0:00

March 18, 1991, Azalea, Oregon. Two-year-old

0:06

Tommy Gibson goes missing from the front

0:08

yard of his rural home. Tommy's

0:11

father, Larry Gibson, claims his son vanished

0:14

while he was out jogging and that

0:16

his daughter witnessed Tommy get abducted by

0:18

an unidentified couple driving a pickup truck.

0:22

However, investigators discover a number

0:24

of suspicious discrepancies which make

0:26

them believe that Larry caused

0:29

Tommy's death and covered

0:31

up the crime by disposing of his body.

0:34

Larry is eventually convicted of second-degree

0:36

manslaughter and serves nearly three years

0:38

in prison. But he

0:41

continually maintains his innocence, and

0:44

no trace of Tommy is ever found.

0:48

After that, the

0:50

trail went cold. Hello,

1:28

everyone, and welcome to our latest episode of

1:30

The Trail Went Cold. I'm

1:32

your host, Robin Warder. And today, we're

1:35

going to be exploring a missing children's

1:37

case, the 1991 disappearance of

1:40

two-year-old Tommy Gibson. That

1:43

voice you just heard narrating our intro was

1:45

Sam Pant, the latest winner of

1:47

our most recent Trail Went Cold listener

1:49

voiceover contest. So thank you very much,

1:51

Sam. This is a

1:53

recurring contest which we've been holding for over

1:55

six years now. So if you'd like to

1:58

enter and have an already done so, I will. be

2:00

providing instructions near the end of this episode.

2:03

Anyway, the disappearance of Tommy Gibson

2:05

is a very controversial story which

2:07

was featured on Unsolved Mysteries, but

2:10

unfortunately, it is not currently available for

2:12

viewing on the official Film Rise channel

2:15

on Amazon Prime or YouTube. This

2:18

may have something to do with the fact that

2:20

the case is technically considered to be solved, but

2:23

since the victim has still not been

2:25

found, and the alleged perpetrator received a

2:27

very light sentence and has never admitted

2:29

guilt, there's always been a

2:31

lot of unanswered questions about the outcome. Tommy

2:34

Gibson was the son of a sheriff's

2:36

deputy named Larry Gibson, and he supposedly

2:39

vanished from the front yard of his

2:41

rural home, but a search for him

2:43

turned up nothing, and investigators eventually became

2:45

suspicious of Larry. While

2:47

Larry maintained that Tommy was abducted by

2:50

an outside party, there were some

2:52

holes in his alibi, and he changed

2:54

certain details of his story, so

2:56

investigators began to believe that Larry may

2:58

have accidentally killed his son and disposed

3:00

of his body. Larry

3:03

was eventually charged with Tommy's murder

3:05

and found guilty at trial, with

3:07

the primary evidence against him being the

3:09

testimony of his daughter, who said

3:11

that she witnessed her father beat Tommy to death

3:13

in a fit of rage. However,

3:16

given that she was only four years old at the

3:18

time, Larry's defense team argued

3:20

that her account was not reliable, and

3:22

the jury ultimately decided to convict him

3:25

on the lesser charge of second-degree manslaughter,

3:28

which meant that he only had to serve

3:30

less than three years behind bars before he

3:32

was released. To this day,

3:34

Larry has never stopped maintaining his innocence,

3:36

and Tommy is still a missing person,

3:39

and regardless of how you view the case, I

3:42

think we can all agree that this

3:44

was a very unsatisfying outcome for everyone

3:46

involved. So on this episode,

3:48

we're going to look at both sides of the

3:50

story and try to figure out what actually happened.

3:53

However, before we get started, just a quick

3:55

reminder that The Trail Went Cold is a

3:57

weekly podcast, which is currently available for download.

4:00

on several platforms including Apple

4:02

Podcasts and Spotify. So

4:04

if you like this podcast be sure to subscribe to

4:06

it and please leave us a rating

4:09

or review on any of those sites to help

4:11

spread the word. The trail

4:13

went cold is on Patreon so if

4:15

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4:17

support the show please visit our page

4:19

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4:23

can garner access to exclusive

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4:28

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page currently has around 70 exclusive

4:34

bonus episodes in our archives which are

4:37

not available on our regular feed. So

4:40

with all that out of the way let

4:42

us now explore the disappearance of Tommy Gibson.

5:00

Our

5:05

story begins in 1991 in Azalea,

5:07

Oregon an unincorporated community located

5:09

in Douglas County near Interstate 5.

5:13

Our victim is 32 month old Thomas Dean

5:15

Gibson who goes by the name Tommy. Tommy

5:18

lives with his parents Larry and Judy

5:20

Gibson as well as his older four-year-old

5:23

sister Karen in a mobile home in

5:25

a rural wooded area known as Cow

5:27

Creek Valley which is surrounded by

5:29

hills and farmland. The Givsons

5:31

originally hail from Montana and relocated

5:33

to Oregon just over three years

5:35

earlier shortly before Tommy was born.

5:38

Larry works as a deputy for the Douglas

5:40

County Sheriff's Office in the town of Glendale

5:42

10 miles away and his half-brother

5:45

Michael also happens to be staying at his

5:47

residence at this point. At

5:49

around 11 30 a.m. on the morning of March

5:51

the 18th Larry left his home to

5:54

go jogging and claimed that he saw

5:56

Tommy playing in the front yard by the porch

5:58

and told him to stay there until... his sister

6:00

came out to play with him. Larry

6:02

then continued his jog on a private dirt road

6:04

which went up into the mountains and

6:07

said that he covered a distance of

6:09

approximately two and a half miles before

6:11

he returned forty-seven minutes later. However,

6:14

Judy then informed Larry that she went

6:16

outside about ten minutes after he originally

6:18

left and discovered that Tommy was gone.

6:21

She initially assumed that Larry might have taken

6:23

Tommy with him when he went jogging, but

6:25

this was not the case, so Larry, Judy

6:27

and Michael attempted to search for him. When

6:30

they failed to find Tommy, Larry contacted

6:33

the Douglas County Sheriff's Office in order

6:35

to report his son missing. A

6:38

massive search effort would soon be launched

6:40

involving over two hundred people, including members

6:42

of law enforcement and volunteers, who

6:45

used tracking dogs and a US

6:47

Air Force Reserve helicopter to comb

6:49

through Cow Creek Valley, but

6:51

after searching for three days, they failed to

6:53

find any trace of Tommy. A

6:56

group of volunteers was formed called the

6:59

Find Tommy Gibson Committee, who used

7:01

donations in order to print out and distribute

7:03

thousands of missing persons flyers for the boy.

7:05

The local authorities

7:07

began to doubt that Tommy simply wandered

7:09

off into the woods and feared that

7:11

he may have been abducted, so

7:14

the Oregon State Police and the FBI

7:16

were brought in to assist them with

7:18

the investigation. On May

7:20

the 3rd, six weeks after Tommy

7:22

vanished, the Douglas County Sheriff's

7:24

Office announced that after meeting with the

7:26

Oregon State Police, they had

7:28

made the decision to place Larry on administrative

7:30

leave and he was indefinitely

7:32

suspended with pay. They

7:35

said this was done in order to avoid

7:37

a potential conflict of interest with the investigation

7:39

and give Larry a chance to recover from

7:42

the stress of losing Tommy. Well

7:45

three weeks later, on May the 23rd, the

7:48

case took a surprising turn when the Oregon

7:50

State Police filed a 31 page

7:52

affidavit in Douglas County Circuit Court

7:55

Outlining a number of reasons why they

7:57

now considered Larry to be the prime

7:59

suspect. In his sons disappearance. A

8:02

red quote. The. Likelihood of Tommy

8:04

Gibson be alive and meeting any fate

8:06

other than death at the hands of

8:09

Larry Gibson is extremely small and quote.

8:12

This. Allowed the police to obtain a

8:14

warrant to perform a search of the

8:17

Gibson residents and they seized a number

8:19

of items including some guns, telephone records,

8:21

and a spent forty five caliber sell

8:23

found inside a dresser, audrey the pair

8:26

of children's underwear. He. Turned

8:28

out that Larry did a number of things

8:30

to raise suspicion on the day Tommy went

8:32

missing. He. Had been

8:34

scheduled. Report for duty at the Sheriff's

8:36

Office in Glendale at two pm. Or.

8:39

Was told by a supervisor not to come into

8:41

work so he could assist in the search for

8:43

a son. In. Spite of

8:45

is Larry decided to take a shower

8:47

and put on his police uniform. As

8:50

he said that he did not believe the

8:52

situation with that series of the time and

8:54

figure that Tommy would be found relatively quickly.

8:57

When. Nightfall hit. Some. Of the

9:00

searchers, build a campfire on the Gibson's

9:02

property. Into. Larry approach them and advise

9:04

them to go home because it was cold

9:06

and it was about to start snowing. Needless,

9:09

To say, they found it odd that

9:11

Larry did not seem overly concerned about

9:13

the possibility that Tommy might be out

9:15

there alone in the cold weather. When.

9:18

Larry was interviewed by the F B I

9:21

several days later. He initially told him that

9:23

he never left his property on the day

9:25

Tommy disappeared. However,

9:27

investigator soon performed a search of Larry's

9:29

patrol car which have been parked at

9:31

the property that day. And will

9:33

they failed to find any evidence they

9:36

noticed that the odometer had registered seven

9:38

miles, which could not be account? With.

9:41

The Oregon State Police confronted Larry

9:43

with this information. He admitted

9:45

that shortly after putting on his uniform.

9:48

He. Did leave his property in the patrol

9:50

car while the search effort was taking place.

9:53

He. said he was worried that tommy may have

9:55

been abducted so he drove to and a

9:57

half miles to the southbound rest area interstate

10:00

to see if he might be there. When

10:02

he failed to find Tommy, he also

10:04

checked out the northbound rest area in

10:06

that vicinity, but once again came up

10:08

empty. He estimated that

10:11

he spent between 10 to 15 minutes

10:13

searching each rest area before returning home.

10:16

However, this seemed to contradict a story that

10:19

Judy had shared with investigators as she said

10:21

that Larry told her he drove

10:23

his patrol car into Glendale that afternoon

10:25

in order to check on his own

10:27

private car. For her

10:29

part, Judy denied ever having said this

10:31

and claimed that the Oregon State Police

10:33

had twisted her words around. Shortly

10:36

after Tommy went missing, Larry

10:39

had agreed to take a polygraph test and

10:41

while he technically wound up passing, the

10:43

results still indicated that he may have known more

10:46

than he was letting on. Judy

10:48

also took a polygraph and got the same

10:50

results, as investigators wondered if

10:52

she may have secretly suspected her husband

10:55

but would not say so during the

10:57

test. Investigators

10:59

also had issues with Larry's story

11:01

about having gone jogging during the time

11:03

period when Tommy went missing, as

11:06

he claimed that he covered about 2.5 miles and

11:08

was gone from his home for 47 minutes, but

11:12

when they retraced the route that Larry said he

11:14

took, they determined that it was actually 1 mile,

11:16

so it only should have taken him about 18

11:19

to 20 minutes to jog this distance

11:21

back and forth between his home. A

11:24

neighbor of the Gibson family named Jennifer Klein

11:27

also told police that sometime after 11.30 am

11:30

on the morning of Tommy's disappearance, she

11:32

recalled hearing a gunshot and

11:34

a short time later, she noticed her cat was

11:37

missing. While searching for it

11:39

the following day, Jennifer spoke with

11:41

Larry who told her that he

11:43

feared that he had shot the animal after

11:45

mistakenly believing it was a stray cat. Well

11:48

sure enough, Jennifer soon found her dead

11:50

cat and it was buried on her

11:52

property, but two months later, investigators

11:54

felt compelled to pay her a visit in

11:57

order to dig up the cat's body. After

12:00

performing a forensic examination, they discovered that the

12:03

cat was shot through the heart and lungs,

12:05

though the bullet had passed right through its

12:07

body and could not be found. When

12:10

questioned about this, Larry claimed that

12:12

when he went jogging on the morning of

12:14

Tommy's disappearance, he was carrying

12:16

a .45 automatic handgun in his

12:18

shoulder holster, which he often had

12:21

with him whenever he left the property. Larry

12:24

said that shortly after he left his house,

12:26

he was about to cross over a fence

12:28

in his yard when he noticed a cat

12:30

wandering nearby. According to

12:32

Larry, he and his neighbors had spent

12:35

the past several weeks dealing with stray

12:37

feral cats on their properties, and

12:39

even though he had attempted to take some of these

12:41

cats to the Humane Society, he was told

12:43

they had no room for them. Larry

12:46

decided that the only solution was to

12:48

shoot the cats, so he pulled out

12:50

his .45 and fired a shot at

12:52

this particular cat. Since

12:54

he claimed that he last saw the cat running

12:56

through some weeds down a hill, Larry initially

12:58

assumed that his shot had missed, but

13:01

when he realized that Jennifer Klein was searching

13:03

for her own cat the following day, he

13:05

realized he had probably killed it. Larry

13:08

once again gave inconsistent statements about

13:11

the situation, as he initially

13:13

told investigators that he picked up the shell

13:15

casing which was ejected from his handgun when

13:17

he fired the shot at the cat, but

13:20

then later told a different investigator that he

13:22

was unable to find the casing. The

13:26

shooting of the cat caused the Oregon

13:28

State Police to formulate a theory about

13:30

how Larry may have caused Tommy's disappearance.

13:34

They speculated that when Larry fired the shot,

13:36

the bullet may have passed through the cat's

13:38

body and accidentally struck Tommy in the distance

13:40

while he was playing in the front yard.

13:43

Larry may not have realized this until after

13:46

he returned home from his jog, but

13:48

after discovering Tommy's body, he panicked and

13:50

started cleaning up the scene. He

13:53

then proceeded to hide Tommy inside the

13:55

trunk of his patrol car before calling the

13:58

authorities to report his son missing. At

14:01

his earliest opportunity, Larry then

14:03

drove the patrol car off the property

14:05

and disposed of Tommy's body at a

14:07

nearby location. However,

14:09

Judy's account of that morning seemed to

14:12

contradict this scenario, as she claimed

14:14

she recalled hearing the sound of her husband

14:16

firing his gun, but then also

14:18

heard Tommy playing on the front porch

14:20

seconds later, which went against the

14:22

idea of him being hit by a stray bullet.

14:25

Regardless, detectives from the Oregon State

14:27

Police decided to confront Larry with

14:30

their suspicions and present this theory

14:32

to him. Larry

14:34

then provided this odd response, quote,

14:37

"...it could have happened that way, and it's

14:39

possible it's the only thing that makes sense."

14:41

End quote. He also made another

14:43

odd statement about how his half-brother Michael

14:46

could have found Tommy's body while he

14:48

was out jogging and then moved it

14:50

without his knowledge. However,

14:52

Larry maintained that he was only

14:54

speaking hypothetically when he made these

14:56

statements and denied the allegations

14:59

that he accidentally shot Tommy and

15:01

that he or anyone else from his

15:03

family was responsible for the boy's disappearance.

15:07

Even though he was publicly named as a

15:09

potential suspect, Larry returned to active

15:11

duty with the Douglas County Sheriff's Office in

15:14

late June, though he would be assigned to

15:16

their office in the town of Roseburg rather

15:18

than Glendale. Larry

15:20

also spent the next few months working as a

15:22

records clerk before he finally returned to

15:24

patrol duty. This

15:27

case would receive national exposure when it

15:29

was featured on an episode of Unsolved

15:31

Mysteries which aired on October 23rd

15:34

of that year, only seven months after

15:36

Tommy went missing. Larry

15:38

was the one who reportedly contacted the show

15:40

and asked him to feature his son's story, and

15:43

during his interview, he staunchly maintained

15:45

his innocence and Judy supported him.

15:49

While the Unsolved Mysteries segment outlined the

15:51

theory in which Tommy was accidentally shot,

15:54

they also presented an alternate scenario in which

15:56

he could have been abducted. missing,

16:00

investigators were approached by Jeanette Klein,

16:03

who happened to be the mother-in-law of Jennifer

16:05

Klein, the neighbor whose cat was shot. Jeanette

16:09

claimed that on the morning of Tommy's

16:11

disappearance, she drove down to the end

16:13

of her driveway and saw an older

16:15

model, gold or tan-colored pickup truck pass

16:17

by on Azalea Glen Road. After

16:20

Jeanette turned right, she tailed the truck

16:22

for a short distance and noticed the

16:24

silhouettes of two figures inside the cab.

16:27

She also said that the most distinctive feature of the

16:30

truck is that its license plate was in the

16:32

back window rather than on the rear bumper. The

16:35

truck soon turned right and headed down the

16:37

lengthy driveway which led to the Gibson residence

16:39

and while she didn't think much of it

16:41

at the time, Jeanette eventually came

16:43

to believe that the truck might have had

16:45

some sort of connection to Tommy's disappearance. However,

16:49

investigators do not seem to put much

16:51

stock into Jeanette's story as she

16:53

never mentioned the truck during her initial interview

16:55

with the FBI, so they wondered

16:57

if she might have misremembered what she saw

16:59

when she reported the truck a few weeks

17:01

later. Well, three months after Tommy went missing,

17:04

Larry contacted the authorities and said

17:06

that his daughter Karen had informed

17:08

him that she had witnessed Tommy get

17:10

abducted from their front yard by

17:12

an unidentified couple. According

17:15

to Larry, Karen had been looking

17:17

for a shoe inside her bedroom closet that

17:19

morning when she looked out the window and

17:22

saw what she described as a quote-unquote

17:24

ugly yellow pickup truck pulling into the

17:26

carport. Karen also said that

17:28

the truck's license plate was attached to the

17:31

back window, so it seemed to

17:33

match the description of the truck Jeanette had seen.

17:36

Karen then saw what she described as a

17:38

dark-haired white male with a beard and

17:40

scruffy clothes and a white woman with

17:42

long blonde hair and a braid or

17:44

a ponytail exiting the truck. The

17:47

couple proceeded to abduct Tommy from the front yard

17:49

and put him in their truck before they drove

17:51

away from the scene. Karen

17:54

was apparently so frightened by what she saw that

17:56

she blocked it from her memory for the next

17:59

few months And while Judy never

18:01

personally witnessed anything, she said

18:03

she did recall hearing what sounded like a

18:05

vehicle idling near the residence during this time

18:07

period. But much

18:10

like with Jeanette Klein, investigators did not

18:12

put much credence into Karen's story since

18:14

she had previously been interviewed three times

18:16

and denied seeing anything on the day

18:18

her brother went missing. The

18:21

Oregon State Police suspected that when Larry

18:23

learned the details about Jeanette's sighting of

18:25

the truck, he fed them

18:27

to Karen and then coached her into

18:29

sharing a false abduction story in order

18:31

to take suspicion off himself. It's

18:35

also worth noting that the Unsolved Mystery

18:37

segment concluded with Robert Stack holding up

18:40

an anonymous letter which had been sent

18:42

to the authorities about a month after

18:44

Tommy's disappearance. It was signed,

18:46

Spot in the Road, and while the

18:48

letter's contents were kept secret, investigators

18:51

believed that the author had important information

18:53

about the case and sent

18:55

out a public plea in which they guaranteed

18:57

this person's safety if they came forward. While

19:00

the Unsolved Mysteries episode did bring in some

19:02

new tips, none of them had

19:05

much concrete information to leave the case

19:07

any closer to a resolution. In

19:10

January of 1992, Larry decided

19:12

to formally resign from the Douglas

19:14

County Sheriff's Office as Larry

19:16

said that the stress of the whole situation

19:18

was forcing his family out of Oregon, so

19:21

they were going to return to their native Montana.

19:24

By this point, Judy had become pregnant

19:27

again and in April, she gave

19:29

birth to a daughter named Lisa. The

19:31

following year, the Gibsons had a

19:33

third daughter named Christina. In

19:36

June of 1993, Tommy's story

19:39

received additional publicity when

19:41

the band Soul Asylum released a music

19:43

video for their hit song, Runaway Train.

19:47

The video contained images of a number

19:49

of missing children which had been provided

19:51

by the National Center for Missing and

19:53

Exploited Children. The

19:55

final image put on display at the end of

19:57

the video was that of Tommy Gibson, who youngest

20:00

of the featured kids. Well

20:02

by the time 1994 rolled around,

20:04

Judy decided to separate from Larry by

20:06

packing up her car and leaving the

20:09

state with her daughters. She

20:11

would later claim that the breaking point

20:13

in the relationship was when they got

20:15

into a heated argument where Larry started

20:18

blaming Judy for Tommy's disappearance and accused

20:20

her of not watching him closely enough.

20:24

Judy and the kids travelled to the

20:26

town of Persia, Iowa in order to

20:28

stay with Larry's half sister Debbie Calick

20:30

while Larry remained in Montana and relocated

20:32

to the town of Townsend where he

20:34

moved in with his grandmother and found

20:36

work as an insurance salesman. Well

20:39

on April the 14th, he was announced that

20:41

Larry had been arrested in Townsend after

20:43

an Oregon grand jury formally indicted

20:45

him on the charges of intentional

20:47

murder and murder by abuse. Even

20:51

though Tommy had still not been

20:53

found, investigators built a case against

20:55

Larry after his daughter Karen changed

20:57

her original story about having seen

20:59

Tommy get abducted by an unidentified

21:01

couple. According

21:04

to Julie, only 11 days after she

21:06

and her children moved in with Debbie

21:08

Calick, Karen suddenly shared a

21:10

news story about having looked out her

21:12

bedroom window and seeing her father get

21:14

angry at her brother and physically abuse

21:16

him. She said that

21:18

Larry pushed Tommy and hit him across the

21:20

cheek while holding his hands behind his back

21:23

and he then proceeded to hit the boy three

21:25

more times before he went limp and fell to

21:27

the ground. Larry

21:29

then put Tommy into the back of his patrol

21:31

car and drove away and when he

21:33

returned to the carport sometime later, Tommy

21:35

was no longer in the vehicle. Carrie

21:39

then witnessed Larry break a branch off a

21:41

tree and sweep away the tire marks in

21:43

the dirt. This

21:45

whole incident caused Karen to become so

21:47

frightened of her father that she hid

21:49

inside her bedroom closet and stayed silent

21:51

about what she had seen. After

21:54

Karen shared this story with both Judy and

21:57

Debbie, They contacted the Oregon

21:59

State Police. And as soon

22:01

paved the way to Larry being indicted

22:03

and arrested for Tommy's murder. He.

22:05

Was subsequently extradited back to Oregon

22:07

and remaining parts raided in the

22:09

Douglas County jail to await his

22:11

trial. Which. Began in Douglas County

22:14

Circuit Court in Roseburg and January

22:16

of Nineteen Ninety Five. Instead.

22:19

Of the Oregon State Police his original

22:21

theory about Tommy being killed by a

22:23

stray bullet. The. Prosecution presented

22:25

a new variation on the

22:27

scenario. They. Allege

22:29

that when Larry left his home to go

22:32

jogging, Tommy attempted to follow him. But.

22:34

Larry told him to go back to the house and wait

22:36

for a sister to come out. Shortly.

22:38

Thereafter, Larry fired the shot.

22:40

Into the Cat that after hearing the noise

22:43

Tommy walked into the yard to see what

22:45

was going on. When. Larry

22:47

spotted assigned. He became angry at

22:49

him for disobeying him. So. He

22:51

picked up Tommy and took him to the carport.

22:54

He. Then flew into a violent rage in

22:57

which he hit Tommy multiple times and wound

22:59

up killing him. When.

23:01

Larry noticed that care and have been watching

23:03

him through her bedroom window. Larry place

23:05

Tommy's body inside his patrol car

23:07

and drove a behind would pile

23:09

on his property. He.

23:12

Then proceeded to put Tommy's body

23:14

inside a large white plastic garbage

23:16

bag and placed inside the trunk

23:18

before he headed out jogging. The.

23:21

Prosecution theorize that Larry be of

23:23

use this additional time to figure

23:25

out a location to dispose of

23:27

Tommy's body before he returned home.

23:30

And. This entire series of events would

23:32

have taken around forty seven minutes. Larry.

23:35

Then called the sheriff's office to report

23:37

a son missing and later that day

23:39

he drove the patrol car off his

23:41

property in order to dispose of Tommy's

23:43

body. whenever. Larry

23:46

shot stray cats on his property. You would

23:48

often place or bodies inside trash bags and

23:50

then dump them inside a garbage can a

23:52

one of the rest areas Id to say

23:54

five. The. prosecution theorized that

23:57

larry was planned you do the same thing

23:59

to tommy but decided against it when

24:01

he arrived at the rest area and discovered there

24:03

were too many cars there. Instead,

24:06

Larry drove down a nearby logging road

24:08

known as Swamp Creek Road and disposed

24:10

of Tommy's body in a remote gravel

24:12

pit as investigators claimed there

24:15

was one occasion when they took Larry

24:17

to this spot and he reportedly acted

24:19

upset and nervous. Since

24:21

there was no body or any physical

24:23

evidence, the case against Larry would rely

24:26

heavily on his daughter's testimony against him.

24:29

While Karen was eight years old at this point, she

24:31

had only been four years old when she

24:34

supposedly witnessed Tommy's murder, so the

24:36

defense would argue that her account was

24:38

unreliable. In the weeks

24:40

following her brother's disappearance, Karen

24:42

had been placed under hypnosis by law enforcement

24:44

in order to improve her memory, but

24:47

she never said anything about seeing her

24:49

father hit Tommy. In

24:51

fact, Larry had consented to the hypnosis and

24:54

allowed Karen to be questioned by

24:56

police detectives, a child welfare worker,

24:58

and a therapist, and the defense

25:00

argued that Larry never would have done that

25:02

if he was responsible for Tommy's death. When

25:05

Karen took the stand to testify, she

25:08

was clutching a teddy bear in her arms and

25:10

claimed that when Larry realized she had seen him

25:12

kill Tommy, he told her that if she did

25:14

not keep her mouth shut, she would

25:16

either go to jail or the same thing that

25:18

happened to Tommy might happen to her as well.

25:22

As a result, Karen stayed silent about it,

25:24

though a few months later, Larry would

25:26

order her to tell police that she saw

25:29

Tommy get abducted by a couple in a

25:31

pickup truck. She

25:33

said she was too afraid to tell anyone about

25:35

what she saw her father do until she moved

25:37

to Iowa with her mother and was over a

25:39

thousand miles away from him. When

25:42

asked under cross-examination if she still

25:44

loved her father, Karen simply replied,

25:47

no. Judy took

25:49

the stand to testify and said that

25:51

she did not believe her ex-husband had anything to

25:53

do with Tommy's disappearance until

25:55

she heard Karen's story. However,

25:58

She also acknowledged that Larry was not a victim of the murder. There,

26:00

he had been physically abusive towards her and

26:02

their children throughout the course of their marriage.

26:05

At a time Tommy went missing, Judy

26:07

was taking college classes. Which. Meant

26:10

that Larry had to care for their

26:12

kids more frequently than usual and is

26:14

apparently caused his stress levels to rise.

26:17

Judy. Recount one incident which took

26:19

place before Tommy was missing. Which.

26:21

He came into the kitchen and found

26:23

on he screaming and line on the

26:25

floor next to his fallen high chair

26:27

with Larry standing over. Tommy

26:30

also had red marks on his face and

26:32

when Judy told Larry not to hit the

26:34

children so hard. He. Replied that he

26:36

did not believe he hit Tommy too hard.

26:39

She. Also said that Larry often push Tommy

26:42

whenever. The boy guys who is way. Which.

26:44

Left him with wealth and bruises. And

26:46

there was an additional incidents where Larry

26:49

push carried to the ground because he

26:51

interfered with his television watching. For.

26:53

His part, Larry, took the stand to

26:55

testify in his own defense. And

26:58

did not deny that. He disciplined his children and

27:00

it's fake them hard a few times. But.

27:03

He argued that is disciplined was not

27:05

excessive or frequent and that he never

27:07

crossed the line into abuse. Larry's.

27:11

Half sister Debbie hey like. With.

27:13

Testify that a few months after Tommy

27:15

went missing, she'd received a frantic, tearful

27:17

phone call from Larry who confess to

27:19

having killed his son. The.

27:22

Call apparently took place on the

27:24

same day when investigators first openly

27:26

expressed her suspicions towards Larry. So.

27:28

He said he was worried that Judy would never

27:31

forgive him for it and told Debbie that he

27:33

might need money to post bail as he was

27:35

arrested. Years. Later when Judy

27:37

and or three daughters moved in with daddy.

27:40

She. Claimed there was an incident when they

27:42

were watching an episode of The Flintstones on

27:44

television which showed a picture of a large

27:46

hole. Upon. Seeing is Karen

27:48

supposedly said that she did one or daddy

27:50

to put her in a large hole like

27:52

he did with Tommy. And. shortly

27:54

thereafter current finally shared her story

27:57

about having witnessed tommy's death and

27:59

when Debbie asked her to repeat it

28:01

a few times, she was struck by

28:03

how consistent the story was and how

28:05

many vivid details Karen remembered, which

28:08

is why Debbie found her account to be credible.

28:11

Additional testimony was also provided by a

28:13

former babysitter of the Gibsons, who

28:16

claimed that she looked after Karen shortly

28:18

after Tommy went missing, and

28:20

heard the girl state that her father

28:22

had quote unquote broke her brother. Oh,

28:25

and the trial finally resolved the mystery

28:27

of the aforementioned spot in the road

28:30

letter as an Azalea resident named Warren

28:32

Deschler took the stand to reveal

28:34

that the anonymous writer was likely his wife

28:36

who had passed away in 1993. According

28:40

to Deschler, he and his wife had been

28:43

camping on the Oregon coast on the day

28:45

of Tommy's disappearance, but at some

28:47

point she claimed that she had a

28:49

psychic vision of the event and decided

28:51

to write an anonymous letter to the

28:53

authorities recounting what she had seen. As

28:56

far as I can tell, the contents of the

28:58

letter have still never been revealed to the public,

29:01

but it does not sound like Mrs. Deschler

29:03

had any connection to the Gibsons or any

29:05

personal knowledge of what happened to Tommy, so

29:08

the letter was probably nothing more than a red

29:10

herring. The

29:13

trial lasted six weeks before it went to the

29:15

jury, and on March the 16th, after deliberating

29:18

for a total of 14 hours over

29:20

the course of two days, they found

29:22

Larry guilty. If

29:24

Larry had been convicted on the charges of

29:26

intentional murder and murder by abuse, he

29:28

could have received up to ten years in

29:31

prison for each charge, but the jury instead

29:33

decided to convict him on the lesser charge

29:35

of second-degree manslaughter. Larry's

29:37

defense attorney, Alan Scott, told the press,

29:40

quote, I wasn't surprised at the

29:42

verdict, it's what I expected, but

29:44

in a way, it's a defense verdict because I

29:46

know he's not going to do a substantial period

29:48

of time in jail, end quote. While

29:52

the usual sentencing guidelines for that charge would have

29:54

been around 16 to 18 months,

29:57

the Trial judge decided to hand down a

29:59

sentence. Three years which larry with

30:01

serve at the Oregon State Penitentiary

30:04

in Salem. But. Since

30:06

Larry have spent nearly a year in

30:08

jail awaiting trial. This. Would count

30:10

as time served towards a sense. Judy

30:13

openly expressed disappointment about this stating

30:15

quote I would have thought Tommy's

30:17

life was worth more than two

30:19

years he only gets to serve

30:21

to that's nothing to him And

30:23

quote. While. A number

30:25

of people hope that layer would finally admit

30:28

to what he had done and reveal the

30:30

location of Tommy's body. He continued to maintained

30:32

his innocence and said that he would help

30:34

search for a son was he fit If

30:36

serving as time. After

30:39

having some additional time shaved off

30:41

his sense for good behavior, Larry

30:43

was released from the Oregon State

30:45

Penitentiary in September of Ninety Ninety

30:47

Six after only having served eighteen

30:49

months there, and he subsequently move

30:52

back to Montana. Larry.

30:54

Continue to insist that he was wrongly

30:56

convicted and in two thousand and one.

30:59

He even went so far as to start

31:01

a website for Tommy in order to spread

31:03

awareness about his son's case and seek the

31:05

public's help with by the him. Following.

31:08

Larry's conviction. The authorities had close

31:10

the investigation into Tommy's disappearance as

31:12

they still believe that Larry was

31:14

the guilty party and would not

31:16

be pursuing any further leads. But

31:19

unfortunately after three decades Tommy

31:21

Gibson's remains of still not

31:24

been found and the actual

31:26

circumstances of his disappearance continued

31:28

remain up for debate. So.

31:30

I guess you could say that Israel

31:32

went cold. so

31:54

this is a case which is haunted me

31:56

since i saw it featured on unsolved mysteries

31:58

over thirty years ago and since it

32:00

is now technically considered to be solved, I

32:02

debated about whether or not it was appropriate

32:04

to feature it on the trail when cold.

32:08

But even though Larry Gibson was charged

32:10

and convicted of being responsible for

32:12

Tommy's death, he has never stopped

32:14

maintaining his innocence, and most importantly,

32:16

Tommy's body has still not been

32:18

found. I covered

32:20

a couple of missing persons cases on

32:22

this podcast which have wound up being

32:24

solved without the victims being found, such

32:27

as the disappearances of Pamela Butler, Bethany

32:29

Decker, and Reenie and Andrew McCray. But

32:32

the circumstances of those cases were quite

32:34

different, as even though it was determined

32:37

that the victims' remains were probably not

32:39

recoverable, you still felt there was a

32:41

resolution and that some sort of justice

32:44

had been served. Here,

32:46

regardless of how you feel about

32:48

the prime suspect's guilt or innocence,

32:51

I think we can all agree that

32:53

the conclusion was incredibly unsatisfying. If

32:56

Larry Gibson was not actually guilty, then

32:59

an innocent father got railroaded and had to

33:01

serve time in prison for a crime he

33:03

did not commit. But

33:05

if Larry was guilty, then he got

33:07

off way too easy, as he

33:09

only served a total of 29 months behind

33:12

bars and that certainly does not feel like

33:14

a punishment which fit the crime. Truthfully,

33:17

I almost would have preferred if

33:19

the authorities had held off on filing charges

33:21

against him. Since he

33:23

has already been tried and convicted and served

33:25

his time, Larry can never be charged

33:28

with this crime again, even if

33:30

Tommy's remains were found or if new evidence

33:32

were to surface. So

33:34

if Larry did this, he's been able to

33:36

spend the past 27 years living a normal

33:38

life, whereas if he had never

33:40

been charged, he might still be looking over

33:42

his shoulder today and living in constant fear

33:45

and paranoia that he could be arrested at

33:47

any time. As

33:49

it is right now, the investigation into

33:51

Tommy's disappearance is officially closed, but

33:53

I still think there are a

33:55

lot of unanswered questions which deserve

33:57

discussion and analysis. Now,

34:00

I'll state right up front that one

34:02

of my biggest pet peeves in the

34:04

true crime world is when people automatically

34:06

assume that a missing or murdered victim's

34:08

spouse or family member is guilty based

34:10

on how they come across in interviews with the

34:12

media. I mean, if there's

34:15

strong evidence to indicate they're involved, that would be

34:17

one thing, but there are

34:19

many amateur sleuths who will immediately become

34:21

suspicious of someone if they are not

34:23

acting what they perceive to be as

34:25

emotional enough. That can

34:27

often be an unfair assessment, since there

34:30

is no universal reaction to tragedy, as

34:32

different people will react and grieve in

34:34

different ways, and I'm someone who prefers

34:37

to assess a case by the evidence

34:39

rather than the emotions or lack thereof

34:41

from the people involved. All

34:43

that being said, however, there is

34:45

something about Larry Gibson's interview on

34:47

Unsolved Mysteries which has always unsettled

34:49

me, as I can't think

34:51

of too many other examples of a

34:54

parent coming across as less emotional over

34:56

their missing child. Granted,

34:58

Larry may have just been a very

35:00

introverted, unemotional person in general and this

35:02

was his way of dealing with things,

35:05

but he speaks in a very flat,

35:07

monotone voice and his demeanor

35:09

gives off the vibe that Tommy's disappearance

35:11

is more of an annoyance and inconvenience

35:13

to him rather than a traumatic ordeal.

35:16

Granted, even that he was

35:18

being accused of being responsible for what

35:20

happened, I can understand Larry's frustration if

35:22

he was actually innocent and if the

35:25

only evidence against him was his perceived

35:27

lack of emotion that I wouldn't judge

35:29

him as harshly. But once

35:31

you hear about his other troubling actions

35:33

in this case and the allegations of

35:36

abuse that he inflicted upon Tommy and

35:38

his siblings, Larry's interview becomes quite unnerving

35:40

to watch. What's

35:42

even more surprising is that Larry himself

35:44

apparently took the initiative to contact Unsolved

35:47

Mysteries and asked them to feature Tommy's

35:49

story which would be an incredibly brazen

35:51

thing to do if he was guilty.

35:55

He may have done so in hopes that this would

35:57

help him clear his name, but I'm not

35:59

sure Larry realized just how much worse his

36:01

appearance was going to make him look. If

36:04

you go back and read some of the earliest

36:07

media coverage of this case, you wouldn't assume that

36:09

there was any reason to believe that Larry was

36:11

responsible. At one point, the

36:13

local press published an article announcing

36:15

that Larry had undertaken a new

36:18

initiative in which he began fingerprinting

36:20

local children. He figured it

36:22

would be a good idea for the authorities

36:24

to have these kids prints on file in

36:26

case they ever went missing some day, and

36:28

Larry said that he had even taken Tommy's

36:30

prints a few weeks before he disappeared. Given

36:33

that he was a police officer, I think

36:36

it took many people in the community by

36:38

complete surprise when the Oregon State Police publicly

36:40

named him as the prime suspect. But

36:43

there were people who admitted that they always

36:46

felt something was off about Larry from the

36:48

very beginning, such as when he advised a

36:50

group of searchers not to bother looking for

36:52

Tommy because it was about to start snowing.

36:55

Even when Larry went on trial years

36:58

later, it sounds like opinions in Douglas

37:00

County were still sharply divided about him.

37:03

A Glendale resident named Terry Reed told

37:05

the press, quote, It used to

37:07

be a saying that you don't talk about sex and

37:09

religion. Well, in this town,

37:11

you don't talk about sex, religion and

37:13

Larry Gibson. It gets into

37:16

some pretty heated discussions. End quote. It's

37:19

also worth noting that in the days

37:21

following Tommy's disappearance, Larry sat down with

37:24

his electric guitar and recorded a song

37:26

for his son with such lyrics as

37:28

Tommy, where are you Tommy? He

37:31

then called around to all the local radio

37:33

and television stations to ask if they could

37:35

play the song. If

37:37

Larry was a truly innocent grieving father,

37:39

then this would probably seem like a

37:41

very touching gesture. But

37:43

in retrospect, knowing what we know now, it comes

37:46

across as a bit odd. I

37:49

mentioned earlier that in the years following his

37:51

release from prison, Larry put up

37:53

a website for Tommy asking for assistance

37:55

to help solve his disappearance. But

37:58

around the same time, Larry was not a victim of sex. Larry also put

38:00

up a separate website for himself in

38:03

which he attempted to promote his new career

38:05

as a country music singer. Now

38:08

I wouldn't say the guy was

38:10

Garth Brooks or anything but it

38:12

looks like Larry did spend years

38:14

touring and performing at numerous venues

38:16

throughout Montana and even recorded and

38:18

sold some CDs. These

38:21

websites for Tommy and Larry were put up in

38:23

2001 and were around for many years but

38:27

it looks like they're no longer functional. But

38:29

I do remember seeing a picture of

38:31

Larry on his website in which he

38:33

was pretty much completely unrecognizable from his

38:35

Unsolved Mysteries appearance as he was now

38:37

dressed like a cowboy and had a

38:39

thick white beard. And

38:41

while it's since been taken down,

38:44

I also once found a YouTube

38:46

channel containing handheld videos of Larry's

38:48

country music performances. And

38:50

interestingly enough, I recall that the comment

38:53

sections on all these YouTube videos just

38:55

happened to be disabled almost as if

38:57

Larry did not want anyone bringing up

38:59

his controversial past. Larry's

39:02

post-release attempt at a country music career

39:04

makes me wonder if he had ulterior

39:06

motives when he recorded that song for

39:08

Tommy back in 1991 as he wanted

39:10

to have it played on the radio

39:12

and TV. Now

39:15

since Larry has served his time and cannot

39:17

be sent to prison again for anything

39:19

related to Tommy's death, you

39:21

might be wondering why he simply couldn't just

39:23

fess up and reveal the location of

39:25

Tommy's remains if he was guilty. Well

39:28

that's probably because he'd still have to live with

39:30

the stigma of admitting that he killed his two

39:32

year old son, so you can

39:35

understand why he would continue maintaining his

39:37

innocence to try and preserve his reputation.

39:41

Of course I know that many of you listeners

39:43

out there are animal lovers and I'm

39:45

sure that once you heard the detail about Larry

39:47

shooting a cat, you probably didn't care

39:49

if he was innocent or guilty and wanted to

39:51

lock him up and throw away the key just

39:53

for that. It's kind

39:56

of similar to when many people heard the story

39:58

of Steven Avery throwing a cat into a fire

40:00

at the beginning of making a murderer and

40:02

developed an immediate dislike for him. While

40:05

Larry said that it was common practice to shoot

40:07

at stray cats on his property because they could

40:09

be feral and there was nothing else he could

40:11

do with them, I was surprised

40:13

to learn that he actually wound up shooting

40:15

his neighbor's cat by mistake. Even

40:18

more surprising was that the cat belonged to

40:20

the family of Jeanette Klein, who would

40:22

later provide an eyewitness account which

40:24

seemed to support Larry's innocence. That

40:27

was a remarkably considerate thing for her

40:30

to do, considering that Larry killed her

40:32

daughter-in-law's cat and pretty much just said,

40:34

oops sorry. What's particularly

40:36

controversial about this case is that the

40:38

initial theory presented by the authorities was

40:40

that Tommy may have accidentally been killed

40:43

by a stray bullet when Larry fired

40:45

the shot into the cat and then

40:47

he decided to cover up what he

40:49

had done by disposing of Tommy's body.

40:52

But when Larry went on trial and was

40:54

convicted years later, the prosecution presented an

40:56

entirely different scenario where Larry beat his

40:59

son to death in a violent rage

41:01

and covered up the crime. I

41:04

already had a negative impression of Larry based

41:06

on how the Unsolved Mysteries segment portrayed this

41:09

case, but if the stray bullet theory

41:11

was true, then at least you could say

41:13

that Tommy's death was a freak accident. However,

41:16

once I learned that Larry may

41:18

have actually fatally beaten his two-year-old

41:20

son, I discussed for him somehow

41:22

multiplied by thousands. If

41:25

this is what actually happened, then Larry

41:27

deserved to rot in prison for the rest of his

41:29

life, but since the case against

41:31

him was based almost entirely on the testimony

41:33

of his daughter Karen, who was only four

41:35

years old at that time and had changed

41:38

her original story, I can see

41:40

why some people may have been skeptical of

41:42

this scenario and felt that the evidence against

41:44

Larry was not strong enough to convict

41:46

him beyond a reasonable doubt.

41:49

And I find it interesting how even

41:51

though Larry was indicted on the charges

41:53

of intentional murder and murder by abuse,

41:56

the jury made the decision to convict him

41:58

on the lesser charge of second-degree murder. manslaughter.

42:01

I wouldn't go so far as to say that

42:04

this was intentional murder, since I doubt that

42:06

Larry planned on killing his son, but

42:08

if the scenario presented at trial

42:10

was true, then I'd say that

42:12

Tommy's death definitely qualifies as an

42:14

example of murder by abuse. But

42:17

if Tommy had actually been killed by a

42:19

stray bullet, then this would

42:21

probably fit the second-degree manslaughter charge.

42:24

So this makes me think the jury did

42:27

feel that Larry was responsible for Tommy's death,

42:29

but did not necessarily believe the

42:32

prosecution's theory. After

42:34

he was convicted, Larry spoke with the

42:36

press and expressed his surprise with the

42:38

verdict when he stated, quote, I

42:40

don't understand their decision at all. I

42:43

think they should have gone all or nothing,

42:45

the way they decided it, I'm kind of

42:47

pregnant, end quote. So

42:50

let's explore the events on the day Tommy went

42:52

missing. The story which Larry

42:54

has always stuck to is that he last

42:56

saw his son playing on the front porch

42:58

before he went off jogging, but by the

43:00

time he returned, Tommy was gone. Of

43:03

course, the biggest red flag is that Larry

43:05

claimed that he was gone for 47 minutes,

43:08

but when investigators mapped out the route he says

43:10

he took, then he determined that he

43:12

really should have only been gone for about

43:14

20 minutes max. If it

43:16

really took him 47 minutes to only cover

43:18

one mile, then I don't think what he

43:21

was doing would really qualify as jogging. I

43:24

hate having to focus so much on

43:26

the murder of an animal, but unfortunately,

43:28

it is an extremely crucial detail in

43:30

this case. It was confirmed

43:32

that Larry did shoot the Klein family's cat

43:34

that day and he claimed this happened right

43:37

as he was crossing over a fence to

43:39

leave his yard. So

43:41

the original theory from investigators is that

43:43

Larry may not have even realized that

43:45

the bullet hit Tommy until after he

43:47

returned, meaning that he may have spent

43:49

about 20 minutes jogging and the next 27 minutes

43:52

or so covering up what he did and

43:54

putting Tommy's body in the trunk of his

43:56

patrol car. Now You

43:59

might be thinking that. The bali the laws

44:01

of physics for a stray bullet to pass

44:03

through an animal's body and then hit a

44:05

child who was about one hundred feet away.

44:08

But. As we've seen in cases like

44:10

the Rhonda Hinson murder which was also

44:12

covered on unsolved mysteries and episode number

44:15

four of the Trail would called sometimes

44:17

these freak occurrence with bullets do with

44:19

her. It is very

44:21

odd that. Leary told contradictory stories

44:23

about searching for the shell casing

44:25

from the Saudi fired. As

44:28

he apparently told one investigators that he

44:30

found the casing before claiming that he

44:32

didn't. During. A

44:34

search of the Gibbs and residents as

44:36

showcasing was founded a dresser underneath some

44:38

children's underwear, and while that's admittedly a

44:41

weird place to put it, I'm not

44:43

sure if it was ever conclusively established

44:45

if it was the same pacing from

44:47

the shot fired into the cat. If.

44:50

The casing was connected to Tommy Step. I'm

44:53

not sure why Larry would keep it around

44:55

rather than just get rid of it. Of

44:58

course, there are still some. Holes with the

45:00

stray bullet Theory. For. Years

45:02

Larry's wife, Judy supported him.

45:05

And maintained that was you recall hearing

45:07

Larry's gunshot for inside their home that

45:09

morning. She. Then heard the

45:11

sound of Tommy playing outside immediately

45:14

thereafter. Which. Would seemingly Du Pont

45:16

the idea of he'd be killed by a

45:18

stray bullet. Another

45:20

issue with this theory is that the

45:22

following day Larry approach Jennifer Klein and

45:24

flat out admitted that he may have

45:27

shot her cat. If.

45:29

The same shot kill Tommy. Why?

45:31

Would leery of disposed of the cat's

45:33

body as well and pretended that the

45:35

whole incident never happened. Well.

45:38

Larry story is that when he fired the

45:40

shot, the cat took off with some weeds

45:42

downhill. So. He initially assumed that he

45:44

had missed. It's. Possible that

45:47

the cat traveled a great distance before

45:49

it died, but Larry was unable to

45:51

find the body. So. he

45:53

decided to preemptively tell jennifer klein about

45:55

what he did a case he wound

45:57

up discovering the cat's body and sure

45:59

enough that's exactly what happened. However,

46:03

by the time Larry went on trial,

46:05

the authorities adjusted their theory to Tommy

46:07

heading into the yard after he heard

46:09

his father fire the shot, and Larry

46:11

became so enraged about his son disobeying

46:13

him that he wound up beating the

46:15

child to death. If this

46:18

is what actually happened, then it could

46:20

explain why Judy said she could still

46:22

hear Tommy playing outside on the porch

46:24

right after the shot was fired. And

46:27

if Karen's account of witnessing her father kill

46:29

Tommy is true, then this could mean that

46:31

Larry spent that entire 47 minute

46:34

window covering up what he did. Of

46:37

course, if this all took place right outside the

46:39

house, you have to wonder if Larry

46:41

would have been able to pull this off without any

46:43

of the adults noticing. Judy

46:45

always claimed that she believed Larry was

46:47

innocent until they got separated three years

46:49

later, and Karen finally shared

46:52

her account about witnessing him kill Tommy.

46:55

If Karen was terrified of her father, it

46:57

makes total sense that she would remain silent

46:59

about this story and not open up until

47:02

she was living in Iowa over a thousand

47:04

miles away from him. But

47:06

the argument pushed forward by Larry's defense

47:08

team is that the timing

47:10

of this whole situation was awfully convenient

47:12

as they believe that Judy may have

47:14

coached Karen into sharing this story to

47:17

get revenge against Larry for their separation.

47:20

Well, regardless of whether or not you

47:22

believe Larry is guilty of causing Tommy's

47:24

death, it does sound like

47:26

there was a lot of domestic violence in

47:28

that household and that it got progressively worse

47:31

after Tommy went missing. If

47:34

you search online, you can find

47:36

a legal appeal that Larry's defense team had

47:38

filed with the Court of Appeals of Oregon,

47:40

which details a number of the allegations

47:43

about him being abusive, not only towards

47:45

Tommy, but his three daughters as well.

47:48

It sounds like he could lose his temper at

47:50

a moment's notice and Judy even

47:52

recounted an incident where she returned home

47:55

from the hospital after giving birth to

47:57

their youngest daughter, Katrina, and noticing red

47:59

marks. marks on the leg of her

48:01

second youngest daughter, Lisa, who only would

48:03

have been about a year old at that time. While

48:06

Larry tried to say that the marks were rug burns,

48:09

Judy said that she later witnessed him hit

48:11

Lisa when she got into his way and

48:13

it left similar looking red marks. If

48:17

these allegations were true, then

48:19

it's apparent that Larry just did not have

48:21

the patience or temperament to raise children, so

48:24

you could definitely believe he was capable of

48:26

doing what Karen accused him of. But

48:29

did Judy have any knowledge of what Larry

48:31

did to Tommy before they were separated? She

48:34

claimed that she went outside about 10 minutes

48:36

after Larry left on his jog and

48:38

noticed that Tommy was gone, but

48:40

if Karen's story is true, Larry would have

48:43

moved his patrol car behind a wood pile

48:45

on the property by that point and

48:47

was in the midst of placing Tommy's body

48:49

inside a trash bag. Would

48:51

he really have been able to do this undetected

48:54

if Judy was outside? Did she

48:56

not notice that Larry's patrol car wasn't parked where

48:58

it was supposed to be? Or

49:00

did Larry already place Tommy's body in

49:03

the trunk, return the patrol car to

49:05

its original parking spot, and then go

49:07

jogging before Judy went outside? While

49:11

Judy technically did pass a polygraph during

49:13

the early stages of the investigation, the

49:15

results apparently showed that she may have known more

49:17

than she was letting on. This

49:20

did not necessarily mean she was lying

49:22

or personally witnessed anything, but she

49:25

may have secretly suspected Larry, but was too

49:27

frightened of him to say anything. However,

49:30

if Judy believed that Larry

49:32

killed Tommy and had no evidence to

49:34

prove it, could she have coached Karen

49:36

into sharing this story? Another

49:40

wild card in this case is Larry's

49:42

half-brother Michael, who was staying at the

49:44

Gibson residence during this time period and

49:46

was present on the morning Tommy disappeared.

49:49

As far as I can tell, Michael was

49:51

never interviewed by the media and I've only

49:53

seen him get mentioned briefly in a few

49:55

articles about this case. One

49:58

reason the Oregon State Police suspicious of

50:00

Larry is because when they confronted him

50:02

with the theory about Tommy being killed

50:04

by the straight bullet, Larry

50:06

said that it was quote-unquote possible it could

50:09

have happened that way and even made an

50:11

odd statement about how Michael could have moved

50:13

the body. Wait, so

50:15

was Larry trying to imply that he could

50:17

have unknowingly shot Tommy with a straight bullet

50:19

and while he was out jogging Michael

50:22

just decided to dispose of Tommy's body

50:24

without his knowledge? That

50:26

scenario doesn't make any sense, but it

50:28

almost sounds like Larry was trying to

50:30

cast suspicion towards his brother. For

50:33

a while, I actually wondered if Michael might

50:35

have been the author of the anonymous spot

50:37

in the road letter and that

50:39

perhaps he witnessed something incriminating that day

50:41

and wanted to clear his conscience, but

50:43

was too scared to come forward. However,

50:47

now that we know that it was written by

50:49

an outsider who had a so-called psychic vision, it

50:52

sounds like the letter has no relevance to this case

50:54

at all. But while

50:56

we don't know much about Michael, we do

50:58

know that Larry's half-sister Debbie took in Judy

51:00

and the kids after they left him and

51:03

Debbie flat-out testified against Larry at

51:05

his trial. Debbie confirmed

51:08

she saw Karen open up about

51:10

witnessing her father kill Tommy and

51:12

that the child did so without

51:14

any provocation or coaching. In

51:16

addition, Debbie also claimed that

51:19

in the months following Tommy's disappearance, she

51:21

received a tearful phone call from Larry

51:23

who admitted to having killed him. It's

51:26

pretty damning when your own sibling testifies against

51:29

you like that, so I'd

51:31

be very curious to learn about the

51:33

dynamics in that family and what kind

51:35

of relationships Larry had with his half-sister

51:37

and half-brother. But

51:39

the fact that Debbie was willing to

51:42

provide corroboration for Judy gives off the

51:44

impression that Judy was not just some

51:46

vindictive ex who coached her daughter into

51:48

falsely accusing Larry of murder. So

51:51

one of the first things that caused

51:53

investigators to become suspicious of Larry is

51:55

that in the hours following Tommy's disappearance,

51:58

Larry was told he did not have to report. for

52:00

duty at the sheriff's office to work his

52:02

scheduled shift, but he still got dressed

52:04

in his police uniform and left the property

52:06

in his patrol car. And

52:09

even more damningly, he initially denied ever

52:11

leaving the property that day, and only

52:13

changed his story once investigators told him

52:15

that there were seven miles on the

52:17

odometer which could not be accounted for.

52:20

While Larry claimed that he went to check out some

52:22

nearby rest areas to see if Tommy might have been

52:24

taken there, it's odd that he wouldn't have

52:27

said this in the first place or told

52:29

his fellow officers where he was going. It's

52:32

believed that Larry had been keeping Tommy's body

52:34

in the trunk and used this opportunity to

52:36

slip off the property in order to dispose

52:38

of him. I think

52:40

the reason Larry changed into his uniform is

52:43

because he knew that if any witnesses

52:45

saw him driving patrol car while he

52:47

was dressed in civilian clothing, it probably

52:49

would have attracted attention and caused suspicion.

52:53

Larry's story was that he spent about 10 to 15

52:55

minutes searching each of the two rest

52:57

areas, but while it's unclear exactly how

52:59

much time he was away from his

53:01

property, we know he couldn't have gone

53:03

far. When you

53:06

look at the discrepancy with the odometer, and

53:08

also take into account the distance Larry would

53:10

have required to drive back home, the

53:13

maximum amount he could have traveled is around three

53:15

and a half miles. Investigators

53:17

suspect that Larry disposed of Tommy's

53:19

body in a remote gravel pit

53:21

located on the nearby logging road,

53:23

but I'm not sure how thoroughly

53:25

this gravel pit was searched. If

53:28

Larry was gone from his property for less than an

53:31

hour, I question whether he would

53:33

have had enough time to dispose of Tommy's

53:35

body so thoroughly that it hasn't been found

53:37

in over 30 years. However,

53:40

at Larry's trial, the prosecution

53:42

tried to account for this by

53:44

pushing forward the theory that a bear could

53:46

have carried off Tommy's body from the gravel

53:48

pit, so by the time anyone started searching

53:50

that area, there may not have been anything

53:53

left to find. I

53:55

guess if there's one reason why I might be

53:57

skeptical of this theory, is that I'm not

53:59

sure why Larry Larry wouldn't have gotten rid

54:01

of Tommy's body before he reported him

54:03

missing. It just seems

54:05

like a major risk to keep him on the

54:08

property while a search effort is taking place. What

54:11

if tracking dogs had been brought to the scene

54:13

who were able to detect Tommy's scent from inside

54:15

the trunk? But on

54:17

the other hand, if Judy and Michael had

54:19

no knowledge or involvement with what happened to

54:22

Tommy, I'm sure they would have

54:24

found it suspicious if Larry left the property

54:26

in his patrol car as they noticed the

54:28

boy was missing at around noon and Larry

54:30

was not scheduled to report to work until

54:32

2pm. But

54:34

what if Larry was innocent all along and

54:36

Tommy really was the victim of a stranger

54:39

abduction? Well, that's the theory

54:41

Larry has always tried to push forward as

54:43

he claimed that Karen told him she witnessed

54:45

a man and a woman drive up to

54:47

his residence in a yellow pickup truck and

54:49

kidnap Tommy. While Larry's

54:52

defense attorneys accused Judy of coaching Karen

54:54

into sharing her story about her father

54:56

killing Tommy, Larry has been

54:58

accused of coaching Karen to share her

55:00

story about seeing these two kidnappers. Now

55:03

to be fair, Karen's story was somewhat

55:05

supported by the account from Jeanette Klein who

55:08

recalled seeing a similar looking pickup truck

55:10

turning up the driveway leading to the

55:13

Gibson's property on the same morning Tommy

55:15

went missing. And

55:17

while Jeanette never specifically described seeing a man

55:19

and a woman, she said she saw two

55:21

silhouettes inside the truck. I

55:24

certainly do not believe Jeanette is intentionally lying,

55:26

especially when you consider that Larry shot her

55:29

family's cat so I can't imagine she would

55:31

go out of her way to protect him.

55:34

But I think it's possible that she may have

55:37

been mistaken about the date or did see a

55:39

truck on that particular morning and it has no

55:41

significance to this case. If

55:43

Karen had shared a story about a pickup

55:46

truck first and it was later corroborated

55:48

by Jeanette, I would put more credence

55:50

into these sightings. However,

55:52

the fact that Karen did not mention

55:54

the truck until months after Jeanette reported

55:56

her sighting does lend credence to the

55:59

idea that Larry could have taken the

56:01

details from Jeanette's story and used them

56:03

to coach Karen into sharing a similar

56:05

story. Yes, you could

56:07

argue that Karen was so traumatized by what

56:09

she saw that she remained silent about it

56:12

for months, but it seems convenient

56:14

that Karen never said anything until

56:16

after investigators informed Larry that they

56:18

considered him to be the prime

56:20

suspect. So I'm sure

56:22

it would have been in Larry's best

56:24

interest to create an alternate narrative involving

56:26

these boogeyman kidnappers. While

56:29

it's certainly not impossible that a stranger

56:31

abduction took place, my main

56:33

problem with that theory is the sheer

56:35

remoteness of where the Gibsons' residence was

56:37

located. Not only was

56:40

it in a rural area in the middle of nowhere,

56:42

but anyone who visited the Gibsons would

56:44

need to turn off a Zalia Glen

56:46

Road and drive down a lengthy driveway

56:49

before they reached the carport where Tommy

56:51

was allegedly abducted. So

56:53

it's not like some random passerby could

56:55

have just been driving down this road

56:57

and noticed Tommy playing alone outside. If

57:01

this couple and the pickup truck were

57:03

looking for a random child to abduct,

57:05

the odds against them arriving at this

57:07

remote residence while Tommy just happens to

57:10

be playing outside unattended have to be

57:12

astronomical. Even if

57:14

by chance these abductors knew Tommy and

57:16

were specifically targeting him, how

57:19

could they have predicted that he would

57:21

be alone without any adult supervision at

57:23

this particular time? I

57:25

know that Judy said that she recalled hearing

57:27

what sounded like a vehicle idling near the

57:30

residence during this time period, but if Karen's

57:32

story is true, then I wonder

57:34

if Judy might have heard Larry's patrol

57:36

car idling near the woodpile. Overall

57:40

I really just do not buy this

57:42

stranger abduction theory, which means that the

57:45

only other logical explanation which does not

57:47

involve Larry being the perpetrator is

57:49

if Tommy happened to wander away from

57:52

the property and died of exposure inside

57:54

the wood somewhere. While

57:56

a massive search effort was performed, we've seen

57:58

many cases where search efforts churches have had

58:00

no luck finding a missing victim in a

58:03

remote wilderness area only for the victims' remains

58:05

to turn up in the exact same area

58:07

years later because they had been missed the

58:09

first time around. I

58:11

suppose you can't completely discount the idea that

58:14

Tommy wandered off and his remains are still

58:16

out there somewhere, but this wouldn't

58:18

account for many of the other suspicious actions

58:20

on Larry's part. If

58:23

Tommy really did die of exposure and

58:25

there was no criminal activity involved, why

58:27

would Karen have shared this story about the couple

58:29

and the pickup truck? I

58:31

seriously doubt that a four-year-old is going to come up

58:34

with a story like that on their own, so

58:36

I definitely think she was coached and there

58:38

would be no need for Larry to do

58:40

something like that if his son simply wandered

58:42

off and died due to misadventure. I

58:45

do agree with this statement from

58:48

the Oregon State Police's original affidavit,

58:50

quote, But was the story shared

58:52

by Karen the actual truth about what happened? While

59:05

I do acknowledge that the memories of

59:07

a four-year-old can be unreliable, I

59:09

do believe that out of all the many

59:11

different theories presented in this case, the scenario

59:13

shared by the prosecution at Larry's trial is

59:16

the one which seems to make the most

59:18

sense. I am a bit

59:20

torn about the jury's decision to convict

59:22

Larry of secondary manslaughter, because

59:24

while part of me wishes that he had gotten a

59:26

stronger sentence, I do have to

59:29

admit that there's not much actual evidence

59:31

of foul play other than Karen's story,

59:33

Debbie's account of Larry's alleged confession over

59:35

the phone, and a documented history of

59:38

violence to indicate that Larry was capable

59:40

of killing his son. While

59:43

there's no way I believe that Larry is completely

59:45

innocent, I guess there is a

59:47

small possibility that Tommy's death was a

59:49

freak accident caused by a stray bullet

59:52

rather than a violent beating, which

59:54

is why the jury felt more comfortable

59:56

convicting Larry on the lesser charge. But

59:59

even so, The fact that Larry covered

1:00:01

up what he did, and denied his

1:00:03

son a proper burial, deserved punishment. While

1:00:06

I'm sure that serving nearly three years

1:00:08

behind bars was no picnic, Larry has

1:00:10

been able to live the past 27

1:00:12

years of his life as a free

1:00:15

man without admitting any culpability, and that's

1:00:17

a very bittersweet feeling for those who

1:00:19

want justice for Tommy. It

1:00:21

bothers me that this poor boy is still out

1:00:24

there somewhere, and I am sickened by the

1:00:26

theory that Larry may have dumped his son's body

1:00:28

in a gravel pit, where he was later

1:00:30

carried off by a bear. Even

1:00:32

if there's nothing that can be done in

1:00:34

this case from a legal standpoint, it would

1:00:36

still be nice to recover Tommy's remains. So

1:00:39

if you happen to have any information about

1:00:42

the disappearance of Tommy Gibson, please

1:00:44

contact the Douglas County Sheriff's Office

1:00:46

at 541-440-4450. That's

1:00:51

541-440-4450. But

1:00:56

if you just have your own thoughts

1:00:58

about what happened, feel free to leave

1:01:00

me a comment or send me an

1:01:03

email to robin.warder@icloud.com. That's robin.warder@icloud.com.

1:01:07

Now the reminder that The Trail Went

1:01:10

Cold is on Patreon, so please visit

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1:01:30

past month, I released a bonus episode

1:01:32

about a wanted fugitive named Carl Alfred

1:01:35

Edder, who was convicted of the murders

1:01:37

of a mother and her four children when he was

1:01:39

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1:01:41

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1:01:43

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1:01:47

also dropped an exclusive bonus episode from

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1:02:07

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and use the promo

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code COOL24. Once

1:03:07

again, that's crimecon.com and

1:03:09

crimecon.co.uk and the promo

1:03:11

code is COOL24 for

1:03:15

10% off tickets to both events. I

1:03:17

just wanted to give another shout out to

1:03:19

my supporters at the Unsolved Mysteries message board

1:03:22

at the Sitcoms Online Forum and the Unresolved

1:03:24

Mystery Subreddit. I need to provide

1:03:26

a big thanks to Miguel Foote who edits and

1:03:28

assembles this podcast together for me, and

1:03:30

Vince Nitro who composed the eerie music

1:03:32

here on every episode. If

1:03:34

you have an R&D you can like us on

1:03:36

Facebook, follow us on Twitter and Instagram, or

1:03:39

leave us a rating or review on

1:03:41

Apple Podcasts or Spotify. So

1:03:43

Have yourselves a great week and join

1:03:45

us next! Wednesday for another brand new

1:03:47

episode of The Trail Wind Cold.