0:03

Hello, my guest today is Nikki Abram, a lawyer by trade with strong opinions

0:10

on what works in leadership. She has applied these principles into her own business and now is building a

0:17

platform on which to share her thoughts on how to challenge the status quo and

0:23

drive the ownership mindset within teams.

0:26

I found our conversation fascinating, and I'm sure you will do too.

0:31

Welcome to the Transformation Leaders podcast, Nicky. It's great that you could join me today.

0:37

I'm keen to explore your experience within the sector that we haven't really

0:41

spoken about that much on the podcast to date, and how your leadership style

0:47

and beliefs have developed because of it. But before we get into the detail, just explain a little bit about who you are,

0:54

introduce yourself, let the audience know more about your background and your

0:57

career to date. I describe myself as a legal entrepreneur.

1:00

I have had an unconventional path through law.

1:03

It's been quite an entrepreneurial journey because the main thread that I guess

1:09

runs through my career is that I never wanted to be a traditional lawyer.

1:14

So I sought to transform, I guess, the perception and the practice of the role,

1:19

particularly in my younger days. So I would go into bigger organisations from day one, really,

1:24

to build employment and discrimination departments.

1:28

That's my background. By trade, I'm an employment and discrimination lawyer. And at the time,

1:34

it wasn't a practice area in its own right.

1:37

It was kind of annexed to commercial law.

1:40

But I really saw its scope to grow and thought that it had potential to be this

1:47

vehicle for societal change, and it is and it was. was.

1:51

So in building those, that meant a rejection of the conventional.

1:55

It meant that I wasn't taking on the roles in commercial law that were offered

1:59

to me that had a really delineated career path and a very specific timeframe

2:04

in terms of that upward trajectory.

2:07

It was predictable, put the business plan on the table and sought to collaborate

2:12

with the organizations I was in so that we could build the department.

2:16

We could really enhance the service and be that trusted advisor for our clients.

2:22

And it was, I mean, if I'm honest, I was very motivated by the notion of working

2:28

with agency and autonomy and really being in charge of the architecture of my

2:34

job role in collaboration with the firm.

2:36

And, you know, to align my own vision, my own strengths with those of the firm.

2:42

So it was a very entrepreneurial journey in that sense.

2:46

And I started my own firm with my business partner 10 years ago,

2:50

it's a commercial law firm in London. And there we sought to really work in a collaborative way, you know,

2:57

in our own world, both myself and my business partner had experienced lawyers

3:02

in the same firm that were competing with one another, you know.

3:05

The clients were currency, so they would look at their own billing,

3:11

be really possessive over clients. We thought that was at cross-purposes with what the client needed.

3:16

We wanted to be their trusted advisor and surround them with everything they

3:20

needed, really get into the bone of their business, and we did that and worked

3:24

closely alongside them. But also, it has always been important to us to –.

3:31

Reshade the way we took people on so to

3:34

align the the technical skill with people

3:38

who had a diversity in journeys and

3:42

experiences and have those essential skills

3:45

and character traits that would mean that

3:48

they could serve each other and clients with

3:52

empathy with commerciality and that's

3:55

really what i think has enriched the

3:58

organization and and looking at in a wider sense what

4:01

enriches organizations generally but the

4:04

big I mean the big I've transformed if we want to

4:07

keep into the you know the the subject matter of this podcast I've

4:10

transformed as a leader a lot I have led in

4:13

a very top-down way in in the earlier days

4:16

you know being very very specific about how

4:19

to run cases how to build the department

4:22

and I think doing that have led

4:25

through inspiration in in a a way because I

4:28

was so passionate about what I was doing but that

4:31

only gets you so far that can serve to stifle people

4:34

so I've really evolved and being from that

4:37

to being an empowerer and enabler enabling relationships and people's progression

4:44

and their journeys to to now where I'm not so so involved in doing the day-to-day

4:50

lawyering and the and the deep operations of the firm But I'm speaking a lot

4:54

about the bigger concepts. How do we shape the workforce of the future in a way that fits our world.

5:02

The world we're in and the world we're going into? And how do we really work in a way that invigorates us and that provides us

5:10

with significance? Because we all deserve that.

5:13

And most importantly, how do organizations cultivate that in a way that allows

5:18

individuals and organizations to flourish?

5:21

So the focus really is on sharing journeys and using that as a platform to inspire

5:29

others and also to answer these fundamental questions that I've really become obsessed with.

5:36

It's a fascinating introduction and lots for us to delve into as we progress

5:41

through the episode today. Day interestingly i've worked in

5:46

in legal world a little bit myself and and

5:49

also in professional services and the transformation

5:55

that you have attempted to

5:58

put into that into that sector is fascinating and again i think we'll explore

6:03

a little bit deeper into that as we as we go through the episode but before

6:07

we do always start off with the one same question every podcast asked how do

6:12

you define transformation what how would you respond to that.

6:17

That is a big question. It's a big word. But it's one that, I mean,

6:21

it's always had positive connotations for me.

6:23

It's the grand metamorphosis of whether it's people, organizations,

6:28

and it's for the betterment of those organizations and those people.

6:34

It can lead to all sorts of improvements in efficiencies, operations.

6:40

It can be as drastic as breathing new life into a failing organization.

6:43

Organization it's it's something.

6:46

That it's bold and intentional it can mean

6:49

different things to different people and organizations but it's

6:52

most definitely exciting I think

6:55

you know looking at it in the in different contexts

6:58

whether it's in business individuals looking at

7:01

it in a really big context the most exciting transformation for

7:05

me at the moment is what's happening

7:08

in our world the fact that we can

7:11

connect on the subject of vision

7:14

on purpose and we can do that in a

7:17

global scale is is the most fascinating

7:20

transformation that I think is happening because it's

7:23

impacting business how we do business is

7:26

impacting how we connect with each other you know

7:29

if I and I've described my journey to some

7:32

extent but it really mirrors the fact that I'm not bound

7:35

by jurisdiction anymore because I'm not in the sort of

7:39

deep down lawyering I am

7:42

in a place where I can share those concepts and look

7:45

at the social impact that I'm having and we and we all

7:48

can it's providing that that globalized view

7:51

in a way where the old the old

7:54

rules applicable to business to people to how we communicate they don't have

8:00

to apply in our sort of current world of this you know democratization of ideas

8:05

and concepts and I think that's incredibly exciting and it bleeds into every

8:12

area of what we're doing. It's interesting that you say the fact that you took that approach into probably

8:20

one of the most traditional industries out there, law,

8:26

and started on that transformation journey at a very early age.

8:31

Change as as i think i

8:34

think is really inspirational in so much

8:37

that you've looked at something and said actually that's

8:40

not what i want to do that's not how

8:43

i see the future but instead of stepping sitting

8:47

back and letting things happen you've actually moved into

8:50

it you've leaned into it and and tried to drive

8:53

that change from within you you say

8:56

something on your linkedin profile that you are passionate about challenging

9:00

the status quo and it's it sounds like you've done that all the way through

9:05

your career where does that come from where did that what that sort of challenging

9:10

mindset come from was that something that you've always had or.

9:15

Just it'd be interesting just to explore the background to that that sort of mindset which,

9:22

Lots of people might have the feeling that things need to change,

9:26

but it's one thing having the thoughts of needing to change,

9:30

but then actually leaning into it and doing something about it.

9:33

That's where you differ. Yeah, I mean, if I look at my background, I've had a very entrepreneurial influence from my parents.

9:42

My dad came to the country from Cyprus, and he obviously tiny islands,

9:48

and he did various jobs. But during my childhood, we lived through them owning

9:55

a fish and chip shop, a hairdressing shop.

9:57

And we were all part of that journey, the highs and the lows.

10:00

They didn't hide much from us. And that was anxiety-inducing at some points, but it was a great learning journey.

10:07

And also, all of the experiences that we had, one of the – so I've developed

10:15

a leadership lesson series. series, and that really is about applying life lessons.

10:22

We've all got this incredible bank of wisdom, and that can come from all of

10:25

our past experiences, our journeys, and that's what leads to a diversity in journey and wisdom.

10:31

The knowledge of the job and the technical, we can acquire that.

10:34

I don't think I learned that much from law school. My learning really, from that professional technical point of view,

10:43

started from day one of being in the workforce and interacting interacting

10:45

with people but that notion of

10:48

how do we how do we serve clients go

10:51

above and beyond that commerciality that entrepreneurialism was all things that

10:56

I bought from my childhood growing up yeah I'd had little you know I'd had jobs

11:00

I had holiday jobs I worked in I worked in loads of places I worked my dad's

11:04

hairdressing shop in a place Virgin used to have a bridal store I was I was there.

11:09

I worked in banks, you know, so many different jobs.

11:13

But the first leadership lessons that I wrote from the series was called Leadership

11:20

Lessons from a Greek Cypriot Kitchen. And that was about applying the principles of hospitality to work and leadership.

11:28

And as I thought about, I really went through the visual of a Sunday morning at my house.

11:33

And that involved this team effort, which was myself and my older sisters all preparing this.

11:39

Massive meal because we would have loads of people around our house on most

11:43

weekends so there was this preparation you know one of us is chopping onions

11:47

the other one's folding napkins the other one's stirring the bechamel sauce

11:51

mum's in charge and this was all with the view of really presenting.

11:56

Best version of our home to the guests that were coming to our house on a Sunday

11:59

so I'm reflecting on that it was really important to us how those people felt

12:05

when they came to our our homes.

12:07

And it's a great visual to explain how I felt when I went into the workforce.

12:14

I understood immediately the concept of client service.

12:18

And that's going above and beyond. If they were coming to my home,

12:22

which was the office at that time, we were having a meeting,

12:26

I would go above and beyond. I would go above and beyond when I was providing legal services.

12:31

And that wasn't just about explaining the law to them, fighting the discrimination,

12:35

dismissed all unfair dismissal cases, whistleblown, whatever it was.

12:38

That was more about the holistic service that I was providing.

12:43

And law, particularly back then,

12:46

that that notion that it's a profession and

12:49

you're an officer of the court people can misinterpret

12:52

that to say no we're kind of above that

12:55

you know some people regarded the going out to get your clients

12:58

that that talking about the client service

13:01

and the importance of it as being almost beneath us and I

13:05

never understood that I immediately wanted

13:09

to apply that full service to clients and I wanted

13:11

to serve them in the way that my family and

13:14

I had served those those Sunday guests and it's

13:18

difficult to teach and explain that

13:21

and that's why it's so important that

13:25

we bring that diversity of experience with us into the workplace and we don't

13:30

have such a stark division between what we regard in our personal life and our

13:35

professional life you know that we We use one platform to enhance and enrich the other.

13:42

And there are so many life lessons that we can take. And that's what I say when

13:46

I speak to Gen Zers at universities.

13:49

That's one of the things that I say. I go into the detail of these stories.

13:54

I did the leadership lessons from Italian pizzeria in Naples,

13:58

which was all about balancing innovation and tradition.

14:02

The fact that you don't have to be shackled by what's come before.

14:05

You can use it to enrich your experiences going forward and to innovate,

14:11

to make those new pizza bases and to open the new pizza stands in New York.

14:16

And that was, you know, when talking to Gen Zers or people that have never occupied

14:20

a boss position, it's to say you can use all those lessons.

14:24

You can use all of that wisdom to understand what's needed and what's applicable

14:29

to work, to leadership, to how to treat other people.

14:35

And that's more important than ever now in the world that we're in and the world that we're going into.

14:42

And that's why I talk about it in the context of future workforce.

14:46

And I think, again, a key message there is around the skill of storytelling

14:54

and the real benefit of positioning what you're trying to do in a story.

15:01

Because fundamentally, all we're trying to do when we go through any organizational

15:05

change is to take people on a journey.

15:08

And if we can position that journey around a story and get people engaged in that story,

15:17

people are much more likely to come on the journey with us and lean into that

15:23

change as opposed to leaning back and feeling that change is being done to them.

15:30

That storytelling approach is a proven way of taking people on a journey.

15:36

Really yeah that it you know

15:39

i i love simon cynic and i love all of his theories around

15:42

around the why but as you say it's it's

15:46

so it's so incredibly important to take people

15:49

on that journey and again again related back

15:52

to the the subject matter of the of the podcast you look

15:55

at the the components the ingredients of any successful

15:58

transformation one of them has got to be

16:01

the why the taking people on

16:04

the journey and that's not just aligning the

16:07

critical people in organization to the transformation effort but

16:11

it's really explaining the journey why do we

16:14

need to do things differently and why is it so important you

16:18

know it's not it's not just outcome the outcomes

16:21

driven it's you're taking people on on

16:24

that journey and that all of

16:27

the things that you know know we're talking about in terms

16:30

of the life lessons it's really about people feeling a belonging and

16:33

having that notion that you

16:36

know they have that personal stake in in the success and

16:39

the well-being of any organization and as i say that that is more more important

16:45

than than ever all of the concepts that i've as i became obsessed with these

16:51

questions that i've mentioned before the the future workforce and the how do

16:56

we feel invigorated and significant work work.

16:58

Because I realized that all the concepts I was coming up with were in answer to those questions.

17:05

It was almost a reverse of how you're meant to ask the question and then answer.

17:09

I was kind of answering and then figuring out what questions I was trying to answer.

17:13

Why is it so important that we work with agency and autonomy and that we look

17:18

to architect our own roles? Why is it that we lean into our, it's so important that we work outside of our

17:25

comfort zone, and that we lean into what I call our preferred discomfort because

17:29

that leads to that growth and that invigoration and that's why we need to keep

17:33

things changing and fresh. Why is it important that we have that multilingual adaptable response to every

17:43

issue that comes up to work and to leadership so that we can be understood by

17:49

people that are from different backgrounds and so that we can figure out what type of leader,

17:54

what type of innovator what type of disruptor do we want to be try

17:57

on those different different hats i mean

18:00

it's all of those all of.

18:03

Those criteria are crucial for the

18:06

world that we're in today and align with how

18:10

we need to apply ourselves to any

18:13

kind of change or transformation information so

18:17

so nikki it's interesting when you were saying about the

18:21

whole concept of taking people

18:25

on the journey being clear about the why yeah and

18:28

and as you say that emphasis of allowing

18:33

people within your team to lean in and be

18:36

innovative and come up with ideas and try different

18:39

things a lot of people in

18:42

bigger organizations in particular especially when

18:46

they are younger or less experienced probably

18:50

have a fear of taking the

18:54

initiative because they'll probably get slapped down because the old style approach

18:59

going right back to start of your journey in that law firm which will be really

19:07

i'm I suspect it's a very traditional mindset,

19:11

very traditional law firm sort of environment.

19:15

You leaning in, saying you want to do things differently.

19:19

I'm assuming, again, it's probably wrong to assume, but I'm assuming that it

19:23

wasn't, oh, yes, of course, Nicky, you come in and do whatever you want.

19:26

There would have been some resistance. So what type of resistance did you face and how did you overcome that to allow

19:34

you to move forward? I think that's a real key lesson that people can apply in every organisation.

19:42

Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right, I'd assume, and you've clearly got knowledge

19:47

of the conventional legal world that I came from.

19:50

And there was resistance from, particularly from some of the partners.

19:54

I went in as a younger lawyer and, you know, it was all about how much experience have you got?

19:58

Because that was meant to dictate the hierarchical structure,

20:02

who you're answerable to. And what you did, this is what you're supposed to be at three years qualification.

20:07

This is what you're supposed to be at five years qualification.

20:09

I'm so against that notion. and I always was.

20:12

So some of the resistance was, no, these are my clients. I need to hug them tight.

20:18

These are my, this is my sort of currency. If I, if I go anywhere in the world

20:23

and because part of it was, look, I, I need to tap into that because we can

20:29

provide them with employment, work for services, as well as commercial,

20:33

as well as property, all of those things can help,

20:36

help the a client and there was such archaic

20:40

processes going on you know one of the things I've spoken

20:43

about at length were these we you know

20:47

the the requirement to network and build business was part of my job from day

20:51

one because of the building of these departments but then there were even they

20:55

didn't call them this but there were male only events where you know we had

20:59

we We used to go to various sporting events, rugby, horse racing.

21:05

And there was one event that was only attended by men.

21:10

And when you looked at the list of CEOs, you know, organization owners who were

21:18

attending, they were all the decision makers. So...

21:22

I approached it with a very business-like view, but also, you know,

21:27

with the background notion, this is completely unfair.

21:30

It's frankly discriminatory. But I approached it with the notion that actually

21:35

I'm here to build business and therefore I need to attend those events.

21:42

I also wanted to pave the way for other women to attend and I succeeded in doing that.

21:47

But it was done in a very practical very very

21:50

sort of in my daily business way but

21:53

i have to mention also that although it was

21:56

met with that resistance i was working collaboratively with

22:01

whatever practice i was at in order to align

22:04

it with the the company's vision and i was very fortunate in that i was given

22:11

the space to do that i had put the business plan on the table I had put forward

22:17

the arguments and the reasoning for why this would enrich the firm,

22:22

but I was given that space. And I think when we're looking at different organizations and how they support people,

22:31

it's so important that, you know, and I think now more than ever,

22:37

there is lots around this.

22:40

The importance of building those values that bind people together. However.

22:45

That's important, our high-level point of view. And also the actionable principles that underpin that.

22:51

Because the stronger those pillars, if you understand those pillars and you

22:56

understand the values, the more people feel comfortable to maneuver within those pillars.

23:02

So if you understand the direction of the company, if you look at the massive

23:06

companies, the Googles, the Amazons, Google.

23:10

For instance, that the the main one of the actual principles

23:13

is that the user comes first and the rest will

23:16

follow you can see the direction that that's taken they've got

23:19

brilliant web-based products but with any organization it's

23:23

important to to ascertain what are the values what are the principles and then

23:29

to feel free within those principles to act with innovation to to go forward

23:37

And to look at your job role, how can I tweak that?

23:40

How can I change that to align with those things?

23:45

I mean, there are, of course, organizations that are better than others in building

23:50

mechanisms, even in that sort of very, very rigid way to engender that type of culture.

23:57

Again, looking at those big companies, the Googles, the Amazons,

24:03

all of those build into their daily practices.

24:07

They embed those transformation principles from the time that they recruit people

24:12

to how they remunerate them to performance evaluation.

24:14

And it's full circle that those mechanisms build that culture.

24:19

But for anyone going into any organization, it's important to look at what's

24:25

there, what are the pillars, and how can I fit in, how can I build my diverse

24:31

wisdom, experience, journey, skills.

24:34

Character traits to complement all of those things and to collaborate and to

24:41

be very clear about how that enriches both themselves and the organization.

24:47

Yeah, I think that's the key message there, isn't it?

24:50

It's what you did very effectively is challenge the status quo,

24:56

absolutely, but you did it through the lens of the partners.

25:01

So what's in it for the partner? What are they looking for? What would they

25:06

want from their client relationships?

25:09

Can I help them to get what they want?

25:13

And I think that's a key message. If you're driving transformation,

25:17

when you're engaging with critical stakeholders,

25:21

get a real understanding of what's important to them and look through whatever

25:26

you're trying to do through their lens. And it's really insightful.

25:30

And you can just tailor messages or tailor approaches to fit in to their lens.

25:38

And they become a supporter in Africa and push you along.

25:43

Long, where initially, if you don't do that, and where there's initial resistance,

25:48

if you don't do that, and you just keep pushing a message, a one size fits all

25:53

message, all too often, you just end up getting a lot more resistance.

25:58

I mean, in the end, what's a company? It's a collection of individuals.

26:04

So if those individuals are invigorated and they're engaged,

26:08

then that can only lead to a more successful organization.

26:13

You know, I don't normally quote neuroscience because I've got no business doing that.

26:18

I'm not qualified in any way. but there is like

26:21

i came across this this study i heard it

26:24

in a podcast and i and i want to get i haven't read her

26:27

book yet tally show out dr tally short she's a

26:29

neuroscientist and she was looking at how i

26:33

think the study was how do you elicit joy you know

26:36

what creates happiness from people and they

26:39

they did this study they questioned loads of people and number.

26:43

Number one on the the list was purpose the why

26:46

of doing something is is integral number two was

26:50

was that that change the importance.

26:53

Of forward motion change that.

26:57

That leads to invigoration joy i think

27:01

social connection was quite high up and income.

27:04

Was actually quite low so if you if

27:07

you take that as a as an organization you

27:10

know i think people are more in

27:13

tune than ever and organizations are that the

27:16

people are not you know we're beyond the realms of

27:19

everyone wanting the same upward trajectory the same career

27:22

path so you need to work with

27:25

people to figure out where do they want to go and

27:28

how does that benefit the organization is it

27:31

a sideways move how can we enable and enhance enhance their

27:34

learning and development and how can

27:37

we create an environment a safe to fail environment where

27:40

we support them in leaning into

27:43

those preferred discomforts because

27:46

that again that that actually breeds a

27:49

wider collective adaptability type

27:53

of culture and that's what you want and that's what

27:56

you need in this we're in a

27:58

we're in a an era of volatility is

28:01

the only only way I can describe it it's the

28:05

pace of change I could see is quicker

28:07

than ever I mean I I talk about things two weeks ago I look

28:11

at things I've spoken about two weeks ago and they feel they already feel outdated

28:15

a fortnight later because I've had conversations I've spoken to people I've

28:19

gone out into the world I've I've done business and I've and I'm constantly

28:23

updating who knows what I'll be speaking about and you know by the by the end

28:27

of the year the the pace of change is so quick.

28:30

And that's in every respect.

28:32

I looked at a study the other day. Yeah, it was a McKinsey study.

28:37

And I posted about this. It said that by 2030, one in 16 people will have to

28:48

shift their occupations globally. One is 16 people because their job roles would have become obsolete.

28:56

So that study looked at the quiet hiring that's going on, as in the matrix of

29:03

skills that organizations are looking at, as opposed to the matrix of job titles,

29:08

job roles, matrix of skills and character traits that are going to be transferable to different roles.

29:16

So it's so important that we change that perception of fixed job role and that

29:25

we develop those tools of adaptability,

29:30

working outside our comfort zone and being multilingual in our approach to things.

29:37

And that organisations support people to do that. Otherwise, where is it going to go?

29:43

Because people might be able to adapt to those different environments.

29:48

And if I look at my own background in a very conventional way.

29:55

All of those things have only served me well.

29:58

Those peripheral skills, those peripheral character traits are now central to

30:04

what I'm doing and to what people will be doing.

30:07

You know so that's the that's the gold dust

30:10

that we shouldn't miss out on i don't have

30:13

the stats to hand but that's something

30:17

i read probably about three or four years ago now so it

30:20

matters that a day but then it was

30:23

saying i think it was something like 40 percent of the jobs back at the point

30:27

so this would probably be about 2021 2020 something like that it's like 40 percent

30:36

of jobs that people are working at that point didn't exist 20 years previously.

30:41

And if you think about the rate and the speed of change since then,

30:46

you know, you fast forward five years, a big proportion of jobs that we'll all

30:51

be doing in five years time don't exist at the moment.

30:54

And having that mindset that actually, yes, we're in this environment of constant

30:59

change, constant change, you can react in two ways.

31:04

You can be afraid by it and and step back or you can lean into it and see the

31:10

opportunities that that change is going to create and it's a mindset and and

31:14

i think to be fair a lot of the younger.

31:18

Population has got that mindset they don't they're not looking for life anymore,

31:23

let's look at the opportunities and take advantage of those

31:26

opportunities as they now as they stand now but there

31:29

is this sort of crossover isn't there between the the generations

31:32

generations where a lot of the people that

31:35

are older are leading organizations are

31:39

of that fixed mindset where a lot of

31:42

the new entrants coming into the organizations are of that growth mindset and

31:47

there's a clash and often i think of the next well probably the next five certainly

31:53

next certainly five maybe up to 10 years that clash is just going to get bigger

31:58

and bigger and bigger And the people that can adapt,

32:02

the people that can change, the people that can embrace those opportunities will thrive.

32:09

Yeah, no doubt. There's lots wrong in the world, but I'm incredibly optimistic about what we

32:18

can learn, how we can change, what we can learn from the younger generation.

32:24

I i happen to to attend

32:27

a leadership dialogue roundtable about multi-generate

32:31

multi-generational leadership and this

32:34

was this is part of a an organization called common purpose i

32:38

went to mumbai with them in last june

32:41

to address the the question how how

32:44

are we going to get the workforce of the future and i'm

32:47

now part of their their advisory group for london so we

32:50

had this conversation about multi-generational leadership and

32:53

one of that came out of that was what what

32:57

can we learn from this fantastic mindset that

33:00

the that the younger generation have I mean there's lots

33:03

of there's lots of criticism around it loads of stereotypical assumptions

33:07

but I I you know what I what I've spoken to universities one of the things that

33:13

I say is you know I I feel like I've I've always had a Gen Z head on my aging

33:20

shoulders because in whatever world I was in.

33:26

I wanted to, I wanted to, I wanted to disrupt and I wanted to innovate and how

33:32

lucky are you guys, because the world is ready for you to do that.

33:37

You know, people are, are open to that. Organizations are open to that.

33:42

They're seeking to engender that. So it's, it's a great, it's a great time for you and not to be,

33:50

not to feel bound by what they consider to be conventional industries.

33:55

I I mean, all of that will evolve, but, you know, going into the legal industry

33:59

now looks very different to what it did 20 years ago,

34:03

and there is no option other than for those industries and businesses to evolve.

34:08

Otherwise, they will be left behind. You know, it's not just looking at AI and technology and automation and the

34:16

pace with which that's moving and the fact that we really have to reshape and

34:20

organise things almost around that.

34:22

One of the most important thing we have to reshape is mindset that leads everything,

34:29

that leads operation, that leads how we engage people, that leads processes,

34:34

you know, all of those things have to work around the technology.

34:38

So it's, that's why I'm so focused on this because it's so important.

34:44

I feel it's my responsibility to, to share the journey I've,

34:50

I've been on. And I hate the term personal branding.

34:55

But actually it's what i'm doing i'm i'm

34:59

feeling that i want to share these

35:02

concepts and these ideas however i do it social

35:05

media podcasts out there and

35:08

speaking on stage and i think that it's it's so important that those with experience

35:14

those coming in fresh with new innovative ideas do that that we all share because

35:18

we go we don't know what's around the corner exactly no i think it It's a critical message, and I agree.

35:25

It is mindset, and it's mindset at every level within an organization.

35:30

And bringing it back to sort of the topic of the podcast about organizational transformation.

35:37

I always say, the first thing you've got to get when you're looking at a transformation

35:44

is absolute clarity around the vision or what I call the note to stand on.

35:50

What are we trying to move towards? But actually before then

35:55

you've got to get your mindset right you've got to get your

35:58

mindset that says actually yes we can take

36:02

advantage of these opportunities we can bring

36:05

all these ideas we can and help

36:08

people to embrace the concept of moving forward

36:12

all the things to really build up

36:15

momentum momentum within an organization that that

36:19

in many instances needs a mindset change so

36:22

i probably need to refresh by my approach to say it starts with mindset and

36:28

then help that mindset change will drive the drive forward a much clearer vision

36:35

that we can then start to build a business around and the operation and the transformation around,

36:40

Yeah, I mean, the starkest, yeah, I think you're not alone in sort of really

36:48

trying to rethink that process and the order of things and what drives what.

36:53

I mean, one of the starkest examples of that, I mentioned that I went to Mumbai

36:58

with a common purpose in June to address this issue, how are we going to shape

37:02

the workforce of the future? And Mumbai was such

37:06

an exciting classroom and it blew my

37:09

mind over the course of that week because oh

37:12

I was going to massive organizations from JLL

37:17

to Tata to government agencies to night

37:20

schools not-for-profit night schools for adults and

37:23

children who were working during the day and being educated at

37:26

night there was a national unity in

37:30

everyone's vision and approach because

37:33

you know the demographic the demographic is

37:36

different from some other demographic is there

37:39

there are a lot of young people so those resources being pumped

37:43

into education and bridging that gap between

37:46

education and skills and work but that

37:49

that unified energy of we

37:53

want to move forward we want to progress we want to be an economic

37:56

superpower we're ready to work

37:59

and to drive towards that what does it take and what does that mean there was

38:04

that unity which transcended everything else that was underpinned by people

38:10

speaking about wanting to work with ownership and agency wanted to craft their

38:14

own job roles wanting to be innovative and experimental in in their approach, young.

38:19

Old, junior, senior, whatever the hierarchical structure.

38:24

Everyone was saying that, but they were unified by this, I'll call it a common

38:29

purpose, which is the name of that not-for-profit organization.

38:33

And that was so impactful. I was re-energized by that to no And I came back

38:41

really wanting to not forget that feeling and that messaging.

38:47

It's so important that we look at how are we unified,

38:53

but how can we bring ourselves and our individuality to that journey so that

39:00

we all feel that personal state,

39:03

but that we're all working collaboratively and together to get to where we're going.

39:08

Yeah and and ultimately if you can within an organization if you can breed that

39:14

type of environment that type of culture performance is going to go through

39:19

the roof because everybody wants to make an impact if you can position people

39:23

in a role where they feel that they can.

39:26

Enjoy that they they feel that they can make an impact

39:29

that they they feel that they can lean into they will

39:32

perform much higher than if you put them in a role that they're

39:35

not suitable for basic stuff but how

39:38

many times when you look at an organization the wrong.

39:42

People are in the wrong roles and it's

39:46

so basic but yeah it's i suppose that's.

39:50

What gives us the opportunities to go in and help organizations change.

39:53

And transform if everyone was perfect they wouldn't.

39:56

Need us would they but yeah i mean

39:59

i mean you know change we we talk about it

40:02

like it's this thing that we we just we just do and it's

40:05

you know it's difficult it's not easy and

40:08

I believe that we all have an appetite for for

40:11

change for this for this preferred discomfort that I'm

40:14

talking about this this intentional drive to change

40:17

things for the betterment of things and to lead to

40:21

lead to something better and to grow and to progress to evolve

40:24

I think we all have an appetite for that and you

40:28

know but but that that's not to say it's not without

40:30

its challenges but if you are supported

40:34

and if you have this culture of

40:36

collective adaptability you start

40:40

to let go of these barriers these shackles i

40:43

mean there's been so many in in my own journey where

40:46

i've really struggled i really struggled for example in

40:49

in letting go and i want to refer to myself as a

40:52

control freak exactly but that notion of

40:56

empowering others meant that I had

40:59

to let go and get out the way a bit and to

41:02

do that I really had to have a word with myself and

41:05

to look at what's going to benefit the organization what's going to enable other

41:10

people's journeys and once and once you do that you grow as an individual everyone

41:16

else grows because you're not in the way and they feel the the freedom and the

41:20

space to put themselves into it. No one likes being told what to do.

41:25

So if you can create a safe environment for people to grow and do that,

41:31

it's so beneficial for everyone concerned.

41:36

And that's one of the examples of a difficult change that we can,

41:42

I think that a lot of us can relate to.

41:46

It's one of the practices that I list when I think, how can we exercise these

41:52

preferred discomforts? We talk about facing fears.

41:56

We talk about, you know, and the other thing of letting go from your knowledge

42:01

area even, not needing to be the perennial expert in everything that you do.

42:06

And that resonates, you know, when I'm stepping away, when I'm looking at how

42:13

can I answer these big questions that I've put forward, these about future workforce,

42:18

about how we can have significance from work.

42:20

That means really delving into a different area.

42:25

I have all the legal knowledge, but it's delving into looking to the future

42:30

and also So showing some vulnerability in using examples from my own journey,

42:36

which I would have had difficulty in doing that five years ago,

42:40

but it's led to growth and it's led to that, you know, having that impact on

42:46

other people and leading in a different way.

42:49

It's interesting coming back to what you were just saying about stepping back

42:53

and allowing the team the freedom to develop in the way that they want to develop.

42:58

And it takes me back back right back to

43:01

the very first episode and of of

43:04

the transformation leaders podcast and christoph who

43:07

was who was the very first guest talked about

43:10

the concept of focusing on outcomes not

43:13

outputs a lot of lead will say

43:17

okay we want you to do this is this is your job and

43:20

this is how you do it so very focused on outputs and

43:24

it's like well no let's forget about how you don't go about it what we want

43:29

from you is this outcome yeah and now get to that outcome it's completely up

43:34

to you within boundaries obviously but breaking the boundaries but being really

43:39

clear on the outcomes is the way you can really.

43:45

Drive massive performance improvements, massive impact upon the individual's

43:51

abilities and experiences and confidence to really achieve massive amounts of uplift in performance.

44:00

But all too often, people focus on their outputs, not outcomes.

44:03

We tend to finish all of the episodes with one final question,

44:09

and it's, what's your non-negotiable?

44:12

What's the one sort of takeaway that you

44:15

want people to leave with with from from

44:18

this episode i think you know we've touched

44:21

on a number of times but it is that it is

44:24

that the importance of of ownership and

44:27

agency it's referred to as the ownership culture but it's me really to cover

44:32

everything that we've spoken about that importance of creating space even if

44:38

it's There's microspaces for people to exercise and bring to the table all of

44:44

their individual experiences,

44:47

their wisdoms, all of that diversity and journey.

44:51

It's important to align that, as I've mentioned before, with the goals of the

44:55

organizations and their visions with those of the organization.

44:59

And however we cultivate that, we need, and I suggest values,

45:05

principles, building those those mechanisms, those embedding,

45:08

those transformative principles within the day-to-day.

45:11

All of that is so important. That's what will drive people forward.

45:15

And that aligns directly with the main components of successful transformation.

45:24

Brilliant way to end the podcast. Thank you very much, Nikki,

45:27

for your time and your insights. And if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way of contacting you?

45:35

Thanks so much for having me, Tony, first of all. Thank you.

45:38

I've loved that conversation over the last, however long that's been, that flew past.

45:43

I think it's been 50 minutes or so, but this is a massive topic.

45:48

So I was really excited to come on. So my website is just Nikki Avram.

45:54

Nikki with one k n-i-k-i avram.com and

45:58

that's really where i live that's my home that's that's

46:02

where people can come and find me for keynote speaking engagements or

46:05

the workshops that i run around those main

46:08

pillars some of which we've touched upon but bring in

46:11

the the life lessons the ownership culture the preferred

46:14

discomforts and the importance of being agile as

46:17

opposed to rigid and being multilingual in our approach to work

46:20

and leadership but that's that's all to be be found

46:23

there and also on the main the main social media platforms i'm

46:26

on linkedin and instagram mainly brilliant well

46:30

thank you very much thank you tony thanks nikki what a fascinating conversation

46:35

the time just flew by please do leave a comment and subscribe so that you can

46:42

be the first to know of future episodes that we'll be releasing in the next

46:46

few weeks thanks for listening.

46:49

Music.