

1:26:43

So for example, and I'll use

1:26:45

this sort of mindful attention, if I were to

1:26:48

journal about our conversation, one of the things I

1:26:50

might journal is about the guilt that I have

1:26:52

felt over the years as to

1:26:54

whether or not I was reaching

1:26:56

out to you when you might be in

1:26:58

trouble, or if I was

1:27:00

one of those folks who put

1:27:03

you in an uncomfortable situation. And

1:27:05

I bring that up, not to elicit

1:27:07

a response from you, but as an

1:27:09

example of an exploration of the guilty

1:27:11

feelings that I might have, where

1:27:14

are they coming from? What are they doing? Was I

1:27:16

kind, that sort of thing. And

1:27:18

then I blow a kiss to myself.

1:27:23

Buddy boy, easy. This

1:27:25

is all a journaling exercise. I'm

1:27:27

just talking it out. And I

1:27:29

remember something that's really important about

1:27:32

that word guilt. Guilt is

1:27:34

self focused. Remorse is

1:27:37

about the other. Remorse is,

1:27:40

oh, I hurt someone's feelings and I

1:27:42

would like to not be hurtful. So

1:27:45

I'm going to try not to be hurtful. Guilt

1:27:47

is, oh my God, I can't

1:27:50

believe I'm ruminating, ruminating, ruminating, ruminating.

1:27:52

I find myself journaling in a

1:27:54

ruminating kind of way. I

1:27:57

try to bring attention to that. And

1:27:59

that's the moment when Or I say, easy

1:28:01

boy, easy, you're

1:28:03

a good man. Because sometimes

1:28:06

fails to live up to your aspirations. That's

1:28:09

it, that's simple. I

1:28:12

also promised I would return to the crow. This

1:28:15

might be a good place. Now

1:28:19

I'm gonna get the pronunciation wrong.

1:28:22

Mary, help me with the last name.

1:28:24

P-O-N, Ponset, Poet.

1:28:27

Yeah, and it's Marie,

1:28:29

Marie Ponset. Marie, always a tricky

1:28:31

one. All right, so Marie. Ponset.

1:28:34

Ponset. And she's still with

1:28:36

us, thank God. And the crow, what does she

1:28:38

describe in terms of the crow? That might fit,

1:28:41

might not, but I wanna make sure I fulfill

1:28:43

my promise to return to the crow. Oh, I

1:28:45

think it does fit, I think it does fit.

1:28:47

So Marie was one

1:28:49

of my professors in college. She taught

1:28:51

poetry, but I also took

1:28:54

a particular track in teaching, writing, and

1:28:56

so she was also my mentor. And

1:28:59

she used to talk all the time about the crow

1:29:01

who sits on your shoulder telling you what a piece

1:29:03

of shit you are. Ah, ah,

1:29:06

that's a piece of shit. I can't believe you wrote that.

1:29:08

You know, it's like I hear that voice. And

1:29:10

it sits on your shoulder and it tells you

1:29:13

all the things that you have done wrong and

1:29:15

all the things that is happening. And

1:29:18

oftentimes in my journal,

1:29:20

sometimes I'll take a second pen so that

1:29:23

there are two different colors, I

1:29:25

will allow the crow to speak. This

1:29:28

is really important. This

1:29:30

isn't a jiu-jitsu move because

1:29:34

the mistake I think a lot of people make is

1:29:36

they try to throw rocks at the crow and

1:29:39

shut the crow up. And that

1:29:42

crow is a really

1:29:44

interesting voice. That crow tells us

1:29:46

all the things that we are doing wrong and

1:29:49

the ways in which we are not enough. And

1:29:51

that's the linkage back to what we were just

1:29:53

talking about. This notion that

1:29:56

we are not enough just by ourselves,

1:29:58

that's the fuel by ourself. which the crow is there.

1:30:01

Now this is the move to make. The

1:30:04

crow's mission is

1:30:07

to preserve your ability to be loved, to

1:30:09

feel safe, and that you belong.

1:30:12

What? It makes you feel like

1:30:14

shit though. Yes, it makes you feel like shit.

1:30:17

But its motivation is for you not to

1:30:19

feel ashamed. And so the

1:30:22

crow is doing you a favor.

1:30:24

The crow is trying to keep

1:30:26

you safe. The problem is

1:30:28

the crow is so attentive and

1:30:31

so vigilant that it's a little

1:30:33

too active. And so what

1:30:35

we want to say at that moment is, thanks a

1:30:37

lot buddy, I really appreciate

1:30:39

it. But all those people who

1:30:42

might be angry with me because

1:30:44

I didn't respond to them or do the thing

1:30:47

they wanted me to do, they actually don't really

1:30:49

see me. And if they don't see me, they

1:30:51

don't know that I'm doing the best that I

1:30:53

can. So I'll blow them a kiss, I'll put

1:30:55

them on the other side of that chain-laying fence,

1:30:58

and I'll love them from afar. This

1:31:00

is really important. And by this, I mean

1:31:02

everything that we've been talking about pretty much

1:31:04

since the get-go. But especially I'm referring

1:31:07

to the journaling and creating

1:31:10

an outlet for the

1:31:12

crow or the monkey mind or what

1:31:14

Tim Urban of Wait But Why would

1:31:17

call the mammoth. And I highly recommend

1:31:19

that everybody check out an article he

1:31:21

wrote called Taming the Mammoth, which is

1:31:23

on this subject, that if

1:31:26

you hate that part of yourself and

1:31:28

try to contain it, at

1:31:31

least in my experience, that does nothing

1:31:33

but exacerbate,

1:31:35

does nothing but worsen the

1:31:38

problem. But along the lines of say

1:31:40

morning pages, you know, Julia Cameron and

1:31:42

so on, writing freehand in the morning

1:31:45

and providing that

1:31:48

monkey mind an opportunity to fix itself on paper,

1:31:50

at least for me, gives me a tremendous

1:31:54

amount of increased levity

1:31:57

during the day. It removed a huge

1:31:59

burden. Do you tend

1:32:01

to journal first thing upon waking up?

1:32:03

Could you walk us through when

1:32:06

you're at your best? When do you

1:32:08

wake up? What does your first kind of 60 to

1:32:10

90 minutes look like over two hours, whatever you choose?

1:32:13

It's two hours and when I'm at my

1:32:15

best, I wake, I clean

1:32:17

up, so I shower and stuff like that

1:32:19

and I have caffeine because you do not

1:32:21

want to be around me without caffeine. What

1:32:23

time do you wake up generally? Between five

1:32:26

and six. Both

1:32:28

without fail, usually without

1:32:30

an alarm clock. So I'm really awful

1:32:32

around nine o'clock at night. I'm a

1:32:34

very boring person. I do not look

1:32:36

at my phone. Let me say

1:32:38

that again. I do not look at my

1:32:40

phone. I do not look at my

1:32:42

phone because it's just

1:32:45

too painful and with a

1:32:47

cup of coffee, not coffee

1:32:49

as I say from Brooklyn. And

1:32:53

then I journal usually for an

1:32:55

hour and then I sit in meditation

1:32:57

usually for a half hour, sometimes

1:32:59

45 minutes. It

1:33:02

sort of depends on how the day has gone and

1:33:05

what's going on. But the entire

1:33:07

period feels like one quiet meditative

1:33:09

period. So that's me at my

1:33:11

best. The journaling for

1:33:13

an hour, I want to dig into that a

1:33:15

bit because I think it's such a powerful tool

1:33:19

and I'd like to hear

1:33:22

more about how that hour is

1:33:24

spent. So I'm looking at a

1:33:26

page in the

1:33:29

new book appropriately named reboot

1:33:32

and you have in this

1:33:35

book different journaling invitations. So

1:33:38

you might have, let's give a few examples. In what

1:33:40

ways do I deplete myself and run myself into the

1:33:42

ground? Where am I running from and where

1:33:44

to? Why have I allowed

1:33:46

myself to be so exhausted? You

1:33:48

mentioned earlier that you often

1:33:51

start the journaling with right now I'm

1:33:53

feeling dot dot dot. Are there other

1:33:55

prompts that you personally tend to use

1:33:57

more than others? I

1:34:00

never say that I would use the

1:34:02

prompts like, I'm gonna use

1:34:04

the same prompt every time. The

1:34:06

one thing that I do consistently is, right

1:34:08

now I'm feeling. And then,

1:34:11

generally speaking, I might review the past

1:34:13

24 hours, almost in

1:34:15

a diary kind of fashion. So

1:34:17

yesterday I woke up and then da da da da da.

1:34:20

I also don't worry about explaining people, so I

1:34:22

might say, and then I met with Mary Jane,

1:34:24

and I don't have to explain who Mary Jane

1:34:27

is, because who cares? I'm never gonna read it

1:34:29

again, and nobody is ever gonna read it. I

1:34:31

get rid of all that monkey mind bullshit

1:34:33

chatter, right? And I just

1:34:36

go right into it. And I presume

1:34:38

that the journal knows all, sees all,

1:34:40

has been there with me all along.

1:34:43

That's an important point. Secondarily,

1:34:46

I will ask myself

1:34:48

many questions like, how

1:34:50

long have I felt this way? Which

1:34:53

will then bring me back to

1:34:55

some early memories, and

1:34:58

I will start to be able to elucidate

1:35:00

the patterns of my life. And

1:35:03

that's really important, because it's the

1:35:05

patterns that actually point out where

1:35:07

we have some struggles. Can

1:35:10

I circle back to a point that you

1:35:12

were making before about accepting the totality of

1:35:14

what's going on? Because the journaling can help

1:35:16

me in that. The journal can

1:35:19

help one in that. So I

1:35:21

mentioned before about maybe utilizing

1:35:23

different pens to speak for

1:35:25

the different parts of ourselves. Before

1:35:28

I even go further, let me make

1:35:30

this observation. I think it's super helpful

1:35:33

for you, Tim, to

1:35:35

speak openly about the ways in which

1:35:37

there are different parts of you. For

1:35:40

those of us who are mildly

1:35:42

curious about this space, that's an

1:35:44

obvious fact. But there's still

1:35:46

very much a point of view in the

1:35:48

world that there's just one mind,

1:35:51

that there's just one point of view. And

1:35:54

all those other voices, we pretend

1:35:56

aren't there. They're not part of ourselves. And

1:35:59

you were absolutely... right, when those

1:36:01

voices are not given airtime,

1:36:04

they get really pissed off, really,

1:36:07

really angry. And the

1:36:09

energy that they hold is really

1:36:11

important. And so if we

1:36:13

go back to journaling for a moment,

1:36:15

by giving voice to those other voices,

1:36:18

by giving airtime to those other voices,

1:36:20

we get to lay out, in fact,

1:36:23

all the conflicts that exist within us.

1:36:26

In Buddhism, we're taught that there

1:36:28

are seven layers of consciousness. Seven

1:36:31

is an observer observing, observing, observing, observing.

1:36:33

There are all these layers of what's

1:36:35

going on, right? And

1:36:38

by taking the time in a

1:36:40

good journaling session, you can allow, you

1:36:42

don't even have to swap all these

1:36:44

pens, you can allow dialogue, you

1:36:47

can allow conflict, you can

1:36:49

allow argument. And

1:36:51

it's in that expression,

1:36:54

that's a manifestation of that full

1:36:56

acceptance that you were talking about before.

1:36:59

Oh, wait, I can

1:37:01

contain multitudes. Isn't that what Whitman

1:37:03

said? Do I contradict

1:37:05

myself? I do. I am

1:37:07

large. I contain multitudes. Amen.

1:37:11

Whether we are aware of it or not, we all do. A book

1:37:14

that helped me a lot with this, and

1:37:17

I found so much value in the first, I want

1:37:19

to say 50 to 100 pages that I wanted to

1:37:22

get to work, immediately. I

1:37:24

was like, okay, that's plenty of grist

1:37:26

for the mill, let me get started,

1:37:28

was Radical Acceptance by Tara Brock. Oh,

1:37:30

God, what a great book. Yeah, and

1:37:32

I think the title is

1:37:35

fairly sterile or milk

1:37:37

toast, but the book is so

1:37:40

good. And in my particular

1:37:42

case, my default emotional

1:37:44

home, in a way, was

1:37:46

anger. And the way I dealt with that

1:37:49

was by fighting anger, if that

1:37:52

makes sense, and trying to cage

1:37:54

and contain it. And

1:37:56

Radical Acceptance offered me

1:37:58

an entirely different way of relating

1:38:01

to that, which I found extremely valuable.

1:38:04

Are there any other tools, meditations,

1:38:07

books, anything at

1:38:09

all that might be

1:38:12

helpful in assisting people

1:38:15

to accept or

1:38:17

reconcile with different parts of

1:38:20

themselves, or at the very least recognize different

1:38:22

things? You know how before you were saying,

1:38:24

like, you know, you were taking a breath

1:38:26

because you wanted to jump in, I'm having

1:38:28

all those same feelings? Yeah, so

1:38:30

much here. First of all, shout out to

1:38:32

Tara Brock for radical acceptance. What a brilliant

1:38:35

book and what a gift she is as

1:38:37

a teacher. Yes, yes, yes,

1:38:39

on the acceptance. You know,

1:38:41

you talked about anger being your default mechanism.

1:38:44

For me, growing up with the violence that I

1:38:47

experienced as a kid, rage

1:38:50

was a major part of my

1:38:52

childhood. But the challenge

1:38:54

that I experienced was that anger,

1:38:56

rage, was so dangerous that I

1:38:58

actually turned it into anxiety all

1:39:00

the time. And so actually, you can't see

1:39:03

it because the video is off, but on

1:39:05

my desk are two little action figures. One

1:39:07

is Hulk and the other is Thor.

1:39:11

And one part of me that

1:39:13

I learned to accept was

1:39:15

the Hulk. Because the Hulk,

1:39:17

when I was a kid, I

1:39:20

remember this one time, I have a

1:39:22

younger brother named John and

1:39:24

in my mind's eye, he's still 10 years old even though he's

1:39:26

in his 50s. So hey, John.

1:39:29

Anyway, when I was a kid, we lived

1:39:31

in a part of Brooklyn where we're called

1:39:34

Bensonhurst and we lived in the second floor

1:39:36

of a two-family house. And I

1:39:38

remember looking out the window and one day this

1:39:40

kid was throwing rocks over the fence at my

1:39:42

brother John. And I

1:39:45

went ballistic. And I ran downstairs

1:39:47

and I grabbed this kid and I pulled him

1:39:49

over the fence and I threw him on the

1:39:51

floor and I pounded the crap out of his

1:39:53

face. Because here's the thing,

1:39:55

you do not fuck with my people. You

1:39:58

do not fuck with Hulk. people. The

1:40:01

problem was that Hulk

1:40:03

was often dangerous and would often

1:40:05

lead to something negative happening to

1:40:07

me. So I would shut him up

1:40:10

and I'd pretend that he's not there and

1:40:13

he would show up in all sorts of ways

1:40:15

like really cleverly dissecting

1:40:17

somebody's argument and being really

1:40:19

wordy and verbose and shutting

1:40:22

people down and all these

1:40:24

awful behaviors. And

1:40:26

what I had to do was radically

1:40:29

accept that that

1:40:31

guy, that big green guy

1:40:33

exists in me for one

1:40:36

reason only, to keep myself and

1:40:38

those who love me safe. And

1:40:41

by the loving Hulk, I transformed

1:40:44

him into Thor who's

1:40:46

just as strong, just as powerful,

1:40:49

less likely to be out of control

1:40:51